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- [00:00]
A
Is it possible that all things on earth are connected by the same consciousness? Are we all one? And is God present even in the darkest moments? Well, to answer these questions, we are joined by Satpal Singh, a British Sikh teacher whose mission is to awaken minds and transform lives all over the world. In this conversation, Satpal challenges some of the biggest questions that human beings have ever asked. Why evil exists, whether free will is real, what happens after we die, and whether the self that we spend our lives defending is actually an illusion.
- [00:32]
B
Your biggest delusion is that you've forgotten that this is actually just one big thing called life. Your only purpose in life is to realize that you are part of it. And as human beings, all of us have forgotten. We have forgotten our connection to this thing.
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A
We go into ego, meditation, consciousness, and the ancient idea that reality may not be exactly what it seems. And beneath all of it is one massive question. What if life isn't something you're supposed to control, but a kind of game you're supposed to wake up from? So if you were interested in Sikhism, in God, in evil, free will, death, meditation, and learning more about the religions of the world, well, this is the episode for you. So sit back, relax, and welcome to Camp. Satpa. Thank you so much for being here.
- [01:24]
B
Thank you so much for having me.
- [01:25]
A
I'm really excited to talk. I. I've done a few episodes on Sikhi and Sikhism and a few of the different gurus, and. And I do it for a few reasons. And the fact that you're sitting here in front of me today is many. Basically, both the reasons manifest in real time, which is really cool, but the main reason that I do it is that I want to be a better human being on Earth. And I think the best way to love other human beings is to understand the God that they worship. And I think it is the best way, the easiest way, to immediately just cut through every other cultural artifact, all the other noise that exists politically, by even understanding, if they don't even practice the religion, just growing up in that community and in that faith, it shapes their worldview in a way that I can understand who they are on a very human level. And so by being able to understand all these religions to a better degree, I'm able to be a better human. The second reason is because I try to adopt all the good things from every faith that I study and apply to my own life and my own spiritual journey. I grew up in the Catholic tradition, and there's things that I find in Hinduism and Judaism and Islam and Sikhi as well, that I pull and I. I apply it to my life as regularly as I can, just to try to create a more full picture of what my connection with God is. And the fact that you're in front of me today, able to speak confidently and eloquently about Sikhism is really exciting, because now I can actually ask someone and not have to go through wikipedia articles and YouTube videos. I can actually interface with an actual expert in the field to understand what the faith really is and what it means for all of humanity to really try to embody what the faith is. But before jumping into it, could you just give the audience a bit of an introduction as to who you are and kind of how you were brought up and what your relationship with Sikhism is?
- [03:11]
B
Well, thank you so much for having me here. My background is I run a YouTube channel called Nanak Naam, which I started back in 2013. And it was precisely for some of the reasons that you were talking about that I grew up in a tradition which I benefited from learning the deep spiritual wisdom about it, really deep diving and geeking into what the scriptures were talking about of the Sikh faith that I realized that this had so much value for the whole of humanity. And my only real goal was, how do I get these teachings out there for no other reason than to help people navigate with their mindset, with their mental health, how do they find a sense of spiritual fulfillment? I knew that the answers were there in my own tradition, in my own background, because I had benefited so much from it. With no kind of feeling that I want to convert someone or change your religion or anything like that. I'm just saying, hey, there's a wisdom here, and it's amazing. It's changing people's lives every day, and you can apply it no matter what religion you belong to. So I started a YouTube channel called Nanak Naam, which was really taking the teachings of Guru Nanak, the founder of the Sikh tradition, and making it just easy for people to understand and digest. In English.
- [04:29]
A
Yeah, it's awesome. The content is great. I've seen a few of the videos, and they just make it. It's very palatable. And I think for many people, specifically growing up in the west and in America, predominantly a Christian country, most people grow up within a Protestant tradition, some in a Catholic tradition. I don't think people have a lot of interfaith conversation with people outside of the religion broadly, but specifically with people that grow up of the Sikh tradition. And I think anyone that's watching, if you grew up in any other type of faith tradition, or even if you're agnostic or atheistic. I think that there's something that can be learned in sort of the teachings of the gurus and as well as what you can share with us. And I would encourage everyone to kind of bounce it off of your own world view and your own religious perspective, as well as, you know, maybe even incorporating some of the elements in the way that. That I have. But a few of the things right off the. Right off the start, I think, before we dive into, like, the deep philosophical inner workings of how, you know, God works and our relationship with this cosmic consciousness. I think people specifically in America, they see you and they don't know what you are, and they see, like, you get onto an airplane and you see a guy with a turban, and you're like, he's Muslim, Arab, or maybe he's Hindu, or what even is Hinduism? Like, I think a lot of Americans don't understand when they look at a sick person to really make sense of it. So can you explain to the audience, like, where this philosophy comes from? Is it Hinduism? Is it Islam? What exactly. How would you explain that to someone that has no idea?
- [05:54]
B
Okay, so Sikhism 101.
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A
Exactly.
- [05:57]
B
Yeah. So the tradition starts about 550 years ago in the northernmost state of India, which is Punjab, and that is a landlocked area and almost the entry point of India. So on India, if you know a little bit of your geography, on one side of the north, you've got the Himalayan mountains, so not much movement of people on that side. And then on the other side, you've got India going into the Arab world, so Afghanistan, Iran and Persia, like that. And so what you've got in Punjab is this one area where these two major kind of world communities collide. And you see a big migration and a movement of people there. So if we. If we ever talking about a multicultural society or a melting pot of different cultures, that's Punjab. That's where this started. And it started at a time when there was an invasion of Iranian Persian rulers coming into India. Remember, India historically has been one of the richest countries in the world. So people have always tried to invade that country and steal the gold and the riches out of it. Alexander the Great, all of these times going back to Greek times and things like that. So you've had people doing that for thousands of years. So what you end up with is a place where a lot of ideas, a lot of conflict, a lot of different things are going on. Guru Nanak is a wise spiritual master who is observing this world, observing the difference of opinions, observing the conflicts. And he is realizing that ultimately something is unanimously the same for all of us. We're all human. There is something that underlines all of us. Rather than looking at people's differences, how do we help people understand what is the thing that unites all of us? So for him, he develops his spiritual path in a way that is not about seeing distinction between people, but it's about how do we find a way to bring all these people together. And over time, he develops his own way of spiritual development, enlightenment. And then his philosophy is carried on by a further nine gurus. So he's called Guru Nanak, the first Guru of the Sikh spiritual wisdom. And then he's followed by nine other gurus. And these gurus are also in that concentrated kind of place where there is this turmoil going on. And over time, this develops from just being a very meditative, wisdom based tradition to a tradition where it's no longer good enough to just know the wisdom. You've got to actively serve it. And that's why you see over time this developing into a warrior tradition as well as a saintly meditative tradition.
- [08:45]
A
Right. And his story is fascinating. I mean, I did a whole episode on it and as best as I could sort of assimilate his, his teachings. But going around, traveling the whole region with a companion, a Muslim guy, and the two of them kind of like traveling the the region and sort of sharing their wisdom and sharing these teachings across like not only India, but like the of this part of the world. Yeah.
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B
Guru Nanak travels right to the south of India. He goes to Tibet, he goes to Mecca. And his whole mission was going back to the spiritual centers around the world and showing them, hey, you guys were meant to be the spiritual leaders and you ended up dividing people. And he goes back and tries to realign all the various spiritual traditions back to their core. Not to convert them, not to change them, but to say, look, this is what your spirituality was meant to be about. It was meant to be about uniting people. And somehow over time, you became about dividing people. It became about your ego and your superiority complex. So he goes and has these spiritual debates with people from all over the world, which is why it's so fascinating to try and realign them back into their own spiritual truth.
- [09:57]
A
Right now, I think just for geography's sake, Punjab is the highest concentration of Sikhs in the world, but not all Punjabis are Sikh and not all Sikhi people that follow the tradition are Punjabi, but I think that's like, a helpful way that people can understand. They're like, okay, not all Indians are Sikh. Not all Indians are Hindu. But this is the part of the region where this all sort of starts and why it is the sort of the central place. And in the home of the Golden Temple as well.
- [10:25]
B
That's right. Amritsar.
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A
Yeah. The Golden Temple is, like, one of the most beautiful.
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B
Have you been?
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A
Oh, it's a dream of mine. Yeah. To walk through the water, to go to the langar and to actually, like, experience it. I mean, it's such a cool thing. Yeah. That's actually maybe one of my favorite, like, features of Sikhism, and maybe you can even clarify this. I think people sometimes get hung up, or they're like, oh, this is another religion. Can you describe the difference between a religion and a philosophy or a tradition and how that relates to Sikhism?
- [10:52]
B
Yeah. I think what's one of the things I'm very keen to try and do amongst the Sikh community, as well as the kind of the global community, is to try and show that not all religions are trying to achieve the same things. And I think what we have, and we can kind of go a little bit into it, but the definition of what makes a religion really just comes from Europeans, and they are the ones that created a structure by saying if you are to be a bona fide religion, you have to have a prophet, you have to have a holy book, you have to have a creation theory, you have to have an afterlife theory. And so what this do is you just create all of these different boxes. So your philosophical system has all of these things, ours has these things. Guru Nanak, I don't think, was trying to do that. Guru Nanak was trying to introduce spirituality back to all religions. So regardless of what your belief is, what happens after you die, or who your prophet is that you pray to, there are spiritual practices that you and I can both be applying, regardless of what background we come from. And I think that's what the Sikh tradition is trying to do. It's not trying to be just another religion. I actually see it as an umbrella religion, which is kind of like the best bits, the best spiritual practices that anybody should be doing, even atheists. That's what's so interesting about it, is this philosophy actually works for atheists as well. And whether you're into stoicism and whether you're into dao, you know, anything like that, you can apply these practices. And I think that's a real genius move. By Guru Nanak to try and create a spiritual tradition which is not trying to be just another religion.
- [12:29]
A
Right. And the sort of the secession of the gurus goes from person to person, oftentimes like the son or another close companion, but then it sort of ends, but is also eternal. And this sort of culminates in the Guru Granth Sahib. Can you explain what that is?
- [12:49]
B
So one of the problems that Guru Nanak noticed was that spiritual traditions had a habit of just molding and changing over time based on like political landscape and things like that. And a lot of the reason why is because the founders never actually wrote anything down. So Guru Nanak starts by writing down his ideas. That alone is revolutionary. To actually write it down and codify it. So there's no room for interpretation. There's no one saying, hey, we think Guru Nanak said this or we think he said that. You have his writings down and it's only 500 years ago. So we still have those handwritten copies of some of the writings. But he does something really amazing there as well. He doesn't just write his wisdom down. He brings in spiritual masters from various traditions and puts them all into one religious scripture. So we have Sufi Muslims who've written in Guru Granth Sahib, we have Hindu poets and saints written in the Guru Granth Sahib as well as Guru Nanak and the later Gurus as well. I mean, talk about a multi faith kind of tradition. This is it a tradition where literally we're taking the best bits from the various faiths. As long as they all kind of are singing from the same hymn sheet and they're all saying roughly the same thing. The Guru's bringing all those and saying, look, there's no hierarchies here. There's no room for the caste system in a true human society. There's no room for superiority or inferiority. You know, some of the people who've written, whose writings are in Guru Granth Sahib had like were seen as the low castes. He takes low castes, spiritual masters and brings their wisdom in. So every time you go to a Sikh temple, you're bowing down to this wisdom. You're bowing down to the idea that there is no room for discrimination. Because there are kings, spiritual kings, who've written in Guru Granth Sahib and there are people who had like some of these spiritual masters. Their day job was like they were shoemakers.
- [14:50]
A
Right.
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B
And in India at those times, those are seen as like really low caste people, untouchables. Their writings are in as well. To totally eradicate this kind of hierarchical system that was rampant at the time in India.
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A
Right. So this book, this text, I guess, sort of pulls in all of these different classes and even ethnicities and religious traditions all into one collection of spiritual wisdom.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And I think that's really powerful. And so when people hear that, they go, oh, so that's your Bible. Is that. Would you say that's a fair proxy?
- [15:23]
B
So we have Guru Nanak and his nine successors, and then the very last guru, Guru Gobind Singh ji, who you've done an excellent video on as well, he actually passes on the guru, the guruship to the scripture. So for us, we wouldn't call Guru Granth Sahib our Bible. We call it our Jesus. The way that you would interact if Jesus was standing right in front of you as a Christian, is how we react to the actual text itself. It's not the writings of the guru. It is the guru itself. So one of the things that the gurus taught was, hey, don't hang on to me. Don't hold on to me. Hold on to the words that I'm saying. Hold on to the wisdom. So they give wisdom the status of the guru. Wisdom is the teacher. And again, what a beautiful thing, because it's not about, hey, he's our guy. He's the guy that we bow down to. Even eliminates the idea of holding on to a prophet. They just say what the masters are saying is more important than you just kind of holding onto it. Because in any tradition, what happens is once the prophet dies, the successor starts to create these kind of divisions because there'll be somebody else says, no, actually, I'm the real true successor, or I'm the true successor. And so you start creating factions, of course. So the 10th guru creates a scripture and says, no one is the next guru. The wisdom itself is the guru.
- [16:46]
A
Yeah. Which is a very powerful mechanism. I mean, we've seen secession problems that happen within Islam that create a, you know, a Sunni, Shia split. And even within Christianity, obviously, you have schisms and reformations. And it seems like within Sikhism, you have a bit of a more unified structure because it all sort of rests in the wisdom that is collected within this book.
- [17:05]
B
Yeah. And I think the Sikh tradition being one of the youngest world religions, if we can call it that. I'm not a fan of the word religion, but if we can call it one of the youngest world religions, it's because they actively saw some of the things that had happened with the other world religions. And they were saying, look, we can see these problems because some of these. These traditions are a thousand 1500, 2000 years old. We can see where certain things have not worked. How do we. How do we overcome those problems right now?
- [17:32]
A
For many people that come from a. I guess a more institutionalized religious structure, they go, okay, well, who's the Pope then? Like, who decides what happens next? How does that work within Sikhism?
- [17:44]
B
So this is where it becomes really fascinating. Guru Gobind Singh ji splits the guruship into two, and he says, the wisdom is the guru, and the people are the guru. The mass, the people who follow the wisdom, they are also the guru. So what he said was, the mind of the guru is in the scripture and the body of the guru is in you. You become the decision maker. You become the guru. The people that go out and take this wisdom into the world and make the decisions. So he creates a decentralized popeship. Every person is now their own Pope, which is such a powerful idea. Every person now has the responsibility that says, I'm actually carrying the weight of this, the burden of this. I have to act like I'm the Pope. I have to act like I'm the one who is the representative.
- [18:34]
A
So you have to pray as much as the Pope does. You have to meditate as much as the Pope. You have to read the scripture as much as the Pope. It's now not so much someone else's responsibility to tell you what to do. You now have agency in your own life to now carry on that honor and that obligation.
- [18:48]
B
And you have the wisdom as your guiding principles, but you are the one that has to carry it out in the world. You're the decision maker. And I think that's, again, a very fascinating idea. And Guru Gobind Singh ji, the way he does that is he creates this warrior saint class called the khalsa. And he says that you are now my guru. So he has this ceremony, which we can kind of touch upon a little bit about how he creates an initiation system. And he initiates the five first initiates, and he then bows down to them and says, please, can you bless me with this as well? I also want to join this group, because this group is my guru. He calls the khalsa his guru, the community his guru. And again, we've never seen something like that, where the prophet or the guru or the spiritual master bows down to
- [19:43]
A
the students and shows humility.
