Why ALIEN DISCLOSURE Is Happening Now & The Truth About Varginha w/ James Fox

Summary

Camp Gagnon Podcast: “Why ALIEN DISCLOSURE Is Happening Now & The Truth About Varginha”

Host: Mark Gagnon
Guest: James Fox (UFO documentary filmmaker)
Date: December 9, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this deep-dive conversation, host Mark Gagnon welcomes renowned UFO documentarian James Fox to discuss the current state of alien disclosure, focusing on the groundbreaking Varginha incident in Brazil—often dubbed the "Roswell of Brazil." Fox shares jaw-dropping accounts, including never-before-heard testimony of direct communication with a captured alien, insider perspectives from military and intelligence circles, and offers his personal journey and methodology for separating signal from noise in the UFO phenomenon. The discussion weaves between historic cases, the mechanics and politics of disclosure, and the challenges of public perception, skepticism, and secrecy.

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Key Topics & Insights

1. The Varginha Incident – "Roswell of Brazil"

[03:03 – 10:51]

• James Fox’s Reluctant Investigation:
  Initially dismissed as “impossible,” Fox only investigated Varginha after persistent recommendations from respected colleagues and researchers.

  “There’s no way a UFO can crash and live aliens be walking around the town and the whole world not know about it.”
  — James Fox [05:15]

• Turning Point:
  Encouraged by Stanton Friedman (nuclear physicist and Roswell researcher) to take the case seriously, Fox found mounting local testimony and direct (but off-the-record) admissions from high-ranking Brazilian military officials.

  “He looks up at us and he goes, ‘It happened.’ Click.”
  — Fox recalling Brazilian Air Force General Pereira [10:32]

• Secrecy and Safety:
  The general’s candid admission off-camera underscored the risks and pressure involved in acknowledging such incidents.

• National Security Dilemma:
  High military officials admitted the threat to public confidence—and thus government stability—presented by revealing they can’t control such phenomena.

  “You can’t have objects of unknown origin whizzing around with impunity... You think we’re going to disclose that nature of information? Hell, no.”
  — Fox paraphrasing General [11:25]

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2. Secrecy, Disclosure, and Government Motives

[12:04 – 22:27]

• Balancing Openness and Security:
  Governments are reluctant to share what they “don’t know” as it presents vulnerability both to their own population and to global rivals.

  • If “crash retrieval” and alien technology exist, the military wants to stay ahead of adversaries—disclosure would risk technological leakage (to China/Russia).

• Media and Skepticism:
  Even with pilots, officials, and congressional hearings testifying, the lack of shared “smoking gun” evidence breeds skepticism or suspicions of “psyops” within the UAP community itself.

  “We might confess that we’re not alone, but how do they prove that without coughing up the goods?”
  — James Fox [17:02]

• The Disclosure Challenge:
  As Fox and Gagnon note, disclosure without proof leads to deeper divides between belief, skepticism, and conspiracy.

  “There’s a whole contingent pushing for disclosure, but then once it happens, it’s actually not real.”
  — Mark Gagnon [21:29]

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3. Separating Truth from Noise: Fox’s Investigative Approach

[23:11 – 26:26]

• Evaluating Evidence:
  Fox places greatest weight on:

  • Multi-witness events,
  • Official radar, audio, and physical data
  • Consistency between witnesses and physical evidence

• Best-Evidence Cases:

  • JAL 1628 (1986): Radar, audio, pilot accounts—all nearly suppressed by the CIA.

  • Calvine, Scotland (1990):

    • “One of the best photographs ever” of a diamond-shaped craft and a military jet, buried for decades.
    • Witnesses vanished after men in black visited—another common pattern worldwide.
    • The Men in Black phenomenon (“men in dark suits”) recurs globally, and usually around compelling evidence.

    “If I had a dime for every time I heard those stories prior to me reporting on them, I’d be a gazillionaire.”
    — James Fox [31:58]

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4. Human Response, Public Perception & Mass Sightings

[32:32 – 36:38]

• Phoenix Lights (1997):

  • Massive, silent boomerang craft seen by thousands, including then-Governor Symington and pilots.

  • Many witnesses simply "went back to having tea"—illustrating the psychological shock and suppression of anomalous events.

    “Sometimes it’s just too much to process.”
    — James Fox [35:17]

• Congressional Hearings and Whistleblowers:
  Recent years have seen more high-profile testimonies (e.g., David Grusch), but frustration remains about lack of concrete, public details.

  “Not one, not two, not three, multiple [alleging crash retrievals]... Is this just ontological shock?”
  — James Fox [37:24]

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5. Telepathic Communication & The Nature of Contact

[39:41 – 46:07]

• Witnesses Describe Calm and (Sometimes) Telepathic Communication:
  Fox recounts pilots and other witnesses’ accounts of feeling overwhelming calm—or direct “messages” (e.g., “We mean you no harm”).

  “That was the first time I really got that level of communication with someone I really believed.”
  — James Fox [40:54]

• The Zimbabwe (Rua) School Landing (1994):

  • Over 60 children and teachers witnessed landed craft and beings who telepathically warned them about environmental destruction.
  • Consistency and “raw honesty” of the young witnesses struck Fox as remarkable.

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6. Patterns in Sightings & Contact Incidents

[50:01 – 56:39]

• Recurring Themes Across Incidents:

  • Shutdowns of nuclear weapons (Malstrom, Bentwaters, etc.)

  • Environmental messages from entities (Zimbabwe, China, etc.)

  • School landings—children are often witnesses

    “Like taking matches out of the hands of a baby. Maybe you guys shouldn’t be playing around with these things.”
    — Launch control officer, via Fox [50:51]

• Men in Black / Official Pressure:

  • Witnesses, teachers, and physicians are often threatened into silence—sometimes by foreigners, sometimes by locals with foreign (often American) handlers.

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7. Cultural, Political, and Media Impacts

[58:11 – 71:14]

• Hollywood and “Predictive Programming”:
  Spielberg’s Close Encounters and others drew directly from real cases, and the U.S. government has historically promoted ridicule as a way to suppress serious discussion (per the Robertson Panel).

  “We can adopt a policy of ridicule. So you make fun of those who claim to have seen them. That really stuck.”
  — James Fox [60:26]

• Memeification and Ridicule:
  Roswell tourism, alien cafes, and jokes—these can dilute seriousness and even be effective PSYOPs (as in Governor Symington’s infamous “alien press conference” to defuse local panic).

  “Truth comes out in a joke... It sort of adds levity to the situation.”
  — James Fox [66:33]

• Moments of Vindication:

  • Symington, after a decade of silence, admitted he himself saw the Phoenix Lights craft after being confronted by an aggrieved constituent and Fox.

    “I, too, saw that thing and I didn’t feel that it was of this earth…”
    — Former Gov. Symington [70:55]

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8. Personal Encounters & Methodology

[94:11 – 109:16]

• Fox’s Interviewing Technique:
  Immersive listening—closes eyes, asks for every detail, deeply processes and records the witness feeling/state.

• His Own Sighting:

  • A “breathing” yellow-orange egg-shaped light outside a bedroom window; clear, immediate sense it was “aware” of being watched.

  • Years later, his co-witness independently remembered it the same way.

    “Whatever it is, I get the feeling it knows we’re looking at it.”
    — James Fox to Lisa [98:07]

• From Skeptic to Investigator:
  Fox was not an early believer, only drawn in after learning of credible witnesses (including astronauts like Gordon Cooper).

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9. Presidents, Disclosure, and Political Reality

[113:16 – 123:38]

• Presidential Knowledge is Limited:

  • Fox “ambushed” Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford for off-the-record or secretive answers; both essentially said they tried to find out, were stonewalled.

    “Yes, but there were a lot of different answers and not the right… we weren’t happy with what we got back.”
    — Jimmy Carter [119:50]

  • President Ford initiated Congressional hearings after public outrage at "swamp gas" explanations for mass sightings.

  • Most presidents are “not read into the program”; the rationale is need-to-know, as they may only be in office a short time.

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10. The Race for Technology & Reverse Engineering

[163:12 – 166:15]

• Global Secrecy is About Tech:

  • Russia, China, and the U.S. are all thought to have retrieved craft; secrecy is driven by the race for technological advantage, not necessarily for public panic or philosophical reasons.

    “Whoever gets this stuff first is like, ‘Wow, rock and roll.’ They don’t look at it like the philosophical implications... They’re still on domination time.”
    — James Fox [164:16]

• Reverse Engineering Cases:

  • Regarding Bob Lazar: Fox believes Lazar is sincere, but some aspects of his testimony are complicated by possible disinformation or mixed signals, perhaps intentional.

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11. What Would Actual Disclosure Take?

[135:46 – 138:24]

• Fox’s Plan:
  Organize public statements and pleas from primary witnesses with direct knowledge—asking for immunity from NDAs to lay out specifics (locations, names, evidence) in open congressional hearings.

• Will Disclosure Happen?
  Fox believes “the genie is out of the bottle”—recent witness statements and documentaries (e.g., "Age of Disclosure") signal it's coming “sooner” than most expect.

  “They’re not going to put the genie back in the bottle. I don’t think so.”
  — James Fox [137:52]

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12. Core Themes and Philosophical Questions

[151:32 – End]

• We Don’t Know the Big Picture:
  Fox maintains—no one, not even insiders, actually knows the full intent or origin of UAPs; various hypotheses (extraterrestrial, interdimensional, time-travelers) remain.

  “The more I learn, the more I don’t know and the more confused I am. It’s real, they’re here. I’d put my life on it. But what their agenda is, what their origins are, I haven’t got a clue.”
  — James Fox [152:57]

• Nuclear Connection:
  Strong evidence links mass sightings and interferences to nuclear activities, from Trinity onward.

  “Guess where all the pins were? All around Trinity Site… that was sort of an organic way of [discovering the nuclear connection].”
  — James Fox [158:52]

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Notable Quotes & Standout Moments

• On the Difficulty of Disclosure:

  “If I got my hands on the definitive piece of footage, I’d have something to worry about. No question.”
  — James Fox [42:54 and 142:20]

• On Media & Ridicule:

  “You reveal what you know, you have to reveal all the things you don’t know.”
  — General Pereira, via Fox [11:55]

• On His Own Sighting:

  “Whatever it is, I get the feeling it knows we’re looking at it.”
  — James Fox [98:07]

• On What Lies Ahead:

  “We’re running a marathon. Be patient.”
  — James Fox [137:38]

• On the Nature of Contact:

  “If they were here to do us harm, we would have known it.”
  — James Fox [151:39]

• On the Ultimate Mystery:

  “I think anybody saying they know what’s going on doesn’t know what’s going on.”
  — James Fox [153:15]

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Suggested Viewing / Next Steps

• James Fox’s new film:
  “Moment of Contact: New Revelations of Alien Encounters”
  (December 22, 2025 – Amazon, Apple, Google Play)

• Prior docs:
  “The Phenomenon”, “The Program” (free on YouTube, as referenced)

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• Varginha Incident Backstory: [03:03 – 10:51]
• Military Secrecy and National Security: [11:12 – 13:43]
• Disclosure Complexities: [15:13 – 17:37]
• Calvine Photographic Evidence & Men in Black: [25:41 – 32:12]
• Phoenix Lights & Human Reaction: [32:48 – 36:38]
• Zimbabwe School Landing: [42:59 – 49:45]
• Reverse Engineering & Rival Nations: [163:12 – 164:20]
• Presidential Encounters & Interviews: [113:56 – 123:38]
• James Fox’s Own Encounter: [96:57 – 101:51]
• Disclosure Plan & Probable Timeline: [135:52 – 138:24]

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Final Thoughts

James Fox brings decades of investigative rigor, open-minded skepticism, and direct access to elevated witnesses and evidence in the UFO field. The current climate, as outlined in this episode, is the closest we’ve ever been to open, public governmental acknowledgment of non-human intelligence and technology. Fox’s upcoming documentary promises potential firsthand testimony of “direct communication with a captured alien.” Regardless of listeners’ positions—skeptical or open—this conversation stands as a major moment in the discourse on UFOs, government secrecy, and what might come next.

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For more, follow James Fox on X (@JamesCFox) and see “Moment of Contact: New Revelations of Alien Encounters” on December 22, 2025.

Transcript

[A]

First time in history of the phenomenon that we have firsthand eyewitness testimony of direct communication with a captured alien in custody.

[B]

This is James Fox and he is the UFO documentarian. This is the man behind some of the most groundbreaking UFO films ever made. And he is here to pull back the curtain on cases that shake even seasoned investigators. If you are a UFO skeptic, I'm telling you, this is the episode for you from 1996, the Virginia incident, when the entire town saw a craft crash and military officials were literally talking to each other like, yo, there might be aliens out here. 2. Never before heard audio from witnesses, surgeons and insiders who claimed that they actually handled the beings themselves.

[A]

If I got my hands on the definitive piece of footage, I'd have something to worry about. No question.

[B]

When you say the definitive piece of footage.

[A]

Footage of a captured alien.

[B]

And that exists.

[A]

Oh, no question.

[B]

And you've spoken to people that have seen it?

[A]

Yes, multiple people.

[B]

We will explore James's very own UFO encounter, his method for separating truth from noise, and why high level figures from Jimmy Carter to President Gerald Ford privately admitted he might be on something. We're talking about Spielberg cameos, astronauts hinting at hidden contact, Bob Lazar's lingering questions, nuclear era sightings and what disclosure might actually look like and when it might happen. James Fox has spent decades getting the stories that nobody else can. He's probably talked to more UFO experiencers than anyone on earth and today he's sharing all of them with us. So sit back, relax, and welcome to Camp.

James Fox. How are you?

[A]

Good. Thanks for having me on.

[B]

Thank you so much for joining me in my, in my tent.

[A]

I like it. Yeah, this is a warm tent. Thank you.

[B]

I appreciate it. Deep, deep in the.

[A]

As far as tents go.

[B]

Yeah. In the Adirondacks, we're far, far away from civilization. Not in Brooklyn at all. No, no, no, we are. We are far.

[A]

This is literally going to be intense.

[B]

Exactly, exactly. I, I'm a really big fan. I've been tracking you for a while and I've spoken to many people that have spoken about you and as I said before, they're all, they're all. Everyone speaks very highly of you and your work. I think has done that.

[A]

Cuz I owe him a lot of money.

[B]

That'll do it. Yeah, yeah, Give it enough time, wait.

[A]

Till they get paid.

[B]

Yeah, the tune will change a little. But no, I'm just, I'm a really big fan and I think the way that you tell stories around this topic is probably the most Effective, I think, in sort of like the whole UAP disclosure community. Just the way that you sort of break down information and sort of, you know, kind of paint the narrative, I think is really easy for laypeople, you know, like myself, that are not, you know, reading secret leaked memos and stuff just to be able to get up to speed on everything. And you've done a bunch of documentaries that have kind of highlighted different aspects of, I guess, of the phenomena. And the one that's coming out, when is it coming out?

[A]

December 22nd.

[B]

Amazing. This is about kind of a follow up to this incident in Brazil.

[A]

Yes, they call it the Roswell of Brazil.

[B]

The Roswell of Brazil. This is one of the more.

I don't know, it's almost.

[A]

It's.

[B]

It's very interesting and there's so much information around it, but it feels more real in a sense. Like the amount of eyewitness testimony and the way people describe the incident feels like, I don't know, sometimes you hear about stuff in America and it's like, okay, there's one memo or there's like a line. But this is a whole community that basically was involved in this event. And you're going to have to help me with the pronunciation. The Virginia incident. Can you explain more or less what this is and how this came across your radar and what made you interested in it in the first place?

[A]

Absolutely. So let's start off by saying, I don't expect your audience to believe anything I'm about to tell you, because if I were you, I wouldn't.

[B]

Fair.

[A]

Okay. Having said that, I was making my second UFO documentary in the late 90s. It ended up being called out of the Blue. I never have a title for my films. When I start, the title comes to you at some point, you'll know when it's like the right thing. And what I do at the beginning of every film project, I don't do like big intricate proposals or like, you know, whole multi pages. I do broad strokes. It's like, okay, usually on a chalkboard, it's like, all right, let's look at this case. Let's check out the Bentwaters case, Phoenix Lights, 1997. And kind of map it out that way. And then we just target those particular cases and then we stitch it together at the end and we're going through the various ideas. And I was working with this guy who's, who's British. He was a former BBC correspondent. His name was Tim Coleman. A lot of respect, super intelligent, diligent researcher. And he's like, oh, mate, I think we should do this case in Brazil. These fucking live aliens walking around and da, da, da. And I thought to myself, oh my God, this guy's crazy. I'm going to. I think I picked the wrong partner. I really did. And not only did I not look into it, when I was making my second UFO documentary, I refused to even read one thing about it.

[B]

Why?

[A]

Because I was like, this is impossible. It's impossible. There's no way a fucking UFO can crash and live aliens be walking around the town and the whole world not know about it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

In my opinion. So I'm not going to waste one second on garbage. Like, that's literally what my position was. And fast forward probably. And I refused to look into it. And I said, tim, that's the worst idea ever. I'm not touching that thing with a 50 foot cattle prod. Forget it. And he was really pissed off at me at the time. Like, he took it a little personally. So fast forward, like probably at least 10 years, I would say, and I'm going to Brazil. I got invited to Brazil on a film I did. I know what I saw. It was a two hour History Channel special. And a buddy of mine, Jeff Sagansky, was very high up in the entertainment industry. He's been very instrumental behind the scenes of, like, helping me promote my work, but without his face on it, like very quietly behind me. And there's reasons for that. But he goes, oh, James, you're going to Brazil. Oh my God, you gotta look into the Virginia case. And I was like, oh, my God, not this case again. This again. I was like. But I had a lot of respect for him and he did a lot of amazing stuff for me behind the scenes. So I lied to him and I said, jeff, yeah, yeah, when I get there, I'll look into it for you and I'll report back. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah. Click. Yeah. I'm not gonna waste one second on that case. Then I arrive in Brazil and I just happened to be in this place called Peru Ibi, which is like, apparently there's like this island right off the coast that you can see it, and there's like this really poisonous snake that its venom is worth a lot of money, but they'll like, poachers will go. And it's off. It's not allowed. And no one's allowed on that island, but you can see it from the shore. And I'm sitting there and Stanton Friedman, the nuclear physicist, the guy that pretty much put Roswell on the map, along with a couple of other people talking with Stanton. And we're commenting on this, like, poisonous snake. And some of the locals were like, yeah, some poachers go out there, and then the snakes drop out of the trees, and there's a bunch of dead poachers. And we're just like, oh, my God. And then it was like, someone's like, well, you know, there was a guy, a military officer who allegedly handled the alien here in Virginia, who also died of some sort of bacterial thing. And I was like, oh, my God, Here was this case again, right? And Stanton. And I was like, come on, Stanton. Stanton's like, you don't know about this case. And I was like, well, yeah, I know about it, but come on. Like that. And he goes, not so fast. James and I had a lot of respect as a nuclear physicist. He's really smart researcher. He just so happened to be in the area when it happened in Brazil. And he met a bunch of the witnesses at the time. And he goes, don't dismiss this case. You should look into it. And that was a turning point for me. It's like, okay, I know I'm gonna debunk it. I know it's gonna turn out to be a bunch of hogwash, But I'll look into it. Finally, after 12, whatever it was, I said, okay, I'll look into it.

