In Defense of the NYT's 'Greatest Songwriters' List

Summary

Cannonball with Wesley Morris

Episode: In Defense of the NYT's 'Greatest Songwriters' List
Date: May 7, 2026
Host: Wesley Morris
Guests: John Caramanica, Joe Coscarelli, Sasha Weiss
Main Theme:
A candid, behind-the-scenes conversation about The New York Times Magazine's controversial “30 Greatest Living American Songwriters” list—how it was made, what it aims to represent, the fights and heartbreaks involved, and what the backlash says about songwriting and cultural values today.

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Episode Overview

Wesley Morris invites fellow critics, editors, and journalists—John Caramanica, Joe Coscarelli, and editor Sasha Weiss—to reflect on their process of curating a definitive list of the 30 greatest living American songwriters. The roundtable wrestles with the impossible task of distilling American songcraft into a list, the biases and traditions that shape such endeavors, and the personal and institutional heartaches that followed.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Challenge and Philosophy of List-Making

• Consensus on the Task: The group describes the making of the list as “the greatest thing I've ever been asked to do and the worst thing I've ever been asked to do” – [03:00, Wesley].
• Conflicting Criteria: Each participant approached list-making differently—some wanted to honor the submitted ballots; others wanted to “complicate and enrich” the discussion.
  • “It’s our list. I stand by it. … But my motivation was ‘how do we complicate this? How do we make it more fun to argue over?’” — Joe [06:10]
  • “Our task was expanding and re-examining the notion of American songcraft.” — John [06:35]
• Shifting Definitions of Songwriting: The group tried to move beyond the cliché of “the heroic white man with a guitar, struggling through his emotions… accessing some kind of pure emotional truth and putting it in a rock [or] country … genre.” — John [07:38]
  • All agree: the definition of “songwriter” is broader than traditional assumptions.

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Personal Stakes and List Advocacy

• Panelists share which artists they personally pushed for during deliberations, and why:
  • Fiona Apple: Wesley championed Apple as a personal favorite—an artist combining raw emotional vulnerability and musical innovation.
  • Jay-Z: John viewed Jay-Z as an obvious pick, “If you do not think that this is one of the greatest living American songwriters, you do not listen to American song.” — John [12:53]
  • Romeo Santos: John fought for Romeo Santos, highlighting his contributions to Latin American and crossover music.
  • Outkast: Joe underscored Outkast's central role in bridging multiple traditions—“perhaps the greatest bridge between all of the songwriters on this list.” — Joe [15:13]
  • Diane Warren: Her high-impact hits were discussed even though her catalog is not as deep as others.

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Criteria for Songwriting Greatness

• Outkast vs. Fiona Apple: Breadth of catalog, influence, depth, and the question “how high are the highs?”
• Cover-ability & Karaoke: Discussion around whose songs are most frequently covered or sung at karaoke, and what that means for cultural impact. [39:03]
• Representation of Traditions: Striving for representation of different songwriting methods (performers vs. non-performers; genres; geographic roots).
  • “I think our task was expanding ... the notion of American songcraft.” — John [06:35]
  • The group wished for more non-performing songwriters and more arguments about them. [20:33]

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Regrets, ‘Heartbreaks,’ and Omitted Artists

• Extensive “regrets list” and near-misses, demonstrating the depth and pain of exclusion:
  • Erykah Badu: Wesley made repeated cases—her originality and impact in neo-soul was key; her “hooks,” humor, weirdness, and collaborative spirit lauded.
  • Billy Joel: The group had “Billy Joel regrets” and discussed the reasoning for his exclusion at length.
    • “He writes 1 or 1.5 kinds of songs really well... but you gotta draw the line somewhere.” — John [46:55]
    • “The song craft. His songs don’t sound like anybody else’s songs… these are original songs that, like, come from him.” — Wesley [48:19]
  • Others noted: REM, Lin-Manuel Miranda, James Murphy, Carly Simon, Donald Fagen (Steely Dan), Jillian Welch, Nas, Styles P, Luke Laird, Ashley Gourley, Sturgill Simpson, Scarface, and more—see [28:05-34:41].
• Madonna: Specifically called out by a listener for not being included; the panel agrees she was under-discussed and is “molecular… in everybody’s DNA.” — Wesley [50:08]
• Drake and the ‘Canadian Problem’: Long argument about nationality—can Drake (and by extension, Joni Mitchell, Neil Young) “count” as American?
  • “Drake is among the top five most important songwriters, no nationality attached, of the 21st century.” — Joe [22:09]

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The Beyonce/Kanye Dilemma

• Authorship vs. Curatorship: The panel contemplates whether highly collaborative figures like Beyoncé and Kanye West count as “songwriters” after a certain point.
  • Joe: “I have heard demos … she [Beyoncé] is Frank Sinatra plus Quincy Jones plus Kanye West…” [43:48]
  • “Kanye … is the magician who can put all that stuff together … I’m open to the argument that that’s another sort of postmodern songwriting, but that would have been expanding the definition for me.” — Joe [44:43]
  • The group sees Mariah Carey’s authorship as clearer compared to Madonna or Beyoncé.

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Reader Feedback & What Constitutes a Songwriter

• Sampled Comments:
  • “What constitutes writing a song? Are you judging lyrics, music, production…?” — Dan W., LA [37:21]
  • Billy Joel’s omission triggers passionate defenses (“There was an entire songwriting curriculum based on Billy Joel songwriting. It's literally stupid he's not on this list!” — John James [45:39])
  • Madonna’s influence and authorship are highlighted by multiple listeners.
• Panelists reflect on evolving definitions of song, noting “we may well be moving toward an era in which the very notion of song is troubled and unstable,” which excites John [56:10].
• The List as Time Capsule: The panel agrees this list is “a time capsule” for how we understand songwriting in 2026. [57:29, Joe]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If you do not think that this is one of the greatest living American songwriters, you do not listen to American song.” — John Caramanica on Jay-Z [12:53]
• “I was convinced when we walked into that room that we’d be walking out with Billy Joel being on the list.” — Wesley [47:51]
• “Madonna is an essentially molecular entity… She is in everybody’s DNA, whether you make music or do something else—construction, she’s in you.” — Wesley [50:08]
• “Our task was expanding and re-examining the notion of American songcraft.” — John [06:35]
• “It's a time capsule ... might be the last moment we consider song in this way, where we could draw the line from Stevie Wonder to Bad Bunny.” — Joe [57:29]
• “30 greatest AI songwriters. Next year, same time, same place.” — John (pointing to the changing landscape of music) [57:59]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• List creation process and principles: [01:00–08:30]
• Personal advocacy and selection dilemmas: [09:00–18:24]
• Criteria for greatness & representation: [17:46–21:29]
• Ongoing heartbreaks and omitted candidates: [28:05–34:41]
• The “Canadian Problem” (Drake, Joni Mitchell): [21:44–23:26]
• Authorship vs. curation (Beyoncé, Kanye, Madonna): [43:02–53:11]
• Discussion of reader comments and public reception: [37:12–54:49]
• Synthesis and what the list means (philosophical outro): [55:29–60:19]

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Final Reflections

• Defending and contextualizing the list: All agree that making it forced debate about “what is songwriting,” building a record that is as much about the conversation as the final product.
  • “We resisted the easiest options and put various traditions in dialogue with each other and on par with each other.” — John [56:10]
• On the future: The group predicts that the coming decades will further upend definitions of songwriting and that future generations may “annihilate our list…They’ll know what we stood for.” [57:29]
• The process was generative: “I feel like this is a great moment to have this list out in the world…It's a tension between comfort and stability.” — Wesley [58:06]

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Summary Takeaway

This episode offers a rare, vulnerable look at how cultural canonization is actually decided—full of disagreements, soul-searching, and a sincere struggle to do justice to the vastness of American songcraft. It's as much an argument for restless, evolving critical conversation as it is for any particular songwriter’s worth.