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B
Show the rest of humility.
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A
That collectively, what we all know and the wisdom that we're all touching is greater than any one of us.
- [19:50]
B
Any one of us yeah. So destroying the ego is like the central tenet of this philosophy, that sense that you're more important than anyone else, or you are somehow important, inferior, or superior to anyone. Just destroying that whole thing. Because remember that the world that it's in, you've got these multiple different traditions, and within traditions, you've got hierarchies. You've got infighting between different groups. The guru saying, enough is enough. We need to come up with a new system that totally eradicates that.
- [20:21]
A
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B
So both of them are words that are being used actively. The original pronunciation in the Punjabi language is Sikh or Sikhi being the tradition. So a person who follows it is a Sikh. It actually comes from a Sanskrit word meaning sishya student. So everybody who is on this tradition is a learner and the guru is the wisdom. But Sikh is actually a British invention. When the British went to India and colonized India, the first time they came across these people, the Sikh people, they spelt it S I Q U E Sikhs. And still in the UK Today, which is where I'm from, we all call it Sikhs or Sikhism. But actually everywhere else in the world, the correct pronunciation is sick.
- [24:04]
A
Right, okay, that's helpful. Cause I think if people are like explaining this to their friends, they're like bringing it up in conversation or they meet someone maybe with a turban and they're like, oh, I know about you. I think there might be fear of, like, well, I don't want to say the wrong word. How do I pronounce it? So if you're in the uk, you'd probably say seek, but everywhere else you could say sick.
- [24:19]
B
I'll alleviate some of the tension of your audience. If you go to any sick person and you know even a little bit about it, that sick person's gonna be very pleased because most people don't know who the sick people are. So you'll greeted very, very favorably.
- [24:34]
A
I think you're right. I've noticed that in my own life as well. I've also. I think a lot of people, they're like, okay, so the Pope is not really the Pope. You have kind of like the wisdom that is the guru. Then you have the people that are the guru. It's not really religion. It's kind of like a philosophy or a tradition. There's not really a prophet, but he is kind of like the originator. He's the original guru. So now they're kind of making connections with their own tradition. What is the church like? As Catholics, we go to church every Sunday. What is that for?
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B
So in the Sikh tradition, the spiritual temples are called a gurdwara, the guru's door, the door to the wisdom. And it is a center where the teachings. One of the things we haven't talked about is the teachings were all written in poetry and in song. So the entire wisdom is written in song lyrics. It's not stories, it's not long prose, it's not long paragraphs. It's actually song lyrics. So if you go to a Sikh temple, a gurdwara, more times than not, you'll see people sitting on a stage singing this wisdom. So Guru Nanak, one of the, again, wonderful things that he did was he asked himself this question. If I need to teach the masses wisdom, what's the best way to get wisdom into people's heads? And he realized that if I read you a piece of text, you'll probably remember one or two words. If I read it to you as poetry, you might remember a line, but if I sing it to you, you'll get that song stuck in your head. So he puts the entire philosophy into song lyrics. And so in a gurdwara, you'll hear kirtan being sung. If you go to the Golden Temple all day, right into the late hours of the evening, there's just these words being sung, this music being sung. It's the words that are in the form of song. Lyrics.
- [26:14]
A
Wow, that's beautiful. And how often would a practicing Sikh person go to the Gurdwara?
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B
So there's no kind of strict rules around any of this stuff. Some people go every day. Some people go once a week. Some people just go when there's like a big wedding. Other peoples will create a mini gurdwara in their home. So in one specific room in their house, they'll have the scriptures and they'll treat that room as though it's like a mini gurdwara. And then they'll kind of go sing the verses from there, read from the holy scriptures. They'll kind of have a daily practice within their own home. So for us, it isn't really about dedicating yourself to these. Go to the Gurdwara. That isn't the be all and end all. It's access the wisdom however you can, in whatever way that you can. One of the things I always encourage people is, hey, you can download the wisdom now onto your phone on an app. Just read it every day. It really isn't about the tradition or the rituals. It really is just about the wisdom. Right. Access the wisdom every day.
- [27:20]
A
Which I think is a helpful way to delineate people that come from another faith tradition that is so ritual based. I mean, Catholicism is highly ritual based, which I like the rituals and I like sort of the tradition and the ceremony of it. But looking at these types of. I mean, people kind of call them Eastern philosophies. Like, you know, Buddhism in a way is like this, and Sikhi is like this, where it's more of just a life philosophy that is rooted in a core wisdom that then you are constantly practicing every moment of every day. And how you interface with that, like you said, is kind of a personal journey. But one thing about the gurdwar that I love, and this I think really shows and is a testament to the heart of, you know, Sikhi as well as, if I may, the Punjabi people at large is the langar. Yeah, this is one of my favorite things. Can you explain what that is and sort of how it operates?
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B
So remember that one of the key goals of this philosophy was to break people's hierarchies, break down social structures which were putting some people down and elevating some people up. So the way the guru does it, he says, if you want to come learn from me, first go sit in our communal kitchen and make sure you will lower your ego enough that you can sit on the floor with anyone. So you go to Gurdwara, you sit on the floor, you're served a free meal, no questions asked. Nobody's going to ask why you're here. How many times have you eaten this meal already? There's, like zero questions. And the idea is that first you sit together and you break bread together first. And you sit amongst people from all backgrounds and cultures before you go and learn the wisdom. So it's kind of like an immediate way to just humble yourself and ready yourself to take on this wisdom. I like to think of the wisdom as a langar as well as a meal. So fill your belly and then fill your mind with this wisdom.
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A
Right? Yeah. And the Golden Temple has one of the biggest langars in the world. Could you actually pull up a video of the Golden Temple langar? Just a massive kitchen, really, that anyone can go to.
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B
And I think anyone can help cook as well.
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A
Right.
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B
There's no superiority on.
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A
Or clean or whatever it is that you can contribute. And I think it's a helpful thing, both practically. If you're, you know, living in New York City and you're hungry and. Or maybe you're not in the best financial situation, you just, like, need a little bit of help. You can go to a gurdwara anywhere in the world and they will feed you.
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B
Yeah.
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A
No questions asked, 100%. And then on top of that, not only do you get the benefit of nourishment, you also get the spiritual benefit of helping other people. People by cleaning dishes or cooking or something in that nature to contribute to this whole sort of ecosystem. I just think it's a beautiful thing that as a Catholic, this is where I'm like, oh, I wish we did this. Of course we have so many Catholic charities that contribute. But I'm like, just something so practical like this, I just think is so wonderful for any type of spiritual tradition.
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B
Can I add a little bit of context to this?
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A
Yeah, please.
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B
The difference between the langar and a charity is, in general, when you have a charity that's feeding people, it's generally the mindset is that we are. We've been given so much. We want to give to people who don't have enough.
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A
Right.
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B
Langar doesn't have that philosophy. Langar has the philosophy that the person sitting in front of me is my God for this moment and I'm going to serve you. Not that you're lower than me or you've got less than me, is that you're more than me. So you actually serve them as though you were serving your God. So the person serving is now not coming from a place of superiority. They're coming from a place of humbleness as well.
- [30:48]
A
Right. And I think the context here also matters. Like this is fairly revolutionary now, but specifically in the context that it was created in, in a very caste based India where I don't know if everyone knows this, there's certain classes of people that broadly speaking at that time were untouchable, like the Dalits, where you really couldn't interact with them. You can't marry into a different caste even now. Sure.
- [31:12]
B
It's still there in India now it's
- [31:14]
A
rampant to the same degree.
- [31:15]
B
Yeah.
- [31:16]
A
Really? Yeah, yeah. Oh, wow. I didn't know that. I've heard that, like it's maybe not as rigid, but still there's a cultural caste that kind of exists.
- [31:23]
B
Yeah, totally.
- [31:23]
A
And something like this to say, hey, whether you are a Brahmin and you are the highest caste or you are the lowest caste, or you're a very wealthy, you know, Emirati prince or you're American farmer, you're all going to sit and break bread together in this moment. We're all humble at this moment because
- [31:40]
B
all of these are just societal labels. It's just you're just lucky to have been born into a rich, wealthy family or into a particular kind of community or a caste. But that's not who we are as human beings. As human beings, we're all ultimately equal. And so this system kind of, it forces equality into the people in a beautiful way. That's what I love about it.
- [32:02]
A
Yeah. And just even the way that these go. Can you roll this video here? And so you see all these people just making food and no one here is paid.
- [32:11]
B
They're all unpaid volunteers.
- [32:13]
A
Right. Just helping and contributing. It's just a really cool practice that I wish. Again, I think different faiths do this in different ways, but the way that this is done just feels very humble and very pure to me. I don't know, something about it spoke to me on a personal basis, but I think now we've kind of distilled some of the practical ways that a Sikhi person would live their life and kind of how it's similar and different to other major religions in some ways. So if someone were to come to you and say, what do Sikhi people believe? Because I know as a Catholic, you know, we believe in the Trinity, but we believe in one monotheistic God, that Christ is the Son, but also the Savior, the Messiah. We worship Christ, we go to church every Sunday, we get baptized, we have communion. Muslims have their own version of this to say, you know, we have you know, this idea of monotheism, this one God, and we have the Prophet Allah, peace be upon him who is the final of the prophets. And that is what we believe as Muslims. Of course, amongst other things. If someone were to say that for Sikhi, how would you start to explain what the philosophy actually is?
- [33:15]
B
So I'd have to go back to how Guru Nanak explains it. The very first word in the scripture that he started is there is oneness that permeates all of creation. And that idea runs through the rest of the entire philosophy. That is the. What we call the mool. That's the root of all of this. And the simple way to understand it is you, me, every tree, every insect, every plant, every bird are all part of one thing. And the simplest way that the analogy gives it as though we're all waves in this huge universal ocean. The problem that you and I have as waves in this ocean is we are not able to recognize that we're connected to the ocean. We somehow look at one wave, looks at another wave and thinks, that's nothing to do with me. You are you and I am me. And Guru Nanak's philosophy is saying your biggest delusion is that you've forgotten that this is actually just one big thing called life. Life energy, call it what you want. And your. Your only purpose in life is to realize that you are part of it. And as human beings, all of us have forgotten, that is the fall from grace for mankind, is that we have forgotten our connection to this thing. We're all part of it. And your only goal and your only question you should be asking yourself is, what am I really? What am I? What is this? And in reality, this isn't me. This is life that looks like me. And the rest of the philosophy then tries to go into that and tries to get you back into that mindset of understanding, this isn't really me. This isn't really you. You and I are not having this conversation. It is life speaking to life. And once that switch happens within your mind, the amount of peace that brings into your life, the amount of stability, the amount of. Of emotional tranquility that brings into your life, which, let's be honest, is what every human being really just wants. Guru Nanak says that's the formula, is to forget that you're a separate individual and actually remember your true nature, which is you are part of that universal oneness. So oneness is the bedrock of this.
- [35:42]
A
Now, is that oneness God? Is that the way I would describe God? As, you know, sort of this, this intangible force that exists that sort of wills the entire universe to exist. When you're speaking about oneness, is that the same thing?
- [35:57]
B
Yeah. Yes, it is. It is God. But the one difference that the Guru would make is that this God isn't sitting in the clouds somewhere. It isn't an old man with a white beard sitting in the clouds. It's not a separate creator. This is God as well. Well, so the God isn't the creator who just created life and then just stands back and watches the people just doing whatever they want. This is God. God became manifest into all of this stuff. God is the plants, God is the earth, God is the water, God is the sky. There isn't a distinction between creator and creation. Creator and creation are one. Because the bedrock of this philosophy is oneness. So. So anytime that there is a question that introduces duality, you've strayed away from Guru Nanak's way of looking at life. He's saying, nope, there's no two. There is no God and me. This is all God. In fact, there is no me. There is only God here. The only difference is you and I. We don't remember that. We have ignorance. We have forgotten that this is all God. The status for all human beings is to realize our godly nature, that we are really part of that God nature. So you're absolutely right. But we don't contextualize, we don't compartmentalize God as this one separate thing. Everything is God.
- [37:22]
A
Can you define that term, duality?
- [37:24]
B
So duality just literally means two. And this wisdom is the tradition of non duality. No. 2. Anytime that you have a conversation which creates an opposite me and you, high and low, up and down, happy and sad, you've entered into a falsehood. And the falsehood is that there are separate things here. The antidote to that is to keep reminding yourself there's nothing separate here. This is it. This is that oneness. It just looks like many different things. And a wonderful way that I like to think of it is, is you are God pretending to be you.
- [38:07]
A
Because we've forgotten.
- [38:08]
B
Because we've forgotten.
- [38:09]
A
Now, I like the philosophy and I think many people listening to this, they go, oh, that sounds great. But then many people will look around, specifically skeptics will look into the world and they see so much evil. And there's war and there's children dying of cancer. Just the most unimaginable, unfair things, even in a fairly minute level, like someone stealing money from me, or a guy cutting me off on the road or being rude or, you know, an animal eating another animal. And there's a brutality to it and something so primal. How do I square this philosophy of oneness and God existing at all times in all things, manifest in this life, with also just so much evil and decay that also exists in the world?
- [38:49]
B
So this philosophy simplifies it down to evil is a cause of us forgetting. When I forget that you and I are part of the same thing, when I forget that you're my brother, when I forget that you and I are from the same universal parent that gives me the right to say, hey, I can steal from that guy. I can cause harm to that person. So all of it stems from forgetting. All of it stems from me being lost in my own ego, my own sense of self importance. That is the cause of all of these kind of conflicts that have existed throughout human history. Like human. This is literally how humans are. We are all in this state of forgetfulness. And that is then the outcome of all of this forgetfulness is all of this evil. But you also introduced just even something simple as animals eating animals. The wisdom doesn't put ego into anyone else except humans. They say humans have forgotten. Everyone else is just acting out their natural tendencies. So it doesn't look at a lion eating a gazelle as evil. It just sees that as this is the way the system is. This is how life is. Life depends on life. It doesn't distinguish between eating animals or eating plants. Like, there's no hierarchy there. They're like, hey, a lion has to eat the goat and a goat has to eat the plants and the grass and the herbs and the plants. So. So this is the natural system. Our job is not to keep asking questions like, why is life like this? Why is life like this? The goal is for us to take a step back and say, oh, this is what life is. It doesn't matter whether you label something as evil or you label something as good. The reality is life is going to do what life is going to do. You're only causing your own misery. Every time you conflict with life, every time you think life is not meant to be this way, I've got a better idea of how the universe should work. That's your ego coming back in again. And peace, tranquility, not just for yourself, but for the whole of mankind, comes when we can actually experience some sense of inner peace ourselves. Look, why would all of this kind of trouble exist? It would only exist because people are coming from a state of inner conflict. People are not at peace with themselves. So then they go and cause harm and misery to other people, thinking that if only I take. If I have what he has, then I'm gonna feel better. But if you can learn how to have inner peace within yourself, that has that trickle effect, that's gonna ripple all across the world, and everyone's gonna be at peace if they learn how to be at peace within themselves.
- [41:37]
A
That's an interesting way to phrase it. Thomas Aquinas writes about this in the Summa Theologica, where he describes the problem of evil. Evil. And he has many different sort of explanations and rationales for it. But one is kind of what you just said, that by looking at, like, you know, a line eating a gazelle in the micro and in the sort of, I guess, time finality of that event. It is brutal. But it's only if you are assessing that one singular event that it seems like it's unhealthy. But if you look at the scope of the ecosystem, then you say the ecosystem is actually operating in a healthy way.
