Is 'Colbert' the Wrong Late Show to Cancel?

Summary

Podcast Summary – Cannonball with Wesley Morris

Episode: Is 'Colbert' the Wrong Late Show to Cancel?
Date: May 21, 2026
Host: Wesley Morris
Guest: Jason Zinoman (New York Times comedy and television critic)

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Episode Overview

In this timely and reflective episode of Cannonball, Wesley Morris examines the shifting landscape of late-night TV. As CBS cancels “The Late Show with Stephen Colbert” and late-night’s relevance is debated, the core question emerges: Is the wrong institution biting the dust? Should it be Saturday Night Live after 51 years, instead of Colbert’s Late Show? Wesley brings on Jason Zinoman to wrestle with late-night’s value—including SNL’s cultural footprint, the unique promise of live television, and what, if anything, will fill these iconic time slots as broadcast TV enters uncharted territory.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The End of Colbert and The State of Late Night

• Opening Thoughts (00:36): Wesley opens with the news of Colbert's final “Late Show” and reflects on a late-night landscape defined by uncertainty, layoffs, and cancellations. He notes the irony and existential crisis facing the legacy formats.

  “I almost can’t believe I’m saying this, but tonight is the last episode of The Late Show with Stephen Colbert. CBS has done pull the plug, probably prematurely…” – Wesley Morris (00:36)

• Both CBS and ABC are teetering, with Colbert gone and Kimmel at “weekly risk of cancellation.” SNL, meanwhile, persists—a subject of cultural comfort, but also increasing debate about its continued necessity.

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SNL: Should It Have Ended at 50?

• Wesley’s Critique (01:10): Wesley questions whether SNL is past its sell-by date, reflecting on the 50th anniversary celebration and the decline in memorable, "sticky" characters. He misses the weirder, riskier moments from its past, citing “The Californians,” “Hans and Franz,” Colleen Rafferty, and Toonces the Cat.

  “It’s been 51 years and it really might be time to say goodbye to Saturday Night Live … This 51st season has been really dry … The show actually needs maybe more stars, but it definitely needs sharper ideas.” – Wesley (06:29, paraphrased)

• On SNL as a Platform for Stars (10:05): Jason makes the case for SNL’s value—its unique tradition in developing unknown comics into comedy superstars, the excitement in watching new talent emerge, and its rare role as a live, weekly, topical show.

  “There is an excitement to that. That is part of what the show does and cares about more than getting the most polished, funniest sketches that they possibly can…” – Jason (10:35)

• Irreplaceable Institution?: Jason argues that even a flawed SNL fills a space that no other show could—its inefficiencies and bloat allow for creative oddities and moments of brilliance to emerge.

  “If we lost it, nothing replaces it. Nothing would fill its space. … Out of a lot of mediocrity or worse, for weird stuff to bubble up.” – Jason (13:06)

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The Mechanics of SNL: Young Talent, Live Chaos, and Occasional Brilliance

• The Production Model (09:15):

  • Live TV, written last minute, reliant on young, often unknown cast members
  • The value is not just laughs—it’s also the improvisational, "anything-can-happen" thrill of live performance.

• Revolving Cast as Strength (15:11):

  • SNL’s “bones” remain; only the people change. The entrance of new cast is seen as vital, pulling from improv traditions (Groundlings, etc.)

  • Discussion of Ashley Padilla’s standout first season—her “MAGA Mom” sketch praised for its topical subtlety, live unpredictability, and her unique timing (16:39).

    “Nobody else would deliver those lines the way she would. There’s like a musicality, a bass line to the way she sets them up.” – Jason (18:58)

  • Other current cast strengths: Marcelo Hernandez’s voice and Sarah Sherman’s surreal humor.

• The “Live” Component (19:11):

  • The appeal partly lies in live mistakes or breaking character (“the kids are breaking in that moment”), which makes the viewer part of the unpredictable experience.

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The Cue Card Problem and Performance vs. Writing

• Cue Card Critique (23:32):

  • Wesley laments the increasing reliance on cue cards and less rehearsal, contrasting with earlier years when cast memorization was tighter. Matt Damon’s recent “Auctioneers in a Crumbling Marriage” sketch is highlighted as a rare recent example of strong preparation and live performance (22:44).

  “I was really dialed in in a way that I’m typically not with these sketches, because I’m just, like, looking at them look past the person they’re in a scene with.” – Wesley (24:27)

  • Sketch shows like Mr. Show or Kids in the Hall leaned on writing and rehearsal due to being pre-taped, while SNL’s live aspect both enables and constrains its magic.

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Late Night’s Cultural Role: Past and Future

• Why Late Night? (32:35):

  • The panel explores why late night TV still matters as the slot after local news. The Internet’s meme cycle predigests the day’s news and celebrity guests, but late night persists as a tradition and a cultural touchstone “watched with families for generations.” The multi-generational appeal of SNL is flagged as uniquely unifying (11:10).

• Political Evolution (34:48):

  • Shows like Jon Stewart’s Daily Show made late night overtly political, influencing the genre’s shift from Johnny Carson-style escapism to Letterman/Colbert subversion.
  • The president now publicly targets late night hosts, underlining their ongoing influence.

  “You can’t exactly call late night irrelevant when it’s in the crosshairs of what we’re gonna traditionally say is the most powerful job in the world.” – Wesley (35:07)

• Historical Perspective:

  • Carson is remembered for “lowering the temperature” during national stress, rarely veering into real controversy. If Carson existed today, Jason and Wesley agree, he’d be most similar to Jimmy Fallon—offering comfort and escape with little political edge (40:13).

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The Economics & Fallout of Colbert’s Cancellation

• Show Economics (41:26):

  • Debates swirl about the real reason for Colbert’s ax—the show's expense, corporate mergers, or appeasing regulators. Colbert’s value is contrasted with what’s replacing him: Comics Unleashed, a syndicated, low-budget comedy roundtable “with comedians you’ve never heard of.”
  • The business model is about cost-minimization, not cultural impact.

  “He’s renting the space. But so what does that mean? To me, that says low risk because you can’t lose money if you’re leasing it. Low reward. Comics Unleashed. The ceiling is very low.” – Jason (45:06)

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What Would We Lose Without SNL or Late Night?

• Institutional Value, Even in Decline:

  • SNL is an inefficient, expensive dinosaur, but its inefficiency is part of why it can still occasionally produce the truly unexpected (“weird stuff to bubble up”).

  “I feel like I’m actually … feeling sad about what has transpired. … There is a value to this time slot … the comfort and stability … it’s the same value that it had at the peak of the format.” – Wesley (45:25)

• Fallon as Modern Carson (46:08):

  • Wesley provocatively suggests Fallon embodies the comfort, mainstream, “lowered temperature” Carson once did. Jason agrees that Fallon fills a “showbiz need that hasn’t vanished.”

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The “Late or Hate?” Lightning Round (48:10)

Wesley and Jason quickly evaluate (by gut) which comedians or celebrities might actually make good late-night hosts:

• Amy Poehler – late
• Ziwe – way late (acknowledges her resilience and reinvention)
• Tina Fey – (mixed, context dependent)
• Marc Maron – hate (too neurotic; format mismatch)
• Ilana Glazer – hate
• Kenan Thompson – late (“He actually has a lot of the skills of a great talk show [host].” – Jason 50:54)
• Nick Kroll – late (multi-talented, vaudeville energy)
• Eddie Murphy – hate (great guest, not a host)

Their conclusion: The late night host shouldn't necessarily be the most brilliant performer, but someone who can make others shine and bridge spontaneous live performance and comfort.

