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Canal Street Dreams
Creating the New York We Want, Dream Baby Press, GOAT Substacks & Couples Therapy with Matt Starr
00:41:53
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- [00:00]
A
All right, welcome back, Canal Street Dreams. Another very special guest for you today, the co founder of Dream Baby Press and kind of like all things Substack, our good friend Matt Starr. Matt, welcome to the show, brother.
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B
Thank you so much for having me.
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A
Yes.
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B
How.
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A
How is your 2026 so far?
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B
It was great. I was. I was telling you, when I walked in, 2025 was tough. But I, like, woke up January 1st and it just, like, felt. Everything just felt cosmically better. And it was wonderful. Went to the gym. Everything's been great. Writing poetry again?
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A
Yeah. What's your sign?
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B
Oh, my birthday's next week. I think it's Capricorn.
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C
A Capricorn.
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A
This year's supposed to be shitty for you.
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B
Well, I hope last year was shitty for me. I hope this year's a little bit better.
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A
All the astrologers say Pisces, Gemini, Virgo, Cancer, Bounce back here.
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B
I don't really know what Capricorn means. Everybody asks.
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A
My mother is a Capricorn. My father is a Capricorn. My best friend's wife is a Capricorn. You're a Capricorn.
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B
I'm a Capricorn. Okay.
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A
You're, like, industrious. You're on it. You know, you probably are a prophylactic thinker.
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B
Like, you get in front of what is prophylactic? I remember there's like a Blink 182 song with that.
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A
Yeah. Prophylactic is to do something before something happens bad. Like if you see a bus about to run over a pigeon, you grab.
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B
Got it, Got it.
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A
Or you chase the pigeon out. That would be a prophylactic.
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B
I'll save a pigeon action.
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A
Yeah, yeah. You're a Capricorn. You're definitely like a ringleader. You, like, are in charge of things. Can be bossy. I think it's good.
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C
Capricorns are, like, they. They're the boss of the zodiac.
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B
Okay.
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A
Yeah.
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C
Yeah.
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B
I don't think I've ever been described as a boss, but I like it.
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A
Yeah, you are. I mean, you post all these events that you're in charge of and tell people where to go and do stuff.
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B
Yeah. So true. Yeah.
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C
They call Capricorn. They call it Big Daddy Saturn. So it's like. Yeah, it's just like. Like, dad energy. Like, I got this.
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B
That makes.
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C
I got you guys. I'm gonna, like, figure this out and lead everybody. Like, you can count on me. It's good.
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B
I like that.
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C
Yeah. Being a captain is great.
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B
Yeah. Shout out Rob Reiner.
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A
Yeah, definitely. But talk to us. We Want to know the origin story of Dream Baby Press. Like, how did this whole thing. Yeah.
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B
All right, so it's kind of. It's. It's a little. It's a little long.
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A
I mean, you have an hour.
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B
All right. I don't need that much time. I need two minutes long. Two minutes long. Okay. So years ago. Years ago, I was. I called myself a conceptual artist. Every. I was reinventing and every time.
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A
So you didn't have a job.
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B
Exactly, exactly. And for like a decade.
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A
And you can now cut out 10 minutes of this story of when you. You had no job but were bullshitting.
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B
Cool. Totally.
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A
You were Clandestino.
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B
Reading. That was my 20s. Never went to clean against Clintestino. No, not like the fun didn't have a job. The anxious didn't have a job. And. But I would do these projects. Sometimes I'd get paid, sometimes I wouldn't. But my. So years ago, I remade Annie hall starring seniors, 80 and 90 year olds. And it was, it was just an idea. I want. My grandmother had Alzheimer's. And the way we could. We would connect, we would watch old movies and she would remember some of the lines. I thought it was a really beautiful way to kind of maintain a relationship. Fast forward. I met my ex.
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A
I would never want to be part of a club that would have me as a member.
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B
Same. Yeah, same. Groucho Marx to Woody Allen.
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A
Yes.
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B
And I. So I met my ex. She was in theater. I told her the idea and we decided like, let's remake a classic Hollywood film with the senior community. And I thought that'd be a cool art project. So we connected to a Lenox Hill neighborhood house on the Upper east side. We remade Annie hall starring seniors and changed my life and became best friends with the 94 year old. Trip tried making docu series and TV shows for four years. Pandemic killed everything. And I was just burnt out.
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A
Have you ever considered remaking Manhattan with children? That's an inappropriate joke.
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B
I'm sorry. Yes. No, no, no, no. Toddler. You know what you wanted to do? We wanted to do. I'll tell you what we wanted to do, which I still want to make this show. We wanted to do Bollywood, Dirty Dancing. We found this incredible community in California. We wanted to do.
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A
No, I would love to see you remake Manhattan with toddlers from a Mandarin immersion school.
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C
Meow.
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A
That would be Woody Allen's dream.
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B
Yeah, so. So anyway, sooner changed my life. I was like. I was in my head. I was like. I was put on earth to tell better stories about Older people in America. That is all I thought about for four years. Pandemic killed everything. My ex and I broke up, and I was like, four. What do I do? For whatever reason, I was just drawn to start writing poetry. And then a friend was like, come perform on my roof when it opens up again. I performed and I never performed growing up. And I just clicked and I was like, oh, my God, this is so fun. Basically, every concept idea I had for films and art, it just went into poetry. And my partner who I started, my co founder, Zako, I started with. I was.
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A
I love Zach. Zach is fantastic. I run into Zach so much around the city.
