Olivia Rodrigo Makes Heartbreak Pop

Summary

Cannonball with Wesley Morris

Episode: Olivia Rodrigo Makes Heartbreak Pop

Date: July 9, 2026
Host: Wesley Morris
Guest: Karen Gans (Former NYT Pop Music Editor)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Wesley Morris is joined by Karen Gans to dive deep into Olivia Rodrigo's third album, exploring Rodrigo’s evolution as a songwriter and the shifting landscape of emotional pop music. Together, they reflect on the album’s lyrical and sonic textures, its narrative arc through love and heartbreak, and how Rodrigo stands out in today’s pop scene. The episode is as much a song-by-song analysis as it is a meditation on youth, pop stardom, and the cultural moment captured by Rodrigo’s artistry.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening: Olivia Rodrigo’s Evolution as a Songwriter

[00:40–03:06]

• Wesley introduces Karen Gans, who once wrote a memorable Olivia Rodrigo profile (“You were with Olivia Rodrigo… trying to park a car.”).
• Gans recounts a pivotal moment between Rodrigo's debut (Sour) and her sophomore album (Guts), highlighting Rodrigo’s philosophy:

  “Pop music is about expressing feelings that are hard to externalize or aren’t socially acceptable… especially for a girl.”
  — Karen Gans [02:53]

2. “Guts” and Beyond: Artistic Growth & Avoiding Fame Tropes

[03:06–04:02]

• The hosts note Rodrigo’s refusal to make fame her subject matter.

  “She wasn’t a pop star on that album. She was a rock star.”
  — Karen Gans [03:46]

3. The New Album: Sonic and Emotional Landscape

[04:04–05:32]

• The newest record blends pop, rock, synth pop, and “feelings.”
• The mood is encapsulated by the dramatic album cover: Rodrigo upside down on a swing, evoking both danger and ecstasy.

  “Is she enjoying the almost dying part?”
  — Wesley Morris [05:19]

4. Concept Album Structure

[05:55–06:28]

• The album is a concept piece, chronicling a relationship from thrilling beginnings to its bittersweet end.

  “It’s a concept album about a relationship told from the beginnings of excitement through the conclusion of disappointment.”
  — Karen Gans [06:01]

5. Song Analysis Highlights

“Stupid Song”

[06:28–09:18]

• A bubbling, manic love song; described as both “cute” and “hysterical.”
• Gans compares its intensity to Beyoncé’s “Love on Top.”
• Wesley calls the track “a song about how she couldn’t write a song” because her feelings couldn’t be contained.

  “The excitement here is that… the feelings are beginning to sort of carbonate. And the song, by extension, has its own carbonation.”
  — Wesley Morris [08:29]

“Honeybee” (Track 3)

[09:29–12:29]

• A ballad that immediately introduces fear of loss and insecurity, even when in love.
• Contains subtly sexual lyricism:

  “I hope I never see what your face looks like going. Which means she knows what it looks like coming.”
  — Wesley Morris [11:17]

• Gans praises Rodrigo’s literary subtlety and emotional acuity.

Ballads and Emotional Arc

[12:54–16:52]

• Gans personally dislikes ballads but recognizes their purpose in Rodrigo’s work.
• Discusses “Less,” where Rodrigo acknowledges both partners’ flaws.
• The album traces a very “twenty-something” relationship: emotional but lacking older adult perspective.

  “She really is writing as she’s experiencing things and not imagining them.”
  — Karen Gans [15:56]

• Wesley observes Rodrigo develops her protagonist into a “much richer, more interesting person than when she started out.” [16:19]

6. Rodrigo’s Songwriting Maturity

[16:52–18:39]

• Rodrigo’s growth in complexity between albums is “exponential.”
• Her insight is attributed in part to therapy (her father is a therapist).
• Karen finds the album missing outside perspectives (“it’s all really insular”), with little interaction with friends or external world.

7. Favorite Songs & Standout Moments

“My Way”

[18:43–19:12]

• Injects fun and wit, albeit still within a closed relational world.

“Expectations”

[19:18–24:41]

• Both hosts agree: “Expectations” is the album’s highlight for Gans (“my favorite song”).
• The song is structurally adventurous—stylistically referencing Blur, Madonna (“Material Girl”), and Janet Jackson (“Escapade”).