- [42:11]
B
Yeah.
- [42:11]
A
So you can think of, like, your parents dying as this traumatic, terrible thing, which it is, but it is also the natural order of how the ecosystem works. So in the micro and in the sort of finite, it is tragic. But in the macro, it is perhaps evidence of a healthy ecosystem that is operating the way it should be.
- [42:28]
B
Yeah, I love that. That's beautiful.
- [42:29]
A
Yeah. It's an interesting kind of crossover. But I wonder if people hear this and they go, okay, this is nice, but what about, like, resource scarcity, Right? Like, you and I are in the woods somewhere, and there's been some cataclysm. And perhaps you and I both know that we are of this divine nature and that we are manifest from this oneness. But we're both starving, and there's only one piece of food left. My obligation is to take care of my family, and I want to take care of my children and my wife, and you want to do the same. And so now we're in a conflict. How do we resolve this conflict?
- [43:03]
B
The only way that we would be in conflict is if we forget that you are also my family. You're my family. I have no more allegiance to my wife and children than I do to you, you and your family. Every time you create an opposite, you've forgotten the golden rule of oneness. And if we find ourself in that kind of a situation and we're coming from that higher place, I think two enlightened masters that are coming from that higher place, they would offer the food to the other person, because I'm offering it to you as my God. I see God in you. Why would I want to eat? If there was a choice between me and God, who would I want to feed? I would feed you because I humble myself. I lower myself to you. I would put my needs lower than your needs. That's if two enlightened masters who are really well programmed in this way of thinking, I think would act from that way. But we don't act like that. We're all lost in our egos, of course, and we have our family members breathing down our necks saying, hey, hey, go and get that piece of bread. Because that's human nature. That's how it is. One thing we try not to do within this tradition is to even demonize the very natural state of the ego. It's just there. We're not trying to demonize it. It's not a Satan for us. It just is. It's a normal human tendency. The question is, can we elevate ourselves above our animal instincts, or do we just act like animals? And I think a lot of the times we realize most people are not that different to animals. Every animal also mates, we also mate. Every animal also rears children and builds a little home and a little life for himself. We think we're so superior to animals. Most people are acting like no different to any animals, except we just drive a car and live in a fancy apartment.
- [44:52]
A
Right. And I think maybe this is a helpful place to kind of parlay this idea of the Saint Warrior. I think it's the khalsa. Correct?
- [45:01]
B
Yeah.
- [45:01]
A
That I think this all sounds very pacifistic in a way where it's to say, like, okay, well, I will give this to you, and even if that means that I might starve, it's better to serve you in this moment than to feed my ego and try to help my ego persist. But there's a very long tradition within Sikhi history that is still very much in defense and of self preservation and of protection. So can you explain, in case of a war or in the macro or even in the micro where someone's trying to attack me or attack my family, do I see the God in them and say, okay, I know that you've forgotten this oneness, but I'll permit this? Or do I stand up and fight back and defend myself?
- [45:43]
B
So as the philosophy presents itself as being this one of oneness around serving everyone, seeing everyone as part of one thing, we also have to look at the historical context that you're living at. A time where there was no police. You can't dial 911. There's no one that you can call when somebody's coming and tearing your house down. So this community of spiritual practitioners within the Sikh tradition realized that it's not good enough to just be pacifist, that sometimes the situation presents itself in such a way and you realize no one's coming to help. Time now requires us. The moment the situation presents itself in such a way, that requires us to stand up and fight. Not because you're my enemy, because the right thing for me to do, the truthful, the best way to live is for me to protect the people who deserve protecting. And so the Khalsa came up as a warrior. Add on to this philosophy, which is, how do we take this philosophy and not just sit in a mountain and just meditate all day? How do we use this philosophy to really put our money where our mouth is and really kind of place that tradition really in the world? How do we prove that this wisdom works on all scenarios? And that warrior element came up which said, when the tough times come, no matter who needs defending, it wasn't about self defense. It was about no matter who needs defending. If I truly have no ego, if I truly see you as my brother, I shouldn't be able to sit back and watch you being attacked. I should put myself in front of that. And so there's. We can sit here and have amazing conversations about losing the ego. Nothing is gonna kill your ego bigger than actually being tested in that moment to say, go on, then, show me. Show me whether you can really prove it. And I think that's where that Karlsa mentality came in that says, hey, you think you know this philosophy now? Live it. Prove yourself. Are you willing to fight for everyone's freedom? And I think for me, the Sikh community that developed over time was that warrior tradition that were willing to put themselves on the line, risk their own lives, because they genuinely saw everyone as their own brothers and sisters.
- [48:08]
A
So is there ever a moment where death is permissible within this philosophy? Where if someone is attacking you and they have a weapon, can you kill them? How does that staunch commitment to oneness and pacifism intersect with the most dramatic outcome, like a war or a grave danger?
- [48:25]
B
Yeah. So this wisdom has a very healthy relationship with death. It talks about death a lot. There's a lot about it. And one of the things that it teaches is death is coming for everyone. I don't have the right to take anyone else's life away. I don't make that choice. But the truth of the matter is everyone is gonna lose their life. This is a losing game. Everyone loses at the end. It's like that universal oneness. God has decided the rules of the game, that everybody loses it. And in this moment, if you're coming to attack, death might just be coming for you. Right now, we don't have a. We're not squeamish about death, but we're also very, very protective over life. Life. We are very comfortable with the idea that everybody is going to die, but we're also very, very rigid on the idea that everybody deserves to live. And it's this perfect balance between those two, what seemed like very opposite ideas. And that says that justice, fairness trumps everything. That is higher than everything. Being truthful, living a truthful way, living in a way that proves that you really see oneness in all sometimes even requires getting rid of an enemy who is not willing to allow that justice to unfold. So we have that kind of very healthy relationship with death, right?
- [49:53]
A
Yeah. I think that might be helpful for people because they might hear this and they go, like, you know, if someone's attacking me, like, I'm going to kill them. Like, if someone's trying to hurt my family, like, I will do whatever it takes to mitigate that threat 100% for me, on a personal basis, like, I wouldn't want to take someone's life, but if that is what is necessary to protect my family, then I think myself, like anyone else in that position, would do the same thing.
- [50:14]
B
Yeah.
- [50:14]
A
And I wouldn't want to. You know, I don't want to be disrespectful to the human dignity that all people are entitled to.
- [50:20]
B
Yeah.
- [50:21]
A
But also, I need to do what I have to do.
- [50:23]
B
Yeah.
- [50:23]
A
And it's interesting that there's this kind of. That sort of relationship with. With justice that I think is helpful.
- [50:29]
B
Yeah, I think it is. It is. It is. Sounds like it's conflicting. And even within yourself, you're saying, I do respect everyone's right to live, but if you're coming for me, I'm gonna defend myself. I'm gonna attack. If I.
- [50:45]
A
If you're not respecting my right and my human dignity, then you've kind of waived your right in that moment. I guess perhaps you can still have dignity. Like, I'm not going to torture you, or I'm not going to mutilate you, but I will neutralize this.
- [50:58]
B
Yeah. I'll put a stop to the harm. So what you notice is what you're saying is a very human, human impulse that says you do have the right to your own humanity, but you don't have the right to take mine away. And it is that balance between those two things, which is what this philosophy also talks about. So it's actually quite a natural, natural state.
- [51:19]
A
I want to know more about the ego and how the ego plays a role in my life and in the life of everyone that's listening and what it would take to try to detach myself from that ego, especially in the face of. Of pain and trauma and all the things that the ego tries to protect itself from. So I guess maybe just ego 101. Can you explain what you mean when you talk about the ego?
- [51:43]
B
Yeah, I think the way we use ego in kind of modern English language is very much around someone who's being egotistical, somebody who is just. Who has a bit of a superiority complex. The Sikh wisdom doesn't define ego in that way. It defines it as. As I amness, the illusion that you think you are, that is the root cause of all misery. That is the root cause of the reason why your life isn't going right. The reason why you feel unfulfilled. No matter what you attempt, and whatever goals you try and set yourself and you achieve them, you still feel unfulfilled is because of this I am Ness. I am me, me, the me, me, the myself. That idea is so deep rooted within you that your ultimate goal is to try and break that the I am ness, and go back to that analogy. It's the wave believing that it's separate from the ocean. It's the delusion that it thinks it's separate, it actually isn't separate from the ocean. And when you present it in that way, if you or I were at the seaside at the coast and I say, is that wave separate from the ocean? It's so obvious, you'd say, that's a dumb. Of course it's part of the ocean. In fact, there is no wave. There's just the ocean in different shapes. That's what the wisdom is saying about us, that there is no you here right now. It's not just a superiority complex, this ego. It's just the very idea that you think you are here as something separate. Your separateness from everything else is what the myself, the I am Ness, is that the spiritual masters in the Sikh tradition are trying to get you to understand the ultimate human disease is your sense of separateness from everything else. And the solution to world peace and all these things, and inner peace is just Getting rid of that, it's difficult
- [53:37]
A
to do, though, because my entire lived experience is at odds with that wisdom. My whole lived experience is that I am myself. I am my body, in a way, and I am my soul. I am my brain. My thoughts are my own. I'm the only one that thinks them. When I think to myself, I'm the only person that's in the there. So you can't know what I'm thinking right now. So there is a disconnect from us. So then for you to say, oh, we're all the same, and we're all of this oneness, it feels like there's a mismatch. And my lived experience is more compelling than this wisdom.
- [54:08]
B
Yeah.
- [54:09]
A
So how do I square that in my own life?
- [54:11]
B
So this is where it gets really interesting. The wisdom actually understands how you got to this position. Why is your lived experience like that? And it says that your mind is a labeling machine. The reason you feel separate from everything else is nothing more than a set of thoughts that keep reinforcing this idea that I am me. And again, this is a very natural human phenomenon that happens within the human psyche. So I actually look at these teachings as psychoanalysis more than I see it as a religion. It is a breakdown on how the human mind actually works. And so what it says is, your mind repeats a story to itself. You wake up in the morning. The easiest way to understand is when you wake up in the morning. Notice how your mind works. What's the first thing you do? You start thinking about all of the things that you have to do today. What day is it today? Oh, today's a Wednesday. I have to do this. Then I gotta go. I'm gonna drop my kids to school. Then I have to do this. And, oh, let me check social media. Let me see if anyone said anything good about me. Someone has said something bad about me. What's going on is your mind is simply just. It has a narrative that's going on all the time. The guru recognizes that this and says, that's the problem. The antidote to that is not to silence your mind, but to refine your mind is to actively notice that your mind is doing this all the time and then interrupt that constant mental chatter that's going on. That's the way that you get rid of your ego. Your ego actually doesn't exist. It's just a mental construct that you've lived with your whole life that you don't even notice it. It's the thing that when you're driving on the Road and someone cuts you up and you immediately, your mind just starts looking at someone else and says, oh, he did this or he did that and start swearing at them. Or, you know, when you're in a room and someone walks in that you don't like that mental chatter that goes, oh, not that guy again, or he owes me money or he did this to me. That mental chatter that's going on all the time is something that is unconscious to us when we don't even know that it's going on. We believe all of those thoughts that are firing in our mind. Mind. The guru recognizes that that's where the problem is manifesting. And so the solution is also something there. So the solution isn't. In this tradition, go pray a certain number of times or go to this holy place or baptize yourself or go to. It's like, it's none of those things. It says, fix the problem that's going on in your mind. The problem is in your mind. And the solution is also going to have to. It's a game that you have to play in there.
- [56:42]
A
Hey, guys, we're going to take a break really quick because I want to talk to you about gld. This is an awesome new company that we're working with. I am actually wearing right now. I actually got this crucifix right here. And honestly, even just getting it, you know, sometimes, like when you work with some companies, you're like, all right, I really hope the product is good. This one is. I. I wear it all the time. This is actually like the new crucifix. I lost my last one at a bath house, literally, at a sauna. I lost my cruise effects, which is maybe God's way of telling me something. But I got a new one from GLD and I've been rocking it non stop. My wife likes it and it's got, like a nice weight to it. It. The details actually look better in person. The clasp is, like, super solid. It doesn't feel like something you bought, like, in Times Square from a random dude. It doesn't feel like something you order from, you know, some sketchy website on teu. And they got everything, chains, pendants, bracelets, watches. Whether you want something subtle or something that's like, yo, I just. I just signed a deal. You know what I mean? If you want, like the record deal chain, they got that too. Now, if I haven't convinced you yet, let me sweeten the deal a little bit. All right? For a limited time, the listeners of this program, Camp Gagnon, Religion Camp history camp, and the entire camp universe, you're getting a crazy deal. If you use the code Camp C A M P When you check out, you're going to get 40% off your entire order@gld.com that's 40% off your whole order with the code camp at checkout@gld.com and after you purchase, they're going to ask where you heard about gld. Tell them you heard about them from, you know, the good folks here at the campsite Mark and Christo sent you. And whenever you do that, it really helps, you know, support the show. And thank you so much to GLD D and thank you to you for tuning in. Let's get back to the show. Hey, guys, if you love conspiracies and hypothetical history, well, I want to invite you to check out signal 33. This is a companion pod to our podcast here at camp. It's made and edited by the same team that runs all of our shows. And I choose the topics every single week. So check it out, subscribe and start the dialogue in the comment section. Now, many people probably listening, thinking, well, my ego is healthy, helpful in many ways. My ego protects me. My ego encourages me. It promotes me in the world. I'm able to climb my career. Maybe I'm able to be a better father because my ego says, you are the best dad. So now the outcome of my ego is actually a really positive thing because I've taken on this duty and this obligation to be a great parent. So are you saying that the ego is inherently bad or just that the ways that the ego manifests can be bad? Much of the time, what the ego
- [59:08]
B
is doing, yes, it might be able to make you successful. It might be able to help you achieve lots of things in life, but ultimately, every human being is miserable. That's just the biggest truth that I've learned from this wisdom is we're all miserable. We're all really good at putting on a mask in front of the world and saying the biggest lie that we tell people when they ask you how you say, I'm fine. That's the biggest lie out there. And this teaching tells you, yes, you could be successful. Yes, you could be a great parent. Yes, you can be all of these things. You can be a great politician. You can, hey, hey, heck, you could be a royalty if you want to be, right? But you're miserable. The kings are miserable. The beggars are miserable. So the gurus don't care what you achieve in life because internally, you're not satisfied Every human being doesn't want to be rich, they want to feel rich. They don't want to be successful, they want to feel successful. So we think the way to achieve it is to go out in the world and collect a whole bunch of stuff and achieve lots of things. But how many billionaires are out there in the world that are totally miserable? I'd say a lot of them. Right? How many of these influencers and celebrities that we're following online are actually truly at peace within themselves? That's the measure of success that society doesn't teach us. Society teaches us just go out and do a whole bunch of stuff, and then at least you can mask all of the misery that's going on within your mind. At least you can look successful. The spiritual masters are saying, I don't want you to look successful. I want you to be at peace. And this is the game of being at peace.
- [60:47]
A
Is it possible to still be suffering from the delusion of oneness and to still be attached to your ego. Ego and still also have peace?
- [60:56]
B
No. Ego and peace are at odds with each other. The I am ness, the separateness is always going to come back and bite you. It's always going to come up with something new to make you miserable by. So it's going to say, hey, I think I'm at peace. My life is pretty good. But you don't have this. It's always going to be attracted by something in the outside world.
- [61:16]
A
Maybe for a day or for a week, you have peace.
- [61:18]
B
Yeah.