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The Future: What Comes Next? (Colbert, SNL, and the Hybrid Show)

• Colbert’s Next Act? (54:14):

  • Jason: The “Colbert Report” was a marvel—could Colbert do something that inventive again? The Conan O’Brien model is discussed: multiple, experimental projects beyond traditional late night.

  “He was completely in character … it was an incredible improvisational high wire act that, like comedy nerds fell in love with and were amazed by, which is why he got the show.” – Jason (54:14)

  • The loss of Colbert represents more than just one host—it’s the loss of a format for authentic, soulful conversation.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “One of the greatest traditions of Saturday Night Live is wishing, is hating Saturday Night Live.” – Jason Zinoman (07:13)
• “Nobody else would deliver those lines the way [Ashley Padilla] would. There’s like a musicality, a bass line to the way she sets them up.” – Jason Zinoman (18:58)
• “This is what SNL has always done well … it’s fundamentally about performers.” – Jason Zinoman (26:41)
• “You can’t exactly call late night irrelevant when it’s in the crosshairs of … the most powerful job in the world.” – Wesley Morris (35:07)
• “He’s renting the space. He’s renting the space. But so what does that mean? … Comics Unleashed. The ceiling is very low.” – Jason Zinoman (45:06)
• “What is [Kenan Thompson] great at? … He makes the other person funny. Plays the straight man, has the timing, sets it. He actually has a lot of the skills of a great talk show [host].” – Jason (50:54)
• “The Colbert Report was … an incredible improvisational high wire act.” – Jason Zinoman (54:14)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:36 — Wesley’s intro & eulogy for Colbert; setup for the SNL debate
• 06:28 — Should SNL have ended at 50?
• 09:15 — SNL’s unique model (live, young talent, inefficiency)
• 13:06 — Why SNL is irreplaceable as a cultural institution
• 16:39 — Deep dive: Ashley Padilla and the MAGA Mom sketch
• 22:44 — “Auctioneers in a Crumbling Marriage” — the thrill of live, well-rehearsed sketch
• 32:35 — What is late night TV for, post-Internet?
• 34:48 — The late night—news—politics cycle and the legacy of Jon Stewart
• 41:26 — Economics of Colbert’s cancellation and what’s replacing him (“Comics Unleashed”)
• 45:25 — The emotional loss of late-night as a time slot and format
• 46:08 — Carson as proto-Fallon (comfort TV and mainstream values)
• 48:10 — “Late or Hate?” game—who should host the next great show?
• 54:14 — Colbert Report’s innovation; Conan’s multi-platform blueprint for the future

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Conclusion & Takeaways

This episode serves as a sentimental, incisive look at the twilight of the network late-night era. Wesley and Jason analyze not just who should survive—SNL, Late Show—but why these creaky institutions matter: live unpredictability, generational conversation, and stars-in-the-making. While Saturday Night Live may frustrate, its accidental brilliance and persistent experimentation make it impossible to truly replace.

The abrupt ending of Colbert’s Late Show is felt as an inflection point for broadcast TV’s ability to create a nightly, communal experience. As the duo close with hopes for innovation (hybrid shows, reinventions à la Conan and Colbert Report), they also mourn the passing of a cultural era—one defined by laughter, surprise, and the comfort of a glowing television after dark.

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Episode worth noting if you care about:

• The intersection of comedy, media consolidation, and American culture
• The evolution of SNL and late-night TV
• How and why institutions endure (or don’t), even past their logical endpoints
• Sharp critical banter, plenty of nostalgia, and a real love for the strange charm of live TV

Transcript

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[Wesley Morris]

I'm Wesley Morris and this is Cannonball. Today they call it the Late show, but I mean, they're putting it to bed awfully early. I almost can't believe I'm saying this, but tonight is the last episode of the Late show with Stephen Colbert. CBS has done pull the plug, probably prematurely, but I mean, welcome to late night television whose thing for drama sometimes brings it closer to daytime soap. But now the crisis, I don't know, it's existential. There's no talk show going into the late night slot. Meanwhile, over at abc, Jimmy Kimmel lives at almost weekly risk of cancellation now. And you know, their crimes can basically be boiled down to offending the President. But this one late night show that keeps on keeping on and maybe it's also time to put that one down. It's been 51 years and it really might be time to say goodbye to Saturday Night Live. For the last five years, I have thought now's the time. Just end it. End it. This show was never about polish. And part of the draw is the chaos and magic of live television where you know anything can go wrong and you've always had to put up with weak sketches. But it wasn't always this sad. SNL used to do it for me. I mean, I'd pick an obvious recurring sketch like the Californians. Maybe you should get going before Stuart gets home. Alright, I'll say you're gonna take Canyon View driver to Sam Vicente and then make a left and go four or five north. I mean, it was supposed to be a joke on, I don't know, so many things, soap operas, LA's driving culture, the rich chardonnay. I think you should go home now, Devin. There's nothing going on. Stuart Sink of who get back on San Vicente. I mean, one of the things that's funny about this sketch also is just somebody's gonna lose it.

[Sketch Performer/Voice Actor]

Stuart, at this time of it's gonna be jumped.

[Wesley Morris]

Are you crossing it also managed to transcend satire and turn it into this amazing kind of nonsense sketch. Whenever the writing dies, the comedy is still there. For the Californians. And then it could take whatever was topical and, like, hook that to a great character. Sometimes you get a catchphrase. I am Hans. I'm Hans and Franz, and we're here to pump.

[Jason Zinoman]

Now's the time on Sprocket for me.

[Wesley Morris]

Die. And then there's, you know, Dieter doing his little sprocket dance. And Sally O'. Malley. I'm 50, 50 years old. While 40 gray aliens take turns. Colleen Rafferty gently batting my knockers. Colleen Rafferty's like alien abduction interrogations. They're just like, look, it won my worst Wednesday night five stars. But, you know, it's been a minute since the show created a character with that kind of stickiness. This 51st season has been really dry. The show actually needs maybe more stars, but it definitely needs sharper ideas to turn some of this cast into stars. Plus, I mean, I just think the show's become extremely reliant on celebrities and trendness. Famous people have made cameos throughout the history of the show, and sometimes magic can happen when they do. But a lot of the time I'm just home watching, Hungry for some laughs. I'm seeing that Lisa has some news. Take the sketch from this season with Teyana Taylor that's supposed to be a joke on the Broncos and Monday night football. Sir, what's your name? It's Jarrett Stidham.

[Apple Card Announcer]

Who?

[Wesley Morris]

Now, Jarrett Stidham, I'm Denver's starting quarterback tonight. What exactly is the point of this sketch? We got a great team here. I think we can win this game. Yeah, but Jared, come on.

[Jason Zinoman]

Back to you, Troy.

[Wesley Morris]

Is it that the Broncos quarterback has no personality? That Lisa Salters is bad at her job? Or that her job is just weird? And speaking of surprises, it's one part sugar and all part spice. This week on an all new quaffs, Is it that Troy and Joe Buck are so squishy and lame that it'd be funny hearing them say the word quests over and over again? Keys to the game brought to you by fanduel and oh, my God, talking quefs. All it makes me want to do is watch quests. I want to change the channel from whatever these people are doing just to watch this fake show that is also probably just as bad, but it'll definitely be more interesting than this non satire satire. So now I'm just wondering if it's time for Saturday night live to become Saturday night dead. Please, please wait. Sorry. Don't hang up. I actually know a lot of smart people who don't agree with this opinion, like my guest today, Jason Zinneman, he's the critic at the Times and, you know, he's a great thinker about comedy and late night TV in general. I just wanted to talk about the Late show going out of business and what the value of keeping a show like SNL around might be. So we're going to talk about whether it's worth saving and whether I'm wrong. Jason Zinneman, welcome to Cannonball. I'm gonna start by telling you just something that was on my mind last year.

