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The same physicist who helped create Project Stargate is the same guy who's now telling Congress that UFOs might be interdimensional. Look, he went from Stanford's laser lab to remote viewing experiments, then from UFO programs to a UFO disclosure campaign. His ideas of propulsion and how UFOs work became the backbone of how our government identifies objects from out of this world. He's not just a researcher. He was the bridge between fringe science and national security. And the man who helped transform Project Blue Book's forbidden questions into today's Pentagon investigations. Two different eras, but one continuous thread. And it all centers around one man, Hal Puthoff. This is the story of how a brilliant physicist spent nearly 50 years keeping the impossible alive inside the minds of the people in our government. And ultimately why the Pentagon keeps on asking him to come back. So if you are interested in the mysteries of ancient technology, UFOs, and the science scientists that have gone and risked a reputation for disclosure, well, this is the episode for you. So sit back, relax, and welcome. What's up, people? And welcome back to camp. My name is Mark Gagnon, and thank you for joining me in my tent, where every single week, we explore the most interesting, fascinating, controversial stories from around the world. From all time, forever. Yes, basically, this was my idea. You know what I'm gonna say? I said, I'm gonna try to learn everything that's ever happened and go on these crazy wormholes and jump down these, you know, crazy trails and see where it leads me. And I want to learn in real time with you guys. So that's what we're doing here at the campsite. And it wouldn't be possible without you clicking on this video and tuning in and being a part of what we're building over here at camp. It's also not possible without my dear pal Christos. How are you, Christos? What's going on? Christos, I've noticed something. A lot of people in the comments have been dogging you. They've been saying you're yapping too much. I'm aware, and that hurts my feelings. Same, you know. Hurts my feelings more. What's that? You yapping all the time. All right. It's all the yapping you're doing that's really pissing me off. Okay, we don't have time for Christos interjections because we're talking about Hal put off. Now, if you don't know who this guy is, you probably didn't see his Rogan interview, which is fascinating. People should check that out. He is. I mean one of the more notorious people in sort of like the UFO sort of like paranormal science space that I just love reading about because I love the people that have a proper science background that's also interested in weird stuff like me, you know, that's, that, that's sometimes you talk to people that are into like the paranormal and like the freaky deaky that's going on here on Earth and they're just like a little too crazy. And you're like, it's tough to really get a read on this. But when you get someone that's like from a proper science background, then you're like, oh nice. And on top of that, Florida boy, he went to University of Florida, but I count it. Anyway, let's jump in. All right, basically, if you need, if you don't know anything about how put off, you're in the right place, I'm going to tell you everything that's going on. Basically before Hal put off was actually like, you know, briefing senators about interdimensional craft and you know, what's going on in space. He was just a kid from Chicago who happened to be really good at building lasers. He was born June 20, 1936 and after earning engineering degrees from the University of Florida, he joined the Navy and worked at the NSA from 1960 to 1963. At the NSA he's basically working on technology that's super advanced. I mean, fiber optics, like high powered lasers, high speed computing, basically the prototypes for all the computing stuff and all the technology that we're using now. But in 1967 he earned his PhD from Stanford with a thesis called the Stimulated Ramen Effect in its application as a tunable laser. Yes, not the Korean dish. We're talking about basically a tunable infrared laser, which is a laser that makes this invisible infrared light and lets you change the exact wavelength that it produces. And now shortly after this, he co writes Fundamentals of Quantum electronics in 1969, which became so influential it gets translated into, you know, almost every language and is still used in universities across the world today. So by any measure, Puthoff is on track to become one of America's top conventional physicists, specializing in lasers. But in 1969 is also the year that something else happens. December 17th, the US Air Force officially shut down Project Blue Book. This is America's longest running official UFO slash UAP investigation program. What's interesting about the timing of all this is that the program wasn't declassified yet. People didn't know about it, it just simply ended. But the timing is weird because as soon as the government claimed to stop investigating UFOs, put off was moving in the opposite direction. And it all starts with a belief system that you wouldn't assume a scientist or a physicist would be into, which is kind of ironic because we're talking about Scientology. So in the late 1960s, while building his reputation, Puthoff developed an interest in the Church of Scientology. But he's not just casually interested in