← Canadian True Crime![The Huenemann / Leatherbarrow Murders [2] — Canadian True Crime cover](https://assets.pippa.io/shows/61b7653d169562084ee95064/1734720240826-ee5785bd-79b1-4b99-b7a4-104122c8ed9f.jpeg)
Loading summary
Transcript23 lines
- [00:00]
Blue Apron Advertiser
I'm done with subscriptions, streaming fitness, razors, vitamins. I've got subscriptions for everything in my life. They lock you in and half the time I can't figure out how to unsubscribe. That's why I'm so excited about the new Blue Apron. Now you can get delicious meals delivered with no subscription needed, including new pre made options. Keep the flavor, ditch the subscription. Get 20% off your first two orders with code APRON20. Terms and conditions apply. Visit blueapron.com terms for more.
- [00:30]
Progressive Insurance Advertiser
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. Canadian True Crime is a completely independent production funded mainly through advertising. You can listen to Canadian True Crime ad free and early on Amazon music included with Prime Apple podcasts, Patreon and Supercast. The podcast often has disturbing content and coarse language. It's not for everyone. Please take care when listening.
- [01:11]
Narrator/Host (Canadian True Crime Podcast)
This is the final part of a two part series pieced together from court documents and the news archives. Please respect the privacy of the people involved in this case.
- [01:23]
Casey (Casefile Podcast Host)
Foreign.
- [01:27]
Narrator/Host (Canadian True Crime Podcast)
Where we left off 18 year old Darren Huneman had been charged with the first degree murder of his mother Sharon Heunemann and grandmother Doris Leatherbarrow. Darren was a chameleon. Teachers saw him as a model student with good grades and impeccable manners. Classmates saw him as an immaculately dressed, flamboyant rich kid with a wild imagination and a flair for the dramatic. He was also known to be highly skilled at communication and manipulation. Darren Huneman was the only grandson of Doris Leatherbarrow, who lived on the lower mainland area of Vancouver where she owned a chain of women's fashion stores. Darren was in line to inherit her fortune, but he had a rock solid alibi for the murders. He was on Vancouver island the Entire Day, a 90 minute ferry ride away from the mainland, when the police uncovered evidence that he convinced his two younger classmates to carry out the murders on his behalf. They were charged with first degree murder. In this episode, Darren Heunemann and Derrick Lord testify in their own defence with conflicting versions of events and as you'll remember, the youngest of the three, David Muir, had confessed to police early on, but it wasn't permitted as evidence because it violated his charter rights. David Muir would remain tight lipped for the time being, but the situation would change later on. And then there's the aftermath, how the theatrics and shocking updates continued long after the trial, leading to a prison break, another confession and the destruction resulting from one family's refusal to believe it. And with that, it's on with the. The Crown prosecution's case was that Darren Huneman was already, quote, spoiled to death by his grandmother. But he was greedy and wanted more. He wanted his inheritance early and did not want to split it with his mother, Sharon Huneman. So he arranged for his two younger friends to kill them both and orchestrated the plan in advance. The prosecution's star witness against all three accused was Darren's former girlfriend, Amanda, who was still in protective custody. The Crown had offered her immunity, satisfied that she wasn't actively involved in the actual murders or the planning of it. Amanda was 18 years old by this point, but she reportedly looked much younger than that, plainly dressed, with no makeup and wispy blonde hair touching her shoulders. Amanda said her relationship with Darren Huneman began after he called her out of the blue. She said she was surprised because while they knew of each other from school, they'd never actually had a conversation. This was about four months before the murders. In a later interview with the Times Colonist, Amanda would reveal that although the trial described their relationship as boyfriend and girlfriend, it wasn't quite like that at the time. Amanda was 16. Her parents had recently divorced. She'd moved house and had difficulty adjusting to new schools. She was fairly vulnerable at the time, so this sudden expression of interest in her was welcome. For the first two months over the summer, she and Darrin only had phone calls. Amanda recalled him telling her she looked sweet and innocent. He said he wanted a girlfriend and needed someone who was credible and a good representative of him. They started hanging out in person just before the new school year, a little less than two months before the murders. But Amanda said she only ever saw him as a friend. There was never anything romantic or sexual between them. Amanda would tell the Times Colonist that while Darren liked to refer to her as his girlfriend, with hindsight she realised that his intent was strategic more than romantic. She firmly believed he'd decided she would be easy to manipulate and control and wanted to set her up to be his alibi. Amanda said that Darren grew increasingly controlling of her. He was wildly excited about the school play where he was playing the lead role of the cruel Roman emperor Caligula. He announced that he'd found a role for her in the play, too. Backstage, she now believed he just Wanted her close to keep tabs on her. Amanda's mother would say Darren was so much in control at the time it was scary. She described him as, quote, a 48 year old man in an 18 year old's body. He had perfect manners and was a real diplomat. At trial, Amanda testified that Darrin started telling her he wanted to have his mother and grandmother murdered for financial gain. He mentioned killing the two women in at least 50 phone calls and discussed various plans. Amanda was struck by the fact that Darren seemed to be under the tight control of both women and he seemed to hate them more than he loved them. And because of Darren's dramatic streak and tendency towards theatrics, Amanda believed it was just talking, that it would never turn into reality. She testified that he told her he'd decided on a plan that involved his mother Sharon's periodic trips to the mainland to help his grandmother Doris out in her stores. And he had hired two classmates to do it. The court heard that every second Wednesday Sharon Huneman caught the ferry from Vancouver island to to the lower mainland. She would stay with her mother Doris Leatherbarrow in Tawwassen, helping out in the stores and the warehouse. Then on the Friday night she always caught the 7pm Ferry back to Vancouver Island. But on Friday, October 5th of 1990, Sharon was late arriving home after her husband Ralph called police on the mainland. The they discovered two lifeless bodies on the floor. The forensic evidence suggested the two women suffered an extremely violent attack shortly after they arrived home from the warehouse. At about 6pm 47 year old Sharon Heunemann was found with a kitchen knife lying on her chest. Her throat had been cut and she suffered two skull fractures and a split right forehead. Her mother, Doris Leatherbarrow had a kitchen knife still embedded deep in her throat. The 69 year old also suffered a broken right jaw, a torn ear and the right side of her skull was fractured. Neither of the women had any defensive injuries. Their faces were covered up with dishcloths. The court heard that the house had been ransacked as though it was a robbery. But there were valuable items left untouched. And while the evidence suggested Sharon and Doris were ambushed right as they were about to serve dinner, there were four servings of lasagna on the bench. The Crown's case was that their two mystery guests were Darren Heunemann's two classmates. 