[Jason Zinoman]

Please.

[Wesley Morris]

Saturday night live turns 50 years old. And during the year of celebration of this 50th anniversary, I mean, it went on from what, February to December? I don't wanna cast aspersions. I enjoyed a lot of it. But what I thought during that experience was, what if it just ended tonight? It was a good 50 years. Do I need a 50 first? I don't even think I needed like 37, but that's me. Where are you in terms of your relationship to this show? I mean, if it ended tomorrow, how would you feel?

[Jason Zinoman]

I'd be upset. I'd be upset. I mean, I have been where you.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, talk to me.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yeah. I mean, in fact, I think one of the greatest traditions of Saturday Night Live is wishing, is hating Saturday Night Live. Sure.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay.

[Jason Zinoman]

And specifically saying it used to be better. Right? That's what everyone does. And the cliche is true, certainly with me, that your favorite cast is your first cast. I first watched it and it was the Christopher Guest Martin short. Oh, Billy Crystal Year, unlike any other year. And I fell in love with it there. And then I got hooked on it with the, like, Jan Hooks, Phil Hartman classic, that Dana Carvey. So I love that period. Right. And that's the greatest. Right. And then you got a moment. I don't exactly track on this perfectly, but pretty close. Where you have a moment where you see other sketch shows, right? You see Monty Python, you see Chappelle's show, you see Mr. Show Key and Peele, and you're like, this is funnier.

[Wesley Morris]

Kids in the Hall, Kids in the

[Jason Zinoman]

hall, Kids in the hall. These are all more ambitious, funnier, better crafted comedy. Why isn't SNL as good as this? Right? And then you say, this is terrible, it's bad. You start hating snl. Right? I've been there. I've also felt like it would be better if it's gone. And I've now am in a new state now. Part of it, full disclosure is part of our jobs, is to follow the Stuff.

[Wesley Morris]

Sure.

[Jason Zinoman]

So I might have checked out if it wasn't for professional responsibility, but I never did check out. And I've come to see that those shows we mentioned are doing something fundamentally different than Saturday Night Live, which is what? So Saturday Night Live is actually not trying to be. It's not organized to be the funniest show possible.

[Wesley Morris]

It's not. No.

[Jason Zinoman]

It doesn't wanna be that.

[Wesley Morris]

It's not organized to be. Or it is retroactively saying, you know, we were never organized to be the funniest show.

[Jason Zinoman]

I think the way Lorne Michaels has organized the making of that show.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay.

[Jason Zinoman]

As opposed to other shows. Right. And it is deliberately not set up to be consistently as funny as it can be. Right. So what's it trying to be? Right. And what are the evidence of it?

[Wesley Morris]

I want to start with how it's not set up to do that.

[Jason Zinoman]

All right. So first off, it's live. All right. Second of all, it's weekly. Right. And it's weekly in this very peculiar way. This way has sort of developed over time with that. They write these sketches last second. Right. And the biggest thing is the cast. Right. This is the most prestigious show in comedy on television. They could have anybody they want. They always get young unknowns. Why do they do that? And I think there's a couple. What they want to be is relevant, topical and exciting. And one of the things about having young cast members is you see the Making of a Star. There's something particularly exciting about seeing one of these SNL cast members. And there's no doubt, Right. That SNL has produced more superstars in comedy than any other platform by far.

[Wesley Morris]

That's not what we're here to talk about. No, no. I mean, there's no argument for me.

[Jason Zinoman]

No, I know, but, like, I'll give you a comparison. Like, I was watching the spurs playoff game. Dylan Harper had this incredible game. And in sports, it's fun. We know Wemby's great, but. But we see this rookie do something incredible, and you're like, oh, wait, this guy's gonna be.

[Wesley Morris]

This guy's also.

[Jason Zinoman]

He could be one of the best players in the game.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Jason Zinoman]

That happens at SSDL in the way it doesn't happen in other shows consistently. And it happened this year. It happened this year with Ashley Padilla.

[Wesley Morris]

Right.

[Jason Zinoman]

And there is an excitement to that. That is part of what the show does and cares about more than getting the most polished, funniest sketches that they possibly can every week. The most polished cast every week. Right. Okay. And I Think. You know. Yes. That 50th anniversary celebration went overboard. Right. But what did it also say? Look at the interest in that show. Right? How many things?

[Wesley Morris]

You mean the network generated interest? No, no, you mean. Or you mean are like a viewer, a Saturday Night Live fans, or regular watchers interest?

[Jason Zinoman]

I mean, you're 100% right. There is, like a media interest, and there's a network pushing it. Right. But I don't think there's anything else in comedy right now that appeals to multiple generations. My kids, teenage. They don't share the same interests that their parents do. Right. They don't watch same things, but they're interested in snl. Right. It's one of the few things left in the culture where we have this common thing we can talk about over generations. And it's unique, and I think it's the remarkable thing. Right. Last year there was a book on Lorne Michaels by Susan Morrison, which I recommend, and there was a documentary by Morgan Neville. And you really see that he's a singular producer. He's the great producer of our time. He's managed to keep a television show relevant, not just on TV, but relevant for 50 years now. What he hasn't done, there's things we probably agree on. It's often terrible. The sketches are hit and miss sometimes.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, every week there's. There's a hit and miss. And I don't know about you, Jason, but I watch this show still to this day in its entirety. I go from, you know, the cold open to really, the 10 minutes to one or the 10 to one or

[Jason Zinoman]

whatever they call it.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, I'm there for most of the show, and I just feel like many times there's not one sketch here that either lets a cast member shine or they miss shine or. I just don't know how this even got out of the garage, onto the set and then into my home. These cast members aren't that exciting as a class to me. They're often indistinguishable, I find often, especially in sketches where the cast members have to be dressed the same. I can't tell anybody apart sometimes. Yeah.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

But I guess I would wonder what we lose without it.

[Jason Zinoman]

But would you agree with this? If we lost it, nothing replaces it. Nothing would fill its space. And if anything would fill its space, it would be something fundamentally smaller and of lower ambition. What I learned from the Susan Morrison book and the documentary is that it's a tremendously inefficient show. Yes, yes. It's got a ridiculous Budget that doesn't make any sense for television in 2026. You know, it's one of these, like, dinosaurs that operates like the Internet didn't happen. And they've got all of these, Ed. And one of the beautiful things about SNL is because it has all these inefficiencies. Right. And we see this in the media, too. It's like we're so damn efficient, right. That we only do these narrow things. Right. There's room for. Out of like, a lot of mediocrity or worse, for weird stuff to bubble up.

[Wesley Morris]

That's true, yes. I mean, so this plays as a potential, you know, lab for weird stuff. And look, in 50 years, I have seen some of the funniest, weirdest things that I still think about because I saw them on snl. Right. I mean, Toonce is the driving cat. Not like, even close to the weirdest.

[Jason Zinoman]

I got a Toonce is shot.

[Wesley Morris]

Not even close to the weirdest thing that's happened on the show. Right. See, I told you he could drive Toonce's.

[Sketch Performer/Voice Actor]

Look out.

[Jason Zinoman]

He turns around all over. Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

But, like, I mean, just a thing that has lodged itself like a completely illogical feat of irreverence that has, like, just. It lives in me.

[Jason Zinoman]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

The theme song lives in me. This is all to say, like, I understand the value of the show. I just think its batting average has gotten very low.

[Jason Zinoman]

Well, even if you stipulate the show's terrible, everything you say is, you know, it's no good. Right. There's no denying that it's done a good job of weeding through people and recycling new people and then reinventing itself while keeping the same bones what it is.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, yes. It hasn't changed in 51 years.