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B
Really? Yeah, yeah, Zach's great. Has a new baby. I love Zach. He just came to the most recent Burger King thing, which is really sweet. And so I said to Zach, I was like. Like, I just like, I had no background in the literary scene, so I wasn't like, let's just do what we're. They're doing. That didn't really resonate with me. But what resonated, I think, with the both of us was like, it need. It needed a more punk energy. We weren't trying to recreate a punk scene, but the energy is just like you. It's just like, by any means necessary. And like, what did we want to see and bring into the world? And I was like, well, the poetry that I like is fun and it has, like a more. The energy was just different than what I was seeing. So let's just like, find the locations we want to do them in.
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A
I like that you mentioned by any means necessary, because ever since I've met you, I've always just been like, your style esthetic to me is really Leonard Bernstein at the Black Panthers, you know, fundraiser, radical.
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B
She. I posted this for my, like, in the year post, and I was like, this is going on my tombstone. Yeah.
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A
You really haven't nailed, like, Jews for Black Panthers, like, hot. Like, so fudgeing hot.
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B
I love it. I love it.
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A
It's one of my favorite books and one of my favorite esthetics. You know the book? Yeah.
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B
Oh.
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A
Oh, bro, you love this book. No, it's very up here.
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B
I read about the book. Like, everybody. I was like, I've read about the thing. I read the Wikipedia page about the thing.
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C
Ye.
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A
Yeah, it's like Capote and Wolf. It's like they're the most New York society writers, I feel. So, like, if you're into, like, kind of like downtown or New York society, like, they're the writers I feel to Read. You know, I got.
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B
I got to read more. So. So.
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A
So basically I said, you read more than me. No, don't worry about it. You read.
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B
Not in 2025. So. So I. I said to Zach, like, let's do, like, my. My poetry. It's. It's horny. It's ex. To me, it is. There's an energy. And I was like, it just didn't fit in. And I didn't feel like I fit in, per se, but maybe that was just in my head. And Zach and I were like, let's just do our own thing. So we found this gay porn shop in these Village Blue Door video. We gave the guy some shekels, and we said, look, can we do a little poetry reading? And after a few conversations, he said, Sure. 200 people showed up. And it was mostly erotic. In the beginning, we just thought I was like, I'm like a student of Brene Brown. So a lot of my poetry came from eradicating shame. And it was just like writing about the things that made me feel shame or that I couldn't say out loud. And I wanted to say out loud so that we just saw. If you read erotica in a room full of 200 people, it would just become funny, and it would just, like, eradicate the shame. And it worked. And it was all, it's not really perverted. It's just funny.
- [07:37]
A
Yeah. No. I would love to know what, like, I'm really interested in this, and I want to tell you how I found out about Dream Baby, but what do you think was, like, the shame underlying your writing?
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B
I think I just, being a boy in his 20s, like, never did therapy. I didn't even know until my ex. Ex was like, you should do therapy. And I was. That never even occurred to me. I wasn't anti. I wasn't afraid. I just. I didn't know that it was for me. And I did it. And it was like, you know, it's like dating to find the right one. And I found this one guy, and he. And he was. Had this, like, macho energy. And I just have a lot of that, like, manly energy in my life. And there was something about him where it was just very like, do this, do that. And he was very like. It was nice to have, I guess, like an alpha male just be like, to talk to. And it was nice. And it really. That was the first therapist I connected with. And I think for me, it was just having that sounding board for the first time, maybe ever. And I think, like, when I had that breakup, I had friends like, you know, you go through a breakup, it's like, read attached. Watch Brene Brown's special read Daring Gray. And I just like, I did all those things and I took him seriously and it worked. And I like, I preach Brene Brown. Like, I really believe that like communication and vulnerability is the way to get rid of shame and basically fix every issue in every relationship.
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A
It's so cool to hear the therapists people find because I also, I tried to do therapy a couple times in my 20s and like basically ran out of the office. And you know, they were both like female therapists I'd met at first and then randomly, um, it was actually Mary HK Choi put me on to a therapist and is, you know, not that identity is the thing, but gay Polish guy from the Midwest and just got me and because he was so different than me and just was able to look at my life objectively and give advice, he was perfect. Like he had no stake in my life or my identity or anything. It was like so helpful.
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B
It's so interesting to hear like, like who connects with who because in my head when I was like searching for a therapist, I was old Jewish person. That's probably, I mean that's also the stereotype. But then I was like, they're supposed.
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A
To be the best.
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B
A lot of my friends, A lot of my, A lot of my friends are girls and gays. So I assumed like speaking with a woman would be more comfortable. Speaking with an older gay man would be more comfortable. And weirdly, this like middle aged alpha male was the guy who just. It's just the energy I needed at the time. And now I just. After like a year of not having a therapist, I just found this like older woman who I love, bright pink hair, lives in New Jersey and that's the person who I've connected with. But it's funny that, like, it's just kind of the last person you would expect. Sometimes that's the person you feel the most comfortable with.
- [10:20]
A
And yeah, no, my therapist, it took probably seven years. But what he was able to do was to get me. He was just like, all the time like, Eddie, it's all right if that thing from your childhood hurt your feelings. It's like, all right if you're still sad and bummed out. Like, it's all right to feel bad for yourself. And because I was just like, nah, nah, nothing, nothing happened. Nothing happened. And it took seven years for him to just get it out of me. I was like, no, some, some stuff happened. And it. I think about it, like, every day, and it weighs me down. And interestingly, it was almost like he helped me be able to just, like, acknowledge what had happened in childhood, let it go. And then I met Natasha, and, like, I don't do therapy anymore, you know, probably to her detriment.
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C
Natasha, we do a lot of therapy together in our house without a therapist.
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B
I think couples therapy is amazing.