- [61:19]
A
But when you're talking about peace, you're not talking about, oh, I feel good this morning. You're talking about this long lasting, fundamental peace that undergirds your existence.
- [61:26]
B
Yeah. It's the kind of peace that doesn't require you to book the next vacation just so that you can feel good for a couple of days and then come back to your miserable life or the job that you hate, or all these things that you have to do. It's about, how do you be in the world but at peace within yourself. Like this tradition totally rejects that you have to go and live in a cave. It's. It's not telling you not to be a parent. It's not telling you, don't get married, don't have a job, don't run a business. It's not telling you any of that stuff. It's saying, do all those things that normal people do, but do it with wisdom, do it with peace. And that's such an interesting challenge to set yourself is, can I be at Peace. One of the things I like to do when I kind of talk about these things is I tell people, can you be at peace for 24 hours? Hours. Just from now to. For the next 24 hours, can you notice? If you're not going to complain about anything, set yourself a challenge. 24 hours. I'm not going to moan about anything. And you notice. It's a beautiful thing to try and set yourself to do. You'll notice how easily your mind will complain about everything. Oh, it's too hot, it's too cold. Oh, there's too much traffic. Oh, it's this. Oh, he didn't do this, or she didn't do that. Your mind is doing that all the time. And what it does is it brings you back. It makes you responsible for your peace. And what do we do is we think they're responsible for why I'm miserable. It's because you didn't do this, or she didn't do this, or this isn't happening, or. I call it the if only list. We always have this if only list. If only I had this, then I'll be happy. If only I had that. There's always gonna be an if only. The reality is, the outside world isn't the cause of your misery. Misery. It's the inside world that's the cause of your misery. And that's what this tradition really beautifully does, is it brings the responsibility back to you that says, can you now work out a way to navigate life where no matter what's going on in the outside world, you're in control? You're the master of your own mind.
- [63:27]
A
Right. Which I think is such a powerful thing that so many people that I meet have frustrations about things that they can't control at all. Which is such a shame. Whether it's like, oh, my childhood wasn't good enough, my family wasn't rich enough, my government sucks, whatever the thing is. Which are maybe legitimate gripes and very real issues. But this philosophy says, well, you can now take agency in your own life about how you deal with that. I don't know who said it, but it's just this idea of tending to your garden that I think is just a great sort of heuristic that I kind of take on. Where I say, okay, what can I control? Mother Teresa says, the best way to change the world is to love your family. Which to me, the way I interpret that is like, okay, what are the things within my scope that I can actually take agency over, that I can really make a change in so maybe I can't change the politics or the philosophy of some world leader that's waging war, but I can change the mindset, or at least maybe nurture the mindset of my child or maybe help my wife with something that she struggles. And that feels way more comforting to me because now I can actually do something. I'm not just sitting here in this woe is me victimhood kind of cycle, just saying, like, it's not fair. And now I can do something, which for me is very, very motivating.
- [64:40]
B
There's a mantra that I really love, which is, I may not be able to change the world, but my response is my responsibility. How I respond to the world, that's on me. But I don't know. There's always gonna be something in the world that I can't control. Control.
- [64:55]
A
Right.
- [64:55]
B
But my response is my responsibility.
- [64:58]
A
And maybe that answers the next thing that I was curious about, because sometimes frustration and discontentment can be really great. Right? Like, I'm maybe, you know, hundreds of years ago, there's a woman that's, you know, or maybe, I mean, in certain places of the world today, there's a woman that's walking two miles to a well to go get water, and then she has to walk all the way back, and she's exhausted, and it's tiring. And my frustration at seeing this, to see a woman struggling to get water for her family. I say, we need to build a well here, or we need to develop a water system to get water to this village. And so now my frustration with the nature of reality has improved the reality for so many people in the village that I get water to. So is that a situation where discontentment is helpful or my frustration or my complaints are helpful, or is that a different way to interpret complaints and discontentment?
- [65:45]
B
Yeah, I think you've articulated it really well, that it does breed innovation and change and positive influence in the world. World. But the only difference that this philosophy would say is, can you be at peace knowing that there are things that need to be changed in the world? So you notice that situation, you recognize that you have the ability to solve that problem, and then you see the beauty in how life has given you the agency, the ability to go and solve that problem in that whole drama, can you be at peace that say, wow, that's a beautiful thing, that life has given me the opportunity to recognize a problem and given me the mindset and the ability to go and do something about it. So it isn't about not doing anything in the World. This wisdom about accepting life as it is isn't about inaction. It's about doing action with peace. Being in inner harmony and still being active in the world world.
- [66:49]
A
Yeah, that makes sense. Like having the inner peace undergirding everything. So whether I can fix this water problem or not, I can still be at peace. And I will try my best to do it. And perhaps I fail, but I can still be at peace because I am ultimately at a. I'm at peace knowing that I'm in this oneness.
- [67:08]
B
Yeah. Yeah. That I am a part of life that is just unfolding. There's a beautiful analogy with. Within the version of Hindu tradition that actually you sometimes see an image of Lord Krishna and he's playing a flute. And actually, that's a depiction that you are the instrument and life is flowing through you. You're the flute, and Krishna is playing its music through you. So be the flute of life. You don't get to control what the song is that's gonna be played. You're just allowing yourself to be played as another character in this story of life.
- [67:44]
A
I like that because I was just talking to a friend of mine that was asking me, like, how to deal with frustration and pain around people that they're close to. So they're like, you know, my sister, my friend did something rude to me or they're mean to me. Do I just continue to pour into them? Do I continue to love them like that? That frustration, that resentment continues to build. And the thing that I thought of was this idea of Dharma like the duty that we all have. And my duty is not to be transactional and to only help people that are good to me. My duty is to be like a tree where the tree's duty is to grow and to produce fruit. And that is what its job is. And I don't know if the tree is angry that the rain didn't fall or that the branches weren't pruned. The tree just is. And it just continues to do its duty regardless of what happens. Someone might take a big chunk out of the tree, tree, and it continues to produce fruit. And it may even produce fruit for the very person that took the chunk out. But it continues to exist. And I try to apply that to my life where I say, my duty is try to serve people and try to help people around me. And that is kind of a personal obligation that I've taken on. And I just do that sort of regardless of how I'm treated. Which I think sometimes people see as a weakness where they say, like, oh, people have scorned you or they've wronged you, and you just continue to help help them. And maybe to an extent, I would remove myself from the situation if it is so dire. But if it's my family or my close friends that I really love, I try not to internalize what they've done to me as a personal affront. I just try to say that is your human nature in the way that my human nature has been that exact same thing at times. And when I'm in a place where I'm more peaceful, perhaps I try to just embody whatever that duty is. Does that line up with the Sikhi tradition, or is there a caveat you would make?
- [69:34]
B
Yeah, I think for me, what's really interesting about the oneness way of looking at life is that it starts to recognize that we're not even in control of how we respond to life. We're not even in control of what situation we're in. So when you look at somebody who has wronged you and who's acting in a way that maybe crosses cruel, what you realize is they are nothing more than a product of their conditioning. You haven't walked their life. You don't know their story. You don't know their upbringing and their influences. So what it does is it allows you when you can take a step back and recognize that even that person doesn't know what they're doing. I love referring back to Christ on the cross and says, oh, Lord, forgive them. They don't know what they're doing. And I think that's so beautiful because it's basically saying, even they don't know what they're doing doing. They're just a product of their conditioning. When you can look at everyone in that way and see yourself in that way. What you say is, life is just playing all these different characters. And today this character happens to be stepping on my toes. You mentioned the word Dharma, and I think the best definition that I've heard of Dharma is the right action at the right time in the right way.
- [70:53]
A
The right action at the right time in the right way way.
- [70:56]
B
And what that means is there isn't a fixed way that you need to be. You don't need to say, hey, my job is always to serve. Because you also said, but actually, at some times, I might need to hold that back. And at some times, I might need to just distance myself, myself from you. So the best definition I've ever heard of Dharma is to just what is right in this moment now, what is the right thing for me to do. It isn't just a. A blanket rule that you get to apply and say, I'm always gonna act in this way. I'm always gonna act in how this wisdom is gonna guide me at this moment and at this moment. And that allows you that degree of flexibility that says, in this moment, it's for me to be compassionate to you. But in another moment, I might need to actually call you up on what you're doing and say some harsh words to bring you back in line.
- [71:45]
A
Right.
- [71:45]
B
So it's not about just having a one size fits all philosophy. Dharma is what is right right now.
- [71:54]
A
Yeah. It's interesting because in having a child, it's kind of separated me from my ego more, I think. And it's also helped me parent myself in the way that I parent my son. So if he's doing something that I don't like, that's dangerous, that I think is bad, I don't chastise him or try to make him feel bad. Because he's only like, 19 months, 20 months old. He doesn't understand. I'll just remove him away. And in the same way, if someone is rude to me or does something cruel to me, I don't harbor. Or at least, I mean, I really try not to harbor a negative sentiment towards them. But I will remove myself where that can't happen anymore. And maybe there's a communication distance, but I'm not. I don't look at them with anger. And it's something that I think is kind of talked about in the Catholic tradition a lot that I really like is just praying for your enemies. This is a thing that I do that has been, like, really transformative. And I don't know if it's like. I don't know. To me, sometimes when I explain it to my secular friends, it's bizarre because every time that I pray for someone that has wronged me or that I've had a conflict with, within a period of months, it's been rectified. And I don't know if this is the power of God or oneness or whatever we call that thing, but it's happened consistently. And I find it so bizarre. And it's one of the more, like, maybe supernatural things that's happened in my life where there's been like, four or five instances of this. And just through prayer, as I'm going to sleep throughout the day, just like God, I pray for this person. I hope that they're okay. I hope that they're not harboring guilt. And I'm not praying for me to be right. I'm not saying, like, God, I hope you showed this person how wrong they were for what they did to me. Just truly trying to say, I pray that they're okay and that their families are okay and that they're in peace. And for whatever reason, it's like, I'll get a text from someone that I was like, I hope I never see this person again because they're. Or pissed at me or whatever. And they go, hey, sorry for the way I was acting. I hope you're okay.
- [73:45]
B
Wow.
- [73:45]
A
Bizarre. And it's almost inexplicable, but it's happened consistently, and that's something that I do that I try to encourage my friends to do. Like, the person that you're the most angry at, the person that has done you the worst, just pray for them. Does that exist in this tradition or in this wisdom?
- [74:01]
B
The six. At the end of every ceremony, we have a standing prayer. And the last line of that standing prayer is, is we pray for the wellness of everyone. May everyone be well. If it is within your divine will, let there be wellness for everyone, for all beings. And that's so ingrained in how the sick looks at everyone else, which is you don't look down on anyone. You simply recognize that at this moment, they may be acting out of ego. But I wish wellness for you. You know, I think there's more to be discovered even in the science of how some of this works. Like, we don't really know the power of prayer in that particular way. And maybe what you're describing kind of fits in with, you know, quantum theory or something like that. Like, there is a way that me over here can impact something that's all over there. I think that actually works really well with this oneness philosophy, that we're all. All interconnected in a way that even we don't understand. And maybe science still is trying to work out how we're all connected. So I think there's probably a lot in this, and your anecdotes actually prove that there's something there.
- [75:14]
A
Right.
- [75:15]
B
It's happened time and time again. I think we just. Science probably just hasn't caught up with that.
- [75:19]
A
And I choose to believe that, like, these ideas of, like, synchronicities and things like that, they make me feel good, so I just kind of accept them. I don't really have a scientific basis for it. But it is interesting that even if you are not religious. Religious. I've seen studies on this. My friend Jason was actually just telling me about it that people that are secular, that truly just only believe in what is material. I only trust what can be measured. There is no God. This is all that there is through prayer. That they actually have higher self reported rates of self belief and optimism in humanity and desire to help. And that there's something in prayer, meditation, whatever that version is for you that I think all people should practice in some capacity, even if you're not religious, whatever that thing is. That's again, one of the reasons why I love doing the religion camp show is that I don't want to convert people to Catholicism. If that's the worldview that you like, and maybe the way I'm describing it is interesting, then so be it. But my feeling is like, just believe in God. Believe in whatever that force is in your life. So long as it was not a cult or something destructive, just believe in, in that thing and practice whatever that ethic is. And most of them kind of have similar sort of, I guess practices, whether it's like fasting or meditation or some type of communal component. And I think that those things for all people are so important for just your own personal peace.
- [76:42]
B
Yeah, I suppose the slight variation that I would take on that and what I try to embody in my own life is rather than just believe in God, it's is treat everything as though it was God. So even this conversation is God rather than God being a person. But there is some divinity and sacredness just in every single interaction that you're having. You know, so the people on the bus sitting next to you or you know, running out of groceries and needing to go do this, like every moment is just God unfolding. And that's really where the Sikh philosophy, the term Ik onkar oneness unfolding in every moment. It's like God is unfolding. The story of God is happening right now. Rather than someone looking down on creation. Start to treat life as though God. And you notice every interaction changes. Every person that you look at is as though you're looking at God. When I was young, there was a wonderful story that I learned and I must have heard it in school assemblies or something where this guy is praying and he prays to God and God says, I'll come to your home today. And so he starts like frantically, like tidy up his home and like God is coming today. And somebody knocks at his door and it's an old lady and it's raining outside and she says, hey, look, can you give me some shelter? And he's like, no, no, no, I don't have time for you. God is coming to my home. And a few minutes later, there's a young woman with a child saying, we don't have any bread to eat. Can you give us some bread? And he says, go away, I don't have time for you. God is coming to. And a third time, somebody knocks on the door and says, hey, look, I'm really struggling right now. Can I just sleep here for one night? I just need somewhere to stay. And he says, go away, I need to tidy up my home. God is coming. And at the end of the day, nobody else shows up. And he goes back and he prays and he says, God, you said you were coming, I was ready. And God says, three times I came to you and three times you turned me away.
- [78:39]
A
Wow.
- [78:40]
B
I treat everything as God and it changes how you look at life. That's really stayed with me.
- [78:45]
A
How do you deal with that in a society that does not see things this way? And that the very mechanisms of society are at odds with this? Right. Like, capitalism has given us so much in so many ways. And I'm grateful for capitalism certain aspects, but it is in so many ways also very exploitative of the human condition and of human dignity. So how do I, you know, let's say I'm hiring someone to, you know, mow the grass outside. And I'm like, how much is it? And I know it should be like, you know, 150, $200? And he goes, Ah, it's 2000. I go, well, that's not fair. Like, this is an absurd price. I'm not going to pay you that. But this is what he's asking, do I now negotiate? Am I. Should I just sort of accept that? Because he is God and money is. Shouldn't be important to me. But also the $2,000, it's a lot of money, but I could give it away.
- [79:36]
B
You know, you're being cheated anyway.
- [79:37]
A
And I'm being cheated. Like the instinct and my ego says, no, no, I want to pay the fair price price. And you are being unfair. But how do I square his divinity and God existing in that moment with me wanting to not get ripped off?