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Read the full list and join the debate at NYTimes.com.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

I'm Wesley Morris, and this is Cannonball.

[C]

Today

[B]

we did start the fire.

[D]

We did.

[B]

I love lists. I love them. They can clarify and illuminate and surprise. If it's a list of greatness, it can introduce great art to people. It can reintroduce great art to people. But you know how lists are. No matter what, they will cause a scandal. Last spring, the New York Times Magazine, where I work, they decided to compile this list of the greatest living American songwriters. And we sent out hundreds, hundreds of ballots to people in and around the music industry, to people like Bonnie Raitt, Michelle and Daggy Accello, George Clinton, Mariah Carey. And basically their job was to vote for their favorites. And when the ballots came back, it was up to us to figure out what to do with them. So, you know, for me, it was like the greatest thing I've ever been asked to do and the worst thing I've ever been asked to do. Like, what am I supposed to do when Bonnie Raitt submits her list to the greatest songwriters? Not obey her wishes. But the assignment was to take all those ballots and then use our own critical judgment to nail down a list of 30. So I, along with the reporter Joe Coscarelli, my fellow critics Danielle Smith, Jody Rosen, John Caramonica and Lindsey Zolads, we all hung out in a room sequestered and spent days talking it, shouting it, singing it all out. Last week, we published a list, the 30 greatest living American songwriters. And look, it went out into the world. Y' all had feelings. About 6,000 comments have come in so far, mostly asking, how could you possibly leave out so and so? Well, look, I mean, we only had 30 slots to play with, but, you know, we also made those choices for a reason. So I'm inviting two of the folks who were in the room with me making those decisions, John Caramonica and Joe Coscarelli, the hosts of podcast and the editor of the project, Sasha Weiss, friend of the show, to talk about the impossible task we faced and, you know, to confront a lot of the Heartbreak, yours and definitely mine. Oh, my God.

[D]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Joe Coscarelli and John Caramonica, welcome to Cannonball.

[E]

Thanks for having us.

[B]

Taking long enough.

[D]

It's go time.

[E]

First time.

[B]

I know.

[D]

First time. Not the last time.

[B]

Shall it not be your last first

[D]

time, AKA go time?

[B]

Thanks for coming back.

[C]

Thanks for having me.

[B]

Okay, just to make everything very clear about what is happening today, right now, we participated in the thinking through and deliberating of the 30 greatest living American songwriters. You were our shepherd, our adjudicator. You helped us adjudicate. And now I just thought it would be great for you to help wrangle us as we sort of think through this list, an impossible task, and also correct the record.

[C]

Maybe today we should think about it as, like, therapy, you know, I mean, I can play that role.

[D]

You want to start?

[C]

Yeah. Well, maybe we should just, like, go back to how absurd the thing was that we asked you to do in a certain way. There are a lot of songwriters in this country, and we asked you to narrow it at first to the minute number of 25. It was hard. It was really hard. And we'll get into that. But I think it's worth saying that, you know, now that it's out in the world, I think it's fair to say that you guys all stand by the list that you made. Is that fair to say?

[B]

I do. I mean, I can say that I stand by it. I also stand by it with the understanding that, I mean, and we've kind of talked about this. I accepted the mission as being helping get what was on these musicians and music industry people's ballots onto a list of 25 and then 30 of the greatest living American songwriters.

[D]

I. Oh, I did not understand. Like, that, to me, was. I did not experience this process that way.

[B]

Right. But that was one of the things that came up as we did this. Right? Like, I'm like, I just wanna make sure. I mean, not exclusively. I understood that there were decisions to be made at some point, but I really.

[E]

And wrenches to be thrown into what was happening in the initial balloting process. I thought that was actually our task was how do we complic what came back to us in a fairly straightforward and, dare I say, expected way. I stand by the list. It's not my list.

[B]

It's not my list.

[E]

It's our list. I stand by it. That's agreeing. As a pathologist, it's a list. I mean, and it's a list that I think is more interesting than it might have been because at Least my. You were there. Yeah. At least my motivation in the room was, how do we complicate this? How do we make this better and fuller and more fun to argue over?

[D]

For what it's worth, I feel like I can spiritually stand by the list, but if I want to trouble the entire process, I don't think our task was making a list. I think our task was expanding and re examining the notion of American songcraft. That, to me, was the root of all the arguments that we made in that room. To the extent that we disagreed with each other, or to the extent that we gave grace to each other, or to the extent that we agreed with each other, I feel like everybody in that room was willing to think expansively about what songwriting is. And songwriting is such a peculiar thing. It has so much baggage. It comes with attachment to certain communities, certain subgenres, and engaged fans, which I know we'll talk about later, who have an extremely fixed idea of what constitutes songcraft.

[C]

And what do you think that idea is?

[D]

I think it's a heroic white man with a guitar, struggling through his emotions, sitting in a room. No collaborators, no contact with the outside world, perhaps alcohol, perhaps drugs, accessing some kind of pure emotional truth and putting it in a rock, country or otherwise roots affiliated, genre. Folk.

[C]

Sure.

[E]

Singer, songwriter.

[D]

Yes. To me, as much as I enjoy some of that music, I do not mistake that for the totality of American song. I do not mistake that for the best examples of songcraft. And what I was grateful for in the room is that every person, in their way, with their own personal frameworks that they came in the room with, was willing to say, it's not that. It's not, not that. But it's not only that.

[C]

And maybe not only willing, but I think collectively seeing that as the task and maybe just returning to the idea of, like, what you were doing in the room and kind of how it all came together. Right. Like, let's start with people who you came into that room passionately wanting to ratify on this list. Maybe you could each, like, take a turn at one who you. Not someone who made it. Who made it as a way of kind of creating this story that you wanted to tell about an evolution about kind of multiplicity of songcraft.

[D]

Sure.

[B]

Uh, I think that it was really important for me to have, like, somebody I loved, like, you know, with my young heart and my, you know, current heart make it onto the list.

[E]

It's a nice framework.

[B]

And who I. Who just. So I would say Fiona Apple was. That was a person sure. That was such a person.

[E]

She was awesome.