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C
No, I would love couples therapy. But I also think that we're so. We've both done so much therapy and very well. I don't know that it would. I think about it because we've talked about it. We're like, should we do this? Like, not in a way that, you know, like, we're just in a healthy way. And I'm like, I don't think that this will be good for our relationship, because I think we've both individually, like, maxed out. And then we're gonna start therapy. Like, we're just gonna throw too many terms out at each other.
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B
Yeah.
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C
And it's gonna get weird and messy. But we do that thing where, like, what you were speaking about, where we're just so vulnerable, and so we talk about everything so openly. Like, just our whole thing is, like, nothing should be shameful. I'm like, there. We just eliminate shame in our relationship. Right. And so that, I think, is the reason why, like, because I'm not. I haven't been in therapy since we've been together.
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A
No, I haven't. And I felt like I didn't need it.
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B
It was.
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A
It was almost like the therapist was a month behind what was happening in the home. Because we are really vulnerable, and we will just at sometimes shout or just say out loud or write an email. Like, this is what I'm struggling with personally. And we're open about it. And I think that if we had a referee, like a therapist, like a couple's therapist there to be, like, you need to do this, it would piss us off. Because we're the type that'll be like, we. I admit all of these things. I need 90 days to fix it.
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C
I also think if we had somebody witnessing some of the. That goes down, they'd be like, you guys need to break up.
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A
Like, Chris. But, like, yeah, like, Chris is a therapist. Like, it's basically Chris. Chris is basically our therapist now. He really is.
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C
We will literally go, like, we'll be here, and, like, something will happen, and we'll. We'll be like, we're never coming back from this. And then we'll get in a car and go home. And by the time we're home, we're, like, laughing. And then, like, Chris will get a voice note and we'll be like, we're good. Like, we just have bad. Yeah, like, our bad. Like, we just had to, like, say the worst things humanly imaginable possible to each other. Like, and then now we're good.
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A
Chris has seen us break up on the one on one pod probably three times.
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C
Yeah.
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A
And he does the best thing, which is he doesn't take a side. He's just like, eddie, I think this is what hurt your feelings, and this is probably what hurt Natasha's feelings. But you guys are cool and should be together because the pod is really good. Chris is the best. And we're not just saying it because.
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C
You'Re here, but, you know, you're the best.
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A
Sorry. But dream, baby. I will say this. I saw it from la and in la, I was, like, starved for anything culturally interesting. And when I saw what you guys were doing, it reminded me of the era of New York when I came up, like, oh, four to probably 2012, where everything had this, like, punk or underground, like, rap energy of just like, yo, diy. Like, we don't want anything from the establishment. Like, we want our own shit. And, like, streetwear sprang from that. Soundcloud. Rap sprang from that. Like, independent fashion sprang from that, independent writing. But I felt like there was this shift around 2012, like, once people realize you can make money on the Internet as an influencer and things like that, they didn't want their own DIY shit anymore. They wanted, like, Coca Cola beats Nike. Like, we want to get money from these big brands to then do events for the brands. And that's what I think really ruined and made New York really boring. And when I saw you coming out doing things for independent writers, like super niche writers inside of a Burger King, which is, like, the place that people would try to get a check from. I was like, yo, you're subverting everything that's whack about New York right now. And not for nothing, bro, I've been wanting to have you on the pod for a while because your shit was a big factor in me being like, I kind of want to, like, come back to New York. Honestly, it's just.
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B
It's crazy to hear that. It's like.
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A
And I called you.
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B
You.
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A
I don't know if you remember this.
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B
I definitely.
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A
I spoke to you when we were driving from our house from the fire.
- [15:05]
B
Mm. Yeah, No, I remember. It's like, it's it's touching because it's like. And you guys know, it's just like, when you do things independently, like, you just forget that people are even paying attention. And it's like, also, just. So I put it out, like, we're not sponsored by Burger King. We're barely. We're barely. We do it because Shout out Davine and Myra, the sweet women who keep saying yes to me. Like, they're the district manager and the manager, but they're. What are they called? Like, they're in charge. And Dream Baby's barely a business. Like, it's just an intense passion project. So it's like, it's so cool that you saw it from LA and it. Like, it was an inspiration because, like, it. We definitely. You know, I don't really take any checks. Like, it's. To me, it's like, it's a real. I do it because I love it. And it's the stuff that I want to see in this. It's the New York that I want. And it's like I took, like, a downtown avant garde class in, like, a New York downtown avant garde class in Indiana. And it, like, kind of broke me open to, like, learning about performance artists like Karen Finley, who. She was covering herself in Chocolate and the CBGB and the Mud Club. And it's just like, it was dirty, but everyone was happy and angry, but it was just like filmmakers were picking up instruments and playing music and people, but they didn't know how. And I just love this idea that, like, I. I never wrote poetry. Yeah. I never did anything really. I just. I had ideas. And thank God Zach was down because I think it was, like. It was very kismet that we both wanted to do this thing at the time when we did it in, like, 2021. And for us, it was just like, how can we fuck it up a little bit? And, like, how can I make poetry? How can I make. How can I put on the readings that I want to go to and, like, rap? Like, for me, it's like I'm like 20 years late to everything. Like, Sex in the City, Therapy, Drake. Like, Rom Com. Rom Com. I love Drake now. I love Drake. I know. It's like, but. But it's like I'm kind of late to everything. Late to write. Like, I never wrote. So I just started writing and I was just like, Zach was just so down. And we just said, like, where do we want to see people? And the Sbaro Penn Station. And it's like, if you go. If you live in New Jersey. Like, you grew up seeing this Sbarro Penn Station for ever. And it's just. It's on Google Maps. It's considered.
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A
It's probably the saddest restaurant.