17 year old Derek Lord, the eldest of the two was known as an oddball who was fascinated with knives and martial arts and often made violent comments. Derek came from a stable and quite close knit family, although he'd moved house quite a bit because of his father's employment and they had a somewhat strained relationship. Then there was the youngest, 16 year old David Muir, a baby faced flute player who was on the honour roll at school with a superior iq. David grew up in a stable upper middle class family and was known to be calm and not easily excited. He also had a fascination with knives. The Crown's case was that Derek and David were motivated by greed. When they agreed to act as hitmen for Darren Huneman in return for his promise of money, gifts and land. They spent months helping plan the murders of his mother and grandmother and then carried them out. Amanda testified that on a Friday night in late September 1990, two days after Darren's 18th birthday, they drove to Swartz Bay Ferry Terminal. When the ferry arrived from the mainland, Derek Lord and David Mule walked off and got into Darren's car. Amanda testified they told Darren they couldn't do it because they weren't able to find the mailbox. Darren became extremely angry and ordered them to try again. Two weeks later, after he dropped them both home, Amanda asked what all that was about. Darren told her flippantly that this was the night that Derrick and David were supposed to carry out his plan. But they couldn't find his grandmother's house. So they were going to try again in two weeks time on Friday, October 5, when his mother would be returning to the mainland. It had to be done by then because his grandmother was going on a trip to Europe. Shortly after that, Amanda testified that Darren then went over the details of his plan, the same detail she eventually gave to police. In a nutshell, David Muir and Derek Lord would catch the ferry across to the mainland where they would find his grandmother's house and say they happened to be in the area. Darrin expected his mother would invite them in, at which point they would kill both women, ransack the house and catch the ferry back to Vancouver Island. Darren would be waiting to pick them up and they would all establish an alibi together. That was the plan. Amanda testified that shortly after that they ate dinner with Darren's mother and stepfather. She told him she now felt uncomfortable with Sharon knowing what he had planned for her. He told her, don't worry, it just has to be done. Two weeks later, in the early evening of Friday, October 5th of 1990, Amanda was with Darren at his home drinking tea and reading tarot cards. Earlier, he'd dropped his two classmates off to catch the 3pm Ferry. Amanda testified that around 5:30pm Darren mentioned he was wondering if it had been done yet. At about 8pm they drove to Swartz Bay Terminal. The ferry was due back on Vancouver island at about 8:30pm but it was late that day and arrived closer to 9pm Derek Lord and David Muir exited the ferry and got in Darren's car. They confirmed that this time they found the mailbox. When Darren asked them how it had gone, Derrick said, quote, what do you mean, we just killed two people? Amanda testified that as they drove off from the parking lot, David and Derek recounted how they had followed his plan exactly. They confirmed that when they arrived at Doris Leatherbarrow's home, Sharon recognized them and invited them in for a quick lasagna dinner before she caught the 7pm ferry back to Vancouver Island. Amanda told the jury that both David and Derek laughed as they recalled Sharon offering to give them a ride to the ferry as well. She wouldn't be catching any ferry that night. As the two women were in the kitchen serving dinner, the teenagers pulled out crowbars from their bag and ambushed them with repeated blows to the head. David Muir, the youngest of the two, said that he'd put, quote, a 1 inch hole in Granny's head and she went out. Derek Lord said Sharon kept asking them why they were doing it. They said they placed towels on the women's faces so they wouldn't have to look at their eyes and cut their throats with knives from the kitchen. Derek recalled having a difficult time locating Sharon's jugular vein. Amanda testified that the teenagers confirmed that when both women were dead, they stole money from their wallets and ransacked the house so it looked like a robbery. They then caught the 7pm ferry back to Vancouver island, throwing the crowbars and gloves into the ocean. The judge would point out that Amanda's account was eerily consistent with the details of the crime uncovered by the police investigation from what was happening inside the home at the time the attack began, the location of the bodies and the wounds inflicted upon them to the staging of the crime scene. It also provided an explanation for why the police had never recovered the weapon that caused the blunt force trauma and why there were no fingerprints or any other forensic evidence found that could have tied anyone to the crime scene. Amanda testified that after that, the four of them spent a little time driving around while they discussed the alibi they would provide. If questioned by the police, they would all say they were on Vancouver island the whole evening. For Darren and Amanda, this would be easy because they actually were. David and Derek would say they were shopping together in downtown Victoria until about 8pm When Darren and Amanda arrived there to meet them for dinner. They would say they left at about 9:30pm and then he dropped them home. Darren's stepfather Ralph, would confirm that Darren and Amanda did not leave Vancouver island that night. But when it came to Derek Lord and David Muir, the court heard testimony from several witnesses that directly contradicted their alibi. There was that taxi driver on the mainland who testified about picking up two teenage passengers from the ferry terminal just before 5pm he tentatively identified David Muir, the younger of the two, as one of those passengers. He said he drove them to the Tawwassen Town Centre Mall, which was only about a 10 minute walk from where Doris Leatherborough lived. Then There was the two young neighbours who saw two boys loitering about near Doris home at about 6pm shown the same photo lineup, they tentatively identified both as the two loiterers. Then at 6:45pm Someone who identified themselves as Dave booked a taxi from the mall back to Tsawwassen Ferry Terminal. The taxi driver who took the job described picking up two young men who were in a hurry to make the 7pm ferry to Vancouver Island. When Amanda finally confessed to the police and told them that the Ferry arrived almost 30 minutes late, she had no way of knowing they had already heard this specific detail from a passenger who was on that ferry. And perhaps more importantly, that passenger was a university student who positively identified seeing Derek Lord on that ferry. She knew him because she'd previously attended Mount Douglas High School and she confidently remembered the exact date because it was the busy Thanksgiving holiday weekend and of course the ferry was late. Amanda continued her testimony about the night Derek Lord and David Muir arrived back on the ferry. After they drove around for a while, talking and arranging their alibis, Darren dropped them all home. Amanda said she was last and testified that before she got out of the car, Darren told her he'd kill her he if she told anyone about what she knew. She said he spoke of, quote, stuffing me in the crawl space and often joked about how neat it would be if Dave or Derek shot me with a crossbow. He also talked of having Amanda stuffed and mounted. Amanda said she was very upset with herself for not notifying the authorities or doing anything to try and stop them from following through with the plan. But the reason she lied to police is because she was afraid of Darren's threats and of course, the fact that Derek and David said they had killed his mother and grandmother. Next, relatives, police officers and others recall details about Darren Heunemann's odd behaviour after the murders. And Darren takes to the witness box to testify in his own defence with an explanation for everything.
