What Hollywood Got WRONG in The Odyssey

Summary

Podcast Summary:
Camp Gagnon – “What Hollywood Got WRONG in The Odyssey”
Date: August 5, 2026
Host: Mark Gagnon
Guest: Dr. Jack Vishnick (“Lantern Jack” of Ancient Greece Declassified)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into Christopher Nolan’s blockbuster film adaptation of The Odyssey, exploring its historical and literary accuracy with Dr. Jack Vishnick, a Princeton-educated classicist who has studied the Odyssey in ancient Greek. Through an animated and often humorous discussion, Dr. Vishnick identifies what the film did right, where it strayed from Homer’s epic, and what key moments—both missed and newly invented—impacted the story’s authenticity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Nolan’s Odyssey: Historian’s Rating & Initial Impressions

• Dr. Vishnick’s rating: 6 or 7 out of 10 (01:38)
• “Being somebody who has read the Odyssey so many times, including in Ancient Greek, I'm going to be more picky than most people.” – Dr. Jack Vishnick (01:44)
• Recitation of the Odyssey’s opening lines in Ancient Greek, set to a playful impromptu beat (01:56–02:55)
• Discussion on how the Odyssey was originally intended as an oral performance, not a written text (03:17)

Ancient Context vs. Modern Portrayal

• Odyssey as a lived, communal, often inebriated oral tradition—a performance at feasts or festivals (04:02–04:32)
• “You would [be drinking].” – Dr. Jack Vishnick, describing ancient Greek listening context (04:29)
• Conversations on historical drug use: Helen drugs the party with a potent Egyptian substance (possibly opium), a missed opportunity Nolan omitted (04:35–05:36)

Major Inaccuracies & Anachronisms in the Film

Armor and Helmets

• “Why are they wearing helmets when they're rowing on the boat?” (06:09)
• Critique of anachronistic armor: “These are much later helmets. They constrict your vision very severely. They're only useful if you are marching in a column of dudes.” (06:15–06:30)

Modernized Morality

• “I thought that the biggest problem was trying to force modern morality onto an ancient tale.” (06:34)
• Example: In Homer, Odysseus slays nearly all the suitors, sparing only a few—whereas Nolan’s Odysseus is more merciful (07:04–07:16)
• The meta-poetic resonance of Odysseus sparing the bard among the suitors, which the film missed (07:38–08:13)

Helen’s Twin & Divine Parentage

• Inaccurate twin portrayal in Nolan’s film (08:20)
• The mythic context: Greek stories of siblings with mixed divine-human parentage (09:00)
• “Helen is semi divine, which is why after... she and Menelaus are never going to die in the strict sense.” (09:41)

Racial Controversy in Casting

• Criticism from Greek audiences about casting a Black woman as Helen vs. the viewpoint that her distinctiveness fits the myth (10:30)
• Dr. Vishnick: “There were so many more important issues that Nolan got wrong.” (11:11)
• Irony that the only Greek-speaking actor played a non-Greek character (11:24–12:06)
• Commentary on race: “We're kind of putting a modern racialized lens on a period where race wasn't really a thing.” (12:06)

Notable Missed Opportunities

• Omission of the iconic “Nobody” trick with the Cyclops (14:45)
• Absence of moving land-of-the-dead sequence: Odysseus meeting his mother’s ghost (15:08–15:27)
• Dialogue between Penelope and Odysseus ahead of the bow contest—full of subtle coded signals in Homer, but missing in the film (19:26–20:03)

Positive Reinterpretations & Innovations

• Cersei’s Isle: Nolan invents a scene where Odysseus hunts a beast and discovers it’s a transformed human—a smart way to convey the horror of Cersei’s magic (15:45)
• Thematic improvements praised: Nolan merges the “moment of recognition” (dog Argos and son Telemachus recognizing Odysseus) with a reversal of fortune, a move Aristotle would have lauded (16:30–17:27)
  • “That would have the stamp of approval of Aristotle on it.” – Dr. Jack Vishnick (17:27)
• The musical and atmospheric tension of stringing the bow—though unrealistic, punctuates a pivotal moment (18:51–19:21)

