‘Michael’ Is Pure Propaganda

Summary

Podcast Summary: ‘Michael’ Is Pure Propaganda

Podcast: Cannonball with Wesley Morris (The New York Times)
Original Airdate: April 30, 2026
Host: Wesley Morris
Guest: Eric Hines, Director of Film Programming at Jacob Burns Film Center

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Wesley Morris and film expert Eric Hines dissect the massively popular but heavily criticized Michael Jackson biopic, "Michael." Described as “pure propaganda,” the conversation explores why the film—despite poor reviews—has become a huge box office hit, and how it navigates the controversies of Jackson’s legacy. Through pointed critique and candid banter, Morris and Hines discuss the film’s omissions, its treatment of truth, and the problems with estate-approved biopics. They also brainstorm the kinds of biopics that might do justice to Jackson’s complicated life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. First Impressions: The Movie as Empty Spectacle

• Opening Analogy: Morris compares the movie’s seduction to the smell pumped out by Subway sandwich shops—"comforting, engineered, but ultimately unhealthy." (02:00)
• Content Overview: The film traces Jackson’s life from age 10 to 30, focusing almost exclusively on familiar, choreographed moments and omitting deeper or controversial aspects.
• Estate Involvement: Produced with the cooperation of the Jackson estate, the movie “is defending Michael Jackson against accusations nobody in it is making... exhibit A in our ongoing public trial of how to live with our memories of this man by just giving in to the familiar comforts of that bread smell.” (05:43)

2. Audience Response vs. Critical Reception

• Box Office & Ratings: The film grossed over $200 million on its opening weekend, becoming the highest-grossing biopic ever with a “97% audience rating on Rotten Tomatoes—higher than Casablanca.” (06:31)
• Audience Reaction: Morris recounts sitting next to an audience member repeatedly saying “facts, facts” during flattering lines about Jackson in the film, underlining the movie's appeal to fans’ existing perceptions. (06:53)

3. Why Does This Movie Exist?

• Eric Hines Perspective:

  "It exists for IP, right? I mean, it's sort of that simple. It exists to consolidate an asset and to promote an asset and to make sure that that asset is safely profitable from this point forward." (08:15)

• Lack of Insight: Both agree the film resists critical or nuanced exploration of Jackson’s life, prioritizing profits and fantasy over truth.

4. Handling – and Avoiding – Controversy

• The Allegations:
  The movie ends before the onset of child abuse allegations, instead portraying Jackson’s relationships with children as innocent and charitable—“so many sick kids in this movie. He's like a one man Make a Wish foundation.” (04:57)
• Failed Acknowledgment: Original drafts allegedly included references to later allegations, removed for legal reasons. The final version leaves ambiguous, defensive scenes with children—resulting in “an admission of something” without properly exploring it. (13:06)
• On Memory Exploitation:

  "The memory exploitation that's happening here is the thing that is hard for me." – Morris (22:58)

5. Glaring Omissions: Janet Jackson & The Jackson Family

• Janet's Erasure:
  Both are baffled by the near-total omission of Janet Jackson, one of the world’s most famous pop stars and Michael’s actual sibling:

  "Which is to take one of the most famous people on the planet and basically pretend that she does not exist in the family to which she was born." (13:40, Hines)

• Indistinguishable Siblings:
  None of the Jackson brothers are defined as individuals; all serve merely to prop up Michael’s uniqueness. (14:38–15:29)

6. Depiction of the Jackson Family & Black Family Narratives

• On Familiar Tropes:
  The film relies on conventional biopic portrayals—abusive father (Joe Jackson), supportive but backgrounded mother, and little depth for other family members.

  "The attempt to make this a sitcom… really, really, really, really requires you to just not care about what stick figures everybody else is. And it's not like Michael Jackson's a fully completely developed person either." (18:38, Morris)

7. Moments that Work: “Beat It” Sequence

• Highlight:
  The "Beat It" music video recreation—the only segment where “something is happening.” Michael brings together Bloods and Crips on a soundstage to “dance off” their differences. Ridiculous, but at least vibrant and memorable. (19:24–22:34)

8. Critics vs. Populist Success

• Critics’ Role:
  Hines highlights the rare critical consensus that the film is both aesthetically poor and morally dubious, in defiance of mass audience adoration:

  "I'm proud because it's not surprising that this is a huge hit. But I am somewhat surprised by how unified the criticism has been, because I think it's appropriate and it's not easy." (28:13)

• Morris:

  "I think there's a moral dimension to its badness, a moral dimension to his bad, but also a real identifying what it is, addressing it, and taking the film to task for it." (28:44)

9. The Dilemma of Biopics, Estate Control, and Documentaries

• Biopic as Fanfiction:
  “The movie is the very definition of fanfic. It asks nothing of us, and it gives us only the man of our dreams and our memories… an ATM for the estate.” (05:58)
• Documentary vs. Biopic:
  Hines laments that estate involvement limits depth and truth, favoring empty nostalgia over meaningful examination—contrasting with documentaries like Leaving Neverland:

  "Documentary can complicate things... whereas the biopic is sort of just picking a version and going with it." (34:12, Hines)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Bread Metaphor:

  "It's like the sweet, warm smell of carbs wafted all over the sidewalk. This movie is all too happy to keep giving us bread and concerts.” (06:13, Morris)

• On the Janet Erasure: (Hines at 13:40)

  "One of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever seen a movie do, which is to take one of the most famous people on the planet and basically pretend that she does not exist..."

• On Audience Participation:

  “The woman in the couple... just tapping her finger against her thumb and just said, ‘facts, facts.’” (06:53, Morris)

• On Critical Consensus:

  "No, the critics are actually doing their jobs. And everyone else is just... wants to just tune out the kind of problems and enjoy the hits." (29:12, Hines)

• On Estate Tactics:

  "If you have enough money and power, you can sort of make something true, even if it’s not true." (30:12, Hines)

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Biopic Alternatives: What Could a Real Michael Jackson Film Look Like?