Scientology. By 1971, he reached operating thetan level seven. That's the highest level available at the time. For those who don't know Scientology. Each operating thetan or OT level is said to reveal a deeper part of a person's innate abilities, and many of which are supernatural, for lack of a better word. Put off writes articles for Scientology's magazine claiming that the training that he got within the Church of Scientology gave him, quote, a feeling of absolute fearlessness and an experience in which his consciousness seems to have perceived reality outside of the physical body. This is something that the Church of Scientology will call exteriorization, but most people would just call it remote viewing. Now if you don't know remote viewing, this is basically the process where, you know, a remote viewer, someone that claims to have this ability, will receive coordinates maybe inside like an envelope, and by kind of meditating, going to like this deep sort of trance, they're able to triangulate these coordinates and see what the coordinates are revealing. So, you know, people have suggested the military has used it to try to see, you know, bases over in Russia or China and see secret nuclear operations, stuff like that. Is it real? Is it proven? I don't know. Regardless, he claims that he can do this. So Scientologists believe that when this happens, a person's thetan, which is basically like the conscious being inside of the person, that's not the person themselves. It's like this multigenerational sort of essence. It basically leaves the body, but can still perceive its surroundings. Now keep in mind this is a Stanford educated physicist with NSA security clearance writing about out of body experiences and sort of supernatural perception. Basically remote viewing inside a religious magazine. And you can imagine most scientists at the time would probably keep that private, but Hal put off, did not, and he made it pretty public. And he actually decides to test them scientifically. And that decision completely changes the direction of his entire career. So while put off is exploring Scientology at this time, something is happening within the UFO world. There's an astronomer named J. Allen Hynek, and he had run project Blue book for like 22 years, and he's extremely frustrated. The Air Force hired him to basically debunk all these UFO sightings that people are claiming to see. But by the late 1960s, he's convinced that something is happening, and he doesn't know what exactly, but it's something that is difficult to understand or impossible to explain. And in 1966, Hynek tells his friend Jacques Vallee, who is, I mean, just a legend within the UFO space and also a computer scientist. And basically he tells Valet his deep, dark secret, that he's fascinated in mysticism and the occult and ultimately what's happening with these, you know, beings that people are seeing all the time. So over the next few years, Hynek and Valet develop a wild new theory that UFOs aren't alien spaceships coming from, you know, far off galaxies. They might be beings from, you know, a different dimension who have been manipulating human consciousness throughout history. So Valet basically calls the loose network of scientists and physicists and basically top academic minds studying this sort of fringe field of science, the invisible College. Because we don't actually know who's involved, only that many of them hold security clearances and work behind the scenes in government and academia and within classified research. So when Project Blue Book officially shuts down In December of 1969, it creates a problem. All these researchers with clearances and an interest in these sort of unexplained sightings suddenly lose their official funding. But the interest in studying this phenomenon doesn't just go away. So instead of asking, what are these objects? They start asking, can human consciousness itself detect information beyond the normal physical limits? Is it possible that what we can perceive within our physical reality is not all that there is? And perhaps there's another reality or a different or a parallel reality that we can access with our consciousness? All right, now this, again, this is not my theory. This is what they're asking themselves. Because if UFOs interact with perception and memory and awareness, as Heineck and Valet are kind of floating, then consciousness isn't a side effect. It's like an antenna for your brain. Now, this goes into some, like, deep, like, philosophy of the mind stuff like, is our brain, is consciousness basically non local to our brains? Like, does the material brain create consciousness? Or is consciousness this sort of underlying thing that unites the entire universe and we have a piece of it that's able to channel the other parts of the universe? Does that make sense? So that idea doesn't sound like UFO research anymore. It's almost like this semi scientific psychic research. And that is where puthoff comes in. So in 1972, Puthoff joins the Stanford Research Institute. This is the SRI where he's supposed to be working on laser projects, which is of course his specialty. But he also has something else in mind. In September of that same year, Puthoff met Jacques Vallee, who's working as a computer scientist at sri. And coincidentally, he had also just spent the last six years basically talking with Alan Hynek about these interdimensional theories and trying to understand what these sort of, you know, UFO