Literary Interpretations of Penelope and Odysseus

• The continual mutual testing of Odysseus and Penelope, stressing their equality in cunning (21:28–23:07)
  • “Odysseus himself does this... he double checks and triple checks... this is why Odysseus survived.” (21:53–22:29)
  • Penelope’s endless testing: “She has to do the same thing... And then finally they're united. And when they're united they have homo frosune—they have like minded relationship, which Odysseus says is the greatest thing on earth.” (23:07–23:19)

The Disputed Ending

• On the often-overlooked civil war ending and divine memory-wipe: Dr. Vishnick defends its canonical status and thematic resonance (23:26–26:04)
  • “I think the existing ending we have is the best ending because... Ithaca will never be the powerful state it was once before... There's a sense in this poem, like, yeah, order was restored, but this is now a kind of fallen world.” (24:07–26:00)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• [02:56] “Amazing. I mean, that is so cool.” – Christos Gage on hearing the original Greek
• [07:38] “How cool is that? That you spare the guy who you want to sing of your exploits.” – Dr. Jack Vishnick
• [12:06] “Matt Damon is equally not Greek as Lupita. Like they're both not Greek. And we're kind of putting like a modern racialized lens on a period where race wasn't really a thing.” – Christos Gage
• [17:27] “That would have the stamp of approval of Aristotle on it.” – Dr. Jack Vishnick
• [23:19] “And when they're united they have homo frosune, they have like minded relationship, which Odysseus says is the greatest thing on earth.” – Dr. Jack Vishnick
• [26:00] “Order was restored, but this is now a kind of fallen world.” – Dr. Jack Vishnick

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:38 – Dr. Jack’s rating of Nolan’s Odyssey
• 01:56–02:55 – Ancient Greek recitation
• 06:09 – Discussion of armor anachronisms
• 06:34 – Insertion of modern morality
• 07:04–08:13 – The fate of the suitors and the bard’s meta role
• 09:41 – Helen’s divine status explained
• 12:06 – Racial controversy and historical context
• 14:45 – The omitted Cyclops “Nobody” sequence
• 15:45 – Nolan’s innovations on Cersei’s Isle
• 16:30–17:27 – Stamp of approval from Aristotle; recognition scene
• 19:26–20:03 – Penelope’s missing cunning
• 21:28–23:19 – Mutual testing of Odysseus and Penelope
• 24:07–26:00 – The deeper meaning of the Odyssey’s ending

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Tone & Closing

The conversation is witty, energetic, and nerdily profound, with Dr. Jack’s expertise grounded by Mark and Christos’s approachable enthusiasm for both ancient literature and big-screen spectacle. The discussion balances critique of Hollywood’s creative choices with recognition of cinematic innovation, all through a lens of scholarly appreciation for the epic’s complexity.

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For Listeners

This excerpt leaves listeners with a richer understanding of both the original Odyssey and what is gained and lost in its Hollywood reimagining, encouraging everyone to appreciate the enduring power—and cunning—of Homer’s world, no matter how it’s retold.

Transcript

[Mark Gagnon]

Christopher Nolan has brought the Odyssey to the big screen. But how accurate is the film to Homer's ancient epic? What did Christopher Nolan do better, and what were the things that he missed? Well, to find out, I sat down with Dr. Jack Vishnick, better known as Lantern Jack. He's the host of the YouTube channel Ancient Greece Declassified. He's got a PhD from Princeton, and he's studied the Odyssey in its original Greek. Jack reveals what Nolan got right, what the film changed, and which powerful moments were left behind, from anachronistic armor and modernized morality to. To the racial controversy. He even shares these surprising scenes that may have been even better than the original. This is the Odyssey through the eyes

[Christos Gage]

of an ancient historian.

[Mark Gagnon]

This mini episode is just an excerpt from my entire conversation with Jack. We go over two hours discussing his controversial theory that Odysseus may have discovered America. Yes, it is a fascinating episode, and he lays out the entire theory in extreme detail. So make sure you check that out later this week on the main channel, Camp Gagnon. But for today, if you want to hear an expert weigh in on the most debated film in America right now while you're in the right place.

[Christos Gage]

So sit back, relax, and welcome to History Camp. Now, before we go, I think we have maybe 25 minutes. Can I ask you some questions about the Odyssey? The film?