Potential Models (36:56–46:32):

• Gandhi/Last Emperor Model: An epic “soup to nuts” approach, accompanying Jackson from birth to death—truthful, sprawling, and cinematic.
• Todd Haynes’ Superstar & I’m Not There: Experimental, fragmented films using dolls, multiple actors, or POV shifts—suggested as radically more honest and compelling approaches to capturing complexity.
• Mommie Dearest: A version told from the perspectives of those harmed or affected by Michael.
• La Bamba (41:44): A biopic that's rooted in cultural authenticity, made by and for the community from which the subject emerged.
• Interview-Centric Film: Using the format of his famous TV interviews to structure a narrative that doesn’t require estate approval but faces truth directly.

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Suggested Further Reading

• On Michael Jackson by Margo Jefferson:

  "It is the single greatest work of criticism I have ever read about this man. What it means to love him, what it meant for him to have walked this earth and lived the life that he led. It's just—it's fantastic." (47:13, Morris)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:36 – 07:32: Morris’s introduction, first impressions, and film summary
• 07:33 – 16:00: Conversation with Eric Hines; why the movie exists as “IP consolidation”
• 16:00 – 20:00: Family depictions, Joe Jackson, Black family tropes
• 19:10 – 22:34: “Beat It” sequence analysis
• 22:58 – 30:31: On memory exploitation, documentary vs. biopic, legacy management
• 36:56 – 46:32: Exploring alternative, honest models for biopics
• 47:13: Book recommendation: On Michael Jackson by Margo Jefferson

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Tone & Style

The conversation is candid, playful, and incisive, blending pop culture references with serious criticism. Both Morris and Hines alternate between wry humor—often poking fun at the film’s absurdities—and passionate calls for honest, complex storytelling about iconic, controversial figures.

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Bottom Line: The episode delivers a sharp, often fierce dissection of "Michael" as a film designed to comfort fans and protect the Jackson legacy—at the expense of truth, complexity, and real cinematic value. Morris and Hines’s central message is a plea for more daring, honest, and formally innovative approaches to depicting cultural legends—ones that respect both art and audience maturity.

Transcript

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[Wesley Morris]

Wesley Morris and this is Cannonball. Today it's Michael Woo. Do you know what I'm after? Look, the movie's bad. Like really, really bad. But like many a bad movie, it's also a massive hit and we're going to talk about why. Also, we've got a few suggestions for biopics that we wish the people who made Michael had watched before they went and made this one. Sometimes when I'm walking around outside, I'll encounter a very familiar, extremely enticing aroma. It is the smell of an oven of baking bread. And no matter what, I will stop in my tracks and be like, oh my God, I want that. That, of course, is the smell of of a Subway sandwich shop trying to reel me in by pumping out its most comforting fragrance. But there's a problem with that tantalizing smell. It's evil. I thought about that smell while I sat down to watch Michael, the new biopic about Michael Jackson. That Sigh, big enormous Sigh was produced in cooperation with the Michael Jackson Estate. Just have all these songs in my head. You wanna be a boy, you wanna be a man. Just gotta get em out. The opening shots are just high water pants, white cotton socks pushed down into a pair of black loafers, and I could practically taste the smell of baked bread being pumped out onto a city sidewalk trying to seduce and disarm and sweet talk me into some food I shouldn't swallow into gluten I can't tolerate. These loafers are preying on the almost pavlovian memories you have of those socks and those pants and that hemline. You know what those heels and those toes and ankles can do. So forget about your qualms, your questions, your misgivings. Just watch that man dance. Hee hee. That is pretty much all this movie wants us to do. We see Michael Jackson go from about 10 years old in 1968 to about 30 years old in 1988. We see Joe Jackson, his dad, take off his belt and beat his little butt. We see him watch a lot of TV with his mother, Catherine. We see him read Peter Pan before bed. We see him rescue a chimpanzee from its own abuse and exploitation. We see him go solo and experience the stratospheric fame that made him feel like part of everybody's family. But mostly what we see is Michael Jackson once again, sing and dance, sing and dance. Now the movie knows that we know about the allegations of child molestation, about the trial he endured over one of those allegations. It knows a lot of us have seen the HBO documentary that Dan Reed made in which two men remember in vivid detail what they say Michael Jackson did to them as boys. It also knows that some of us believe them. But the movie ends before all that happens. Instead, it goes to hilarious lengths, as in like laugh, to keep from crying. Lengths to provide an innocent backstory for his relationship with these children. The kids in this movie are always accompanied by parents, moms who really love them. Some Michael or the kids are in a hospital dying. There are so many sick kids in this movie. He's like a one man Make a Wish foundation in its crazy way. The movie is defending Michael Jackson against accusations. Nobody in it is making this thing. It does not care about being a good movie. It wants to be exhibit A in our ongoing public trial of how to live with our memories of this man by just giving in to the familiar comforts of that bread smell. It turns out that a lot of us are more than willing just to do that. We're like, make it a weekend. Excited. It's been a week and Michael is already a massive hit. More than $200 million worth served. That I am told, is the best opening weekend ever for a biopic. Sorry, Freddie Mercury. Sorry, Elvis. And it looks like very few of us left the theater unsatisfied or as baffled or sad or mad as I did. It's got a 97% audience rating on Rotten Tomatoes. That's a higher score than Casablanca. I got a little preview of this audience energy. The day I went to see Michael, I was sitting next to a couple, a man and a woman. And there's this moment where Michael's lawyer, who's played by a wig wearing Miles Teller, that guy turns to him and he says, you're a legend. There's nobody like you. There'll never be anybody like you. I don't know why I'm making this guy a gangster. Except he is. He's one of the people who helped make this movie. Anyway, the woman in the couple, that woman, while he's saying this, she just. She was just tapping her finger against her thumb and just said, facts, facts. Now, look, I'm not trying to argue with her, but this movie is giving us facts we already know. We all agree upon those facts. The bad dad, the rat, the chimp. The chart domination. The skin, the nose, the hair, the belt buckles. Oh, my God, so many belt buckles. It's like he took all Joe's beatings and just wrapped them around his body every time he went to perform. The loafers, the socks, the global fainting spells at the live shows, the stardust. I wanted to believe in the Michael Jackson this movie gives us, but this guy's not a person. He's like a cartoon of genius in this movie. And, you know, an ATM for the estate. The movie is the definition of fanfic. It asks nothing of us, and it gives us only the man of our dreams and our memories. And. Look, I get it. Times are dark. We are hungry for something engineered to make us feel even hungrier. It's like the sweet, warm smell of carbs wafted all over the sidewalk. This movie is all too happy to keep giving us bread and concerts. I couldn't just sit alone with my feelings here. I had to talk to my friend Eric Hines. He's the director of film programming at the Jacob Burns Film center in Pleasantville, New York. He's also one of my favorite people to talk to about movies. And he's been talking to me about Michael Jackson for a quarter century. And I figured he's the perfect person for me to ask. What is going on here? Eric Hines.