experiences are. So when Valet learns about put off Scientology experiments and his exteriorization, AKA remote viewing, and everything starts to click, Valet begins to think that maybe psychic abilities in this UFO phenomena are the exact same thing, just simply interdimensional beings interacting with human consciousness. Now, this takes us to one of the Stanford Research Institute's most famous characters, and that is a man named Ingo Swann. Now, if you want the full story of Ingo Swann, great news. We did a whole episode dedicated to just him and his work and his life. So if you're interested in that, you can check it out. But you just to sum it up, In June of 1972, Puthoff conducted an experiment with Ingo Swann, who was literally just an artist in New York at the time. But Ingo had been claiming that he could see things with his mind, not in like the metaphorical way, but like literally. Give me the sealed envelope with the coordinates and I'll tell you what I see. Or, you know, draw a picture and don't show me and I'll tell you what you drew, that kind of thing. And the test is pretty simple. Swan tries to remotely view a hidden target that he can't be able to see or perceive in any way through normal means. But then Swan successfully describes the details of the hidden target and the CIA decides there's something here and maybe this is worth investigating. So within months, the CIA is now funding what becomes a 23 year government program investigating remote viewing at the Stanford Research Institute. And this program is what we now call Project Stargate. And put off, becomes its director, working alongside physicist Russell Targ, who helps him create the boundaries of these experiments. And they start testing people like Yuri Geller, Pat Price, and even Joseph McMonagle, all in an attempt to understand if these psychic abilities are legitimate and furthermore, if they can actually be used and utilized for government intelligence. But here's the key. Puthoff and Valet are convinced that they're not just studying human perception. They think that maybe in some way they're investigating the Same interdimensional phenomena that Hynek had been tracking through all these UFO reports. But some critics point out problems with the experiments. So psychologist Terence Hines later says the tests were run under conditions that, quote, can best be described as chaotic. And that Uri Geller, who obviously is a very famous magician, was nothing more than just that, a magician using sleight of hand. So when other researchers tried to replicate Puthoff and Targ's research under tighter controlled experiments, they consistently fail to get significant results. But the program keeps going anyway. Because for Puthoff, this was never about psychics or remote viewing or aliens. It was about whether human consciousness, human consciousness itself, could interact with reality in ways that physics just couldn't explain yet. So that takes us to the next stage of how's life? What's up, people? We're going to take a break really quick because I got to give a shout out to the good folks at Dylan Optics. I mean, for the longest time, I've been wanting a sunglass partner, and I'm so glad that it's a great sunglass brand. All right, if you've ever seen me on stage ever, or just on this podcast with my hair down, I always have sunglasses. I use them to keep my hair back. But now with Dylan Optics, I can also use them on my eyes because I swear, when I put these things on, life was in hd. 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That's D I L L O N optics dot com, and if you use the promo code Camp C A M P, you're going to save 10% off. So go check it out. Thank you, Dylan Optics, for making this possible. And let's get back to the show. In 1985, Puthoff leaves the Stanford Research Institute to pursue an even more ambitious idea. And this idea is called zero point energy. He basically goes on to found the Institute for Advanced Studies at Austin. And his hypothesis is basically that, you know, the zero point field of quantum mechanics, which is the energy that exists in completely empty space, might be the key to understanding, I mean, everything, inertia, gravity, and potentially even unlimited energy. Puthoff basically says this, maybe inertia, the thing that makes objects resist being pushed, comes from an electromagnetic drag caused by the constant tiny movements of energy particles that are filling the empty space. So if this is true, then manipulating the zero point field could theoretically allow for an exotic propulsion system, essentially saying that spacecraft could accelerate without rocket fuel simply just by pushing against the fabric of space time itself. By finding the zero point, you could actually propel an entire ship. Now, of course, this research and this hypothesis instantly attracts attention from, I mean, everyone from NASA, aerospace contractors, anyone interested in propulsion. But mainstream physicists are skeptical. Scientists like Stephen Karlip and Massimo Pigliucci dismiss these ideas as just pseudoscience, claiming that it involves mathematical errors and ultimately violations of the laws of thermodynamics. But Puthoff doesn't back down. He keeps chasing these ideas, convinced that mainstream science is overlooking something huge about space, time and energy. And that belief eventually pulls him into one of the most controversial research projects in all of modern UFO history. So in December