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Sure.

[Christos Gage]

So you saw the Odyssey, the most recent film by Christopher Nolan?

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Yeah.

[Christos Gage]

Outside. I don't want to speak out of turn here, but you gave me a rating out of 10.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Yeah.

[Christos Gage]

Could you share that with me now?

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Six or seven out of 10.

[Christos Gage]

Why?

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Well, okay, first of all, being somebody who has read the Odyssey so many times, including in Ancient Greek, I'm going to be more picky than most people.

[Christos Gage]

I mean, you can even recite the opening lines in Ancient Greek.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

I can.

[Christos Gage]

Would you mind spin a little Greek for us?

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Do you have a drum?

[Christos Gage]

Oh, no, but I can. I can give you a little beat, though.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Can you do like a dum? Bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum. There we go. Iden astea kai no. On egno polladhogen pontoi pathenal geahon katathumon arnumenos hein te psuheyn kainostonhetairon al udhos hetarus erus satohiemenosper auton gar svetereisin atas thalia sin olondo. There you go.

[Christos Gage]

Amazing. I mean, that is so cool.

[Mark Gagnon]

And so that's how it would be told.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Yeah. And for how many with a liar,

[Christos Gage]

how many hours would that Go on. For

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

we can't know for sure, but based on like the length of an English audiobook that covers the whole thing is about 12 to 14 hours. So it's possible that that's the time frame.

[Christos Gage]

Wow, that is fascinating. That recontextualizes so much of it. Right. Because we read it in a class in high school or college and it's just words on a page. It's kind of like when you read Shakespeare, you get the gist, but you lose so much because this is not a book to be read. It is a play or a performance to be experienced. And I imagine that this is probably the same exact way.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Yeah. And in fact, we know for sure that the Homeric rhapsodes that performed this, they could mimic different voices. They could get into like, like Marnan's voice and then Helen's voice and then, you know, whatever. Like they could. They would really get into character with all the different figures.

[Christos Gage]

And what would be the context that I would be listening to this if I'm an ancient Greek?

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Well, in, in Athens, there were like state sponsored festivals where you'd have a superstar on stage and maybe a thousand people watching. In the age of Homer, we don't know, but probably like, you know, probably the types of scenes depicted in the actual Odyssey where you have a feast put on by a king or local warlord in a great hall and a bard as entertaining. Maybe like a hundred people who are feasting.

[Christos Gage]

Would I be drinking?

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Definitely.

[Christos Gage]

I'd be hammered.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

You would?

[Christos Gage]

Nice. Would I be on drugs?

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Possibly. In book four of the Odyssey, when Telemachus visits Menelaus. By the way, this is a great missed opportunity for Nolan because Helen, Homer's Helen is way more formidable than Nolan's Helen. Okay. Homer's Helen drugs the whole party, really, when she sees that Telemachus is the son of Odysseus. And Menelaus is going to start like waxing nostalgic about Odysseus and the Trojan War, which she caused in this storyline. She's like, okay, this is gonna be bad for me. Let me drug everybody's wine. And she uses an Egyptian drug that is so potent that if you take it, even if your child is being torn to pieces in front of you, you will still not shed a tear. So there we have like this type of scene where a bard might be present. He's not in this case, but drugs were definitely known and described.

[Christos Gage]

What do you think that could be? I mean, it sounds like ecstasy.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

The main theory is opium.

[Christos Gage]

Ah, so you're Just on heroin.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

I'm not an expert, but yeah, that's wild.

[Christos Gage]

I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm. I mean, again, I've never done heroin. Not yet. But my understanding is like, that's, it's how you. It's from the poppy, right?

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

It's not. Well, again, it's not mentioned that it's poppy. It's just mentioned that it's from Egypt. And there has been speculation that Egypt was importing opium from, you know, Central Asia or something. Again, through various indirect intermediaries.

[Christos Gage]

Now, what other discrepancies from the film to your understanding of the original Greek are you bothered? You.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Okay, the first thing is like, why are they wearing helmets when they're rowing on the boat?