[Jason Zinoman]

But the people have changed.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes, the people have changed.

[Jason Zinoman]

And so that is like, you've got, like, a hit show and you're gonna bring these new people. That's part of the DNA of the show. Right. And I think it's one of the strengths of the show. It's one of the reasons why it's a flexible institution. And I think historically, they've always come from improv houses.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Jason Zinoman]

And there's. With some standups sprinkled in. I think a few years ago, they started to go more. Try to find people more from the Internet. Right. And the reason that I think, you know, Ashley. Ashley Padilla is successful one. She's older than most of them. She's 32. She's had some experience, and she's had specifically the Groundlings old School snl. She's actually an actress.

[Wesley Morris]

Is she the only Groundlings veteran or graduate or.

[Jason Zinoman]

I think Mikey Day and Chloe Fyman also have Groundlings who, at this point,

[Wesley Morris]

are veterans on the show.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yes, they're the older. I think they're before this shift. Right. But I think Ashley is bringing something different to the mix.

[Wesley Morris]

Chops, you wrote a wonderful piece about sort of close reading what she's been doing this season on the show. And I think one of the best sketches on this season, this year was the. I guess we'll call her the MAGA Mom. Talk about the MAGA mom sketch and, like, how the levels work in that scene.

[Jason Zinoman]

The MAGA mom sketch is a great example, I think, of sort of SNL operating at its best right now because it is about the thing that we've seen all over the place, which is. And how frustrating it can be, which

[Wesley Morris]

is somebody realizing that's the comedy of it.

[Jason Zinoman]

Ten years late. Oh, I'm gonna have a. Turns out Donald Trump doesn't always tell the truth, and I'm gonna convert. And it's about both the kind of preening naivete of that she's gathered the

[Wesley Morris]

family to sit in the living room to talk to her kids because she has an announcement. There's something I need to tell you all first.

[Jason Zinoman]

Oh, okay. What is it, Mom?

[Wesley Morris]

Is everything okay? I'm only gonna say it if after I do, you promise you will not react? No talking, no faces, no nothing.

[Jason Zinoman]

Mom, what is going on? But there's all. It's also about something bigger. It's about. So it's topical, but it's also about changing your mind and the ability to show grace to this person. Changing their mind. Right.

[Wesley Morris]

Which she asks them to show her. Which part of her windup to revealing this about herself is this character is like. But you have to be nice. And when I tell you what I'm about to tell you, you cannot react. What I have to tell you is I may have changed my mind about Trump.

[Jason Zinoman]

The levels are. She's telling them she's had this conversion, but she really wants them to get mad and to get mad at them

[Wesley Morris]

back, which speaks to our political moment.

[Jason Zinoman]

We all would rather fight with each other than actually.

[Wesley Morris]

See, I told you. I told you you couldn't handle it.

[Jason Zinoman]

That's why people hate you.

[Wesley Morris]

I feel now like he might be bad for our country.

[Sketch Performer/Voice Actor]

Oh, yeah, he's not. What I say. What I say.

[Jason Zinoman]

So it's politically smart. It's like emotionally smart. But I would argue the core of it the core, the reason it actually is funny, is her timing. She has. Nobody else would deliver those lines the way she would. There's like a musicality, a bass line to. To the way she sets them up.

[Wesley Morris]

She's listening to whatever else is. Whatever is happening with the four people on the sofa and what Alexandra Skarsgrd is doing, who plays her husband in this sketch. And she's timing whatever it is she's doing in some ways to what she's hearing.

[Jason Zinoman]

Completely, completely in the moment. You also see, again, another, I think, essential part of Saturday Night Live is the live part of it. And they're breaking the kids. The actors playing the kids are breaking in that moment.

[Wesley Morris]

The things that are happening no one could have seen coming.

[Jason Zinoman]

They're both trying not to laugh in character and as actors. Right. The fun of that, it becomes not about politics or about this family. It becomes about us watching these sketch performers trying not to break in a way that can only be suspenseful in a show that, you know is live.

[Wesley Morris]

They made me feel worried about trans people. But now I'm realizing I don't really get what the problem is. We'll come back to this live situation, but I want to come back to Ashley Padilla for a second.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yes, please.

[Wesley Morris]

Because the other thing that's great about her because you really. You convinced. I mean, I knew I liked her, but then you sort of put that spotlight on her. And then the other thing that's great about her in these sketches is, is she has a wonderful voice. There are two great voices on this show right now. The other one is Marcelo Hernandez, and they need to figure out something to do with that voice.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

He should have four characters.

[Jason Zinoman]

It's Sebastian Maniscalco.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. Hilarious.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yeah. Oh, you want me to argue the gangster? Oh, I didn't know that's what you wanted.

[Wesley Morris]

And that's an impersonation. But he's identified. He knows what's. And ridiculous about that guy.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Wesley Morris]

But Ashley Padilla, there's something just mellifluous in her raised voice.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yep.

[Wesley Morris]

If I hear a single I told

[Sketch Performer/Voice Actor]

you so, I will go see the Melania movie tonight.

[Jason Zinoman]

I think her and Marcelo are the backbone right now. But there's. I mean, I think Sarah Sherman does something specific that is really interesting and all her kind of, you know, the gore stuff that she does is interesting. And there's a few, like, I can't. I can't say this is like a great year, but this is a year that showed promise. So let's look at that the sketch I want to point to, which is Auctioneers in a Crumbling Marriage, which is with Sarah Sherman and Matt Damon. And I love this sketch. It's the 10 to 1 sketch where they take a big swing, which means

[Wesley Morris]

you're asleep, and the best sketches happen. Oops.

[Jason Zinoman]

Here's a big difference between that doesn't

[Wesley Morris]

always happen, which is why we go to sleep. I just wanted to say, like, I

[Jason Zinoman]

didn't watch this episode live, so I just, like, woke up and saw what people are talking about.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay.

[Jason Zinoman]

And they were talking about this sketch. I'm home. Honey bunny, honey bunny, honey bunny.

[Wesley Morris]

Can I get a smile?

[Jason Zinoman]

Can I get a high? Can I get a hello?

[Wesley Morris]

Honey bunny?

[Jason Zinoman]

Can I get a hug?

[Sketch Performer/Voice Actor]

Well, look who comes crawling home. Latest Sand. Where have you been, been, been, been, been, been, been, been, been, been, been, been, been.

[Jason Zinoman]

This sketch is a satire of scenes from a marriage, and it's this couple who's having a marital spat, but they're speaking in, like, the familiar cadence of an auctioneer who's saying, you know, 1000, 2000, 3004.

[Wesley Morris]

Right.

[Jason Zinoman]

And the idea is, what if these people always talk like that? Right. But without ever explaining it or underlining it.

[Sketch Performer/Voice Actor]

You said you'd be home by 8. 8:15, 8, 38, 35 with traffic. Now it's 11:45, 11:50. Do I hear 11:55, 55, 55. 55, 55. Midnight balls coming from the man past his prime at a cowboy hat.

[Jason Zinoman]

And so they start doing it, and they sort of establish the premise of the joke. And to some degree, it belongs to the genre of, like, hitting the same beat over and over again. But what makes it, I think, escalate is they start doing kind of tongue twisters.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Jason Zinoman]

Almost.

[Wesley Morris]

Almost immediately, though. Yeah.

[Sketch Performer/Voice Actor]

I know you're with them sinful girls. I know you're with Bella Bailey, Bobby, Bambi, Bertie, Bullet, Buggy, Betsy, Betty, Bonnie, Brenda.

[Wesley Morris]

And you're saying, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[Sketch Performer/Voice Actor]

Maybe you were with Betty Botter, and I bet you bought her butter.

