A (8:38)
He said that the real wreckage had been swapped out and replaced with pieces of a weather balloon. So General Ramey held a press conference announcing that this whole flying disc business that everyone's talking about, it's not what you think, okay? This is just a standard Rawan target. This is basically just a weather balloon with a radar reflector attached to it, okay? And the press basically just accepted the explanation. They were like, oops are bad. And for the next 30 years, that was the story. Now, here's the thing that's weird with Roswell. It didn't become the UFO case immediately. It wasn't like, oh, we're all gonna go to the Roswell Inn and, you know, buy alien merchandise. Like, it wasn't that for three decades. It was just kind of, like, forgotten. And the Roswell story was basically dead. Of course, you had, like, your casual UFO hobbyist that would talk about it, but, you know, they said they got something. Turns out they were wrong. They showed us pictures. Looks like a weather balloon. Case closed. Then, in 1978, a nuclear physicist and a UFO researcher named Stanton Friedman was giving a lecture in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. And after the talk, someone went up to him, and they were basically like, you should talk to Jesse Marcel. He handled the wreckage from a crash flying saucer in Roswell. So, of course, Dan Friedman is, you know, fascinated by this. So he goes to track Marcel down. And Marcel, now retired in his 60s, told a story that hadn't changed since 1947. And he basically told him, the material that I've recovered at that crash was not from Earth. He described metallic beams with strange purple symbols or like hieroglyphs on them, you know, that basically no one in the entire unit could identify. He described material so thin that it looked like tin foil, but it couldn't be bent or cut or burned. It was, like, almost indestructible. You could literally hit it with a sledgehammer and it wouldn't even dent. And then he said that the military covered up the real nature of the debris, and he basically stood on that story for his entire life. Now, Marcel's testimony kicked off a chain reaction. In 1980, Charles Berlitz and William Moore published a book called the Roswell Incident. And suddenly, the whole case was blown wide open again. More witnesses started coming out. Some were military personnel, some were civilians, and some even told stories that went beyond the debris. Now, this is where we get to alien bodies. Now, again, this is all pretty wild, especially for the time, but now you have people like Dave Grush going in front of Congress saying, we have recovered non human biologics. What does any of this mean? I don't know. But regardless, Glenn Davis. All right, this guy's a mortician working at the Ballard Funeral Home in Roswell in 1947. So the base calls up this funeral home and is like, hey, do you guys have, like, caskets that seal perfect? Like, hermetically sealed caskets? And then they're like, oh, what chemicals would best preserve bodies that have been exposed to the elements? And then they were asking, like, how would you handle remains that had been out in the desert sun? Just kind of like, you know, strange questions that you could kind of chalk up to. Just like, I guess they, you know, had a soldier that died out in the. In the desert or something. Now, Dennis claimed that when he later drove to the base hospital for an unrelated matter, he saw strange debris in one of the ambulances, debris with weird symbols on it, eerily similar to the ones described by Jess Marcel. He said he was confronted by military police and even threatened and then allegedly escorted off the base. Now, he also claims that a nurse at the base, whom he identified as Naomi Self, told him that she had been present during a preliminary autopsy of these small, non human beings. She allegedly sketched the beings for him. And the beings that she sketched had large heads and Small frames and weird hands. Now, what does any of this mean? No one knows. Again, the skeptics take on this Glenn Dennis situation is pretty brutal, but I think we should discuss it. Researchers have never been able to verify the existence of this nurse, Naomi Self, never in the Roswell files or on this Air Force base or, you know, anyone there having this name. And the name may be a pseudonym or maybe it was just completely fabricated, we don't know. Dennis has also changed some of the details over the years and critics call his account possibly the weakest link in the Roswell chain. Over the decades, dozens of military veterans and their family members have claimed even up until late in their life that non human remains were recovered at Roswell. So Walter Haut, the same press officer who wrote that original flying disc release, remember him? He signed a sealed affidavit to be opened after his death. When he died in 2005, this affidavit was released and in it Hout claimed he personally saw the craft and the bodies in a base hangar. He said Colonel Blanchard took him to see the wreckage and the beings were about 4ft tall. Now whether you believe this account or not, you just have to kind of reckon with the fact that like multiple career military officers made these claims, knowing that it would bring them ridicule, affect their careers, affect the way that people perceived them and their families and their whole legacy. Legacy. I mean, like these weren't just anonymous people on the Internet being like, oh, I saw some lights. No, these are men with actual service records, security clearances and reputations and expertise in the field who had virtually nothing to gain by speaking out and a lot to lose. So according to the lore, again, the debris field