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B
That's what they call it. They call it this. They literally called. Or it's. It's. Or they. It's described as the saddest location or restaurant in New York City. And we had, like, 200 people, and the New York Times wrote about it. And we're like, oh, my God, like, people actually want to go to this thing. And for us, it was just like, we were having so much fun. Like, it really. It was like the inner child was, like, really getting to play. And then we went to. I got obsessed with Mike Tyson, and that's how I started thinking about poetry.
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A
I remember this era. I was watching this.
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B
This was cool. So that's what I was saying earlier. I want to treat my regimen of writing poetry like Mike Tyson, how he approaches boxing and stuff. And then we found this boxing gym, and then we got, like, 500 people in a boxing gym. And then for my book lunch, we went back. Then we had a Drake celebrity impersonator, which real Jake reposted, which was, like, huge for me. And we had a marching band, and I was just like this. I grew up on the wwf, and to me, like, now it's the wwe. But, like, this was how I could. This is, like, me putting people in the ring.
- [18:29]
A
No, there's something about the events you put on that the locations are locations that only people who have been really, really sad at some point in New York have found. Like, I know I've been to these locations, like, on my own.
- [18:42]
B
They're not sexy. They're not.
- [18:43]
A
They're not.
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B
You don't go there to have a good time. You go there because you have to go. You're using the bathroom. You're actually. You just need a quick cheat bite.
- [18:50]
A
Yeah. And, like, even Otissa, who you introduced me to, is just like, she's talked about a Burger King in her memory. I don't know if you guys have done readings there that, like, something really sad. And, like, for me, it's like the Burger Kings, you're at the Sbarro, even the baths. Like, I go to these. The boxing gym. These are all places I go to alone because I have been bummed out for many years in New York. But you bring, like, the dream baby to it. And it's like, when you've been sad or you've been sad or I've Been sad. When you're in these places, you do find this, like, joy. Like, there is a light that shines through that. Like, you can't share with anyone else, but you're like, this BK Big Fish is kind of fire. Like, I love that they have onion rings at Burger King. Like, I've been really sad, and that thought will pop.
- [19:36]
C
I genuinely do love that. Yeah, you can't get a good onion ring a lot of places anymore. No, I really do with that.
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A
And when you hit rock bottom, those are the things you, like, kind of appreciate.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Like, damn, bk, they got Cajun seasoning on fries. Like, probably shouldn't kill myself.
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B
There's never.
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C
There's things to live for.
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A
Yeah.
- [19:53]
C
Yeah. Like a Wendy's Frosty.
- [19:55]
B
Well, for me, it's like fries. And it's not. It's not ironic. Like, for me, like, I was telling Natasha earlier, like, my parents worked really late, so, like, multiple times a week, we just had Burger King. So for me, it's. It's extremely nostalgic. It's actually quite meaningful. It's like, they haven't really changed. I think I saw it. Like, they haven't really changed the logo that much. And when I go there, like, it really does. Like, it is, like, for little Matt. And it's like. And it's like, it is amazing. And I've said this. Maybe I've written about it once, but, like, we just did a reading recently at the end of the year, like, a holiday reading, and we had, like, James fry, who's sold 30 million books. Candace Bushnell, who basically, we have sex in the city because of her. Jemima Kirk. And it's like all these. Mel Ottenberg, editor in chief of Interview magazine. It's like all these amazing people who I look up to and admire, and I find just, like, they create New York for me. And it's like, I look out at the crowd, and you have, like, 400, 500 people in fluorescent lighting, and it's like, you're. Nobody's too cool to be in a Burger King. And I just think that's really sweet, too. It's very. For people who haven't been. It's very unpretentious. There is. You don't go to Burger King to be like, I'm the fucking coolest person in New York. You're just like, it's. It levels the playing field. And it's like, I don't recognize half the people who come to these things. And it's like, I like that. Like, it's really, it's really normal. And it's like, really, like, there's like, a real sincerity, and, like, I really like that people come because they, like, want to be there together.
- [21:15]
A
Yeah, no, there's a sincerity. Sometimes they're like. I mean, there's the game that's being played. Sometimes there's like, very, very, like, hot personality. Celebrities on Dream Baby Press, like, people of the moment and, you know, like, they're in the press cycle. But I think there is a purity to the events and your intention, and you've never sold it for anything. You're not using it as a business. It's like, it's actually truly. There's a purity of intention to what it's doing, and I think that's why it's dope. Like, it wasn't, like, one year. It worked. Now we're going to, like, get a big brand and sell it and hollow it out, you know, like, you have your job at Substack, which is cool. It's like an adjacent job.
- [21:52]
B
So grateful for it, and I love it. And it's like, that's how we got closer, and it's like, we got to do our event together. But for me, it's like, I've always seen Dream Baby as, like, it's. It's an intense passion project, but it's my minor leagues, and it's like, it's my playground.
- [22:03]
A
I actually think it's cooler than Substack. I'll be honest. I. I think it's cooler. Like, I'm on Substack, and it's fine. Substack is, you know, like, it's becoming a business. Right. I think Dream Baby is cool because it's not really a business. It's just you and Zach.
- [22:17]
B
Yeah, it's. It's not a business. I mean, to me, they're. They're two different things. And it's like, I love Sub Sack. Like, I, like, I believe in it. I get to see it change people's lives. I get to be a small part in, like, helping not people just make money, but just, like, I get to really see that thing go off in their head where, like, they hate people. The writers and creators I've worked with, like, the Internet has just, like, it didn't work. It makes you feel bad about yourself. And then I, like, show them how to use Substack, and I'm like. And I just see it go off and like, oh, I could just do that. And I don't need to be edited or I don't need to like, think, and there's not that kind of, like, feedback loop. And that's really cool. And, like, I don't. That's not dream. That's not a thing. Dream baby will ever do it. It's like, for me, it's just, like, I get to connect with and work with, like, people I admire and find interesting. So for me, it's like, Substack's totally different where I get to, like, really help people be more creative and hopefully make money, which is, like, fucking awesome. That, like, my job is to, like, help writers I and creators I admire make money.