[Jason Zinoman]

I would never buy her butter. Cause I know your butter's better.

[Sketch Performer/Voice Actor]

I know you like her butter better. Cause I bet her butter's hot.

[Jason Zinoman]

Now, how can you blame me, folks? And they get more and more difficult, right? Yes. So it becomes about language. It's a comedy of language. Right. And, you know, SNL at its worst is all about cue cards. That's what drives me worse.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, Jason, this is a huge pet peeve of mine. Me too. It's gotten more cue card.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

As the years go on.

[Jason Zinoman]

Agreed.

[Wesley Morris]

And the more fam Time there is to rehearse. This is, like, such a tangent. Anyway, Keep. No, no, no.

[Jason Zinoman]

I'm with you. I'm with you. And, I mean, I think I could justify it because of the ridiculous structure.

[Wesley Morris]

I didn't catch Matt Damon. He definitely had cue cards, but I didn't catch him looking.

[Jason Zinoman]

Neither did I. Oh, I think. I think maybe I'm wrong, but I think Sarah Sherman memorized those lines.

[Sketch Performer/Voice Actor]

I had a headache. I had a backache. I had a toothache. I was. I had a back day. I had a long night. I had a big lunch. I was tired. I had a phone call with my sister, on a phone call with my mother. I had a fight on a phone call with my sister and mother, and I had a headache. I had a migraine. And most importantly, I'm old.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, I think these were memorized. I mean, somebody was clearly there holding something they could see or however they use the teleprompter cue card situation.

[Jason Zinoman]

Right, right.

[Wesley Morris]

But I was really dialed in in a way that I'm typically not with these sketches, because I'm just, like, looking at them look past the person they're in a scene with.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

But part of what made this so thrilling was you've got these two performers who are preparing. They're so prepared.

[Jason Zinoman]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, it's funny. It's kind of awe. Awesome. You know, dictionary definition. Awesome.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

To see. And so when you see something like this and you're just like, this is what should happen every week. The cue cards drive me nuts, Jason.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

I can't take the reliance on the cue cards.

[Jason Zinoman]

And I.

[Wesley Morris]

Listen, I went back and looked at. I just was watching some old sketches just to see, like, was this always true and it wasn't or, like, it wasn't as obvious that, like, the trompe l' oeil of where the cue cards were placed and the actors were blocked must have been different or something. Cause I can't catch Glenn Close using those cue cards.

[Jason Zinoman]

Right, right, right, right.

[Wesley Morris]

You know, the great Patrick Swayze, Chris Farley dance off to become a Chippendales dancer. This is impossible. Can't we just hire them both?

[Jason Zinoman]

No, we've been through this. We've only got the budget for one dancer.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, but they're both so great. I can't decide between them. Like, I don't know. I mean, even if they are reading, Mike Myers, Kevin Nealon, and Jan Hooks play the judges of this dance off between Patrick Swayze and Chris Farley. I Don't see any cue cards happen in there. Right. And I'm not thinking about it.

[Jason Zinoman]

I know you've been put through a long, long audition, and it's been hard, but I think that in itself is a testament to how good both of you are and just how difficult our choice is. I wish I could just flip a coin and be done with it, but we can't. We're Chippendales, Marcy. Right. That's actually a great example, because this is what SNL has always done well, which is that even though some amazing writers have come through there, like, you know, George Meyer, the Toonces, all sorts of brilliant Conan, obviously, it's fundamentally about performers.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Jason Zinoman]

And that Patrick Swayze and Chris Farley, they're just. The commitment is hilarious. And it's timeless because of those performers. And that's when the cue cards kind of. Are they there? Are they not. Doesn't matter. Doesn't. Like, the lines don't matter. Like the. It's. That's why if you compare it, there are sketch shows, like I would say, you know, Mr. Show, Monty Python, which lean on the cleverness of the premise and the. The wit of the lines.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, but those are. Those are taped shows.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

You know, the same was true for Kids in the Hall. Like one of the. I mean, you know, to me, I was always happier to watch Kids in the Hall. Great Canadian sketch show.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

Than SNL most of the time. But I think that anyway.

[Jason Zinoman]

And it's possible to support your point. It's possible to do both. Like, the Ben Stiller show comes to mind.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, my God. The Ben Stiller show. One of the great sketch shows.

[Jason Zinoman]

I mean, and, like, it was that writerly. It was that performance. It was both.

[Wesley Morris]

It was both.

[Jason Zinoman]

It was both. So you could.

[Wesley Morris]

This is that show at a deep bench.

[Jason Zinoman]

Oh, my God. Yes. Yes. So great. So great. With Jean Garofalo. Oh, my God.

[Wesley Morris]

You just. I've totally forgot about the Ben Stiller show. But I watched it every week. When Ben Stiller started, I was like, yep, Ben Stiller in Living Color. To me, many weeks was a better sketch show.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

Than Saturday Night Live.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

Right. And many not live taped. Didn't matter because it's still. People broke. Right. Like, the actors would break. There'd be crazy things that would happen in these sketches that, like, you're. You can't believe it's happening in prime time, let alone in 1152. So I think there's, like, a kind of professionalism that. I mean, just like comedic Professionalism that I think is kind of missing now. And it's just too much of a crapshoot for me. Yeah, it's just too much of a crapshoot. And I'm not getting, you know, one Matt Damon out of what. How many guests did they have this year? How many episodes? 22 or something.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yeah. Sarsgaard, you had some other dudes, right? I mean, but look, look, I do think it goes into the liveness of it is part of it. Like, the guest host is a fascinating anomaly. Nothing else is like that on television. And it's a huge risk you're gonna perhaps torpedo a whole show if you have somebody who isn't as talented as Matt Damon.

[Wesley Morris]

Hello, Tom Brady.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yeah, exactly. There you go. There you go. But you could also get, like, anytime John Mulaney is a host.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Jason Zinoman]

I'm gonna be excited. I mean, you watch songs more than I do. I don't watch every single episode live.

[Wesley Morris]

I don't watch it every week, but I watch most weeks. Okay.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

So you think there are things about it. Let's just say you talked me down.

[Jason Zinoman]

I'm glad to hear it. Okay.

[Wesley Morris]

It's just how you talked me down.

[Jason Zinoman]

But I also agree. I also agree on the details of your book, your argument.

[Wesley Morris]

All right, fine. You talked me down. So we're gonna take a break. I wanna sort of expand what we're really talking about here, I think.

[Jason Zinoman]

Okay.

[Wesley Morris]

Because part of the reason that I started really thinking about this SNL cancellation question is, like, there's another show that's actually going off the air right now. And part of, like, the scandalous thought I had was, like, is the wrong show being canceled? Should the Stephen Colbert Late show, should that stay at snl Go. Had a good run. Snl, it's fine. Anyway, we'll take a break. We'll take a break.

[Jason Zinoman]

We'll talk about that. Oh, I got thoughts on that.

[Wesley Morris]

And when we come back, we'll just talk about what late night is, whether or not we need it, and why. We'll be right back.

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[Wesley Morris]

Okay, we're back. Yes, we're talking about snl, but we're also kind of talking about, like I would like to now think about what late night television is, what it is good for. What is watching network television after the news. Because that's when a lot of these shows will be. Every one of these shows is happening after your local news, right? What's like 60 years of that for 70 years of that at this point?

[Jason Zinoman]

I mean, it's a really good question. They're trying to answer this question. I think you have sort of two narratives about this that kind of contradict each other on one level. The Internet has made all of its old uses obsolete, right?

[Wesley Morris]

So I'm saying after the local news, for instance. But like, are you really experiencing Jimmy Kimmel when the local news on your ABC affiliate goes off the air?