[B]

My ballot on the list. I definitely wanted her to be on one of the 30 people. And I thought it would be easy to get her there.

[E]

Wasn't it? I recall it as easy.

[B]

No, no. We really talked about it.

[D]

I don't think it was.

[E]

There wasn't a ton of resistance.

[B]

It wasn't a ton of resistance. But, I mean, I thought it would just be a foregoing.

[D]

You thought it was first ballot.

[B]

Yeah, I thought she would be a first ballot.

[C]

And what were some of the challenges of getting her on?

[B]

Well, I mean. I mean, I'll speak for John here.

[D]

John, please.

[B]

Jon.

[D]

I'm entirely speaking for myself.

[B]

So catalog weakness.

[D]

Yep. Weakness is wrong. Insufficiency, wrong.

[C]

Right. Because longevity, not.

[B]

56 songs. 56 songs is not enough.

[D]

I'm just compared to a lot of the people who were in the same rough buckets. Sure. I think ultimately we started to see people in buckets.

[E]

Yeah. Who is representing this kind of music

[D]

or idea, mode of songwriting, generation intervention, sensibility. And so I think, for whatever reason on the day, and it should be said, we did this on a lot of days.

[E]

It took more days than planned.

[B]

It took three plus days to do it.

[D]

I also can. I can. I also can.

[B]

I also.

[D]

I had a perverse thought on the way in today as I was stuck on the train.

[E]

You want to do it all over again?

[D]

No, we didn't spend enough time arguing. No, we didn't spend enough time arguing.

[C]

I agree with that.

[B]

I agree with that.

[E]

Because the thing we had to skip over was listening to music together. We were all trusting each other's historical memory and research.

[D]

Not enough. Not enough.

[E]

We weren't there saying this person should be on this list. Because listen to this bridge from this deep cut on their seventh most popular album.

[B]

We did perform.

[E]

We shorthanded that.

[B]

So we did perform some things in the room.

[D]

We did, but it was not some karaoke. It was not as orderly a process. And because of that, I think certain aspects of it fell through the cracks. And truly, I feel, having lived with the final result for a few days now and seeing the feedback and absorbing. My main feeling is we didn't go hard enough, which is in terms of the amount.

[C]

Neil did a different list, I think.

[D]

Yes.

[E]

Only on the margins.

[D]

Yeah. Maybe under five people.

[C]

Let's go back to also.

[D]

Y' all should have let me have 33. Just for the record.

[C]

Can we say. I think it is worth saying just quickly, procedurally, so everybody understands. We started with 25 and part of what emerged, I think, in.

[B]

Is that there was no way in

[C]

bucket making, There was no way to get out of this room without expanding the parameters.

[E]

That was our biggest and most important victory was pushing. Pushing for 30. 30. And we pushed for more.

[C]

Yep, John, it's a good way to.

[E]

Did you walk in the room thinking, this person's gonna be on the list or I'm not walking out of here?

[D]

Oh, oh, well, some. I mean, so many people that didn't make the list, obviously, but one that did. Yeah. I mean, I know that you're asking for one name, but the answer. There's two names.

[E]

Wesley.

[D]

Sorry, but there's two names because they frame two different conundrums of list making. The obvious name is the man on the COVID of this issue, one of three covers.

[E]

That's Jay Z. Shawn Carter.

[D]

If you do not think that this is one of the greatest living American songwriters, you do not listen to American song.

[E]

You're right.

[D]

You do not understand contemporary songwriting. You do not grasp the importance of rap as style structure, narrative flair, attitude. I mean, I could go on for days storytelling. Yeah. But I never actually thought I'd have to fight that hard to get Jay Z on the list.

[B]

Indeed, you didn't have to.

[E]

And you did.

[D]

Didn't have to. Great. The real answer is Romeo Santos. That's the real answer. I knew that I had an uphill battle because I felt fairly confident that no one else in the room listens to Bajata the way that I listen to Bajata or even most contemporary Spanish language music, even within the framework of contemporary Latin pop. This is a person who has carved out a path that has largely resisted what we have thought of as crossover. So there was a high chance that even his most successful records would be obscure, even to my best friends in the room.

[B]

I mean.

[D]

And so I had to make an argument. Not us. Not us. I live in New York. Sure. Yay, Dominican. Literally.

[B]

This was not. This was not a no. This is also one of those things where, like, I was hoping that Romeo Santos would be.

[E]

We could have just as easily put Bad Bunny on the list and moved on and said. And said, the Latin box is checked.

[D]

Or one could have happened, but I didn't want to happen. But this is where you have to bring to bear. What is the reason that I am a music critic? What is the reason that I'm a music critic at the New York Times? What is the function of my job? And part of that is saying that Jay Z matters as much as Bob Dylan. As much as Romeo Santos. And for me, I don't know that I would have quit my job if Romeo Santos didn't make the final list. But it was the case that I felt that I had to make most forcefully, and I feel grateful that that was a success.

[C]

What about you, Joe? I want to hear who it is for you.

[E]

I'm not going to say Taylor Swift. We've talked enough about Taylor Swift. I always knew she would end up on the list.

[B]

Taylor. I mean, we didn't talk about Taylor Swift. I mean, it wasn't.

[E]

There was pushback maybe initially, if I

[D]

remember correctly, talking about LeBron a lot.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

But it was like it was going to get. It was going to get steamrolled. I knew, you know, I knew based on the composition. Yeah. That, like, that was gonna happen. I think outkast really, really, really needed to be on this list. I think they are perhaps the greatest bridge between all of the songwriters on this list. I would maybe put them in, like, the center of this universe in terms of especially black American music, Southern music, storytelling, tradition, experimentalism. I think, like, we forget how crazy outkast music is and how it might have come from George Clinton and Parliament Funkadelic and also ugk. And there's the ghost of Prince in this. Like, you talk about depth of catalog with someone like Fiona. I think people made this list in different ways. Some people made this list because they have five undeniable. Everybody knows this song. This is as sturdy as it gets. You know, I'm thinking of Diane Warren. Like, Diane Warren does not have that deep of a catalog. But the highs. All right, we'll do this later. Compared to some of the people who

[B]

have made deep in quality or deep in number, like, quantitatively, quantity.

[E]

What she doesn't. You're not writing for, like, a random Diane Warren album.

[B]

No, no, but you're talking.

[D]

No, but she doesn't function in an album.

[E]

I'm saying breadth and depth. Yes. I'm saying she made it based on the strength of her 10 biggest songs, 20 bangers.

[B]

There's, like, 50 songs we're talking about, Joe.

[E]

All right.

[D]

Wow. Wow.

[E]

All right. Still, some people made it. A lot of these people have not written a good song in 20, 30, 40.

[B]

That was really important to you.

[E]

That was really important to me. I as among the youngest people in the room. Like, it was just factual.

[B]

Seriously rude.

[E]

It was important to me that there was contemporary representation on the list. And yet outkast, not a lot of songs. Huge, big songs that would be worthwhile for this project in the last 20 years. But to me, Outkast would have made it if they just had Spotty, Adi Dopalicious, Bombs Over Baghdad and Ms. Jackson. But you could do that 10, 20, 50 times in their catalog. Just pick three random songs and be like, they would have made this list only based on those three songs.