[Eric Hines]

Wesley Morris.

[Wesley Morris]

What's up? Welcome. Let's just. Let's just go right in.

[Eric Hines]

We're here for a reason.

[Wesley Morris]

What is this movie? You're confident. Why does it exist? You're strong. Why is it happening? You're beautiful. You're the greatest of all time. I really. You know, from the minute it started, I just felt bad. I could feel somebody's strings pulling me up this way. And they're gonna make him dance, and they're gonna make me dance to his dancing. Ugh. Go on.

[Eric Hines]

Well, I mean, it exists for ip, right? I mean, it's sort of that simple. It exists to consolidate an asset and to promote an asset and to make sure that that asset is safely profitable from this point forward. It feels that way from the very first frame.

[Wesley Morris]

That's your language.

[Eric Hines]

Well, that's. I don't like this language. I don't want to spend any time with this language. But this is what this film exists for. But it's funny, like, you. You. Like. I didn't. You know, I felt that from frame 1 2. And yet I also found myself, despite myself, not liking it, but wanting it to actually show me something. Tell me something.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Eric Hines]

Give me something.

[Wesley Morris]

I don't know, an insight, a story. I mean, because it was made by all these people who know him, who claim to know him, who claim to care about him. There are brothers and sisters in the executive producer credits. I don't know if you caught this, But Harvey Mason Jr. Who runs the Recording Academy, the people who give out the Grammys, and he's an executive producer, the Grammy organization is thanked at the end. Like, it's just wild. So I was assuming, or hoping there'd be some kind of. I don't want to go so far as to say revelation, but just some insight into our understanding of who this person was.

[Eric Hines]

But even that is too risky for what they're trying to do. But it's interesting that you could say there could be an approach to the way that this is written, the way this is directed, so that anything controversial or problematic or worrisome or human could be entirely avoided. But instead, it suggests these things. It kind of knows that you know them.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Eric Hines]

Yes. And then gives you an opportunity or allows you to feel like it's okay he's a weirdo, but he's kind of. It makes sense. You understand why he's a weirdo. You understand why he doesn't have any friends. So it's okay that he has a chimpanzee. It's okay that, you know, wait, back up.

[Wesley Morris]

I actually want to sit in this arrival of Bubbles moment.

[Eric Hines]

Sure.

[Wesley Morris]

Because it is truly in the world of, like, a real family. This is something that we'd all have to sit down and discuss. You know, Michael has furnished us with this lavish residence. We all live on this compound together. And now our landlord has imported a chimp that he, by the way, has saved from abuse and exploitation. He, Bubbles. I can't believe I'm saying this, knowing everything I know about the way black people have been talked about in this country. But Bubbles is a mirror. He is an avatar for Michael's own suffering. If he can't be saved, he can at least save this monkey.

[Eric Hines]

Mm.

[Wesley Morris]

Just the way the family is just like, oh, you know, that's Michael.

[Eric Hines]

Let's just say the way that the family reacts. It's like different strokes or something like that. It's. It's. It's just like, oh, yes, there goes Arnold, you know.

[Wesley Morris]

You talking about Willis?

[Eric Hines]

Yeah, he's a little eccentric.

[Wesley Morris]

Gary Coleman, by the way, does make an appearance on a tv. They are watching Different Strokes on TV at some point in this movie. So you're talking about, like, hoping for a revelation or an insight. And I feel like the movie is, like, suppressing all revelation and insight, and then revelation kind of squirts out. Anyway, sure. I am thinking about the. Well, I mean, let's just talk about the agenda of the movie. Right. Because I believe there was a version of it that was supposed to include some acknowledgement in its last act of the allegations of child molestation against Michael Jackson that took place in 1993.

[Eric Hines]

And that was taken out because of legal reasons, because that plaintiff couldn't be represented in any sort of fashion in

[Wesley Morris]

any work of, you know, fiction depicting Michael Jackson. He could not be depicted as. Well, fine.

[Eric Hines]

And I feel like almost everything regarding young boys or young kids in this

[Wesley Morris]

movie was part of the reshoots. No.

[Eric Hines]

Was actually building towards whatever it was actually going to do. Now it's just kind of there now throughout the film. You get whenever there's an opportunity for him to visit with sick kids or to sort of, like, you know, connect with a young person. He does. And then it's just kind of there. It's so strange. Cause I feel like that makes sense if you're kind of ceding us to the idea that he's gonna be. From the film's point of view incorrectly.