on Mac Brazell's ranch was just the beginning. Many researchers believe that there was actually a second crash site often cited as being near the San Agustin plains, where the main fuselage of the craft allegedly came down intact. Now this is where the recovery teams allegedly found the occupants of the craft. It said that there were four beings, three were dead, and their bodies were mangled by the impact and by exposure to predators. But the fourth, this is the crazy part. The fourth was allegedly found to be alive. Now I know it sounds crazy, but let me explain. This ripple in the story brings us to one of the more credible witnesses in this entire saga. It's this guy, Captain Horror Oliver Henderson, also known as Pappy. Now Pappy Henderson was a senior pilot at Roswell with a top secret clearance. He flew high ranking officers and critical cargo. And for basically 30 years, he kept his mouth shut. But in the 1970s, after seeing a news report about the crash, he finally broke his silence to his wife and then later to his daughter. And he sees the stuff on the news and he basically looks at his wife and he's like, well, I personally flew the wreckage and the bodies out of Roswell. And he described these beings that he saw get loaded into the plane as small, and they had large heads and kind of sunken eyes. And that he said that the material he flew was, quote, out of this world. So where did Pappy fly them? Well, the flight logs and the witness testimonies point to one place. And this is Wright Field in Dayton, Ohio, also known as the Wright Patterson Air Force Base. Now, if you follow UFO lore, then you'll probably know that Wright Patterson is kind of the Holy Grail. Even if you're not into UFOs and you just like military tech, Wright Patterson is like up there. Okay, this is the home of the Foreign Technology Division. This is where the military takes enemy tech to basically reverse engineer it. And I mean, there's like all the coolest aircrafts and, you know, the B2 spirits and all that stuff. A lot of them are at Wright Patterson. Now, according to the legend in the UFO lore, this is where the Roswell wreckage and the remains were taken, specifically to a place within the base called Hangar 18, also known as the Blue Room. Now, of course, this Hangar 18 and this whole allegation is what exists in the UFO lore. This is an allegation. It's not actually substantiated fact. The government hasn't come out and been like, yeah, we took the remains, put them in Hangar 18. But this is what people have put together. Hardcore fans will tell you that the survivor, often referred to as ebe Extraterrestrial Biological Entity, was kept alive at a secret facility, some say Los Alamos, some say Wright Patterson up until 1952. Now, is there proof? Do we have photographs? Do we have people on the record saying, yes, this happened? No. But it is a fact that in July 1947, multiple cargo flights were authorized from Roswell to Fort Worth and then from Fort Worth to Wright Patterson. So the movement of heavy cargo did happen. Now the question is, was it weather balloons? Was it random military cargo or was it non human intelligence put onto this plane? Who's to say? Hey, we're going to take a break really quick because I need to talk to the fellas. All right, if you're a woman, you can skip forward. I don't really care. But guys, I want to Talk about one of the most probably demoralizing things that can ever happen to you. All right, you're in the bathroom, you're brushing your teeth, you look up in the mirror, and suddenly you realize, my forehead looks bigger than it did before. Well, the thing with that is that men don't go bald overnight. Right, Christos? Anyway, it's sneaky, okay? It's like, all right, well, the lighting here is a little weird. 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They say that this debris came from a top secret operation called Project Mogul. Now, this was a completely classified program that basically launched high altitude balloons in a specific array designed to detect Soviet nuclear test through this acoustic monitoring technology. Now, these Mogul balloons were basically like a bunch of standard weather balloons strung together in like a chain. And they all carried radar reflectors and acoustic sensors. Now, flight number four launched in early June 1947, and they say was likely the candidate that caused the debris in farmer Brazel's field. Now, honestly, on the surface, this explanation works really well. Project Mogul was real and was classified at the time. The balloon arrays were large and pretty unusual, and they could easily scatter debris across a wide field if they crashed. And of course, the material that it's made of is rubbery and metallic in shape and has a lot of, you know, wood sticks. And it matches some of the descriptions of the debris from Farmer Brazil. But here's where critics will go at this theory. Charles Moore, one of the Project Mogul scientists, admitted that he had no direct evidence that flight number four ever actually launched the flight Records for that specific launch are missing. Most of the other Mogul flight records were meticulously logged. Some of the early ones were a little bit spotty, but. But after a certain date, they were all detailed very accurately. But not the one that supposedly explains the Roswell crash. Now, another interesting detail. The radar reflectors used in Operation Mogul were made with a novelty tape manufactured by a toy company. So the tape was essentially decorated with, like, designs and, like, little flowers and symbols, stuff that, like, kids would use for, like, arts and crafts. And skeptics will argue that this explains the alien hieroglyphics that the witnesses like Marcel and