The Dark Story Before the Odyssey

Summary

Camp Gagnon Podcast Summary

Episode: The Dark Story Before the Odyssey
Host: Mark Gagnon
Guest: Miles McCreary
Date: July 22, 2026

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Overview: Main Theme

This episode of Camp Gagnon’s "History Camp" dives deep into the Iliad, the epic Greek poem often overshadowed by its more cinematic retellings and its sequel, the Odyssey. Mark Gagnon and guest Miles McCreary set out to clear up misconceptions, distinguish the Iliad from the Odyssey, and guide listeners through the original story—its structure, history, and enduring relevance. The tone is lively, approachable, humorous, and reverent towards the poem’s complexity, making ancient history accessible and engaging.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What the Iliad Actually Is (02:58–06:45)

• Misconceptions Addressed:
  • Contrary to popular belief, the Iliad does not depict the Trojan Horse, the burning of Troy, or the entire Trojan War.
  • “The Iliad is a story about the war in Troy. The Odyssey is the journey home from that war.” – Mark (04:38)
• Content and Structure:
  • Focused on a 7-week period in the ninth year of the Trojan War, centered around the rage of Achilles.
  • Written as a 15,700-line epic poem, divided into 24 books.
• Oral Tradition:
  • Passed down orally for centuries, only written down around 750–700 BC.
  • Attributed to Homer, but his historical existence is uncertain.

2. Historical & Cultural Impact (08:23–10:14)

• Cultural Reverence:
  • The Iliad was integral to Greek and Roman identity—used as a learning tool and moral benchmark.
  • Alexander the Great famously kept a copy under his pillow.
  • The founding myth of Rome (the Aeneid) traces lineage to a Trojan prince.
  • “Grown men, measured themselves against the heroes of the story.” – Mark (08:32)
• Debate about Troy’s Reality:
  • Real or not, Troy’s myth mattered more, but archaeological digs reveal possible historic links.

3. Origin Story: The Cause of the War (10:51–13:15)

• The Mythical Beauty Contest:
  • The Trojan War starts with Eris, goddess of Discord, sparking a divine beauty contest involving Hera, Athena, and Aphrodite.
  • Paris, a Trojan prince, is bribed by the goddesses; he chooses Aphrodite’s offer—the world’s most beautiful woman, Helen, who is already married to Menelaus of Sparta.
  • “It started with a beauty contest, a golden apple, and, of course, a kidnapped woman.” – Mark (10:56)
• The Greek Alliance:
  • Menelaus’s call to arms unites Greek warlords—including Achilles and Odysseus—against Troy.

4. Central Conflict: Achilles’ Rage (17:08–24:09)

• Honor and Disrespect:
  • Achilles withdraws from battle after Agamemnon publicly strips him of his prize (the captive Briseis), exposing the Greek code of honor.
  • Achilles calls upon his mother Thetis to have Zeus favor the Trojans to show the Greeks how much they need him.
  • “He prays for his own side to be beaten. After nine years of a siege, that's crazy petty.” – Mark (17:41)
• The Role of the Gods:
  • The gods intervene constantly, escalating the conflict, and their human pettiness drives mortal events.

5. The Iliad’s Major Plot Beats (24:12–32:24)

• Duels and Defeats:
  • Paris faces Menelaus—a near-resolution, foiled by divine intervention.
  • The gods take sides, with epic scenes like Diomedes injuring divine beings.
• Humanizing Moments:
  • Hector’s farewell to his wife Andromache and son—depicted as heartbreakingly real (28:48).
  • “He takes the helmet off and he sets it on the ground and he holds the boy, praying that the child will one day be a greater man than his father.” – Mark (28:39)
• Patroclus’ Death and Achilles’ Return:
  • Achilles’ closest companion Patroclus dies in Achilles’ armor, spurring Achilles’ return to the battlefield in a grief-driven rampage.
  • Achilles’ new armor, especially his shield, is poetic—a microcosm of the human world’s joys and sorrows.
• Hector’s Death:
  • Achilles kills Hector after an epic chase, desecrates his corpse in his rage.
  • Key quote: “He wishes his rage would drive him to carve Hector's flesh and eat it raw.” – Mark (31:19)

6. Resolution and The Poem’s True Ending (32:25–34:21)

• Grief and Mercy:
  • King Priam bravely asks Achilles for his son’s body; both men weep together, united in loss.
  • “I’ve done what no man on earth has done. Kiss the hands of the man who killed my son.” – as spoken by Priam; Mark (32:37)
• Not the End You Expect:
  • The Iliad closes with Hector’s funeral, not the fall of Troy or Achilles’ death.

7. Why The Iliad Matters Today (34:22–42:19)

• Timeless Human Themes:
  • The core of the story is not war or gods, but emotions: pride, rage, loss, vengeance, honor, and mercy.
  • “What you have left is a very human story…” – Mark (33:54)
• Relatability:
  • The hosts connect the ancient drama to modern feelings of rivalry, disrespect, grief, and irrational choices driven by emotion.
  • “There’s been, like, true crime documentaries on Netflix…about that same exact feeling.” – Mark (34:58)
• Youth, Ego, and Parental Advice:
  • Achilles, Hector, Patroclus are all likely young, acting headstrong and impulsive—while elders warn in vain.
  • “Nothing is more headstrong than just like an 18-year-old with a vendetta.” – Miles (36:21)
• The Role of Prophecy:
  • Discusses prophecies as both a literary device and a real psychological force, paralleling Harry Potter, family lore, and the Kennedys.
  • “If you believed in prophecies and were given one… I don't know how it would live.” – Miles (40:14)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [04:38] Mark: “The Iliad is a story about the war in Troy. The Odyssey is the journey home from that war.”
• [08:32] Mark: "Grown men, measured themselves against the heroes of the story."
• [10:56] Mark: "It started with a beauty contest, a golden apple, and, of course, a kidnapped woman."
• [17:41] Mark: "He prays for his own side to be beaten. After nine years of a siege, that's crazy petty."
• [28:39] Mark (on Hector and his son): “He takes the helmet off and he sets it on the ground and he holds the boy, praying that the child will one day be a greater man than his father.”
• [31:19] Mark (Achilles’ cruelty): "He wishes his rage would drive him to carve Hector's flesh and eat it raw."
• [32:37] Mark (Priam): "I’ve done what no man on earth has done. Kiss the hands of the man who killed my son."
• [33:54] Mark: "What you have left is a very human story."
• [34:58] Mark: “There’s been, like, true crime documentaries on Netflix…about that same exact feeling.”
• [36:21] Miles: “Nothing is more headstrong than just like an 18-year-old with a vendetta.”
• [40:14] Miles: "If you believed in prophecies and were given one… I don't know how it would live."