- [79:52]
B
So this wisdom is not going to give you the answer on how. What you should do in that moment. It's more about how do you treat that moment, how do you interact with that moment. You might come from a place like in that particular day, like you've just received this huge bonus or one of your investments has skyrocketed. And in that moment, A guy comes to you and says, It's 2000. For whatever reason, you could be in a very generous mood and you say, hey, normally I know that you're kind of screwing me over, but I wouldn't normally play it, but today I'm just going to give it to you. And there could be another day where you're actually struggling financially or whatever, and you just say, hey, I'm not going to play that game with you. I know what the fair market value is, and I'm only going to offer you this. It isn't really about what the outcome is. The question is, where are you in that moment? How are you treating that moment? Whether you choose to give the guy the full price or whether you choose to to just haggle. Look, I'm Indian. We love haggling. Like, that's like the number one thing. When you go to a store, never pay full price, right? It's not really about that. It's about, are you in a state of inner peace or are you coming from a state of inner conflict? Can you be at peace knowing I know the guy's screwing me over and in this moment I'm just gonna listen to my heart? What does my heart say? Oh, my heart says, don't pay. Okay, I'm not gonna pay? Or my heart says, hey, I don't know what situation he. Maybe he really needs it. Can I afford it? Okay, it's more than I would normally pay. I know that's not the right price. The difference is what tends to happen and how we normally tend to act is sometimes you don't like conflict. Like, I'm a person that I don't really like a lot of conflict and arguments. So I might just pay a little bit more. But then for the next three days, I'm complaining about it to everyone. Oh, that guy totally screwed me over. You can't sleep at night. I should have said this or watch when he comes next time I'm to going to do that. You're not in a state of inner peace. You're in inner conflict. This wisdom is about how do you be at peace with every moment? How do you practice peace at every moment? So it doesn't matter what you do in that situation, it's how you do it, which is more important.
- [81:58]
A
So a homeless guy comes up to me and says, hey, do you have $2? And I'm like, well, I know he's just going to spend it on drugs or alcohol or something. So no, I'm not going to give it to him. Is it less. I mean, using the same example, is it less about giving the money or not giving the money, but more the how I. The peace I feel in that interaction.
- [82:17]
B
Yeah.
- [82:17]
A
That perhaps I say no, but I still am treating him with human dignity and looking at him or maybe talking to him.
- [82:22]
B
Yeah.
- [82:23]
A
Or maybe I say, yes, and here's money and you can do whatever it is that you want with it.
- [82:27]
B
And that might change over time. You might walk away from that situation. Said, yep, I'm really happy with how I treated. I didn't give that guy money. And then you go home and then you realize, why did I do that? What's $2? I could have just given it to him. Why do I get to decide whether he's. What he's spending it on?
- [82:46]
A
I heard Imam talk about this. A leader of a Muslim mosque, I guess, and he said something great that I have applied to my own life where he talks about, oh, I don't want to give money to this guy because he's going to spend it on drugs or alcohol. But how often has God granted me with something and I've allocated it to something completely debaucherous or wrong? So if God is willing to pour into me and bless me and not
- [83:14]
B
judge me with how I'm going to use his blessings, right?
- [83:16]
A
And despite the fact that I've used it wrong time and time again and I'll continue to use it wrong in the future, who am I to judge him for the mistakes that he make or the mistakes that he made? Or. You know, there's a scam that happens in New York sometimes where someone will say, hey, can you buy me something from the corner store, the bodega? And so you buy them like paper towels. And he goes, oh, I really need these paper towels. Thanks so much. And the paper towels are $25. And you give him a whole roll and then you walk away. And then he goes back into the bodega and says, hey, can I return these? And they say, we'll buy them for 20 bucks. And so now the corner store gets a $25, they get their product back, and then the homeless guy gets $20. And then you got scammed.
- [83:52]
B
Right.
- [83:53]
A
But my philosophy is just kind like, of like, hey, I'm going to do what I think is right. And if you want to scam me, you can.
- [84:00]
B
I suppose the way I might look at that situation, look, nobody likes to be cheated, but in that situation, I would count my blessings that you didn't. Oh, divine. Oh, God, whatever. You didn't put Me in that life. I don't know how I would act if that was me in that scenario. And just count your blessings. At least I don't have to go and ask people for, hey, can you buy me this or can you buy me me that? You know, how blessed we are that we don't have to do that.
- [84:25]
A
Right.
- [84:25]
B
You know, and I also order something online and it just arrives the next day.
- [84:28]
A
Right. And I also don't blame him in the sense that, you know, people in desperate situations do desperate things. So maybe if I was in his situation, I would do the same exact thing. So at the end, I'm judging him without really knowing the situation that he comes from at all.
- [84:41]
B
Yeah.
- [84:42]
A
Now, when it comes to dissolving the ego, this is very. I think it's easier said than done. Done. But what ways could I start to try to dissolve that? Because it's something that's so ingrained in me, the idea of even beginning to get rid of that, it feels impossible.
- [84:58]
B
So my organization is called Nanak Naam. The first bit is the name of the founder. The second bit is the name of the technique. And the technique is called naam. Naam literally means name, what I call labels. Your mind is constantly labeling things, and I think we covered that a little bit before. And the technique is rather than going and trying to sit in some sort of yogic pose for several years and try and just silence your mind. This is a technique that's been developed for people, active, working, busy parents, and people who are in the world who are just unaware of their mental chatter, the noise that's going on in their mind. And what this wisdom recommends is, why don't you change the story that's going on in your mind? Why don't you change the labels that you're unconsciously applying to the world and start actively applying a new label to every person and every moment and every situation and everything that's in your life. And the label that you're going to apply is, this is also God. This is God. This is God. This is God. And that's your one technique. Do that all day, every day, in every moment, in every scenario, in every argument, in every blessing, in every pain that you receive in your life. This is God. This is God. This is God. And that is what this tradition tells you time and time again, is the one and only way to destroy your ego. Because the ego is caused by you repeating your own story in your mind. Now, you're going to actively interrupt that story and you're going to Start calling it for what it really is. I am not the wave. This is the ocean. This is the ocean. This is the ocean. Not even that I am God. Because there's an ego just in that you're not going to say, I am God. You're going to say, this is God, this is God. This is God. And what you do, if that becomes your habit, is it interrupts the this is me story that's going on in your mind. Me, me, me. That's kind of going on. The myself story that's going on all the time, which we all do. You interrupt that, you override that. And the wisdom is just saying the one thing that you need to do. No matter where you are, no matter what you're doing. Start to actively create a mantra within your own mind that is saying, thank you, God. Thank you, thank you. This is God. This is God. This is God. And that can be done using whatever name for God that you have, whatever word for God. If it's Allah, if it's Krishna, if it is God, if it's consciousness, if it is the universe. For the atheist, if it is just life energy, energy, makes no difference what word you use. But you start to just realign your thinking away from duality. This is me, this is you. I am good, you are bad. Which is how your mind is constantly labeling the world into this is. This is you. This is you. This is you. O divine. You, O divine universe. Thank you, thank you. I always tell people, if you don't know how to do a mantra, just try for one hour to repeat the mantra. Three. Thank you. As you're just going about your day and you'll see how wonderful it is, how transformative it is, how much peace it brings into your life and how doable it is. Sometimes you hear about these kind of practices and traditions and things and you think, oh, I don't want to inherit all of that. I don't want to do all of that stuff. I don't want to give my entire life to this religion. But this, I find, is so practical, it's so deep, doable. Whoever you are, wherever you are, whatever you're doing, just actively start to relabel things in your mind, relabel the world that you're in. And what you'll realize is that can very quickly start to bring in this immense inner peace within your own mind. Because the conflict is being created in your mind. The solution is also being created in there. And your ego starts to dissolve because you're not now feeding the ego with your Own strength story. You rightly said. Ego is one of the hardest things to do. By the way, I'm making it sound really simple, but what you'll notice when you start to do this is your ego always comes back in and says, yes, yes, I know this is God, but not that guy. That guy still owes me money. That guy's evil. Some things are just unanimously evil. Some things are just definitely wrong. And yes, there is this terrible things going on in the the world, but we're not talking about a God who only does good things. We're talking about God who does all things. A mantra that I love is, all is good because all is God. Can you fall in love with a God who is the creator of all things good and all things chaotic? Because the ocean is sometimes tranquil, and sometimes it's. Sometimes it's chaotic, sometimes it's really, really difficult. You get these storms. And, you know, I love going on cruises. And one of the things that you always pray for is that it's gonna be a smooth ride. But you know that the universe, the ocean is uncontrollable. You don't judge it. You just prepare for it. You just make sure that you understand this is how it is.
- [90:11]
A
Yeah, it's just so difficult. It's easy for me in my everyday life. More so, I guess, in relativity. It's still. I mean, I've faltered countless times, even in the past. Past 30 minutes, probably in this conversation. But, like, if someone does something to me, it's easier for me to be like, okay, I can let this go. I can move on. Because for whatever reason, when it's myself, I can kind of. I can assess myself and say I'm okay. You know, what this person did was wrong. And maybe they try to fight me, maybe something bad happened, but I'm okay. And so therefore, everything's all right. But then I'll see, like, a guy that's on, you know, in a courtroom for having done the worst possible crime, whatever it is you can imagine against a child, something so horrific, horrendous. And then the judge says, you're sentenced to the death penalty. And there's a part of me that's rejoiceful, that's like, yes, like, that is what this guy deserves because he did something so horrible. And I'm a Catholic. I don't even really support the death penalty. But still, in that moment, I go, good.
- [91:06]
B
Justice was said.
- [91:07]
A
What this guy did was so horrendous, or he's in prison for the rest of his life. I Say good, that he deserves that. I mean, just irredeemable. And it's difficult, I think, for many people, myself mostly, to look at someone that does something so reprehensible and so say like, okay, well, there's God here and God is good. Again, I don't want this person to be tortured, but if they were tortured, I wouldn't care that much, you know, like. And I don't know what to do with that feeling. And it's in the way. That feeling is ugly, but it's also so ingrained, I think, in human beings.
- [91:37]
B
Yeah.
- [91:38]
A
How would. What. What would the wisdom say to that?
- [91:40]
B
I think the. The wisdom makes it very clear that God isn't just good. This whole idea that God is good and all the bad things are done by people, or it's done by Satan or it's done by something else. I think that is just another duality. That's what this wisdom goes back to saying, actually, it's all one. And you may not be able to understand it, you may not be able to be comfortable with it, but it is part of the bigger picture of life. I mean, it goes back to the analogy that we were talking about earlier about the lion eating the gazelle. On the. The micro level, it feels painful to observe, but if you zoom out, it's just how nature is unfolding itself. If you look at war and dictators and all of these terrible things that are going on, yes, it's painful to watch. But when you zoom out, you realize, oh, life has always been like this. There's always been conflict in the world. There's always been dictators. There have always been evil people doing horrible, horrible things. So am I gonna sit here and say this is wrong, or am I gonna wise up and mature up and realize this is life? This is life. Whether it looks good, whether it looks pretty or not, this is what life is like. The only question I then have to ask myself is, what role do I play in this life? And sometimes, and this is the problem with social media is we now have access to all things happening in every corner of the world. We get to see all, all of it. And we're, in a way, very unfortunate compared to our parents and our grandparents generations, where they were blissfully unaware of some of these things. It's in our face. You wake up all the time and you're holding onto your device and you're watching it, you're causing this chaos. Now it's good to be aware of the things that are going on in the world, but A lot of the times we're just doing it because it's just drama. We're not actively doing anything about it. So why are you creating this chaos and your life?
- [93:39]
A
Right. It's kind of voyeuristic just to consider.
- [93:41]
B
Could be, yeah.
- [93:42]
A
But. Yeah, I don't know. There's a part of me that, I guess that is struggling with this idea that God does bad. It's difficult for me to accept that, like the idea of a lion eating gazelle, I say, okay, well, these are lower vibrational beings. They don't have free will and consciousness in the way that you and I have. So I expect less. And I sort of accept that that ecosystem exists sort of separate from the ecosystem that human beings kind of habitate. But when I look at like a guy that's, you know, in a courtroom for having done these terrible crimes to children, it's difficult for me to say, like, well, what this guy did was somehow manifest of God. As a Catholic, it's easier for me to say what he did was devoid of God and in that void is evil. And when God is not, you know, present in that behavior, that what fills it is evil. And the way that darkness doesn't really exist, it is the absence of light, that God is light that fills all things that God touches. But in moments like this, there is a disconnect from God. And in that disconnect, the evil manifests. And I can square that in my mind. And it's a bit more sort of dualistic, but it makes me feel better than accepting that there's a God that permitted or enabled this type of crime to occur.
- [94:57]
B
Yeah, and I think you're absolutely right that when evil is caused, it is when people are, are separate from their godly nature, they're devoid of that. You're absolutely right. But on the grand scale, for me, this is all part of God. This is all the game that is part of God's game. And I don't see God as someone distant that is just allowing certain good things to happen and bad things to happen. I suppose the oneness way of looking at it is, is if we place a person who's doing evil as devoid of God, as somehow God is absent in that moment. What we're basically saying is God is not omnipresent. God is not at all places and at all times. And the oneness way of looking at it is saying, isn't God also in this moment? God is also in this moment. We can label anything as bad and we should label certain things as Bad. And I think this is where we're talking about. We're constantly kind of splitting between the macro and the micro.
- [96:06]
A
Right, Right.
- [96:07]
B
And even that's a duality. Right. And in the grand scheme, everything is. Is God. But that doesn't mean that we do nothing about it or we just think that everything is great. Oh, fantastic. That guy did terrible things to kids. Oh, great. You know, let's. Let's just not do anything about that. I don't think that's what we're saying. It's about internally recognizing this is also part of. Of that godliness, that divinity. So that's why, for me, God isn't a person or a being that's somewhere else. Everything is God. That's what that oneness philosophy is trying to get us to understand that God is in every moment and God is not just the good. And maybe the easier way to look at it is just maybe we take away the word God because that has its own connotations. When you think about God, you kind of. You create this human, like, character. And so what comes inherent with that is a limitation. God is good. God is only looking out for all of his people. God has chosen people. God does this like, let's just get rid of that word. Let's call it what it is. This is life. And in life, is there good and is there bad? Yes. Is there. There is. Is there kindness and is there cruelty? Yes, there is. It's all part of this incredible thing that you and I are a part of, which is called the game of life. Can you be at peace with the game of life, knowing at certain times you have to be active and certain times you can take a step back?
- [97:39]
A
Right.
- [97:40]
B
It's all part of the ocean of life.
- [97:41]
A
Hey, guys, we're going to take a break really quick because I'm on the road. That's right. My standup comedy tour continues at the end of this year, and I'm going to a bunch of cities. In October, I'm going to. To Plano, Texas. I'm going to Chandler, Arizona. In November, I'm going to Pasadena, California. I'm going to San Diego. And in December, I'm going to Detroit, Michigan. And in January, I'll be in Salt Lake City. I genuinely cannot wait to see you guys. I hang out after every single show. I would love to grab a photo with you and just chop it up and talk about the podcast life, whatever it is. So come on out, come hang with me, see the show, and say what's up afterwards. Now let's get back to the podcast. Is there in this philosophy a, I guess, a perspective on free will? And for Catholics and for Christians, broadly speaking, I think probably most Abrahamic religions, free will is so fundamental that we must have free will in order to justify the existence of our worldview. Does free will exist in the same way in Sikhi?