[D]

And.

[E]

And they produced them.

[C]

So some of it's about just, like, the sheer quality of the song.

[E]

How high are the highs?

[C]

How high are the highs? Some of it's about, you know, being like, at the beginning of a lineage or sometimes an inheritor of a lineage or furthering of a lineage, you know, like, I guess it's just. I wanna pause for a second to just think about the different ways we define greatness. Because, of course, in some ways it's an absurd claim. 30 greatest, right? But what are we claiming for these people? And I think there are a few different claims, so we've gotten into some of them. But I wanna hear you guys say, like, you know, when you're talk, is she the greatest songwriter? Does she represent something? Is it both?

[B]

I think. I mean, I think with Fiona Apple, I mean, it is a deeply personal choice, but I think part of the reason it's so personal for me is because, I mean, there are very few artists that are expressing something that feels like it should not be expressed in song, that comes from some profoundly visceral place that is given lyrics and a sound musically that matches the emotional instability that is the subject of a lot of her songs. Yeah, I think there's so much risk in the emotional dimension, and I think the risk is married to some really unusual and groundbreaking sounds that she is clearly the steward of because she's working with different producers from album to album to album.

[D]

And also over time, like, came, like, 30 years, like, literally took X amount of years off, came back, hit a grand slam in the World Series.

[B]

Right? Yeah.

[D]

And, like, it was nothing.

[E]

Unlike outkast doesn't have 10 or 20 criminals. She doesn't have 10 or 20 songs that everyone. That's, like, tattooed onto our brains and hearts and that people could sing in karaoke and whatever. It's a. That, to me, is a much more. That's a breadth and depth of catalog pick. And I think we wanted to acknowledge as many songwriting traditions as possible. Most of them are that big bucket we talked about. Singer, songwriter. Most of these artists on this list are performers. I think that that's like one of the biases that both the voters and ultimately us shared, which is that it's easier for us to appreciate songwriters who are also performers. Or in the case of someone like the Dream, who was someone that I wrote about for this, his songs for other people are buoyed by the fact that he also has solo work. And so you can draw the line between the two. You can be like, oh, that's him in that Beyonce or Rihanna song. Which I know because I've also listened to his albums.

[D]

Also to pick up on the performer problem here and to go back to this sort of perverse idea that we didn't argue enough. I feel like we should have had a day that was only about non performing songwriters. Cause those cases are harder to make. A lot of those people work within niches or I mean, not like Nashville is a niche, but like, it's a

[C]

niche and also a way of working.

[D]

Yeah.

[E]

And we put Brandi Clark and Shane McInally on the list.

[D]

Josh Osborne.

[E]

Yeah.

[D]

But to me, I think when I take a step back and think, what's not right with this list, I think could use a couple more non performing songwriters. Not enough people for whom all they do every day is wake up and think about how to write a song, regardless of the tradition that they write a song in.

[C]

Okay. This is a good segue to heartbreaks and disappointments.

[D]

You can't break my heart, Sasha.

[C]

It's not possible. Yeah.

[E]

I have regrets, regrets, regrets I have regrets, regrets, regrets do you want to talk about my regret that dovetails with the Canadian problem, or do you want to save the Canadian problem?

[C]

Let's go for the Canadian problem.

[E]

I think a lot of people have Joni Mitchell regrets. The Joni Mitchell regret. Yeah. And among the people who have received the list, and I think the Joni Mitchell regret for me dovetails with the fact that Drake is not on this list. Drake is among the top five most important songwriters, no nationality attached. Of the 21st century.

[D]

Oh, I thought you were saying of all time. Of all time. I'm not ready to go there at

[E]

this moment right now. And the argument for Joanie was, yes, she was born in Canada, but she made Americanness a huge part of her career. Career, her art. And my counter argument was Drake is half American. He is a black southern American. His father is a black southern American. He spent as much time in America, probably in his adult life as anyone else. And just because he is associated in popular culture so closely with Canadianness, which not many artists are certainly ones that have crossed over. And that's a big point of pride for him, his career and his Songwriting. But I would argue that perhaps slightly more subtly, he has just as closely aligned himself with the American South. His uncle taught Prince how to play some music. You know, it's like there is a deep lineage of American songwriting. I think ultimately we decided that was a slippery slope. How do you define Americanness? Right. Like, then, is Neil Young on the list? Because obviously he is an American songwriter in some way too.

[C]

Wait, a ruin, block or all kinds of things?

[E]

Yes. Many, many, many people down the line. So that was more on a technicality. My other related regret is that we didn't talk about Future enough. I think we knew we wanted contemporary rap representation. We have a nice lineage of rappers in this project. Right. We have super super lyrical, pen to paper. Kendrick Lamar is on here. He's a classicist. We have Jay Z, who is a classicist, but who broke the form by stopping writing, which led to other people, other rappers no longer putting pen to paper and freestyling in real time on the mic. Outkast. Also classicists and experimentalists at once dedicated writers of lyrics for the postmodern rappers. We put Young Thug.

[D]

He's our post structuralist.

[E]

He's our post structuralist rapper. Young Thug is great. Future is a better songwriter than Young Thug. To me, you can argue with me. Give me. Let me finish.

[D]

I can't wait.

[B]

This is what happened in the room.

[D]

Yeah.

[E]

Because Future is an R and B singer. Future has written songs for other people. Future started the melody that became Drunk in Love by Beyonce and Feel no Ways by Drake.

[B]

He has more modes than so many other.

[E]

And he is also an amazing lyricist on top of that, I think for when it comes to songcraft, as much as I love Young Thug and what he represents, I think Future is more of a songwriter. And even in this postmodern mode. And also we skipped over Lil Wayne, who is the godfather to all of

[D]

the people I've been talking about.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

I think really in this postmodern, almost post structuralist question about Young Thug, not even versus Future, but what he represents is like the ancillary question is not what songwriting is, but what is a song.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

Right.

[D]

And I think it's incredibly important to talk about why Young Thug is on the list.

[C]

Sure.

[D]

I don't want to pit him against Future specifically because I would have been perfectly thrilled to have both of them on. Right.

[E]

But we knew we didn't have slots.

[D]

No. And obviously Lil wayne as well.