of 1980, a Texas UFO incident created a bridge between Puthoff's psychic research and his UFO work. A woman named Betty Cash, Vicki landrum and Vicki's 7 year old grandson and encounter what they describe as a diamond shaped UFO near a town called Huffman in Texas. And they say that it emits intense heat and radiation, causing all three of them to suffer burns and hair loss and symptoms consistent with radiation poisoning. But here's the interesting part. They claimed that the craft was being escorted by like 20 military helicopters. And the case becomes super famous because it's one of the few UFO encounters with documented medical evidence. And in 1988, NSA documents revealed something wild. Puthoff's remote viewing team at Stanford Research Institute had been discussing this case during their meetings. And who else was involved? Jacques Vallee. So the same people running America's psychic spy programs are also quietly digging into these fringe, crazy UFO cases. And this is what sets the stage for everything that comes Next. In the 1990s, Puthoff becomes a major player in the billionaire Robert Bigelow's National Institute for Discovery Science. This is the group investigating Skin Walker Ranch in Utah. The ranch was already famous for UFO sightings and poltergeist events and cattle mutilations. So Bigelow buys the property specifically to study whatever is going on there. So Puthoff teams up with Jacques Vallee, and together they explore the idea that the ranch might have some type of energy system. Or maybe this is just a point in the geography where something strange happens. Maybe a portal or like a spot where normal physics just kind of glitches out just enough for interdimensional beings to show up. But even with all the advanced sensors and the non stop surveillance and the excellent scientific work, the group can't get a solid, undeniable piece of evidence for any of this. But the research ends up doing something unexpected. It puts Hal Puthoff on the Pentagon's radar. And that connection leads directly to the most important government UFO program since Project Blue Book. And that's OS app and AATIP. So in 2007, Senator Harry Reid secured 22 million in funding for a classified Pentagon program called the Advanced Aerospace Weapons System and Applications Program. The contract was given to Bigelow Aerospace, and Puthoff comes in as a senior advisor and contractor. OS app's official mission is to study advanced aerospace threats, but in reality, it's also digging into UFOs and paranormal events and just these exotic sort of fringe concepts of physics. Puthoff was able to commission unclassified research papers from experts around the world on things like invisibility and cloaking technology and traversable wormholes and stargates and warp drive theories and ways to bend space time to access other dimensions and advanced propulsion ideas that are based off of the zero point energy theory. But when OS App's funding ended in 2012, the program was shut down. However, the Pentagon was still interested in this phenomenon, so a smaller, more classified effort began. And this is called the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program, or aatip. And this is controlled by none other than intelligence officer Lou Elizondo. Puthoff remains involved as a contractor, working with Elizondo to brief government officials about ongoing UAP encounters and how they could potentially be a threat to national security. And according to Elizondo, Puthoff is instrumental in developing what he calls the five observables. Now, these are basically things that help a person identify true UAP behavior versus just military craft or some type of aberration with light or, you know, just like a weather balloon. And these things include one, lifting off the ground using anti gravity. Two, sudden and instantaneous acceleration. Three, hypersonic velocity without Signatures four, low observability or cloaking, and trans medium travel. Basically meaning the craft can seamlessly travel through air and water and space, seemingly without being affected. But then in 2017, everything changes. Puthoff helps co found the to the Stars Academy alongside Tom DeLonge of Blink 182 fame, whistleblower Lou Elizondo, Skunk Works aerospace director Steve Justice, CIA veteran Jim Semivan, former Defense Department official Chris Mellon, and and even Stanford University immunologist and geneticist Gary Nolan. Although he's not formally listed as a founder, he is credited as being instrumental during the startup. And obviously an insane lineup of people. And the goal is very simple but not easy. They want to bring forward the UFO research that's been kept hidden from the public in an effort to use science to better understand what is actually happening. So through Lou Elizondo and Chris Mellon, the group brought forward declassified Navy UFO videos and helped reporters understand the scale of the Pentagon's UAP investigation. And this culminates in maybe the most significant article ever on UFO research. December 2017. The New York Times article by Helen Cooper, Ralph Blumenthal, and Leslie Keane. This is the report that exposes the Pentagon secret UFO program and puts official UAP footage in front of the public for the first time. And this is where we get the famous videos like the Tic Tac video or the gimbal video or the Go Fast video. Now, it might be worth watching one. If you haven't seen them, they're fascinating. If you have seen