[Jason Zinoman]

I mean, a lot of people aren't, right? And then also traditionally it was so you could joke about the day's news, what happened, right? You could sum up the day before you went to sleep. And sometimes it was kind of a sleepy, soothing joke like Johnny Carson, and other times it was a little more subversive joke, like, say, David Letterman. But now by the time late night comes around, everybody's already made jokes about the news on social media, TikTok, et cetera. So that purpose is done. And then you've got the purpose of like conversations with people promoting stuff or guests being funny. That has also been replaced by like YouTube podcasts and this kind of thing. So there's this narrative which is not entirely wrong, that late night is less and less relevant. There's less and less of a purpose to it because of the Internet. Right. At the same time, read the news. The president is attacking. I mean, this is. It's worth like pausing at how crazy this has never happened. That the president has put a target on all the late night hosts and is attacking them consistently. And arguably, you know, the most effective example of resistance didn't come from law firms or universities.

[Wesley Morris]

Not shots. Not shots at the law firm. But Keith didn't speak.

[Jason Zinoman]

Speak your truth. But came from Jimmy Kimmel. Came from Jimmy Kimmel. They protested and they pushed back Disney. They made Disney have a backbone. Right. So you can't exactly call late night irrelevant when it's the.

[Wesley Morris]

In the crosshairs of what we're gonna traditionally say is the most powerful job in the world.

[Jason Zinoman]

So what explains this? Why did people get so outraged. Outraged and push back on Disney? Is it simply because people care more about celebrities than they do about law partners? Right. I don't know. I think that late night is actually a more is as you point out, like an old form that people have watched with their families. It's become an institution. I think that it became more political, starting with the Daily Show. I should say when the Jon Stewart version. Yes. Which is 2000 live edition of the Daily show. It is now official.

[Wesley Morris]

We can call it.

[Jason Zinoman]

At 855 hours and 2 minutes of

[Wesley Morris]

this election night, the state of Florida and its 25 electoral votes with 100%

[Jason Zinoman]

of its precincts reporting will go to George W. Bush.

[Wesley Morris]

And the crowd loves it.

[Jason Zinoman]

That made late night much more political. And I think that had huge ramifications over what network late night became.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay, so we're talking about like this show which existed on a Viacom channel called Comedy Central.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

Right. Didn't have a huge viewership. But, you know, the arrival of the Jon Stewart era of the Daily show goosed these other late night shows that were also. That it was not up against, we should say. Cause I mean, for people, you just. This is important to say the Daily show starts at 11.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yep, yep.

[Wesley Morris]

These late night shows start at 11:35.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

And so you could. You're watch you. I mean, I many times would watch both.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yes. But wait. The other thing about Stewart, I think, and this relates to snl, their sketch in the Daily show, the correspondence. And the reason this is important is there was a moment when the Daily show competed with SNL as A platform for stars. Think of the number of stars.

[Wesley Morris]

I've never considered this before.

[Jason Zinoman]

Steve Carell, Ed Helms, Trevor Noah, obviously. But I'm missing something. Stephen Colbert.

[Wesley Morris]

Stephen Colbert.

[Jason Zinoman]

I know.

[Wesley Morris]

I'm Wyatt Sinek.

[Jason Zinoman]

Wyatt Sinak. I've seen the show before.

[Wesley Morris]

Great correspondence. Great correspondence.

[Jason Zinoman]

It became like snl, a place to make stars. And it really did, you're right. Not necessarily because the audience, but it had a huge impact. And even on the. I remember when, like, Letterman started to get more political.

[Wesley Morris]

Ladies and gentlemen, it's time for another new segment on the program. It's George W. Bush invigorating America's youth.

[Jason Zinoman]

Need to maintain spending discipline in our nation's capital.

[Wesley Morris]

I've had plan to protect small business owners.

[Jason Zinoman]

And it felt like a reaction to the success of Daily Show.

[Wesley Morris]

But I also think that that moment, I mean, it's also important to sort of think about, because we're talking about now, some kind of shift in terms of politics becoming much more a part of the way late night television functioned. But, you know, I mean, all throughout the Vietnam War, you know, during an assortment of national tragedies, I think what people wanted from a person like Johnny Carson, just to pick, you know, the most famous example of that person practicing the art form during these tumultuous times was to take the temperature down.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yep.

[Wesley Morris]

Right. Johnny Carson would deliver like a barbed comment about maybe Nixon.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yep.

[Wesley Morris]

You know, I haven't seen every joke he told during the Vietnam War, but I'm gonna guess he didn't make a lot of jokes about the Vietnam War. And, you know, he certainly was good at making fun of Reagan, but Reagan was kind of his homie in some way. Oh, yeah, how do you do that? I mean, it's not.

[Jason Zinoman]

How do you balance the budget? Well, balancing the budget is like protecting. You don't spend more than you take in.

[Wesley Morris]

Right.

[Jason Zinoman]

It's like protecting your virtue. You have to learn to say no, There's gotta be. Be another way. What's the second option?

[Wesley Morris]

He was, he was hardcore institutionalist.

[Jason Zinoman]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

Like, he was, he was the picture of whatever they mean by institution, Johnny Carson, even if he didn't want to be. And you know, he still represents in the minds of many people a kind of like a kind of Americana, they

[Jason Zinoman]

would say he came with the tv.

[Wesley Morris]

Right.

[Jason Zinoman]

Like, and he, I think, of course, deserves most credit for making Late Night the thing that it became. Right. And you're right, he studiously avoided any kind of politics that would get him in too much trouble.

[Wesley Morris]

Nobody was even thinking About.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yes, but let me ask you this. If some version of Carson was on today, how would we receive him?

[Wesley Morris]

He'd be Jimmy Fallon.

[Jason Zinoman]

Welcome.

[Wesley Morris]

I'm Jimmy Fallon, and I'll be your host for now. Right. I mean, he's not quite the pal and, you know, like, pet that Jimmy Fallon has made himself into, but he'd be Jimmy Fallon. I mean, the thing about the Tonight Show, I believe, is that it could never have handled a Letterman as much as Letterman wanted that job.

[Jason Zinoman]

That's a good point.

[Wesley Morris]

He wanted to host that show so bad, he would have lasted. I don't know how long he would have lasted, but it wouldn't have been long.

[Jason Zinoman]

I agree.

[Wesley Morris]

Because I think that the guardrails that come with the job, you either don't see them as guardrails or you chafe against them. So, I mean, I guess the question here. Because what we're really talking about is the end of Stephen Colbert's show. And not just Stephen Colbert's show, the Late Show. The reasons the show is being canceled include. I mean, because we. We really don't know. I'm putting. I'm making. I'm making quotes with my fingers like, the show costs, the show loses. I've been. I've read, like, as much as $40 million a week.

[Jason Zinoman]

We don't know.

[Wesley Morris]

But I'm just telling you what I. No, no, I know what I read.

[Jason Zinoman]

No, no, of course.

[Wesley Morris]

But also Skydance, Paramount merger, you know. Yeah, yeah. Like the interest in eliminating a friction point that also, if you believe what is also a very expensive, you know, thorn in your side. If you need the administration to approve this deal, why not just make something go away and you save a lot of money? Whether he's beloved or not, I mean, maybe somebody was like, he'll just find another job. It's fine.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

But, you know, he's not the only person making this show every day.

[Jason Zinoman]

No, no. Just to be clear. Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

He's an enormous staff.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yes, yes.

[Wesley Morris]

And so I don't know what, really. What are we losing when this show no longer comes on Monday through Friday?