[B]

Stanton just happened to be there.

[A]

He was invited as well. He was invited as well to this event.

[B]

I see.

[A]

Yeah. And so, yeah, sorry, I meant to mention that. Yeah. We're as panelists on this one.

[B]

I see. But he was there during Virginia.

[A]

He was in the area either, like, months after or like. But he met a bunch of the witnesses. Like, he was there. And he's like, oh, yeah. He goes, I think this is gonna be the Roswell of Brazil is like, a lot. Because so many people saw something like military activity, the creatures, the UFO in distress. Like, I mean, it was like a lot of people had a little piece of the puzzle. Or like, oh, my cousin was involved, or my mom saw this, Or I had people working at the hospital that night. Like, holy shit, something went down. So I started looking into it. And the more I looked into it, I was like, shit, this might have happened, right? And so probably two or three years into it, I got an interview with this military general, Brazilian military general. I was with my buddy Marco Leal, who's French. He's like. We're like, part. And we get this interview with Jose Carlos Pereira, and he's a Brazilian general, Air Force general. And he's like, before the interview, he's like, hey, you know, we could talk about this. We could talk about Caloris. We could talk about 1986 UFOs in Brazil. You mentioned Virginia. And this interview's done, and I'm walking out of here. It's like, what the what?

So I was like, that's weird. Why would he do that? So we do the interview, and in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, when the cameras stop, I'm going to really pin this guy down, you know? And so we do the interview, and he talks about all the things he's going to talk about. And at the end, the cameras shut down, and Marco was right there with me. And I was like. Looked him in the eyes, and I said, come on, please, General, please. What's going on? Like, why don't you want to talk about this case? Like, did it, you know, did it happen? He's getting his affairs together. Cause he's got a driver waiting for him. Excuse me. And he's like. Gets his briefcase, and he's getting his stuff together, and he's clearly getting prepared to leave. And we're following him back. And I often describe it as like, I was almost licking the dirt off his boots. Like, I was begging him just for something. And I said, I swear on my life, there are no cameras rolling. There's no audio rolling. This is between the three of us. Me, Marco, and you. Tell me, please, about Virginia, please. He gets in the car, sits down, the engine's running, door's open. Marco and I are standing right there, and he looks up at us and he goes, it happened. Click. Marco and I looked at each other like.

Like to have that level of confirmation. And why would he make that up? Yeah, so that. That doesn't go in a movie, right? Cause that's irrelevant. Everyone's saying, well, it's third party, of course. But for me and for Marco, that was like, okay, let's rock. Yeah, let's go.

[B]

You know, you got military confirmation. You got nuclear physicists that are like, yeah.

[A]

They're like, look into it.

[B]

Close friends being like, check it out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So all of this is culminating to you being like, okay, yeah, I'm really.

[A]

Starting to go, shit.

[B]

And you're telling this general. You're like, I'll never tell anyone. I'm not going to go on a podcast to share this information.

[A]

He died. He died. He died.

[B]

So now we share it.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, he died. Bless his heart.

[B]

Right? And his demeanor during this interview was pretty.

[A]

Oh, he was like, UFOs are real. Like, this event happened and this event happened, and da, da, da. And the reason why we can't say is because, you know, you can't have objects of unknown origin whizzing around with impunity.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And for us to come forward and acknowledge that, it's gonna scare the shit out of people. Right? Like. And to be able to say, like, yeah, they're here, but we don't know origins and intent. You know what I mean? And they fly rings around our fastest jets because no governing body's gonna want to report that to the citizens. Are you kidding me? You guys pay us to protect you. And. And we can't. Shall they turn to be hostile. We have no visible means of defense against them. You think we're going to disclose that nature of information? Guess what he said to me? He goes, hell, no. No, we don't do that.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

Why would you do that? How are we going to benefit by doing that?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because you reveal what you know. And in doing so, you have to reveal all things that you don't know.

[B]

Yeah. You basically just kind of admit, you know, like, hey, we are not able to.

[A]

We're not in control.

[B]

We're not in control. Yeah. And that's a big issue for government.

[A]

Very big issue. Yeah.

[B]

You have rebellion and. Yeah, that's gonna. Just. In terms of statecraft. That is a terrible admission.

[A]

And it makes perfectly good sense. Cause I remember one time I used to always say. And I still do in some respects. Cause I believe it, but I understand a little more. I hate to say it, but there are certain national security issues regarding this topic that does merit some levels of secrecy. And I can give you examples of that. But I had this general I was interviewing one time, and I was like, God, it would be really unifying. And the world brings people together, and there's this outside, you know, and he's just like, chuckling to himself, like, you're so naive, kid. Like, you don't know what you're talking about. Let me break it down for you. And then he kind of explained it to me, and I was like, shit, I never looked at it that way before.

[B]

Yeah, I can kind of understand both sides in a way.

[A]

And I don't agree with it, but I understand it. And especially if you start talking about crash retrievals, just imagine whether you believe it or you don't believe it, just imagine for a moment it is true that we have this technology. Well, anyone who will tell you the technology observed in the sky from these Things exhibit something that's like, so far beyond anything that we have or have had or going to have. Like.

They can hover, they can accelerate out of sight in the blink of an eye. Right angle turns at high speed. Like, they go through the water. They go. No wings, no air disturbance, no visible propulsion. How do these things fly?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Could you put a bomb on that if you could harness that technology? Well, that's how they think. Militarize this technology. And if we have it, we want to make sure we get. We figure it out before the Chinese are the Russians.

[B]

Right, right. I can understand. I can understand the. The national security concern. Right. Like war. War of the Worlds, this, you know, radio broadcast that went off in, like, this, like the 50s, I think, 30s, 38. Oh, even earlier.

[A]

Yeah. So this is basically Orson Welles. Hella funny. Yeah. And they were jumping out of their windows.

[B]

This is a great example.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You're doing this, you know, like, what is it? Like a radio soap opera kind of thing. And it's a fictionalized alien invasion, but they only disclose that it was fictional at the very beginning. So people are tuning in and they missed it five minutes in.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And it's like, okay, we have our ground reporter, and he's witnessing these lights in the sky, and this craft is landing in Times Square. And, like, it's this whole thing and people are in panic. Rightly so.

[A]

Totally. Oh, yeah. Brilliantly done. I mean, it was really, really compelling.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, if you listen to it now, like, a lot of thought went into that. I mean, it sounded real and the.

[B]

Reaction was equally as real. And I could understand that if this stuff was disclosed to a population, people would be really freaked out. So I understand this push for disclosure, but like, any type of, you know, classified, you know, government document, I don't know, from. From a state level, you have to think, like, does the public benefit from knowing all of this? Right. Like the JFK files or the Epstein files or whatever else it is. It's like, look, every empire does things that are, you know, morally questionable. Do you guys really want to know everything? Do you really want to know what kind of backdoor deal we're doing with some dictator in order to get oil rights or something like that. It's like, basically they're saying, it's better if you don't know. And of course I understand the disagreement.

[A]

On this, but Jacques Vallee said that something really interesting to me years ago because I was like. Because I'm really curious by nature. I'm just a curious person. I want to get to the bottom of things, right? When I. Tenacious. I mean, a lot of. I have a lot of deficiencies, but curiosity is not one of them. I just really want to know. And I was like, jacques, like, why the secrecy? Like, you know, and he goes.

James, think of it this way. Think about it like it's more of a question. No less of a question of what we know is more of a question of what we don't know. And it really, like, struck a chord with me. It's like, oh, we can admit what we know, but that's gonna open up all these other. Could you imagine, like, if they stood up and said what they know, and then all of a sudden there's gonna be a hundred million questions flooding in from around the world. Because the American government, sure, we. America represents a very small percentage of the world population, but the implications are global. So it's like. It affects every religion, every. I mean, ontological shock, like, to the max. And then America's gonna start making statements that we have real. We're not alone. Well, you better cough up some evidence, right? So what are they going to do? Are they going to give us the technology? Are they going to show us the bodies? How are they going to do it? Are they going to say, well, here we're going to give you some photographs of some recovered craft? Or then they're going to say, well, that's AI. We don't believe that. We need to see it. And then it's like, implications are global. So do we bring a whole panel of international scientists that come examine it in a lab and confirm, yeah, I saw it, and it's real and Americans do have it. Or do they bring out a body? How do they do it, and how do they do it without having to cough up the goods? Right, because they're not gonna share that technology with China or Russia.

[B]

Of course.

[A]

That's just not gonna happen. And I always remember talking to military folks, intel folks. They're like, james, it's never gonna happen. We might confess that we're not alone, but then how do they prove that without coughing up the goods? It's a really complicated situation. It's way more complex than I ever imagined. You can't just get the president of. Which half the country hates, right? No matter who it is. And so he's gonna get up and say, hey, my fellow Americans, it has been brought to my attention that, you know, we're not alone. Whatever, right? However he says it, all right, well, where's the proof?

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

And then there's also like an inverse element of the disclosure argument where it's like, if this is brought up without any sort of definitive proof because we don't want to reveal all the tech et, you're going to have a contingent of the, you know, UAP community, the disclosure community, saying, oh, well, this is a psyop.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

Like, aliens are actually fake. This is not real at all. And this is a, you know, a plan for a one world government, which I've seen people even like, kind of flirting with. Now they're like, oh, they're going to do disclosure, but it's going to be a fake disclosure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you're like, all right, so there's a whole contingent of the community, like, pushing for disclosure, but then once it happens, it's actually not real.

[A]

Well, so, you know, I see this online all the time and I see people accusing, like Lou Elizondo or Christopher Melon, who I know these both very well and go to their homes, meet their wives, like, you know, hang out. And I sit there and I'm like, okay, so how do I know this isn't a psyop? Because everything that they're saying aligns with my 30 plus years in the field. Like, I've been around the world, China and Russia and Australia, Africa, South America, you're all over investigating the phenomenon. Every single word they say aligns exactly with my research in the field, right? So I'm like, okay, well, they're not saying anything that's ringing any alarm bells for me. No red flags that I can see. This is exactly if I was gonna disclose and I was in their position. In fact, some of it's even greater detail and I'm learning from it. So that's why I support that movement. Because.

What are they saying? That's not true. I mean, they use the threat aspect, but the only reason why they do that is because that gets the attention of Congress. Because if you have the Tic Tac, for instance, right? Like if that had a Russian flag on it, it would be all hands on deck, right? It doesn't have any identifying markings on it, but if it did, but you get the attention of Congress, like, hey, we're in these flight range areas, or maybe over super secret military installations housing nuclear weapons, and you've got these unknowns coming and going at their will and we can't do anything to stop it. That is a national security. What the. What is it? Well, it's not displaying any hostility now, but is it. Are we under surveillance? Like, what. Who is this? Yeah, and we need to know those things.

[B]

I'm curious, how do you approach this from. Because I, at least in speaking with you and seeing some of the docs, like, I feel a resonance where you kind of approach things with like a healthy skepticism but a vigorous curiosity, which is sort of how I feel, I think. And I don't want to sort of. I don't want to, you know, misaligned the way that you actually feel. But I look at different pieces of information and evidence with different levels of scrutiny. So like government docs, I find interesting and more compelling. I find personal testimony very emotionally moving, but difficult to verify because it's anecdotal. And then there's like the whistleblower contingent that is kind of both. So I'm curious, when you're looking at the plethora of, you know, evidence and different pieces of information, how do you try to wrap your head around it? And what do you find to be the most compelling evidence for, you know, the existence of these sort of anomalous objects?

[A]

So I mean, what I know, obviously what's in, what's what we have access to among civilians, right? Stuff that's leaked out, stuff that's slipped between the cracks. And believe me, some stuff has, but the vast majority has not. It's unbelievable. The Better the evidence, the more compelling the data, the less likely the public's ever going to see it. And that's just around the world.

We have radar confirmation, right? This that's come out, I'll give. Let me, let me pick a case. I'm gonna pick this one case. It was 1986 over Alaska JAL flight. There were two pilots and they had a very dramatic encounter with a colossal sized ufo. I mean, it was just huge. And there was an FAA official, John Callahan. He had kept all the radar data. The CIA tried to shut it all down. They had a meeting and they confiscated everything. But he's like, I kept copies. And he kept copies of everything. The voice recordings or the, during the encounter, the radar, the radar, ground radar, the planes radar. Like he had it all. That's pretty compelling data, right? I mean, you can just say, oh, that's all anecdotal. No, it's not actually. You've got two witnesses, you've got all the radar data, you've got the sound recordings, like, you know, missing a photograph in that particular case, but very compelling data. So you've got incredible witnesses, incredible witnesses that are pilots. It's a very long duration of the sighting. The government tries to squash the whole thing. And so that's one. Then we've got photographic evidence. I mean, I'll give one in particular that we could talk about right now if you wanted. I think it's one of the best photographs ever. And it was buried for over almost, I mean, 30 years.

[B]

Is this Nick Pope?

[A]

Yeah. Well, this is the Calvine 1990 UFO. And I had heard about that almost 20 years ago, probably was 20 years ago. And. Cause I was like, I pulled Nick Pope aside and I've been interviewing Nick Pope since he was still at the MOD in the late 90s. So Nick and I go way back. So I pulled Nick aside and like, Nick, what's the coolest case you ever investigated? You know? And he'd be like, there's this one case in Scotland and six photographs and a military jet and da, da, da, Broad daylight, points of reference to witnesses. I'm like, holy, where's that photograph? He goes, oh, we made a big poster of it and we sat on the wall at model and they're sitting there telling us, yeah, there it is. Yeah. And what makes this photograph so extraordinary is it's broad daylight, right? You got two witnesses. The MOD went at great lengths and the Americans were involved as well. They squashed this story. And the only reason why we have this photograph today is because there was a guy named Craig Lindsey. And the guy responsible for putting it on is in my film, the Program. But Craig Lindsay was an RAF press officer. And he gets a call from the local newspaper and they're like, hey, what do you make of this? This UFO photograph or whatever that's making the round. Whatever. He's like, what? I don't, I don't know what you're talking about. And so the local newspaper, like, oh, well, you haven't seen it. It's like, no, I haven't. Why would I have seen it? No, I haven't seen it. So they make a print, big one, eight by 10 or whatever, and they send it to Craig Lindsay. He's like, holy shit. Like, this isn't any normal UFO photograph I've ever seen. Normally it's a little blurry. This is like broad daylight, points of reference, military jet going around. And according to Greg Lindsay, there were six shots. And David Clark, if he's listening out there, thanks to him and all of his diligent hard work, this leaked out. But so Craig Lindsay gets like a call to investigate. He goes and meets with the witnesses. He talks with them and they tell him, like, you know, this thing didn't make any noise. We were up, we were out hiking. It was. They were actually terrified. It was like this diamond shaped object, right? Hovering silently right over their heads, like really close. And they were. They didn't know what the hell they were looking at. These two witnesses. And then a military jet flies in and circles it, goes all the way around it. And they at that point got enough courage and they took six shots. And so every shot, according to Craig Lindsay, and he's seen all six of them, is the jet, which is a Harrier jump jet, was in a different position going around it. So I'll tell you, whoever was flying that, if you're listening, come forward, please. Whoever's flying that probably got some pretty good data. Yeah. You know, at a good visual. Can you imagine? Right. And so these two guys took their story to the local paper, Scotland Daily Record, I believe it was, and they were gonna go worldwide with it. And the MoD stepped in. Craig Lindsey started doing some preliminary investigations and then they just shut it down. The two witnesses vanished forever. To this day, nobody knows where they are. The prints were confiscated. Yeah.

[B]

The negatives of their photographs were gone.

[A]

All gone. Everything's gone. Okay. And so, so.

Craig Lindsay, who the local newspaper had sent him that one print and he kept it all the way through his retirement. And then David Clark, who's investigating the case. He said there was a redacted document that came out. It said such and such, blank, crossed out, redacted at RAF, you know, Scotland in 1990. RAF Scotland. He just goes, oh, that's Craig Lindsay. So he contacts Craig Lindsay. Long story short, I don't know, it was one year or two years or however much time went by, Craig finds the photograph and decides they're going to go public with it. And that is why that picture. Just give you an example. Like, this is the one. They did everything in their power to shut it down. Richard Greaves was friends with the two photographers that took it. And he just came forward recently. He's in my film, the Program. And because we didn't know, like, where did they go, why they wanted to go public? And all of a sudden, they're gone. Like, that doesn't make any sense. What happened, you know? So Richard Grieve. Hopefully I pronounced his name correctly one time. He's like, mate, you're not. You're not pronouncing my name right. Sorry. I think he's like, it's Greave, not Greaves. Greave.

[B]

We're Americans, all right? We do our best.

[A]

Why is that? Ghost. That's what he said. So he said, they're out on a cigarette break. A couple days after. After this whole thing went down, they're out on a cigarette break at the restaurant they worked at, the hotel in Scotland, not far from. From Calvine, I don't know, 10 or 15 minutes away. And this car rolls up, and two shadowy figures get out of the car. And he said, the guy, driver stays in the car, and he was smoking a cigarette with the windows rolled up. And these two shadowy characters come out, and it's pissing rain, and. And they were on their cigarette break, and they're all outside having a cigarette break. And he said, cigarette breaks over. Go. You know, you go back inside and kept the two witnesses out there, and they're like. And they. He said he went inside and he was looking out in the pissing rain, these two men in suits talking to the two witnesses. He said they came inside. He goes, they were white as a fucking ghost. He's like, I don't know what they said to them, but basically that was it. They started drinking heavily. They were sleeping in their cars at work. And then they both vanished, never to be seen or heard from to this day ever again. Wow. Yeah. And that's the Men in Black. And I say the Men in Black because, you know, it's got a lot of baggage. The MIB's got a lot of baggage. But if I had a dime for every time I've heard those stories prior to me reporting on them, I'd be a gazillionaire. But I was always like, you know, this man, especially when the movie came out. You know, I call them men in dark suits. They show up around the world every time. They're always American. Mostly they're intimidating looking. What organization are they with? Are they with osi? I've been trying to find that out recently. I don't know. But they will show up no matter where it is, particularly if there's good evidence.

[B]

Really?

[A]

They shut this one down, that leaked out. Can you imagine how much data that we actually have? This one's. They did everything in their power to keep this photograph from coming out.

[B]

Now, the gentleman that leaked it, you.

[A]

Said his name was Craig Lindsey, RAF press officer.

[B]

Was there ever.

[A]

Exactly. David Clark actually got him to leak it.

[B]

Was there ever any recourse for these two gentlemen that.