others described. Now, believers argue that career intelligence officers wouldn't mistake, like, toy kids tape decorations for unknown hieroglyphics. But again, this contributes to the theory. Then in 1997, the Air Force released another report called the Roswell Report. Colon, case closed. This time addressing the alien bodies question. And their explanation was basically, the bodies that witnesses described were actually anthropomorphic test dummies dropped from high altitude balloons as a part of Project High dive in the 1950s. Whoa. So how do we unpack that? Okay, basically, you had this operation, Project High Dive, that we're using dummy drops. But people will point out that those dummy drops didn't officially begin until 1953. This is six years after the Roswell incident. Now, the Air Force acknowledged this timeline discrepancy and attributed to compressed repressed memories, basically saying that the witnesses that were on that base might have merged events from different years into a single false memory. So, sure, you witnessed this weather balloon thing from Project Mogul. It landed in this field, you saw some of the stuff you thought, okay, ufo. And then years later, you came to the base and you saw these weird dummies, and you were like, oh, that must be the bodies. And you said that it happened within a few weeks, but actually it happened over, like, seven years. And that explains the discrepancy. So that is more or less the official explanation of that detail. But when you put it all together, it just makes it feel a little weird. Right? The official explanation requires you to say, all right, elite military intelligence officers couldn't identify balloon debris, and then they saw some tape for a kid's toy, and they thought maybe it was, like, alien hieroglyphics. And then there was one specific flight log that really matters in order to confirm that it was an operation. But actually, that's the one that they don't really have documented. And then multiple witnesses independently have similar memories about these, like, bodies. That are all like memory compressions from six years earlier. And then the government comes out and says that it's a saucer. Then they actually say it's a weather balloon. They actually say it's not a regular weather balloon. It's actually a weather balloon, a part of an operation. It might be true. It's just a lot. It's just hard to really parse it because there's lies that are covering smaller lies that are kind of covering half truths when you maybe probably didn't need a lie in the first place. Now, here's what a lot of people miss about the whole Roswell thing. That even if you're a total skeptic, the case fundamentally changed the relationship between the American government and its citizens, specifically on the topic of unidentified aerial phenomena. Now, in my opinion, it's also no mistake that a lot of this came after the 1960s, because if you think about the 60s in American history, that is really the moment that the American people completely lost faith in the government. I mean, you have the assassination of jfk, you have the assassination of mlk, you have RFK going down. You got. I mean, Vietnam. So many things all happening in unison. The church committee. There's so many things all happening that Basically by the 1970s, the American people don't trust the institutions that are set to govern us at all. So then they start looking back at these old things and they say, hey, remember this little crash that they said was actually just a weather balloon? Let's look back at that. I mean, remember this happened in 1947, the same year that the CIA was created, that the National Security act was signed, and that the Cold War framework was officially established. The same infrastructure that was built to manage these nuclear secrets and Soviet threats became the same infrastructure that was managing this whole Roswell UFO information, if you can even call it that. And the connections also don't stop there. So Project Blue Book, this is the air Force's official UFO investigation program that, that officially ran from 1952 to 1969, was largely created because cases like Roswell kept coming up. And it kind of proved that the military needed a way to manage public UFO interest. Because if you think about it from their perspective, one of two things are true. Like, hey, maybe there's some weird stuff happening out there that's coming to Earth and we need to have a story for it. Or, hey, we're running these military operations and they keep crashing and people think that it's aliens and we need to have a story for it in order to cover our own tracks for our failed missions. Either way, they need to have some type of story. So Project Blue book investigated over 12,000 sightings, and they actually claimed that 701 of them were officially unexplained. Now, in fairness, that's a pretty small percentage, but still, 701singular events are just unexplained by the government. Now, what that means maybe they're covering up for some type of security failure or their own operation, or maybe there's really something going on. But still, we don't have any type of information. And then you have the MJ12 documents. These are allegedly leaked papers describing a secret committee of 12 government and military leaders established by Truman in 1947 specifically to manage the Roswell recovery and all future extraterrestrial contact. Now, let me just say again that this is just conspiracy fodder. We don't have actual concrete evidence of this. And the FBI investigated these documents and basically said that they were bogus. And many researchers agree. But other people will point out that the people named in this MJ12, people like Vannevar Bush, James