[Wesley Morris]

Somebody's gonna try to take advantage of.

[Eric Hines]

Oh, no, no. But he's really doing that now. It's just kind of, you know, it's just an odd thing to include at all when you're not gonna explore it at all.

[Wesley Morris]

But now it feels like an admission of something. Right now it feels like a defense against a thing that we also remember about Michael Jackson. There's just so much myth making here based on what we think we remember about this man. But I'm like, well, what about all the other stuff?

[Eric Hines]

I remember plenty of stuff that you remember that's not there.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, I remember Janet Jackson.

[Eric Hines]

Well, here. Come on.

[Wesley Morris]

Who's she? Who's she in the.

[Eric Hines]

When I reached out to you and I saw this before you had a chance to see it, and you said, wait, I gotta see it first. All I wanted to talk was Janet Jackson.

[Wesley Morris]

Was the de Janeting of the Michael Jackson movie.

[Eric Hines]

We can't spend the entire time on this, but I could, because it doesn't make. It is like one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen a movie do, which is to take one of the most famous people on the planet and basically pretend that she does not exist in the family to which she was born.

[Wesley Morris]

Now, it's insane, to be fair to.

[Eric Hines]

The Jackson kids are all there, but Janet doesn't ever exist in the world of this film.

[Wesley Morris]

I guess she didn't want to be involved in the making. Sure. I don't know what involvement would have entailed. There are different camps in the family, apparently, about supporting the existence of this thing. Some of his kids are fine with it, but one of his kids is not. These are all sort of extra narrative things that really don't have a lot of bearing for me on the text of the film. And in the text of the film, as you say, this very famous person is not there. But to be fair to the text

[Eric Hines]

of this film, she's an historical figure.

[Wesley Morris]

None of the brothers are distinguishable from each other. Eric, can you tell Jermaine from Tito, from Marlon, from Randy?

[Eric Hines]

No.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, yeah, by age.

[Eric Hines]

You can sort of glean by age.

[Wesley Morris]

But I mean, the other siblings who are involved are perfectly willing to be erased for the sake of whatever payout royalty comes their way as a result of this, you know, trip to the atm. I really can't tell these brothers apart. And I think that it's all in the purpose of serving Michael Jackson's specialness. Right. Like, we all see our own individual identities to the brilliance and importance of this man. Because we in the audience, we didn't come for Tito.

[Eric Hines]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

May he rest in peace. That's not why we're here. We didn't come for Janet. It's called Michael. So if you came for Janet, that's on you.

[Eric Hines]

But I didn't come for Janet. I just want her to be acknowledged that she's a person, that she exists in the family.

[Wesley Morris]

But it's indicative of the corners this movie is willing to cut.

[Eric Hines]

Sure, sure. And knows that it can get away with it. Well, can we talk about the family a little bit? Sure. I'm curious about. There's something about it seems to really. As much as this is about Michael Jackson, the most famous person on the face of the earth, we all know everything. That's also kind of like concentrating on the family for a good portion of the film.

[Wesley Morris]

Let me tell you something. In this life, you're either a Winner or you're a loser? Y' all want to work in a steel mill like me for the rest of your days? Yeah. Cause I sure as hell don't.

[Eric Hines]

Is it, like, attempt to make this a representative family? Is this a representative black family? Is this a representative black father? There's something about this that feels like, familiar to me because of biopics, but also because of portraits of black families that feels like, should this be familiar? Is that okay, that it feels familiar?

[Wesley Morris]

Uh, I think that, you know, there's. That the Jackson's Family movie, which came out in the early 90s, really does a, I would say, memorable job. It is iconic in that its iconography involves Joe Jackson's unending abuse of these kids.

[Eric Hines]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And that is the lasting impression that movie left, at least on me. And that it basically could be used to explain any number of things about what befell Michael Jackson and what Michael Jackson chose to do in the wake of living in that house with Joe Jackson. So Joe Jackson doesn't have to go full on Ike Turner here. He can just be like Joe Jackson, flavored, as played by Colman Domingo, who does with hair and makeup. Go all in. I need to think. I told you what to think. So rather than torment Michael Jackson about how he looks, we just get one line where Joe is like, what does he call him? Big nose. Go away, Big Nose or shut up, Big Nose. That's it. And that's enough to plant the seed in our minds that, yeah, Joe Jackson's the problem here. Margo Jefferson wrote this great book called On Michael Jackson, in which she does a lot of speculating about things that happened to Michael Jackson that had nothing to do with Joe Jackson's abuse, but includes it. But it also has to do with, like, how Michael Jackson developed a sexuality at all, how he came into his own as well came into his own as a sexual being. Like, how he learned sex, essentially. And that's compelling to me. I think that the Jacksons don't really represent a typical black family, because they're not. Right.

[Eric Hines]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

You know, I think that the attempt to make this a sitcom about people living in a house together, this movie's attempt to turn those relationships into a sitcom with a little bit of dramatic tension is interesting because it really, really, really, really requires you to just not care about what stick figures everybody else is. And it's not like Michael Jackson's a fully completely developed person either.

[Eric Hines]

Not at all.

[Wesley Morris]

He just goes in stained glass. Everybody else sits in a pew. I mean, can we talk about the One good music sequence in this movie. The one interesting music sequence in this movie.

[Eric Hines]

I'm curious what you're gonna say.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, I think it's the Beat it moment.

[Eric Hines]

It is great. No, it is really good. I mean, it's. It's a fable, as you said before.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Eric Hines]

But it's. It's a pretty good sequence. Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Why did it. I mean, if it works, why is it working?

[Eric Hines]

Well, I mean, because it's. It's a sort of thing where stretching the truth or not, it's an incredible thing to say. We're gonna bring in like the Crips and the Bloods into a soundstage and we're gonna like dance it off.