  “It takes off. The drums are so fun. Everything is fun in the song.”
  — Karen Gans [22:04] “Part of what I love about Olivia is that she’s a worker. She works.”
  — Karen Gans [22:55]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “She’s having fun with being kissed, but she’s also having fun just with this music. Right. Toward the end of the song, there’s this great moment where the men show up. She’s got big expectations.” — Wesley Morris [23:12–23:29]
• “It’s so wonderful the way that, like, the decades are collapsed here. Because the 2000s that you’re hearing, the 90s that I’m hearing, the 80s of Madonna.”
  — Wesley Morris [23:45]

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The Album in Context: Pop, Charts, and Contemporary Mood

[27:12–38:27]

• Olivia’s dominance on the Hot 100 (all 13 songs in the top 30) is unique.

• The current chart moment: a mix of blockbuster albums and one-off songs with no defining “sound of 2026.”

• Songs from other chart-toppers (Taylor Swift, Ariana Grande) share themes: relationship ambivalence, communication struggles.

  “Are they saying men do better?”
  — Karen Gans [29:25]

• The hosts contrast Rodrigo’s literary, emotionally precise lyrics with the “vibey” but vague pop songs crowding the charts.

• The industry is “a land of one hit wonders and blockbuster albums... everything else is just sort of like... and Drake.”
  — Karen Gans [31:21]

• “Olivia Rodrigo…is not only that it doesn’t sound like 2026, but 2026 doesn’t have a sound.”
  — Wesley Morris [37:26]

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Broader Reflections: Pop Narrative, Influence & Legacy

[38:27–end]

• The fragmentation and narrative confusion in pop music today make a record like Rodrigo’s especially meaningful.

• Gans links Rodrigo’s lineage to Lorde and Kelly Clarkson, finding Rodrigo a “student becomes the teacher” figure.

• Praises Rodrigo’s ability to detail heartbreak in rich, crystalline lyrical shards.

  “She’s just very good at detailing each shard. And I think she could probably do this for the next 40 years.”
  — Wesley Morris [40:23]

• The episode ends with hope that “Expectations” might become a number one hit.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:40–03:06] | Rodrigo’s approach to songwriting and emotion
• [04:04–05:32] | The album’s mood and the symbolic album cover
• [06:28–09:18] | Song breakdown: “Stupid Song”
• [09:29–12:29] | Song breakdown: “Honeybee” and ballad style
• [19:18–24:41] | Song breakdown: “Expectations” and genre-mashing
• [27:12–38:27] | Olivia Rodrigo’s chart context and industry analysis
• [38:27–End] | Reflections on the cultural “narrative” void and Rodrigo’s place in pop lineage

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Tone and Language

The conversation is witty, deeply musical, sometimes irreverent but always insightful, offering both granular song analysis and sweeping commentary on the state of pop. Both Morris and Gans are clearly fond of Rodrigo and hope for a pop scene with more artistry and emotional clarity. They maintain a conversational, accessible tone while dropping references (“Material Girl,” “Escapade,” “JV,” “Jalen Brunson”) that keep the critique lively and relatable.

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In Summary

If you’ve ever wondered why Olivia Rodrigo’s heartbreak pop has seized the charts—and hearts—so powerfully, this episode offers a masterclass in close listening, pop history, and cultural critique. Rodrigo’s third album is celebrated here as far more than catchy hooks: it’s an emotionally sophisticated, literate, and musically fearless exploration that transcends its moment, offering listeners both catharsis and exhilaration. And, in the hands of passionate pop fans like Morris and Gans, it becomes a case study for what makes a generational songwriter—and why we need more of them now.

Transcript

[Podcast Announcer]

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[Wesley Morris]

I'm Wesley Morris, and this is Cannonball.

[Narrator/Reader]

Today,

[Wesley Morris]

you seem pretty sad for a girl so in love. That's right. Olivia Rodrigo's third album, It's Upon Us. It's really upon us. It's been like a month. And we're gonna talk to Karen Ganz. I am gonna talk to Karen Ganz, my homie and the former pop music editor at the New York Times, and we're gonna talk about, like, where emotional pop music is right now and also what is good about this album. Karen Ganz, welcome back to Cannonball.

[Karen Gans]

Thank you. Wesley Morris, first of all, I think

[Wesley Morris]

just to set the table here, you have written one of my favorite profiles of a pop singer, songwriter. You were with Olivia Rodrigo in this wonderful moment where she was trying to park a car.

[Karen Gans]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

One of my favorite activities as a New Yorker to watch a person do is park a car. And the idea that you got to watch a person who has, you know, one of the great pop songs in driver's license park a car.