[Christos Gage]

Hilarious.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Or wandering in a forest? First of all, the helmets are anachronistic. These are much later helmets. They constrict your vision very severely. They're only useful if you are marching in a column of dudes. And you're only going to go forward if you're walking in a forest where there might be like dangerous creatures around you. You don't want to wear this helmet. All right. I thought that the biggest problem was trying to force modern morality onto an ancient tale. Like, it's. To me, one of the main values of the Homeric epics is that they have such a different morality. And even if we find it shocking or, or we don't want to accept that morality, shouldn't we know how other human societies saw the world morally?

[Christos Gage]

What's the clearest example?

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Well, the clearest example is that Odysseus kills all the suitors. Right, right. Like, can we do spoilers here?

[Christos Gage]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a 2000 year old story. If you haven't heard of it now. I mean, too late.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Well, because in Nolan's version, he doesn't kill all the suitors. Okay. He spares quite a few of them. In Homer, he only spares like two or three. That's another missed opportunity. Because you know how like in the final scene, Odysseus, Matt Damon, Odysseus prophecies that only songs will remember them, that no writing will survive. Right. Well, in, in the actual Odyssey, one of the few people that Homer, that, that Odysseus spares is the bard. The guy who's singing. He is one of the suitors technically, but he's also like the singer of epic tales to the suitors. So how cool is that? That you spare the guy who you want to sing of your exploits.

[Christos Gage]

Right.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

You know that's kind of totally missed.

[Christos Gage]

Yeah. It's sort of poetic to be like, I'm gonna kill everyone except for you. Go tell this tale to the next person. And then when you're watching it live at a festival, you're like, oh, that's the guy that got spared. Like, it feels it becomes meta in a way.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Yeah.

[Christos Gage]

Oh, that's cool. Now, my friend Alex pointed out that he thought it was weird that Helen has a twin.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Yeah.

[Christos Gage]

Now, I know that in some retellings, and it's been disputed that there is this twin theory with Helen, but he says if she's the most beautiful woman ever, that you're going to send a thousand ships for if she has a twin sister. Doesn't that kind of Nerf that whole point?

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Yeah. So in. Again, in the original, they are sisters, but not twin sisters. I'm not sure why Nolan did that. Maybe just to not have to find another actor, you know, but it's a little cheaper. But there's these weird cases of twins where one twin is divine and the other isn't. Okay, so, like, have you heard of Castor and Pollux? Mm.

[Christos Gage]

Or.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

So Castor and Pollux and Helen and Clytemnestra are two cases where you have two twins, two pairs of twins, and in each case, for some reason, one twin gets the divine parentage and the other does not. Sorry, they're not twins, they're siblings. But one of them gets the divine parentage, one of them doesn't. I think it might be that, like, so you have this, like, you know, beautiful woman and a God sleeps with her, but her husband also sleeps with her. And perhaps one of the children has the divine parentage.

[Christos Gage]

It's like a Maury Povich.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Anyway, it's a common theme in. Or it's a well known theme in Greek mythology that you can have siblings where one of them is divine, one of them is not. So Helen is semi divine, which is why after, which is why she and Menelaus are never going to die in the strict sense. But they will be transported to the Isles of. To Elysium, to the Elysian Field. Menelaus is prophesied, too, that he will not die, but because he has a divine wife, they will be taken by the gods to the Elysian Field across the ocean, another reference to a land across the ocean, where they will live there forever, basically. Okay, so Clytemnestra is a less attractive, less divine sibling in the original.

[Christos Gage]

Interesting. Now, my buddy Andrew pointed out, he said that he actually liked the casting because many people would say, like, I know there's a lot of uproar from specifically the Greeks. Right, Christos. Where they would say, like, oh, why are they casting a black woman in the space of a, you know, an ancient Greek? This is completely anachronistic. They're erasing Greek culture. My friend Andrew says she's actually the most exotic person and that like her ethnicity or her skin tone actually creates a distinction where she looks unique to the people. As far as the, like, the racial dynamic, it feels like it was a little bit overblown. But I'm curious your perspective as a historian on this specific time.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Well, I think that there were. I think there were so many more important issues that Nolan got wrong.

[Christos Gage]

You're worried about the helmets? It's very niche.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Yeah. I mean, like the only person in the cast who either was Greek or spoke Greek was a person who played a non Greek.

