‘Modern Love’: Zendaya and Robert Pattinson on Marriage and Secrets

Summary

Cannonball with Wesley Morris: "Modern Love" Crossover

Episode: Zendaya and Robert Pattinson on Marriage and Secrets

Date: April 9, 2026
Host: Anna Martin (The New York Times)
Guests: Zendaya and Robert Pattinson

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Overview

This episode is a special crossover where Cannonball shares an episode of the New York Times’ "Modern Love," hosted by Anna Martin. Anna sits down in Los Angeles with Zendaya and Robert Pattinson, stars of the new film The Drama, to talk about relationships, secrets, marriage, and what it truly means to know another person. The discussion blends insights from their film with personal reflections, a playful debate about how much you should know about a partner, and consideration of intimacy, vulnerability, and boundaries in love.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Premise of The Drama and Knowing Your Partner

Timestamp: 04:35 – 05:49

• Zendaya and Pattinson play Emma and Charlie, an engaged couple whose bond is tested when Emma reveals a life-changing secret a week before their wedding.
• Anna Martin describes the film as both "so romantic" and "so stressful," focusing on the anxiety that "we can never truly know everything about them" (a partner).

2. Would You Be Friends With Your Characters?

05:49 – 08:49

• Robert Pattinson: Finds Charlie "very easy to influence," which can be "a little bit untrustworthy," but he sees potential.
  Quote: “He's a romantic, and I think everybody who's a romantic is kind of slightly delusional and blind to lots of things.” (06:26)
• Zendaya: Emma "needs more genuine friends," since her identity is so wrapped up in Charlie’s world.
  Quote: "So much I think, of her identity is in his life because we don't actually meet her own friends... She needs some of her own friends." (07:42)

3. The Right Time for Big Disclosures

09:16 – 10:49

• Reflecting on Emma's confession, Zendaya says timing is dictated by narrative, but in real relationships, "you will leave with ambiguity."
• Pattinson admires the addictive pursuit of the “idealized romance,” but stresses “if you knew everything about the other person, literally nothing is perfect.”
• This tension between seeking perfection and living with mystery runs through both the film and their real lives.

4. Debate: How Much Should You Really Know?

11:11 – 13:12

• Zendaya: Advocates knowing at least the "core" of your partner, to grow and change together safely.
• Pattinson: Prefers boundaries, saying, “Very little. It's gross,” about knowing every detail. He claims too much information can “suffocate a relationship.”
  Memorable moment: Playful back-and-forth exposes their different stances and personalities.

5. Intuition in Relationships

13:30 – 15:21

• Pattinson describes knowing instinctively from the first meeting how a relationship will go.
• Zendaya shares that with her partner, she felt “peaceful and calm,” not nervous—a sign of knowing it was right.

6. Recalibrating Relationship Realities

15:38 – 19:20

• Referencing a movie scene where Emma yells at a reckless driver, Anna explores moments when you suddenly see a familiar person in a new light.
• Both guests discuss seeing parents as real people, not just "superheroes," especially as Zendaya became the family breadwinner.

7. Tiny Love Stories Segment

21:29 – 32:22

• Zendaya and Pattinson read and react to real-life love stories from NYT’s “Tiny Love Stories” column.

  a. First the Ugly, then the Beauty (read by Zendaya, 22:05)

  • Both see vulnerability as context-specific; Zendaya finds the story “beautiful,” while Pattinson warns oversharing can sometimes feel manipulative if not genuine.

  b. There's a Logic to Love (read by Pattinson, 25:49)

  • The story of attempting to “flowchart” a relationship prompts a comic aside—Pattinson admits he’s not sure what a flowchart is (“Is that a maze?”).
  • They both weigh the roles of logic vs. intuition: Zendaya admits to "pro/con lists" (she's a Virgo!), while Pattinson relies on “vibes.”
  • Quote: “Any chart. Any chart starts to bring out a chart in a relationship, it's over already.” (Zendaya, 30:21)

8. Privacy vs. Public Interest: Speculation About Marriage

31:17 – 32:35

• Zendaya addresses persistent speculation about marriage in her private life: Quote: “I am a very private person... We do our best... not to hide ourselves from the world, but just to, I think, preserve things for ourselves so that we can maintain that joy just within ourselves and our loved ones.” (31:17)

9. When Did You Feel Most Seen?

32:56 – 35:49

• Pattinson: Feels deeply seen by his partner, sometimes “better than I know myself,” and appreciates the “pure curiosity” from his young child.
• Zendaya: Feels seen and safe with her partner, friends, and family, especially appreciating how people hold “all the past versions of me.”
  Quote: “I feel really known by... my partner, by, like, my friends, by my family. I think that's when I'm happiest.” (35:04)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On romantic delusion:
  Robert Pattinson (06:26): “Everybody who's a romantic is kind of slightly delusional and blind to lots of things.”
• On friendship in relationships:
  Zendaya (07:42): “She needs more genuine friends.”
• On secrets and safety:
  Zendaya (12:13): “Hopefully you feel safe enough with me that you want to share.”
• On intuition:
  Pattinson (14:35): “There's a reason your body is afraid of them.” Zendaya (15:06): “I actually feel more nervous when I'm away from you than when I'm with you.”
• On relationship privacy:
  Zendaya (31:17): “We do our best... to preserve things for ourselves so that we can maintain that joy just within ourselves and our loved ones.”
• On being truly seen:
  Zendaya (35:04): “I feel really known by... my partner, by, like, my friends, by my family. I think that's when I'm happiest.”