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Standout Segments & Timestamps

• [02:58–06:45] — Clearing up misconceptions; oral tradition and Homer.
• [08:23–10:14] — The Iliad’s role in ancient Greek and Roman culture.
• [10:51–13:15] — The mythological setup: The Judgement of Paris.
• [17:08–24:09] — Achilles' rage and gods’ constant meddling.
• [24:12–32:24] — Major story beats: duel, Patroclus’ death, grief, and vengeance.
• [32:25–34:21] — Achilles and Priam’s meeting; the poem’s real ending.
• [34:22–42:19] — Reflection on the Iliad’s enduring meaning, emotional depth, and relatable themes.

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Conclusion & Reflection

Mark and Miles conclude that what makes the Iliad endure is its raw humanity: pride, rage, grief, and the price of vengeance, played out in a mythic yet utterly relatable setting. The gods’ schemes may instigate events, but it’s the characters’ emotions—love, friendship, anger, and mercy—that drive the story and its resonance across nearly 3,000 years. Far more than an ancient war tale, the Iliad is a meditation on what it means to be human in the face of profound loss and fatal choices.

Final thought:
Mark invites listeners to reflect, share comments, and continue the discussion—promoting an open, insightful community around history's biggest stories.

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Explore Related Episodes:

• The Odyssey — for the aftermath of Troy and Odysseus’ journey home.
• Was Troy Real? — episode on the archaeological site.
• Religion Camp — for deep dives into ancient beliefs and lore.

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For further discussion, literary connections, or unique insights—join the conversation on YouTube and Spotify, and check out more from Camp Gagnon.

Transcript

[A]

A nine year war, a siege that just wouldn't break, a thousand ships, gods fighting and cheating behind the scenes. And the world's greatest warrior who refused to fight in it. Everybody thinks that they know the story of the Iliad, one of the oldest, most famous, most retold war stories in all of human history. But the truth is, the things you probably know about it, like the Trojan horse, the burning city, they're actually not even in the story. Yeah, the ancient epic, the precursor to the Odyssey, was sacred in entire civilizations. The Greeks learned to read with it, the Romans wrote themselves into it. And nearly 3,000 years later, we are still talking about it on movie screens, on bestseller lists, even on TikTok on this very podcast. And it turns out the fictional city itself of Troy, it might have actually been real after all. And today we are opening the book that almost nobody actually reads. We're going to walk through the journey of the Iliad step by step and attempt to answer one question. What is actually in this story? Story? And why is it still being told 3,000 years later? If you are interested in ancient Greek literature, if you have seen the Odyssey, or perhaps seen our recent episode that we did on the Odyssey, well, this is the episode for you. So sit back, relax, and welcome to History Camp. What's up, people? And welcome back to History Camp. My name is Mark Gagnon, and thank you so much for joining me in my tent where every single week we explore the most interesting, fascinating and controversial stories of from all history, from all time, forever. Yes. That is what we do here in this tent every single Wednesday is I try to figure out everything that's ever happened in history. And turns out there's a lot more stuff than I anticipate. I thought we're going to do like 50 episodes and call it a day, but there's all sorts of stuff happening all the time, and history is. It's getting made every day, so we have no time to waste. But before we jump in, I just want to say a few things. One, thank you to you. Yeah, dude. Or woman, or whoever you are, whatever your gender is, I don't really care. I want to say thanks for tuning in to the show. Every time you click on an episode or comment or like or really interact with our content at all, you tell the algorithm, hey, this is good content. You help the show grow, you help my dreams come true. And you keep the lights on in the tent and you keep the fire burning here at the campsite. I also want to give a big thanks to my good pal that's sitting right next to me. Christos. It's actually not Christos. No. Christos is still gallivanting around Greece with probably models and millions of dollars and doing all sorts of illicit activities. So, you know, instead we have my good pal Miles McCreary.

[B]

Bad news, everybody. I'm back.

[A]

You're back, but this time, I don't think you're going to be able to ruin it or destroy the episode. Not about anything, you know, like mystical or, you know, sort of out there. You know, it's grounded and just sort of just regular old history told in a fun way.

[B]

I do love the story, though, so I'm excited. Of the Iliad?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You've read it in the original Greek.

[B]

Yeah, in the original Greek. Christos read it to me.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

In between.

[A]

Christos has actually read both the Iliad and the Odyssey in the original Greek.

[B]

He read them to me in between gallivanting with women.