[A]

No, they went pretty public and it was 30 years later, so. But he was concerned. For sure, he was concerned. And to this day, Nick Pope, there's certain things he can say and certain things he can't say.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But you read between the lines of what he is saying. He's like, we shut this down. We shut it down.

[B]

Now why does this not move people? Like, you hear about this story there seems like there's, you know, at least corollary evidence with what's happening. And then a photograph leaks many years later, but still like, why is this not front page news? Why are people immediately not like, well there's this.

[A]

That's an interesting point. And I'm going to reference one one time when I was interviewing some witnesses for the Phoenix Lights case. I don't know if your audience is familiar, but March 13, 1997, there was a massive UFO flyover. There were multiple UFOs, orb shaped UFOs, mass boomerang shaped UFO was roughly two miles across. I know this because I interviewed a lot of the witness, including the Governor Fife Symington at the time. And I went for 10 years investigating that case. Back and forth, back and forth. New witnesses coming forward constantly. I was like, man, this is a crazy. We had witnesses that were like out on the front lawns, lying on their backs watching this boomerang shaped UFO that was silent, it didn't have any air disturbance. They said had I not looked up, I wouldn't even have known it was there. They're looking at compartments and as it hovered, we thought it was gonna land. I mean, it was just so big. It took several minutes to pass over as we lay under, you know. So I talked to the governor, Fife Simonton. He saw it when he was governor.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah. And he goes, man, that thing is not from this earth. I said, he goes, I'm an Air Force. You know, I was. I'm a pilot in the Air Force. He goes. I said, well, how do you know this thing was not from here? The governor goes, the size of the damn thing, like it was huge. You could land an airplane on it. So let me tell you. So I'm interviewing five or six hospice workers that were out having tea under the night sky in March 13, 1997. And they said, we're just sitting outside having tea, discussing our patients. And that thing flies over the top of them, right? And they sit in the garden. They looked up and they watched it. Like, they said it took a couple minutes and it just floated. They said it looked like a little city, little compartment, so you could see the whole thing. And it floated. And.

I said, did you guys think about grabbing a camera, calling 911, getting in your car, chasing after it, like. And they went, no.

You didn't? No. What did you do? Well, we just went back to having tea. What? I couldn't wrap my mind around that. But then I realized sometimes it's just too much to process. Like, did we really see that? Did we not see that? Can we just treat that like a non event, like paralysis? Like, almost like.

Oh, you know, and then right back to what they're doing. And that was a kind of a. Kind of a turning point for me because I'm sitting there going, you know, we got David Grush, that high level intelligence official who testifies under oath in 2023. And I know people are frustrated because they're like, give me the details. You can't be making these extraordinary claims and not providing the evidence. While he was providing evidence behind the scenes, certainly the icig, Thomas Manheim, was getting the details, street addresses, like, and where's the due diligence with the media? Like, okay, so you don't believe the guy. Prove him wrong, right? Get out there and do some digging. Jack diddly squat. Like, so little reporting on what could be. And you don't have to believe it. Prove him wrong. That's what you should do. Contact the former icig, talk to him about the details. What is it gonna take to get these various people that are making these extraordinary claims to come forward and give US the details needed to verify those claims because the implications are so profound. Why would we not do that?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Why would we, why would we not try to create a platform for these people to prove them wrong? Like, let's figure out what kind of executive order needs to come down to give these guys immunity so we can tell the public the truth. Like, why aren't they even trying to do that? To me, it's like a duh. Like, let's, let's get, let's, let's get. It's too important of a story not to.

[B]

What would proving them wrong look like? What would what, what, like proving someone like David Grusch wrong?

[A]

Well, you'd have, See, so you'd have to figure out how to create an environment to get those details because you're making these extraordinary claims and yet you're not giving us enough details to prove or disprove what you're saying. Right. And that's frustrating. I get it. And people are frustrated. But I remind people, you know, we've had four open congressional hearings in the last couple of years. Four open congressional. Prior to that, it was 1966. You know, like, progress is being made. People are making these allegations. Not one, not two, not three, multiple. And especially now with Age of Disclosure, Dan Farah's film, that's got 34 high level military and government officials, including Marco Rubio.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Talking about a crash retrieval program. Hello. Like, are people not paying attention or is this just ontological shock? Like, it can't be. It can't be. Therefore it isn't.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yes. I don't know.

[B]

And so, but he's like, grush is doing like closed hearings.

[A]

Oh, 100%. Yes. I talked to Burleson. I talked to Congressman Burleson the other day at the last congressional hearing that I attended. And I was like, did you finally get into a skiff with Grush? He goes, oh, yeah, yeah, we did. He goes, I walked out of that with a different look on life. Really? Yeah. That's just happened. Yeah.

[B]

That is fascinating.

[A]

So it's happening. It's happening right now. And I remember talking to people that were in the skiff. I guess I could use his name because he's in the movie. Kirk McConnell, Senate Armed Services Committee, investigating UFOs in physical capacity, looking for the crash retrieval program, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he sat in with senators. I know what senators are wearing the skiff with him. And I know some of the details that were given. And it's like street addresses. This is who has it this is where it is. This is where the labs are. Yeah. These are the names. I'm working on it myself. I'm down in the lab. Firsthanders.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Maybe 12 so far, maybe more. But people first handers. No, my cousin, bro. I'm working on it.

[B]

Looking at the actual results.

[A]

I'm working on it with my own hands. Yes.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I would think it's somewhere between 7 and 12. I didn't get an exact number on it. That's happening right now.

[B]

Now, the people that you speak with, speaking with, people that have experienced UFOs in very close capacity by their own testimony, they describe feelings. They'll say, like, I saw this craft and I felt euphoria, or I felt this overwhelming feeling of like, calm. Like they just describe sort of like this sort of like ethereal kind of experience.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm curious, in the people you spoke to, maybe in the Phoenix case or any of these other cases, do they describe a similar thing?

[A]

Okay, so that's a really good question and I'm going to give you an example of that. So I interviewed this guy named Trigg Johnson, and he was a pilot, I think Northwest Airlines at the time. And he had a really good sighting because, you know, a lot of UFO sightings, you know, you get people. I saw this blurry, you know, this is like, this is a floating city. Almost could hit it with a rock. I mean, it was right there. And I watched it for 10 minutes or whatever. Trig Johnson tells me this is extraordinary. He was with his son. I interviewed him both. And he goes, ah, one more thing. And he was like this rough and tough, pragmatic cowboy, you know, cowboy hat, like just super grounded, nuts and bolts kind of thing.

[B]

He knows what's going on.

[A]

Totally. Yeah. And he's like, ah, there's one more thing. And I was like, I was like, what? I don't want to fucking talk about it like this. And I was like, no, Trig, I want to hear it. Like, tell me. No, no, I don't know. So I finally, I said, look, man, I'm going to take you seriously. This is what I do for a living. I hear all kinds of crazy stuff. Bring it, give it to me. Oh, it said something to me. And he knew, like, the optics of that. Like, he knew because he himself would be the guy that goes, oh, you know, this is a bunch of woo woo.

[B]

Yeah, you talk to aliens.

[A]

Exactly, yeah. And he said, he said, no, no, it, it, I. He goes, all right. Said something like that. And I was like, what did it say, and he said it, we, we meet, we're here in peace, we mean you no harm. Something like that, yeah. But that was like, you know, that was the first time like I really got that level of communication with someone I really believed. And I was like, then I've heard, of course, I've heard a thousand more since then.

[B]

But was that telepathic?

[A]

Telepathic, yeah.

[B]

And did he describe feeling like calm?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. We're not here to harm you. We're not. We're here, we say we come in peace. I can't remember exactly what he said, but it was, the implication was we're not harmful, we're not here to. Yeah.

[B]

And this sighting was in his aircraft or was he on the ground?

[A]

On the ground. 1997, March 13th.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Phoenix, Arizona. That craft went from the north, started off in Nevada, but it went all the way down through the state of Arizona, all the way down to the south and then it disappeared off the Gary or the.

Barry Goldwater Mountain range. Maybe, maybe about 9, 30, 10 o', clock, something like that. But anyway, so. And everybody at the time was out to get a glimpse of the Hell Bob comment. So people were outside trying to look at the Hell Bob comments. Why it was seen by so many people because they were like out there trying to get, you know, interesting. So it was seen by thousands. It was a really good case. Mass sighting. And you ask about like what cases I like to focus on. Like I like multi witness cases. I like cases particularly in broad daylight if I can get them. But multiple people like Ruiz, Zimbabwe, 1994, there were roughly 100 schoolchildren out. 10:30 in the morning, the object comes down, it lands, you know, and I remember when I was doing reporting on that for the phenomenon, I had this guy, Larry, you know, big gold chains, like he was helping do some funding. He goes, you know, James, you mean to tell me UFO came down Atlanta in a goddamn school, you know, no, I'm not spending a dime on this case. I said, larry, just stop, please don't listen to the. Because there was a Harvard psychiatrist by the name of Dr. John Mack, and he had gone there right after it happened and he documented all these kids, did an interview. He did 66 kids. That's why they always say it's 66. It was more than 66. I went there, I talked to the teachers, there were like 100. But 66 went on camera and, and I said, no, no, no, Gary, I know, I know because I heard about that case and that one. I also Dismissed. Because when I was working on my first UFO documentary in the 90s, in the mid-90s.

I was just naive enough, young and dumb enough to think, well, I get an interview with Steven Spielberg, you know, of course, like, why not? And I had a mutual friend that I knew that knew him, Janet Yang. And.

She goes, well, you know, he actually said he's not gonna meet with you and he's not gonna go on camera. But he does want you to know there's a Laning case that happened in Africa, in Rua, Zimbabwe, at the school. You should look into it. And I thought to myself, you know, I mean, it came from Spielberg, right? But a UFO landing at a school, and the. And they. Come on, please. Like, come on. Really?

[B]

This is Alien ET like, the film?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So you're like, all right. This is.

[A]

Yeah. I was like, yeah, I know. Yeah. I'm not going to. No. And I just. 10 years. I didn't even look into it for 10 years. Like, you know, because. Can't be. Therefore, it isn't like you. My whole philosophy was, how could you have an event like that and the whole world not know about it? You can't have a landing school. That's. That's contact.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Right. So, no. And now I've learned to suspend judgment. Just, you know, suspend judgment, listen to the witnesses, and then draw my own conclusions. And from there, because every time I've dismissed a case, there are some cases that deserve. We got dismissed. But I've learned, like, oh, my gosh, I ended up doing extensive reporting on it.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

Yeah, the Zimbabwe case is so interesting because it's. How do you get 66 kids to lie?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In such specificity.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, again, children have imaginations. I get it. But, you know, kids have sort of this. Sort of like, they have a kind of a raw honesty. Right. Like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, I think about, like, remember the balloon boy case? Remember this? Like, there was a kid.

He was taken off in, like, this giant sort of, like, balloon thing, and they flew around, and then they found out that the kid was actually, you know, he wasn't. He wasn't in it at all.

[A]

Right. But they thought he was in it, and they were. Yes.

[B]

And the way they disclosed it is that they're interviewing the family on tv, and they're asking them, like, oh, like, how did this happen? You thought the kid was in it, but actually he was in. The kid basically says, like, oh, my dad told me to hide in the basement.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

So that it could be a news story. But he. The child is so honest and so innocent that his dad was basically trying to fake something. And the kid. The honesty broke through. And in this case, you would imagine one of the kids would be like, well, my teacher told me to make this up so that our school would be on TV or whatever. The rationale for making all of these children lie about this sighting. And it doesn't seem like any of them broke with what the narrative of what they saw was.

[A]

So this is interesting because with the help of Randall Nickerson, I brought all the kids, a lot of the primary witnesses together for the first time in 20 years. And we filmed for the phenomenon. And one of the witnesses, Emma, and I know there were others, she said, well, I've got to tell my husband. I said, tell your husband what? She's like about the incident. I said, you're married and you have kids and you didn't tell your husband about this?

[B]

What, you think that'd be first date, right? Yeah.

[A]

Like, yeah. Or second? Yeah. And she's like, no, I just got tired of defending it.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So it's like, you know, you're bottling that up and everything that she saw 20 years ago that's on tape is exactly the same thing now and exactly the same thing today. You know, with everything to gain. Sorry, Everything to lose and nothing to gain. Like why on earth this is like such a. You know, it's becoming a little more acceptable.

But paralleling that, one thing I will say kind of behind the scenes, is that when I talk about Close Encounters of the Third Kind, you know, people look at me sideways, you know, rightfully so, I guess.

I have to say, well, that doesn't come from me. The United States Air Force has been investigating these things, and they had Project Sign, Project Grudge, Project Blue Book. And they're the ones that categorized UFO sightings in Close Encounters of the First Kind. It's when someone sees a ufo, Close Encounter of the Second kind, they see a ufo, and somehow the UFO interacts with the environment. Maybe burn marks on the face or landing prints on the ground or radar or photograph or whatever, it interacts with the environment. And then close encounter, the third kind. And this is coming right out of the Air Force books. Okay. This was Dr. Jalen Hynek, the scientific advisor to the United States government. And they broke it down. Close, kind of. The third kind is when witnesses report entities connected to the craft. And those cases are plentiful globally. And that's coming. And you look into the. You look at the documents directly, particularly ones that get FOIAed or that were previously classified, that are now out. It's in plain sight, man. It's right there. So it's not me saying this. I mean, sure, I'm reporting on it as well, but the Air Force figured that out pretty quickly.

[B]

The Zimbabwe incident, the children spoke with beings. Correct.

[A]

Telepathic. Yeah.

[B]

Right. But they saw beings.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And they reported, correct me if I'm wrong, like environmental concerns.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That was one of the big things. Right.

[A]

Better stewards of the earth.

[B]

Right. Which is Kind of a recurring theme, it seems like with a lot of these sightings and third close encounters.

[A]

Shutting our nukes off.

[B]

Yeah. I'm curious, do you find that to be a common theme that comes up?

[A]

I find that to be rather soothing, quite honestly.

[B]

Yeah, it is nice that these aliens are.

[A]

Somebody's looking out for us, Smoke some.

[B]

Weed, chill out for a minute, you know what I mean?

[A]

Just take a step back. Absolutely.

[B]

It seems to be recurring though.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. You know, it's really funny because I interviewed this launch control officer and I always remember this and I was like, no wonder why this guy's a launch control officer. He has this demeanor that it was just like he's so calm and centered and measured. Everything comes out of his mouth is like carefully calculated and he's calm. And I said, my God, this shot, the, you know, shut the nukes off and you were gone. What? That's like sending a message. And he goes.

Yeah, James, the.

Message was pretty clear. Maybe I said what? He goes, well, it's like taking matches out of the hands of a baby. Maybe you guys shouldn't be playing around with these things, you know, I wouldn't always just really struck a chord with me, you know, hearing that from the guy who was there watching his nukes get shut off. A UFO come over the base, shut him off and then gone.

You know, can't do anything about it. And then, and this is another thing, it's like these schoolings and there's landings at schools, like, holy smokes, like, wow. You start looking into it. There's a lot of them. Right. I mean I covered the 1966 Westall UFO incident. Shane Ryan, thank you, if you're listening for helping expose that one. But there were 360 plus kids outside.

[B]

Where was this?

[A]

Australia, right outside Melbourne, 1966, April 4th, I believe, or 6th, 5th, 6th. 360 plus people, including the science professor, the teachers and all watching this disc shaped object dart around in the sky over the school, Westall Primary School. And then it lands and a handful of the kids, I interviewed them ran over to where this thing landed and stood there in broad daylight with this disc on the ground. Like.

What is this thing like right there, like almost walk over and touch it and then it lifted back up again, turned on its side and shot off at extremely high rate. And there's a guy named James Kibble that took a photograph, a Polaroid of it, probably the same object just a few kilometers away. Either day before or two days before. Yeah, I think it was maybe two Days prior. It's also in the phenomenon.

So, you know, I don't know. I mean, if I were.

Trying to establish some level of communication. Children are pretty benign. You know, I know our military generally shoots first and asks questions later. So, like, if I were, and I'm just speculating, but if I were to make some. Any kind of peaceful contact, I probably would land at a school too. Right, because you get shot up landing anywhere else. Yeah, you know what I mean?

[B]

You might get a slingshot or something.

A kickball in the window, but you can live. Was there contact in that case? Like, was there any type of communication?

[A]

When I was there, I went on a big radio show in Australia talking about that case, and one person called in and was like, oh, there was an entity outside. But that's the only account. No, generally speaking, no, that was not contact.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

And a good one, too. I mean, you know, can you imagine? And of course, the men in black or the men in suits showed up on that case and threatened the science teacher who just passed Mr. Greenwood. And I got Greenwood to come forward for the first time in history in the phenomenon. And then subsequently to that. Ross Colthart did an interview with him and thank God, because he's no longer with us, but he said, yeah, they came and threatened him big time.

[B]

In what way do you just keep.

[A]

Your mouth shut if you want to keep your job? We're going to destroy you. Like, we're going to say you're drunk, you're drinking with kids. Just all the above. Just threatened him and he didn't talk for 50 years. Wow, 50 years.

[B]

And these are American men and black guys.

[A]

Sometimes, like for instance with. With Virginia, there were a Brazilian speaking person with two other foreigners that they assumed were Americans that didn't open their mouths. And so, but it would probably be at the direction of, of the American. I mean, they certainly, you know, are in control of the situation. Much more than an exception with China and Russia, but the Americans pretty much dominate the global. The reason why I know this is because I've interviewed people from Tehran. I've interviewed people in Africa, south, all over the world. I can give countless cases and I'm like, Americans again. Like, how did you even hear about it? Like, Tehran, Iran was in 1975 with General Parviz Jafari told me, I flew him into Washington D.C. to testify at the National Press Club back in 2007. And he was like, yeah. And then the Americans showed up the next morning and the sighting happened like 2am how did they hear about that so quickly. How did they get there? Like what were they doing?

[B]

Americans, what do you make of that? Like, I mean granted Tehran in 75, it's like pre revolution, so it's probably easier to go.

[A]

Well yeah, but they were also in Belgium in 89. I interviewed the Belgian general, General de Brauer, air force general in Belgium. And he's like, oh yes. And then, you know, the Americans shut up and they wanted the radar reports, the radar tapes. And he's like, okay, well give me an official request and I'll give you copies. They wouldn't do that because it was a paper trial. But it was like, oh, they're investigating that case too. Like they're there there.

[B]

What would Happen?

[A]

Bentwaters, England, 1980. I interviewed the Deputy Base Commander, Colonel Charles Halt. I also interviewed the general on the base and he's like, yeah, this plane flew in, American plane flew in, sanitized, exposed the witnesses to sodium panethal. It's some kind of truth serum. And, and the deputy base commander is like I didn't have. I don't know where the hell this plane came in. They had control of the situation. They, they screwed with my men. They did, you know, took whatever evidence they had, that landing print. Like evidently they took photographs. Those were gone. Like oh, they didn't turn out, you know, but so there's a global, they have a global footprint.