[Wesley Morris]

We're gonna work out decades of gang violence and animosity with a little bit of choreography.

[Eric Hines]

And they're gonna just like think of Michael's the coolest.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes. The looks of awe on these guys faces is extraordinary. But I mean, that whole sequence is interesting just because something is happening, right?

[Eric Hines]

Yes, yes.

[Wesley Morris]

Like Michael Jackson one night looks up at the news. I believe he's in the studio where his second home. But anyway, he looks up at a TV at some point and sees that there's, you know, it's a story about black men being shot and killed. He sees this and he's like, oh, so sad. It's, you know, black on black crime. Terrible. Goes to bed, I believe. Wakes up because he can't sleep. Alive with inspiration. And then suddenly he's in the studio and the camera is zooming along the control board as he has a revelation. I believe he makes a phone call. And then what happens?

[Eric Hines]

I think he makes a phone call to folks who got some connections, people he knows that might know some people on the street.

[Wesley Morris]

The streets, the streets.

[Eric Hines]

And they bring together in a sound stage the Bloods, the Crips, all the break dancers, all the kids from the streets. And they get together and they dance it off.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, it's extraordinary. Cause Michael Jackson is leading this. I'm gonna call it a community dance class. And it also is the Beat it video.

[Eric Hines]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

And it also is the Beat it song. It's all. I mean, again, like we've. Like this, we'll say it again. This is a fable of how a song got written. But it feels good in the moment because it's so ridiculous. And it is yet another group of people signing a petition they did not know they were signing. Because the Bloods and the Crips need lawyers. And they too should have some say in how they're depicted but whatever, they're on board in this movie with Michael Jackson having these moments of inspiration.

[Eric Hines]

Well, and there is yet another layer of characters who are just there to just marvel at Michael. That's kind of their only function is to marvel at Michael.

[Wesley Morris]

Just be like, oh, my God, this guy. You know what? Gang war's off. It's over. You know what?

[Eric Hines]

And history let me take out my.

[Wesley Morris]

I'm done. We're done. Michael fixed it. We're out. I'm beating it.

[Eric Hines]

History says that's where it all ended. Dennis Hopper never had to make colors. It just ended right there.

[Wesley Morris]

Saved us from colors. Thank the Lord. Okay, we're done. I just feel like, I think the memory exploitation that's happening here is the thing that is hard for me because I.

[Eric Hines]

Well, because I'm curious about that term, memory exploitation.

[Wesley Morris]

It's a very powerful thing. And I can't think of another person with whom we have this kind of relationship where it's, you know, until 1988 was mostly positive. You know, even beyond 1988, when dangerous comes out in 92, he is trying to get out in front of all of the things that, that, that are gathering in the press about him. And he, without really asking us to defend him, defended him. Right. Like, I mean, there was a huge part, especially among black people, there was a real, you know, we've been down this road before. We've seen needless persecution. We've seen people dragged through the mud. Not Michael. They can't do this to Michael. And it was also a little easier because it seemed like the people accusing him of, you know, the abuse were white families. And one of the things that makes that Leaving Neverland documentary that the estate which is responsible for this movie tried, you know, they've essentially, they sued and got it expunged from hbo. No longer is watchable through HBO streaming service. One of the things that's powerful about that movie, obviously, is like the amount of time and care spent in getting these two men to tell the story of their relationship to Michael Jackson. And it goes from like the happiest, most mind blowing time spent with this man to the memories of the dark turns it took with respect to the allegations of sexual molestation. And they're very graphically explained and laid out in the film. In Leaving Neverland, I remember hearing those and kind of understanding how at least a kid could get involved in the life of Michael Jackson. Yeah, I don't know if you had

[Eric Hines]

this because you were a kid and you were enraptured by.

[Wesley Morris]

I Loved him.

[Eric Hines]

Yeah, I loved him, sure.

[Wesley Morris]

And if Michael Jackson somehow found his way to my front door. Yeah. I'm letting him in. And I think my mother probably is, too. Right.

[Eric Hines]

And you think that he could be your friend.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Eric Hines]

And you'd think he would care.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Eric Hines]

I mean, and he'd be safe.

[Wesley Morris]

There are so many photographs. I mean, just kids were such a part of the Michael Jackson experience.

[Eric Hines]

But those scenes also bring up. And I don't understand. I don't get. I don't know if I know the personal history here. I don't know what this is based on, but this bodyguard figure.

[Wesley Morris]

Just have all these ideas in my head. Just gotta get them out and do it.

[Eric Hines]

Michael, not a little boy anymore.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, yes. Oh, I'm glad you brought him up. Cause I almost forgot. He's present in every single scene.

[Eric Hines]

He's like, probably the number two character in the film, but I don't know. Is that based on somebody?

[Wesley Morris]

I think he's a real person. He's probably a composite of a couple people, I believe. I don't want to. I don't remember now, but I know that there was a person because both James Safechuck and Wade Robson talk about this figure in Leaving Neverland. They talk about this guy, or they talk about a man who I believe is this bodyguard. And he just. The other thing, that's another thing that kind of spurts out. The more the movie tries to, like, repress. It's giving this guy more lifetime personality than a Janet Jackson. Right. And so it also makes you wonder what else this guy would have seen, what else he would have known, where else he would have whisked Michael Jackson into and out of, you know, who was he opening the doors for? Because he was. He was in the house. He was at Neverland. But yet here he is as a kind of like, human Kevlar, you know? I don't know. This movie is so weird for. As bland and uninteresting as it is.

[Eric Hines]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

You know, it's just there's so many strange things about it.

[Eric Hines]

Well, I like what you're saying. Like the kind of pressing down on it and things kind of squeak past. It's sort of like the idea of, like, the more they try to hide things from us, the more visible it becomes.