[A]

Good for him. Glad he took a break from. He's a nice guy from all of his debauchery. And I got my good pal Jaime over here, but he doesn't have a microphone, so he's just going to sit quietly and stare. Anyway, guys, we're talking about the Iliad. Now, you probably saw our episode on the Odyssey. It was a fascinating episode that went through. What actually is in the Odyssey. News flash. What you see in movies, what you get told in history class, maybe took like a literature class or something, like, freshman year of college, they go through the important stuff. They hit the big beats. You hear about the sirens and everything else, but what's actually in the text? And then even what's, like, under the surface, like the subtext of what they're actually really trying to say. What Homer's really trying to communicate is way more fascinating, way more nuanced, and often gets overlooked by literally everyone. So in the interest of doing the same thing here, that is what we're going to attempt to do. We're going to try to go through the actual beats of what the story of the Iliad is and why it is so important and what they're really trying to say. So if you know nothing about this great news, we have the Odyssey episode. You can check that out. We also did an episode breaking down the historical site of Troy, if that is such a thing. You can check that out also at the History Camp Channel. But for now, let me take you through what's important. Okay? We got to clear up a couple things once and for all, because there are two names that get tangled all the time. People will say, oh, yeah, the Iliad and the Odyssey, as if it's one thing, right? And you probably know that they're ancient, you know that they're Greek, and, you know, a guy named Homer wrote them. And if you're like most people that might be like all, you know, you know, well, today we're changing that because the whole relationship is way more interesting. And in one sentence, you can say this. The Iliad is a story about the war in Troy. The Odyssey is the journey home from that war. And both are super long. They are epic poems attributed to this guy Homer written somewhere like 8th century BC and it's really tough to know exactly when they're like fully, like, told for the first time, when they're actually written down. So, you know, roughly like 750 to 700 BC, though no one can really exactly pin down a date. So which one was composed first? Well, no one knows. There's no time stamp or, you know, like an ancient publishing record. Most scholars bet that the Iliad is older, but that's just kind of like a scholarly guess. But what we do know is the order of the story that they tell chronologically. The Iliad is first, and it takes place during the Trojan War. The Odyssey picks up after that war ends when Odysseus, the main character, spends 10 years trying to get home. Like I said, you can check out the entire episode on that. What surprised people the most about the Iliad is that it's actually not the whole story of the Trojan war. So the 10 years of siege, the thousands of ships, the wooden horse, the burning city. The actual poem covers almost none of that. Instead, it zooms in on about seven weeks, nine years into the siege. And it's actually really about one thing, and that is the rage age of Achilles, the deadliest warrior to ever live. And what happened when he decided to stop fighting. So you've probably seen pieces of this story before. So old Brad Pitt, old handsome Brad Pitt, 2004, the movie Troy, that's the Hollywood version of the Iliad, with the rest of the war kind of stapled on and the gods kind of deleted from the story. And then of course, the Song of Achilles, this is the novel that took over the Internet. And it's also the same story, but told from inside Achilles closest relationship. And then, not to mention, of course, Christopher Nolan has the Odyssey that is pulling in millions this summer. The Iliad as a precursor offers a lot of really helpful context to fully appreciate that story. But every one of Those versions trims and rearranges or kind of sands down the original poem. Because, of course, if you're going to make something for Hollywood, you got to just kind of focus on, you know, the really important kind of, you know, picturesque dramatic stuff. And you might leave out some of the other things that might not translate to screen so well, but are so fascinating. The real version is way crazier, way more intense and way more human in a lot of ways than anything that Hollywood is actually ever been able to put out. So for maybe the first time, we are going to do it properly from beginning to end, front to back, and go through what actually happens. But before we go to the story itself, we need to cover what it really is, where it came from, who wrote it, and how it wound up taking over the globe. So, like I said, the Iliad wasn't actually written. Not first, anyway. For centuries, the story was just purely told from human memory. It was performed and recited by professional bards who would basically tell the story for hours and hours at different feasts and festivals, generation after generation. And we go over a lot of detail, detail on how that sort of oral tradition kind of carries out in the second episode, the Odyssey episode that we did. But for our purposes now just know that the history of the Iliad is exactly the same. It wasn't written down until roughly 750 to 700 BC. So that's four, maybe five centuries after it was actually told for the first time, that it survived before it was really written down. And then the question is, who wrote it? Who told it for the first time? Who is this guy, Homer? Well, the short answer is, once again, we don't know. Tradition says that he was a blind poet from the Greek coast of Asia Minor, but there's no biography or grave or even any, like, tangible evidence that he was a real person outside of these literary feats. Again, we go through this in the Odyssey episode. Now, was any of this story.

[C]

Ouch. This knee is killing me. But I can't stop training. The marathon is in two weeks. Let's get on Zocdoc and find a doctor to take a look at that for you. Okay, Here's a review. Dr. Craddock really takes his time. No, I don't have time. What about Dr. Charles? His patients say he can help find a quick fix and he's in network. Great. Now we're talking. Book it booked. One mile down, 19 to go.

[A]

Bring it on.

[B]

You've got Options.

[A]

Download the ZocDoc app today. Actually, real, like, was the City of Troy, A real city. Was there an actual siege? Well, for most of modern history, the answer was no. But in the 1870s, a German businessman named Heinrich Schliemann, a guy who's obsessed with Homer since he was like a little kid, started digging around at a mound in Northwest Turkey called Hisarlach, and he found a city. Now, we did an entire episode on what he found and what was in the city, and also whether Troy was just a real place or not. And we'll get into the archeological findings and the skeptics positions on it, and you can find that all in the episode that we did on the actual archeology. But real or not, the truth about Troy is this. The Iliad became the closest thing that the ancient world had to a Bible. Greek kids learned how to read it like grown men, measured themselves against the heroes of the story. Even Alexander the Great carried a copy with him on his conquests. And according to the legend, he slept with it underneath his pillow. And then when we get to Rome, it goes even further. The Romans actually claimed that they descended from. From Troy, that a prince named Aeneas, who escaped from the burning city, which is told in Rome's national epic, the Aeneid. Yet the most powerful empire in history wrote itself into this poem's family tree. That's how important the story is. So if by the end of today you're curious enough to actually pick it up, what are you actually in for? Remember, it is a long poem. It's about 15,700 lines long. And it's not just one book. It's actually divided into 24 books. So that's like 400 to 600 pages in English, depending on the translation. It's not like a light read, so if you want, you could grab a modern translation. The Wilson translation is one of the more popular ones. And it will definitely give yourself a lot more accessibility and also some permission to skim it if you need. But if you don't want to do that, here's the good news. We're going to go through the whole thing in just a minute. But remember, the Iliad only tells about the last few days of the Trojan War. And again, it is centered on Achilles. The poem drops you into the war's final year, and it assumes that you already know how it started because the audience of the time was already aware of it. And the kind of like how you would know, like the plot of Star wars without really needing to see it, you kind of get the gist. But in our time, we actually need More of a setup. So before we go through the story that the poem tells itself, we're going to go through the backstory of what leads up to the Iliad. Like, what even is the Trojan War? Why did it start? Well, it started with a beauty contest, a golden apple, and, of course, a kidnapped woman. So the sea goddess Thetis is marrying a mortal king named Pelias, and every God is invited except for one, and that's Eris. This is the goddess of Discord, because who's going to invite the goddess of Discord to a wedding, right? Well, Eris shows up anyway and rolls a golden apple into the party. And inscribed on it are three words. It says, for the fairest. So three goddesses immediately see it, and they all claim it. They're like, oh, this is obviously for me. So, of course, you have Hera, the queen of the gods, Athena, the goddess of wisdom and war, and Ap. Aphrodite, the goddess of love. Now, Zeus, the most powerful being anywhere in the universe, absolutely refuses to answer the question of which of you is the prettiest. So instead, he outsources it to a mortal, a Trojan prince named Paris. Each goddess offers a different bribe to Paris, basically trying to curry favor to try to get the status of the most beautiful of everyone. Hera offers power. Athena offers glory in battle, and Aphrodite offers the most beautiful woman in the world. Miles, which one would you pick? Do you want. Do you want power, glory, or the most beautiful woman?