- [20:47]
Paige DeSorbo (Tommy John Advertiser)
G'. Day.
- [20:48]
Tony and Ryan (Boost Mobile Advertisers)
This is Tony and Ryan from Tony and Ryan. Very good name. And today we want to talk to you about Boost Mobile. You know how holiday shopping is supposed to be fun, but somehow turns into a full time job? The lines, the chaos, the last minute panic, the parking. It's a lot.
- [21:02]
Casey (Casefile Podcast Host)
Yeah.
- [21:02]
Tony and Ryan (Boost Mobile Advertisers)
This year Boost Mobile is helping you treat your wallet and yourself with a 25 unlimited plan. You get unlimited talk, text and data for just 25 bucks a month with no trade ins, no contracts and no hustle. Just bring your own phone, start saving and keep the vibes high and your wallet full. Finally, a holiday deal that doesn't require wrapping paper. Visit boostmobile.com to start saving. After 30 gigabytes, customers may experience slower speeds. Customers will pay $25 per month as long as they remain active on the Boost Unlimited plan.
- [21:35]
Bombas Comfort Line Advertiser
Thank you for calling the Bombas Comfort line. Bombas make socks, slipp tees and underwear made with the highest quality materials. Press 1 for comfort, 2 for style, 3 for donation. You chose Style. Bombas is styles for whatever you enjoy. You can run in Bombas, lounge in Bombas, dress them up, dress them down, but always give back in Bombas because with every item purchased, another is donated Bombas Comfort. Worth calling for. Go to bombas.com audio and use code audio for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O M B-A-Dot.com and use code audio.
- [22:14]
Narrator/Host (Canadian True Crime Podcast)
Shortly after the murders of Doris Leatherbarrow and Sharon Huneman, Darren Heunemann phoned his great aunt Doris, Leatherbarrow's sister. He had questions about his grandmother's will. He already knew she was the executor. About 18 months earlier, he had learned that he and his mother, Sharon, were in line to inherit his grandmother's entire estate, estimated to be worth about $3 million. But if both women passed away, Darren would get it all, although the bulk of the estate would not be passed to him until he turned 25. In the interim, he would receive his grandmother's cousin car, her house and its contents, as well as the proceeds of a $200,000 life insurance policy. Just four days after the murders, Darren called his great aunt to quiz her about these details. She testified that he then proceeded to talk continuously about his anticipated inheritance, estimating how much the clothes, clothing stores would be worth and what he'd like to do with his grandmother's car and jewellery. His great aunt was struck by how excited he seemed. The court also heard from police officers assigned to the case, who were surprised that after the murders happened on Friday night, Darren returned to school on Tuesday and reportedly spent time reassuring his client classmates and friends that he was totally ok. Also surprising to them was that early in the investigation, Darren told them that, quote, if you're looking for ways to break into the house, my grandmother sometimes left keys outside. Police already knew there was no evidence of forced entry and a single key had been found near the front door of the home. And Darren's demeanour at the funeral was also odd. He was described by multiple people as upbeat and cheerful. One relative noted that Darren seemed to view the occasion as less of a funeral and more of a social occasion. A. The jury heard recordings of the calls intercepted during the police's wiretap operation six weeks after the murders. The day the wiretap began, the police approached Darren's girlfriend, Amanda, and accused her of lying to them about their alibis. That same day, Darren called Derek Lord's home phone and asked his mother, Eloise, what time she saw her son arrive home that night. This is important because Derek was positively identified as a passenger on that delayed ferry that didn't arrive at the terminal on Vancouver island until almost 9pm his mother, Eloise, sounded flustered at the question. She told Darren, quote, Ah, 8:30, I think. 8:30, quarter to nine. Well, somewhere in there, she added, quote, you're asking me a question from one and a half months ago. I saw him. I don't know what time it was, though. Close to 8:30. The police then visited David Muir, the youngest of the three, and told him, quote, we know that you and Derek Lord went over to tsawwassen on the 3pm ferry and returned on the 7pm ferry. You've been positively identified. This motivated a flurry of phone calls. While there was no smoking gun evidence proving the three accused were involved in the murders, the calls definitely showed there was some concern about the developing police investigation. David Muir called Derek Lord and told him they'd been identified and he wanted to change his story. Derek Lord then called Darren Heunemann. Panicking, Darren told him to calm down and described the police as a bunch of idiots and David Muir, the most malleable boy he'd ever met. If they pushed Dave to say anything, I don't care because I saw myself pick you up and so did Amanda and so did you. If Dave was somewhere else in his own little mind, I don't know. Darren Heunemann's comments in Particular were especially ambiguous, perhaps carefully chosen. It was as if he half expected the police to be listening. After Darren was arrested, the strange behaviour continued. The court heard testimony from a friend who said Darren phoned him from prison and said he intended to attack the credibility of various witnesses by using personal history on their background. And according to two separate incarcerated people in prison with Darren, he asked them for help getting rid of a witness, his now ex girlfriend, Amanda. One of them, named Stanley, testified that Darren said he wasn't overly concerned about his two co accused, but he was concerned that Amanda, quote, knew quite a bit. Darren offered Stanley $10,000 to kill Amanda on the courthouse steps, along with any police officer escorting her. And Darren had a second offer for Stanley, an additional $30,000 if he'd help him escape from jail. The defence dismissed this claim as a flight of fancy. When Darren Heunemann took to the witness box to testify in his own defence, he denied having any discussion about getting rid of witnesses. He also denied he had anything to do with the murders of his mother and grandmother. He said he had no need to kill his grandmother for money since he only had to ask and she would give him whatever he wanted. He insisted that any such statements he may have been heard saying were taken out of context and were only made as part of his Dungeons and Dragons play. Darren would go from crying about being accused of murder as he dabbed at his eyes with a handkerchief to perfectly calm replies to questions just seconds later. According to the Times colonist, he admitted he did pick up Derek Lord and David Muir from the ferry terminal on the two dates, but denied Amanda's version of events and gave an alternative explanation. Darren testified that he thought their trips to the mainland were to rent a post office box in Point Roberts, Washington, so they could order pornographic films from America. And that's why they mentioned not finding the mailbox when he first picked them up from the ferry. It had nothing to do with his grandmother's house. He also testified that the reason he got mad at them in the car was because they were saying things in front of Amanda which he felt shouldn't be said in front of a woman. Darren Heunemann testified that on the second date, October 5th 5th, he was again doing his friends a favor by picking them up from the ferry for the same reason. He confirmed Amanda's testimony that they did discuss an alibi, but claimed it was because David and Derek didn't want their parents to know they were ordering porn movies to a P.O. box. As for why he never told the police about any of this. Darren said he was just trying to prevent his friends from getting grounded over the porn. He insisted he had no idea at the time that they were involved in the murders. But things changed about three weeks later when the police had started asking them all for their alibis. Darrin said he lied as a favour to his friends, but asked Derek Lord why he