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Episode introduction and film premise: 04:30 – 05:49
• Character friendships and analysis: 05:49 – 08:49
• Big secrets and timing: 09:16 – 10:49
• Debate on knowing your partner: 11:11 – 13:12
• Intuitive relationship “knowing”: 13:30 – 15:21
• Seeing loved ones in a new light: 15:38 – 19:20
• Tiny Love Stories reading and discussion: 21:29 – 32:22
• Privacy/marriage speculation: 31:17 – 32:35
• Moments of feeling truly known: 32:56 – 35:49

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Tone & Style

• Conversational, playful, at times gently combative—in line with the chemistry between Anna, Zendaya, and Pattinson.
• Philosophical but warm: blending vulnerability with a willingness to laugh at themselves.
• Both Zendaya and Pattinson use humor and candidness to deflate tension and shed light on complex emotional issues.

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Summary

This episode offers a genuinely intimate and witty exploration of what it means to love, keep secrets, and try (and fail) to truly know another person. Zendaya and Pattinson bring both the tension from their on-screen roles and the depth of their off-screen perspectives, making for a dynamic conversation that manages to be wise, funny, and refreshingly honest about the messiness of romance and the boundaries we set in our personal lives. Whether recalling moments of sudden, uncanny recognition in relationships or how family becomes more human as we grow, both stars offer a mix of practical wisdom, personal vulnerability, and levity that brings the theme of "Modern Love" vibrantly to life.

Transcript

[Anna Martin]

All aboard. Choose your perfect Caribbean escape with Princess Cruises. Maybe you spend a day relaxing on the top deck, golden sun, a refreshing pina colada, and nothing on your schedule except dinner and a show. Other days, you embrace a tranquil shore, snorkel mask in hand, ready to explore white sand beaches and crystal clear waters. The best part, relaxation and discovery are both on the itinerary. Sail to the Caribbean with Princess Cruises. Visit princess.com or contact your travel advisor to book. Princess Cruises shipped registered to Bermuda.

[Robert Pattinson]

Hey, everybody, it's Wesley.

[Wesley]

And we here at the Cannonball team

[Robert Pattinson]

are gonna take a couple weeks off. And in lieu of us giving you a new Cannonball episode, we would like to give you. I, Wesley, would like to give you an episode of Modern Love, one of the New York Times podcasts hosted by Anna Martin. And the episode we're gonna give you is a conversation she has with Zendaya and Robert Pattinson Laura Loosely about their movie the Drama, and also about relationships and love and getting along with people. I have seen this movie. I have my own questions. They will be answered in a future episode of Cannonball. But in the meantime, here is Anna Martin talking to Zendaya and Robert Pattinson on Modern Love.

[Anna Martin]

Love now and did you fall in love last fell.

[Robert Pattinson]

I love her.

[Zendaya]

Love was stronger than anything.

[Anna Martin]

Can I love you more than anything

[Robert Pattinson]

Anything there's to love Love.

[Anna Martin]

From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. And today on the show, we have two guests, Zendaya and Robert Pattinson. The two of them star in a new movie called the Drama. They play an engaged couple who's about to get married. And when I watched this movie, I had two opposite reactions at once. On the one hand, I was like, they are so romantic. And on the other hand, I was like, I'm so stressed out by this, I need to put my hands over my eyes if I'm going to continue to watch this film. I think the reason the drama hit me in this way is because it plays with a very real anxiety, this idea that we can know a partner so well, but we can never truly know everything about them. There's always a chance they're going to reveal something that takes us by surprise, maybe even something pretty shocking. I met up with Robert and Zendaya in LA and we talked about how this question, if you can ever really know someone, shows up in their movie and in their real lives, stay with us.

[Solana Pyne]

If you're a parent of a teen or have teens in your life, it can be hard to figure out the right way to approach social media and technology. Ultimately, if you feel like your teens are ready, there are tools to help Instagram teen accounts have automatic protections for what your teens see and who can contact them. Plus time management tools like daily time limits and Sleep mode. And Instagram will continue adding built in safety features to help create age appropriate experiences. Learn more about teen Accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens [e-mail] teenaccounts that's instagram.com teenaccounts now is your time

[Wesley]

to get into a new Dr. Horton home by taking advantage of its national Red Tag sales event. This Friday, April 10th through Sunday, May 3rd. Stop by any of its participating communities and find select red tag homes at incredible pricing. So whether you're buying your first home or looking for an upgrade, you don't want to miss the red tag sales event. Starting this Friday. Discover the Dr. Horton Difference. Tap your screen now or visit Dr. Horton.com Dr. Horton America's Builder and equal Housing Opportunity Builder I'm Dane Brugler. I cover the NFL draft for the Athletic. Our draft guide picked up the name the Beast because of the crazy amount of information that's included. I'm looking at thousands of players putting together hundreds of scouting reports. I've been covering this year's draft since last year's draft. There is a lot in the Beast that you simply can't find anywhere else. This is the kind of in depth, unique journalism you get from the Athletic and the New York Times. You can [e-mail] subscribe.

[Anna Martin]

Zendaya and Robert Pattinson hello. Thanks for being here. Welcome to Modern Love.

[Zendaya]

Thank you for having us.

[Anna Martin]

The two of you are in a new movie called the Drama. You play an engaged. I liked that.

[Robert Pattinson]

Every single question we think the same thing at the same time is quite embarrassing.