[E]

2010 Atlanta rappers.

[D]

So I feel like a lot of people who think about the arc of songwriting start at the Beginning, whatever the beginning is, is it the 50s, is it the 20s, is it the 1870s? Whatever. They're starting from there. When I was thinking about Young Thug, I was starting from today and working backwards. And I was thinking, what does rap music sound like today? It's chaotic, it's broken, it's ruptured, it's nonlinear, it is improvisational. And who is a person, not the only person, but who is a primary person responsible for that? I think much of what you hear is pretty much traceable to Young Thug's mixtape run in the mid 2010s. So to me, I'm thinking, as we're splitting buckets up and as we're thinking about what stories do we want to tell here? I want to tell a story about a genre that started with an ambivalent relationship to melody, with an ambivalent relationship to structure, with rappers rapping for eight minutes with no rhyme, with no structure, no choruses, and then choruses imposed and then choruses becoming one with the verse and melody becoming one with rhythm. And then all of that happening. And now we are on the other side of that. And if you Talk to any 23 year old at an Osama san show and ask them what their most important songs are that they care about, I promise all those songs sound like children of young thugs. And so to me, I can tell a story with Young Thug that I can't exactly tell with Future. Doesn't mean they're both not deserving to be on the list. But in the sense that we had. Yeah, in the sense that we had to split them, to me, Thug was a clearer path to telling that part of the story.

[E]

I love that Thug is on this list. I would have.

[D]

Great picture too.

[E]

Yeah, great photo.

[D]

Great sweater. Great sweater.

[E]

I would have, obviously. Yeah. Just personal biases. If it's my list, I put five or 10 Southern rappers on the list.

[C]

Yeah, okay. More heartbreaks.

[B]

I have a list of. I made a list. We don't have to. I don't. We don't have to run them all down, adjudicate them. But some of these people came up in the room. Some of them didn't. You know my number. I made two cases in the room.

[C]

Do it.

[E]

Just do it for REM. Oh, I thought you were going to say the other one.

[B]

What was the other case? Oh, Erykah Badu.

[C]

Oh, no, you made more than two.

[B]

I mean, I tried every day.

[E]

That one almost broke.

[D]

I actually would say that many of these meetings were just simply us watching Wesley make the case. For Erykah Badu, beautifully.

[C]

It should be added

[D]

and compellingly, like, no qualms with the case.

[E]

She could have. She could have.

[D]

Could have been on the list.

[E]

Yeah, could have been on the list.

[D]

We could have gotten rid of the 30 on the list, done a whole different list with 30 different people, and we would have been happy with it, I think.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

But go ahead.

[B]

Anyway. I'll just do the list. I mean, I will just say really quickly about Erykah Badu. I just feel like the thing that she does is so. Is really singular because initially it seemed like she was resurrect. You know, she's part of this neo soul situation, and she's resurrecting all the dormant sounds. And, you know, we're sick of hip hop. We don't want to hear any hip hop in our. In our R and B. Get it out. And, like, there were these people who were stamped as being responsible for, like, redirecting R and B to a more pure place, which was a total mischaracterization of her priorities. Where she was coming from, who she

[D]

was in the room with, making that music, what her.

[B]

Who her collaborators were. But she's such a singular imagination of songcraft that is still, like, satisfying and delicious and weird and funny, but also deeply connected. The path from the studio to the street is, like, very direct with her, but she's just so funny and she's so.

[C]

Her hooks.

[B]

I mean, I don't even. Is a. Does everybody have to know a hook for it to be a hook? I'm hooked. You look at a song like Danger.

[D]

I mean, I can't believe this has just turned into us listening to Wesley make the case for Erykah Bond. This is truly. I am ptsd. I'm ptsd.

[B]

You have ptsd.

[D]

I have ptsd.

[B]

You can't. I've got more PTSD than you have when it comes to this lady, let's

[C]

not have PTSD contest.

[B]

All right, all right, all right, all right, all right.

[D]

Yeah. Sasha wins. Sasha was so fair.

[B]

I mean. Sorry. That is fair.

[E]

I actually have no people.

[C]

I actually don't have any.

[D]

I know. I'm driving. Personally, I'm good.

[B]

Rem. I made multiple cases for both those artists. Randy Newman, he was really close.

[E]

I feel like he was really tried.

[B]

And I tried Lin Manuel Miranda.

[D]

We didn't.

[B]

I mean.

[D]

Yeah, I thought. I thought a lot about this. I. Yes.

[C]

It seems like a universal regret in this movie.

[D]

No, No. I think Joe's a no.

[E]

Well, as I said to Sasha before we Started recording. I had not yet reached the stage of life where the Moana soundtrack was part of it.

[D]

Wow.

[E]

But in the eight plus months since we did this.

[D]

Oh, my God. I learned something today.

[E]

Yeah. So, you know, have a topic.

[D]

Joe loves musical theater. I did not know that.

[E]

My daughter loves the song Perfect daughter. Even though she is not the seen Moana.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

I mean, wow.

[B]

James Murphy.

[E]

James.

[B]

James Wesley's list of regrets.

[D]

Cool guy.

[B]

James Murphy, your list of regrets. Carly Simon, Jimmy Webb, Billy Eilish and Phineas. Jillian Welch. Y talked about.

[C]

We talked about her a lot.

[B]

She did not. She did not make the list. Patty Griffin didn't even come up. She was well balloted. And Donald Fagan, which is a real.

[C]

Who we talked about a lot.

[B]

Real flashpoint in the room.

[D]

Also. Just. It's important to just.

[B]

I will just. What? Go on.

[D]

No.

[B]

Are you gonna say what I'm gonna say?

[D]

No. I would never. And could. And also couldn't. No, no. And could never. No, no, please, I insist.

[B]

I just. I was really fascinated by the racial breakdown of the Donald Fagan fight because the Negroes in the room were in favor and the white men were not.

[E]

There was a white woman who was give Lindsay her flowers as a Steely Dan head. Like, I was a hard no on Steely Dan in the same way I was a hard no on Billy Joel. Email me, bro. Yeah, it's just like about Billy Joel

[B]

and another major artist in a job.

[E]

I took my job in the room

[C]

to be keeping Billy Dan off the list.

[E]

To keep a certain kind of guy. Guy.

[D]

Guy.

[E]

Off. In favor.

[D]

Always a guy. Just a guy.

[E]

Yes.

[D]

In favor of just a guy. Young women. When you see him, you know the guy.

[B]

When you hear telling me, I mean, I know. I know the guy when I see him.

[D]

Here's the thing. Everybody who's watching every.

[B]

Not that guy.

[D]

I'm just saying everybody who's watching knows that guy. That's all I'm saying.

[B]

You want to talk about. We can talk about Beck and being

[D]

that guy, but I mean, no votes for Beck. Sorry. Okay. Can I just. In the interest of expediting. No, no. I just. Can I. I want to read.

[B]

I'm done.

[D]

I want to read. Jones.

[B]

Callahan. Now. I'm done.

[E]

Say a couple more.

[C]

Good.

[B]

Bill Callahan.

[D]

Jesus Christ. You hold your whole ballot. You couldn't have balloted that many people. You literally making up ballots that wasn't on your ballot. I'm done.

[C]

No.

[D]

Oh, my God.

[B]

I'm just talking.

[D]

I didn't know I had to do homework to have new people who weren't on my ballot.

[B]

Keep going.

[C]

See what I had to be done with. Do you see what I have done with?

[D]

That's what I was like.

[C]

Go, please.

[D]

Literally, I'm too busy looking at the camera.

[B]

Katie Crutchfield.

[D]

Fine. Okay, we'll pick up with Katie Crutchfield.