[B]

Yeah, beautiful.

[A]

Well, that's what Paris picks also. He picks Aphrodite. Now, one problem with this prize is that the most beautiful woman in the world, Helen is already married. And Helen is married to Menelaus, the king of Sparta. So Paris visits Sparta as a guest and leaves with the host's wife. Now, whether Helen ran off willingly or is taken, depending on, you know, it kind of depends on, like, which ancient source you use. The Greeks argued about this for centuries, even in their own time. Either way, Menelaus does not take it well. So he calls in his brother, this guy Agamemnon, and he is the most powerful king in all of Greece. And together, they summon every warlord and hero bound by all these old oaths to defend Helen's marriage. And the result of this is the largest coalition that the Greek world had ever imagined. So you have thousands and thousands of ships sailing east to a city on the coast of modern day Turkey. And in the town of Troy. What's up, guys? We're gonna take a break real quick because I want to tell you a little story. All right. I don't know if this is just what happens once you hit like your late 20s like I am, but I started noticing a bunch of little things that didn't seem connected, but they actually are. I would be tired and then somehow I'd be like awake all night. I'd have trouble falling asleep. I go to the gym and I don't recover like I did when I was 18. And it felt like I was doing everything right, but my body just wasn't responding the way that it did like five or 10 years ago. So I started looking into it and the one thing that kept on coming up is cortis. It's your body's stress hormone. And between like doing shows and podcasts and trying to be a dad and being on screens and doom scrolling all day, my stress level was just elevated all the time. And that is what led me to Mars.

[B]

Men.

[A]