Forrestal, Roscoe Hillenkoder, are exactly the people that you would expect to be on this type of committee. And they all had documented interest in this UFO subject. I mean, a matter of fact, I actually spoke with Danny Sheehan and had him on the pod and he talked about MJ12, and he actually mentioned that Dick Cheney, in his opinion, may have been one of the 12 members. Now, if that's true, MJ12 had just acquired a new member, considering that Cheney recently passed away. So Fast forward to 2017. The New York Times reveals the existence of a TIP, aka the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program. And this is basically a secret Pentagon project that spent $22 million studying this unidentified aerial phenomena. And since then, the US government has released verified Navy footage of objects performing maneuvers that no one could really explain. The go fast video, the Tic Tac video, the gimbal video. And now you have congressional hearings that are being held and a formal UAP task force was already created. And Dave Grush, like I mentioned before, a former intelligence officer testified under oath before Congress in 2023 that the government possessed non human craft and biologics. It's a lot. And it all happened very fast. I mean, we went from UFOs are nonsense. And you know, this whole thing is crazy. And this is a weather balloon. You guys are all out to lunch to. The Pentagon has a UFO office and we have actual intelligence officers telling our elected officials that the Government has aliens in less than like a decade. I mean, if you think about that shift, that's a massive change in how the most powerful people and arguably the most powerful government on earth talks about this subject. And ultimately how many people in our country are thinking about this topic. And every single one of those modern revelations traces a line in a way back to a ranch in New Mexico when this guy named Mac Brazell found something weird in his pasture in 1947. So where does that leave us on Roswell if we take away some of the speculation and like some of the crazy stuff and really just stick with what everyone agrees on? Something landed on this guy's ranch in 1947 and the military recovered it. I mean, that part is, is concrete. And they issued a press release and they said it was a flying disc. And then within 24 hours they retracted it and then changed their official explanation. And then they changed their explanation two more times in 47 and then 97. And officially the case file is, you know, kind of incomplete. There's key records that are still missing, and everything beyond that is just kind of interpretation. You know, maybe it was this Mogul balloon program and the COVID up was trying to protect like this Cold War surveillance technology. Because if they come out and say, hey, we've recovered one of our own monitoring systems to try to track the Soviets during the Cold War, then of course the Soviets would have access to that press release. So they're better off saying, yeah, it's just a regular old weather balloon or yeah, it's a flying saucer. Who knows? Whatever you guys think, I don't know if they realize how big that story would actually be. And you know, it's plausible. Governments lie about classified programs all the time. Now maybe, possibly the reason the story keeps changing is because the truth is something that the government decided in 47 that Americans are not ready to hear. Now. I don't know, and maybe that's the point. What I do know is that the Roswell case isn't just about a crash in the desert. It's about trust. It's truly about. It's, in a way, it's kind of like the first moment after World War II where people within the United States really started to distrust our government. And then all that explodes after the 1960s when there's no more trust in the government at all. And in an era where information is everywhere and public trust is at our lowest, the real legacy of Roswell isn't necessarily the wreckage that's in the desert. It is really the Wreckage of public trust that, you know, you can have this thing and the government comes and tells us what it is, and everyone unanimously is just like, I kind of doubt it. And that, to me, is almost as concerning as aliens, that no matter what anyone says, no one believes anything. And, I mean, that's maybe a different topic, but it is concerning, regardless. This has been an abridged history of the infamous Roswell incident of 1947. It's pretty interesting. I mean, to be honest with you, the Roswell thing never fully pushed me over. Like, to be honest, like the New York Times articles and a lot of the footage that came out of that reporting I have found to be much more compelling. But I do think it symbolizes something important. That one, the government, I don't know if they realized that this flying saucer thing was not like a weird little. Oh, yeah, we think it's interesting. As an American populace, it's like, no, if you guys say there's flying saucers, that's the most interesting story of the last hundred years. So why they initially said flying saucer when they published it? Maybe it was like a joke. I don't know, to be honest with you. The project mogul story I actually think kind of makes sense. I think, like, yeah, you're doing these military operations. They're nearby. Sure. They don't have the exact dating, but a lot of the early dating of that type of operation was a little spotty. And then they got better as time went on. So it's like, it's not crazy to me. And the fact that this farmer went out there and he was like, yeah, there's sticks and rubber and, you know, metal. Like, the fact that he wasn't like, you know, there's a giant hole in my yard with this saucer thing I've never seen