couldn't just tell police the truth about picking them up from the ferry. He testified that Derek told him that he and David Muir were the ones who had committed the murders, but they hadn't planned to. They'd only gone over there to rob his grandmother's house. But Doris Leatherbarrow and Sharon Heunemann arrived home from work and interrupted them. They panicked and killed both women, then left after taking some money and messing up the house. Darren Heunemann told the jury that, quote, derrick never even said he was sorry. He said he later spoke to David Muir, who confirmed the story was true. Darren gave two reasons why he didn't go to the police with this information. The first was that his friends threatened to lie if he did and say he had been the mastermind behind the murders. But the other reason was because he wanted to kill them both himself. Weeping in the witness box, he added, I owed it to my mum and gran. Do you know how hard it is to look into this courtroom and not see Mum and Gran sitting there? They are the people I need right now and they're not here. Darren testified that he wanted to make his friends pay for what they'd done and life in prison wasn't enough. This was a family affair. I wanted to kill them, so I agreed to go along with what they asked. He said the only person he told about any of this was Amanda, and that was only because she was always asking him why they were being so secretive about the fairies. On cross examination, the Crown pointed out that Darrin hired criminal defence lawyers for both David and Derek after they were arrested and suggested it didn't fit with his testimony about wanting to make them pay. Darren said he was scared that if he didn't protect them, they would tell the police he was the mastermind. And as for Amanda's testimony, he suggested she was scared of Derek and David or that they'd told her something other than what was true. He also suggested that Amanda was angry after he broke up with her and wasn't very nice about it. Darren Heunemann was brought into the courtroom for the joint trial of Derrick Lord and David Muir, but he refused to testify. The jury would also not be hearing From David Muir, the youngest. On the advice of his lawyer, by this point 18 years old, David was described as baby faced with red cheeks and hair in a neat side part. The Vancouver sun reported he sat still and stared straight ahead, often looking ashen faced and worried. Derek Lord, now 19, reportedly looked chipper during the trial and was often seen laughing outside court and cuddling up to his new girlfriend. But he was less chipper when he took to the witness box. Derek Lord denied having anything to do with the murders of Doris Leatherbarrow and Sharon Huneman. He frequently licked his lips and drank from a glass of water, as he testified, according to the Times colonist. And he spoke so softly that the judge asked him repeatedly to speak up. At one point, his father, William Lord, frustrated from the packed gallery, shouted, they can hear him fine back here. William was ordered out of the courtroom. Derek Lord told the jury that he never left Vancouver island that Friday and quote, the 5th of October was not a big day for me. I go downtown a lot. Derek testified that Darren Heunemann dropped him and David Muir off in downtown Victoria to go shopping later in the afternoon. They spent about two and a half hours there, and Darren returned after about 8pm with Amanda in the car. Derek could not remember a single store that they visited, and there were no witnesses to corroborate seeing him or David Muir in downtown Victoria that evening. But this first part of his testimony was at least consistent with what he first told police when they pulled up to his home in the cruiser. He'd originally told police that Darren and Amanda came to meet them for dinner and they left together at about 9:30pm but at trial there was no dinner. He testified that Darren only returned to pick them up after shopping. And while Derek originally told the police that David Muir was the first one to get dropped home at trial, he testified that he asked Darren to drive to his house first to pick up David Muir's bike. Derek Lord testified that when they arrived at his house, he went in to retrieve the bike and saw his mother, Eloise. He said he couldn't remember exactly what time it was because, quote, I'm not good with time. But he remembered asking his mother if he could stay out beyond his curfew, which was 9pm for a 17 year old on a Friday night, this was a pretty early curfew. But the implication was that he had this conversation with his mother before 9pm, which meant he couldn't have been the one seen on the late ferry. On cross examination, the Crown asked Derek why he originally told Police that Darren dropped him home last at about 10:15 or 10:30. He replied that he wasn't wearing a watch and could only give an approximation. The Crown asked, why then, after he gave this version of events to the police, did his mother, Aloise, suddenly remember that he arrived home at about 8:30pm? She changed your mind, didn't she? Derek replied that his mother only gave him the facts. He testified that Aloise did agree to a later curfew that night, so he returned to the car with David Muir's bike. The court heard that as David biked off home, Derek said he got back in the car with Darren and Amanda and they drove around for a while before returning to his home to drop him back off at around 10pm There was also no explanation about why Derek Lourd's original statement to police never mentioned a bike. And while David Muir didn't testify, it should be noted that his original statement didn't mention a bike either. They both had stated that after shopping and dinner, David Muir was dropped home first after about 9:30 and Derek Lord after that. But there was one person who corroborated Derek's story his mother, Eloise Lord, who testified that she saw her son come into the house at 8.30pm the reason she noticed the time was because he was early for his 9pm curfew. The Crown Prosecutor pointed out that Aloise didn't sound so certain on the wiretap when Darren Heunemann asked her for the time. In fact, she didn't sound certain at all. You're asking me a question from one and a half months ago. I saw him. I don't know what time it was, though. Close to 8:30. A surprise witness was called to respond. Jackie, who identified herself as a counsellor at the same school where Eloise Lord was a teacher. Jackie testified that on the day Derek Lord was arrested, the principal asked her to go in and see how his mother was doing. Jackie told Eloise, surely they have an alibi. Clearly distraught, Aloise replied, quote, no, they don't. They were together that night and are all suspects. Jackie testified that a few weeks later, at a visit before the holidays, Aloise, quote, told me she was with the boys all that night. Back in the witness box, Eloise Lord testified she couldn't remember anything she said to Jackie because she was fairly upset after her son's arrest. In closing arguments at both trials, defence lawyers for Darren Heunemann, Derek Lord and David Muir all stated their clients had nothing to do with the murders and no knowledge of the planning. Darren Heunemann's defence maintained he had no motive for the murder and he wasn't greedy. Darren had everything he could wish for. A new car, lots of friends, clothing and a loving relationship with his mum and grandma. Amanda's testimony was a lie. Derek Lord's testimony was a lie. Basically, everyone was a liar except Darren Heunemann. As for David Muir and Derek Lord, their defence lawyers stated that there was no credible evidence that they had anything to do with the alleged conspiracy to murder and no physical evidence found at the crime scene that could be linked to either of them. Amanda was described as a skilled actress and her testimony didn't have a ring of truth to it. Derek Lord's lawyer reminded the jury of his testimony that he was shopping in downtown Victoria with David Muir when the murders took place. Those neighbours and taxi drivers who placed them in Tsawwassen that evening were either mistaken about the identification or the date. And the university student who knew Derek Lord and saw him on the ferry back was also mistaken. As for Darren Heunemann's claim that he had no idea who committed the