[Karen Gans]

Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you. That's very nice. What you said about the story, it's true. We were trying to come up with an activity, you know, like a scene for the story. And it's interesting. This was as she was coming onto her second album, you know, it's like the dreaded second album, the sophomore album. You're making the leap. There's a lot of stress. But she decided we should make scones. We would learn how to make scones together. I think she was like, I'm an adult. I have a kitchen or whatever. But she picked me up in her car in her Range Rover to drive to the scone making. And I was like, obviously, this is going to have to be the scene. She has the most famous driver's license in pop music history. I mean, whatever. But we drive to where this restaurant is, and she, like, cannot figure out where to park this car. And the anxiety in the car is just, like, ratcheting up and up. And I'm like, oh, my God, this poor woman. Anyway, she managed to park, and then I think a security guard came and might have re parked after we went in to make the scones. But, yes, I did get to spend time with her at this, like, super pivotal moment between those first two albums. And she said a couple of really interesting things then that I think applied to the new album. And one of them that really stuck with me was she. For me, pop music is about expressing feelings that are hard to externalize or aren't socially acceptable to externalize, especially for a girl.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, okay. So I feel. Well, I mean, let's unpack that a little bit, I guess. I mean, what. She's saying this in the context of putting guts out.

[Karen Gans]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

I received that album as a real statement of purpose. It didn't feel burdened at all. I loved. There's a couple great songs on that record.

[Karen Gans]

Oh, yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

But it's clear that the tension for me was her trying to figure out whether or not she was gonna be a person who was gonna write music about becoming a famous person.

[Karen Gans]

Right. And she had decided no. Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

Right.

[Karen Gans]

Yeah. Because she. I mean, she said, it's like, that's so not universal. How is anyone gonna relate to my music if it's simply about becoming a famous pop star? The other thing was, she wasn't a pop star on that album. She was a rock star. That was our headline. I think it was really accurate. So I was super curious to see where she was gonna go on this record.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, where did she go, according to you?

[Karen Gans]

A little bit of both.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Karen Gans]

You know, it's like a pop rock record. It's like a synth pop record. It's a feelings record.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Karen Gans]

To me, it's more. It has more of a emotional impact on me than sonically, honestly.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, interesting.

[Karen Gans]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

You mean lyrically, Are you talking about the way the music is hitting you, or are you talking about lyrically, the whole vibe?

[Karen Gans]

To me, the album is a vibe.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay. Okay. I think, you know, one thing about the sort of the mood of this album is it's the album cover.

[Karen Gans]

Oh, yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

It's just Olivia Rodrigo on a swing. And yet she is so dangerously. She's such a dangerous.

[Karen Gans]

She's fallen off the swing, she's inverted,

[Wesley Morris]

she's almost upside down. And you can't tell. And you know, because I have not. I don't have a physical copy of this thing. I turn my phone every which way to try to figure out what exactly is happening to her face. And you can't tell. Is this ecstasy? Is it fear? Is it like. Is it release? What's happening here? It's just. It's a wonderful album cover because it looks happy. But upon closer inspection, it also looks a little dangerous. It's dangerous? Yes, it's dangerous. And she could be afraid for the angle she's at. It just looks like something bad could possibly happen. And also, if she is enjoying it, is she enjoying the almost dying part?

[Karen Gans]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

Do you know what I mean? Is she enjoying the possibility that she could just fall?

[Karen Gans]

Based on the first half of the album, yes. It's all about the thrill of uncertainty and fear.

[Wesley Morris]

Right. But also, like, what happens if I let go of those ropes? When am I gonna land? Cause to me, this album operates on an arc. Right.

[Karen Gans]

Well, yeah, we should probably talk about that as sort of a concept album.

[Wesley Morris]

Is it a concept album?

[Karen Gans]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay, fine. Who says that?

[Karen Gans]

I think everyone.

[Paul Tanorio]

Really?

[Karen Gans]

Yeah. It's a concept album about a relationship told from the beginnings of excitement through the conclusion of disappointment. And, like, hope for the future.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes. This album, the relationship feels. I mean, our closure is not right, but we get a kind of closure, right? Yeah, I kind of want to. We should just start going through some of the songs. Right. Why don't we start with Stupid Song, the second track.

[Narrator/Reader]

New York City's never looked so blue. My friends are smoking blondes in the bathroom.

[Wesley Morris]

You know, it's a cute bop.

[Karen Gans]

I think it's more than not.

[Wesley Morris]

It's more than that. Go on, Karen.

[Karen Gans]

I love this song because. And I didn't like it at first. It's so hysterical. It's almost manic.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Karen Gans]

She is falling in love. And her voice is like. She's describing the lyrics just like. She's basically out of her mind.

[Narrator/Reader]

You're a spark in the dark and my clothes will caught a flame. You should feel how I feel when somebody says your name on my car. Speeding down the boulevard without a break.