[Wesley Morris]

There are more shots of Peter Pan than there are Katherine Jackson. There are more loving shots of Peter Pan than his own mother. Okay, so, you know, this isn't working for you. This is not working for me. You know who it is working for?

[Eric Hines]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Millions of other people. Who's bad? Is it us?

[Eric Hines]

No, no. I actually. I'm proud of our friends in the critical establishment, people who are writing about this film, for not taking the bait of anticipating that this is going to be a big popular film and try to find their way to kind of endorse it in some way. I'm proud because it's not surprising that this is a huge hit.

[Wesley Morris]

No.

[Eric Hines]

But I am somewhat surprised by how unified the criticism has been, because I think it's appropriate and it's not easy.

[Wesley Morris]

You mean when you say unified, you mean that it isn't just that the movie is bad. I think there's a moral dimension to its badness, a moral dimension to his

[Eric Hines]

bad, but also a kind of real Identifying what it is, addressing it, and taking the film to task for it. Even though it's this kind of juggernaut that's gonna be massive. So it's one of these moments where you could say, oh, my goodness, the people have spoken. They're right. The critics are just killjoys. I'm like, no, the critics are actually doing their jobs. And everyone else is just kind of wants to just tune out the kind of problems and enjoy the hits. And that's kind of what people do,

[Wesley Morris]

just play the hits, man. I just want the feel good parts.

[Eric Hines]

Cause we all. We want to feel good about our childhoods. We want to feel good about ourselves and what we feel when we listen to that music. I get it. It makes sense. These songs mean a lot to me. Like, those memories mean a lot to me, too. I don't want to feel like I can't have them. But there is a way of doing this film that allows you that while also acknowledging that there is a complicated figure that you may not entirely endorse the idea that you're going to somehow just think that he's a cuddly weirdo and a genius. And that's why you get to enjoy the music, is that you're going too far. You don't have to do that. And at that point, you're really actually aggressively trying to undo the truth that a lot of people have suffered from. And that's why I think we're also in this kind of era, which is terrifying because I think we're living in a government that sort of believes this, that if you have enough money and power, you can sort of make something true, even if it's not true.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, that's where the estate comes in, right?

[Eric Hines]

And so the estate is basically. And the fact that this Documentary can't even be seen in America because they've kind of legally made it so that it goes away. You can kind of make these inconvenient truths go away. That's what's insidious. I think that we're capable as a society, as a culture of holding, holding the things that matter to us without then becoming, you know, glorify a figure like this.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, I cannot speak for tens of millions of people, but I think there's probably a mix of feelings among the people who are going to see this film. I think overwhelmingly, a lot of people really do just probably want to not think about anything other than this imaginary Michael.

[Eric Hines]

And the film allows them to. Right. It's a thing whether or not they want that, they're getting that and they're okay with it, so.

[Wesley Morris]

But they also don't know whether or not they. How they would feel, Right. If they went to see a version of Michael where, you know, Geordie or, you know, one of the other kids who was part of that trial were part of this story. Right. If you also got your beat it moment and your thriller moment and your bad moment and the constant juxtaposition of, like, having the audience at some point sing the words themselves to human nature. But the movie's not asking us to hold two things in our minds at

[Eric Hines]

once, but that in some ways, it's lowest common denominator. It's easy. It's like no one actually really wants to think about these things. No one wants to think about what Michael Jackson did or may have done or the things that are not wonderful about Michael Jackson. No one really wants to think about that. So to me, it's not even that. I mean, like, it's just, let's give the best version of this guy we love that we want to be able to love him. And you're giving us an opportunity to love him. Great. Like, it's not. To me, it's like. Like you could. You might also walk away and go, I know it's kind of a myth. I know it doesn't get into stuff. I know I don't. That doesn't sit that well with me.

[Wesley Morris]

And that could be people who are leaving the theater right now.

[Eric Hines]

I'm. I, you know, but I'm also glad that I got to just sort of appreciate the things that are great about Michael Jackson.

[Wesley Morris]

Right.

[Eric Hines]

And the film is allowing them to do that.

[Wesley Morris]

I also think it's important because you're you. And, you know, one of the things, one of, like, a huge aspect of your, of your interests, Eric, is nonfiction filmmaking. Right. Like, I mean, you have a deep knowledge, great passion for a real commitment to the ongoing proliferation of an engagement with nonfiction filmmaking. Is there a part of you that goes to a movie like this and sees the ways in which it is violating all kinds of, I don't know, truth oriented approaches to this person and think, oh, and this is also happening on the grave of a very good piece of nonfiction filmmaking. Right?

[Eric Hines]

Right. Yeah. No, I mean, I think about, I think it's probably one of the reasons why this mode, this genre is one of the least interesting and most distasteful for me.

[Wesley Morris]

I agree. You talking about the movie biography. These so called biography.

[Eric Hines]

The movie biography in relation to what you're saying in terms of like, what can documentary do is documentary can complicate things. Documentary can take a moment and provide more nuance and facets to somebody to puzzle over who somebody is, puzzle over what to think and what to feel and what happened. Whatever those, whatever the approaches might be for documentary. Whereas the biopic is sort of just picking a version and going with it.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh my God.

[Eric Hines]

The picking a color and keeping the

[Wesley Morris]

color P I C K. Yeah. Wow. Okay, We're gonna take a break.

[Eric Hines]

Yep.

[Wesley Morris]

When we come back, we both dislike the genre of movie making. I would like to spend a moment just maybe thinking through some useful examples of it. Some, like, very possibly good examples of it. All right, we'll take a break. We'll come back. We're going to talk about good biopics.

[Eric Hines]

Okay.