[C]

I almost made it. She really almost made it.

[E]

On the bubble.

[D]

Very much.

[E]

We tried.

[D]

Yeah. Okay. Nas, Styles P. Whose ballot is online?

[E]

Go check that out.

[D]

Hillary, Lindsay, Zach, Bryan, Earl Sweatshirt. Lil Wayne, Alan, Jackson, Luke Laird, Cameron, Ashley, Gourley, Sturgill, Simpson, Scarface. Katie Crutchfield. And then I said, didn't put Pete Wentz, but I should have. We can go on now.

[E]

Can I say, can I do 30 seconds on the Kanye and Beyonce problem?

[D]

Sure, sure.

[C]

Maybe we should do that.

[D]

First of all, those are non over. They're overlapping.

[E]

But to me they're the same problem.

[B]

Hold on, Joe. I think we should take a break because when we come back, I think what we should probably do is, you know, feedback. No, we'll just talk about what it has been like to have this thing be in the world, including receiving a lot of comments from, you know, thousands of comments, thousands from readers.

[E]

Thousands and thousands shout out to you all.

[B]

A lot of typing to think about, like some more about what this list is actually saying and doing and meaning, even in terms of like the way we've been talking about who's not on it.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

So we'll take a break and we'll be right back.

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[B]

Okay, we're back. Sasha, I mean, I'm entrusting this operation to you today. What are we doing? Where are we going?

[C]

Well, we were starting to maybe get into the comments section. Readers are very engaged. They have a lot to say. So I thought we should bring some of what we're getting into the room as a way of also continuing to talk about, like, what we were doing, what we weren't doing. Okay, so let me read a comment. And don't worry, you'll all get to read comments too. But I'm gonna read the first one. Dan W. From Los Angeles says, rather than argue the impossible task of sorting by superlatives, I will only ask the following what constitutes writing a song? Which part of the songwriting are you judging? The lyrics, the music, the production behind the recording. I just think this is a fool's errand, trying to express the best when one song can be played on a ukulele and sung while another needs a team of producers creating a beat.

[B]

I love this.

[C]

A lyricist, etc.

[B]

I love this comment. I love this comment.

[C]

You're comparing to TR808s. They're all valid songwriters, but songs aren't just one thing. I am happy to see Stephen Merritt's name on any list, though.

[D]

What a twist to be. I did not see that coming. I did like great plot twist. Okay, so my my thought. This man knows what an 808 is

[E]

and loves Steven Merrick.

[B]

It's wild. Steve Amerik does not want to hear his Name associated with 808 Anything unless it's 8 o' song on one album.

[D]

No. 303s.

[B]

No.

[D]

Yes. Correct.

[C]

Right. Exactly.

[B]

No.

[C]

I love this.

[D]

I love this comment.

[E]

Great.

[D]

Do you want to come on the next you want to be in the next meeting? DW no, this is right.

[C]

The water is warm.

[B]

What's coming up for me and reading this comment is It's a cold plunge.

[D]

It's a cold plunge. It's the golden or It's a Boiling.

[B]

It's a boiling cauldron.

[D]

Cauldron. There you go.

[B]

I love this comment because what I immediately thought of is he's describing the many ways in which a song can be expressed, right? The modes it can take, the devices and instruments used to create a song, the places, the sources of inspiration. The thing that I liked coming back to when we talked about who should or should not be on this list, a thing that I liked thinking about, and I think we talked about it quite a bit. And this is a sort of traditionalist way of thinking about, like, a kind of song craft excellence. But I think it's a useful one. Which is covers, right? Like, whose songs are being covered. Sampled, Covered. Sampled.

[E]

And the song of Karaoke, I would add to that, which I think is

[B]

a cover of a sort of like the people's. The people's cover.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

I actually think that it's not quite a fool's errand, because I think there is something sort of quantifiable in some way. I just. I like thinking about the top five vote getters among the balloteers. The people we didn't even talk about in the room because there was nothing to discuss because they were going on the list no matter what. Bob Dylan, Stevie Wonder, Carole King, Dolly Parton, and Paul Simon.

[D]

All foundational bricks. I would argue, ultimately, that there are people who were not in the top hundred of balloting who are just as essential to have on this list in a variety of ways. But the balloting is obviously gonna over index on older artists and artists who are perceived as foundational. So, you know, I'm interested in this idea that you have of kind of, how is a song traveling through the world, and what does that tell us about its sturdiness? But I also think that it's a bit of a misread. Covers have a huge tradition, say, in country music and less of a tradition in rap music. So you can't.

[E]

There's different kinds of covers in rap music.

[D]

There's different ways. I understand, but I'm saying that that is one. Karaoke is an interesting idea. What do people want to go and sing? I know you're a big karaoke guy. What do you go in the room and want to and, like, sing or rap your heart out, too?

[B]

I, Wesley, am a big karaoke. Yeah. I mean, I also know you don't

[C]

do it at all.

[D]

No, I feel like it's an abject.

[E]

It should be never, never, never.

[D]

It should literally mean, you know what

[E]

my version of karaoke. We'll get back on track.

[D]

Karaoke should be banned. I'm sorry. Sorry. Don't do it. What? Don't do it.

[B]

John, get off the show. You gotta leave.

[E]

I have a more literal answer to this question though, at least if you of how I thought about it, which is it is somehow the combination between lyrics and music and melody. And if you are involved in any part of that process, especially at the germ of an idea level, I'm willing to put primarily a producer on the list. For instance, you know, Jimmy and Terry and Niall. I think of more as. And a name that came up more as. I think of those people more as producers than as songwriters because they often work with a lyric writer or a melody writer in addition. But I was willing to go there. My definition for songwriting included producers primarily. It included a topliner, someone like the Dream who does not write music typically, but who adds the melody over a track. Just the lyrics and the melody. Maybe the lyrics are then iterated on later. Where I couldn't go was people who come in later in the process or are primarily curators, collage artists, executive producers.

[C]

This is a really good segue to one of the people that has come up a lot in the comments. I think we should talk about her journey. Can you read this comment from Craig?

[E]

So this is Craig. Craig wrote Beyonce left off because did her style of parentheses genius collaborative songwriting. Count her out. Her last three albums, Lemonade Renaissance and Cowboy Carter are genre bending American classics. Referencing American Requiem at this point would seem appropriate. Be interested in the thought process of the judges, please. Period.

[B]

Those old ideas, I can tell you mine buried here.

[E]

Yeah, I think of Beyonce as a curator and an executive producer. I have heard and performer and performer.

[D]

The performer like the performer.

[E]

The performer of the moment. I agree with most of this comment. I think I've heard demos that Beyonce has sang. I see what she adds to them. She is Frank Sinatra. She is Frank Sinatra plus Quincy Jones plus Kanye West. Another person I would put in this camp. Kanye west famously infamously uses ghostwriters, uses ghost producers. He is the magician who can put all that stuff together. He can record a session with Justin Vernon, a session with Chief Keef, a Mike Dean guitar solo, put it all together. He is the maestro. He's a modern day composer. I'm open to the argument that that's another sort of postmodern songwriting, but that would have been expanding the definition for me. One click further and we didn't take it there.