[Karen Gans]

She can't, like, fathom a love like this. And the intensity of her singing and the register is just keep going. It just keeps getting higher and higher. It's a little Beyonce love on top, where she keeps modulating, except she's not modulating. She's just like. She just keeps pushing every. Every line, every. Her voice is getting higher and she's stretching and she's straight more than any

[Narrator/Reader]

stupid song could ever say.

[Karen Gans]

It's like she's legitimately out of her mind.

[Wesley Morris]

I think what I love about this record, this particular song, is that I mean what she's doing. And, you know, you're right about the building. This song is definitely building somewhere. But I think the thing that's cool about it is. It's a song about how she couldn't write a song.

[Karen Gans]

Right. It couldn't contain it.

[Wesley Morris]

Right, right, right. Yeah, it's a little. It's a little Emily Dickinson. You know, she's not looking for. I mean, the sort of go on the death drive here. Well, just. I'm not gonna go into my Emily Dickinson thought. I just feel like, you know, the excitement here is that, you know, this is the second song she's met this guy, and now the feelings are beginning to. To sort of carbonate. And the song, by extension, has its own carbonation. I hear a lot of the harmonies on this thing. I mean, I don't know who's singing with her, but I get the sense that a lot of it is her singing with herself.

[Megan Lorum]

Yeah, I think so.

[Wesley Morris]

There's a kind of Beach Boys approach to the way she comes together with herself on this record that, like, is like a chemical inducement.

[Karen Gans]

And the song starts really slowly. In fact, I was deeply concerned when I hit play. I was like, is this a ballad on track two? I'm going to kill her. Cause she loves a ballad.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, interesting.

[Karen Gans]

And I do not love a ballad.

[Wesley Morris]

You don't like her ballading?

[Karen Gans]

I like some of it, but I was like, there's such a high from Drop Dead on track one. And then the tempo dropped immediately, and I was just like. My heart sank. And then it's this slow build, which is another thing that she's so good at.

[Wesley Morris]

She's very good at that stair climb, that emotional StairMaster.

[Karen Gans]

I love that she gets there.

[Wesley Morris]

Um, well, that's interesting, because then you do get a ballad on song three.

[Karen Gans]

You do, right?

[Wesley Morris]

Like, Honeybee is. Is a straight up. But I love this song, by the way.

[Narrator/Reader]

So I guess that it's true. Time can heal Even the worst of wounds in the clay.

[Wesley Morris]

It might be my favorite song because. I don't know. I know very little about Olivia Rodrigo, but I get the sense that this is a person who went to church or, like, experience some sort of, like, formalized Glee Club, perhaps oriented singing situation. I don't know what Disney was like where she used to work, but there is a real interest in what I would describe as choral singing. So on Honeybee, you. There's this moment. There's this beautiful moment where, like, it's got a good chorus.

[Karen Gans]

Yeah.

[Narrator/Reader]

In a way that feels false. But even. Even when I'm quiet I love you,

[Wesley Morris]

baby I promise Even when I'm quiet I love you Just. Just so you know When I'm Quiet. I'm not saying anything. It doesn't mean that, like, we have a problem here. It means I. I can still love you and not speak. So there's already something. There's an insecurity here. There's a kind of darkness.

[Karen Gans]

And there's also the, like, I love you so much that I'm already now worrying about the end.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. Immediately. Yeah, yeah. The song three.

[Karen Gans]

Yeah, song three. And she's like, I hope I never see your face going. It's like, already.

[Wesley Morris]

But listen, Karen started. Karen. You know, so I'm always interested in when my pop stars write about sex. Like, when does sex come up? And increasingly it doesn't. Right.

[Paul Tanorio]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

But this lyric, I hope I never

[Narrator/Reader]

see what your face looks like.

[Wesley Morris]

I hope I never see what your face looks like going. Which means she knows what it looks like coming.

[Paul Tanorio]

Right.

[Karen Gans]

Fair.

[Wesley Morris]

And it's such a wonderful insinuation. I don't want to call it a PG rated lyric because I think it's great. Right. But it also is letting you in on the fact that there is this physical intimacy. Right. Like, she does know this man as a sexual partner, but she's worried about, like, what happens when this domestic coupling that they're trying to build, when that dissolves.

[Karen Gans]

She's very literary.

[Narrator/Reader]

Yeah.

[Karen Gans]

I mean, she cited a book as an interview.

[Wesley Morris]

Can I go back to Emily Dickinson now?

[Karen Gans]

Now is the time. Reset the clock. No, I think, like, she's a very. She's a subtle songwriter and it's not tortured. Like, I thought that too, when I heard that lyric. And I thought, that's clever. But I also didn't think, like, she sat there trying to figure out how to make that happen. I don't know. There's a. I mean, what if she did? I mean, it's possible there's a naturalness to her delivery and just a very. It's a very pure, genuine.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, I mean. Well, the thing about this record is. I mean, it's mostly extremely polished lyrically.