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And after you pick up your Mars for Men, just tell them that Mark and Christos from the campsite sent you. Now let's get back to the show. Now, Troy is also called Ilium, which is where the name Iliad actually comes from. It literally just means the poem about Ilium, AKA Iliad. Now, among the Greeks on those ships are Odysseus, dragged into a war that he tried to dodge. And this is a story that we told in the Odyssey episode. And then there's another man. It's a young warrior named Achilles. Now, Achilles has a mother who is a goddess this is Thetis. And Thetis knows a terrible prophecy about her son, that if he goes to Troy, he will win glory that lasts forever, but he will never come home. Alternatively, if he stays home, he will live a long and happy life, but he will be forgotten by history. So Achilles has to make a choice. And he goes. The Greeks hit the beach of Troy expecting a very clean, fast war. But instead they get a siege that grinds on for nine brutal years. There's raiding and burning and dying on the sands while Troy's walls are remaining firm. And that is where the poem begins. So it starts in year nine, with the Greeks morale basically falling apart and the two greatest men in the Greek camp about to turn on each other over, you guessed it, a woman. When they do, more Greeks will die in those few weeks than they did in all nine years before. So the very first word of the Iliad is this rage. And then we immediately jump to see exactly where this rage is coming from. So the Greeks have spent years raiding towns around Troy. Among their captives is a girl named Chryseis, currently held by Agamemnon. Her father happens to be the priest of the God Apollo. And when he comes to the Greek camp with a ransom, begging for his daughter back, Agamemnon humiliates the old man and sends him away. Kind of rude, you know, not really a fair thing to do. He's just like, hey, can I have my daughter back? And Agamemnon's like, no, dude, what do you think this is? Turns out it's a terrible move because the priest, you know, literally is a priest of Apollo, prays to Apollo, and Apollo answers him by raining a plague down on the Greek camp for nine days. So you have men and animals dying, there's funerals burning around the clock, and then finally, Achilles calls an assembly during which a spiritual, like, clairvoyant, a seer, stands up and says the obvious. This is Agamemnon's fault and he needs to give the girl back. Agamemnon agrees, and he's like, fine, we'll stop the plague. I'll give this girl back, but on one condition. If he's forced to lose his prize, this beautiful girl, he's going to take someone else's. And just to make a point about, you know, him being in charge, he insists on taking Briseis. This is a captive woman who belongs to Achilles. What's going on? So to, like, modern readers, this sounds like two warlords basically fighting over women as property. And let me just tell you, yeah, that's that's what it is. But understand what it means. Inside the ancient world, prizes were representations of honor. So, like, you know, you win what you can hold and what you can touch. It's basically a trophy. And publicly stripping Achilles of this girl that is basically his in front of the entire army. Crazy, disrespectful. Agamemnon is basically, you know, like, disrespecting everything Achilles has bled for across these nine years of war. Now, Achilles is not just going to let Agamemnon, like, screw him over like that. So he actually goes and gets his sword. And Athena herself has to appear to Achilles and physically stop him from killing Agamemnon on the spot. So Achilles does something arguably worse. He walks. He pulls himself and his elite soldiers called the Myrmidaws, out of the war and sits down by his ships and says, you know what? You can have my girl. And I'm out. I'm done. Me and all my boys, we're not fighting. And then he even takes it a step further. He asks his mother, the goddess Thetis, for a favor. He asks her to get Zeus to actually make the Greeks lose. He says, yo, let them get slaughtered without me so that they realize and appreciate what they threw away. They want to disrespect me, they want to spit on my name, everything I've ever worked for. You can do that. You can take the girl. I'm out. Y' all are going to lose. He prays for his own side to be beaten. After nine years of a siege, that's crazy petty. And that is ultimately the rage of Achilles. And crazy enough Zeus says, yeah, Zeus is a God. And a lot like, you know, most of the Greek gods, they have a lot of human qualities. So Zeus is like, bro, I totally get it. They crazy. That was crazy disrespectful. So, yeah, we're going to make him lose. So at this point in the story, you have a massive war with thousands of ships, maybe the biggest war that the Greek world had ever seen. According to their milit mythology, that is all started from a guy taking another guy's wife, right? And now you have the start of the Iliad, basically kind of reenacting that exact same thing that you have the two greatest fighters on the Greek side in a massive dispute once again over taking another guy's wife. So what follows in the story is how the Greeks basically try to fight this war and win the siege without their greatest weapon, Achilles. And they reach, like, a pretty reasonable idea. They basically say, hey, hey, let's skip all the armies and all the fighting and just let the two men who actually started this whole thing settle it. Let's just get Paris vs Menelaus 1 on one, and the winner takes Helen, and we can all go home. And for about four minutes, the Trojan War almost ends. Menelaus completely wrecks Paris. He's dragging him off by the helmet to finish the job. And then suddenly, Aphrodite intervenes, snatches Paris off the battlefield, wraps him in mist and deposits him safely back in his bedroom. And Troy. And then a Trojan archer, nudged by the gods, breaks the truce with an arrow. And then the whole thing starts back over again. But even worse, because that's the other thing about the Iliad. The gods aren't just, like, sitting back and watching. They are actively playing in it. Because think about it. They're the ones that kind of started it, like, rolling the apple in and all these different goddesses basically fighting over it. Hera and Athena, they still hate Troy. Over the golden apple. Aphrodite and Apollo are backing the Trojans. They scheme and they cheat and they redirect spears mid flight. And then you have the Greek heroes, Diomedes, who actually wounds two of the gods in a single day, stabbing Aphrodite in the wrist and then sending Ares, the God of war himself, shrieking back to Mount Olympus. Now, just to zoom out the ancient audience, they loved this stuff. And honestly, I mean, so do I. It's, like, fun, like, history meets, like, mythology. And it's, like, kind of hard to tell, like, what's crazy and what isn't, because there's so much, like, human emotion that goes along with the story. You're like, that's how I would feel. And all of a sudden, a God comes down. You're like, well, I don't know how I'd feel in that case. But throughout all the bloodshed and all the fighting, and the poem keeps cutting away to small, quiet, like, really sad moments. And it really takes the time to focus on the people that are actually being affected by the war. So, for example, Hector, he's the crown prince of Troy and he's the greatest defender. And the poem is very clear about this. A better man than almost anyone else on either side. And at one point, between battles, he finds his wife, Andromache, and their baby son on the city walls, and she begs him to stay inside. Achilles has already killed her father and all seven of her brothers, but Hector tells her that he can't. Shame would kill him faster than any spear. And then he reaches for his son and the baby bursts into tears, terrified of the horsehair crest on his father's helmet. And Hector just kind of laughs. And he takes the helmet off and he sets it on the ground and he holds the boy, praying that the child will one day be a greater man than his father. It's a 2,700-year-old scene, and it's truly, really powerful. And it feels like it was almost written yesterday, like this father, son bond. And like a mother and a wife basically pleading for her husband to be safe and just to choose peace and then him choosing honor instead. Now, with Achilles still out, the tide turns hard against the Greeks. Zeus keeps his promise and the Trojans are trapped behind their walls for nine years. And then they finally come out. Hector leads them all the way down to the beach to the Greek ships themselves. And the Greeks get so desperate that Agamemnon swallows his pride and sends an embassy to Achilles. Tent, tent. Offering a fortune. He basically says, look, treasures, cities, you can have the girl back. Even his own daughter in marriage. And a blank check. If we can just settle this thing and call it off, let's just fight for us and we'll just call it a day. But Achilles says no. Because in that tent, he remembers the prophecy that his mother told him, the prophecy that says if he fights, he will die young. So the greatest warrior in history looks at the deal and decides that no treasure on earth is worth his life. And he announces, you know what? I'm going home. But the crazy part is he never makes it. Because Hector, charging down the beach, he sets all the Greek ships on fire. And that one person, the one person that Achilles loves more than anything, can no longer sit by and watch. It's Achilles best friend, Patroclus, and he's about to lose it. So Patroclus is Achilles oldest companion. They grew up together. They fought nine years side by side. And depending on which reader you ask across the last three millennia, they're either best friends or brothers, or according to some people, potentially even lovers. The ancient Greeks actually debated about this amongst themselves. But what nobody debates, though, is that Patroclus is one of the. He's the only human whose opinion Achilles actually cares about. So after all the ships burn, Patroclus reaches his limit. His men were dying by the hundreds. The ships were the only way out of there, and they're on fire. So he comes to Achilles in tears and he calls him out to his face. He says, hey, your rage and your ego, it's killing everyone. All of our friends, everything you've ever loved, we're all dying. And if you don't fight, at least let me wear your armor. Let the Trojans see it and think that you're back in the sight alone will make them panic and choke. And Achilles agrees on one condition. He says push them off the ships and then stop. Don't chase them to Troy. Don't try to be me. Like Achilles is literally like, look, I'm him, you're not him. So just put on the armor, scare them and then come