[B]

A trial serum. Have you looked into that before?

[A]

Well, I was just telling you what was told to me by the guy that was there. He just said that they, his men were given this truth serum, I guess trying to find out what they really saw. I don't know.

[B]

Have you ever looked into this, this substance? You said it was sodium.

[A]

Sodium panethal is what I heard.

[B]

Yeah. And have you ever looked into that? It seems like a while.

[A]

What does it say?

[B]

Well known in pop culture under the name sodium pentothol. True serum efficacy is question. Wow, what a. I've never even heard of that.

[A]

Yeah, that's what deputy. That's what Colonel Charles hall told me.

[B]

Yeah, we should try some of that.

[A]

Get some of that on the pod increases. Run to the corner store. Don't believe in UFOs. It's all nonsense.

[B]

Okay.

Immediately we're gonna be ripping lines. Dude, I'm so.

[A]

That is fascinating. Yeah.

[B]

I'm curious. Have you heard of a case of any type of anomalous craft in a, I guess a non friendly country like a North Korea or like a post revolution Iran? And what is the American intervention in that situation?

[A]

I Don't know. To answer your question, I know there are cases in China and I never heard of any Americans being there.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

Yeah, I didn't hear of it. Doesn't mean that's not the case. I didn't hear of it. I don't know if they have a deal with them or not. But Laning case, Meng Jiaohua in the Black Forest, I think, and it happened the same year that. That the Landing case happened in Africa. And the same message.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

Yeah. Being better stewards of the environment.

[B]

Okay, I have a bunch of questions on that, but first I want to ask. It's interesting that Spielberg is kind of the one that, like, low key, tipped you off to the Zimbabwe case.

[A]

Yeah, I know. Yeah.

[B]

And this was, you know, 90s. One explanation is, right, he's like doing this film E.T. and he's discussing, you know, extraterrestrial stuff. And at this point, there's been, you know, many, you know, extraterrestrial type movies.

[A]

So let me say one thing real quick about Spielberg that's relevant to what you're telling me right now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Spielberg did close encounters of third kind. Guess who's in that movie. Dr. Jalen Hynek, who investigated UFOs in an official capacity for the United States Air Force, has a cameo in that movie.

[B]

Oh, that's right. Yeah.

[A]

And that was Spielberg basically saying. And those files came to even down Richard Dreyfus face being burned. That came right out of Project Blue Book files.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So Spielberg worked with the guy that knew.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And he put him in the movie as a. As a little wink. Yeah.

[B]

There's also reference to, like, Jacques Vallee, like his characters.

[A]

Yeah, of course.

[B]

In the film.

[A]

Absolutely. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.

[B]

But this is, this is a guy that is well researched in the field. Right. Which makes sense if you're making multiple movies about it.

[A]

Spielberg has Dr. Heineken in his movie. Like, that's basically like wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

[B]

What do you make of, like, predictive programming in film and tv? You're familiar with this term, the idea of, like, putting things out into pop culture so as to either gauge the public awareness or gauge public awareness to try to placate the public, to try to make things seem crazy in science fiction or to maybe get people prepared for things. This is things I've heard in like, sort of conspiracy world that people have talked about. Like, oh, Men in Black is a way to kind of discredit things that when we're saying Men in Black right now, people go you mean Will Smith, like talking about like a, you know, a hunched over little alien guy. Like, it's so absurd because we've seen it.

[A]

Yeah. That's why I don't like using the word Men in Black. I mean, I say it, but it's because it's got baggage.

[B]

But I'm curious, like, if you have a perspective on. Do these guys do research on films and pull stuff from reality to make great movies? Are they doing the movies intentionally in cooperation with intelligence services to try to inject things into public consciousness? I'm curious if you've thought about that.

[A]

Yeah.

So back in 19, two consecutive weekends in July of 1952, you had. Because people always go, well, if UFOs real, why don't they land on the White House lawn? They almost did it in 52. I don't know if you know about that case, but it was so intense and so many people witnessed. And they scrambled military jets. This is over the Capitol, 1952. Two consecutive weekends in July. You can Google it. UFOs over D.C. 1952.

They had a press conference about it. General John Sanford got up in front of the world. It was the biggest press conference since the end of World War II. It was huge. And it was a big deal. Like, I mean, UFOs were buzzing the Capitol big time, right? And they were shaking in their boots, like, oh my gosh, are we about to make contact? What's going on here? And we can't really deny it because too many people witnessed it. You know, they scrambled military jets. They actually given authorization to shoot. Like it was a big deal. I cover it in the phenomenon. And the Air Force didn't know what to do. So they convened a panel. It was called the Robertson Panel. Just probably January of the following year in 53. And basically consulted with the CIA. It was like, all right, what do we do here? What do we tell the public? How do we deal with this problem, basically? And this panel basically made a number of determinations. But one of the things they said, look, we can't deny the existence or there's too much compelling data. What we can do is we can adopt, and referring to the United States Air Force, we can adopt a policy of ridicule. So you make fun of those who claim to have seen them. And that really stuck. I mean, it was a very effective campaign. And I got to tip my hat to them as much as I'm upset about it. Wow, that worked. You know, because what's so funny about a, you know, an airline, you know, pilot Reporting something that just doesn't make any sense. Like, you know, I mean, all right, these things happen, whatever, but to make fun of them, there's no incentive or career enhancing move to come forward. Particularly an airline wouldn't want to be associated to pilots that see UFOs. It's not good branding. Yeah, of course. So that was a very effective campaign. And as far as like movies being done that can.

Gauge the public interest or awareness, I mean, I had a lot of people when Close Encounters of the Third Kind came out, they were like people that are witnesses. Like they felt validated, like, oh my God, that's exactly what I saw. Well, that happened to me. It's like, you know, wow. And honestly, I'm not exactly sure what, what Spielberg's objective was or was he, I mean, he certainly was working with government insiders in the sense that Dr. Hynek, who investigated in official capacity, participated in that movie and was a consultant. Jacques Vallee, his, his character was portrayed, you know, so there's a lot of truth in that movie. Lots of truth. And it was tremendously popular. But was the government behind? I don't, I don't know. I don't know.

[B]

It's not out of the, the realm of possibility.

[A]

No. But I remember hearing about it might have been Men in Black. You could look it up. But they basically said to the director or the producers, like, if you mention Area 51, you're no longer going to have any of our support. Or Roswell with the bodies. Area 51, it was like, that's, we're, that's, that's. We, we're not going to, we're not going to cooperate with you at all.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

And they did anyway. Yeah, I heard about, I think it was Men in Black, but it could have been another one. But, but anyway, you can, you can research it.

[B]

What's up, people? We're going to take a break because we got new merch.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

Like, I almost wonder things like this, like, the memeification of, like, alien culture. Like, you go to Roswell today and there's, like, UFO cafe and, like, trinkets and stuff.

[A]

Come crash with us.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. And it's fun. But I almost wonder if it. Once again, like, kind of if we're under. If we're operating under the premise that, like, these things are actual retrievals, that the US Government is in possession of. The memeification kind of dilutes the discourse, you know? Like, it kind of makes it seem like, oh, yeah, little silly. Yeah, it's fun. It's goofy. Like an Area 51, you know, restaurant in Nevada. It's like, oh, yeah, it's a goofy thing. And I wonder if. If it's intentional, if it's allowed, if it's permitted because it sort of moves people off of trails or if it's just sort of, you know, a happenstance, and people can't really stop it. And if that's just how humans operate, we memeify stuff. We kind of make things, or the.

[A]

Truth comes out in a joke. You know, it's like it sort of adds levity to the situation and. Excuse me. And I think people are fascinated, whether they believe it or they don't believe it, or maybe they're leaning heavily into it, or maybe they're like, me, like, well, I don't believe it, but I'm willing to look into it.

But I think making light of a situation. I mean, I don't know if you're familiar with the Phoenix Lights case, but the governor initially set out five Simon. And remember, he'd just seen himself. He does a press conference. Well, he goes forward to the press and he's like, you know, we're launching an investigation. We're going to address this. We're going to get to the bottom of it. I'm contacting the Luke Air Force Base and the Department of Homeland Security, you know, and then later that day, and I'm convinced at this point, at this day, he got a phone call, but he denies it emphatically. But he has a press conference where he has one of his aides dressed up in a little alien suit and makes light of the whole thing. And people were pissed. Like, the witnesses were really upset. In fact, when I was going to interview the governor, which everyone's like, I always say, if I have a.000001% chance of doing something, I'm going for it, right? And I was like, I'm interview the governor. And everyone's like, my partner's like, yeah, good luck with that. He goes, you don't have a snowball's chance in hell. I was like, well, I'm going for it. And he granted me an interview. And so. And everyone's like, well, what's he going to say? I said, who gives a shit? Let's go. And on my way to do that interview with. Yep, there it is. On my way to do the interview with Fife, I called one of the.

One of the witnesses, Stacey Rhodes, Fascinating. Her and her daughter Emily saw this. I mean, they pulled over. I think they pulled over on the side of the road. It was on Interstate 10 between Tucson and Phoenix. And there was that huge boomerang shape. She goes, james, I could have opened up a newspaper above my head, and I couldn't have blocked this thing out. That's how big it was. And it took minutes to fly over but in any case, I called her up. I said, stacey, and I'm gonna keep in touch with her. I was like, you're not gonna believe who I'm going to see. And she's like, like who? And I go, I'm going to interview five Simon Chin. Like that. She goes, oh, my gosh, you're gonna. You know. And I said, is there anything you'd like to say to him? She goes, you're damn right I would. Right. Cause after you pulled that stunt. So she said, you're damn right I would. And so I said, well, hold on, let me, Let me, Let me. Let me record a statement, and then I'll play it for him at the right time during the interview. So I wasn't sure what his intentions were, the governor to tell me. I think what he wanted to do was he got a lot of backlash from that incident of making light of it, as you and I were talk about earlier, like, just making life. Had his aide dressed up as an alien. You know, when people were really pissed off, like it, people very, very upset. And I think he felt like, okay, maybe I should address that. I wasn't sure how far he was going to go in the interview, and I didn't quite honestly care, but I wanted to get in the room with him.

[B]

Now, just for timeline, the interview that.

[A]

You did with 10 years, after 10 years.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yep. And so it was 10th year anniversary was coming up, and so I said, well, I'm not going to. To ambush him with this recording. Because she was like, I'm as you're constant you. And I put you in office, and I saw this thing, and you went up there, made fun of every one of us. How could you do that to us?

Like, she was letting it out 10 years later, like, you know, you. You know, and so I was like, well, I better not do that, right? Let me get as much as I can get out of this guy. And then I'm gonna say, oh, by the way, you know, and he got a little comfortable, a little uncomfortable in his chair. But I said, oh, I. You know, 45 minutes into the interview, whatever it was, I said, I got this little message. One of your constituents and a witness to the event. And she just would like to, you know, ask you a question if, you know, I recorded it earlier today. He's like, oh. And he kind of adjusts his seat a little bit, you know, and here we go, like, ready to take this hit, you know, and press play. And he sat there and I could see his brain processing, like you played the whole thing? I did, yeah. And he sat there and he was like, prostate. I was like, this is gonna go either way. I don't know what. This guy might just get up and be like, you know? Yeah. And he sat there and he listened to her, and it sunk in. And that's when he was like.

I feel you.

I, too, saw that thing, and I didn't feel that it was of this earth, of this world, or otherworldly, I think is how he phrased it. And I'm sitting there, and it was one of the first times in my career where I was like, this can't be happening.

So I reached down. I swear on my life reached down and I pinched my leg. I did. I pinched my leg. See, if I could feel, like, was I dreaming? Like, did I just get the governor to come forward and admit that he saw that thing, too? Like. So I pinched my leg, and I'm like, I can feel that I'm not dreaming. I swear to God. So then I look at the camera. I'm like, the camera's probably not rolling. So I look at the camera, and I see the red light and the numbers ticking away. I'm like, the camera's moving and I'm not dreaming. Holy shit. I got the governor. The governor. Like, this is gonna drop big, right? And it did. But it was like. I think he just had this moment where, like, just, like, you know what? You know, I'm just gonna just whatever the consequences. Yeah, let's go. You know? And he did.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

But he goes. He goes, you know, honestly, James.

We had a couple drinks a couple times, we hung out quite a bit, and I figured he would lighten up a little bit. Maybe. He would tell me he got a phone call to him to shut it down, but he. He. He denies it. I don't know if I believe it, because he was. One minute, he was like, gung ho, Launch investigation, full transparency. Next minute, it's all a joke. You know, blah, blah, blah. You know, you saw the alien in the. Yeah. He's like. His lead aide is like, you know, the truth comes out in a joke. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's like, you know, it was aliens.

[B]

Kind of thing, which is so funny. This girl probably went to some Ivy League school.

[A]

So anyway, so this story. This story, I think. Sorry, I think Leslie Cain might have written an article. Excuse me. About it, but it exploded. I mean, it exploded, and they were contacting everyone. All the media was contacting Governor Symington. And to his credit, he Goes, no, James is coming with me. James is the reason why I'm coming forward. And he's coming no matter what press I'm doing. He's mandatory. He's coming with me. And I really admired him for that. He was like, this guy deserves the credit. He approached me. He got me to come forward. And so I get a phone call. I'm going on a tangent here, but it's kind of funny. Yeah. I get a phone call from. At the time, you know, the. Joe Rogan was Larry King. Right. Larry King was Joe Rogan. I mean, he was like, you know. And I get a phone call, and it was from Avriell Gallagher. Excuse me. And she's like, oh, this is Avril Gallagher. Gallagher from Larry King, cnn. We'd like to invite you on the show. And I. And I. I was like, yeah, yeah. And pigs fly or said some asinine response. And she goes, excuse me. And then I said to myself, shit, this really is CNN calling.

[B]

Keep pinching yourself. Pinch yourself again. Yeah.

[A]

You know, I was like, oh, my gosh. You know, so anyway. But we ended up doing a bunch of public. And it was. And it was a big. It was a big story. But, yeah, he. He made fun of it.

[B]

It.

[A]

And he says he did it because people were panicking and he needed to add some levity, you know.

[B]

Yeah. I can understand his position. On the one hand, it's like, all right, well, let's just kind of brush it off.

[A]

No, I mean, that could have been a turning point. Yeah. In 97.

[B]

And then, not to mention, you know, I don't know when he's running for reelection, but this comes up, and they're like, oh, yeah, do you want to vote for the guy that saw aliens, that sees UFOs? To this discrediting point? It's like, yeah, okay, I have to push this down. And then 10 years later, to be confronted with the sort of shame and humiliation that his constituents felt that he didn't back them up. I can understand the sort of wave of emotion where he's like, yeah, I did sell all these people out. They saw something and they. I said that I would investigate it, and then I completely turned my backs on them, and now it's time to rectify that. I can imagine that's a difficult position to be in.

[A]

You know, it's always best to tell the truth despite the consequences. They won't come back and bite you in the ass, and people will respect you for it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm seeing that now. People are coming Forward.

Right now with the crash case in Virginia. We've got this neurosurgeon who's coming forward for the first time in 30 years.

[B]

Just on that incident, the Phoenix Lights. Did you speak. You spoke with Larry about it, With Larry King?

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

What was his demeanor? Was he. I mean, I imagine he's the supreme skeptic.

[A]

Oh, you know, So I did nine shows with Larry King and. And a couple of them. Thank you. Executive producer Wendy Walker, who, like, pretty much gave me the budget and said, what do you want to do? I'm on a satellite feed here. I want to fly this guy in here. I want this FAA official being in here. And I was organizing all the shows and I had a budget. I was like, oh, my God, this is amazing. I was kicking ass. Like, you know what I mean? And we did like nine shows, but.

Maybe the second or third show in, pretty compelling information coming in. Had the governor with me, went to commercial break and Larry goes.

Shit, this stuff's real, isn't it? Swear to God.

[B]

Like, off air?

[A]

Yeah, off air. He goes, shit, this stuff's real. Like, he was just coming to the realization. I had a colonel next to me. I had the governor. I had like. Like, I had FAA officials, I had like. I mean, they were real serious people saying, like, yeah, this is fucking real. Yes. It landed in our base like this or that. And he was like. He had this look on his face to me, the way I felt. It was like, I am mainstream media. And we missed this story or we missed this story. And then, you know, kept having more and more shows and. And what was funny, actually, in retrospect, because Leslie Keen and I, contributing editor to the New York Times, got a piece out right now.

We had an event at the National Press Club around that time, 2007. And I broke the story in 2006 with Fife Symington, because it was happening in 97. It was roughly coming up on the 10 year anniversary. And we were just saying, hey, we need to reopen Project Blue Book, essentially, is what was happening. We were pushing for that public publicly. Like, all we're asking is that we need another. We need to reopen the government investigation. Little did we know that OSAP and AATIP and Senator.

Harry Reid, the former Senate Majority Leader, did exactly that, but he did it in private.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And that was happening. Exactly. And Leslie and I go, my God, that was happening right at the time. We were pushing for it and it was happening, but it was happening behind the scenes.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And.

The only reason why we Know about what we know today because people go, oh, there's like this sudden big epiphany with the intel folks and the government. They want the public to know that's not what happened at all. What happened was a couple of people protested in excessive secrecy. They took those tapes, found a loophole, and they walked them out of the Pentagon like a pimp in a briefcase, right to the front page of the New York Times. Wow.

[B]

And that was the 2017.

[A]

Thank you, Christopher Mellon and Lou Elizondo. That was the 20th that exploded into the headlines.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, and they walked those tapes at great risk. Yeah. Granted, they did find a loophole, but they did not want those tapes out.

[B]

So this idea that there's some type of concerted media effort to disclose this thing on behalf of the government.

[A]

Handful of handful of people. That said, we don't care the consequences. The public has a right to know. And screw you guys, because there are people on the inside that want this out. They go a big psyop or whatever. The psyop is coming from the people that don't want it out. That's what the psyop is. There are good people within the government that do want this out. There are people that have a brain and have a heart and have compassion and sympathy and. You know what I mean? Like, all right, sure, sure. There's certain aspects of the phenomenon that probably should remain classified. The technology. I don't want somebody get in the wrong hands and put a bomb on it. I get that. But the fact that we're not alone, and I think that's. I don't know my opinion, and in the opinion of many others that we have a right to know about. That's a global right. Every man, woman, and child has a right to know that we are not alone.

[B]

I'm curious just in relation to you speaking with so many people that have experienced this phenomenon in so many different capacities, whether it's like an eyewitness drinking tea outside, or if it's a government official, a general that is completely sort of a anonymous because of how close they are to the actual events. Certainly you've spoken with people that have dubious reporting or dubious accounts. I'm curious, like, what is the criteria that you go through when interviewing these people to assess is this legitimate and credible, or is this someone that's suffering from a delusion with a mental health issue? How do you navigate that?