[Christos Gage]

Hilarious.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

So the first stop after Troy is Ismarus. It's not mentioned by name in the movie, but the first stop they make where they plunder this coastal village and there's this survivor and he's this old man and he tells them they're like, we're Greeks from Ithaca. And he speaks modern Greek to them. The actor is a Greek. Okay. And in the movie he's speaking modern Greek and he's saying, if you go west, troubles await you. And then he has to be translated to these so called Greeks.

[Christos Gage]

Hilarious.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

It's just like, seriously?

[Christos Gage]

Yeah, that is a good distinction. Right? Like, Matt Damon is equally not Greek as Lupita. Like they're both not Greek. And we're kind of putting like a modern racialized lens on a period where race wasn't really a thing. Right. Like, it was just sort of nationality. Is that fair to say?

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Well, I mean, I don't know how much race was a thing. I think, I think Greece was definitely not as multicultural as it appears to be in the, in the film, you know, but there's a lot we don't know, so.

[Christos Gage]

Also weren't speaking English.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Yeah.

[Mark Gagnon]

Hey, guys, we're going to take a

[Christos Gage]

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[Mark Gagnon]

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[Christos Gage]

If you are listening to this program right now, when you use the code camp you will get 15% off. When you go to take ultra.com that is takeultra.com use the code camp for 15% off. And after you purchase they're going to ask where you heard about them. Tell them that Mark and Christo's from the campsite sent you. Now let's get back to the show. Now another element that I mentioned before that is my favorite part of the book, at least when I read it in high school I was like, oh that's so clever. Is when he tells the cyclops that he's nobody.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Yeah.

[Christos Gage]

Do you have a theory as to why that was cut out? Did it bother you that that element was removed?

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Well, I did see that Nolan was asked this, I think, by Jon Stewart in an interview, and he says, we just couldn't work it in. It was impossible. So, I don't know. I mean, look, there's a lot of unfortunate choices. I think maybe I should tell you, like, what I thought was done well, though.

[Christos Gage]

Yeah. I mean, before we get to that, I just want to know if there's any other details. You're like, ah, this was a missed opportunity. This is the best part. Da, da, da. Things that people don't know. I mean, the land of the dead, where he holds his mother three times and she, like, evaporates and moves through him and she dies of, you know, a broken heart waiting for him. That's like the most beautiful part of the whole poem.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Yeah.

[Christos Gage]

And it's also omitted, so I'm like, ugh.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

I mean, look, if you're gonna take a. What was a 14 hour performance and make it into a three hour film, you have to cut things that are gonna be really sad to cut.

[Christos Gage]

Fair.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Okay. At the same time, I think Nolan could have done some really awesome things that he didn't do. You know, like, one is to actually show the ancient morality in all its shocking alien aspects. Right. And. But I will say that there were some really, really clever things that he did tell me. Okay. Like when Odysseus in the land of. In Cersei's Isle, when he. When he goes hunting and he shoots the deer and then he goes to retrieve the body, and it's a human body. That's not in Homer. It's a brilliant touch to give Odysseus a way of understanding what's happening on this island, that you have a witch turning humans into beasts. And then here's one that he did that I think Aristotle would have approved, because Aristotle said that the power of tragedy, and Homer, he takes to be a kind of related form of art to tragedy. The power of tragedy is most vividly seen in moments of reversal and recognition. So when fortunes suddenly change or when somebody recognizes somebody, those are the powerful moments. And he says the best tragedies combine them. So the moment of recognition is also the moment of reversal of fortune. And in this case, Nolan is not in the original, but Nolan made the moment where the dog Argos recognizes Odysseus to coincide with the moment where Telemachus recognizes Odysseus, which also then marks the reversal. Because now Telemachus knows that things are different. Right.

[Christos Gage]

So I'm not going to get killed. Things are turning around.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Exactly. So that would have been a that would have the stamp of approval of Aristotle on it.