- [98:36]
B
So the only way to answer that question is to say when you want to have free will. Will. What does the free bit mean? It means I am free from God. Either God makes this decision or I make this decision. I'm free from God. I'm free from anyone else's influence. I am a self serving, fully capable person able to make this decision on my own. That's what free will means. As soon as you've done that, you've gone back into duality. I am free from God's influence in this moment. Moment. There are some things that God decides, like God decides who I'm going to marry and how many kids I'm going to have and when I'm going to die. But if I want tea or coffee, I make that decision. I'm free to make that decision. You've gone back into duality again. At that point, there's a God who does some decisions, but there's a me that does some decisions. And this philosophy says, there is no you. There is just a you who's forgotten that you're a part of God. Maybe an easier way to digest this is to say you believe you have free will in your own separateness. Yes, you have free will. Use your free will to do good things on a micro level. On a macro level, of course you don't have free will. Who are you free from? You're not even here. You're just another wave in the ocean. How can one wave be free from the ocean? That's why this analogy works so well, because you keep pointing it back to saying, does the wave have free will from the ocean? Can it independently do anything from the ocean? And it's like, no, of course it can't. Can you do anything independently from God? Of course you can't. Because you're not free from life. You're a part of life. Life is acting through you. Life is not doing things to you. Life is doing things through you. And in this moment, you might think, do I want a cup of tea or a cup of coffee? And you might think it feels like you're doing that independently from something, someone else. The reality is that's just life making that decision.
- [100:36]
A
Interesting. One of the things when I was doing the episodes on Guru Nanak was going through, really all the gurus was trying to understand how does this interface with maybe like moral quandaries or things that don't have a very clear binary. We've talked about someone committing reprehensible crimes and someone doing something good. I think it's easy for people to understand, but there's certain things that exist in society where, where it's like, well, is this good or not? Like euthanasia, for example, like someone being like, I have a terminal illness and I want to just, you know, take a medication and I don't, I want to cease to exist on this plane. As a Catholic, the Catholic tradition is, says that no, you, that shouldn't be allowed. That is not your right, I guess, to take your life in that way. Now when it comes to this type of philosophy, I don't know if there's really a. Because there's no centralized structure, structure to say like this is what we believe about euthanasia or abortion or anything else that's kind of morally gray. So how do these types of ethical issues that kind of intersect with political issues, how do they work within this wisdom?
- [101:44]
B
So within the Sikh tradition, everyone has agency to apply those teachings in their own lives. But that's not to say that there aren't institutions that try to create like a centralized answer to some of these questions. There are groups that try to set themselves up and say, hey, we're the definitive answer to this. We're gonna bring the best minds together and we're gonna try and work these things out. But that's just not how the 6 system is set up. We are all self sovereign beings. We can make our minds up about these things because who is one person to apply a generic rule for everybody across all times? It doesn't make it any sense. We should be able to say in this moment, this is the right way to deal with this. And so it gives you personal agency to work out how you solve these things. We don't need a centralized structure that says all people need to believe this and all people need to do this or do that. And I don't think that's healthy for how human societies evolve. In fact, it actually makes more sense for localized groups to just get together and say, guys, what do we need to do right now? Now those guys on that side of the planet are saying they're going to do that, but what do we need to do here? And it kind of localizes your decision making. And actually that's one of the things that was created within that khalsa was that what it recommends is get 5 people together who are all within this kind of philosophical framework and say you five are just as capable as any, as any guru or any master to decide what's right for you in this particular moment. So we don't try to create these kind of one size fits all blanket rules. It just says, no. You guys take the wisdom, read it, understand it, and apply it in whatever way makes sense to you.
- [103:27]
A
Interesting. The Amish have a version of this that's quite interesting. The Amish communities in Pennsylvania and parts of the Midwest, they have this thing. They're obviously an Anabaptist Christian tradition, like a sect of Protestantism. And so they believe in Jesus Christ and church and things like that. But they have this thing called the Ordonic or the Ordung. It's like a German word that literally means order. And basically, in every separate little Amish community, whether basically by, like, county all over the Amish world, whether it's in Florida or Ohio, they come together and they basically decide what new things they'll introduce into their culture. And so they say, all right, they just invented the car. Are we a culture that does cars? And some of them will say yes, and some of them will say no. And then they'll kind of create the, like, this kind of, I guess, like, hedge internally, where they're like, okay, well, you can ride in someone's car, but you can't own a car. And then they do this with every new technology that sort of comes out. And as a result, I mean, many of them have been very uniform, but there's a broad spectrum of Mennonite to New Order Amish to Old Order Amish, where they kind of have their own subtle differences. Yeah. Where they say, like, okay, well, you can have a flip phone or you can have a landline in your house, but you can't have a cell phone. You can't have an Amazon iPhone. And they kind of just created in their own little communities of like, 400 people in the town.
- [104:42]
B
Yeah.
- [104:43]
A
And it's kind of interesting because I'm like, oh, that's actually. It's sort of like voting in a local election.
- [104:47]
B
Yeah.
- [104:47]
A
You know, because you think that, you know, should everyone have a phone or should no one have a phone?
- [104:51]
B
Yeah.
- [104:51]
A
And you're like, well, this community, you know, they need a landline because technically the hospital's on the other side of the mountain, so it might be helpful. But our community, it's all very close. So we don't really need it. And they've kind of created this localized governing system for specifically around town technology, but a lot of things. And their first thought is, how does this benefit or I guess go against the community? Does it create a stronger community or does it create a more distant community? And as a result, they've rejected a lot of modern technology, but based on this principle of gathering together and rejecting things as far as it serves the community.
- [105:22]
B
And I think that's really progressive because what they're saying is that the rules aren't fixed. We need to move with the times. We need to work out at every moment, moment what, how we respond to whatever challenges life is throwing at us. And I think that's a really healthy way for all communities to live.
- [105:41]
A
Yeah, it's just an interesting sort of, I guess, microcosm of this kind of principle being applied. But it is tricky when you're living in a culture that again, doesn't exist in this way. I mean, America is maybe the most dualistic culture ever, like, even down to politics. It's like you have this side and this side. Which side are you going to follow?
- [105:59]
B
Yeah.
- [106:00]
A
So is it within the oneness worldview that you can pull yourself out of politics? Could you pull yourself out of these big national elections? Or, you know, do you have an obligation in some way? Like, is there a consensus amongst, you know, the different Sikh communities or even yourself personally? Like, how do you deal with something that is so obviously dualistic?
- [106:21]
B
I think this is where the Sikh tradition actually really throws, thrives, is that it learns very comfortably how to navigate between a oneness philosophy and the obvious duality of what life demands. And so you're constantly playing this game of understanding and seeing the whole world from the very wide oneness perspective, but also playing the game. And the way that I like to think about it is if you've ever played a game, a board game with a child, it's the difference between how the adult plays the game and how the child plays the game. The child is like, let's say you're playing Monopoly or whatever it is. The child is taking every move really seriously. Like they're looking at it and going, oh no, I've lost a piece there, or oh no, I'm gonna gain this there. And they're so emotionally invested in it. And the same game the adult is playing and looking at the child and going, hey, don't you know this is a game? And the adult knows that it's a game, but they're still playing it they're still participating in the drama of it all, but they're playing with a higher wisdom that says, I know none of this is real. What? The gurus within this tradition are looking at us and saying, hey, why are you taking life so seriously? Don't you know that this is also all just one big game? But it doesn't mean you pull yourself out, out of it. No, you actively participate in it, but you just do it with higher wisdom.
- [107:49]
A
I see.
- [107:49]
B
You play the game knowing that it's a game.
- [107:52]
A
Is this connected to the Hindu philosophy of the Maya? Like the illusion? Can you explain what that is and how that applies?
- [107:59]
B
So Maya is an ancient Indian philosophy that goes back tens of thousands of years that really just says the whole world is an illusion. What that means is it's not that it doesn't exist. It's not a mirage. It's not that it doesn't exist. It means that you yourself are deluded if you think that all of this really matters on the grand scale. So it doesn't mean that you don't earn money. It means that you earn money, but you know that it's transient. It doesn't mean that you don't have relationships. You have relationships, but you know that even that's transient. It doesn't mean that you don't look after your own well being and your health like, yeah, go to the gym and have nutritious food, but ultimately know that even this is something that you have to let go of. So Maya is looking at the whole material world and knowing that it's just something temporary, something that you have to engage with but not attach yourself, not be emotionally invested with.
- [109:01]
A
Yeah, I think it's a helpful, it's. I think it's helpful for me. I sometimes apply this to my life where, you know, things are going well and I go, well, you know, it doesn't really matter because it's all sort of an illusion anyway. And then things go poorly and I go, all right, well, maybe they'll spin around or maybe not. Like it's, I think, almost, I don't know, it's. Maybe people interpret it as like an apathy. But I don't, I don't know if I see it that way. I, I remember having, after having a child, it really transformed my perspective on a lot of this stuff and I think really made these ideas a lot more, I guess, palatable to me where I had this realization that all the things I love in life are free. Like my wife, she and I could live in a hut Somewhere our love is free. And my relationship with my son, it's free. And obviously things cost money, but if I really distill it down, it's all kind of free. Hanging out with my friends is free. Like the food that I like to eat, it's all natural, healthy, organic food. It grows on trees. It's technically free. Like, I just kind of kept on going through these things and just like sitting by myself, I was like, I don't really need anything. And so I still want to achieve things in my life and I still want to, you know, make money and, you know, have a lifestyle. But if it all went away, I think I would be okay. Because at the end of the day, every nothing I really need costs anything. And of course there's technical issues with the worldview, but I don't know, maybe I was kind of like back ending into this idea of oneness, that maybe if I go a step further and say the love that I have for my wife isn't even two separate things, it is just the communication of oneness. And my child and I, it is just oneness and we're all one thing. And ultimately communicating and interfacing with oneness doesn't require money or status or anything.
- [110:48]
B
I don't think that's apathy. I feel. To me, that's just like a help, healthy detachment. It's knowing that these things are not necessarily the things that are going to bring you joy, but actually some of the simplest things in life are the things that bring you joy. But also knowing having a healthy detachment to those things and knowing even this won't last. This too shall pass. What a powerful mantra. This too shall pass. Everything is going to go. I like this mantra, which is sometimes you walk past a store and there's a big sign, closing down sale. Everything must go. Like that's such a wonderful mantra in my life as well. Just looking at everything going, everything must go right. But it doesn't mean I'm not going to engage with it. It's not a mean that I'm not going to fall in love with it and really cherish the moment that I have with it. In fact, I think that you play life much better knowing when everything must go. Every day that you're alive, you're very aware. This could be my last day. This could be the last time that I engage with my family, with my loved ones, with my mother, with. With my child. This could be the moment where it all goes and I'm just gonna. I don't know. But I'M just gonna. I'm just gonna enjoy. Enjoy it while I have it, but knowing at the back of my mind, tomorrow I may not have it. And I'm okay with that, too.
- [112:10]
A
Right.
- [112:10]
B
You know, if it comes, let it come. If it goes, let it go.
- [112:14]
A
Yeah, I think it's great. Like, not taking it too seriously, I guess, is maybe the way I would frame it. Like, I noticed this in myself even when I was, like, a young kid. Like, I would play in soccer practice, practice, and I was really great. Like, that was where I was my best. And so I would always, like, do well and, you know, tryouts, and I would get, you know, good looks from different teams, because in practice, I was just having fun. I didn't really take it that seriously. And I still tried my best, but it was. The stakes were lower. And then I would get into a big game, and I would choke up, and I would get nervous, and I would get in my head, and I would get really down on myself, and then I would play terribly.
- [112:45]
B
Right.
- [112:45]
A
And I use that kind of as a facsimile for my life now where when I kind of. When I don't take things as seriously and I'm not as tied to the outcome and I'm not as fixated on all of my failures and all my flaws, in that moment, everything goes much better. So when I look at life and I'm like, hey, if everything goes belly up and, you know, this all goes away tomorrow, it almost puts me at a state of ease where I go, all right, yeah, it's not that big of a deal.
- [113:11]
B
You've made your peace with it.
- [113:12]
A
Yeah, exactly. Like, and I play better, and as a result, things end up getting going better because I'm not as connected. I have a big show, and it's the biggest show I've ever done. But if I go, all right, let's say this goes terribly and I lose everything and everyone hates me, I can live with that. And so as a result, that piece now makes that show go way better.
- [113:28]
B
Yeah.
- [113:29]
A
And then in all the places where I'm like, no, this has to go good, then I'm stiff and just technically, I'm not as sharp, and I'm slower and I'm in my head. And then it goes terribly.
- [113:37]
B
Yeah. So it goes to show that when you try and control every kind of moving part of the situation, you actually end up losing control. Whereas if you take a step back and just allow it to flow and be okay with it, and, you know, like, we do live events and I know how much work goes into setting up a live event and making sure that the venue is booked and all the tickets are sold and all the equipment is set up and, you know, the volunteers are there and they're all gonna. They know their roles. There's a lot of work that goes in into it, but it doesn't mean that you have to be emotionally tied to the outcome. At the end of the day, maybe nobody even shows up. Can you be okay with that? What can you learn from that? How do you improve on that next time without being emotionally invested? Can you be emotionally in a state of tranquility? No matter what happens to life? Because life is always going to go up and down, but your emotions don't have to go up and down with it.
- [114:32]
A
Yeah. Such a super superpower to be in a state of emotional tranquility and you still try and you still put in your best effort. But being at that emotional state, because everything your narrative and your ego tells yourself about, you know, the outcome of something is always tied to failure. It's always, what if it goes wrong? What if no one shows up? What if everyone hates it? What if it is terrible? And if you can accept what's on the other side of that, then now you're free to actually enjoy it or even put in more effort or to be more loose or more fluid.
- [115:02]
B
Yeah.
- [115:02]
A
Because you're not so concerned with all the failures. If you go, all right, then it is what it is. It will be what it is.
- [115:08]
B
Yeah. It's just kind of being okay with the good and the bad, whatever the outcome is.
- [115:12]
A
Yeah. What can the wisdom tell me about meditation? You talked about it a little bit before about, you know, sort of mantra, this idea of the Nam. But what does that really look like? Do I just sit down in lotus position and think? Do I pray? Are there more technical? Technical, I guess, details of what that practice should really look like?
- [115:33]
B
So I always say that with meditation, there's two ways of doing it. There's the formal way, which is kind of what you're talking about, where you sit down and you dedicate some time towards it. And then there is the informal way, which is the way when you're out and about in the world, the wisdom says that a good practitioner of this Wisdom is meditating 24 hours a day. Now, when people talk about meditation, they think about closing their eyes and sitting in one lotus position. Whereas what this is saying is, no, you could be meditating all the time. And the way to do that is that mind labeling system where you're just chanting a mantra when you're relabeling everything as, I'm okay with everything. Everything is good. Life is good. This is the divine. It's that constant kind of mental mantra that you could be doing all throughout the day, day. But it does recognize that there is value in you actually taking some time out and noticing your mind and saying, hey, your mind, what are you doing? One of the things I love to do is just sit down for five minutes and notice what thoughts come up. Recognizing how your mind works is a very important part of this tradition because it's all about trying to work out the noise of the mind and see, well, why did my mind do that? Why did it say that? So it's this real awareness of the mind, how you choose to do that. You could be sitting in a park and doing that. You know, you could be doing that, closing your eyes and watching what your mind is doing. What it isn't going to do with this tradition is allow you to build another ego, which is, hey, I meditate, right? That's another ego. That's a very subtle ego. That kind of, hey, how many hours of meditation do you do? I do this many hours or you don't know this mantra? I know this mantra, or I've taken ayahuasca, or I've done this and I go to these retreats and I do this and that.
- [117:25]
A
This leader said that I was very right.
- [117:27]
B
It's again, just constantly being aware of, oh, you're going to play that story? Is that the story that you're going to go with? This tradition is all about recognizing your mental chatter and your mental noise. However you choose to do that, whatever practice works for you. What I always tell people is try every meditation, play with all of them, use them as tools, but don't be stuck with one particular one. The ultimate goal is the only goal, which is, do you still have this mental chatter, this noise, this ego going on, or have you managed to dissolve that? And it's not about silencing the mind. This tradition just absolutely rejects the idea that you can silence your mind. Trying to silence your mind is like trying to stop your own heartbeat.