murders until David and Derek confessed to it later, their lawyers described it as ramblings. The Crown Prosecution's closing arguments included a reminder that Amanda's very detailed testimony about what Darren Heunemann told her about his plan and what Derek Lord and David Muir said about how they carried it out were consistent with the details uncovered by the investigation. The juries found all three of them guilty of the first degree murders of Doris Leatherbarrow and Sharon Huneman for carrying out the murders and helping planned them. Derek Lord and David Muir were sentenced to life in prison with no chance of parole for 10 years. The judge concluded there was nothing whatsoever that could have explained or justified what they chose to do on Darren's behalf. It appeared they were simply motivated by greed to share in his anticipated inheritance. As for Darren Heunemann, the judge referred to victim impact statements submitted by his family members that, quote, expressed wonderment by the bereaved that such a horrific killing could occur and they are left with a dreadful legacy of the nature of the death of their loved ones. When asked if he had anything to say, Darren stated, quote, whatever this jury may say, my Lord, I am not guilty of these charges. I do not feel any scorn for this court or for the jury. All I feel is the hurt that this jury should think I could do such a thing. His voice was described as breaking with emotion. As he told the judge, quote, even as you are about to take away my liberty myself, My life. I know I will also always have the memory of mum and Gran to treasure for masterminding the plan and orchestrating the logistics. Darren Heunemann was sentenced to life in prison with no chance of parole for 25 years. Because he was now convicted for the first degree murder of his mother and grandmother, he was not eligible to receive any money from their estates, including after he turned 25. The money would be held in a trust until the appeal process was over and would reportedly be given to Doris Leatherbarrow's brothers and sisters. It was at this point that the public first heard about the eight page written confession that 16 year old David Muir had given to police shortly after his arrest as part of that failed plea deal. The Times colonist spoke to one of the investigators who worked on the case who said David Muir's confession was almost identical to Amanda's testimony at trial. The investigator recalled that when David provided details about what he did that day, he spoke as though he was going on a sailing trip, respectfully referring to the victims as Mrs. Huneman and Mrs. Leatherbarrow, even as he described slitting their throats. There was no comment from David Muir's family in response to this reporting. They kept their heads down throughout the trial and never spoke to the press. But Derek Lord's family was the opposite. They were outspoken about their belief that Derek was innocent. His mother Eloise said she believed David Muir had been browbeaten by police into giving that confession. And as for Darren Heunemann's testimony, she said, quote, darren has always been a little off the wall. It's typical of him to think he could outsmart the jury. In fact, Alawi stated she believed they had all been victims of a police frame up. As for Darren Heunemann's family members, the main comment was from Doris Leatherbarrow's brother in law, John, that justice has been served by this point. Author Lisa Hobbs Burney was writing a book about the case titled Such a Good How a Pampered Son's Greed Led to Murder. Doris Leatherbarrow's brother in law John, was interviewed for the book after the trial and speculated about how the environment Darren was raised in could have fed his motives for the murders. Because Doris Leatherbarrow lived in poverty as a child, she became obsessed with building wealth at the expense of being a present mother to her only daughter Sharon. And she tried to make up for it with material possessions. John stated, quote, doris had a guilt complex to her dying day that the way she brought up she Sharon was incorrect. Sharon knew how to manipulate Doris. And all her life, Doris gave in, if reluctantly, as Doris gave. Sharon expected more. This reportedly continued into her adult life. Doris financed every house her daughter lived in and paid for the decorators. Darren was exposed to their ongoing conversations about wealth, business, finances and the latest purchases. And his mother. Sharon was a perfectionist, known to be concerned with appearances. She raised her only child to be the perfect little gentleman with impeccable manners and grooming. She controlled every aspect of Darren's life and he probably resented it. Meanwhile, Doris adored her only grandson John, described him as the fair haired boy who couldn't do anything wrong and speculated that his sister in law may have been trying to buy Darren's love the same way she'd done with her daughter. Darren came to perceive money as a primary source of power and in the end, he may have hated them both because they had all the power over him. The Crown star witness, Amanda was of course relieved to hear the verdicts. In a lengthy interview with the Times Colonist afterwards, Amanda said that she and her mum had lived in protective custody for a year and a half. Describing it as hell. She said she lived in fear and struggled to eat with continuous nightmares and anxiety attacks. She also felt intense guilt that perhaps she could have done something in advance to save the lives of Sharon Huneman and Doris Leatherbarrow. But at the time, she feared for her life and those of her family and friends. And the details of Darren's plan were so fantastical and bizarre that she feared the police wouldn't believe her if she did. Amanda said she now believed Darren chose Derek Lord and David Muir as his accomplices for similar reasons. As he chose her, he saw they had vulnerabilities that he could take advantage of. She described them both as loners, each in their own way, with no real group of friends. David Muir, the youngest of the two, looked like a nice boy, but Amanda said he was very much controlled by his parents and seemed to have a desire to break free. As for Derek Lord, she recalled him always talking of suicide and violence and he packed a knife with him at all times. Amanda stated that Darren boasted to her often about how well he could control them both. She added, I think they all wanted to be something that reality wouldn't allow them to be. When the timeline of Darren Heunemann's various activities and relationships is laid out via testimony at trial, Amanda's point comes into clearer focus. Here's how. In May of 1989, almost 18 months before the murders, Doris Leatherbarrow updates her will Darren learns how much her estate was worth and that he's in line to inherit it. The following month, he answers a newspaper ad looking for people to play Dungeons and Dragons together. He brings Derek Lord and David Muir into it. He starts trying to manipulate the fantasy game's role playing scenarios and introduces the notion of cracking his grandmother's neck. He tells the group about her wealth and his inheritance and starts talking about killing her. It's now June of 1990. Four months before the murders, Darren quits the Dungeons and Dragons group. David and Derek are now calling him Lord, Darren or Commander. That same month, he calls Amanda out of the blue, tells her she looks sweet and innocent, and he wants a girlfriend. Just a few weeks after the murder of his mother and grandmother, Darren breaks up with Amanda as suddenly as he asked her out. Then there was Ralph Heunemann, Darren's stepfather of more than 10 years, the one who believed him when he swore he had nothing to do with the murders. Ralph agreed to loan him money for legal fees and expenses. He deposited more than $300 into Darren's prison account and spent almost $1,500 on designer clothes and suits for him to wear at his various court appearances and trial. In his victim impact statement, Ralph stated he couldn't stop thinking of his wife Sharon's anguished question to her two assailants, why are you doing this? Ralph Heunemann started to have doubts about Darren's innocence during the trial, but it would be another year or so before he was prompted to speak out publicly about it. Foreign.