- [23:11]
A
Yeah, no, the thing with Substack I really like, and a lot of friends and brands will call me, like, hey, Eddie, how do I get started on how do I do this thing? And once I tell them, like, whoa, that's kind of like. That's a lot of work. How many hours do you invest in this each week? I'm like, about 20, you know, about 20. It's. It does take a lot of time. And it's not like Instagram, where you just go out and, you know, shoot it and post it, and it's up in, like, 20 minutes. Do you know? I mean, like, substack, I think the people on there are really devoting time, and it's not so easy to crack on there. So I like it. I think the kind of barrier to entry maintains, like, the quality of the content on there.
- [23:51]
B
Totally, totally. And I mean, I tell. I tell people. There's only two real, like, rules that I tell people or, like, like, best practices. It's like, write about or do what excites you, otherwise it's not going to work. And people, it's in your inbox. You can just feel it and just be consistent. And it's like, not that I'm trying to give, like, a substack, like, masterclass, but, like, those are the two things that I think, like, if you just follow the thing that you love to do, or you're not trying to, like, beat an algorithm, like, on Instagram, it's like, what's the. That's gonna, like, pop off and get me, like, whatever, play the game. But on Substack, like, yeah, everything's a game on the Internet. But, like, if you write about the thing that excites you, I do think if you follow that, like, it will work out.
- [24:33]
A
Yeah. And so you have a new position at Substack. You're like, yeah, Creative strategies.
- [24:37]
B
Creative strategist. Yeah.
- [24:38]
A
Yo, congrats, man.
- [24:39]
B
Thank you so much. Yeah, it's like, my. My mom is very happy. It's like, no, they came to the office, they saw, they, like, my mom's never seen me at a desk. And. No, it's cool. It's like, I went. I used to be a director of an art gallery in the Lower east side not far from here.
- [24:52]
A
And, like, which one? Do you mind if we ask?
- [24:54]
B
Trotter and Scholler? Yeah, it was just me, and her name is Jenna, who's so sweet. And. But my heart was not in the art world. And I just. It never really. I'm not a salesman like that. Like, if. Like, if somebody's gonna buy a piece of art, I want them to really love it. And I got approached to be on substack3, four years ago, just as a publisher, but I didn't get it at the time. It wasn't what we see it as now. And I wasn't ready. And then fast forward a few months. I reached out to the person. I was like, are you guys hiring to do events? I just. I really kind of, like fell into the literary community in New York. And I just love the idea of working with writers, which. Substack was mostly a writing platform at the time. Now we do video and all this stuff. But she said, we're actually hiring an events producer. Took. It was four months of interviews and Sophia.
- [25:44]
A
Four months.
- [25:45]
B
It was because it was over the holidays. It just took forever. But I felt like I was on Survivor. And I bought the book the Secret. Like, I knew about this book, and it's amazing. I had no idea about the power of positive thinking and manifestation, but I saw and I was. And all the, like, Mike Tyson, all these, like, Drake and all these rappers I was getting into, they kept talking about the Secret. So I was like, what the fuck is the secret? And I need the secret. So I bought the seat. I went to Barnes and Noble on the upper side, bought the secret, read the first 50 pages, which is all I needed. I just started writing down, like, this job is mine. This job is mine. I started visualizing, and it's just. You just, like, it just. It's. It's better to think positively. I realize there's no downside to the Secret. And Sophia, like, God bless her soul, who was my boss, and she said, like, you're not what we were looking for, but you're what we needed. And it was like, I'd never had anyone ever say that to me. It was the first time I felt like I really belonged at. At like a real corporate job. But it didn't feel that. Still doesn't feel like that. And it's like they.
- [26:41]
A
You guys were a really good team. Yeah.
- [26:43]
B
Yeah. No, it was. To me, she's like my. Like, I call her like my Butch Cassidy. Like, Sophia. It was like she never told me an idea was too crazy, and she just helped. She really would help. I mean, she was so good, and she would really just help me mold it and just made it better and. Yeah. So it's been, I think, almost two, three, I don't know, two years. Two years. But no, I feel very grateful. Like, if I was going to have a real job, this is it. Like, this is the. Yeah.
- [27:09]
A
So what. What is the new role?
- [27:10]
B
Just more creative. It's like, less, like, less producer, and it's really just, like, more creative with more parts of the company, which I love. Like, I get to do more political events. I get to do, like, food. I get to do celebrity. It's just. I get to just spread my wings across the company and just. Just go crazy.
- [27:29]
A
Who's the new events person?
- [27:31]
B
We don't know yet. It's just me and Kylia who are doing events. So. Yeah, we don't know.
- [27:35]
A
I like it. I'm excited.
- [27:36]
B
I'm excited. I'm really excited.
- [27:38]
A
And, yeah, it's cool when the person that had a lot of the really ambitious ideas gets to come up and, like, get promoted and now make bigger decisions. So congrats, man.
- [27:50]
B
Thank you so much. Yeah, I've never had a promotion before. It feels awesome.
- [27:53]
A
So, yeah, promoted at a job besides here, I got. I actually became the chef. That was cool.
- [27:59]
B
They don't promote conceptual artists.
- [28:01]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they don't. Yeah, no, that's. It's awesome.