them, it's, you know, these are like the. The gold star as far as, you know, modern UAP research goes. So let's roll one right here. This is the Navy gimbal video. There's a whole fleet of them. What's on the nsa? My God, they're all going against the wind. The wind's a hunting point out to the west. That's not L on us though, is it? It's not on affairs of. So that footage comes from Navy aircraft looking at this object flying through the air, doing these insane rotations, moving in ways that they've never seen aircraft move before. And all of the operators on the ship are basically like, what is this thing? We can't. They can't believe what they're seeing. And the Go Fast video is also really interesting. Can we pull that one up? Oh, my gosh, dude. So the videos are unexplainable. I mean, I. This is why anytime I hear people say, like, oh, man, like, how come UFOs only ever show up with, like, some toothless guy out in the middle of Mississippi. And it's always some guy being like, I saw an alien. Sure, that's. I get it. But also, you have these videos from actual Navy pilots and some of the most qualified and trained personnel to ever take the skies looking at these objects, saying, I don't know what this is. Now, is it possible it's, you know, some type of technology from an adversary or from some other country that we've never seen before? Maybe. I kind of doubt it. Is it possible that this is a psyop that's released by the government to make people think that there's aliens? Possible. But all that to say this footage is groundbreaking. And for the first time, the American public sees all this and they don't know what to make of it. Now, put off provides the scientific analysis explaining how these objects display the exact characteristics that his team had been studying for decades. And they qualify under these five observables. They're looking at these craft, and they're moving with insane speed, doing these insane aerial maneuvers that can't be done by American, you know, even the most classified American craft. So the group also claims to have acquired metamaterials, allegedly from crashed UFOs, causing them to bring in scientists like Gary Nolan to do. To do an analysis of these samples. The materials are said to have exotic properties. Layered in bismuth and magnesium zinc that allegedly become a lifting body when subjected to electromagnetic radiation. Now, a lifting body is a structure that can generate lift not through wings or, you know, the traditional things you would see on an aircraft, the Bernoulli principle, but through its own shape or internal composition. And in this case, the claim is that the material itself could produce lift when it's energized, acting almost as, like, this piece of advanced propulsion. What's up, guys? 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The to the Stars academy didn't just get the story out there. They triggered a chain reaction that brought Put Off's five decades of research directly into the public spotlight. In September 2019, the Navy officially confirms the authenticity of these three videos and states that the objects in the footage display unexplained aerial phenomena. Uap. And this is the first time since project Blue Book that the government has officially acknowledged the unidentified objects are operating in restricted airspace with technology that can't be explained. Then, In April of 2020, a year after confirming that the videos were real, the Pentagon officially released the tic tac gimbal and go Fast videos themselves, basically to clear up any misconceptions by the public. And at this point, the videos had already been made public and confirmed to be real. But this was the government basically saying, like, all right, here's our official videos. But behind the scenes, Puthoff is working with a new generation of researchers to prepare for something much bigger. A highly detailed report to Congress about the entire scope of UAP encounters. And in June 2021, the Office of the Director of National Intelligence released the preliminary assessment, Unidentified aerial phenomena. This is the first official government UFO report since 1969. And this report confirms that military Personnel have encountered at least 144 unexplained UAP incidents since 2004, and admits that most of these objects demonstrate technology beyond what the US is currently capable of. And more importantly, the report uses the exact framework Puthoff helped develop. Through a tip, his five observables became the government's official criteria for evaluating whether a sighting represents genuine unknown technology. Then In July of 2022, the Pentagon established the All Domain Anomaly Resolution Office, aka Arrow, as the official government body responsible for tracking and cataloging and ultimately analyzing UAP reports from all the military branches. Now this is the first permanent centralized UAP investigation program since Project Blue Book. And Arrow immediately begins using Putoff's methods. In January 2023, Arrow released additional military footage showing these spherical objects moving at high speed through military training areas displaying the same trans medium travel capabilities that put off had been documenting. But then something happens that brings everything full circle. In June of 2023, former intelligence officer David Grush goes public with maybe the most explosive UFO claims in history. Grusch testifies before Congress that the US Government had been operating