[Jason Zinoman]

I think, first of all, I think he's the best conversationalist on late night right now. I think there's a soulfulness to Stephen Colbert. He had Keanu Reeves on, and he asked him, what do you think happens when we die? Keanu Reeves, what happens when you die? Right. He had a pause and he was like, I know that the ones who love us will miss us. One thing I know is people will miss you. You can't imagine Jimmy Fallon happening on Sideshow. You can't really imagine. I can't?

[Wesley Morris]

No. They turn it into a game on Jimmy Fallon.

[Jason Zinoman]

They turn it into a game like,

[Wesley Morris]

we're gonna play what happens when you die.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yes, yes, yes. There was Sabrina Carpenter.

[Wesley Morris]

You ready to go? We're gonna Velcro you out the side of the wall, and Questlove is gonna throw a basketball at your head while you answer the question, what happens when you die?

[Jason Zinoman]

Yes, yes, yes. No, there is a.

[Wesley Morris]

You know, I love that. By the way, I enjoy the games on the Jimmy Fallon show.

[Jason Zinoman]

Look, look, there's a play. And look, that's winning. That was on Ellen's show. That was on this show. But what's gone is there is to some degree, what we lose depends on what replaces it and what is replacing it. Byron Allen's Comics Unleashed.

[Wesley Morris]

Please, Jason. I. I just ate. This is not the place to be trying to release my battles.

[Jason Zinoman]

You know what Norm MacDonald said about being on his show Comics Unleashed? He said comics have never been more leashed. It's not gonna cause anything.

[Wesley Morris]

This show, by the way, for anybody who has never watched it, is just four comedians sitting around shooting the shit.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yes. And often three of them. You've never heard of three of them.

[Wesley Morris]

Are we counting Byron?

[Jason Zinoman]

Okay, good point.

[Wesley Morris]

I have never heard of most people that pass through comics.

[Jason Zinoman]

My job to follow comedy. So I know one. I know one at most, but not much more than that.

[Wesley Morris]

So I don't know. I feel like I'm actually. This is. What you're saying is really occurring to me now. I'm done with my CBS affiliate news, my local New York news. Like, good night. They've said goodnight to me. And you mean that I'm gonna be sitting here watching Comics Unleashed.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

Which I'm assuming CBS isn't even making because it's been being made for years.

[Jason Zinoman]

Well, here's the interesting thing. It's a completely different business model. They're leasing it to Byron Allen. They can't lose money on it, Jason. They can't. Stop it.

[Sketch Performer/Voice Actor]

He bought it.

[Jason Zinoman]

Stop it. He's selling the ads.

[Wesley Morris]

Great.

[Jason Zinoman]

So to me, fantastic.

[Wesley Morris]

But to me, he's renting the space.

[Jason Zinoman]

He's renting the space. He's renting the space. But so what does that mean? To me, that says low risk because you can't lose money if you're leasing it. Low reward. Comics Unleashed. The ceiling is very low.

[Wesley Morris]

I'm now talking to you. I'm talking to you, and I'm feeling sad.

[Jason Zinoman]

Er, yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

About what has transpired. I mean, I think that there is a value to this time slot, and I think it's the same value that it had at the peak of the format, you know, when our parents were considering whether to have us.

[Jason Zinoman]

Right, right.

[Wesley Morris]

And it's the comfort and stability. It's the thing that I think Jimmy Fallon is sort of always being dinged for trying to provide in terrible times, which is Sabrina Carpenter Velcro with a basketball coming at her head. I don't even know if that's the approach.

[Jason Zinoman]

But I love this take. Cause no one makes this case. No one makes the defense of Jimmy Fallon. I think you said Carson would be like Fallon.

[Wesley Morris]

That's like the best, the nicest thing I've ever said about Jimmy Fallon.

[Jason Zinoman]

Anyone said about Jimmy Fallon, certainly in the media.

[Wesley Morris]

I don't think he has any of Johnny Carson's qualities. I just think that, like, the point of him is similar. Right?

[Jason Zinoman]

Yes. I'm gonna like. Yes. And this take. Cause I think it's a good take. And I think that Fallon also, as you put it, lowers the temperature. And despite what I think, people think they know exactly what they're doing. And who do I mean by they? Who's producing this? Right. It's much.

[Wesley Morris]

It's Lorne Michaels.

[Jason Zinoman]

It's Lorne Michaels. Lorne Michaels understands things that no other producer does.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, my God, Jason. Fuck you.

[Jason Zinoman]

He gets.

[Wesley Morris]

Get out of here.

[Jason Zinoman]

He understands that. Yes, the media's gonna hate Jimmy Fallon and maybe the ratings will, you know, whatever, fluctuate. But he's providing this old school showbiz need that hasn't vanished. Right. There's still people who want that.

[Wesley Morris]

I am rolling my eyes so hard

[Jason Zinoman]

on you right now,

[Wesley Morris]

you're gonna make me cry. I hate you.

[Jason Zinoman]

I did my part then. I did my part.

[Wesley Morris]

All right, fine, you. I mean, I already believed this in many ways about Fallon, but now I'm just. You know what I'm doing? I'm just like, doing the. By extension Saturday Night Live. I still think the show needs some reupholstering. And if. And if it went off the air tomorrow, still wouldn't shed a tear because I did all that when it turned 50.

[Jason Zinoman]

But what about tonight? Show went off the air. How would you feel?

[Wesley Morris]

I'd be fine. But the problem that you are identifying, though, is that nothing comes in its place.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yes, right. Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

But like, let's just say something does. Right?

[Jason Zinoman]

Okay.

[Wesley Morris]

I'd like to introduce you to a little game we play. It's called Late or Hate.

[Jason Zinoman]

Oh, no. Okay,

[Wesley Morris]

Is this person hosting a late night show, or do you hate them too much to let them try?

[Jason Zinoman]

No,

[Wesley Morris]

just give you a bunch of names.

[Jason Zinoman]

All I gotta say is late or hate.

[Wesley Morris]

Late or hate.

[Jason Zinoman]

All right, that's it. Wait, is this who I. This is a prediction or what?

[Wesley Morris]

I. Nah, just like, what happens if what happened is.

[Jason Zinoman]

Let's do it.

[Wesley Morris]

Amy Poehler.

[Jason Zinoman]

Oh, late. Late.

[Wesley Morris]

Z.

[Jason Zinoman]

Way late. Late.

[Sketch Performer/Voice Actor]

No.

[Wesley Morris]

What would it be like? I mean. Cause we already know she does the show. But the problem, the thing that we're talking about is as an institution, what would a person like Zwe need to do?

[Jason Zinoman]

Zwe's got range.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, sure.

[Jason Zinoman]

Zwe had a YouTube show. Then she went to Showtime, had two seasons, was canceled. I thought she was dumbfounded.

[Wesley Morris]

She can't be killed.

[Jason Zinoman]

She cannot. She cannot be killed. She's better than ever. Now she's back on YouTube and she's not quite doing the same. Sort of like she's doing some of the, like, how many black friends you have, like, trolling. But it's not. It's a little more traditional. And I think she's a talent who could just like all these. The long lasting late night hosts evolve into a host. The fact that she was able to reinvent herself now twice, subtly tells me that she's got something that could work.

[Wesley Morris]

I would definitely watch it. Tina Fey as a host. Yes. You can say hate. We know it's contextual.

[Jason Zinoman]

Okay, okay.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, later. Hate. Jason.

[Jason Zinoman]

Geez. I mean, I love Tina Fey, but

[Wesley Morris]

as a host, we all do.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Marc Maron.

[Jason Zinoman]

No, hate. I mean, you couldn't. You know, that's too neurotic.

[Wesley Morris]

Also, I don't. I mean, talk about chafing against the format. I just don't think he'd enjoy the job. Alana Glazer.