back. Well, you can imagine how this goes. Patroclus in Achilles armor, he's unstoppable. Like he. It's like a like Mike situation. He puts on the helmet and all of a sudden he's feeling himself. The Trojans see the armor, they panic. Exactly how they drew it up. He drives them away from the ships, cuts a path across the plains, kills one of Zeus's own sons. And then he gets a little too confident and he does exactly what Achilles told him not to do. He charges the wall of Troy itself. The God Apollo personally steps in and stops him. He strikes him to the ground on the battlefield and knocks the armor off his body. A Trojan spearman wounds him and Hector finishes him off. When the news of his best friend's death reaches Achilles, according to the story, he lets out a scream so terrible that his goddess mother hears it at the bottom of the ocean. The poem says that he pours ashes over his head and he has to be physically restrained. That the rage that opened the poem, the rage against Agamemnon, dies on the spot and something way more powerful takes its place. And that's grief. That girl Briseis, the treasure, the grudge, like the disrespect that he faced by Agamemnon in front of all the soldiers. It doesn't matter anymore because now his best friend is dead and he wants revenge on Hector. Now his mother reminds him of the fine print in this prophecy. The prophecy says that Hector's death and Achilles death are linked. If Achilles kills Hector, his own death will come immediately after they're tied. It's like the Fates. They are connected cosmically. Now Achilles basically knows this and says, let it come, let it happen, who cares? Overnight, the God Hephaestus, the divine blacksmith, forges Achilles new armor, including a shield that is so intricate that people have written entire books just on Achilles shield. A whole world is hammered in metal. Cities at peace and cities at war. Weddings and harvests and dancing. And the poems. The poem telling about the shield. At this point in the story, it's really important. It's essentially one last picture of everything that life is. It is the totality of existence put into a single object strapped to the arm of a man about to leave everything behind. And what follows is maybe like the most intense or terrifying stretch of this entire poem. Achilles returns to battle less like a soldier and more like. Like a divine, like a. Like a natural disaster. He kills so many Trojans that a river God, Scamander, the river of Troy itself, rises out of the banks and, choked with the corpses, tries to drown him. So Achilles literally fights the river and the gods have to step in and save him. The Trojans flee back inside their walls. Well, all of them except one. Hector stands alone outside the gates. His parents are screaming from the walls above him. His father, Priam, is tearing out his own hair, begging Hector to come back inside. But Hector stays. Patroclus died at his hands. Troy's army shattered under his command. And shame and pride once again are holding him in place. And he chooses to fight. And then he sees Achilles coming, blazing in this brand new armor made by the gods. And Hector, the bravest man in Troy, who was determined to stay put, well, he runs. Achilles chases him around the walls of the city three times. Homer compared it to a nightmare where you can never really catch what you're chasing, but you can also never escape what's chasing you. And it only ends because Athena cheats. She takes the form of Hector's brother and promises to stand beside him and tricks him into stopping. So when Hector finally stops and stands his ground and throws his spear, he turns for backup and looks to his brother, but he's not there. It was just a trick played by one of the goddesses. Hector dies on Achilles spear, begging with his last breath for one thing. He says, give my body back to my family. Achilles response is one of the coldest lines in all of ancient literature. He wishes his rage would drive him to carve Hector's flesh and eat it raw. And then he pierces the dead man's ankle, ties him to the back of his chariot, and drags the body around the walls of Troy in full view of Hector's mother and his father and his wife, who reaches the wall at that exact moment. Now, of course, Achilles doesn't stop there. Day after day, he drags the corpse in circles around Patroclus Tomb. And this is where the poem goes, somewhere that no war movie ever does past victory into what victory turns a man into. Achilles realizes that Killing Hector fixed nothing. Patroclus is still dead, his best friend gone. Achilles can't sleep, he can't eat, he can't stop. Even the gods are disturbed at how cruel and just how morbid he's become in this victory. And Apollo keeps the body miraculously unspoiled, no matter what's done to it. Now, you would think the poem about rage ends there, with the rage kind of taking over, but it doesn't. The greatest scene in the Iliad actually has no weapons in it at all. After all the devastation and the ruin and the violence, the old king Priam loads a wagon with treasure and guided by the God Hermes, sneaks into the Greek camp at night, into the tent of the man who killed his very son. And there, the king of Troy drops to his knees and takes Achilles hand and kisses them. These are the hands that killed Hector, that killed his son. And he says, I've done what no man on earth has done. Kiss the hands of the man who killed my son. He begs Achilles to think of his own father, an old man far away in Greece who at least has the hope of seeing his son again. And that lands because Achilles knows the prophecy. His father will never see him again. And the. The two men just standing there in this tent, an old king who lost his son and this young killer who lost his. His literal brother, his closest friend, and will soon lose his own life. They break down and they weep together in the tent, enemy and enemy grieving in the same room over the consequence of the same war. Achilles gives the body back and grants Troy 11 days of truce for the funeral. And that is how the Iliad ends. Not with the Trojan horse, not with the fall of the city, not even with Achilles own death. It ends with Hector's funeral closing with grief and like a moment of mercy and even like a shared vulnerability between a mourning king and his enemy. Everything else that, you know, Achilles taking Paris, arrow in the heel, which, for the record, I've been saying Paris. I know a lot of people are like, it's potus. I'm American. Okay? I. I just pronounce it like, just kind of how I read it. It's Paris to me. And then, you know, like the wooden horse, Odysseus idea, by the way, the sack of Troy. All of that happens after the last page in other poems, like the Odyssey tells some of those stories years later in Odysseus's memory. So that's how the poems line up. The Iliad ends with Troy still standing, but, you know, the Doom is sealed. And then off screen, the city falls. And then the Odyssey opens up with Odysseus starting his journey home. And now and then kind of retelling stories from the war, which brings us all the way back to where we started. Hey, guys, we're gonna take a break really quick because I'm on the road. That's right. My stand up comedy tour continues at the end of this year, and I'm going to a bunch of cities. In October, I'm going to Plano, Texas. I'm going to Chandler, Arizona. In November, I'm going to Pasadena, California. I'm going to San Diego. And in December, I'm going to Detroit, Michigan. And in January, I'll be in Salt Lake City. I genuinely cannot wait to see you guys. I hang out after every single show. I would love to grab a photo with you and just chop it up and talk about the podcast life, whatever it is. So come on out, come hang with me, see the show, and say what's up afterwards. Now let's get back to the podcast. So now we know the whole story, at least all the major plot points of the Iliad. And the cool thing is that no single poem holds the totality of the story. The ancient Greeks had a whole cycle of epics about Troy, the war's beginning and the horse and the fall and the aftermath. And almost all of them are gone. They're just lost to history. And only two songs survive, the Iliad and the Odyssey. The story of rage and ego and pettiness and loss and vengeance. And then, of course, the long road home. I mean, think about, like, the one sliver of the war that this actual story talks about. There's pride and honor and grief and family relationships and this soldier who refuses to be disrespected and a husband who wouldn't abandon his post and a father begging for his son's body back. And yes, there's gods in it, and there's scheming and gods that are cheating and gods dying and bleeding on behalf of their chosen humans that they have to respect and all that stuff. But the gods aren't why we keep coming back to this. The war isn't even why we keep coming back to it. Because if you strip all the God stuff and the mythology and the violence and all that other stuff, what you have left is a very human story. You have humans and human emotion at play. 27 centuries later, we all are suffering from the same pride and the same rage and the same grief and the same vengeance. In some ways, The Iliad isn't the whole story of Troy, because it never really was, I might say. It zooms in on the story of what mattered at Troy. And ultimately, what matters at Troy is the story of being human. It is dealing with loss and disrespect and vengeance, and ultimately what the price of vengeance really is. And it is that part of the story that transcends almost 3,000 years. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is a brief synopsis of the story of the Iliad. I mean, truly, like, every time I read the story or I'm refreshed on the details, it is. It's, like, truly heartbreaking. Like, the idea of, like, Hector standing at the city walls, like, with his son and with his wife just being like, hey, don't do it. Hector's parents yelling down from the walls of the city like, hey, just come inside. None of this is worth it. You don't have to die. Like, just. This whole thing is absurd. Even, like, the two of them once. Achilles basically says, I'm not fighting, and the two of them are kind of going back and forth. Or like the Greeks and the Trojans basically saying, like, hey, just let. Let Paris settle this, right? Like, we don't need to all go to war about this whole thing, you know, like, let's just have them smooth this thing over. And the fact that you have so much collateral damage and so much violence and bloodshed over human emotions and pride and ego, that just. I don't know. I think the story shows it in a way, even to this day, that is really compelling and I think shows us the cost of pride. And I think ultimately that's why it stuck around. I mean, Miles, what did you learn about the Iliad today?