[A]

Well, I always like to see all people's medical, Medical records, military records, photographs in the military, older military records. I wanted to do a deep dive in their reporting. Right. So that's very important to me. Does their story, like, conflict with other people that were on the base that night or. You know what I mean? Or does it seem to be like, for instance, there was a really good case. Bentwaters, England, 1980, December, a landing. And there were the general, the base commander, a bunch of other witnesses, the. That, you know, two of which sat with the craft on the ground. Burroughs and Penniston, another guy named.

Come to me in a second. Anyway.

All their stories jived, right, except one. There was one guy, Larry Warren. No offense to you. I'm, you know, I believe that you believe what you're saying, but it just. It was so far left field, it conflicted big time with everybody else's story.

[B]

So.

[A]

And thinking to myself, like, you know, it would make sense that if I was trying to cover something up that happened, that I would get one guy, feed him a bunch of wacky crazy stuff, have him spewing off about it. You know, maybe he really believes that, or maybe somehow his memory was influenced, I don't know. And that would sort of muddy the waters. It's a very effective campaign, right? Because it's like, oh, well, I heard that was a lighthouse, or that was this. Or didn't they have aliens getting. No, that's not what they're saying. But one guy is. So I opted to leave him out because that just didn't add up to me at all.

[B]

Was his explanation completely, like, sort of material? Like, oh, it never happened?

[A]

Like, no, like, oh, the aliens got out, we made contact, and da, da, da, da, da, da, da. And everyone's like, no, it didn't. Like everybody across the board, yeah, it landed, we saw it land, we saw it take off, but there was no contact made.

[B]

So it was even more outrageous.

[A]

It was so outlandishly, like, crazy that it would make you just go, you know what? I don't want anything to do with this case.

[B]

You know, Interesting.

[A]

Did it happen intentionally? I don't know. It's pretty effective. But I looked at that, I listened to him, I listened to it, and I decided, you know what? I'm not gonna. So I, you know, people's military records. Is their testimony consistent with all the others? And again, I usually, generally, generally speaking, I. I do, you know, mass sightings, mass. More.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, I'll cover a single one every now and again, but for the most part, it's bigger.

[B]

What do you make of, like, individual abductions?

[A]

So.

I don't delve down that rabbit hole. However, I was friends with a gentleman named Bud Hopkins and in 2007 and he was super duper excited. He'd done. And I have tremendous respect for people that investigate these so called abduction cases. Whatever's going on, if it's true, poof, that'd be a reason for secrecy. Because I was like, oh, these little critters are coming and taking people in the middle of the night. He's like, oh, my God. But he did this experiment where he was interviewing and doing some sort of meditation or when you call that when you take people.

[B]

Like a regression.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Past life regression.

[A]

People talk about somehow going to some deep meditation.

[B]

A memory regression.

[A]

Yeah, something like that.

[B]

Memory recovery, sometimes people.

[A]

Something like that. But he was doing that with patience. Alleged abductees. And I'm not, I'm not poo pooing any of the. I'm just going to give you my, my what impressed me. And he was very excited. Bud Hopkins. And he was showing me these drawings that various witnesses or alleged abductees had made. And what he said was, what do you see on the craft? You're on the table. What do you see? Is there anything on the walls? Do you see? You know, and they all drew this symbol that was on a wall of the craft. And every single one of them from different countries, from different. All drew the same symbol, slightly different variation. But he goes, look at this.

I went, that's pretty compelling. That's pretty compelling. Is this a dream? If it is, that's pretty interesting. That to me, for me personally, I was like, wow, that's pretty compelling stuff there, Bud.

[B]

Has that symbol been publicly disclosed?

[A]

I don't know. Maybe.

[B]

You saw it though?

[A]

I did. Oh, I saw, yeah. I saw all the drawings.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

Yeah. He was all excited and he showed it to me.

[B]

And you felt that there was legitimate comparison there.

[A]

I was like, like, wow, that's impressive to me. I mean, wouldn't it be impressive?

[B]

Yeah, of course. But it wasn't like some type of generic. It wasn't like a circle or something like that?

[A]

No, no, no, no. It was a symbol, like something detailed. Oh, very much so, yeah. And they were all trying to draw it and they were all drawing a very different variation of the same. Clearly the same symbol that was on the wall, allegedly of the spacecraft. Allegedly. But it was compelling, interesting to me. It was like, wow, that's pretty impressive. Yeah.

[B]

Speaking with people that have been abducted in their abduction stories, I am Charles Walter.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Best case.

[B]

Yeah. And there's many of them. But I'm always moved by the intensity and the fervor that they're describing. The experience with that it leads me, because either they're suffering some type of delusion, they're lying, or aliens or some type of abduction actually occurred. Right? It's like, kind of falls into these sort of silos for me. And I don't think that they're lying. So I'm now in these two camps where I'm like, somehow this guy had an experience that. That he can't explain that is legitimately traumatizing. They're talking about being probed and being analyzed. And it's, like, very emasculating of an experience. And I don't know what to make of it. I come away from it every time being like, I believe that this happened to him either here or here, but I don't know where.

[A]

I gotta tell you, this is really funny because you guys can look this up. It's Allagash 5 or Allagash 4. It's abductee that. That. Excuse me. Abductees in the 70s. And it was like, I don't know, look at. See if we can find it. I'm at a dinner table, this is like 20 plus years ago with a couple of these witnesses. And.

They were out a very remote area of wilderness. And.

They said they were on a fishing boat. They had a fire on the beach. They were at campsites. They're on this little boat, and they're out there fishing at night under the stars. And they said they saw this light, like, way off over the forest, like, way off in the distance. And one of them, I think they were like, school teachers. And one of them was like, oh, got my flashlight. And I was just kind of curious. I figured I'd try to send a message to, you know, whatever this thing was curious. So he flexes light on this thing off in the distance. And he said, not a moment later, that object that was way off in the distance shot across the sky right over our boat. Four guys. Yeah, 1976. So the guy goes. At which point my curiosity was fully satisfied. Like, that is what he said to me.

[B]

Well, it worked. Let's get to the beach for a second.

[A]

So they're, like, racing, trying to get back to the campsite in their canoe. And then the next thing. Then this thing just got them. I mean, they just, like, got them all. And then they. Oh, that would be missing time. Missing time. And they're back at their campsite. It's like the fire's almost out and they're just, like, looking at each other. Well, I guess they didn't talk about it at all. No recollection, really. Just lost track time. They're sitting there and they call in their tents, they go to sleep. The next morning, they pack up, they leave. And then they all started having these nightmares. Yeah. Of being on a table and being like, you know, just like you would if you caught, like, a rabbit out in the wild and you wanted to kind of not kill it, but take blood, whatever. You know, just examine it or whatever. But, yeah, that's really compelling. What makes it compelling is, you know, you got multiple. There are multiple people. Something happened to those guys. Something happened, you know, Travis Walton, what, seven witnesses, right? 75, maybe Snowflake, Arizona. These guys, like, what I find so credible about that case is the movie made about it called Fire in the Sky. And it was very accurate up until the point where he went aboard the craft. At that point, it was a dramatization. But I think Paramount insisted they did it that way, which was silly. But these guys see this UFO. Like, they had this. It was 19. It was 75. That case. They had, like, those trucks that have four doors. And so there was, like, three people in the front and four in the back. And they were loggers, and they had a contract with the government. They're trying to, like, meet the deadlines, and they're working late, and it's like, you know, the sun's gone down, and they're, like, driving on these dirt roads, very remote, and they see what they thought maybe was a fire or something, this really bright light off in the distance. And they came up on it, and it was a perfect disc, just hovering, maybe treetop level or maybe a little bit lower. But it was right there. I mean, they were like, oh, my God. Travis Walton, one of the witnesses before the truck even stopped, he's jumping out to get a closer look because he's thinking to himself, oh, my God. Like, I gotta get a closer look at this thing, because before it shoots off. Well, it didn't shoot off. It stayed there. And all the guys in the truck were screaming at him, screaming at him to stop. Get back here. What are you doing? Get back. You know? And he runs up to it, and then it starts making this, like.

Sound like a humming or some kind of. Like something was winding up, like something was happening. And he's freaking out, so he hides behind this log. He kind of crouches down behind this log. The guys in the truck are screwed, screaming at him to get back and he's thinking, you know what? Maybe that wasn't such a good idea. And he's pretty damn close to it. I better get back to the truck. And he gets up behind this log, and something hits him. And he goes. Like a Raggedy Ann doll. He's thrown. And that driver hits the foot on the gas pedal, thinking they're next. And they blaze out of there, and they're going. And they're screaming at each other like, we gotta. We can't leave Travis. Like, we can't leave him there for dad. We can't do that. And I guess the driver, who's. I guess Travis was dating his sister or something. And the driver's like, I'm not leaving him. We're turning around and all. A couple of the guys in the truck were like, well, I'm not. You don't want to go. I'll let you out right here. You guys wait. And they're like, no, let's stick together. So they stick together. They turn around, they go back. Disc gone, traps gone. So what do they do? They look to the best of their ability, Travis. You know, they scour the area, and they were pretty freaked out, as you can imagine. So I go down in town and they tell the local authorities, you know, what happened, and they're like, basically, you guys are all under arrest for homicide. Yeah. And they're like, you know, they all ended up taking lie detectors. You can imagine. Like, oh, yeah, flying saucers zapped our buddy. Yeah. And pigs fly, right? Yeah. But they all maintain to this day. I mean, it's like. And then he reappears a week later. It's an incredible case. Yeah, incredible case.

[B]

And what do you make of it?

[A]

Have you spoken with it?

[B]

Have you spoken with Travis?

[A]

Yes, yes. In fact, I went to the exact location where it happened, and there was some examination of accelerated growth of the trees right around at the epicenter of where the UFO was. Somehow the propulsion caused the tree rings to accelerated growth. That Some sort of energy field. I don't know. But we went and cut, you know, cut the trees and looked at the rings and had some people examine that and. And, you know, so that was interesting. Right? But. But I interviewed another couple of the witnesses that were in the truck, and it was really funny because one of them was working at Walmart and he was really busy, and he's like, look, man, I'm really busy, you know, I guess I could. I can meet you on my cigarette break at Walmart, and if you want to come. I was like, yeah, I'll take what I can get. Sure, let's. Yeah, I want to hear from all you guys, as many as I could. So.

I said. I said, well, what. You know, what did the UFO look like? And. And he goes, God, have you ever seen, like, a brand new Corvette? Like, brand new on the showroom floor? Beautiful. So beautiful like this. I was like, a brand new Corvette, like. He goes, yeah, man. You. You know how perfect those Corvettes are. So perfect. He goes, this was more perfect. It was just, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Drew a little. You know what I mean? But isn't that funny?

[B]

Wow.

[A]

All those years later, I could see in his eyes, just enamored. Dude. He was looking at it. He was. He wasn't looking at me, man. He was looking at that Corvette. He was looking at that object in the sky. Oh, yeah.

[B]

I mean, dudes are the best. Even when in the face of alien abduction, you're like, dude, I want one of those.

[A]

He was like, you ever see a brand new Corvette? Brand.

[B]

Like, he's been in that truck too long. He's like, dude, I gotta get a new. I gotta get a new car.

[A]

Funny man. If I had the money, I'd buy him a brand new Corvette. Wherever you are out there, you deserve it.

[B]

That's wild. Yeah.

[A]

That crazy.

[B]

What's up, people? We're gonna take a break really quick because I have amazing news. I'm coming on the road. That's right. My very first headlining tour, where I'm going to every city that will possibly allow me to go there. I'm going to Fort Wayne, Indiana, Chicago, Hoboken, New Jersey. I'm going to Salt Lake City. I'm going to Washington, D.C. and Charlotte, North Carolina, in February. Those tickets will be announced soon. And of course, I'm doing my monthly show at Mary Louise in New York City. On December 16, the best comics in the city will be coming out, and I'll be working out some new material. It is a grand old time. You can get all the tickets at Mark Yagnon Live, and I'll see you guys there. Let's get back to the show. When talking with Travis, did you feel that there was a discomfort in the way he described the event? Was he.

[A]

So I have a technique that I use that.

Every now and again when I want to. When I really want to hear a story, because I'm fascinated. You know, I'm curious. I'm just curious by nature. And if I want to, like, really, like, if. Let's say you had an encounter, and I just wanted to. Hey, man, I really want to get this out. I want to know every single.

[B]

And you don't have True Serum nearby?

[A]

Exactly. I don't have the sodium pentothal. Yeah. What I do is I close my eyes and I let their words. Which seems kind of weird, right? But I tell them ahead of time, like, I'm going to close my eyes because I want your words to create the imagery needed to really put me in your shoes. I want to see what you saw. I want every detail imaginable. So I did that with Travis. We went to dinner together years ago, and I've met him subsequently a number of times. I said, travis, I'm so sorry. I know you've been through this so many times. I really hate to ask you this, but can you put me on board that craft? Like, what you saw, Please? And he's like, yeah. And I said, I want every detail imaginable, and I'm going to close my eyes. I want to hear it. Yeah. So I close my eyes, and then he starts telling me. And then I say, well, hang on. Did you see this? How wide was the door? How the ceiling's low? Where did the light source come from? What did the walls feel like? You know? And I just. I get every detail. So then I'm living it. And I actually did that with an Apollo astronaut, the sixth man to walk on the moon, Edgar Mitchell, because we were talking UFOs. But then I said, can you put me on the moon? Like, can you tell me? You know what I mean? And so I closed my eyes with him, and he told me every detail of what it was like to go to the moon. So then I had a dream of going to the moon, and I really went. Cause I knew every detail. Wow. It was incredible. That's what I do. So I closed my eyes, and so that's what I did with Travis. So I could tell you everything he saw. Yeah, I mean, I don't. We don't need to get into it here, but sure. Yeah.

[B]

That is fascinating.

[A]

Isn't that cool?

[B]

I mean, you must have pretty good mental imagery.

[A]

Well, you know, I have a lot of deficiencies. I do. I really do. I have a lot of deficiencies. I had all kinds of, you know, disabilities growing up, you know, but. But that. I've. I've got a couple real strengths. And storytelling and listening is when I'm. When I'm curious, when I want to know, when I'm interested in a topic.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

I will get every detail, and I'll never forget it.

[B]

Now I'm curious, and forgive me if this has been sort of explained ad nauseam, but have you experienced anything sort of unexplainable in this regard? Have you yourself experienced a craft? Have you yourself had dreams that were vivid, that were unexplainable? Anything in that regard that you feel like is substantial?

[A]

I can answer that. It's going to be a few minutes. Answer if you want me to.

[B]

I will.

[A]

Yeah. So when I was 20 years and years ago, I was with a girlfriend, Lisa Rinehart, and It was about 9 o' clock at night, we were in Northern California, and there was a big window.

Almost the size of that wall. A big, big window, like maybe three by four or something. Glass. One sheet to the right of our bed. We're hanging out, and all of a sudden, to our right, out the window, we see this, like.

Egg shaped, yellowy orange light.

If I had to guess, I would say half the size of a tiny little Volkswagen Beetle, maybe. Maybe a little smaller.

And we're looking at it and it's kind of like. It's kind of.

Almost like breathing. I don't know. It was like the intensity of the light was changing, fluctuating a little bit. It was just kind of doing this, you know? She goes.

I can swear, right?

[B]

Please, you're required.

[A]

Thank you. She goes, what the fuck is that? And I'm looking at it. And I said, I don't know what that is, but whatever it is, I get the feeling it knows we're looking at it. She goes, yeah, I feel the same thing. Close the blinds. So in my haste, I leapt up out of bed in my underwear, grabbed the blinds to pull them down, and I rip them off the wall and they hit the floor. Now I'm fumbling around trying to put the damn blinds back up while this thing is sitting there just pulsating right in my face, like right there. And we were both scared, like, what is that thing? You know? And so I get the blinds back up and we clutch each other in bed and we're just like freaking out.

[B]

What is that?

[A]

And I don't know, maybe a couple minutes went by and she goes.

Let'S check to see if it's still there.

Pull the blinds back a little bit. It was gone. My older sister Janine comes home. She'd been at a concert or something, and she's like, hey, guys, what are you guys doing? What are you guys doing up like this? We're like, we just saw this ufo.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

She goes, oh, cool. Like this. And then we told Her a little bit. And that was that. Woke up the next morning, you'd think I would tell my dad everybody lived at the house. It didn't happen. Didn't say a word. It was like, it did. I don't know. Didn't think about it. So.

Almost 20 years later, I'm visiting a really good friend of mine. This guy John Kimmel, lives down in Southern California. One of. One of my best friends. And he's like. He's like, when you get here, we're going. We're gonna do a. We're gonna run the beach, and then we're gonna swim out to the. To the. There's a buoy, like, a mile. I don't know, what a mile. What a quarter mile, whatever, way offshore. We're gonna swim out to that buoy, and then we're gonna come back in, and we're gonna run back. And I'm like, oh, man. He goes, you're gonna do it with me? And I was like, you know, I stay fairly fit. I hike and whatever. But he's like, another level, right? So we jog the beach, we swim out to the buoy, get back in. And I was like, hey, John. I was like, I don't know. I want to go to the right. And he goes, james, there's nothing to the right. I'm telling you, I live here. It's open, barren beach, nothing. There's no food down there. Our car's parked over this way. I said, I want to go to the right. And we argued about it. And I said, well, you want to go do your thing? I'm going, right? So I go, right? And he's like, all right, let me just show you, you idiot, how there's nothing down here. So there's like, big, expansive, empty beach, and we see way off in the distance, just a little dot of a couple people on the beach, but that's it. Other than that, it's completely empty. Get closer and closer and closer to those little dot, and it's a little family. It's a wife and a husband and a girl about 6, 7 years old hanging out.

I'm looking, and I'm looking, and I'm like, lisa. It was Lisa Reinhardt who had the UFO sighting with me. Yeah. And she goes, james. And I'm like, Lisa. Like, yeah. Oh, my God. What are you doing here? We're both visiting. We don't live there. Yeah. Swear to God. So I was like, oh, my gosh. You know, I was like, this is my husband. This is my daughter. Oh, my God. She pulls me aside. She goes, you remember that UFO sight we had? I said, you're damn right I do. I said, what do you remember? And then she told me, because I didn't want to tell her. I wanted to remember. She remembered it exactly as I did. So she tells me. And I was like. I was like, oh, my God. She goes, do you think that has anything to do with what you're doing now? I said, I don't know, Lisa. I don't know. I didn't tell anybody about it. I don't talk about it. It's like it didn't happen. In fact, if you weren't with me, I would never talk about it.

[B]

It.

[A]

You know, But I was like. And it wasn't like, you know, people like, I interview people that watch disc come down and land on a parking lot. Wow, that's pretty. Ours was more ambiguous, but it was something that. The part that was fascinating to me was that it knew we were looking at it. We both felt it. I could call it right now. It's like, that's the one part. And I don't know. And she said to me, like, do you think that has anything. I. I was like, I. I don't know. I. I have no idea. Yeah, but it was like she never told her husband. I didn't tell any. You know. Yeah. So that's not weird in the sense.