- [52:57]
Casey (Casefile Podcast Host)
Hi, this is Casey from the casefile podcast and today I want to talk to you about Boost Mobile. The holidays can be overwhelming. With shopping lists, budgets and the clock ticking down, Boost Mobile takes the mystery out of saving Money. With the $25 Unlimited plan, you get unlimited talk, text and data for just $25 a month with no trade ins and no hidden fees. It's simple, affordable, and keeps you connected to what matters most. Keep the phone you already love, pay less every month and take one more problem off your list. That's one case I can officially close stress free. Visit boostmobile.com to start saving after 30gb, customers may experience slower speeds. Customers will pay $25 per month as long as they remain active. On the Boost Unlimited plan, you need.
- [53:58]
Scrum Alliance Advertiser
To master skills for AI disruption and rapid change, but you don't have three days for a seminar. Take charge of your career with Scrum alliance. We deliver official Agile certifications and micro credentials that equip you with high demand professional expertise Learn the discipline of Scrum and Agile the adaptability toolkit for any role. Flexible, accessible learning make your goals attainable. Get started now@scrum alliance.org Enjoy 20% savings on micro credentials with code year end 20.
- [54:38]
Narrator/Host (Canadian True Crime Podcast)
A few months after both trials ended, a fellow incarcerated person in the same prison as Darren Heunemann reported to the authorities that he was trying to hire a hitman. Darren named his stepfather, Ralph Heunemann for withholding money he said he needed for legal fees. He was prepared to pay up to $30,000 for the hit. A police investigation concluded there was substance to the report, but there was no credible threat to Ralph Hugh Kuniman because Darren had no money to pay a hitman. He was also heard saying that he owed various people money, including Ralph, and of course he would not be getting his inheritance because a person cannot benefit from a crime they committed. A decision was made to transfer Darren from medium security Mats Qui Institution to to maximum security Kent Institution. But this information didn't come to light until almost a year later when it was reported by the Times Colonist. And it appears that this news was the last straw for Ralph Heunemann. The university economics professor gave a brief interview to the newspaper about helping Darren pay his legal fees and his doubts about his stepson's innocence during the trial. And now he was launching two lawsuits. One to recover legal fees that Darren hadn't repaid and the other for loss of financial support resulting from the death of his wife. Darren denied all of his stepfather's claims. Always known for his theatrics and dramatic flowers flair, Darren Hyunemann then launched several lawsuits of his own. Representing himself, he accused the province newspaper of libel. He launched actions to try and claim the proceeds of his grandmother's life insurance payout and part of one of his grandmother's companies that wasn't dealt with in her will. Then the Vancouver sun reported that Darren was in a car cult or the police had obtained a secret tape recording from inside the prison where Darren claimed he was involved in a secret cult operating in Victoria. He described it as a black church with rituals involving steel daggers and silver chalices. The police concluded that Darren Huneman was not in a cult. He was just a manipulative person con man. This wouldn't be the last of his theatrics or the sensational headlines related to this case. In fact, they would only ramp up. David Muir's appeal was dismissed and the Times Colonist described how the Muir family faded out of the public eye after that. But the Lord family chose to Rage against the system. And it was raged right back at them. As Derek Lord continued to protest his innocence, his parents ramped up their unwavering support, believing there had been a miscarriage of justice. After his appeal was dismissed, they applied to the Supreme Court of Canada, but it too was dismissed. A plea to the Federal Justice Minister went the same way. Derek's father criticised the police investigation and called the criminal justice system a farce. William Lord hired a private detective to prove his son wasn't involved in the murders. Then the police announced they were investigating Derek's mother, Aloise Lee Lord, for perjury in relation to her testimony that she was certain. Derek arrived home at 8:30pm there's no evidence. The perjury charge came about, but Aloise was let go from her job as a teacher. She filed a wrongful dismissal suit. Meanwhile, Darren Heunemann's appeal came with some interesting new information. Along with the usual grounds, he attempted to admit a new psychiatric assessment report as fresh evidence. It suggested Darren was suffering from an increasingly severe form of narcissistic personality disorder at the time that impaired his capacity to differentiate reality from fantasy. He was also prone to violent fantasies, which the report found provided him, quote, immediate euphoric arousal and excitement. It noted that one of those violent fantasies involved the murder of his mother and grandmother. Darren also had unusual talents in fantasy elaboration, which enabled him to enlist others in those fantasies, like David Muir and Derek Lord. Basically, he was driven insane by his extreme narcissism. But his defence said he probably didn't intend on the deaths of his mother and grandmother. The judge rejected his appeal on all grounds. A year later, in 1994, Darren Heunemann was transferred back to medium security Matskwe Penitentiary for unspecified reasons. And that's where he started hatching his next plan. Six months after Darren Heunemann was transferred back to medium security prison, he escaped. By this point, 23 years old, he worked with two fellow convicted murderers, aged 22 and 30. The three men hid in a load of cardboard that they knew would be picked up by a recycling truck. They were successfully loaded into the truck without being seen, and it left the prison. Once the truck arrived at the Abbotsford landfill sorting station, Darren and his two accomplices jumped the driver of the truck, held a knife to his throat and knocked him unconscious. They stole a pickup truck from the site and sped away. After employees immediately called police, there was a high speed chase through a rural residential neighbourhood that only ended because the stolen pickup truck ran out of road on a dead End Street. The three men were arrested on the spot and charged with escape, aggravated assault and theft. Darren Heunemann was sent back to maximum security Kent Institution. And there was public upbringing uproar about why he had been transferred to medium security in the first place. All three escapees pleaded guilty and were heard laughing when the judge described the injuries suffered by the driver of the truck they stole. They were sentenced to three years in prison, to be served concurrently with the life sentences they were already serving. Darren Heunemann's great aunt told the Times Colonist that his escape method once again showed that he's a. A very clever boy. I think he is continuing to fool people and will continue to manipulate people. Three years after that, in 1998, David Muir applied to the parole board for escorted day passes. By this