[Anna Martin]

Two one. Yes, yes. That didn't really work that time. You played engaged couple.

[Zendaya]

Natural, you know.

[Anna Martin]

Totally. We won't force it, but I hope it happens again. You play an engaged couple, Emma and Charlie. They're so in love. They're perfect for each other. And then a week before the wedding, Emma reveals something that I'm not going to spoil. You have to see the movie to figure it out. But it causes Charlie to wonder if he even knows this woman at all. And suddenly this bond that felt so strong is full of chaos. There's all this doubt. Charlie's spiraling, wondering if the wedding should still even happen. Emma's watching Charlie being like, can we recover from this. Does this man even love me anymore? These generally, I would say, not questions you want to be asking a week before the wedding. I've never been married, but I would say. But I can imagine doing my research. Let's start here. You spent a lot of time with these characters, Emma and Charlie. Do you like them as people? Would you be friends with them? There's a lot in that. Yes.

[Robert Pattinson]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I. Yeah, I got yes.

[Anna Martin]

Okay. That's a soft yes. There's a lot behind that. Yes. Unpack that for me.

[Robert Pattinson]

He's very easy to influence, which is always, I find a little bit untrustworthy in a person. But at the same time, he does mean well. And he's trying to. He's trying to kind of temper himself against his sort of weaker instincts. So I guess he's got potential to be my friend.

[Anna Martin]

He's easily influenced.

[Robert Pattinson]

Yeah, but. Yeah. And he's. But he's a romantic, and it's kind of. He's a romantic, and I think everybody who's a romantic is kind of slightly delusional and blind to lots of things.

[Anna Martin]

I love that.

[Robert Pattinson]

The only way you can really be a romantic.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Zendaya]

You gotta lean into it.

[Anna Martin]

Lean into it. There is this moment, the first time that your character Charlie first approaches Emma. He does it with a lie. He pretends to have read a book that Emma's reading. What do we think about this tactic? It feels so tough to pull off and unnecessary. Right. This is what I thought.

[Robert Pattinson]

He literally. It's like, why it's high risk for someone who's quite shy. Cause it's. The hard part is going up and just starting the conversation 100%. So it's kind of. Kind of one of the other reasons why I don't really like him.

[Anna Martin]

Because he lied initially.

[Robert Pattinson]

He has a lie, and it's also a very specific lie where it's kind of like, I need you to think I'm a certain type of person. And it's like. Which I guess it just comes out of insecurity. I guess it's quite endearing. I like him again.

[Anna Martin]

Oh, my.

[Zendaya]

You really.

[Anna Martin]

We'll ask at the end and we'll see if you actually don't want to hang out with him. Now, Emma, how do you feel about this woman?

[Zendaya]

Do you know what?

[Anna Martin]

I feel like I'd want to hang

[Zendaya]

out with her because I think she needs more friends. Oh, she needs more genuine friends.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Zendaya]

Tell me more about that.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah.

[Zendaya]

And I say that because I think. I think both the characters Desperately want to be loved and accepted and seen in some kind of way. In many ways, I think she just has always wanted a sense of belonging and to feel like she fits somewhere. And I think when she meets Charlie, she feels like she fits with this person and this, oh, I can choose who I'm gonna be, and this is who I am now. And I can, you know, so much I think, of her identity is in his life because we don't actually meet her own friends.

[Anna Martin]

That is true.

[Zendaya]

We meet his friends that are her friends, and, you know, she's acclimated herself to his life and his world. And not to say that that's not true to her, because I do think that this is the life that she loves and she feels like fits her and she feels safe in. And I think that's that safety that she feels ultimately ends up in making her feel safe enough to share maybe a little bit too much. And so I just think that, you know, she needs some of her own friends.

[Anna Martin]

I was going to say. So you want to hang with her out of pity?

[Zendaya]

I mean, you're like, you got to have a girl's night, but you need.

[Anna Martin]

You know, I know. I'm making it.

[Zendaya]

No, you want to hang with us. You want to have this.

[Anna Martin]

Of course you do.

[Zendaya]

And I was always like, dang, she doesn't have anyone else, you know.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Zendaya]

But I thought that was indicative of where she's at in her life and kind of her vulnerability, too, and why the stakes of this marriage working out are so important to her.

[Anna Martin]

Well, I was gonna say, you know, I opened by saying, Emma reveals this thing that she did in her past a week before the wedding. Yeah. And I'm curious for both of you, like, that decision. Do you think she should have told him earlier? Where do you come down on that?

[Zendaya]

I don't know. It's a film, so it's like, if she told him earlier, maybe it wouldn't be a very good movie.

[Anna Martin]

And you're like, no, because then I wouldn't have a job.

[Zendaya]

It wouldn't be the week before the wedding. Totally, totally chaos and nothing for us to.

[Anna Martin]

You know. That's a very straightforward answer, and I appreciate that. Yeah.

[Zendaya]

But, yeah, I don't know. And I think that's the interesting thing with this film is there is a lot of that is the discussion that you will leave with ambiguity, for sure. It's like, is that something that you feel like you should talk to your partner about, or do you feel like it was necessary to bring it up? Or you're able to kind of ruminate, chew on it and chew on it for a bit and put yourself in the shoe of both of the characters and go, well, would I have done that or would I have said that? Or.

[Anna Martin]

What are you thinking? What are you thinking?

[Zendaya]

Yeah. What are you seeing, Rob?