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[Wesley Morris]

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[Eric Hines]

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[Wesley Morris]

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FDIC subject to credit approval. Okay, we're back. And here we are with a Michael Jackson movie that is like, you know, the most popular movie on the planet right now. And neither of us likes it. But I do wonder if there are ways in which it could. The next time somebody, the next time the estate decides it wants to take another bite of the apple. I don't use that metaphor loosely. What could it do? What forms could it take? I was watching Michael Jackson's movie and I was just like, you know what I kind of miss? And you're going to not like to hear this economist Gandhi.

[Eric Hines]

Wow.

[Wesley Morris]

I am a Muslim and a Hindu and a Christian and a Jew and so are all of you.

[Eric Hines]

Okay.

[Wesley Morris]

I miss the 4 hour mega movie about one person's effect on humanity.

[Eric Hines]

Big old mega movies. Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

I missed the soup, the nuts version of a person's life that lasts for four hours, has a great director, a lot of interesting moments, a lot of boring moments, but you're being taken somewhere.

[Eric Hines]

And it's also because there's more to it. There's more breadth, there's more stories, there's more points on the kind of chronology that are being covered.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, Michael Jackson can with. I mean, you could really get into some business if you go soup the nuts. You know what I mean? Like Katherine Jackson gives the birth and everything else takes over. And we, we, we are there with him that terrible day in 2009 where it all, it all ends.

[Eric Hines]

Sure.

[Wesley Morris]

And we go on this amazing journey that takes some twists and turns and lasts for four and a half hours. But, but we will have gotten somewhere powerful and useful. And I think, I wonder.

[Eric Hines]

Yeah, it's hard to dispute that. That would not be compelling. That would be really compelling. There's a lot to cover. But that's the last thing that this film's gonna do. The last thing. It's about omission. It's about how do we not include like, you know, half the Alphabet? We have to somehow not include half the Alphabet. You can't go Superman.

[Wesley Morris]

Half the Alphabet.

[Eric Hines]

You can't go super.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, this is like, this is vowels only P through R. Like, what are we doing? All right, well then what's another model that theoretically could work for the Michael Jackson story?

[Eric Hines]

Well, another one would be the Todd Haynes approach. Either the superstar Karen Carpenter story, which is a truly, truly great film and a great way of solving for this, or I'm not there superstar. The Karen Carpenter story, of course, is this incredible story, you know, story about Karen Carpenter and all told through Barbie Dolls and voiceover acting. Karen. And it's incredibly powerful and beautifully told. Where am I?

[Wesley Morris]

You're in the hospital, dear.

[Eric Hines]

You collapsed on stage from exhaustion and mass malnutrition.

[Wesley Morris]

You'll be here five more days.

[Eric Hines]

Another film that sort of caught up in legal issues because of the music and because the estate was not happy with the end product. That's kind of why we're in this era now where we only can have estate approved projects. But is a actually incredible portrait of sympathetic portrait of Karen Carpenter.

[Wesley Morris]

It is one of the. Well, that's the other thing, right? There's a heart to that movie. It is honest about her life and the use of the dolls both amplifies and destabilizes while also weirdly humanizing this person. The other thing that's great about that movie with respect to doing it for Michael Jackson is there were the dolls. Yeah, he had his own. Remember the song?

[Eric Hines]

The song.

[Wesley Morris]

It's Michael. Michael. You don't remember the song for the Dolls?

[Eric Hines]

I don't remember the song for the Dolls.

[Wesley Morris]

His feet got the beat.

[Eric Hines]

He's cool and he's neat. It'.

[Wesley Morris]

It's Michael. Michael. And it would be like, you get the glove, you get the socks, you get the loafers, you get the pants that don't fit my fit, you get all of it. It's Michael. Anyway, I love you, Michael Jackson. The Michael Jackson doll. New from ljn.

[Eric Hines]

And then there's I'm not there. The Bob Dylan.

[Wesley Morris]

I think that's a great use of trying to figure out how Michael.

[Eric Hines]

This kind of fragmented, fractured portrait where a different actor plays Bob Dylan. A different eras of his life.

[Wesley Morris]

I can change during the course of a day. I wake and I'm one person.

[Eric Hines]

And when I go to sleep, I

[Wesley Morris]

know for certain I'm somebody else.

[Eric Hines]

It's interesting to think of that being applied to Michael Jackson. Would be in some ways, yes. It would be how his Persona is evolved. But it'd be, I think, a lot more about us. About us and how we respond to him and the relationship we have with him at different eras.

[Wesley Morris]

I love this idea. Okay. I've got a very sort of like hot example in terms of no one would ever touch it. But what about just doing the mommy dearest version of Michael Jackson? No more hangers. You know, Mommy dearest, of course, being.

[Eric Hines]

It sort of does at moments in my house.

[Wesley Morris]

The great Joan Crawford movie biography as told mostly from the point of view of the two children. She was not very good to as a mother. Daughter. Who cares as Much about the beautiful dresses I give her as she cares about me.

[Eric Hines]

Who is Michael Jackson in this?

[Wesley Morris]

He's Joan. What are we doing? Oh, but you know what, Eric? What if it was Mommie Dearest, but Michael was all of the characters.

[Eric Hines]

Oh, wow, that's great.

[Wesley Morris]

I don't know how it works.

[Eric Hines]

No, I like that.

[Wesley Morris]

I don't know how it works.

[Eric Hines]

I like it.

[Wesley Morris]

But, like, he's everybody. He's everybody. I mean, listen, the estate's not going for it.

[Eric Hines]

No. The problem also is that Michael Jackson famously cannot be anybody but Michael Jackson. Have you ever seen Michael try to. I mean, I mean, yes, he's actually pretty good in the Wiz. I like him as Scarecrow, but come on. Have you seen Moonwalker? You'll see what I can do.

[Wesley Morris]

You'll see.

[Eric Hines]

I mean, come on. He cannot act. He wanted to be Fred Astaire. He wanted to be appropriate.