[B]

That it's looking at you. Describe that it wasn't like it was looking.

[A]

Well, let's see.

[B]

Like, the feeling of being watched.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. No, no. It feel like it knew that we were looking at it. So I guess that was looking at us. I guess. I don't know. It was like, looking at us, but it knew we were looking at it.

[B]

And other than fear, how do you explain it? Was there a feeling that you had, Was there that fear talked about?

[A]

No, no.

[B]

It was pure.

[A]

It was all scared. It wasn't scared because it was making, like, any kind of, like, excuse me, you know, like, threatening behavior. You know, it was just the unknown.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Excuse me. Like, what is that? What is that?

[B]

And at this point, had you been researching this topic? Had you read a book?

[A]

No, no. In fact, we used to have this guy. He was friends with the family. His family owned Yardley soap, and he was a pilot, and he was a really good friend. He's from England. My dad's British, and I was born in England. Family's English. And.

He come over for, like, Thanksgiving dinners and stuff like that. And he used to tell this story about a UFO encounter they had in an airplane. And I just had no interest. It was just like, oh, cool. You know, not even cool. Like it didn't, you know, know. And it was a pretty good one too. I actually called him later and I was like, michael, you remember that? He goes, well, you never really interested. I go, well, I am now. Like, I want to hear it.

[B]

Times have changed.

[A]

Yeah, times have changed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So anyway, yeah, I don't know. I really don't know.

[B]

It's so interesting. I even the fact that you didn't have a ton of experience before because so, so often I'll talk to people that have had like really close experiences where like they were abducted or they've felt something, etc. And I don't use this to discredit, but it's always predicated by some type of loose curiosity in the topic that kind of precedes the event. So they'll be like, you know, I didn't know anything about it. Then I watched a movie, then I read a book and then bam, it happened. And I had this crazy experience that's unexplainable. And to me it always sows a little bit of doubt where I go like, well, you were kind of into it and it drew you in. And granted I haven't talked to the high ranking military personnel you spoke with, but that kind of a thing always makes me question. Like, well, you're into it. Maybe you had like a stroke or something, you fell asleep. Who knows exactly what happened. But the fact that you didn't have really any prior curiosity to the event.

[A]

More than lack less than that. I had, I had no, I didn't even want to hear. I didn't. It was like you're crazy kind of thing. Like I, in the back of my mind, I was so dismissive of it. Like, you know, like, I wasn't even curious.

[B]

How long after that event did you start to get curious?

[A]

Six years? Five or six years.

[B]

And then what predicated that flip?

[A]

So I had a really good friend, Renee, and we went to high school together. And I was apprenticing at a video production company in Northern California. And I was like really fascinated with the advent of the video and like instant playback and like editing. And I just thought it was a really cool medium, you know. And so I was like working for free but learning. I was an apprentice at this company.

And.

My buddy, we were good friends in high school. And then as one does, I went off, did some stuff. He went off and did some stuff. And we reconnected like, four or five years after high school. And he's like, james, you hear about Roswell, the alien spaceship? Like this. And I was like, oh. Oh, God. My buddy lost his mind. Like, what the fuck? I just lost one of my best friends. Like, shit.

[B]

Sad, man.

[A]

Yeah, I was really sad. I was like. I really was. I was like, I'm gonna have to write this guy. I'm gonna have to cut this guy loose.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I'm in the production house, and I was probably 24, 25, and Richard Van Sickle and I. Tremendous respect for him. And he was really an amazing producer, director, editor. And I was like, hey, Richard. You know, I was like, God. You know, my really good friend has, like, lost his mind. He's starting to talk about alien, Roswell. Something crashed, and the aliens and this and UFOs. And Richard goes, dude, you don't know about that. I go, no, about what? He goes, the Roswell. I said, no, no, I don't know. I mean, I've heard about it, but, like, no. He goes, oh, yeah, dude. Dude, the military fucking. They announced it. They actually said, we recovered it. I said, they did. He goes, yeah, man. Look at the headline. Like, you know. He goes, oh, yeah, you didn't know about that stuff. Like, he goes, oh, that's legit, dude. Yeah. I was like, richard, really, dude? You, like, you know. And he goes, yeah, man. Like. So I started looking into it a little bit. I was like, huh? They did admit they got that they recanted. But a lot of people that recanted later went on the record and said, no, the original story was true. I was like, that's interesting. So then I started, like, I don't know, looking into it a little more. I attended a couple conferences. I met some military guys. I was like.

Maybe there's something going on here. Interesting. And my dad, who was a quadriplegic with ms, who was a mainstream journalist and always super supportive, he was the guy that was always like, no matter what you want to do in life, son, you know, I respect. You want to be a garbage man. You want to be a lawyer, a doctor, whatever. I'm 100% behind you. Nothing but support and love. He was like, you're out of your fucking mind and you are gonna. There's a dead. He said, dead end street. He goes, you are going nowhere with this. There's nothing to it. Don't waste your life, son, please. To me. I was like, oh, Mr. Supportive Guy, like, always supporting me no matter what.

[B]

Like, yeah, I was Lying there. You're gonna be a doctor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think this was gonna happen.

[A]

I was like. I was shocked. I was like, dad, hello, it's your son here. Like, I'm just curious. He was begging me. Not only was he begging me not to do it, but he had all of our family members in Europe writing me letters, going, your dad's very concerned about what's going on right now, and I just want to check in with you. Like, don't, you know, don't do this. Like. And I just thought, fuck you guys. Like, I'm just curious. I want to. And so I was like, oh, yeah? Well, watch this, you know? And I think that got me enough where it motivated me to the point where I worked so hard. I was making a documentary. It's really hard. I was like, jesus, nobody told me how hard this is, you know, making my first one, like, years into it, you know, And I sold that baby to Discovery Channel. And everyone was like, damn, did your dad come around? Well, well, so he didn't on the first one, but then.

I'd made a bunch of requests for interviews on my first one that didn't. Acceptance didn't come through until after the first one was done. That's what kind of rolled me over into the next film out of the blue. But there was an astronaut, a Mercury astronaut, Gordon Cooper, who is an iconic figure of my dad's generation. Like, he was the last American astronaut to go up in space alone. He orbited the planet, like, 22 times. Everybody knew Gordon Cooper. He's in the right stuff. Like, he's, you know, he was the man.

And I got. I made a request for him. I think it took him about a year, two years, whatever, to finally, you know, agree to meet with me. And I said, dad, you know, I'm gonna. Got this interview with Gordon Cooper, and normally I'd be going with him because he was in a wheelchair, and I was his nurse. I was his secretary. I was his chauffeur. I mean, we traveled together. He relied on me, and we had a great time. Like, interviewed race car drivers and Stephen Hawking a couple times and got to do some really cool stuff. But this time I took him with me, which is different. Like, this is my mission, right? And he met Gordon Cooper. And Gordon Cooper had talked about a landing incident that happened at Edwards Air force base circa 1957, and they filmed it. And then he saw the film footage of a landed disc. 1957, Edwards Air Force Base. He also had encounters a couple years earlier. Over some German American base in Germany when he was piloting a fighter jet. And he said, yeah, when we all saw these objects and there were discs shaped and they were doing these crazy maneuvers, and I saw him with my own eyes.

[B]

Gordon Cooper.

[A]

Gordon Cooper. Yes. Wow. And my dad was going.

Oh. He was like. I could see him.

[B]

Like, he was like that Larry King moment.

[A]

Yeah. He was like, oh, no. You know, and then he's like, why would this. Excuse me. Why would this guy make this story up? He's got everything to lose. Like. Like, doesn't make any sense. We're not paying him any money. Like. And I think that got my dad to. To really start to think, you know, maybe my son isn't so crazy.

[B]

How was that car ride home? Did he say anything to you?

[A]

Like, hey, well, he was. Let's put it this way, he was my biggest fan before he died.

[B]

That's awesome.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow. That's really cool.

[A]

Isn't that cool?

[B]

Shout out to Gordon Cooper. Yeah.

[A]

Backed you up. I know.

[B]

That's why.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm always curious, like, you've spoken to so many people.

[A]

Yeah. Probably too many. Yeah.

[B]

At this point.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This one, this. This interview specifically is the one too far. If there's anyone that you could speak with, you haven't spoken with, and you had five minutes of pure honesty, they couldn't lie.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Who are some people? You.

[A]

Lonnie Zamora.

[B]

Who's that?

[A]

He's a police officer who had probably one of the most well documented close Encounters of the third kind in U.S. history. It was a close encounter of the third kind. It was the case that got Dr. Hynek, who was working for the Air Force at the time, April 24, 1964, Socorro, N.M. he had eye contact with one of the aliens standing on the outside of the craft. And I've always wanted to know what kind of communication he had with it because his wife said, I don't know what happened. But ever since he had that encounter, he was never the same. And I read all the damn. I did a deep dive into that case and I was like, there's metal fragments from the landing gear. There was face to face communication with one of the aliens. The Air Force stepped in and they were like, it had already leaked out at that point, so they couldn't, like, you know, put the lid on it, but they. They put significant pressure on him to not talk about the beans on the ground. Because it's one thing, like, you have a Tic Tac shaped object that's Unexplainable, Right.

[B]

Yeah. Aircraft, whatever.

[A]

When you got beans on the ground. And you could say, like, oh, well, that was a, you know, that was an experimental, you know, whatever. Not when there's an alien standing next to it. So they did every. The Air Force did everything they could to get him to not talk. I know that because I talked to his co workers, I talked to his wife, I talked to his daughter, I talked to his son. Like, I investigated that case. I went to the National Archives, I went and sat with for a week at the house of the lead investigator on that case, Ray Stanford. I researched the bejesus out of that case. Yeah.

[B]

And what happened to this guy?

[A]

Which guy? He died. He died in 2008. I didn't get to him in time.

[B]

And he never spoke about it.

[A]

He did. He did a little bit. He did a little bit. Yeah. And there was stuff at the time about it. Yep. One of the things that I've learned is that just because the President of the United States is the President of the United States, you know, doesn't necessarily mean that they're read into the program. And the justification for that is, like, you know, we have an elected official that come and go four years at most, a. And then they're out back out and, you know, into the world. And, you know, we're not going to debrief them on 80 years of secrecy on any particular topic. There's lots of things that they need to know.

[B]

What they need to know for.

[A]

They need to know what they need to know. And how are you going to ask about something you don't know exists? It's like, so. But generally speaking, that the President has been kept out of the loop on this. Now, there are presidents, and the reason why I know that is because I interviewed them. Jimmy Carter.

We kind of ambushed him a little bit.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In what way?

[A]

It's a funny story, if you want, I'll tell you. Yeah, well, so he, you know, he just kept. I. I don't take no for an answer, so I'll just keep going until it happens. Right. And so he was. No, no, no, no. George. President Ford was a. No, no, no, no, no. That's another story. I'll tell that in a minute. We got to both of them, and it's really funny. So I said, well, damn it, if he's not gonna. If he's not gonna, you know, give me an interview, I'm gonna find out otherwise. So I looked at his schedule, and I found out he's going on Book tour. And he's gonna be at the Stacy's Bookstore in San Francisco on book tour. And I'll just go there and I'll bring my camera, and I'll just, you know, get a statement from him. Screw it, right? Go get his book signed. So.

My dad calls me. My dad was a quadriplegic, you know, he had Ms. And he calls me. He goes, hey. His voice is weak. Hey, I really need help this weekend. You know, I don't have anybody looking after me. I need you to. I said, dad, I'd love to do that, but I gotta go. I'm gonna go ambush President Carter at this book signing. Cause I'm trying to find out. Because he's seen a ufo, and evidently he made inquiries. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And my dad's like, well, maybe you can take me with you. I was like, oh, dad, take you with me? Are you kidding me? I'm. It's going to be really tough. And he goes, well, I really. I really need you, son. Like that. So I was like, all right. So I contacted my buddy Tim, who has. The guy that told me about Virginia years ago. I said, hey, my dad really needs. He's like, mate, you know, we're on a mission here, you know? I was like, look, man, my dad got to take my dad.

So we arrived, and there are very few, very, very little.

Perks for being paralyzed. But lines, airports, you know, parking, Disney World, A couple little perks. Not many, but a couple. So we get there, they bump us ahead of the line. There were people, like, lined up. I couldn't believe it. In the bookstore, it was a second on the second floor, all the way down this huge area, and then down the stairs, and then down out outside, and then down out the sidewalk, waiting for people to get a glimpse of, you know, Jimmy Carter.

And they said, there will be. You can take a picture of him, but you can't take a picture with him. We were gonna have a press conference. Cause I was gonna get him in the press conference, but that's not gonna happen anymore. Like, da, da, da. I was like, shit. Like, God, they're making this impossible. How am I supposed to do this?

[B]

This?

[A]

So we're all just, like, sitting there, waiting, and President Carter, there he is. He walks in to the room, and my dad was sitting in his wheelchair, and Carter was walking to this little table where he was going to be signing books, and people are all waiting. Jimmy Carter walks straight up to my dad. Like, just walked. Just like a magnet, just right up To. He puts his hand on my dad's knee and he just acknowledged him because they're. My dad is a quad. You know, like compassion. Right? That's who he was. And I thought to myself, okay, I know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna wire my dad with a secret microphone.

And I'm gonna have my buddy Tim push him up to the counter. We're gonna buy as many books as we can afford. So we stacked like all these books on my dad's lap. Lap, right. Kind of cruel, but you know I'm on a mission, right? I'm on a mission. Okay.

[B]

And your dad's a fan at this point.

[A]

He approves totally. So I can't. So I'm in the back. Like this is before 9 11. So now there's no way you can get away with the shit we were doing. So I'm like getting the sound like I had a remote mic and then it transmitted back to the receiver, which I had on the camera. Camera. I couldn't get the bloody headphones to work, so I couldn't. I couldn't. I couldn't tell if it was working. I'm assuming it was working, but I couldn't tell. It's really frustrating. Whatever I said, it's go time. It is what it is. So my dad's got a mic on him. He's getting wheeled up in the line. I'm at the back of the room with this little rinky dink camera and I'm like zooming in. I'm zooming in. I'm trying to get. Because the audio is going to get. I'm zooming in and I see them get together, but I can't hear anything right? So I'm assuming that everything's going. Going swell. And my dad goes, he goes, well, you know, I'm going to stall him as long as possible because he's going to have to sign five books or whatever the hell it was, right? So I was going to take it up extra time. So I'm back there and I'm filming. I'm back there filming and people kept walking in front of me and I'm like getting around these guys. Like I'm zooming in between and. You know what I mean? And they got the interaction and. And then I see Jimmy Carter. Look, dude, it was like he.

[B]

He's like.

[A]

He came into my space, like he looked right into my eyeball. I was like, holy. I just got caught and I reacted by. I pulled the rocker back and pulled the camera out like this. And I was like, like this. And I was thinking I could get jumped. I mean, the Secret Service, I don't know. I did I just do something illegal? I just like, why? You know, And I was just like, I need to get the hell out of here. Like, you know, so my dad gets whisk soft off and, and we got it. And it's basically my dad saying, you know, what about, you know, you saw a UFO sighting? My dad's voice is really weak and, and Carter's like kind of leans forward because you weren't supposed to ask him any questions. But you know, there's my. There's a quadriplegic asking him, come on. Yeah, he can't say no, right? So he's like, hey.

You know, you saw, you saw a ufo, you know, and he's like, yeah, I did see a ufo. And he describes it. And then what about when you're, when you're president, you know, and, huh. And then Tim, who's British guy, he's like, when you were president, did you. Did you look into it when you were president? Like this? And he's like, yes. And that's when he scanned the room and saw me right with the camera. And he goes, yes, but there were a lot of different answers and not the right, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, I made inquiries and we weren't basically happy with what we got back. Something like that. It's in out of the blue. So, so that was interesting, you know, so, so that's how I got. So I had, I also got an interview with, with, with Gerald with Ford. And Penny Circle was his handler. And I was calling for two years, three years, every week, whatever, just keep going, you know, Persistence, right? And, and I had a roommate at the time. He was an engineer. He was older than me, me. And he goes, there's only one, one rule in this house. He goes, if I'm in that hot tub with a girl, you know, you, you stay the hell out of.

[B]

You know, it's an easy rule.

[A]

He never had a, he never had a girl in the hot tub. Like the dude's just like, oh, always wanted. But it never happened. He's in the hot tub with a girl and it's like 3 o' clock in the afternoon, right?

[B]

This is like a UFO sight.

[A]

I swear. He's in the hot tub with a girl. Girl. Petty Circle calls me. The President's ready to talk to you.

What, like now? She goes, yes, now. Holy shit. President Ford's gonna. Oh my. Oh my God.

Penny Would you mind terribly if I could just have a couple minutes to get ready for the interview? If, okay, I'll let the President know. Click. Holy shit. President Ford is gonna, you know, ah, like, so I, I, I ran out, Tom, he's in the hot tub with his girl. I swear to you, I can't make this. You can't make this up. He goes, what did I tell you about when I'm in the hot tub? I know, but President Ford, President Ford, he's called. Yes. And I needed recording devices all over the last minute. So he leaps out of the hot tub naked as a jaybird, dripping water everywhere, running through the house naked, trying to help me get, you know, the.

[B]

Girls are sitting there like, oh, my.

[A]

Gosh, this is so funny. You know, and, and, and we, we got general, because Gerald Ford helped initiate congressional hearings. The first congressional hearings right after that landing case that happened in Michigan or Ann Arbor, Michigan, and police saw it and all kinds of residents saw it. It's a crazy case. And that's when the Air Force came out, said, well, you know.

Could be swamp gas. And people were irate. Witnesses. I mean, a flying saucer landing, you're looking at a damn saucer on the dam, you know, and you're going to tell me, I saw swamp gas? Like he said that was one of his biggest regrets, Dr. Hynix, when he said swamp gas like that. But that caused the first hearings because, you know, he rattled the cage and they had hearings.

[B]

So what did Gerald Ford say when you spoke, spoke with him?

[A]

He said, yes, I did initiate the hearings. And then I said something like I wanted, well, when you were president, did you look at it? No comment on that. I can't comment on that. I was like, well, did you look into it when you, you know, basically the implication was, yeah, I initiated the hearings. You know, the explanation given was absolutely ridiculous. We deserve to know the truth. And when it comes to when I was president, I can't comment on the that.

[B]

Did you explain to him the stakes? You're like, hey, this guy just got to have a hot tub.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

With a nine. Okay. With a hot woman. You don't understand.

[A]

So funny. I mean, if people knew, like, the backstories, I have so many backstories, how it got in certain interviews, like, I could tell you, we could go on for weeks of some really funny, Like I tell people say to me, like, we've been trying for 50 years to get that witness to come forward. I said, just put me in the room with them, okay? Just get me in the room and it's like. Because I will make that magic happen. Like I said, I have a lot of deficiencies, but that's not one of them.