- [28:04]
B
But going back to what you're saying before, because it really. It. I. I don't take it for granted, and it means a lot. And, like, even to have a second of your time while, like, run it, like, driving away from the fires, but, like, the idea that anything like, like, the events, they're my art. It's like, it is my medium outside of my poetry. So the fact that, like, it had any sort of influence on you guys wanting to move back to New York, like, it really means a lot to hear that. And it's. And it reminds me that, like, people are paying attention and, you know, you do your thing, you write, you do, like, you record the podcast, you make music, you make, like. But you're, like, focused on the thing. And I'd like to think that if you're, like, into the thing you're doing. You're not thinking about how people are going to perceive it. So it's like for me, it's like, how can I write the best poetry possible? How could I do the best events that like, are fun for me and hopefully the people involved? And it's so cool that like, you were watching from afar and it like, made an impression.
- [28:55]
A
There were a lot of really crazy moments that somehow tangentially, you were related to it. Like the first time we took the Santa photos and went to Dupars. I remember sitting at Dupars when we ate that crab dip that made everybody sick.
- [29:08]
C
Oh my God. And then you didn't. You put it on your.
- [29:10]
A
The Dream Baby. I was. I was writing the answers to the dream baby while we were there. Love, Hate. I was writing it at Dupars. It was Christmas. We took our Santa Claus photos. And then I think the fire was like a couple weeks later, maybe a month or two later. No, that was a year before.
- [29:26]
C
That was a year before. And then a year later.
- [29:30]
B
Wait, the fires were a year ago, right?
- [29:31]
A
Yeah, yeah, the fires were. No, the first time I did the Dream baby. Love, Hate. It was when we did two years ago when we did the Santa.
- [29:37]
C
2023.
- [29:38]
A
2023. And then the fires was 2025. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was crazy. I remember both of them.
- [29:46]
C
And I remember when we came back, it was like so chaotic, so hectic. Our son and I were in living in Boston at my mom's house for like, I would say three weeks while he kind of like set everything up here for us. And I think like the first night that we went out was the auction. Yeah, it was the auction. That was like the first night where we were like, okay, like our, like, we're like settled. We can like go have and enjoy like a night out in New York for the very first time. So I always think back to that night. Cause I'm like, I was like our first New York night.
- [30:17]
B
That's really sweet. That was one of the best nights of my life. And I was going through all the photos, just looking back on the year. You know, you go do your little year end review thing and there's one photo of you, like your hands are clutched and your head's back and you're cracking. But it's the two of you just like, it really. It exuded like pure joy. And I was like, that's so cool that like, I could do that for like Eddie on a Tessa. And that really, that night meant a lot to me, yeah.
- [30:40]
A
People. You never know the role you play in people's lives. But that one. We literally walked out and went home. We were like, that was the first good night we've had in, like, five months. Even though one of our homies crashed out and almost died on the floor.
- [30:54]
B
I was like, did that night just. Yeah. I did not know it. I just saw it just got hushed and somebody just went down.
- [31:00]
C
Somebody went down.
- [31:01]
A
There was just too much coding in that.
- [31:02]
C
Somebody leaned a little too hard.
- [31:04]
B
Yeah. Scared. And I'm, like, kind of puritanical. Like, I don't do drugs. Like, I just saw the eyes go back, and I was like, he's dead. Oh, he's there. He's deadly.
- [31:14]
A
He. We heard the fall. And Natasha goes, I think somebody fell. I go, oh, that's. My man.
- [31:20]
C
Made a joke because he was auctioning off the lean. And we were like, we shouldn't, like, sell. Like, that shouldn't be auctioned with, like, it's coding still in there. Like, that's crazy. We should, like. Yeah. So we were like, let's empty it out. And, like, as a joke, they were. There was, like, there was a drop. So as a joke, him and, like, the homies or whatever, they had a little bit. And when somebody went down, I was like, oh, somebody's up off that coding. And then we were like, oh, no.
- [31:45]
A
Oh, no.
- [31:46]
B
I was like, oh, no.
- [31:47]
C
Like, I was just kidding, Like.
- [31:50]
B
But, yeah, there I was. I literally thought he died.
- [31:53]
C
Yeah.
- [31:53]
A
Yeah.
- [31:53]
B
So I'm so happy that you knew him. I was happy that he's okay. But, yeah, for me, I just. I don't know what it looks. I mean, I know what drunk people. Okay. But the eyes went back, rolled back, and I was just like, this is a bad night.
- [32:06]
A
It was funny, too, because he was on that date with the big influencer, and the influencer was like, I gotta go.
- [32:11]
B
Did she run away?
- [32:13]
C
I cannot be attached to this.
- [32:15]
A
Anytime I see that person on the Internet now, I'm like, yo, you left a potentially dead man on the floor.
- [32:21]
B
I didn't even know it was a day. I. I was just like, please make sure he's okay.
- [32:25]
A
Yes, my man. He's fine.
- [32:27]
C
Just. Just always eat if you're going to. If you're going to drink some cop syrup. Eat. Eat some food.
- [32:32]
A
Yeah.
- [32:32]
C
That was his fatal mistake.
- [32:33]
A
That was incredible. Yeah, that was that. It was an insane night. It was very auctioning off used men's nicks, cityscape boxers. People were crashing out. Yeah. Otessa had Paintings no one had ever seen. It was insane.
- [32:46]
B
Saying for thousands of dollars, I'm just like, in ck, like, the hero of the night. CK Is like, one of the best performances I've ever seen in my life. CK Was the auctioneer.
- [32:56]
A
He's the best. CK Is my favorite auctioneer ever.
- [32:58]
B
Oh, my God. My only auctioneer, but also my favorite. His energy is like.