[D]

And that's also like a very performer coded thinking about songwriting. I disagree with you about the exact overlap between Beyonce and Kanye. I think especially if you go to earlier Kanye. I think obviously what we're saying about later Kanye, that's indisputable.

[B]

Earlier.

[D]

It's up for debate Consequence songs. Yeah, allegedly. Whatever we know about Kanye 4.0, it might have been different during Kanye 1.0. Beyonce as well. Similar thing.

[E]

Although there was the early stuff where

[B]

I think it's the opposite actually, where.

[C]

Guys, I'm going to moderate. Sorry, we gotta stay on track here.

[D]

Hands off, hands off. The debate.

[C]

Kate versus Alley, you know, can happen later. We're gonna go to another person oft mentioned by the commenters. You're gonna love this one. This is for you.

[D]

John James says, I went to Berkeley College of Music. I didn't. And there was an entire songwriting curriculum based on Billy Joel songwriting. It's literally stupid. He's not on this list. It's like not. This is great. I wish I'd seen this guy. I would have responded to this comment.

[E]

You still can.

[D]

I am about to. It's like not having Hendrix or Eddie Van Halen on a list of greatest guitarists. Okay, it's not. It's actually not like that. Thank you for this opportunity to respond to this comment, to which I do respectfully. When you think about Hendrix and Eddie Van Halen, you think about formal innovators who are also, in their way, hit makers and creators of melodies and also processes that are universal in how they have moved through the world in their wake. Billy Joel is a very good example of a person who writes 1 or 1.5 kinds of songs really well. That also people before him wrote really well and people after him wrote really well. I love that I'm delivering this to camera. This is. I'm really going in.

[E]

We're clipping this.

[D]

No, no. Yeah, we're really going in. I like Billy Joel. I just want to go on the record. I like Billy Joel. I know you don't like Billy Joel. I like Billy Joel. People I love like Billy Joel. But if we are making a list of 30 Greatest Living American songwriters, you're not only saying, what are they great at? You're saying, what aren't they doing? What is the thing? Why? What is the reason? I wouldn't put them on this list. And Billy Joel exists in pre existing traditions. He's good at it some days I think great. But you gotta draw the line somewhere.

[B]

Oh, no. I mean, I guess I always sort of. I think the thing that gets me out of a lot of this is like, you know, There were only 30. There are only 30 slots. But I was convinced when we walked into that room that we'd be walking out with Billy Joel being on the list.

[E]

And our readership would have preferred it, certainly.

[B]

I just think that he. The song craft. His songs don't sound like anybody else's songs. What you hear in the songs is tradition. Right. These are original songs that, like, come from him. And his sensibility is guiding every one of the story songs, every one of the breakup songs, fall in love songs. The traditions he's drawing from are quite clearly drawn from a tradition.

[D]

Sure.

[B]

But they're not to be mistaken for anybody else's song. And I think that each one of those numbers exists on its own. And I said numbers because, you know, the joke about Billy Joel is he's just Broadway without a show. I don't know. I want to belabor the Billy Joel point. I just want to acknowledge all the people who were as bewildered as. I was disappointed that we left that room and he was on the floor. Okay.

[D]

Yes.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Sorry.

[C]

No, it's okay. No, I'm glad that we aired that out. That was important. One more person who, you know, wow.

[B]

It's like you knew who to give each comment to.

[C]

There's a reason I'm the moderator, my friend.

[B]

Hey, Colette from Canada. Love her or something else. Taylor Swift absolutely deserves her spot on the list. She reminds me of someone else who was conspicuously absent. Madonna.

[D]

Wow.

[B]

Madonna.

[D]

Madonna. Wow.

[B]

Madonna.

[C]

Wow. Yes.

[B]

She wrote Lucky Star in Like a Prayer. But what about the gorgeous Live to Tell, oh, Father Frozen, Deeper and Deeper, Justify My Love. Four minutes in all, she wrote or co wrote most of her catalog. Like Taylor Swifton is ever taken seriously or given enough credit for her songwriting. I will not read the rest of this comment because it involves the national.

[E]

Not a lot of indie rock on this list.

[B]

I will say I share K. Colette's observation.

[D]

Sure.

[B]

I think Madonna is the most underrated. A lot of things still to this

[D]

day too ubiquitous to be properly. To be properly rated.

[B]

The way you talked about Outkast, I mean.

[E]

No, it all applies to Madonna.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Molecular Madonna is an essentially molecular entity at this point. She has. All the lessons have been learned. All of the cultural meaning has been absorbed. She is in everybody's DNA, whether you make music or do something else construction. She's in you. And I think that it's so easy to take her. Oh, my God. She's the person that's gonna make me start crying.

[D]

Wait, this is a.

[B]

But this is playing I. You know, because part of her never being taken seriously is that she was so good at never letting the seams show. She was never a person who was ever out here being like, look what I did. Look what I can do. She just did it to that point.

[E]

Can I do the literal reporter thing one more time? Which is to say, I don't know what Madonna's role in the writing of her songs is. I don't know. I would have loved to learn.

[D]

This is the Mariah. And I can't think of the Mariah Carey. I keep thinking Mariah here. Okay, so I have. First of all, I do think Mariah

[B]

Carey, who made the list.

[D]

Yes, yes. Okay. A couple of things. I think we did not even entertain Madonna enough. We should have. We should have. That is, I would have asked this

[E]

question in the room.

[D]

I am bringing us all to the red table. Like, we did not talk about Madonna enough. That's on us.

[B]

We did not.

[D]

Apologies across the board, but here's Bibe. But I have thoughts about that. I think I know why. Or I have some thoughts about why. Part of it is the what we did talk about a lot, which is Mariah Carey, which is the persistent perception, uncertainty about how much songwriting contribution that

[E]

person had, who is the author of these songs.

[D]

Sure. And again, we resolved it in Mariah's favor. Totally fine. We had a lot of people in the room who had visibility into different pieces of Mariah's career. Totally fine. I actually think the Madonna problem is slightly different, even though it's in the same bucket. When was Madonna at her commercial peak? Madonna was at her commercial peak in the 80s into the early. I was gonna say early to mid

[E]

90s and then a gap and then a good return.

[D]

However, for the sake of my argument, let's keep my boundaries here. Madonna suffered from thriving during an era where narratives about prefabricated pop music were starting to form, where rockism was alive, and also because. Who was as famous as Madonna at the same exact time? Michael Jackson, who showed overemphasized both greatness and innovation. Crafts literally reversed. Madonna was a different kind of pop star.

[B]

Also Prince.

[D]

Also Prince, yes. Although in the wake. Very much in the wake of Prince. But I think if you are even a casual fan, thinking back to 1986 or 1988 or whatever, what you remember is Michael Jackson being great and loud and dominant and Madonna being super popular but not being flashy about these other things. And I think that shaped narrativization of that era, of her song craft, where she might have done the most actual writing.