before. The fact that his explanation of the debris was, like, a little bit, you know, more casual to me, it kind of makes me feel like it was this type of secret military operation that went awry. Now, why they. They covered it up in the way that they did, I don't know. It feels so weird to me. And it is interesting that it exploded after the 60s. To me, that that is, like, the most important thread here that you can see the distrust of America with the government happening in real time based off this event that it happens, and there's like, a little dip in distrust. But people kind of like, roll with it until the 60s happen. Then distrust goes so low, and that's when the story explodes. And I don't know there's been research on this. There's a book, the the Day After Roswell that alleges that a lot of American military tech came out of this Roswell incident and that they did actually recover a craft. And as a result, we have like silicone chips and all these amazing inventions that went to like these skunk work programs around the country, including Wright Patterson where they reverse engineered all of it. I'm. This one, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not convinced on this one. All right, again, New York Times, one gimbal video that I'm like, all right, we got something here. The Roswell one. I just don't know. And the nature of the COVID up is just so sloppy. That's where like that's maybe the most insulting thing is like, hey, sure, it was a military operation gone sideways. You didn't want to reveal your secrets. I get it, you kind of covered it up. But how stupid do they think we are? This is what I realized with populations in general. Like, let's say you have a hundred people, you can be like, all right, you know, half of them are that smart. Half of them are a little smart. You know, there's people in the middle, like, you kind of have like this bell curve of intelligence. But the thing is, you don't need all of them to be smart in order to, you know, find you out. Let's say 90% of people in this sample are pretty dumb. You only need one smart guy to put all the pieces together and point to all the right stuff and solve the mystery for everyone else to be like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. Like, you don't need everyone to be smart. You can have most people be dumb. And if you just have a few smart, dedicated people that are on the case figuring it out, they can put everyone else on. And then people are smart enough to be like, oh, no, that story actually makes complete sense. And that's the part with the COVID If I'm like, they think we're pretty dumb. Like, they thought that no one was ever going to put this together. Like, hey, this whole story is pretty strange. Now, as far as the personal testimonies of people that claim that they flew bodies and stuff like that, I mean, sure, it's interesting. I don't see what the motive they have to lie is. But still, it is just one guy's testimony. And it's hard for me to stake my entire philosophy about just, you know, one guy's testimony that he told his wife and Then later went to a newspaper that is just. It's hard for me to get fully on board with, but I wish there was something more concrete we could hang our hats on. I don't know. Christos, what do you think? I just think it's cool that every UFO incident in another country, they say, oh, this country is Roswell. So it's got to be either the first or the most popular. Oh, it just put it on. On the map in a way where it's like, no, no, no, this is the one. This is like, we got something. It just create the minds, I think, of the American public, but I don't know. What do you guys think? Do you feel like Roswell was a true craft retrieval that was completely covered up? Do you think it was this military operation that, you know, they tried to change the story on? And if so, why did they do it? I would love to know your thoughts. If there's anything I missed, please don't hesitate to let me know. Again, I'm a, I'm a novice in the world of ufology, but please drop a comment, let me know what you think. If there's anything I got wrong, please let me know. The truth never hurt anybody. And I am only interested in trying to get to the bottom of everything that's ever happened. So please correct me on the record. YouTube, Spotify, I read all the comments, so I appreciate any type of. Any addendums to the episode. Furthermore, you can check out Camp R D. That's where we got all the merch. All right. We got some of the sickest designs. There's actually a bunch of stuff that I'm buying for myself because I don't even even gotten all the samples yet because they're awesome. And you can also see me live Mark gag on live. Check me out on the road. One hour of stand up comedy. Every city that I go to. It's an awesome time and I would love to shake your hand afterwards. I'd take some time to chill after the show and to say what's up to everyone. So please come say what's up. Also, if you like history content, great news, we have history camp. That's where I deep dive on all the stuff that's ever happened. And if you like religious content, even better news, we have religion camp where we do deep dives on all the religious topics that anyone ever believed. Yeah, anything that anyone believes, we try to break it all down. I want to know what. But basically, the way the channels work, History camp is everything that's ever happened. Religion Camp is where we're going. And then Camp Gagnon. That's what's going on right now. So please subscribe to all of them. Check them out if that's your vibe. But if not, you can just chill with us here at Camp Gagnon. You're welcome in my tent anytime and I appreciate you guys so much. I'll see you next time.