[B]

What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because I have a story to tell you. Fun fact, after you have a child, your testosterone naturally goes down. It's a way for you to become more empathetic and more in touch and protect your kid and stuff. And I didn't really believe that. But then I had a baby like a year ago and I started to feel it around. Like 3 o' clock would roll around and I would get more tired. I wasn't really sleeping that great because we just had a baby and I was like drinking more coffee and I started getting anxious and I was like, this is not working. I was like, should I just do trt? Like I know a lot of guys in the hit like 30, 40, they're just ripping TRT. So I was looking into it, I was like, ah, it affects your fertility. I might want to have some more kids. So I was like, all right, there must be a way I can do this that's more natural and just like support my testosterone. So I hit my buddy David who does the ads, and I was like, is there anyone that's out out there doing any of this kind of stuff? And he was like, oh, you should check out Mars Men, Mars Men. Right here is a natural testosterone booster. This is going to just basically support your testosterone using a bunch of supplements and natural ingredients that are going to make your testosterone be what it's supposed to be. Okay, don't even think about TRT because again, it can be overkill. You're going to be injecting your body and it can also shut down your body's like natural production of testosterone, but using this stuff. Tongat, Ali, shilajit, vitamin D, zinc, boron, all the natural stuff that is going to be supporting your healthy T levels and helping your stamina and giving you more energy throughout the day. And honestly, it's great. I've only been trying it for, you know, a couple weeks now and I want to do like a before and after testosterone test and see like how much more my testosterone boosted. 91 of guys reported feeling higher energy and the reviews on this are absolutely amazing. It's made in the USA third party tested and there is a 90 day money back guarantee. So there's literally no risk. You can try it for, you know, three months and if it's not for you, they will get you your money back. And for a limited time, the listeners of this program, this is a crazy deal. By the way, most brands don't do this. You're going to get 60 off for life and three free gifts. When you use the code camp at men go to mars.com that is men me n go to mars m s.com and use the code camp at checkout. And after your purchase, they're going to ask you where you heard about them. Please say that you heard about them from Camp Gagon, that we sent you there. It really helps us out. Marsman is great. It is a natural support for your testosterone. Look, you can buy all of these, you know, supplements separately, or you can just go to Marsmen and get it all in one case. Now let's get back to the show. Also, I need to know, what video did you show Logan Paul?

[A]

Oh, yeah, so that's funny.

[B]

Speaking of backstory.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was making my first UFO documentary and touched on Area 51. Because at the time in the 90s, Area 51 was all, you know, people were doing guided tours and there were certain vantage points that you can go up to. And there was a guy named Chuck Clark who really wrote this book called the UFO Area 51 in something handbook. And it was basically a guide to tourists that wanted to come explore Area 51. There were certain areas that you can go. And he had a pretty dramatic sighting of something that was exhibiting some sort of extraordinary technology. This orb thing that could shoot around in the sky and stop and this and that. And he saw it on multiple occasions. Pretty smart guy. And.

I was kind of interested, activity going on at the base. And so I was interviewing him, an ongoing friendship.

[B]

And.

[A]

One day he calls me up and he goes, hey, James, Chuck Clark here. He goes, I got something I need to show you.

I live like 12 hours away. I was like, well, what are you talking about? Can't really talk to you about it, but.

Your jaw's gonna hit the floor. I said, really? He goes, really? I'll be right there. There. Canceled all my plans. Jumped in the car, shoot out there to Rachel, Nevada, and he pops in, we go to his double wide and he pops in this VHS tape. And it was a week old maybe at the time, you know, what Logan Paul had seen apparently was like 30 years old or whatever, 26 VHS tape playing over and over and over. But what it was was two guys taking a road trip, just as many of us have done out to Little alien and Area 51 and go up to the gate and da, da, da, da. And goofing off. Listen to road music. And then all of a sudden, they're parked and they're arguing in the car, and there's something over the top of them. And this is what I saw. What I remembered was, which was unusual, was that the light source that was shooting into the car was.

It was a very fluid movement. Like it was on some sort of pendulum or something, because the shadows were kind of fluidly moving on the inside of the car. And they were kind of arguing back and forth. And I was like, that's weird. I've never seen. Like, there has to be a light source hanging from a wire or. I don't know, something smooth. Just doing this because that's what the shadows were doing on the inside. And then one of the kids is like, I'm going out. And the guy's like, no, don't get out of the car. It's over the top or something like that. And he goes out.

And there was a disc. Let's see, if the screen is this big, I'd say it's about that big in the middle. And it was a disk shape craft that was, like, kind of orangey yellow. And. And the part that really got me. And it was crystal clear. Like, it wasn't. There was no dropout. I mean, it was like this was made, like a week earlier was that.

Did kind of this. Like, it kind of was unstable, like a. Like a boat on the water. It was just kind of wobbling like this. And I was like.

I looked over at chalk and I was like, holy shit, where did you get this? And he was, like, kind of secretive about it. He's like, well, these guys came out and they were hanging out the little alien. And then they left. And then they came back all excited an hour later. And they'd filmed this thing out by the black Mailbox. And I was like, dude, you need to put me in touch with these guys. I need to get. I need. I need this video. For whatever reason, Chuck was really weird about that whole side. Like, I. And he goes, I promised them I wouldn't give. You know, I said, oh, fair enough, but you're in touch with them. Give them my number. Like, let me talk to him. Tell him I'd be willing to raise whatever, you know, he was super secretive and went on for.

At least. At least 10 years and maybe 15 years. And I asked him every year, put me in touch, blah, blah, blah. I was going to break him down some point. And Chuck goes, if you Ask me one more time, I'm never speaking to you again. And of course, I asked him one more time, and now he won't talk to me ever again. But then I found out, like, through somebody had heard me talking about it, maybe on Joe Rogan or. I don't remember which show I was on, but heard me talking about it. And they contacted me. He was like, I'm a private investigator, and I find people. He's like, you mind if I. I said, dude, have at it. Don't use my name. This guy doesn't want to talk. So he finds him. He's in the Arizona desert somewhere. And Chuck's like, yeah, I still have the VHS tape if you want to see it. You know, of course, now it's, like, almost 30 years old, and it's played by 10 million times, so it's got a lot of dropout and stuff. And so I guess I went on Logan Paul's show, and I was telling Logan about it, and Logan's like, I'm going to go see that. So I hooked him up with a private investigator. And I guess Logan's talked about it since then. Logan went with a big block of cash, and he put cameras on him and filmed what was on the screen. And at which point, I think at some point, Chuck Clark found out about that and threatened Logan, like, I'll sue the shit out of you. And, like.

And Logan's like, the tape was really broken down. There's lots of dropout. It wasn't as clear as anything that you had described, but, you know, he goes, yeah, but I did see that wobble. It was really. That was the weirdest part, was the way it wobbled. And.

I mean, I went as far as I could with it, right? But then I was out at Area 51. Just, like, maybe a year or two ago, I got invited for a conference at Las Vegas, and we're going to go do a night watch. And I was on the board of the Night watch. So I talked to the owners of the Little Alien. Connie, her name is, and she's odd. I've known her forever. And I said, connie, you remember that ufo? Oh, are you kidding me? Of course I remember that, too. Tape. We all watched it a thousand times. We watched it for decades. Like, yeah, we all talked about it. I was like. I was like, well, gosh, like, why is he being so secretive? I was like, well, there's a backstory as to how it got. You know, it's like, it's complicated because it's going to Expose, you know, I was like, yeah, but, you know, it's been. And so she's like. She goes, james, do you honestly think we're that stupid? Well, we're not going to make a digital copy of it. Do you really think we're that stupid? So I was, like, looking at her like, so they have a digital. There's a digital copy somewhere, according to her, you know, And Chuck. So Chuck. So I contacted George Knapp and I said, george, dude, you're investigating Area 51. You've been going out there for all this time. Like, I'm telling you, I saw this tape. This is really good stuff. I see UFO stuff all the time. Like, particularly if you can get the master, because apparently the master was on Beta sp that was made a copy onto vhs, like this guy that works at this TV show or TV network.

And George goes, oh, yeah, yeah, No, I did some stories on Chuck Clark. I know Chuck Clark well, blah, blah. I said, well, dude, go get it. Go after this, because I'm telling you, it's good. And he's like, oh, yeah, I will. Yeah, yeah, I will. And then, you know, a week would go by. I text, nap. Hey, are you. You know. And he's like, no, not yet. I'm really busy. Another week, another week, another week, another week, another week. And then I said. I said, george, with all due respect, buddy, I'm telling. I'm handing this to you. Like, please, you got. You know, there's information on this. Like. And he goes, you're not my fucking wife. And I love the guy. I really do. And he wasn't being mean to me, but he was like, stop acting like you're my fucking wife. Okay? Leave me alone. I'll get to it. Like, just back off. And I was like, okay. And as it. As it. As it happens, the private investigator got the name of the guy who gave it to him and has the original master. And guess what? He died, like, two weeks before we got to him. No. Yeah. So then we contacted his son because we wanted to get. There's gotta be the master, which is gonna be great, you know? And his son's like, my dad just died and you guys wanna talk about a UFO tape? Like, fuck you guys, you know? Know, how could you be so disrespectful? And I. I felt bad, of course, you know, But I was like. I was worried about it going in the trash or something. I wanted to make him aware of the fact that his dad had the master, you know, but if George had gone to him When I told him to go to him, he would have gotten the name. The guy was in Vegas and he would have probably gotten the master.

[B]

Damn. So it's like, I wish you were his wife.

[A]

It's like slip between the cracks. It's like, yeah, I know. Yeah, that's him talking about. Yeah, so. So, I don't know, man, it's frustrating. But look, the Calvine UFO shot, I waited almost 20 years for that. In fact, I probably did wait 20 years, maybe I waited longer and we got it.

[B]

So at this point, what does disclosure even look like? Right? Like, I feel like we would need some type of massive event because, you know, there's photos that come out much later. There's all this, you know, sort of circumstantial military evidence. What is, what would it, what would it take for the average person to be like, yeah, of course.

[A]

Thought about that a lot.

One of the things that we're going to do soon, very early next year, is we're going to have an event in Washington D.C. with a number of firsthand witnesses, both American and Brazilian. And we're going to have them introduce themselves at the podium, speak for a few minutes and then say.

Make a plea to the executive branch to provide immunity so they can violate their NDAs and participate in open congressional hearings, maybe on the Senate, the House or both, and give the details needed to verify the following street addresses, names, where the locations of some of the materials are.

And then it's in the hands of the executive branch. If they want to do it and they want to push for transparency, like whatever you think of the current administration, they've got the power to do it. And they talk about wanting transparency and more openness. So we're going to do that. I think there's another effort, that documentary, Age of Disclosure, that's out right now, actually it's coming out today. I think that's got more high level government and military officials in history.

Not only talking about the existence of the phenomenon, but talking about the existence of the legacy UAP program. That's incredible. Like, I mean, you got like Clapper and Rubio and Gillibrand all talking about a crash retrieval program and the President of the United States being out of the loop. I mean, that's happening like right now. That's dropping today. Yeah. So that's significant. And people can get frustrated and be like, you know, I'm so tired of hearing these stories and I need the evidence. Like, hey, we're with you here. Be patient. This is not a hundred yard dash we're running a marathon.

[B]

Do you think it'll happen 10 years?

[A]

I think it'll happen sooner. I do. I could be wrong. As someone who's been doing this for over 30 years, I've never seen this.

[B]

This is the closest you felt. We've been to disclosure.

[A]

No question. They're not going to put the genie back in the bottle. I don't think so. Wow. Yeah.

[B]

And this could be the. The right administration. Right. There's a little. A scandal pops up. Be like, hey, you know, you could move up.

Throw a little bit of this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We forget about any of these.

[A]

I don't know anything about fc, but this UFO stuff, like, wow. Yeah. So we're gonna try. And a lot of other people are trying to. There's a lot going on behind the scenes, you know? There's a lot going on. There's some. There's some stuff, man, that I hope one day I'll be able to talk about, because.

You remember that moment where I was telling you about the governor when I was pinching my leg? I've had a number of those that I can't talk about because I can't. My sources, you know, but people that I've met with that really know what they're talking about. Like, I came to them, I hunted them down, and slowly got them to meet with me. And then we go off the record and just talk about stuff, and I'm.

[B]

Like, are you signed to NDAs?

[A]

No, but I. No, no, no. They trust me. Yeah, they trust me. I mean, come on. I've been at it forever. They know who I am. Fair. And they. And there's other intel folks that say you can trust James. And it's like. Not that I'm trying to be secretive about it, because, you know, I know this. It's like, hey, man, I'm gonna take what I can get. You know what I mean? And at whatever point, I can disseminate the information. But to have the level of confirmation that I've had, had on a number of occasions, like, I went in to meet the heads of arrow recently.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I had a special badge and, like, had to get, like, full deep cavity search to get in there. And like, walking into the. To a skiff, you know, where I'm coming up to this, like, glass tube, like, door that opens on one side, and I walk in, and then. And then another one open. Going in full. Like, take all my electronics out, put.

[B]

Them in a locker room, patted down.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, dude, are you kidding me? I went through so many Metal detectors, no wires, nothing. Hell, no. And then took me into the skiff, and there I was in the skiff with the new heads of arrow people from the osi.

I swear on my life. Yeah. And I'm sitting there talking to these guys, and I'm like, you know, you gotta throw us a bone. We're not going away. Like, this is, you know. You know, that we're ultimately. I know the vast majority of UFOs can be. Can be explained in, you know, prosaic, misidentified, this, that, the other thing. I might have even thrown in swamp gas for fun.

But there's a core residual core 10 to 15% that are most probably NHI. And they didn't say no. They just sat there. And the guy looks at me and he goes, james.

He goes, I can't part my hair without the DoD's approval. John Kosklowski, the new head of Arrow, and you can quote me on that. He's like, basically saying, no matter what I find, it's above me. My hands are tied. I can't. You know, yeah, Congress put me in charge, but the DOD is controlling me.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah. And we were talking about rua, we were talking about socorro, we were talking about Virginia. Like. And they weren't just sitting there going, yeah, this is all nonsense. They were listening. They.

[B]

How long till the men in black knock on your door?

[A]

They're probably flying over me with satellites.

[B]

Do you think you're being tracked at all?

[A]

There's no question. No question.

[B]

But you've never had a direct interaction where some guy in a suit.

[A]

Well, it's really funny. I was hanging out with a bunch of FBI agents at a premiere for Disclosure a couple days ago, and we were, like, talking. I was there with.

Somebody from the New York Times, and we're talking their own suits. They're typical. Exactly like you'd expect, right?

They're all, we're from the agency. Like this. And we're all talking. Then I was like, yeah, because, you know, blah, blah, blah, we're all having drinks. Because they're off. When I was talking about, you know, X, Y and Z, and.

He goes, oh, no, no, no. We know exactly who you are. Not in a threatening way, but, like, oh, yeah, we follow. Yeah, isn't that funny? I was loud about that. Because, yeah, they're paid a damn right they're paying attention.

[B]

Wouldn't you?

[A]

Yeah. Like, yeah, hello.

[B]

Who's this guy talking to? Is he talking to our guys? Like I would want to know.

[A]

It wasn't In a threatening way. But they wouldn't be doing their job not to be paying attention to people. Yeah, for sure. I think Dan Farah has probably got more to worry about than me. I mean, if I got my hands on the definitive piece of footage, I'd have something to worry about. No question.

[B]

When you say the definitive piece of footage.

[A]

Footage of a captured alien. Footage.

Landing. That would be a problem for them. Yeah.

[B]

And that exists?

[A]

Oh, no question.

[B]

And you've spoken to people that have seen it?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Multiple people, the same piece of footage?

[A]

Different. Some. Yeah. Different. Some same. Some different.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now.

[A]

And I believe it. Yeah.

[B]

How do you know that?

[A]

You like to get my sticky little fingers on it.

[B]

How do you know that you're not being utilized?

[A]

Because I'm in the field.

[B]

And you're seeking that field.

[A]

I'm in that. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm talking to people that. Yeah. Tracking them down. I mean, Virginia, for instance, knocking on doors.

[B]

Right.

[A]

16 years now.

[B]

Do you feel like people have ever tried to utilize you? Intelligence coming across being like, hey, James, we got this thing that you would love to see. You would love to talk about this.

[A]

Ah, well.

I can't go into the specifics, but I did look at one of the Air Force Office of Special Investigations guy, and I said, if you put this out, you're gonna have a big problem. This is bullshit. That's what I said to him. And I don't think he ever put it out.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

But it was something they were gonna try to explain for an instant. Cause I interviewed the guy that originally shot the footage. I know all about it. And I was like, nah, that's not gonna bode well, is what I said.

[B]

Head, like, explanation that was.

[A]

Yeah, you're gonna basically slap these people across the face.

[B]

You're gonna do another alien costume press conference.

[A]

Don't do that.

[B]

Another swamp gas moment.

[A]

Yeah. He's like. Because they wanted my opinion. Like, what do you think? Because they knew I knew the case. Well.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah. I can't go into that because they asked me not to, but. But they showed me some footage that they dug up, and I was like, no, that's nothing to do with that.

[B]

In your follow up to Virginia.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What are some of the smoking guns you could say that's in that doc that'll come out that you're most excited for people to see.

[A]

First history, first time in history of the phenomenon that we have. Firsthand eyewitness testimony of direct communication with a captured alien in custody. And it just so happens it's the guy that's the neurosurgeon at the lead hospital where this thing was dropped off. So you have all this, like, other sightings, transport, all the stuff that's going on that all leads to the hospital. And now we have the lead, the guy that ran all three, the head of all three, you know, neurosurgeon, head of all three hospitals.

[B]

And was he. Did he do an autopsy?

[A]

No, no, no, no, that was alive.

[B]

The being was alive and he did an examination.

[A]

His partner did the examination. He just sat in the room with it for about three or four minutes face to face before the military burst in and took it.

[B]

Did he describe communication?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Telepathic?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Did he just disclose what was said?

[A]

A little bit, yeah. You talked about the fact that despite it being that the eyes, all the communication happened with the eyes, that it was an extremely advanced intelligence, far more advanced from anything on earth, and that it could read everything in his mind. Not in a bad way, but that even though he was in captivity, it had full control of the room.

[B]

Typical gray.

[A]

No, it was, you know, the people that encountered the creature on the outside, it had brown, oily skin, it was suffering in the heat, and big red eyes, little. I don't want to call them horns, like little lump protrudences on the head here. Spindly arms, spindly legs, relatively feeble. Bigger head, big eyes, slit for mouth. I don't know about. Nose. No, I don't think any ears or maybe holes or ears.

[B]

Smell.

[A]

Yes, the outside. I think the outside. But I didn't hear the smell when it was in captivity. I don't know if that was a reaction to the heat or being scared or some sort of mechanism. I really don't know. It's all speculation because, you know, when it was outside and it was scared and it was really hot, like the girls that came within 10ft of it, all three of these girls, Katya, Liliana and Valkyria, all said that it was cowering, it was frightened, it was fever people, it was suffering and it wanted help.