secret crash retrieval programs for decades. And according to him, multiple non human craft have been recovered and reverse engineered. But here's the wild part again. Grusch's testimony relies heavily on methods and frameworks that trace directly back to Hal Puthoff's work. Grusch explicitly credits the work of scientists like Hal Puthoff as foundational to understanding the UAP phenomenon. And the hearing makes it very clear that Puthoff's research isn't just curiosity or some crazy guy that's looking out in the stars. It's actively informing current government investigations and shaping how officials think about the phenomenon. Then in November 2023, Arrow releases its first comprehensive historical review of government UAP programs, documenting the direct lineage from Project Blue Book through Stargate to OS app and aatip. So for the first time, the government acknowledges that UAP research never actually stopped. It just kind of changed names and personnel slightly and just sort of changed the form of how it was working. And finally in 2024, Aaro began investigating reports of UAP that appear to demonstrate what they say is non local consciousness effects, essentially acknowledging that some encounters might involve telepathic or psychic elements or remote viewing all these things that would be non local consciousness. Now this represents the complete convergence of Puthoff's two main research, remote viewing and the UFOs connection to psychic abilities, just as he and Jacques Vallee theorized 50 years before. Now today, at 89 years old, Puthoff continues to serve as a scientific advisor to various government agencies and private organizations investigating these unidentified anomalous phenomena. But more importantly, his approach to studying the phenomena has become the government's official methodology. Arrow uses remote sensing technologies created during Project Stargate. Military analysts look at UAP reports using the five observables that Puthoff put out and was developed through atip. And physicists are trying to study these strange exotic propulsion concepts that originated with Puthoff's original zero point energy research. The same theories about consciousness and reality that got put off interested in Scientology originally in 1969 are now being seriously discussed in Pentagon briefings, in congressional hearings. So from Scientology to Stanford, from remote viewing to zero point energy, from Skinwalker Ranch to Pentagon briefings, Hal Puthoff has spent five decades exploring this phenomena. But here's what's really remarkable. He wasn't working alone. He was a part of a direct lineage that stretches from America's first official UFO programs to today's UAP investigations. So when Project Blue book ended in December 69, it didn't kill government interests in the unexplained. It just kind of put it more underground, more classified. The same people, the same theories, they all continued through secret psychic programs from Blue Book to Stargate, from OS app to a tip and all the way to today's UAP programs and maybe programs we've never heard of. It's the same people passing the same theories and the same research just through different places. So whether he's right or he's wrong, Hal Puthoff didn't study the impossible. He kept it alive and ultimately passed on his research through government channels when everyone else seemed to have moved on. He built the bridge between the era when UFOs were officially dismissed and it's all crazy Hollywood stuff, and into the era when they are officially acknowledged by senators, congressmen and women and, and in some cases potentially even the President. Because sometimes the biggest breakthroughs come from scientists who refuse to let go of these questions that linger in their mind and are willing to risk their reputation when no one else is. And sometimes the best way to keep studying something officially forbidden is just to call it something else entirely. And that is a brief overview of the life and work of the scientist Hal Puthoff. I mean, fire. Like I think that is, I think Hal put off's life and career is the, is like the best starting point for someone that is like a skeptic about UAP and you know, UFO stuff. Again, I'm not like the biggest like, oh, aliens are coming, landing in the water. Like, I'm fascinated by it. I'm curious about it. But if, like, sightings of, like, you know, kids in Zimbabwe or, like, you know, some guys looking up at the stars, like in Chile or something, isn't what's going to get you going? Looking at declassified Navy documents of these crafts doing crazy stuff that you can't explain, that has been officially acknowledged by the US Government, by the New York Times, by people, leads, physicists and researchers from within the government. If they're all looking at it being like, hey, this is weird. It just. It forces you to ask the question, what is going on? And maybe the answer is, oh, it's a psyop from the government. Maybe it's like, oh, there's like a weird aberration on their radar and they're picking up some bird that's flying, but the parallax makes it look like it's something else. Or maybe these are interdimensional beings coming from a different plane. Who knows? But at the very least, you got to ask what's going on? And there's. It seems like, I don't know. I have friends that have, like, a complete lack of curiosity in this field, specifically my friend Miles. And there's just like. It's like, dude, look at