[Jason Zinoman]

Uh, hate.

[Wesley Morris]

Kanan Thompson.

[Jason Zinoman]

That's interesting.

[Wesley Morris]

Like, longest serving cast member on Saturday Night Live. Like, a real stalwart in that. He still is. He. He is so professional on that show that you barely notice, you know that he's just doing support work in a lot of these sketches. He's not even trying to get a laugh.

[Jason Zinoman]

That's.

[Wesley Morris]

I never thought a Bill is funny anyway.

[Jason Zinoman]

Still is funny. It's actually kind of an inspired idea because. Right. What is he great at? Right. As you say, like, if he could do.

[Wesley Morris]

What's up with that? Every night, he can play off people.

[Jason Zinoman]

What does a talk show do? He makes the other person funny. Plays the straight man, has the timing, sets it. He actually has a lot of the skills of a great talk show. So the question is, does he want it? You know, it seems like he's pretty entrenched where he is, but entrenched.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, he could retire tomorrow.

[Jason Zinoman]

That's true. But he doesn't. Why?

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, that's a great question.

[Jason Zinoman]

I know.

[Wesley Morris]

Like, I mean, it's just a. It's a good job, right? It's a good job, but it's a good job. He obviously. What is he. Is he 50 yet? Is he, you know, mid-40s?

[Jason Zinoman]

I have no idea how old I am.

[Wesley Morris]

Like, I mean, I just think he seems comfortable in a way that doesn't bother me.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yes. No, I agree.

[Wesley Morris]

Other people doing that, it might annoy me a little bit. But yeah, that show needs a uncle.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

You know, it needs an uncle. So. Wakinan Later.

[Jason Zinoman]

Oh, later. Late. Late.

[Wesley Morris]

Nick Kroll.

[Jason Zinoman]

Oh, you know who I just saw

[Wesley Morris]

in a insurance commercial? I don't like.

[Jason Zinoman]

I'm gonna say late.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, yeah. I like this thing.

[Jason Zinoman]

I think Nick Kroll has got kind of a variety, like a kind of vaudeville era.

[Wesley Morris]

He would come out as somebody, Right. He would be doing a shtick.

[Jason Zinoman]

He's like a. There aren't talents like Nick Kroll anymore in that. He's like a. He could do kind of a little bit of everything. I actually think that could work. It's funny because you don't want. The late night host isn't necessarily the most brilliantly talented person. No, you don't want, you know, Eddie Murphy's not gonna be a late night.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, he's on this list. So Eddie Murphy, later. Hate.

[Jason Zinoman]

Oh, my God. You're not gonna get me to say hate for Eddie Murphy. But he wouldn't be a good. He's not a good fit. You want him as a guest, not a host.

[Wesley Morris]

He's a great guest. He's not a host.

[Jason Zinoman]

But that's why I say, like, Kenan makes all the sense in the world. Nick Kroll, he could do characters, he's

[Wesley Morris]

sharp, and he could carbonate the format too. Right. I feel like he. I just would not trust him to come out as Nick Kroll every night. Right, Right. He'd be coming out to do a monologue as the like Six Flags old man or something. I don't know.

[Jason Zinoman]

Well, what about this? Let's say you're king of the world. Saturday night live dies. We replace it. Listen, wait a sec, wait a sec, wait a sec. We replace it with a talk show with the DNA of a sketch show. Right? So Nick Kroll does tape sketches for half hour. Okay. He does talk with one of his John Mulaney or whatever for another half. And then you could have the last half hour for either weird sketches or some weeks you wouldn't have it. What do you say?

[Wesley Morris]

I say greenlight the show. But what you're describing to me, and we'll just end here. What you're describing to me is the thing that made Colbert great in the first place.

[Jason Zinoman]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

Which is the Colbert Report.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yes. Yes. Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

One of the great feats of performance in the history period of being other people, let alone yourself, I would say.

[Jason Zinoman]

Underrated. Wildly underrated. The Colbert Report was like the Daily show in that it was a fake news show, but he was completely in character. So he would say one thing and then he would mean something else.

[Wesley Morris]

Right.

[Jason Zinoman]

And then he had a real guess on who would be in their real voice. So he had to respond to them in real time.

[Wesley Morris]

As in character.

[Jason Zinoman]

In character. But also having the second meeting and having it also be funny. It was an incredible improvisational high wire act that, like comedy nerds fell in love with and were amazed by, which is why he got the show.

[Wesley Morris]

But that says to me, like, what I now wonder as we're talking about this, like, just to end, is like, do you think he has another one of those in him? Impossible. Like just. I don't know how he did it as many nights as he did it, but could he do it again?

[Jason Zinoman]

I think it's possible. Right? I mean, what that looks. Look, Conan provides the example. There was no greater institutionalist in late night than Conan o'. Brien. He was offended when they asked him to move the Tonight show back half an hour because it would damage the franchise. Right. But he showed all those late night hosts that you can reinvent yourself on podcasts, on Hot Ones, on an HBO travel show, and you could have a bigger impact and you could host the Oscars. Right.

[Wesley Morris]

And be instantly one of the great Oscar hosts.

[Jason Zinoman]

Exactly. And he's of all the hosts, he's closest friends with Colbert. And so I think Colbert is going to do. My guess is he's going to use the Conan thing as a model and have, like, a collection of projects which we can, you know, may or may not be like Colbert.

[Wesley Morris]

We'll see.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yeah, we'll see.

[Wesley Morris]

I hope it is. All right. Jason Zinnamon, thank you.

[Jason Zinoman]

This is a pleasure. This is so much fun talking about Cannonball.

[Wesley Morris]

Thanks for doing it.

[Jason Zinoman]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

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podcast is supported by Neon and the film the Christophers from Academy Award winning director Steven Soderbergh. The Christophers stars Ian McKellen and Mikaela Cole as painters facing off over an art world forgery in an escalating game of playful psychological cat and mouse. Nick Shager of the Daily beast raves, Ian McKellen is superb and calls the Christophers a front to back delight and further proof that Soderbergh remains one of American cinema's most adventurous auteurs. The Christophers is now available everywhere you rent or buy movies.

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This podcast is brought to you by Made in Cookware Made in partners with multi generational artisans and some of the world's best chefs to craft professional quality cookware, knives and kitchen tools. Their products are trusted in Michelin star restaurants worldwide and designed to perform just as well in your home kitchen. From five ply stainless clad to carbon steel, every piece is built to last and made to actually make you a better cook. Discover award winning [e-mail].

[Wesley Morris]

This episode of Cannonball was produced by Janelle Anderson and John White. It was edited by Austin Mitchell. This episode was engineered by Daniel Ramirez. It was recorded by Matty Masiello, Kyle Grandillo, Nick Pittman and Samantha Winter. It features original music by Dan Powell and Diane Wong. Our theme music's by Justin Ellington and Bobby Doherty took the picture for our show art. Our audience team is Katie o' Brien and Maria Abdulkoff. Our video team is Felice Leon and Brooke Minters. This episode was filmed by Danieli Sarti and Jadzia Erskine. It was edited by Jeremy Rocklin and Amy marino. We're on YouTube.

[Jason Zinoman]

Shocker.

[Wesley Morris]

We'll be back next week. Thanks for listening everybody.

[Podcast Sponsor Announcer (Made in Cookware)]

This podcast is brought to you by Made in Cookware, Made in partners with multigenerational artisans and some of the world's best chefs to craft professional quality cookware, knives and kitchen tools. Their products are trusted in Michelin star restaurants worldwide and designed to perform just as well in your home kitchen. From five ply stainless clad to carbon steel, every piece is built to last and made to actually make you a better cook. Discover award winning cookware at maidencookware. Com.