[Christos Gage]

Wow, that's a great way to look at this. I think so many people are trying to skewer the original and say, like, oh, they ruined it and destroyed it and Hollywood effed up the whole movie. Well, there are elements that are changed, and perhaps some of those criticisms are legitimate. But it is also possible that in certain elements, Nolan did better than Homer. And that is quite an achievement, even if he does it once. I mean, I know this is probably breaking Christos heart. He's like, no, dude, Homer's the best. No one could ever be Homer. But that part right there, it's not something I even considered, like, in that one single moment. It does two things at once that even the rhapsodes of old didn't do.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Yeah.

[Christos Gage]

Wow, that's a great point. And that is also maybe the most beautiful part. Argo seeing his owner and being like. And then dying immediately after, and Odysseus shedding one single tear and wiping it away. It's perfect. I mean, truly perfect.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

It's gold.

[Mark Gagnon]

Right?

[Christos Gage]

It's also a great name for a dog that I feel like not enough people are using. Right. Like, I always meet Fidos all the time. How many Lunas have I met in the last year? Give me an Argos. That's the best dog name I've ever heard. I think there's going to be a big explosion, though. There's going to be a big explosion of Argos in the next two years. Watch now. Anything else that you saw in the film that you thought could have been different was a deviation, but you didn't mind or was even better than the original.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Well, I like to think of the positive things because there's a lot of negatives I don't want to, you know, do that. But one more thing that was cool is the sound that the bow makes when you pluck it. Now, that's totally unrealistic. Okay. A bow of that tension would have sounded like Bing, you know, hilarious.

[Christos Gage]

Yeah. You want. You want bass?

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

What. What you hear is like the. The thickest, biggest string of a harp with that whole resonating chamber available. Yeah, right.

[Christos Gage]

It feels like a. Like a tool intro, you know? That's what you want.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

That was obviously like, you know, the sound was overlaid with harp or something. But what I like there is that in the scene with the challenge of the bow. Right. Oh, another missed opportunity. The interview between Penelope and Odysseus. Right. The original is way better, man. Like, she's so much Smarter, and they kind of speak in codes. And he kind of signals to her that he's Odysseus without saying it outright. And then she kind of gets it. And then she says, so, what should I do? And then he says, well, I think you should announce the bow challenge, which is totally not in the movie. Right?

[Christos Gage]

Right.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

And then she's like, okay, sounds good. So, like, you can read. It's not like, you know, it's not uncontroversial, but you can read into that scene in Homer that he's giving her a signal. She's getting it. She's asking for advice. He gives it, and then she's like, okay. And it's like they've conspired together. That's totally missed in the. In the movie. But then what is cool is so he. He starts stringing the bow. And all these suitors are angry and they're jeering and they're insulting him. And, like, you feel like at any moment they might just charge him and beat him up. Right. And the. And the music is growing in tension and growing and growing and growing. And then at the moment of the climax of the musical crescendo, he goes, bang. Yeah. And then the music stops, right? Like, shit just got real.

[Christos Gage]

And it's like, yeah, it's awesome.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Yeah.

[Christos Gage]

But now, also, in the home, it's not something I ever understood. And from my reading of the excerpts of the original, where it's like, okay, he's talking to Penelope. He's like, let's do this bow thing. She's like, all right, let's do it. And then even after he does that, she still is not sure. And she's like, move my bed out of the chamber. And then he's like, well, you can't move the bed. I made that bed. It's an active olive tree. It's like this whole thing, it makes me think that she still didn't believe it even after this whole feat and threading the bow and shooting through the axe handles, all that. So in your interpretation from the original Homeric, at what point does she know Odysseus is really him?

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Well, I think the purpose of her at least feigning disbelief and making him prove himself is because Homer wants her to be an equal to him in cunning. If she had just said, oh, you're home, honey.

[Christos Gage]

Thank.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Oh, I love you so much.

[Christos Gage]

Like, no, prove it with the axe

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

handles, that would be.

[Christos Gage]

But after you do that, then she got to come down and be like, all right, it's you.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

I get It, But Odysseus himself does this, right? Like when Odysseus goes like, Odysseus doesn't just check people's intentions, he double checks and triple checks and triple tests, right? Like after he kills the suitors and he goes to see his father, his father is like plowing the earth all muddy and dirty. And you'd think he would just say, dad, I'm home. But instead he makes up yet another tale of who he is, which is a lie. And he says, oh yeah, I saw this, he's dead. And his dad like collapses, almost dies of like a heart attack. He's like, oh, just kidding, it's me dead.