point, 24 years old, was stone faced throughout the hearing, but he acknowledged his role in the murders. The board noted he wasn't able to point to the flaws in his character that enabled him to commit such a crime and rejected his application. David applied again four years later in 2002 and told the board he'd been working hard on himself and was a changed person and he was ready to talk. About October 5th of 1990, David Muir told the parole board that he and Derek Lord took the ferry over to Tawwassen, found Doris Leatherbarrow's house and waited outside for about 45 minutes. When she and her daughter arrived home, Sharon Heunemann invited them in for dinner. Once they were inside, he and Derek nodded to each other as a signal to attack. As David Muir recounted these details to the parole board, he reportedly started hyperventilating. He said he knocked Doris Leatherbarrow unconscious with the crowbar, then grabbed a kitchen knife to slit her throat. But he had to stop and swap it with a more suitable knife. I rolled Mrs. Leatherbarrow face up and I took a knife and plunged it into her throat. Part of the plan was to put cloth over their faces so we wouldn't remember what they looked like as we killed them. David Muir told the parole board that Derek Lord had hit Sharon Huneman several times, but she was still unconscious. So he went over to help and hit her two or three more times. He said Derek then stabbed her in the throat. David told the parole board that on the ferry ride home, he recalled feeling as if he was in a daze. But when Darren Hyunemann picked them up at Swartz Bay Terminal, he felt better. He said that his actions haunted him afterwards. That was why he initially confessed to the police. I feel bad about it. I think about it a lot. After his emotional confession, a tearful David Muir hugged his parents, according to the Vancouver Sun. And this time, the 28 year old also had answers for the parole board about why. Just like Amanda, he said he felt like an outsider at Mount Douglas High School. But then Darren Hyunemann drew him in to his circle of friends and acquaintances and he got caught up in Darren's fantasy world. David said that when he was chosen to carry out the murders, he felt special. He agreed to the plan because he enjoyed being a part of Darren's extravagant lifestyle and he knew all along it was wrong. But Darren spoiled him with cash and rides in his expensive of car and of course, promises of more cash, cars and land. After the murders were carried out, the parole board heard that David Muir had a clean record in jail. He had hobbies and interests, the full support of his family and was learning a trade. He was deemed not at risk to reoffend and approved for day passes. David said he was shocked and thanked the board. A year later, in 2003, David Muir was granted full parole. The police investigator who was present for his first confession 10 years earlier told the Vancouver sun he was not surprised at the decision and expected it. In the meantime, Derek Lord's parole applications had not been going so well because he continued to maintain his innocence. He therefore wouldn't take accountability for the murders. He insisted he was imprisoned for a crime he did not commit and as such, he'd not participated in any correctional programs designed to address his risk to society. Derek got into trouble in prison as well, and he'd been charged with a number of offences, from refusing to provide a urine sample to being disrespectful and abusive towards staff. He was described by the parole board as being in denial with a victim complex and was clearly awed by weapons, especially knives. He was deemed a high risk to violently reoffend and parole was rejected. Derek Lord was bitterly disappointed, especially since his younger co accused, David Muir, had been having so much more success. His mother, Eloise Lord, told the Times Colonists that she couldn't understand why David would admit to a murder that he didn't commit. Quote, he chose his way to get out of prison and it worked for him. It just isn't something for Derek. They've taken everything away from him but his integrity. The parole board noted that the Lord family's hostility toward correctional staff had created an unpredictable situation and a potential danger for officers. Derek's father William Lord's frustration with the criminal justice system had resulted in emotional outbursts, violent incidents. He had no criminal record before his son went to jail, but over the years since, he's been charged and convicted multiple times for offences including assaulting a prison guard, willfully obstructing peace officers and causing a disturbance. One family visit at the prison reportedly turned into a debacle after William flared up about prison policy. He was banned repeatedly from visiting his son in prison and convicted of criminal trespassing after an incident where he showed up at the prison anyway and refused to leave. And the Lord family have appeared in the headlines multiple times, lashing out about perceived injustice. In 2000, they picketed screenings of a TV movie about the case called Scorn, directed by Sturla Gunninson, furious about how it portrayed their son. They also announced they would be suing the CBC for broadcasting the movie. In 2006, the Lord family paid for a number of ads in newspapers in Victoria on Vancouver island, saying a Canadian Innocence Project had shown an interest in the Derek's case. William Lord said he hoped the ads would motivate retail stores in downtown Victoria to review any security video they might still have from October 5th. It had been 16 years since the murders by that point, but he hoped to recover footage of Derek shopping to prove he was not on the mainland. The Times colonist noted that at trial, Derek Lord had testified he spent two and a half hours shopping in downtown Victoria that evening, yet couldn't name a single store he had visited. The Lord family continued to be vocal supporters of their son's innocence, launching actions and putting forward what has been described as conspiracy theories involving spies and the Chinese government. They estimated they spent more than $800,000 on legal fees. They had to sell their house and eventually ran out of money. In 2017, multiple media outlets reported that according to Aloise Lord, Innocence Canada had taken on her son's case. The organisation confirmed that Derek Lord had a priority approached them, but said the matter was private and confidential. It's never been mentioned publicly again. Meanwhile, Derek Lord's parole applications were getting rejected time after time because of his continuing refusal to take responsibility for the murders. Several journalists and media pundits have suggested it's an impossible possible situation. From early on in the investigation, Derek's mother, Eloise Lord, appeared willing to do or say whatever it took to help her son with his alibi. And his father William would fight with anyone who got in their way. And perhaps the high cost they paid in their decades long quest to prove Derek's innocence compelled him to continue, insisting that he was perhaps because of the sunken cost fallacy, he felt he had no other choice. By March of 2020, Derek Lord had served 30 years in prison. He'd been approved for numerous escorted absences and work releases without incident and was married with a child. The parole board noted that he now self