these videos. Like, what do you think's happening? Why? Like, if this is able to stump the most highly trained Navy pilots, like, at the very least, I can have the humility to be like, yeah, dude, I don't know what that is. At the very least, you gotta just leave a little room for the questioning. Again, I'm not saying it's not some type of government psyop. It could be. It could be a big diversion. Eventually there's a world war breaking out, and they're like, hey, there's aliens that's on the table. But I'm just saying you got to look at it and be like, what is happening? And why do they want us to see this? Maybe it's interdimensional beings. Maybe it's all fake. But at the very least, what is it? I don't know. Christos, what do you think? I say we should do a Mary kill. Okay, Lou Elizondo, Bob Lazar, Hal put off as far as the discovery of interdimensional vehicles and humans, possibly. Well, that is a great point because Bob Lazar is ultimately brought into this because Dave Grush is going before Congress saying, hey, we've recovered craft. I'm pretty sure Dave Grush's exact quote is that there are non human biologics. And he says some of the crash retrievals are archaeological digs, essentially, meaning some of these crash retrievals are ancient. Like, this is not a crash retrieval from like 2024. This is maybe from the 1500s, maybe from 2000 years ago. That brings up a whole different can of worms. Yeah. Crazy, right? Again, I don't know. Also, his relationship with Scientology is interesting. I think he officially cut off, like, I think to public reports, he was like, I'm no longer involved in Scientology as far as, like, the 70s, 70s go. But it is a little ironic because I can see, based off of my understanding of Scientology now and kind of understanding their beliefs a little better, how it would attract a scientist because, like, the original versions of Dianetics was created by, you know, a former military guy who basically was implementing science into this sort of, like, therapeutic kind of research. So I could see how that would draw someone in that has a semi military background that's also interested in science. For the record, Hal put off is not involved with church of Scientology and has not been for many decades. Right? Yeah. I think in the 70s is when he cut it off. But I might be off on that, but it just. I don't know, it raises the question about, is Bob Lazar all of a sudden vindicated? Because for years people were like, oh, he's a quack. He's a, you know, CIA guy. Da, da, da, whatever people called him. And then all of a sudden, Dave Grush is like, no, the government's working on this stuff. And Bob Lazar is like, yeah, I know. I was working on one of the crafts. I was. I was deep in the guts of the sport model, trying to figure out the zero point energy. Yeah. Lou Elizondo, I don't know as well, but I would love to get him on the pod. Be great. I mean, how fun would that be? Lou, if you're watching, please join us in the campsite. But, oh, man, I don't know. I feel like Hal Puthoff to me is like, top, because he's pushing the research forward. He's consulted on so many different projects, and his career spans so many decades. I don't know enough about Lou Elizondo, but Bob Lazar is also standing on business, willing to go out there and put his business out there and be like, yeah, this is what I'm doing. But he's also only touching a very specific scope of the research, which is reverse engineering one specific craft and one specific part of a specific craft. So it's so compartmentalized. Let's let the viewers decide. Whoever gets more comments, this video or the Bob Lazar video that we did a couple weeks back. True. Wins. Wins. What do they win? The FMK competition that we're having a date with Christos and an extra small T shirt that we still have here at the campus society. The only thing we have left in stock, the extra small camp hoodie. Yeah. I'm curious. What do you guys think? If you're much more abreast, pun intended. I don't really know what the pun is there, but if you're more informed about all the. All the happenings of UAP research, please let me know if there's anything I missed on Hal put off. If there's, you know, if there's anything I got wrong, please let me know. But be nice about it, okay? I'm trying my best. I'm trying to learn in real time with you guys right now. Also, if there's anything that you didn't know or anything that blew your mind, please drop a comment. I read all of them. YouTube, Spotify, all that. If you like history stuff and deep dives on history, great news. You can check out History Camp. And if you just like to rock with these sort of, you know, miscellaneous deep dives and interviews with really interesting, smart people, way smarter than I am, that actually know what they're talking about, well, this is the place for you. Camp Gagma On. Thank you guys so much. If you want to come see me live and hang with other campers, other people that are like you, come check out my Stand up on the road markagnonlive.com, see all my tour dates and come out to a show. Because when you come out to a show and you hang with the people, for me, at least I feel more like myself, you know, it's. It's a nice time. So please join us. Also, you can check out the merch Camp R D. And we'll be here, you know, every week, twice a week. And yeah, check us out. God bless you all. Thank you so much for tuning into another episode of camp and I'll see you next time. Peace.