- [118:14]
A
That's how it feels to me. I've tried these different, like, mind silencing things, and the whole time I'm just like, okay, this work thing. Oh, this funny thing that happened, it's just constant buzzing.
- [118:23]
B
Yeah, that's a real eye opener to recognize, okay, this is how my mind works. So what this tradition does is it doesn't fight against the natural tendency of the mind to constantly say something, it actually works with it. It's saying, if your mind is going to constantly say something, say this. It doesn't leave you to your own mind to just say whatever it does. Because that's the mind that we're all brought up with, the everyday mind. The mind that says, oh, not that good guy again. And me and I need to do this and I need to do that. That kind of constant mental chatter. This tradition works with the way the mind actually works and says, why don't you just refine that mind? Why don't you actively try and create this kind of mantras in your mind that changes how you look at the world. If you change your mind, you change your world.
- [119:10]
A
So if tomorrow I wake up and I take five minutes to just observe my thoughts and I focus on my breathing and I'm just kind of seeing the thoughts go back and forth. And then in that I'm also perhaps reciting thank you. And I'm just saying thank you to God. And in my case, I might be even saying thank you to Jesus Christ. And I say thank you, God. Thank you Christ, for everything that I have. Thank you for my family. And just kind of go through that list of just saying thank you for all things. And I do that for five minutes and then for the rest of the day I'm just constantly reciting thank you as I'm to going, going through my daily life. Would that be an effective practice of this wisdom?
- [119:46]
B
100%. If you could do that for one day, I would come to you and say, mark, how did you do that? How do you do that? Because whenever I tried, my mind just goes back into the everyday noise and be okay with that as well. Don't create a demon out of your own mind. Just recognize that's how the mind works. And you fall down and then you get up and you try again. That's just what we do. This is how we play this game. Don't try and become this super monk that perfects the mind, right? Recognize, okay? This is how it works. The mind is the ultimate kind of baddie that I have to kind of battle in my mind. It's the final boss in this video game is this mind here. It's not about the outside world.
- [120:30]
A
The best analogy I've found for prayer meditation is just working out. I think you maybe even said it in your conversation with Ranveer about brushing your teeth. It's like it's just a thing that you constantly do. And there is no perfection, like there is no end point. You never get to a point where you're like, my body is perfect and I never work out again. It is just a constant practice that you do every day because it is good for you. When I work out every day, my ambient anxiety is lower. I feel more confident with how I look. I just feel better throughout the day. My cardiovascular is better, my muscles are stronger. I can do more things. Things. So I don't do it for this aesthetic principle. I do it for the internal feeling of how I feel. And so as a result, I have to do it every day in order to get the benefits of that peace that I get from this. And I think meditation operates the same way.
- [121:15]
B
I think that's a healthier way to look at meditation. Because a lot of the time people say, I tried meditation yesterday and it didn't work. So meditation doesn't work for me. And I think that to me, and the brushing the teeth analogy that I give is, well, you don't say that about brushing your teeth. You don't say, I brushed my teeth yesterday and if I need to do it again today, then brushing teeth doesn't work.
- [121:36]
A
Yeah, they were dirty by the end of the night.
- [121:38]
B
You recognize that it gets dirty by the end of the day. And then every day you have to brush your teeth, every day your mind is gonna come up with new stories to tell itself. And the antidote to that is that you wake up the next morning and you start the mantra again. That's just how it works. Just like you wash your clothes every day and you brush your teeth every day. You don't say it doesn't work. Cause I did it once and it's. And it didn't just fix it ultimately. So I think we need to have a different relationship. Like you said, going to the gym, you don't do it once, you do it every day.
- [122:09]
A
And what does this philosophy tell us about where we came from as human beings? We talk about religious institutions having these sort of rigid kind of three part structures. Where do we come from? Why are we here? Where are we going? Does this wisdom give us anything as far as a creation story or what happens to us when we die? How would you answer those questions?
- [122:30]
B
So right at the beginning of this conversation, what I mentioned was this is a revolutionary new way to try and not be just another religion that answers all of those questions. It tries to be an umbrella tradition that says whatever religion or background you come from, these are some golden principles that you can apply. So it doesn't Try to answer these questions. So within this religion tradition, a lot of it is based around sort of the, the pre existing kind of Indian communities that were there, Hindu communities at the time. So the Hindus believe in, in reincarnation. So this tradition talks a lot to them about reincarnation. And it says, if you're worried about reincarnation, try this technique. This will solve the reincarnation problem. But then it goes. The Guru, Guru Nanak also goes to Mecca and he doesn't talk about reincarnation to them. He says, you're worried about Azrael, the angel of death is going to come, come get you. Try this wisdom. Death is not going to bother you anymore. So it doesn't try to create another creation theory. It says we're not capable of knowing how all of this began, this universal divine wisdom, this ultimate oneness, this heavenly father. Who are we to be able to work out how all of this stuff works? Like what greater ego could you have than to try and think that you understand how all of this began and where it all ends up and where you go after you die? It just says, no, we're not gonna, we're not gonna play that game. We're not gonna try to entertain those ideas. Whatever your belief system is, this technique works for you. You can apply it no matter what. So it's not trying to be just another religion, it's trying to be a spiritual practice that you can do whatever religion you're practicing or no religion at all. Because ultimately, even if you have a different creation theory, different to me, you don't have a different mind to me, your mind works in exactly the same way. You have the same desires, the same frustrations. You have the same things that are bothering you as I do. And we might be from two completely different backgrounds, different cultures, different traditions, yet there's something that is the same amongst how we work. This wisdom tries to apply those things that work for all humans beings.
- [124:49]
A
So a person that follows the tradition of Sikhi could be. They could believe that God created two people in seven days and then that propagated the totality of humanity. They could also believe that we evolved from a single cell organism all the way through to being human beings.
- [125:05]
B
Yeah, it doesn't care what your belief system is because it's saying your beliefs are just another story in your head. It only checks that you are capable of, of overriding your daily noisy mind. That's the only measure is, are you in a. It calls it the state of naam. Are you aware of that divine name or are you lost in your own ego? That's like the oni barometer. Are you lost in your ego, or can you recognize that this is the divine oneness? I see what you believe is no different to saying to me, hey, should I wear green socks or pink socks? Socks today? If you asked me that question, it would be such a irrelevant question to me. Hey, when I go to the Gurdwara next, should I wear green socks or red socks? I'm like, hey, who cares? Should I believe in reincarnation? Or who cares? What mind are you going with? What's the quality of your mind right now? That's the only barometer, right?
- [126:03]
A
And I think for a lot of people, when they look at the Sikh community, the things that stand out are the. I think the maybe, I think you kind of called it this as just a way to phrase it, but the articles of faith. And so the things that people notice, they'll notice the kata on the wrist, or they'll notice the pug or the turban. Why do these things? Why are they. In some ways, they seem maybe ritualistic from the outside. They say, okay, well, every morning you put on the same head wrapping or you put on the same jewelry. Why does that exist within a tradition that is so focused on oneness, that is so sort of philosophically open, but yet there's a very maybe rigid way to appear in the world?
- [126:42]
B
So I want to clarify that this appearance is not a mandatory appearance for anyone who wants to practice this tradition. And one of the things that I try and correct, a lot of people, they say, hey, I really love the Sikh wisdom. I'm going to start growing my hair. And it's like, that's not a requirement. You don't have to do it. So of all of the followers of this wisdom, a subsect was created, which was the khalsa, which were the warrior classes that were going to take this wisdom and actively participate in trying to fight injustice. So at the time, you had either people who were totally religious and they took themselves out of the world. And these were like the monks and the sahs, and the way they looked was they would just let their hair grow. Then you had another group of people that were like royalty and the politicians and the kings, and they would wear turbans, and they showed that we're royal people, we're participating in the world. We are the rulers of the world. The tenth Guru, Guru Gobind Singh ji, said, I'm going to create the perfect human being that is spiritual and political, that is determined, attached, and active in the world. So he takes the people who look like monks and gives them the royal clothing. So the turban is the sign that somebody is participating in the world. We're active, but the long hair is somebody who is detached from the world. So it's this perfect combination of the two. So he creates this kind of warrior race of people who are willing to play this game. And. And that's a very difficult game to play because a lot of us don't want to be involved with the world. A lot of us would just be like, hey, just leave me alone. I'll just take the good parts of this tradition. Just leave me and my family alone. But at a time when there was so much injustice happening right at your doorstep, there were a certain number of people that were willing to say, actually, I'm not willing to be spiritual, sitting at home watching my neighbors die. I want to stand up and do something about it. So those people were given a code of code conduct, and they were given a uniform that says, if once you put this on, you never get to take it off. This is a reminder for you that this is. This is now something you have to do every day. You're going to. You're going to participate in the world. You're going to help people, you're going to serve people. Whether it's feeding them, whether it's protecting them, whether it's teaching them, whatever it is, you're now no longer just responsible for you and your family. You're responsible for your human family, for the global family. Those people were given a uniform that said, here you go. And they were given what we call the 5Ks, the Kara, which is a steel bracelet. And we can go into some of these things about what they mean. The steel bracelet is actually a spiritual initiation that comes from the Indian tradition of whenever a student would go to a teacher, and whether it's a teacher of music, a teacher of martial arts, when the martial arts teacher or the music teacher teacher took you on as a student, they would tie a string around your wrist that says, you now have a teacher. So most Sikhs that you will see, if they have none of the other 5Ks, they'll always have the karab, which basically says, I belong to this guru. I belong to this wisdom. So a Sikh carries that. Then they have kesh, which is uncut hair. Number one question I get all the time when people stop me in the street and say, hey, you've got a great beard. How long did it take you? And I said, I've never cut my hair. From day one, I've never cut my hair. My hair goes right down to the. All the way down my back. My long hair. And obviously that's quite different to how most people live. That was part of that Khalsa tradition, which is you're gonna have the long hair of the wise monk. And I think there's something really beautiful about so many different traditions. If you just picture in any tradition, what is your image of a wise old man? They always have long hair. Whether it's Dumbledore, whether it's Santa Claus, Jesus, whether it's Gandalf, it's always the same image. A wise man is somebody who has become at peace with his body and just lets his hair grow. So that's that uncut hair, which is that you're comfortable with life. You're comfortable with letting life do what it needs to do, so you just let your hair grow out.
- [131:18]
A
It also signifies you're a little bit outside, at least in the modern paradigm. You're outside of modern culture a bit. Right. Which is why I think, like, hippies did it. Right. It kind of signified a rejection of culture.
- [131:28]
B
Totally.
- [131:28]
A
Because no one looks at me and thinks, like, oh, he has a corporate job, you know, like, no one thinks that, and that's not why I grew my hair out. But no one. Like, it is a bit of a signifier in a way, that people look at people with long hair and they go, oh, oh, you're an artist or a musician or you exist on the
- [131:44]
B
outside of the matrix.
- [131:46]
A
Yeah. And people. People come up to me all the time. They go, are you. You play guitar like that or you sell weed? There's always an assumption.
- [131:53]
B
Yeah.
- [131:54]
A
But, yeah, you kind of put yourself on the periphery of society a bit.
- [131:57]
B
Yeah. So that guru gave the khalsa the kara, which is that kind of belonging, the uncut hair. But then he also gave one of the Ks is a comb, Ganga, which is. Yes, you're also going to be detached from the world, but you're going to participate in it, so you're going to keep yourself tidy. I don't know if you've ever seen pictures of monks and sadhus in India, but they have almost like dreadlocks. They grow their hair out, but they don't comb it and they don't bathe. So they're just like, we're totally detached
- [132:26]
A
from society, fully ascetic. We do that total.
- [132:28]
B
Yeah. Just renunciates. Renounce the whole world. We don't participate a lot of India still today has monks of just totally not naked monks. They're like, we don't even need clothes.
- [132:37]
A
Yeah, I've seen like the, the Aghori, where like, they'll have, like, long hair and they're with a pile of bones. It's like just a very, very striking image.
- [132:45]
B
Very raw.
- [132:46]
A
Yeah, right.
- [132:47]
B
The Guru says, yes, you're gonna, you're gonna have the mindset of these, these renunciate monks, but you're also gonna be tidy because you have to, you can't be so scruffy that, that and then participate in the world. The world is not gonna accept you. So you're gonna tidy yourself up, you know, comb your hair. You're like, right, you know, make your, make your bed, tidy your room. Like, it's that kind of like be, be someone who's practical and tidy. So one of the, the third K
- [133:13]
A
is the K. You have to exist in the world.
- [133:15]
B
Exist in the world.
- [133:16]
A
There's a great parable in the Bible where Christ and the disciples go to the mountaintop basically to, like, learn. And I forget which of the disciples, he looks at Christ and says, can't we just stay here? Like, why do we have to leave? Like, this is so perfect. Like, we're all just learning with each other. And in fewer or maybe more words, Christ basically says, no, you have to go live amongst the people. You have to go spread this truth to the people. This is not for us to be in our own little, you know, haven on the mountaintop. We have to go out and live amongst, you know, the people that are poor, the people that are in need.
- [133:47]
B
There's a very similar story for Guru Nanak where he goes up to a mountaintop and he sees these monks that have been meditating for, like, God knows, hundreds of years or whatever. And the monks ask, ask him what's happening in the world? And Guru Nanak replies, the world is burning and the people who can help are sitting up here in a cave meditating. You know, I'm not going to join you and just be another one of these monks. I'm going to be a monk in the world that meditates and participates in the world, right? So we got the Ganga, we got the Kara, we got the Kesh. Then is kachera, which is these briefs, these kind of long shorts that you wear, which is about self respect, restraint. You're going to be in the world, but that doesn't mean that you're just going to consume whatever you want, sleep with whoever you want, have whatever relationships you want like you just got to take, take, take. No, you're going to be self, you're in self control. You're in control of your vices, of your animal instincts because we all have them. It's about having that self control. And then the final K is the kirpan, which is a sword or a mini dagger or however like something that actually shows you you're not here to just live for yourself. The word kirpan means the giver of blessings, mercy. So it's not an aggression tool. It is to say, I am no longer just responsible for my own protection. I'm here to protect everyone. My neighbors, my friends, my loved ones. I live for everyone. And sometimes that requires you to stand up and, and fight. That sense of duty and self responsibility in the world is signified in a mini sword or a dagger of some sort. That shows that I actually have a duty not just to myself, but everyone else. So These are the 5Ks of an initiated sick. But it's not a rule for anyone who just wants to follow this wisdom that they have to do it. If you want to, by all means you can take these on as well. But it's not like a be all and end all kind of rule.
- [135:45]
A
And what is the process of becoming an and initiate?
- [135:48]
B
So there's like a whole ceremony where, which started by the 10th Guru, Guru Gobind Singh Ji. And there is a process where five khalsas get together and they take an iron bowl and they put water and sugar in there and they stir it with a sword and they're reciting these prayers. So they're putting the divine kind of energy into that. And then you drink that water and then, then you become a part of this tradition. And then from that day onwards you dedicate to meditating every day, learning the verses, repeating them on a daily basis, wearing the 5Ks and kind of your initiation into the world. We don't see that process as somehow that you're like some super monk by that point. We see that as the initiative into a new way to participate with life.
- [136:42]
A
What age did that happen for you?
- [136:44]
B
I was 19.
- [136:46]
A
Is that roughly when that happens?