[B]

I mean, I've been sort of obsessed with it lately just because of the Odyssey coming out, and, like, my whole YouTube algorithm has been it. But

[C]

tomorrow morning is knocking. Stock your fridge now. How about a creamy mocha Frappuccino drink? Or a sweet vanilla smooth caramel, maybe? Or a white chocolate mocha? Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks Frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries.

[B]

I don't know. It is such a human story. Like, the emotions are all. It's sort of a tragedy of just human emotion, right?

[A]

Like, the emotions are so tangible to me. Like, yeah, you're gonna take my girl.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, that's like. There's been, like, true crime documentaries on Netflix that came out, like, a year ago, about that same exact feeling. Like, are you gonna take my girl? I'm Fight you. I'm gonna kill you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm gonna wage a whole war. I'm gonna get my boys that are at the bar across the street to come over and f you up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, it's like it's happened over and over and over again because it is something intrinsically built into, like, how human beings see themselves and how we interface with disrespect.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And like the idea of like, oh, my friend died. So I'm like, the fact that the prophecy element is in there, I'm sure a lot of modern readers are like, well, all right, the prophecy is not real.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But the fact that it's in the story and if you can suspend disbelief and just be like, hey, what if the prophecy is real? Real. And you're Achilles and you're like, hey, this guy killed my friend. I know if I kill him, I'm 100% going to die. I'm like signing my own death certificate and I'm still going to do it. It kind of shows, like the complete lack of rational thought, you know, like Achilles was ready to go home.

[B]

Yeah. It's also such a story of like young men's feelings in a way, you know what I mean? Like, I don't know how old they are in this story. I don't know their exact ages, but

[A]

like, I presume pretty young. I think soldiers, typically, back in the

[B]

day, war is young. It's a young man's game, as people have said.

[A]

And like, especially in this time. Yeah, like, you can probably. It's a good point because you could probably say achilles is like 22:18, you

[B]

know what I mean? And like, nothing is more headstrong than just like an 18 year old with a vendetta, you know what I mean? Like, I also understand the parents point in some of these story lines where they're like, dude, don't go to war. They have time and love that tells them you don't need to do this. But then a headstrong 20 year old's like, fuck you, dad.

[A]

Yeah, right. There's another interesting element with the gods, because it's like the war starts because of the gods. There's this egotistical beauty pageant that happens in the heavens basically that then causes this war to begin. So it's interesting that they kind of offload the emotional burden of the cause of the war. Yeah. To the gods. They're like, yeah, look, we had to get this guy married. Like, Aphrodite promised, Paris could have potus. Paris could have like the most beautiful Woman, give him Helen. Oh, she's married to Agamemnon. Like, all that kind of stuff. It is interesting that they're like, well, war happens because of the gods, but, like, vengeance and anger and ego, all that stuff is, like, human emotion.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's interesting. They couldn't just be like, yeah, the war. I wonder almost, actually, if that gives a better justification. Because, let's say, like, Paris goes in and just, like, takes Helen. It'd be like, oh, well, Paris is the instigator, and he's just, like, a terrible guy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's actually like Paris, like, did a deal with a deity far greater than him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's actually not even anyone's fault. And it's humans that are paying the price for the God's greed.