[Robert Pattinson]

I'm just thinking it's kind of. It's like. I think it's interesting because it's. You want a romance to be this sort of. You want it to be an idealized romance. And if you want. Like everybody kind of wants. You want something to be perfect, but if you knew everything about the other person, literally nothing is perfect. And so it's kind of like, do you want to. But also the feeling of thinking you found someone who's perfect and thinking it's a perfect relationship is so profound, it's addicting. Yeah. And you're also.

[Zendaya]

It's ideal.

[Robert Pattinson]

Yeah. And it's kind of like you don't want to let go of it, but also you can somehow. I guess the story is saying there is a way to kind of have it, but it is. It's that strange leap of faith, like, and. Which is kind of everywhere. Like, what kind of. We've been talking about all this. We're basically kind of on either side of the fence, which, like, I need

[Anna Martin]

to know everything I need to know about. Yes. Let's open up the debate. I'm sorry if this is trending territory

[Zendaya]

for you, first of all, because I don't think Rob actually believes this.

[Anna Martin]

There's a rift here.

[Zendaya]

I think Rob is just, you know,

[Anna Martin]

well, tell me, what is the different. What's the difference?

[Robert Pattinson]

No, when someone starts telling me too much, I'm like, you need to reinforce

[Zendaya]

yourself that you love.

[Robert Pattinson]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

Wait, wait. What is the debate just like.

[Robert Pattinson]

Yeah, well, I'm into boundaries. I thought everybody wanted boundaries.

[Zendaya]

There are just things like, how much do you want to know about somebody before you like to marry them or something?

[Robert Pattinson]

Very little.

[Zendaya]

And he doesn't want to know very much.

[Anna Martin]

Is that true?

[Zendaya]

You're like, you don't know their middle name.

[Robert Pattinson]

I think the more. If you're expecting chaos and surprises, you'll probably be happy in the long run. It's very unromantic if you're just like, I want to know exactly where you're. Every single day. It's like, that's so lame. It's gross.

[Zendaya]

But like, okay, rebuttal, rebuttal. But in life, naturally, like, we're going to grow and we're going to change. Like, that's going to happen no matter what. So it's good to know someone, at least at the core, so that as they grow and as they change, you can be a part of that in some way. You know, it's like, you know where we're coming from.

[Anna Martin]

So you're saying you want to know as much as establishes kind of the ground rules, if this makes sense of

[Zendaya]

what kind of person someone is and getting to see them or getting to discuss or go through things together, you know, I think is. I mean, I feel like I'm biased because I've been able to grow up with the person that I love and get to know them through being literally a teenager to now. So it's like, of course we're gonna change and we're gonna grow, and life is like, whatever. But I still feel like there's like, a bond or connection that you feel like you know someone at least enough, of course, to feel safe with them.

[Robert Pattinson]

You inevitably know someone a bit by just being in a relationship with them, of course. But I think it's the expectation of saying. I think. I think you kind of. You. You suffocate a relationship. If you're like, saying, like, I need to know this. I need to know all this stuff about your. I need to know everything about your past.

[Zendaya]

It's like, oh, I see what you mean by that.

[Robert Pattinson]

And the past has nothing to do with you. It's literally like. It's kind of. I don't know. I'm kind of.

[Zendaya]

I get that. But I also think that, like, if you feel safe in a. Safe, In a relationship, then, like, I would never want to be like, you have to tell me everything about your life. It's more like, well, how would you

[Anna Martin]

know how many questions to ask? What is it?

[Zendaya]

No, I'd just be more like, if you feel safe with somebody, or like, hopefully you feel safe enough with me that you want to share.

[Robert Pattinson]

It also reveals your own insecurity if you're constantly saying, I need to know all this stuff about your past. Also, I kind of think the second you meet someone, you kind of know which way the relationship's going to go. Like, I literally. I think that's an instant.

[Anna Martin]

Do you think you have a special ability to do that or everyone?

[Robert Pattinson]

I think everybody does. Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

And we just don't listen to it.

[Robert Pattinson]

I think they do listen to it. It's like when you. Like, I think when. If you end up breaking up with someone, something happens. There's always that moment. I knew this was gonna happen. I Think most people do. And I think you know, the second you meet them, like and you just choose to go and it's not necessarily a bad decision, but you know, you

[Anna Martin]

always know what is it. Okay, I'm gonna push on this. Cause I'm interested when you have this knowing.

[Zendaya]

Yeah, me too. Right.

[Anna Martin]

What does it feel like to you? Is it like a aha or is it like a body based sensation? What is that?

[Robert Pattinson]

Yeah, you can get. Cause you can have the combination of feel. Like you can get some, like you can have, you can be like very attract to someone. And also there's like some like fear or something at the same time. And it's like, oh. And that could be why you're attracted to them in the first place. But you know that fear will eventually have something, will do something to you.

[Anna Martin]

It will come outside.

[Robert Pattinson]

There's a reason your body is afraid of them.

[Zendaya]

Yeah, I kind of agree with that in some ways too. Because I think, I think sometimes, like, at least in my personal experience, like I found that, you know, sometimes like people kind of like can get nervous around people. But there's a certain feeling that I was able to experience when I knew that this is my person. Because I didn't. I never, I don't feel nervous around that. I feel really peaceful and I feel really calm and I feel like, oh, I actually feel more nervous when I'm away from you than when I'm with you.

[Anna Martin]

That's really sweet.