- [33:02]
C
It's incredible. How did you find ck?
- [33:04]
B
I. We have a mutual friend, Victor Jeffries, who's just one of those New York characters and artists, and Victor did an opera. He, like, did sets for an opera, and we all went out after in, like, 2015. And CK just has that energy. You don't. You're not with a lot of people like that. And I'm just. So. We're out for like an hour getting drinks, and I was like, I would love to stay in touch. Fast forward 10 years later, I'm doing an auction. We need to work together. And it just. It just worked. It just. That whole night just worked.
- [33:34]
A
Also, another thing. We've talked passion project, We've talked job. Now we just have to ask, how. How do we do this hair? How is it always?
- [33:40]
B
I was actually. How's it. Does it feel?
- [33:45]
A
It's always good. Like, how. Is it a wig?
- [33:48]
B
No, no, I just saw. I was. You know, I just saw Odessa had like.
- [33:52]
A
Is it a wig?
- [33:53]
B
No, I. When I turned 30, I was like, oh, I read one thing on the Internet. I was like, you men lose their hair at 37 going like this. I was like, I'm gonna lose.
- [34:01]
A
Oh, no. You good? I think there was wig out.
- [34:03]
B
No, I'm passing. No, no, no, no. It's actually. It just is. No, I don't. I just go like this in the morning. I just, like, dry it. Yeah. And then it just stands up.
- [34:11]
C
Oh, well, you know what you're doing? You're stimulating your scalp. That's like, how. If you want your hair to grow.
- [34:18]
B
But I just shake it for like, five.
- [34:20]
C
You're stimulating your scalp. So I massage my head every day.
- [34:22]
A
Yeah, we stimulate. We use the African oils.
- [34:25]
C
You know, we doing.
- [34:26]
B
No, no, I wash it, like, once every two and a half weeks.
- [34:29]
A
I mean, are you lying to us because it's good? No, I feel like.
- [34:33]
C
Are you taking neutrophil?
- [34:34]
B
I take. No, no, no. I take. I take. I'll tell you. I take a probiotic. I take a multi men's multivitam, A D, a B, and zinc, and shout out, mom and. No, I do. I do. Like, normal, like, shampoo Conditioning. But like, I just like once every two weeks.
- [34:52]
C
Okay, cool.
- [34:52]
A
It's good hair.
- [34:54]
B
No, I feel very. Knock on what? I feel very grateful. But it's genetics, right? Like, it's genetics.
- [34:58]
C
Totally.
- [34:59]
A
Yeah. Well, yeah, I. I mean, in your case.
- [35:02]
B
Yeah, yeah. For me. For me it's genetics and I feel very grateful. Fantastic. Yeah, thank you.
- [35:06]
A
Fantastic. All right, I. I have the rapid fire for you.
- [35:09]
B
Okay.
- [35:09]
A
Those, those are my two big hard hitting journalistic questions. Was like, can you beat the wig allocation?
- [35:15]
B
I'm confident in two things and my hair is one of them, so.
- [35:19]
A
Okay. This is, this is your rapid fire. Matt Starr's favorite substacks. All right. Feed me or hung up. Oh, this is going to be hard.
- [35:30]
B
They're different.
- [35:31]
A
You just got to pick half.
- [35:35]
B
I don't.
- [35:35]
C
That's Follow your heart.
- [35:36]
A
I don't know, the more you talk, you're going to get yourself in hot water. Just pick.
- [35:40]
B
I'm going to say hung up because I discovered I agree before I worked at Substack. So I've been a longer reader of Hunter.
- [35:46]
A
Hung Up, Hung up or these links. Hung Up, Hung up or After School by Casey Lewis?
- [35:53]
B
Hung up, hung up or can I have a caveat?
- [35:57]
A
Sure.
- [35:58]
B
I don't follow a lot of celebrity culture, pop culture, but Hunter has gotten me to just like, see it different. Like, it's just. She's kind of like intellectualized and made it fun for me in a way that I kind of wrote it off for a long time.
- [36:12]
A
Matt, you're ruining the time.
- [36:14]
B
Sorry, sorry. Go, go. Sorry, sorry. Fuck.
- [36:16]
A
So hung up or Barry Weiss is the Free Press Hung up, hung up or Cassandra Unchained by Michael Burry? Hung up, hung up or it's Charlie, baby.
- [36:31]
B
Oh, it's really good, but Hung up.
- [36:33]
A
Hung up, hung up or another thing with Kareem Rama? Hung up, hung up or User Mag Taylor Lorenz? Hung up, hung up or my personal favorite, the only substack I pay to subscribe to, it's ota.
- [36:48]
B
I'll go with Otto for this. I love ota.
- [36:50]
A
We love ot. The correct answer. It's Otissa.
- [36:56]
B
Yes.
- [36:56]
A
The number one sub stack in the world.
- [36:58]
B
It's so fucking good. She's so fucking good.
- [37:00]
A
I love her the best. It's the best. Sometimes I wonder if the, like, mailer letters are real or if she's writing them.
- [37:06]
B
No, she said on her first one, she said it. She said she wrote once in a while she'll say, like, I wrote this one. Yeah, she'll say it. She'll Say it.
- [37:13]
A
This is Otto.
- [37:14]
B
Doesn't matter, because her fucking advice. What she like, she's so. Just like, whatever she feeds to the world, I'm so grateful for. Yeah, she's so good.
- [37:22]
A
That's why I think, like, from a writer's perspective, that sub sack's incredible because it's bas a novel. Like, you can tell. Ota's kind of playing every character.
- [37:31]
B
Totally.
- [37:32]
A
She's pretending to be the reader writing in an answer.