identifies as Metis, but found no link between this and the level of violence he perpetrated against the two victims. Derek was asked how he felt after victim impact statements were given by several relatives of Sharon Heunemann and Doris Leatherbarrow. He said, quote, it makes me feel agitated. I'm not happy about it. I'm listening to people badmouth me. The parole board noted his ongoing lack of accountability and remorse and his sense of entitlement and arrogance, adding that it has only compounded the harm he caused to the victims. But the board said their decision was about whether Derek Lord would pose an undue risk to the community. And he was by this point assessed as having a low to moderate chance of reoffending. The board pointed out he'd made significant progress in other areas, including his ability to communicate with others. He had been completely trouble free for more than seven years and rarely displayed a negative attitude. The board approved day parole in August of 2024. After 34 years in prison, 51 year old Derek Lord was granted full parole. And finally we get to Darren Heunemann. His life sentence came with no chance of parole for 25, five years. And of course, after his prison escape, he'd been sentenced to three additional years in prison to be served concurrently. When his first parole board application in 2017 was denied, relatives of Doris Leatherbarrow and Sharon Heunemann told the press they wanted Darren to stay behind bars, describing him as a dangerous, manipulative individual. Over subsequent hearings, Darren confirmed the speculation about what was behind his motive for murdering his mother and grandmother. He reportedly told the parole board that after his parents separated when he was three years old, he grew up with his mother, describing her as a very controlling woman. He said he remembered feeling a lot of pressure, pressure from her around success and appearance, and he became obsessed with money and power. Darren stated he'd been joking with friends about murdering his family members since 1988, describing it as testing the waters. He said it wasn't until the following year, 1989, that he started seriously planning the murders. Although Darren didn't provide much more detail than this, his comments effectively confirmed Amanda's speculation that he'd been playing a long game and he'd chosen to initiate relationships with Derek Lord, David Muir and Later, Amanda herself. As part of his planning, the parole board pointed out that recent psychological and psychiatric assessments had found that the murders occurred in the specific context of Darren approaching adulthood. His personality was found to have strong narcissistic, antisocial and obsessive traits, and during his first few years in prison he was extremely narcissistic and had anger management issues. But he'd made considerable progress since the then, and it had been some 15 years since he got into a fight with a fellow incarcerated person, his last violent act. Over the last decades you have clearly done a great deal of work on yourself which has allowed you to approach your reality, but especially that of others, in a more sensitive and open manner. It appears that Darren Heunemann's theatrics had long since faded away. The board noted he had accepted all the blame for the murders of his mother and grandmother and became emotional when he expressed his remorse and regret, but there were concerns that he still internalised his anger in an effort to suppress and control it. His risk of violent recidivism was assessed as moderate to low. By 2022, Darren had changed his surname from Huneman to his biological father's surname, gowen, and after 32 years in prison and dozens of escorted temporary absences without incident, he had cascaded his way up to an application for day parole. The parole board noted that the then 50 year old had maintained a good attitude during two months of volunteer work, but he showed frustration after a few weeks by persistently asking if he should start looking for a job. Caseworkers questioned whether this stemmed from anxiety or an attempt by him at manipulation and Darren reportedly took their feedback on board. The parole board added that in the community, Darren respected all special conditions, had not required discipline, his social integration had been positive and he had been transparent with his case management team. Darren Gowen was approved for day parole and has been granted several extensions since then as recently as 2022. The parole board notes there is currently no recommendation about full parole, but his relatives have reportedly accepted. It's going to happen eventually. Thanks for listening. We'll be sure to keep you updated about that in a future future Case Updates episode. Stay tuned for a special wrap up episode coming soon and then we'll be back in late February with our new season. You can find clippings and photos from this case on the Canadian True Crime, Facebook and Instagram pages. To see the full list of resources we relied on to write this episode and anything else you want to know about the podcast, visit canadiantruecrime Ca if you found this series compelling, we'd love for you to tell a friend, post on social media or leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Canadian True Crime donates monthly to those facing injustice. This month we have donated to Women's Shelters Canada, an organization that supports over 600 shelters across the country for women and children fleeing violence. You can find a shelter near you by going to sheltersafe ca this case was researched by Hailey Gray. Audio editing was by Eric Crosby, who also voiced the disclaimer. Our senior producer is Lindsey Eldridge and Carol Weinberg is our script consultant, writing additional research. Narration and sound design was by me and the theme songs were composed by by We Talk of Dreams. I'll be back soon with part two and stay tuned for a special wrap up episode coming soon after that. See you then. Foreign.
- [81:06]
Progressive Insurance Advertiser
AI agents are everywhere, automating tasks and making decisions at machine speed. But agents make mistakes. Just one rogue agent can do big damage before you even notice. Rubrik Agent Cloud is the only platform that helps you monitor agents, set guardrails and rewind mistakes so you can unleash agents, not risk. Accelerate your AI transformation@rubrik.com that's R U B R-I K.com Hannah Berner are those.
- [81:38]
Narrator/Host (Canadian True Crime Podcast)
The cozy Tommy John pajamas you're buying?
- [81:41]
Paige DeSorbo (Tommy John Advertiser)
Paige desorbo they are Tommy John. And yes, I'm stocking up because they make the best holiday gifts.
- [81:48]
Narrator/Host (Canadian True Crime Podcast)
So generous.
- [81:49]
Paige DeSorbo (Tommy John Advertiser)
Well, I'm a generous girly, especially when it comes to me. So I'm grabbing the softest sleepwear, comfiest underwear and fitting loungewear.
- [81:57]
Narrator/Host (Canadian True Crime Podcast)
So nothing for your bestie?
- [81:59]
Paige DeSorbo (Tommy John Advertiser)
Of course I'm getting my dad Tommy John and you of course.
- [82:03]
Narrator/Host (Canadian True Crime Podcast)
It's giving Holiday gifting made easy.
- [82:05]
Paige DeSorbo (Tommy John Advertiser)
Exactly. Cozy, comfy, everyone's happy. Gift everyone on your list, including yourself with Tommy John and get 40% off site wide right now at tommyjohn.comfort.