[B]

Yeah. There's so many great parallels to be drawn. Like, it's just a, you know, hot take. It's a great story.

[A]

It's a great story.

[B]

There's a lot of different versions of the story. And I remember in college, maybe one of the professors basically broke down that in the main retelling of the story, or the most accepted version, Menelaus is going to kill Helen. Troy falls. Helen of Troy is in there. It's his former wife, if I'm not mistaken. And he's gonna go in there and exact vengeance and kill her because of. That's what's next in the story. And I think in the common way, a goddess comes in and saves her, intervenes and says, no, no, no, we're not gonna do this. There's a version of the story where he's overcome by her beauty and that gives him forgiveness in her heart. And then there's another version of the story of that same vein, where she's saying, stop. Don't kill me. And her breast is exposed.

[A]

No.

[B]

And he's so taken aback by the beauty of her and her breast that he goes, can't kill this one.

[A]

I get it.

[B]

And I'm like, that's awesome.

[A]

Just the humanity in the story is just.

[B]

That's the best. That's the most relatable version, dude.

[A]

I completely understand that. You know, it is also. I misspoke. I'm sorry. Helen is not married to Agamemnon. Not Helen married to Menelaus.

[B]

Yeah, Menelaus. And then she's banging someone else in front of him.

[A]

Wait, what part of the story says Helen's banging someone?

[B]

I think, if I'm not mistaken, Helen is banging Paris. And Menelaus, at one point looks on. Here's a Reddit post from six years ago. Menelaus looks on without anger or a sense of betrayal. He admires her. The gods made me do it.

[A]

Whoa. Yeah, so the gods just kind of are like a scapegoat for like, like a plot device.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just to be like, well, wouldn't he be mad? And wouldn't he like kill him on the spot? And it's like, like. Well, yeah, technically the God said it was fine.

[B]

It's awesome though. It's really great. I like this idea that like, if there's all these like prophecies.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And like that's awesome. What would you do if like, if you believed in prophecies and were given one that was like, hey, if you do this, X will happen, Y will happen.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know how it would live.

[A]

I mean, that's what makes Harry Potter awesome.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because like, hey, the whole thing is built on this prophecy. Like you're the boy who lived. You gotta do yada yada yada. And so everything he does is knowing his faith and it creates like immediate irony where it's like he's acting in a way that's against his own well being because he knows the outcome. It's not like he has any hope. It's like the prophecy has sealed him. And every decision he makes knows that the prophecy is already done.

[B]

There's a. We're gonna get caught up in Harry Potter. But there's a great little moment in Harry Potter where you find out that Neville Longbottom, his like sort of dorky, goofy friend, could have also fulfilled the prophecy. The prophecy doesn't describe Harry Potter by name. It describes a person who's born like in June. His parents are killed or tortured or suffer a fate by the hand of the evil person, whatever. And Neville was like the exact, could have been the exact same thing. And it's sort of a cool thing where you're like, oh, this prophecy wasn't also given to him by name but by chance. And now you gotta step up to the place.

[A]

I almost wonder if you could just tell your kids a prophecy. I wonder if I could tell my little baby just like, hey, our family has like a prophecy, a lineage where we are meant to be this type of person. I wonder, I wonder if you could just trick and be like, it's like a. Don't tell your friends about it. It's like an internal, like it's a family prophecy. And then all of a sudden they live his whole life being like, oh, things are going to work out for me. Because the prophecy. Yeah, we tell our kids about Santa.

[B]

You know what I mean?

[A]

Just tell them like a sick prophecy. Be like, your great great grandfather is actually one of the greatest warriors.

[B]

Well, in a weird way, I feel like that's like old blue Bl families where it's like you come from a family lineage of greats. Like your great grandfather was this and this. And the Kennedys almost, in a way, have like, not a built in prophecy, but like some sort of built in lore that's like, we are a. We are.

[A]

We were born to be this. We were born to be successful. God chose us in a way. So now go on and be a dj. You know, that kind of energy.

[B]

Yeah. Also, the Kennedys do have some sort of weird prophecy through thing. Oh, yeah. I mean, reach greatness, but die immediately. Get me.

[A]

What do you guys think? If you've ever read the Iliad or if you just heard this episode kind of summarizing it, what's your takeaway? Are there any details that I overlooked? Any words I mispronounced? Sorry, I'm not Greek. I don't have my Greek liaison here today. Any. Any, like, thoughts or, like, I don't know, sort of like literary connections that people don't always think about that. You noticed in the story that maybe when we do another episode on this, I'm going to highlight those comments, so please drop a comment. YouTube, Spotify all that. I read all the comments. I might not respond to all of them, but. But someone else will respond to it. Someone else will read to it. Someone else will read it, and it will be productive for the discourse here at the campsite. Just keep it civil, okay? We have a beautiful little enclave on the Internet where everyone's, like, nice to each other in the comments. Let's just keep it that way. Not that many people know about the show, so it can stay like that for a while. So let's try to keep that up. Additionally, if you like religious content, like crazy religious deep dives, great news. We have religion camp every Sunday. Also, if you like crazy deep dives on, like, conspiracies and mysteries and unsolved stuff, well, great news. Camp Gagnon, the main channel, that's gonna be for you. And if you just like to rock with the history stuff, well, we do that every single Wednesday right here, so make sure you subscribe. Check out all the future episodes. Check out the other episodes that we've done on the city of Troy, whether it was real or not, and check out the episode we did on The Odyssey. Thank you guys so much for tuning to another episode of History Camp, and I will see y' all in the future to talk about the past. Hey, guys, if you love conspiracies and hypothetical history, well, I want to invite you to check out signal 33. This is a companion pod to our podcast here at camp. It's made and edited by same team that runs all of our shows, and I choose the topics every single week. So check it out. Subscribe and start the dialogue in the comment section.