- [37:35]
B
It is. It is the same. It is. Knives out. Like, Otessa is everything. Yeah. She's every. She's. She's money heist. Like, she's everything on that. It's. She's so good.
- [37:43]
C
Genius.
- [37:44]
A
She put me on to Ota. She just had Ota's books around the house.
- [37:47]
B
I'm like, what is this person?
- [37:49]
C
I would buy, like, the signed copies. Like, I was such a fan.
- [37:52]
B
Oh, I read Homesick for Another World years ago. I got it for a birthday, and then I was like, you know, you just. You fall for a writer, you start watching the YouTube interviews. I think I watched all of them, but I found one where she talks about. And forgive me, Otessa, if I'm misquoting you, but she was talking about Bukowski, and she was like, bukowski gave me permission to write, like, beautifully and disgusting at the same time. And I was like, oh, my God, yes.
- [38:14]
A
I love that. I didn't know that Bukowski was the influence of her.
- [38:17]
B
That's cool. And I. Forgive me, but I'm almost certain she said that. And I was like, oh, my God. Like, because, you know, Bukowski represents something in culture. But I was like, I need to revisit Bukowski.
- [38:27]
A
No. For me, Bukowski was the writer that made me feel okay to write about physical abuse in the home.
- [38:34]
B
Totally. I think he gives you permission to find humor in the most horrible things. And for me, it's like that, you know, Brene Brown, but also Bukowski. He just gives you that permission. And for me, it's all about find, like, the humor is my Trojan horse in my poems.
- [38:50]
A
Yeah. People, like, they're revisionist about Bukowski right now. You know, like, the last, I'd say, 10 years, people have things to say, but for me, on the page, he's just one of the most honest writers, and you learn from the depravity. But, like, you just have to avoid watching the interviews and readings on YouTube, you know, because I did that one time, and I was like, oh, no, no, no, no.
- [39:14]
B
This.
- [39:14]
A
This is ruining. I need to just like, read the book.
- [39:16]
B
Books. I like the readings. I like hearing. I like him with the crowd. He's. He's mean. But I. It's like, like I could never tell somebody to shut the up in a reading, but I hear it and I'm like, whoa.
- [39:26]
A
I love him so much. But I watched the documentary and watched YouTube videos and the way he talks to like the women in his life, I was just like, horrible. Oh, bro, I know you love them, but this is like. I experienced my parents talking to each other. I was, I can't do this. I can't. I just gotta read. But he's. He's one of my favorites.
- [39:43]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [39:44]
A
Babe, do you read Bukowski?
- [39:45]
C
I have, yeah.
- [39:46]
A
What do you think?
- [39:47]
C
I think I appreciate it for what it is, but it doesn't speak to me in the same way that I think some things have spoken to me. Yeah, but I get it. Like hearing you guys talk about it, I'm like, I absolutely understand what you're saying. That it opens a door to be like, it's okay to have fucked up things happen to you and like, be okay speaking about it.
- [40:02]
A
Yeah.
- [40:04]
C
But yeah, weirdly, I'm so attracted to masculine energy. Weirdly, like a little too deep end for me.
- [40:10]
B
So am I. I don't think I present. I don't know what kind of masculinity I present to the world, but the stuff that I'm attracted to that like, I need to like, sustain again. It's like I'm like on. I'm like to Kobe Bryant right now, but it's like these like, like, what is it? Black Mamba. Like, I like. It's sports. It's. And it's Tyson and it's like rappers and it's like the wwe and it's like, I need that masculinity. Yeah. That masculine energy to like sustain the art right now.
- [40:35]
C
I. Yeah, I like that.
- [40:36]
B
Funny. It's like new for me, but I like it.
- [40:38]
C
I like that you're attracted to athletes.
- [40:40]
B
Very much so. But also like rom coms and Sex in the City and like Harry Potter.
- [40:44]
C
Yeah.
- [40:44]
A
So you have masculine energy.
- [40:47]
B
Thank you.
- [40:47]
C
I know.
- [40:48]
A
You reminder of the hero villain from Minions.
- [40:52]
C
The guy with the scarf.
- [40:53]
A
Yeah. Wait, the guy with the scarf because he's always orchestrating and he's in.
- [40:57]
B
Oh, that's funny.
- [40:58]
C
I haven't watched Minions.
- [41:00]
A
Oh, I love.
- [41:01]
C
I was on the other day in our house because, like, we were all sick and like running out of things to do and I like saw it and I was like, I'M leaving the room.
- [41:08]
B
I don't know what this is.
- [41:10]
C
I've never seen it.
- [41:11]
A
Like, it's a compliment.
- [41:12]
B
No, no, I take it as one.
- [41:13]
A
I know.
- [41:15]
B
I just want, like, a Leonard Cohen energy.
- [41:19]
A
Yeah, definitely Cohen Cohen.
- [41:22]
B
But he's my kind of North Star. Yeah. You.
- [41:28]
A
Post nothing.
- [41:29]
B
There's not like. I don't know, we have a lot of schlubby Jewish men, like, people out there, but he's, like, sexy.
- [41:34]
A
And I'm gonna Bernstein at the Black Panther.
- [41:36]
B
You know that. That.
- [41:38]
C
Yeah, I like that. I see that.
- [41:40]
A
It's good. It's you.
- [41:41]
B
Yeah.
- [41:42]
A
Well, dude, thank you for coming on the show.
- [41:44]
B
Thank you guys so much for having me.
- [41:45]
C
It's.
- [41:45]
B
It's such an honor. I don't really do. I think I've done one podcast, so this is. This is me being vulnerable. So thank you for.
- [41:51]
A
Do more. Do more.
- [41:52]
C
I know you're fun. Do more.