[Christos Gage]

Right? Yeah, just pump fakes on him for no reason.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

And you might be like again, somebody with modern morality coming in just like, that's so cruel. It's like, but, but this is why Odysseus survived because he's that kind of person who tests even the people that he should trust. He's that suspicious and that crafty and that cunning, that of all the people that went on this long saga, only he made it home. Right?

[Christos Gage]

Right.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

And then Penelope, I think the poet Homer, other bards, they want her to be his match in cunning. And so she has to do the same thing. She has to test him and double test him and triple test him.

[Christos Gage]

Right.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

And then finally they're united. And when they're united they have homo frosune, they have like minded relationship, which Odysseus says is the greatest thing on earth.

[Christos Gage]

So don't look at it as, you know, a great hero that's godlike and a damsel in distress. Look at it almost as like spy versus spy.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Yes.

[Christos Gage]

Where it's like they're both testing each other the entire time, all the way up until the very end. Now, in the disputed ending of the original Homer, there's a great civil war and all the families of the suitor start fighting and there's a whole thing. And then Athena comes down and Zeus is like, guys, stop. And wipes everybody's memory. I've heard it said that that's not really accepted. What say you on that rendition of memory?

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

What do you mean it's not accepted?

[Christos Gage]

I've heard that a lot of scholars have said, no, no, it ends after the olive tree bed situation and then happily ever after. But that additional ending where there's a civil war and Zeus has to throw a thunderbolt, is that part accepted by Homer's.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

There's always some scholars who think, well, maybe the original ending was here or Maybe Homer should have ended it there, but, I mean, the manuscripts agreed that it ends after the divine intervention. And I think, to me, I think the existing ending we have is the best ending because to me, the Odyssey, in the same way that the Iliad is a faint altered memory of the coalition warfare that attended the Bronze Age collapse, the Odyssey, to me, is a faint memory of the chaotic migrations that also followed the Bronze Age collapse. And so when, like, there is a sense in the ending of this epic poem that Ithaca will never be the powerful state it was once before, right? Like, Odysseus regains his throne, but at a huge cost to the community, and he's not happy about killing them. Like, there's this great line where after he kills all the suitors except for, like, three, the nurse Heraclia, who recognizes scar, she comes into the hall, right? And she's about to, like, she opens her mouth to be like, woohoo. And Odysseus, like, grabs her throat and says, it is not right to rejoice over slain men. So he. The poem is at great pains to make it feel like he did this out of necessity in order to establish order, to establish his rightful place, so forth. But it's not a good. It's not a happy ending. It's not a good thing for Ithaca. Ithaca will never be the same. Just like after the Bronze Age collapse, the Greek. A lot of the Greek areas, they went on, they survived in a sense, but they never achieved their former glory until the end of the Dark Ages, four centuries later. And so there's a sense in this poem, like, yeah, order was restored, but this is now a kind of fallen world.

[Christos Gage]

Right? And the fact that the gods had to come down and wipe everyone's memory.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Yeah.

[Christos Gage]

Is that necessary? Like, sometimes it feels a little deus ex machina to me.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

It's a bit of a dev6mark, you know?

[Christos Gage]

Okay, fair. We agree on that. All right, well, Dr. Jack, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for the time. Truly, I am always honored to be in the presence of someone that is a scholar that is willing to come down to my level and explain the details and answer all my frivolous questions. So truly, it means the world, and I would love to do it again.

[Dr. Jack Vishnick]

Thanks so much. I've been following your show for a while, so it's an honor to be here and I hope to be back.

[Christos Gage]

Let's do it.

[Mark Gagnon]

Hey, guys. If you love conspiracies and hypothetical history, well, I want to invite you to

[Christos Gage]

check out signal 33.

[Mark Gagnon]

Companion pod to our podcast here at camp. It's made and edited by the same

[Christos Gage]

team that runs all of our shows, and I choose the topics every single week.

[Mark Gagnon]

So check it out.

[Christos Gage]

Subscribe and start the dialogue in the comment section.