[Zendaya]

And that's when I was like, ah, that's a good sign.

[Anna Martin]

That is a good sign.

[Zendaya]

That means listening to my, you know, body intuition or body or whatever. We first met in an audition, so I was pretty nervous anyway. But he did make me feel calm.

[Anna Martin]

So can you tell me how he made you feel calm?

[Zendaya]

Just by being a nice person, you know, by making me feel comfortable. I mean like, it's like having to do a chemistry read for a big movie like that. It's like, oh, you know, you really want the job and all these kind of things. And yeah, she was, she was really lovely then.

[Anna Martin]

So I want to talk about these moments where we see. Where we learn something new about a partner. Where we see our partner in a new light. There's this scene in the movie that I find so relatable, probably because I live in New York. Emma and Charlie, they're crossing the street. A car almost hits them. Emma goes off on the driver. Yeah, and by the way, I was like, it was your right of way. You know what I mean? Do you know what I mean, 100% throw.

[Zendaya]

The star's gonna hit me.

[Anna Martin]

Okay.

[Zendaya]

But I'm.

[Anna Martin]

Well, thank you for doing it and not me. Charlie is looking at Emma like, wait, why? Why? Cause Charlie's looking at Emma like, who is this woman?

[Robert Pattinson]

Yeah. I mean, he's very sensitive. He's a little oversensitive to that. I mean, it's kind of what the humor of it is. Cause this is so. I mean, so many parts of the movie. He's reacting and I mean, I guess it's how you always. When you're spiraling, suddenly everything seems. Everything's crazy. And it's like, oh, my God, like, she's wearing a different hat.

[Zendaya]

She's kind of.

[Anna Martin]

But the moment, this scene felt like, you know, he's seeing this other aspect of her and he's interpreting it differently because Emma at this point has revealed the secret. But I felt like I related to it because in not such a dramatic fashion, but in almost every relationship I've been in, I've had this moment where the person will do something and suddenly I have to kind of recalibrate what I thought I knew about them. And it doesn't have to be in a bad way. I'm curious if this resonates if you've had a moment with someone you love, partner, family member, friend, where they do something and you see them in a different way.

[Zendaya]

I think it happens, like, when you grow up and you start stop seeing your parents as just your parents totally, and just as human beings that met and had you. You know, it's kind of like when that perception of. Or, I don't know, whatever it is, kind of fades away and you go, oh, you guys are just people. And it happens. You know, it's like for some people, it happens younger. You know, it happens at different stages of your life. But really getting to understand your parents, but not from the context of them being your parents and make them do no wrong. Yeah, yeah. Or whatever that idea or ideal of a parent is that you have in your head and just seeing them for the people that they are and also trying to have grace for them as human beings, too. And remember that they're just, you know, they're just people as well. You know, they're like, not superheroes and whatever. They're human beings. Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

Do you remember a moment when you had that realization about your parents? It can be even small, but do you remember a time when that occurred to you?

[Robert Pattinson]

Um,

[Zendaya]

I think. I think probably, like, when, you know, just moving to LA and, you know, and me having to work and be the one that was working. And I think that kind of dynamic shift brought up a lot of things for my parents. Cause now it's like you are now in a different dynamic with your parents, certainly. And how you navigate that I think was one of those moments like, oh shit, okay, this is different. Cause I'm not just like a little kid anymore, although I technically am. I'm doing a very mature job now. I have a 9 to 5 and I go to work every morning and I come home at night, but I also still have to listen to my parents and they have to tell me to go to bed, whatever. So that you're like, whoa, whoa, that's weird now. And trying to, I don't know, just like wrap your head around that a little bit.

[Anna Martin]

That feels like a lot to navigate.

[Zendaya]

Yeah, for sure.

[Anna Martin]

We'll be right back.

[Solana Pyne]

If you're a parent of a teen or have teens in your life, it can be hard to figure out the right way to approach social media and technology. Ultimately, if you feel like your teens are ready, there are tools to help. Instagram teen accounts have automatic protections for what your teens see and who can contact them. Plus time management tools like daily time limits and sleep mode. And Instagram will continue adding built in safety features to help create age appropriate experiences. Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens [e-mail] teenaccounts that's instagram.com teenaccounts now is your time

[Wesley]

to get into a new Dr. Horton home by taking advantage of its national red tag sales event. This Friday, April 10th through Sunday, May 3rd, stop by any of its participating communities and find select red tag homes at incredible pricing. So whether you're buying your first home or looking for an upgrade, you don't want to miss the red tag sales event. Starting this Friday, discover the Dr. Horton Difference. Tap your screen now or visit drhorton.com Dr. Horton, America's builder and equal housing opportunity builder.

[Solana Pyne]

Hi, I'm Solana Pyne.

[Anna Martin]

I'm the Director of Video at the New York Times. For years, my team has made videos that bring you closer to big news moments.

[Zendaya]

Videos by Times journalists that have the

[Anna Martin]

expertise to help you understand what's going on. Now we're bringing those videos to you

[Solana Pyne]

in the Watch tab in the New York Times app.

[Zendaya]

It's a dedicated video feed where you

[Anna Martin]

know you can trust what you're seeing.

[Solana Pyne]

All the videos there are free for anyone to watch.

[Anna Martin]

You don't have to be a subscriber

[Solana Pyne]

download the New York Times app to start watching.

[Anna Martin]

We have this column of the New York Times called Tiny Love Stories.

[Zendaya]

Okay.