[B]

Sure. I also think that when we're talking about the difference between what women do and what men do, harvest how they're received in the world, this is a

[C]

point of reality neglect.

[B]

And I think that. Well, I think. But no, I think that one of the healthy things that come out of a conversation like this is that, I mean, and this is what I think is great about this list, which is that it is now it is one of those things. I don't know. I never really know what it means when people say, well, it's going to force all these conversations. But, I mean, it really is among, you know, people in my life, you know, us here right now talking about what. I mean, in the particular case of Madonna, what authorship is and what it looks like. Right. I have always been a big believer in the singer being as much an author of a song as the person who sat down with, like, a pen and a paper or a laptop or whatever to do the composition. Sure. And, you know, so in that case, you know, Whitney Houston, Ella Fitzgerald, to me, they're songwriters.

[D]

Sure.

[E]

Would Whitney have made this list? Probably not.

[B]

No, she would not.

[E]

And if anything didn't make the list, there's no way Whitney Houston made it. And Mariah, saying throughout her career, I am a writer, was positioning herself away from the Whitney Houston problem, which is she's just a voice. And that was their split among others, which you've talked about in various podcasts, probably on this very show. But, yes, the Whitney, Mariah question. One of the things Mariah did to differentiate herself was continuing to draw attention to the idea that. That I am a writer of these songs. I am an author of these songs, and that makes me better.

[C]

I mean, Leslie, you are starting to kind of, you know, synthesize for us some of the work that this list is doing in the world, one function of which is to prompt a lot of conversations about what songwriting is, what it contains, how broad the definition should be, how narrow the definition should be. We buried some of that out in here, but I guess I want to hear from all of you, like, what, in the end, in the final analysis, is this list doing, do you think? What is the work that it's doing in 2026? What do you think.

[D]

We may well be moving towards an era in which the very notion of song is troubled and unstable. I think that's exciting. Personally, I think a lot of people commenting maybe don't find that exciting. I personally find it exciting. I'm perversely happy to see A bunch of people good at bat for folks that maybe don't speak to me at that level. I love music. I'm grateful for music. I'm grateful to be able to sit here and have arguments with people about these things that have defined my intellectual and personal project for the entirety of my life grimly. And I am grateful that, as a collective, that we could come together and resist the easiest options and resist the simplest options and put various traditions in dialogue with each other and on par with each other. And I can only hope when people come along 10, 20, 30 years from now to annihilate our list, it'll be for good reason. They'll know what we stood for.

[E]

I was saying. Yeah, I was thinking, as you were saying, that it's like it's a time capsule. It's like. And might be the last moment that we consider song in this way where we could still draw the line from Stevie Wonder to Bad Bunny, you know, and. And maybe the next wave of these overlapping lineages, like, looks totally different and is as much machine as it is, man, you know? Like, I don't, you know.

[D]

30 greatest AI songwriters. Next year, same time, same place.

[C]

Let's do it.

[B]

I feel like. I think this is a great moment to have this list out in the world. I think that it's a great moment to have this list out in the world because it is meeting this moment that you're interested in, which is like the sort of breakdown of traditional songcraft into not even constituent parts, but scraps. Right. And having the scraps sort of be reconstituted into something song like.

[E]

Right.

[B]

But at the same time, if you look at the charts, I've been really interested in how, you know, the masses of us are really hungry for or at least tolerant of a kind of much more traditional sounding song right now. I think that there is this wonderful dialogue happening on the list that reflects a. I don't even know if it's a dialogue in the real world, but a tension between comfort and instability.

[D]

That said, can I just say, I dare someone to cover Playboi Carti Opium Baby on American Idol. I dare you. Let this be the moment that sets you free and go follow your truth. I can't wait to see you on the show.

[B]

But, I mean, I actually think that somebody like Don Toliver is.

[E]

I did not expect that name to be said in this podcast.

[B]

I'm just saying, I just feel like.

[E]

Tasha, you listen to a lot of Don Toliver. Me either.

[B]

Well, I don't know. I just feel like, there are these places where this tension exists between, like, the broken down and the very stable and traditional. And like, what did we spend the last two years doing? Obsessing over this one white lady's songs while the meaning of them, the writing of them, while two black men were having a songwriting fight that we all were also fascinated by.

[E]

You're talking about Taylor, Drake and Kendrick.

[B]

Yes.

[D]

Yes. And I. I like calling rap a beef. A songwriting fight. That's cool. Just writing articles about each other. More people should do that.

[B]

Anyway. I don't know. This just feels like the ripest time for this list to go out into the world. And I'm glad that we did it. I'm glad that we took part in it, and I'm also glad that you guys came to talk about it.

[D]

We're grateful to be here.

[B]

I learned some things. I felt some things.

[E]

This is really fun. We should do it again.

[B]

We should do it again. Listen, thank you, John. Thank you, Joe. Thank you, Sasha. Thank you for keeping us well behaved.

[C]

Thank you for not being well behaved and making this crazy list.

[E]

Go read the list.

[D]

Cannonball.

[A]

This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Spring always feels like a reset, clearing things out, simplifying what you don't need. Apple Card is built with that same idea in mind. No annual fee, no late fees, and no foreign transaction fees. No fees, period. Get started and apply in the wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 17.49% to 27.74% based on creditworthiness rates as of January 1, 2026. Existing customers can view their variable APR in the Wallet app or at carr.apple.com Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City branch terms and [e-mail] let's talk groceries. Specifically your groceries. With Instacart, you want your groceries just

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[B]

That's our show. I just want to say that this greatest living American songwriters thing didn't just happen on its own and we didn't do it all. So I just want to say thanks and congratulations to Nitsu Abebe, Jessica Dimson, Kate Larue, David Carthus, Gail Bickler, Jan Lichta, Victoria Escobar Laura, Sarah Kanich, Jeannie Choi, Liv Gamble, Adrien Green, Jen Pelly and Jake Silverstein and many other people. But this crew especially. And also you know what? But some babies got born on this team. Rocco Imartino and George. And I also want to say shout out to my especial new baby friend, Sebastian Benito Brown. Welcome to the world, everybody. Okay, that's really our show. This episode of Cannonball was produced by Janelle Anderson, Elissa Dudley and John White. It was edited by Austin Mitchell and Lisa Tobin. It was fact checked by Caitlin Love. This episode was engineered by Daniel Ramirez. It was recorded by Matty Masagello, Kyle Grandillo, Nick Pittman and Sam Winter. Also Sophia Landman features original music by Dan Powell and Diane Wong. Our theme music. You know who did it? Justin Ellington did. Bobby Doherty took the picture for our show art. Our audience team is Katie o' Brien and Maria Abdulkoff. Our video team is Felice Leon and Brooke Minters. This episode was filmed by Alfredo Chiarappa, Daniel Isarti, Andrew Smith, Dave Mayers and Thomas Trudeau. It was edited by Jeremy Rocklin and Eddie Costas. We're on YouTube as if anything has ever changed about that. And we'll be back next week. Thanks for listening, everybody.

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