- [136:48]
B
So there's no age restriction at all. You get people from 5 years old doing it to 95 years old doing it. Like there's no requirement, there's no kind of minimum age, there's no maximum age. It's whenever you're ready, whenever you feel like, you know this tradition, this is for me, I'm sticking with this one. I'm not just Hopping from one to another. I'm not just cherry picking the bits that I. I like. I'm all in. This is kind of. This is that move when you say I'm all in.
- [137:15]
A
And is that the Dastarbandi?
- [137:18]
B
It's not the Starbandhi? No, this is called the Amritsanchar.
- [137:21]
A
The Amritsanchar.
- [137:22]
B
Amritsanchar, where you're given. It's basically the nectar ceremony. That liquid that's created is that nectar. And it's basically saying, my life is now gonna be the nectar of life. I'm gonna live in the way that I'm squeezing the juice out of life. I'm squeezing the juice out of this moment. Every moment is gonna be like a honey. Amrit is like a honey.
- [137:43]
A
Does it taste good?
- [137:44]
B
Yeah, it's very, very sweet. Very beautiful. But you only get a few drops. You get put. 5. Five drops are put into your mouth.
- [137:50]
A
I see.
- [137:50]
B
Drink it and then it's like sprinkled in your face. It's sprinkled in your hair. It's like you're bathing in it.
- [137:57]
A
Is it a big day? Like, would your family like go out to dinner after? Is there like a cultural element to it?
- [138:03]
B
No, there's no kind of fixed rules around that. But whoever is being initiated, it's a very private ceremony. There's no audience participation, there's no audience viewing. You're either in it to do it. There's no distractions. So it's done in a room. Everybody stands around while this liquid is being prepared and it's being prayed into and beautiful verses are being sung into it. And then only the people in the room are the people who are partaking in that.
- [138:29]
A
Interesting. Do women have a different obligation? Do they have to dress in a particular way or do they represent any of these K's and different ways?
- [138:36]
B
So if we were to create different rules for men and women, we're back in duality. This system says there's no duality. We treat everyone the same oneness for everyone. The same rules apply. If you're a child taking it as an old person, if you're a man taking it a woman taking it a rich person, a poor person, tall, short, able, disabled. There's no discrimination. The whole purpose of this tradition was to eliminate and eradicate discrimination. So we have exactly the same rules for everyone. I think this is one of the few traditions from a very early stage that just said men and women are totally equal. We were one of the first to actually say that women can be Priests, women can be monks. Women can choose to get married. Choose to not get married. Like, there's no, there's no, like, men telling women how they should be in this religion right now.
- [139:26]
A
I, I mean, I haven't, I don't know if I've seen a woman wearing like a, like a turban or does that happen?
- [139:32]
B
My wife wears one.
- [139:33]
A
Does she really?
- [139:33]
B
Yeah.
- [139:34]
A
Does it look like yours?
- [139:36]
B
Yeah, she's got her own style of wearing it.
- [139:38]
A
Oh, really? Could you google that? I don't. That's not something I ever really considered before.
- [139:41]
B
Yeah. Seek female turban. You'll see lots of different styles. Yeah.
- [139:45]
A
Oh, interesting.
- [139:46]
B
Yeah.
- [139:46]
A
And so. And she would also have a cut.
- [139:48]
B
All the 5Ks. Yeah.
- [139:49]
A
Wow, that's interesting.
- [139:50]
B
Yeah.
- [139:50]
A
I've never considered that.
- [139:51]
B
Yeah.
- [139:51]
A
Do you keep your, your carpon. Is that what it's called? The sword? Do you keep it with you?
- [139:55]
B
Yeah.
- [139:55]
A
Do you have it on you now? Yeah. Am I able to see it or would that be. Would that be a. Yeah, I wear
- [140:01]
B
a smaller one for when I'm traveling. Cuz you never know what the rules are, but it's just.
- [140:05]
A
Oh, interesting.
- [140:05]
B
This one there.
- [140:06]
A
Oh, wow, that's cool.
- [140:08]
B
Yeah, I never know what the rules are when I'm traveling abroad.
- [140:11]
A
Yeah. It seems like a tricky thing, right? You go to the airport and you're like, it's.
- [140:13]
B
Oh, yeah, you take it off for the, the planes. You can't. You can't wear it on.
- [140:16]
A
It seems like a weird. It's like, okay, I know I'm a brown dude with a turban going on an airplane and I have a knife, but it's not what you think. I'm here to defend everyone. Oh, that's interesting. Wow. Yeah, Perhaps I have seen this, but I just, I, I didn't register it, I guess as that it was a, A turban. I guess it's just a hair covering is really what.
- [140:34]
B
Yeah.
- [140:34]
A
You're looking for here.
- [140:35]
B
Yeah.
- [140:36]
A
Oh, that's so interesting. Oh, wow. Not something I ever considered. Wow. And do, do you have children?
- [140:43]
B
Yeah, two boys.
- [140:44]
A
And have they, have they been initiated?
- [140:46]
B
My elder, we are giving them their space to say whenever you wanted to do it. And my eldest last year said, hey, dad, I want to do this. And we were like, we're proud of you, son. Go for it. And my youngest one, whenever he's ready. But they still wear everything, so we kind of bring them up as though you're going to go down this route, but at the end of the day you're going to take it at your own pace. You're going to go down. But our duty is. Is to kind of just give you all of the things that come with it. So you kind of learn some of the traditions. You'll learn what the verses are, you'll learn to sing it and all those things. But we're not gonna force you to down anything in particular.
- [141:26]
A
Interesting. Now, is there amongst the Sikh community, if you were able to talk to them, do you feel like there's a ditch that sometimes they fall into on the other side? You know, like, for, you know, for Catholics, you would think, like, okay, well, by coming into the church of Catholicism, there's all these benefits. But sometimes within the church, you can become, you know, too dogmatic on certain things. You can become, you know, too rigid on certain rules or too focused on, you know, the sacrament rather than, you know, the communication with God. Or sometimes you fall into, you know, not the same problems, but different problems once you're initiated and, like, fervent about the faith. Does this happen within Sikhism, where people fall into the other side?
- [142:07]
B
Absolutely. I think, for me, one of the things that. That I think the Sikhs community falls victim to is believing that you have to learn the original language that the script was written in. And one of the things that I feel we are quite rigid about is actually the original language. And so what has happened, and I think one of the reasons why the Sikh tradition is so unknown in the world is that we have convinced ourselves that it is intrinsically tied to the Punjabi language. Language. So, of course, we started this conversation by saying where this tradition started. It started in the northern state of Punjab, and obviously the text was written by people who spoke that language at the time. And as time has gone on, we don't have the strength to say, no, this can be taught in any language. If you wanted to follow this tradition, you don't have to grow your hair. You don't have to follow every part of this rule. You can just. Just take the best part of this and apply it in your own life. Like, I think we've become too much. I think we've been convinced that we're a religion. And if we're this religion, then we're not that religion. And I think that goes against what Guru Nanak had taught. You mentioned that Guru Nanak's companion, who traveled all around the world with him, was a Muslim by Mardana.
- [143:23]
A
Right.
- [143:24]
B
And we wouldn't do that today. We would be like, hey, well, if you're not a Sikh, then and if you're a Muslim, then you do you and I'll do me, right? And I think we fall into that trap. Whereas one of the things that I try to do is say, actually, I don't want to fall into that trap. I want to teach this to as many people, whoever will listen, please just take some of this, apply it in your own life. Because my interest is not for you to join my club, for you to become a member of my tribe. My wisdom is like langar. I want to serve this free wisdom out to everyone and say, hey, try this. Try, you know, how your mind is doing this. Try this with your mind. You know, you too should connect with the oneness of reality and the oneness of God in your own way, in your own life, in your own language. So I think one of the things that we fall into is we've become a cultural religion and the world now sees us as a Punjabi religion. And it was never meant to be a Punjabi religion.
- [144:21]
A
Right? Yeah. I guess this might be sort of diminishing, but, like, the idea of, like, therapy, like someone that loves therapy is like, hey, do therapy and go to whatever therapist you like and just go talk about your problems, whether you're Muslim, Christian, man, woman, just go to therapy. I wonder if it's a similar kind of plea, but maybe on a higher level of consciousness to say, like, hey, whatever, the thing is for you, this is just good spiritual technology. Just adopt this in whatever way it feels right.
- [144:48]
B
Yeah. And I think for me, one of the things I try to do is I'm trying to position this as mental nutrition. It doesn't matter what background you come from. There are certain rules about nutrition of the body that are just good for everyone. And I think there are certain rules about nutrition of the mind that is just good for everyone. You just need to recognize your ego, recognize that when you're being overtaken by your rage and your lust and your desires and your greed, recognize that these things and then apply this technique and override them.
- [145:18]
A
Right? Yeah. I think with a lot of different religions and philosophies, there's, you know, like, for example, the Orthodox Church is, you know, within, like, Catholic Orthodoxy is a bit of, like, national churches, you know, like my. My pal Christos here is a Greek Orthodox. He grew up in this tradition. Perhaps he doesn't practice, you know, heavily per his own account, but he's a Greek Orthodox. And my friends that are of the Orthodox faith, they're all national churches. So there's Serbian Orthodox and Russian Orthodox Orthodox, and they are functionally the same thing, but there's different cultural things. They don't really break into each other because it's so nationalistic. And in some ways I see Sikhism, unfortunately, perhaps in that way where if I were to meet a white guy like me from Florida and he was wearing a turban and he grew his beard out and he had to cut that, I'd be like, how did that happen? I would be confused. I would say, did you study in India? How did this become to be. But that wouldn't be the case. Case for Islam or Catholicism, where if I were to meet a black person who's Catholic, I'd be like, sure. Or a Mexican who's Catholic, I'm like, obviously. Or a French guy who's Catholic, I'm like, duh. These things have broached the global community in a way that Sikhism hasn't.
- [146:29]
B
I think that's a very interesting observation. But we have to kind of almost contextualize it with history. The reason that hasn't happened with the Sikh religion is because we're not cultivated colonizers. We can't be ignorant of the fact that the reason Christianity and Islam has really spread all over the world is there was, you know, there are the Crusades. We can't ignore them. These things did happen. There are people who went all over the world and kind of forcibly converted the people around them. And that was happening in India. The reason that we had the Sikh Khalsa tradition was because there was forcible conversion happening. People were being forcibly converted to Islam. So I'm not kind of naive of some of the historical kind of context that really needs to be placed in the world. And I don't look down on the Sikh religion saying, hey, we haven't done what the other religions have done. I'm proud of that. We haven't gone out and tried to forcibly convert people. Does that mean that we shouldn't share the teachings? I think to our own detriment, we have now convinced ourselves that we're a Punjabi religion. And I believe that there's better ways to go out there and actually share this without forcibly converting people.
- [147:37]
A
But. YouTube channel?
- [147:38]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Why not just go online and teach this in a language that the world speaks in using technology and tools that the world has access to and they can download on their phones. But, you know, we can't ignore the fact that there have been these very violent things that have happened in tandem with kind of the growth of the religions, that it didn't just happen because the religions were so great and so beautiful in their philosophy that everybody just adopted it willingly. These things happened with forced conversions.
- [148:10]
A
Right. Conquest is a very fast way, I guess, to convert people. But maybe that's even just a testament to, I guess, the, I don't want to say pacifism, but maybe the gentleness perhaps of the faith and of the philosopher philosophy that it hasn't become, you know, like sort of injected into all these other cultures in the way that so many other religions have. Yeah, yeah. It's an interesting. It's just something interesting that I've noticed. I mean, if you were to meet. Have you seen it more where you're seeing more non Punjabi people that are coming to conferences that are, you know, wearing all the 5Ks and they're, you know, some person in America and they grew up in America or, you know, they have no connection to India or to Punjab.
- [148:52]
B
Totally. And one of the reasons why I love doing some of the events that I, that I run is you get to see people turn up. And you would never expect to see them all from all sort of corners of the world, white, black, sort of from all different backgrounds, not necessarily kind of growing their hair and wearing a turban, but certainly saying, hey, I'm here because I watched your content and it's had a huge impact on my life. And I think I'm a Sikh now.
- [149:17]
A
Wow.
- [149:18]
B
And that to me is like the greatest, greatest kind of testament that this wisdom genuinely is universal. And the fact that they don't grow their hair, I think is great. I'm not asking you to grow your hair. I don't care whether you grow your hair or not. You do you, that's up to you. You do that whenever or if that ever manifests in your life. But the fact that this wisdom is something that you are drawn towards just proves that this really is a universal wisdom. This really is something that can appeal to all people from all backgrounds.
- [149:49]
A
Right. And are you doing an event in New York anytime soon?
- [149:53]
B
I'm actually here on a podcast tour this week, so there's no event planned. It's literally just back to back podcasts. But yeah, this is my first time in New York. I'd love to come back.
- [150:03]
A
Oh really?
- [150:03]
B
Yeah.
- [150:04]
A
You should do an event here.
- [150:05]
B
I should.
- [150:05]
A
I would love to go. That'd be awesome. And I know there's a pretty big, like sick community in specifically like New Jersey.
- [150:12]
B
Yep.
- [150:12]
A
And there's a bunch of Gurdwaras all through New Jersey. So I'm sure if you're do something in, you know, the tri state area, you would get probably a pretty good turn.
- [150:19]
B
Yeah, I'm sure I would. Yeah. It goes back to that kind of all the logistics of trying to run an event, you can. I can barely do that in my hometown in the uk, let alone try and do it around the world. But, yeah, no, I do. I do have a wonderful team of people who do help me with that. There's only so much that I can do in live events, and for me, I think I always fall back to just doing stuff on YouTube because it can just reach so many more people. So, yeah, yeah. Whenever I do a live event, for me, the ultimate goal is I can film it and put it back on YouTube. So for all the people that couldn't attend, they could still benefit from it.
- [150:49]
A
Right. Okay. One of the last things I want to ask you. If someone listens to this whole podcast, they've learned something about how this wisdom works. If they were to meet a Sikh person just out in the world, maybe at a dinner or something like that, what would you recommend that they talk about? Or how could they approach the conversation if they wanted to talk about the faith, what would be an easy introduction if they wanted to learn more from someone that actually is living it?
- [151:12]
B
So the opening lines of the text on the very first page is called the Mul Mantra. Mul Mantra. Ask them about that.
- [151:21]
A
The Mul Mantra.
- [151:22]
B
Yeah. That alone is literally the entire philosophy summarized into, like, seven or eight words. So anybody who's practicing this will be able to talk to you about the fundamental concepts that are all wrapped up into, like, seven or eight words beginning with equality, oneness, unfolding at all places and at all times.
- [151:43]
A
Okay, that's cool. The Mul Mantra. So if someone were to say, hey, I just listened to a podcast on Sikhism. Can you tell me about the Mul Mantra? Yeah, that'd be a good opening line.
- [151:50]
B
Yeah. And if their face drops and they don't know what to say, then they look like a Sikh. But they haven't really spent their own time learning it. So say, hey, let's look it up together. Let's Google it together and try and learn.
- [151:59]
A
Amazing. Satpal, where can people find you if they want to learn more?
- [152:03]
B
So I'm starting my own channels now called Satpal, so you can literally just spell my name out. Or I have a YouTube Chann channel called Nanak Nam, which I've been spending the last 15 years or so just kind of giving this wisdom out for free. So go check it out. On all the socials. TikTok, Instagram, YouTube.
- [152:21]
A
Amazing. Bless you, brother. Thank you so much. I really appreciate chatting with you. This is awesome. Or perhaps maybe just chatting with myself.
- [152:28]
B
Thank you.
- [152:29]
A
Thank you.