[Anna Martin]

These are short 100 word love stories and we've chosen some that feel very resonant with the Tarama.

[Robert Pattinson]

Are they real love stories or are they just.

[Anna Martin]

They are, yeah. Yeah.

[Robert Pattinson]

That's crazy.

[Anna Martin]

They're true. They are true.

[Robert Pattinson]

People, just random people, just randomly send them in.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah. Voluntarily.

[Zendaya]

Wow.

[Anna Martin]

This is a brave thing.

[Zendaya]

It is a brave thing.

[Anna Martin]

It is a brave thing. So I'm going to hand you one of these. You'll read them and then we'll respond to them, we'll react to them. How does that sound? Ok, first up, we have you, Zendaya. And please say the title and the author's name. Okay.

[Zendaya]

First the Ugly, then the Beauty by Ally Petrilla. We met on an app. I chose my favorite brewery for our first date when he ordered only water to drink while I enjoyed a few beers. I prodded with neither hesitation nor shame. He laid out his demons. Four years in recovery from heroin and alcohol addiction. Then I laid out mine. 10 years recovering from eating disorders. Within 15 minutes, we knew all of each other's ugly parts. We spent the rest of our time together discovering the beautiful ones.

[Anna Martin]

That's what's coming up for you.

[Zendaya]

I think that's really beautiful. You know, here's the thing. It's like everybody's love story is different. And some people feel comfortable sharing and feel like they can be vulnerable or feel like it's important for them to lay their cards out on the table right away. Some people are more comfortable with that. Some people, it takes time for you to, you know, build the trust and break the walls down. But in a unique situation where it seems like this has worked for both of these people, where they feel like they were both able to share something equally of, you know, importance to them and that was, you know, allowed them to bond and see each other and maybe help each other in many ways. Then I feel like that's really beautiful. Do I hope they're happy?

[Anna Martin]

They're actually married. We got that update.

[Zendaya]

Oh, wonderful.

[Anna Martin]

Do you think there's such a thing as disclosing too much of yourself too early? Yes.

[Zendaya]

Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

Okay. Very strong response. Tell me about this.

[Zendaya]

No, no, I'm saying it's such a thing. That's someone's story. Yeah, I think. Do I necessarily feel like maybe on the time I meet someone, it depends on the person and who you know, and sometimes it takes time to get to know somebody.

[Robert Pattinson]

Like, it's very controlling as well. Manipulative.

[Zendaya]

You are.

[Robert Pattinson]

No, I am. Yes.

[Anna Martin]

Wait, so tell me more about this. You had such a strong response.

[Robert Pattinson]

Yeah. I feel like everybody who does that often. Well, not everybody, but the vast majority of people who want to kind of overload you with kind of too personal information when you haven't really met them. It's like kind of. Cause it forces you into a certain position to listen to them and you're like. And some.

[Anna Martin]

What is that position?

[Robert Pattinson]

You can't. I'm just gonna sound so judgy. Great credit already. But I do think it's manipulative. Sometimes someone's. You can tell when someone's doing it. But like sometimes if you're like at a party and someone's doing something, it's like, it's kind of. Cause you can't really tell. Blah, blah, blah, whatever. Get out of here.

[Anna Martin]

So you think it's like. It's sort of. It's putting you into a position where you have to receive.

[Robert Pattinson]

Yeah. Then I just wanna talk.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah.

[Zendaya]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

But it worked for them.

[Zendaya]

Yeah, it worked. That's what I'm saying. It worked for them.

[Robert Pattinson]

Oh, no, I'm not saying about these guys. This one's very nice.

[Anna Martin]

Yes, they do. And again, on a date. I'm talking about married. Yes. Okay. You're talking about in a party. Do you feel like you're the kind of person.

[Robert Pattinson]

If it's on a date, it's a totally different thing. Sorry, I was thinking about a party. I realize now it's the most important.

[Anna Martin]

Tell me about how you'd handle it on a date if someone was opening up like they are in this tiny love story.

[Robert Pattinson]

Yeah, it depends. It's like if someone. Yeah. It's not just the opening up is not just opening up. I think there's always so much more to it. Cause I think most. I think it's a natural thing to be like, wary of other people when you first met them.

[Zendaya]

Yeah, for sure.

[Robert Pattinson]

And so I don't know, but it'd be interesting. Sometimes that's happened to me before. And sometimes you're like, absolutely so profoundly moved that someone's thought like, oh, I see something in you, which you are the person who I feel like I can open up to.

[Anna Martin]

I trust you.

[Robert Pattinson]

Yeah. But if they're just opening up to everybody, I'm just like,

[Anna Martin]

Robert, we have a tiny love story for you if you don't mind reading this. The title and the author's name.

[Robert Pattinson]

And we'll discuss there's a Logic to Love by Jack Simmons. As an engineer, I believe problems have logical solutions. To solve my relationship problem, I needed to structure it. Standing at my boyfriend's whiteboard with a marker and a flow chart I'd drawn, I asked him questions, tracing his answers down the chart. He was happy, but wasn't sure he could fall in love with me. The chart said break up, so we did. I went back to him, promising to love myself enough for both of us. It didn't work. We broke up again. Love is simple. The flowchart and your heart must lead to the same answer. Stay. Interesting. It's not where I thought it was gonna go.

[Anna Martin]

I know, right? Okay, well, tell me about that reaction.

[Zendaya]

Well, are they saying that, like, this particular flowchart.

[Anna Martin]

Yes.