Yeah. And it was brown and. And it had that odor.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

But. And then we heard it from a number of other doctors as well. But, you know, there's a. It's a long story. You know, it was like there were sightings, there was captures, military blockades, there's crash sites. There's, you know, I mean, it's a big story and there are a lot of. Lot of moving pieces and a lot of. A lot of different people involved. Involved.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

It's a really good. In fact, I think it's the best. In fact, most people within the community will say this is the definitive case. This is probably the case that's going to prove that uap, we're dealing with non human intelligence.

[B]

Now. How much pressure is on this neurosurgeon to not speak?

[A]

It's a good question. I think there are a number of factors that play into that. For starters, he's working on people's brains. He's representing the hospital. There's pressure from the military. I was told on just about everybody to keep quiet about it like he was supposed to. But it's not a career enhancement move. I don't know. I'd have to find out if it was just to the whole hospital staff or him directly. I don't know.

But yeah, those issues are addressed and everybody, 99.9% of the people, whether they're civilian, fire, military or just witnesses. Like for instance, the, the girls that came into contact, the men in black, showed up at their house. In fact, that was one of the first all in on men in black reporting that I have decided to go with. And that's in moment of contact, the first version. The mother of the girls was like, yeah. Then these men in suits showed up and they were really intimidated. I'm like, oh my God, here they are again. And they really tried to offer them money. Get your daughters to say they were lying. Get them to say. And she's like, my daughters are not liars. I'm not gonna do that. You can take this briefcase of money, you can leave and go to live somewhere else. Your life out. And the mother refused to do that. And they were quite adamant, they were quite insistent, put a lot of pressure on her. And they were poking around with other witnesses and getting them to, you know, this meeting never happened. We were never here. Like that kind of thing. Yeah, it's a really great case. And what makes it such a great case, there's so many people involved and it's recent enough where the vast majority of people are still and they're of the retirement age, which makes a big incentive less to lose for people to come forward.

[B]

Right now, they described it as the devil.

[A]

Well, the girls did well, they didn't know. They had red eyes and it stank. Right, right. Religious. Well, I got military folks that said that were directly involved with the government UAP program. They were bringing direct evidence of craft unknown origin. And they were told, oh, that's devil activity. I don't want to get it away from me. Yeah. People within the government, People within the Air Force. Harry Reid told me that too. Yeah. There's a very, like, right wing, highly religious. Don't. This is all. All the devil. Get it away from me. Yeah. And they, And, And Harry Reid said he couldn't even get people. People. Sorry. He couldn't even get people to. To look at the evidence. They were like, it's demonic.

[B]

Interesting. I mean, I get that. I grew up religious and this is what my mom would describe it as, so I understand.

[A]

Oh, it's a big universe and there's a lot going on.

[B]

Do you think there's multiple competing alien races?

[A]

I have no idea.

[B]

Because this doesn't look like.

[A]

Tell you that. Different people see different things. That's. That's an okay depiction. That's not. That's an okay depiction. Depiction.

[B]

But it doesn't look like a typical. A typical gray, right?

[A]

No, it doesn't. A typical gray. I mean, the only thing that. The big eyes, the communication through the eyes, the spindly body. That's that, I'm told, right there on the right. Yeah. That one. That was done by a woman named Beto. Beto Betty Rodriguez. And that was based on firsthand eyewitnesses. She worked directly with the three girls that came within 10ft of it. And that was done in 1997. And apparently that's a really good depiction of what it looked like.

[B]

So the fact that it doesn't look like a typical gray would lead one to believe, like there's competing forces, something.

[A]

I mean, one thing, you can see different things. I mean, if you look at what Travis Walton reported, he had spendy little gray objects, but also beings that look like us.

[B]

Yeah, the Nordics is always an interesting one. Why Nordics?

[A]

I have no idea.

[B]

You've heard people describe this firsthand. I find that to be the most unique sort of strange thing that's like, yeah, aliens. Da, da, da. Also Swiss or, you know, Swedish. And it's like what? Like, yeah, you know, blue eyes.

[A]

We're getting into speculation at this point. I don't know. Yeah, I really don't. I don't know what the hell's going on. I'd like to know what's going on. And I'm coming to the point in my career where I'm probably not going to know what's going on. On. It's real. The phenomenon is real. And they're here and they're intelligent and they probably have an agenda and they're probably different races. I'm just guessing. I Don't know.

[B]

I don't know if you had to say more or less peaceful or not peaceful.

[A]

It's a good question. Yes, I would say if they were here to do us harm, we would have known it. But I did talk to a number of very high level people. Very high level level, you know, and I said, I've heard that the bigger picture. Not the big picture, because I don't think anybody has the big picture, but the bigger picture. I heard it's a little scary. And a couple of them were like.

Yeah, I could see that. So I said, well, you know, poking a little further. Like.

Scary how? Like intent. Okay, so what their intentions are to harm us? No, just the intent. And that's as far as I got. And it's an ongoing, like, I'm going to meet with those individuals and see if I can pry a little more out of them. But I got to know them a little bit to get trust right now.

[B]

So much of your career has been journalistic and sort of recounting other people's stories. Do you think at a certain point in your career you will put together more or less your thesis, your worldview? You. Do you feel like. Do you feel like you have any type of construct of like more or less like, you know, these things are coming from a different planet? Are they interdimensional?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Multiverse? Humans from the past that have evolved.

[A]

In advanced could be all the above. I just.

[B]

Multiple different things happening simultaneously.

[A]

I just don't know. The more I learn, the more I don't know and the more confused I am. It's real. They're here. That's. I put my life on it. But what their agenda is, what their origins are, I haven't got a clue. I really don't.

[B]

Using humans as slaves to mine our Earth for precious materials.

[A]

I think that anybody out there saying they know what's going on doesn't know what's going on. I don't believe it. I don't believe it. But the one thing that I did determine over the years.

And this is based on countless stories that I've heard, if they wanted to reveal themselves openly, they would just hover over the Macy's Day Parade and it would be game over. But they don't do that. When they returned Travis, they didn't take him to where they took him. They didn't take him where they found him initially. The remote, I mean, super remote mountain range. I mean, he wouldn't have made it. He would have died. I've Been there. Very remote. They dropped him off right on the outskirts. If one is going to believe the story as it happened. They dropped him off on the outskirts of town in an area that would minimize any potential of their exposure. So they did it like down in a valley. So they went down below into this little dip right on the outskirts of town near a phone box. So it's like if you are to believe that that story is true, which I do, but I don't your audience, that's fine. They cared about his well being enough to do something. I think he got in the force field coincidentally as this thing was spooling up its energies, whatever. And he got somehow exposed to that. I think it was. They helped him. I think he died maybe. And then they dropped him off a week later. They dropped him off an area that would minimize any potential exposure.

[B]

And what does that discretion indicate? The fact that they're being discreet.

[A]

They carried it out but they didn't want to expose themselves. They don't. I mean the phenomenon, sure it'll go there. Does some pretty bold moves every now and again. I mean Phoenix lights, that's a big, pretty bold move. You know a lot of people saw that thing. Yeah. And they flew over O' Hare Airport 2005 I think grounded the flights. Terminal I17, United Airlines. A disc shaped object hovered over for a couple minutes over the terminal and then when it left it punched a donut shaped hole in the clouds. Yeah. And apparently there's a photograph of it somewhere but it hasn't surfaced yet.

[B]

I mean Zimbabwe is pretty.

[A]

Zimbabwe is pretty incredible. Yeah. Very incredible. Pretty bold. Yeah. Westall 1966 Melbourne, Australia. Yep. 300 plus people.

[B]

I mean even Rendlesham Forest.

[A]

Rendlesham Forest is good. More of a military thing. That was a joint US British base.

[B]

Pretty obvious.

[A]

Housing nuclear weapons. And they were shooting beams of light into the weapon storage area. Yeah.

[B]

One of the theories that I've heard that I find interesting is that there's. They're more advanced in terms of consciousness and their understanding of how the universe sort of operates and that they're interested in bringing us into that. Right. This is sort of like Star Trek Y but there's an interest in, you know, communicating with humankind but that we're not evolved enough.

[A]

Yeah. We're barbaric in comparison. Too busy killing each other with these nukes. We're such idiots.

[B]

And they have such a concern with nukes. Like the fact that there's all like these sightings happen around nuclear testing.

[A]

We're like cavemen with nuclear weapons.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Bunch of cavemen. I mean, I interviewed this astronaut Story Musgrave, and I. I remember looking into his eyes and like, this guy is like a. He's a brain surgeon or a heart surgeon. He flies the space shuttle. I mean, he was like. He made me look like a lazy, good for nothing, like, bag of. You know, just like, I'm looking into his eyes and his eyes are these sparkly, electric. Like, the guy was just on all the time, like, looking into this. And he goes, yeah. You know, James, I just love, like, I love geography. When I'm flying the space shuttle, sometimes I just. I just look down and I just look down at Earth and I think about geography. Ah, that's going on here. And then I think about all the wars going on. How hostile we are as a race. Can't even get along with each other.

How are we going to look at an alien race? How are alien races going to look at us? And he said this. I'm going to release that interview sometime soon because it didn't make it in the phenomenon. But he just talked about the fact that as someone to observe the Earth from that perspective from space and look down and all invisible borders and all that stuff, and they were all fighting and killing each other, and we're so hostile as a race, you know, he's like, would you want to make contact with us? Because I sure damn hell wouldn't.

[B]

Well, a lot of astronauts describe that. There's a name for it. I. Fred. Exactly.

[A]

It's like that epiphany that they have.

[B]

Yeah, they, you know, will get outside of our, you know, atmosphere and look at Earth.

[A]

Edgar Mitchell talked about that.

[B]

What are we doing?

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

Like we have one tiny little planet.

[A]

They should send up all the world leaders.

Bezos. Jeff Bezos. You can do this.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Come on, baby.

[B]

Don't send Katie ride to space.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Send food.

[A]

One way ticket.

[B]

Yeah, that might work.

[A]

We're doing just fine down here.

[B]

Yes. Either that or make them all the mushrooms. Either one.

[A]

Mushrooms are good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think it's a great idea.

[B]

Every president. That's a good tea. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Having a lovely tea party. Yeah.

[B]

Five grams. Just see something, you come back, you go.

[A]

You know what? We should. We're all good. Let's dismantle the nukes. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I love you.

[B]

Oh, man. Christos, you had a question? I don't want to dispel. Christus has been dying to ask.

[A]

Okay, go for it.

[B]

Do you have a thought on whether aliens visit us when we're about to use nuclear weapons.

[A]

That's a great question, whether aliens visit us when we're about to use nuclear weapons. So I remember when we were making the phenomenon, and a really good friend of mine and fellow editor Lance Bungia, at the time, I didn't quite understand what he was doing, but he's like, james, we got all this historic sightings that are happening here. Let's get a map, and let's put the map on the wall, and we'll put pins, and we'll film it every time there's a sight in a particular area historically. And I was like, thinking to myself, oh, fucking map. Do I want map? Like, he's like, come on, man, just humor me. Let's just. So we put a map on the wall, and we were putting pins in all the different places, and we looked. Well, guess where all the pins were. They were all around Trinity Site. Trinity Site was the first detonation of atomic bomb in 1945. And is it a coincidence that all these sightings were happening all around that space when we were detonating? To me, that doesn't. And so that was sort of an organic way of.

[B]

Hmm.

[A]

You know, Then when I met with Senator Harry Reid, who's helped with Senator Inouye and Senator Stevens to launch osap, and then aatip, the UAP investigatory arm of the government.

We did an interview. It was really funny because it was a defining moment in my career where I got the former Senate Majority Leader, Harry Reid. Thank you, George Knapp. And he arrives and he was like, oh, my God, 47 minutes, you know, and he's got security, you know, people. And I remember this big dude looking at me. I wanted to get a picture with. That's a big moment for me. Harry Reid, like, holy. He's a household name.

[B]

And.

[A]

And I kind of. Kind of walked over to, you know, to Senator Reed when he first got there, and I see the guy kind of looking at me like, what are you doing? You know, I was like, oh, can I take a picture? You know, so I took a picture with him, and. And we do the interview. And then I'm like, I need a B roll shot. The two of us walk. So I was like, oh, God, Senator Reed, I know you. You know, you gotta leave. He's like, all right, we gotta be quick. We got two minutes. So I was like. I looked over my buddy Dave who's operating the camera, and I said, dave, leave the sound gear. Who cares? Let's go. We got two minutes. So I got walking the Hallway, like twice with him. And I figured, hey, I'm. I'm talk. I'm sitting there walking with Senator Reed, I'm gonna ask him a question, might as well get one in. Why didn't I ask him? Why didn't I ask him this question when the cameras were rolling earlier? I said, What? During that 10 year investigation, what was one of the more astonishing aspects of what you uncovered? And he goes, them disabling our nukes flying over extremely sensitive nuclear. I was like, holy shit. This just came from the former Senate Majority leader.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Then I thought back when I was in the edit room organically, we were putting pins in, it was all around where we detonated the first atomic bomb. Bomb. And I was like, shit, there's gotta be a correlation. There has to be. So I went back to the drawing board in the film and I contacted Richard.

He. Richard Bob Hastings, is it the guy that wrote UFOs and nukes? And I contacted him and I said, hey, I told him about the interview I just did with Senator Reid. I was like, you're not gonna believe it. We've all kind of suspected but this connection. And he's like, oh, my God. He said that? I said, yeah, so I wanna do a deep dive into these cases. And you're the leading guy, Robert Hastings. Thank you. And he goes, james, my health is really poor. Take all of my materials and have at it. Have it all. So I put together a segment in the phenomenon with all these different cases that have happened where these UFOs were. So undoubtedly there's a connection there. Undoubtedly.

[B]

Would you cooperate with the foreign government if they had a good faith attempt at disclosure? Disclosure, yeah. I would like if Russia, I mean, they're doing nuclear testing.

[A]

I was in Russia. I met with cosmonaut in Russia and Star City, Russia. I met with generals there in the 90s. And there was an open effort to want to start a dialogue with the United States. And they thought, funny enough, they thought I was Fox News because my last name is Fox. And the translator goes, just let it go. Let them think that you're red carpet holding the airplanes for U.S. police escort. Yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So this is a global cooperation to keep this suppressed. Well, because that's one. One thought, right? Why doesn't Russia come out and say, well, we've seen them. China's, you know.

[A]

You know.

I think it boils down to the technology.

[B]

We're not the only nation with retrieval.

[A]

Yeah, no question. No, no, we're not. Yeah. And I've talked to people that have Seen some of the evidence from Russia. Russia firsthand. So, you know, again, I've talked about age of disclosure. I think they're really starting to talk about the race to whoever can harness this technology first. I know it sounds crazy to view, especially if you don't even think UFOs exist. I get it. But if they do have this stuff and if they can harness this technology, that's going to be a huge, like, advantage. And so that would be one of the primary reasons for secrecy, national security people. Because we don't want the Russians to know how much progress we've made and vice versa. Whoever gets this stuff first is like, wow, rock and roll. They don't look at it like the philosophical implications. We're not alone. Isn't that beautiful? Like, group hug. Didgeridoo.

[B]

They're still on domination time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Has America successfully reverse engineered it?

[A]

Sometimes I think a little bit, and sometimes I think not. I really don't know.

[B]

Do you think Bob Lazar's testimony is as legitimate as people say?

[A]

I think that Bob Lazar believes everything he's saying, and he's an extraordinary.

Individual. I met him in the 90s when he was first coming out.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

Yeah, I was at a conference. I was in my 20s, and I saw him and I was like, bob Lazar. I'd heard about him, right? And I was like, ran over to him and I was like. I was like, Mr. Bazaar, Mr. Lazar. And I don't know what to make. This is all new to me. I was like getting kind of, you know, I like, was like, my dad thought I was crazy. And I said, I just want to thank you for coming forward. And he looked at me and he goes, I didn't have a choice. And that was it. And then that was my only time I ever met him.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah. I didn't have a choice is what he said. Wow. I had to come forward for survival, I guess. I don't know. I don't know. But it's like. There's interesting aspects, like you try to completely debunk him, and then George Knapp, who I trust implicitly. George Knapp's like, not so fast. There was this and there was that.

[B]

He was at Los Alamos.

[A]

Yes, he was at Los Alamos. We found his name in this book. There's another person that remembers him being there. It's complicated. It's complicated.

That's you talked about earlier. Like, for instance. Let's just say that. Let's say it's true. Okay, maybe, just maybe, maybe they expose him to some real stuff, and they expose him to some not so real stuff, thinking that this guy is probably the kind of guy that's going to leak this shit, this kind of guy, public. So let's just gauge the general interest of the public. Or maybe we give some reality and some, excuse me, some stuff that's not true and see what happens. Maybe that happened with him. Maybe, maybe, maybe some of the stuff is real and some of the stuff isn't real, and that's not his fault.

[B]

Right?

[A]

But what he's sharing, what he's sharing, he believes. There's no question. You meet him and you meet him and he's like. And he'll even say, I don't know. I'm not sitting here saying, I totally endorse. I mean, sure, I don't know, but it's not a quick dismiss. This guy.

[B]

Yeah. Well, James, I could speak with you all day. This is fantastic. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. This is truly, truly a pleasure. Thank you.

[A]

Thanks for having me.

[B]

Where can I see the new doc? How can I access it?

[A]

It's called Moment of Contact, New Revelations of Alien Encounters. It'll be released December 22nd on Amazon and Apple and Google Play.

And if you want to get in touch with me, I'm found on X, James C. Fox, and I try my best to respond to as many people as I can. And I always post all the links, all the information about my films. Anything relevant will be there.

[B]

And if people want to get up to speed prior to that doc dropping, watch the phenomenon.

[A]

You can watch the program. You can watch them perform free. They're on YouTube. They're all over the place. Yeah, but you can watch them for free on YouTube movies, if you don't mind watching a couple commercials.

[B]

Well, James, thank you so much. This has been truly a pleasure, and I look forward to doing it again.

[A]

Thanks.

[B]

Appreciate it. Thank you, brother. What's up, guys? Today's episode is sponsored by a little podcast called Camp Gagnon. Yeah, you might have heard of it. Okay. It's a brilliant new podcast that's been around for a few years that's, you know, basically just a host, just a guy in his 20s trying to figure out a little life. And he explores the most interesting, controversial topics from around the world. Everything from conspiracy to military to, you know, aliens to religion to history. Everything you can imagine. Okay, so go ahead and subscribe to Camp Gagnon, all right? And you can also check out History Camp, where that show and that handsome host dive into all the most interesting historical topics. And then Religion camp, where they dive into all the religion topics as well. And by supporting, subscribing, and liking the videos, you really help me chase my dreams. You. You help everyone in this studio eat, and you keep the fire burning.