[Wesley Morris]

But he. But I mean, the thing about Michael is. I mean, not only was he a collaborator, I mean, he is one of the great appropriators of all time, of course. Like a human synthesizer. If he. I mean, the funny thing about this movie is he's like looking at. We see him watch Singing in the Rain for, like, a nanosecond. We see there's James Brown on. In the background. All the people he stole from and was inspired by.

[Eric Hines]

I would have. I would. Yes. I would have given up every reservation that I have for the Michael film. If there is a scene where Daryl Hall. Where he approaches Daryl hall and says, can I take the beginning?

[Wesley Morris]

No, don't do it, don't do it, don't do it.

[Eric Hines]

I can't go for that. You would have put into Billie Jean.

[Wesley Morris]

We should just. You know what we should do? Ocean's Fifteen, where Michael is just ripping off all the banks of the great stylists and singers. Oh, this is sounding really good, Freddie. This is a. I think this is gonna be a hit. And everybody loved it as a thing.

[Eric Hines]

Cause he would do something with it.

[Wesley Morris]

Kenny Loggins. I mean, I mean, listen, talk about reparations. Michael was on it before we even had a word for what to really, really call it. But I mean, again, like, there are just so many interesting things you can do with this man that are not moral, immoral denials of reality.

[Eric Hines]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

So just keep that in mind to state as you proceed making your money.

[Eric Hines]

You mentioned, in this man's name, Gandhi. And I think there was, like, Lawrence of Arabia, there's Last Emperor, as these kind of epic versions. Is there a One that's more standard that you actually do like, because it kind of works on those terms.

[Wesley Morris]

Is there one that works for you?

[Eric Hines]

I have one.

[Wesley Morris]

What? La Bamba, the Richie palace story. I love that Ricardo Valenzuela had his

[Eric Hines]

family, his talent and a dream. Because La Bomba's kind of a miracle that it exists. You know, it's like this sort of written, directed by this kind of, like, legend. This sort of let, you know, Luis Valdez, who's kind of a poet, playwright, and had a small moment where he somehow got the gig. It doesn't make any sense.

[Wesley Morris]

Wait. But talk about why that movie works as a model.

[Eric Hines]

Probably works because it's coming from a place. It's coming from, like, Californian Latino experience, Chicano, like art and culture. That, yes, it winds up having this package of a biopic. But it feels real, it feels authentic.

[Wesley Morris]

It's important to say, too, that we had forgotten about Richie Valent at this point. Right. This movie kind of reignited an interest in his music. So it kind of. All of it comes from nowhere. The director, the stars, the music and

[Eric Hines]

the man and then made hits out of these songs.

[Wesley Morris]

Right.

[Eric Hines]

So there's that. That's the one that thinks. I think, of anything that you think of that's like, along those lines that you kind of go back to.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, I think there's a. I would love to see the Michael Jackson movie that. Just talking to Martin Bashir or Diane Sawyer or Oprah Winfrey. Just do the interviews. You don't need the estate's permission for that. That would be extraordinary.

[Eric Hines]

Really? Truly. Yes. Okay. I think we arrived somewhere. That's what we're looking for.

[Wesley Morris]

You can send Your checks to 600 28th Avenue, care of Eric Hines and Wesley Morris, please. Eric, we did it.

[Eric Hines]

We did it. Thank you so much.

[Wesley Morris]

We, Michael.

[Eric Hines]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And we cried.

[Eric Hines]

We had to. We got through it. We can move on with our lives now.

[Wesley Morris]

All I want to say is, they don't care about you, Michael. That is Dick. And say what it was. They don't care about you. Thank you, Eric.

[Eric Hines]

Thank you, Wesley.

[Wesley Morris]

Before we go, I just want to say really quickly that if you are just hungering to read something truly magnificent and powerful and deep about Michael Jackson, look no further than on Michael Jackson by Margo Jefferson. It is the single greatest work of criticism I have ever read about this man. What it means to love him, what it meant for him to have walked this earth and lived the life that he led. It's just. It's fantastic. On Michael Jackson by Margo Jefferson Help yourself.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

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[Eric Hines]

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FDIC subject to credit approval Instacart makes grocery shopping easier and just because you're not doing the shopping yourself doesn't mean you don't care how it's done. With Instacart Shopper notes, you can get particular about what you want right in the app. Like rotisserie chicken that's extra crispy steak with marbling the Romans would have loved, and lettuce you'd actually pick yourself. Just leave a note for your shopper so they can get it right for you without having to ask. That way you can get groceries just how you like. Download the Instacart app and shop today. This episode of Cannonball was produced by John White, Elissa Dudley and Janelle Anderson. It was edited by Austin Mitchell and Lisa Tobin. Caitlin Love did our fact checking this week. Daniel Ramirez engineered this episode. It was recorded by Matty Masiello, Kyle Grandillo and Nick Pittman. Dan Powell and Diana Wong did the original music. Our theme music, as always, is by Justin Ellington. Bobby Doherty took the photo for our show art. Our audience team is Katie o' Brien and Maria Abdulkoff. Our video team is Brooke Minters and Felice Leon. This episode was filmed by Alfredo Chiarapa, Lauren Pruitt and Andrew Smith. It was edited by Jeremy Rocklin. Mark Zemel in and David Her. We're on YouTube if you didn't know like and subscribe next week. They write the songs that make the whole world sing. That's a real song. It's called I Write the Songs. This Wildfire season Smokey Bear has a reminder for all of us.

[Eric Hines]

Only you can prevent wildfires.

[Wesley Morris]

For more than 80 years, he's taught us how to prevent unwanted wildfires through his tips, like using the Drown Stir Drown Feel method for putting out campfires. Every responsible action makes a difference. Learn wildfire prevention [e-mail] brought to you by the USDA Forest Service, your state forester, and the Ad Council.