[Zendaya]

Kept going back to break up, and in order for it to work, the end point can't be break up. It has to be stay.

[Anna Martin]

I think the flowchart said for them, breakup. And they did, but then they came back together, ignoring the flowchart, and then it didn't work. And so what he's saying is we should listen to the flowchart.

[Solana Pyne]

To the flowchart.

[Zendaya]

That's what I'm saying. It has to say stay.

[Anna Martin]

Yes, it has to stay.

[Zendaya]

Break up.

[Robert Pattinson]

Well, it sounds like his partner initially said that already. Said, like, I'm gonna let this flowchart shit go, and then I'm gonna ignore that you've drilled on this flowchart and hope you come to your senses beyond

[Anna Martin]

the flowchart of it all.

[Zendaya]

I will say, well, he also said he was happy but wasn't sure he could fall in love with me.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah.

[Robert Pattinson]

Oh. Oh, oh, Sorry I messed that up.

[Zendaya]

That's a hard.

[Robert Pattinson]

Oh, yeah.

[Zendaya]

Kind of.

[Anna Martin]

What's making sense to you now?

[Robert Pattinson]

I mean, if someone says, I'm not sure I can fall in love with you, I'm like, just keep it to yourself. You need to say, I got a job overseas.

[Anna Martin]

I got a job, and I need to go.

[Robert Pattinson]

I'm sorry, but I. You're amazing. I have to go.

[Anna Martin]

You're like, no more charts.

[Robert Pattinson]

I'm not entirely sure what a flowchart is.

[Zendaya]

Oh, my God.

[Anna Martin]

That comes out. Now that you don't know what a flowchart.

[Robert Pattinson]

When you follow the line to, like, topsy needs to find her mom in the swimming pool. Like, who I do find.

[Anna Martin]

That's cool. Is that a maze?

[Robert Pattinson]

Maze.

[Anna Martin]

Okay. So no. So no, not exactly. A flowchart is very different.

[Zendaya]

Very different. Very different.

[Anna Martin]

But they share some components. Let's throw Them. A bone. A flowchart. I'm like, what is a flowchart?

[Zendaya]

Visual learning.

[Anna Martin]

Visual learning. It's like, if this, then this.

[Zendaya]

Yeah.

[Robert Pattinson]

As he started drawing it.

[Anna Martin]

It's a trainer.

[Robert Pattinson]

He shouldn't realize how unattractive that is.

[Anna Martin]

Well, I feel like people make a lot of pro and cons lists for people. Which is adjacent to flowchart. Have you ever been in a situation where you're so unsure about someone or something, some decision that you felt the need? You could have used a flow chart or a pro con list.

[Zendaya]

I don't think I've used it in, like, a romantic situation, but I've definitely used some charts, like, to make some decisions. I'm a Virgo.

[Anna Martin]

There you go.

[Zendaya]

Okay. Not like a chart, but I've definitely did some pro con list.

[Anna Martin]

Really?

[Zendaya]

Oh, for sure.

[Anna Martin]

Is this surprising to you? That's like a normal thing to do.

[Robert Pattinson]

It is pro cons, and if the

[Zendaya]

pro cons outweighs the cons, you're like,

[Anna Martin]

okay, how do you make decisions, Robert?

[Robert Pattinson]

Shake your head around it, and then you see which is bigger, the yes or the no.

[Anna Martin]

You're like a Magic 8 ball. That's really fun.

[Robert Pattinson]

That's literally.

[Anna Martin]

I'm entertaining.

[Zendaya]

It goes on vibes.

[Anna Martin]

It could be very damaging to one's head, though.

[Robert Pattinson]

I don't know. It's a light shake.

[Anna Martin]

It's a light shake. Just a tiny light shake.

[Zendaya]

Yeah. No, I definitely. Yeah. Cause I'm. That's the thing is I feel like I'm very. I don't know, I overthink about a lot of things. So sometimes, like, you just pour out with all these thoughts. You're like, okay, maybe I just need to write it down. So, yeah, sometimes that's. I found that helpful. But maybe not in this particular situation.

[Anna Martin]

Not in this particular.

[Zendaya]

But I think, you know that there is an open communication, and the answer was kind of there. And it's like, okay, well, maybe this isn't where I need to be.

[Anna Martin]

I actually think this goes back to your understanding of really tuning in to the truth of someone. This is their way to figure out, you know, the outcome of their relationship. They had to break up, but they didn't listen.

[Robert Pattinson]

I'm not literally. Look, when you're drawing the flowchart, you know?

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, okay.

[Zendaya]

Flowchart. That's fair. Flowchart kind of knows.

[Robert Pattinson]

Yeah. Not only are you drawing the flowchart, but then you're showing it to your partner. You're trying to get a reaction. You're trying all you're trying to do is say, like, I want you to say you love me totally. Like, that's the thing. That's the only reason you're doing it. And you know he's not gonna do it. Like, you know they're not gonna do it.

[Zendaya]

Yeah. If nothing else, I'd say that's fair.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah. I also am happy that we could tell you what a flowchart is, even though I'm not. Not so sure. You really know.

[Robert Pattinson]

I know. I still kind of went in one

[Zendaya]

way or another, but you're just like, any chart. Any chart starts to bring out a chart in a relationship, it's over already.

[Robert Pattinson]

Yeah.

[Zendaya]

Okay. There you go. To be fair, I think Charlie would be a flow chart guy. He's trying to justify. He's trying to. Pros and cons.

[Robert Pattinson]

He's, like, thinking, like, I think, well, he literally kind of does. I mean, that's literally what the movie

[Zendaya]

is, his pros and cons list.

[Robert Pattinson]

I think he's just drawing things down. It just feels like, yeah, this was a lot of effort for a very long time.

[Anna Martin]

I had way more questions about flowcharts, and I'm realizing, like, there's a lot here. It's very rich. This movie's about marriage. You both are in very public relationships. There has been recently much speculation about marriage for you. I'd be remiss not to ask, as a journalist, if there's anything you want to say about people wondering about whether you're married. And I will say just a small plug. If there was a place to say some news, it might be the Modern Love podcast for the New York Times.

[Zendaya]

Well, I just feel like, for me, it's like there is a level of a parasocial investment in my personal relationship, which I understand. And I do know that. I am aware that I'm a public person and so is he. And I'm also aware that we've grown up in front of people and we've done movies where we fall in love with each other. So it's like, I really do understand that, and I don't wanna dismiss that. Stay out of my business or whatever, but. But in a lot of ways, I also am a very private person, and I try my best to be able to have things for myself and for him as well. And so we do our best in general to not hide ourselves from the world, but just to, I think, preserve things for ourselves so that we can maintain that joy just within ourselves and our loved ones and our family. So that's kind of like my Broad way of just saying. I hear it. But I also like my own little boundaries of what I like to bring up and talk about, but then also what I'm also willing to share.

[Anna Martin]

You know, I think that's the most beautiful way to say no comment.

[Robert Pattinson]

I know.

[Wesley]

I respect it.

[Zendaya]

No, I mean, I'm just. I'm speaking honestly, of course, from that perspective. But yeah, I just, you know, I just try to find the balance in the middle there.

[Anna Martin]

Understood. Any comment?

[Robert Pattinson]

I wish I could. I was literally, like, practicing.

[Anna Martin]

It was really good. And it was true.

[Zendaya]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

It was clearly very genuine.

[Zendaya]

I swear I didn't chart this. This is just. I'm just answering your question. Cause I didn't know if you would answer, like, ask that.

[Anna Martin]

So. Thank you for telling me.

[Zendaya]

Of course.

[Anna Martin]

I want to land us on the set. We've been talking about what it means to really know someone we love. What happens when we don't know as much as we thought. So I want to close on this idea. I wonder if you could share a time recently where you felt very known by someone in your life, very seen for who you are. This is an earnest question, I know, but I wonder if you could humor me with an earnest answer. Good luck. You gotta try. You gotta try.

[Robert Pattinson]

Very known and seen. I mean, a lot. I feel like. I feel like my partner in a lot of ways knows me better than I know myself. Well, No, she's kind of to the point where she'll kind of have quite psychic abilities about things. But does that feel good?

[Anna Martin]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Good.

[Robert Pattinson]

She doesn't have a choice dialect. Like, I just need make friends. Yeah. And my kid as well. Like, it's kind of. Well, I don't know if she knows me as well.

[Anna Martin]

It is cool. Cause there's an answer and then there's a.

[Robert Pattinson]

Well. Well, I mean, there's always a two. There's always another side to the coin. But like. But the. Yeah. Seeing it's a different. Yeah. When your kid's looking at you, it's a different type of knowing as well, because it's knowing without any. I mean, obviously they have desires from you. But it's funny when they're just. It's just pure curiosity. And when you conceive it, they don't have a single issue with you, which is great.

[Anna Martin]

How freeing.

[Robert Pattinson]

It's so nice.

[Anna Martin]

They're not pissed, they're not mad. Although sometimes they are.

[Robert Pattinson]

They're crying, they're going to swing. That's it. It's the kind of relationship I understand

[Anna Martin]

it Will probably get more complicated than swing, though, right? It might. It might. Maybe. What about you? Last time you felt known?

[Zendaya]

I feel like. I feel really. I feel really known by, like, my partner, by, like, my friends, by my family. Like, I do feel like the core people around me. I feel very. I think that's when I'm happiest, is when I'm with all of those people. It's just like I feel like I'm not thinking so much and, you know, trying to think about what I'm gonna say before I say it, like right now, but you know what I mean? It's like you just, you know, they know you. They see you and you feel safe and you feel like. And also, it's just like they see me as the adult I am now, but, like, my siblings also see me as their little sister.

[Anna Martin]

All the past versions of me.

[Zendaya]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

All the past stacked on top of each other. Yeah.

[Zendaya]

And. And that love and that care or that protection or that whatever that looks like from them is still very, very true. You can feel it, you know, so that's special.

[Anna Martin]

Robert Pattinson, Zendaya, thank you so much for this conversation. That was at times a debate. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

[Zendaya]

But ultimately he agreed with you.

[Anna Martin]

Ultimately, he agreed with you. Thank you so much.

[Zendaya]

He's really pleased. Thank you. Thank you.

[Anna Martin]

The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Reva Goldberg and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Reeva Goldberg and Elisa Gutierrez. It was edited by Lynn Levy and Jen Poyant. Tom Hopper recorded this episode at Quixote Studios and our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez. We had production help from Paula Neudorf, Sophie Erickson, brooke Minters, Tom McEvoley, Nick Krause, Jackson Montemayor and Caleb Haas. Original music in this episode by Alicia Bitoop, Diane Wong and Dan Powell. Dan also composed our theme music. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones, and Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we've got the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.