[Karen Gans]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

I actually think that. I mean, I hope she spent, well, I mean, she. A month trying to get that lyric right.

[Paul Tanorio]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

I hope she spent all the time she needed. Cause it sounds great. And also, I think I've listened to this thing about five or six times. It wasn't until the sixth time that I really thought about what it would mean to, like, see his face going.

[Paul Tanorio]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

Wait, can you talk to me a little bit about, like, why you don't like the ballads?

[Karen Gans]

No, it's not. It's just me.

[Paul Tanorio]

Okay.

[Karen Gans]

I'M not a very big ballad person, which is funny, you know, I'm like the biggest Billy Joel fan in the world. I saw his at MSG like 50 times. And every time he did.

[Wesley Morris]

You took me to one of those.

[Karen Gans]

I did.

[Wesley Morris]

It was one of the happiest nights.

[Karen Gans]

Very special night. But anytime he did, like, She's Got Away, whatever, I sat down.

[Wesley Morris]

You sure did. I don't know what your problem is.

[Karen Gans]

I don't like a ballad that much.

[Wesley Morris]

I don't know what it is.

[Karen Gans]

I feel very good.

[Wesley Morris]

But she sat down in her chair when he. I mean, you've got a way. I know, but so.

[Karen Gans]

But I will say the ballads on this album are so purposeful. Actually, one that I really like is it comes right after what's Wrong with Me and it's less.

[Narrator/Reader]

I feel it again. Edge of the Bed.

[Karen Gans]

It's just her and piano. There's no other instrumentation. I don't think she's done that before. I think there's been strings or guitar on something on the other ballads. And it literally. It kind of. I was like, this could be a Billie Eilish song. You know how Billie is like.

[Amy Lawrence]

It is.

[Wesley Morris]

It could be a Billie Eilish song. Yeah. But I also thought about Lefe.

[Karen Gans]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

And the reason. I mean, Billie Eilish is also a wit, but Lefe is a kind of a specific torch song oriented wit. And Les has. I mean, Les is basically about her realizing that, you know, we've been dealing with her emotional problems and now we can see that the guy in this relationship has his own shit.

[Narrator/Reader]

This isn't what it should feel like. And maybe I'm a stubborn overthinker, but I've been thinking over this so long.

[Wesley Morris]

And maybe I'm a stubborn over overthinker, but I've been thinking over this a lot.

[Karen Gans]

I love that line. I know. It's so good. Bars.

[Wesley Morris]

So much of what's happening on this album is about somebody's idea of what a good relationship is. And it's just sort of like we're at this weird moment with young people in relationships where they're just trying to figure out how to do it well.

[Karen Gans]

This was her first, you know, like, long term, effective relationship.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay. Okay.

[Karen Gans]

I mean, I think part of why this is so devastating is that like, just as an outsider, they seemed like a very happy couple.

[Wesley Morris]

You mean in real life?

[Karen Gans]

Yeah, they did.

[Wesley Morris]

I don't know anything about what's going on.

[Karen Gans]

He's an actor, He's English, very handsome, and they, you Know, he was very supportive of her when she played at Glastonbury. He'd put on Instagram, like, I hope you saw her performance. She worked so hard on it. You know, I was like, that's very touching. I thought that they really, like, saw each other. I mean, but they're both very young. 20, you know, she's 23 now. This was still a very young relationship.

[Wesley Morris]

We're not dealing with adult brains yet.

[Karen Gans]

No. Which is what? It's interesting. There's like a couple. Cause you know, it tells the story. It's the arc of a relationship from beginning to end, but it's the arc of a 20 something relationship from beginning to end.

[Wesley Morris]

Right, right.

[Karen Gans]

Cause there are different rungs in that ladder that I would add for a 30 something or a 40 something. And I'm like, well, that's great that she's not there yet. She really is writing as she's experiencing things and I think not imagining them.

[Wesley Morris]

But this is why I love the trajectory of this thing, is because I actually think that she is developing, I mean, to the extent that the protagonist of these songs is a character. Right. Where the character is by the end is a much richer, more interesting person than when she started out.

[Karen Gans]

Yes. I think that she is such a gifted songwriter, and it's like exponential the leaps she has made on each of the albums. It's like Guts was four times as complex lyrically, emotionally, and musically than Sour. And this one is like eight times as complex as Guts, I think it's like, I'm unbelievably blown away by her emotional acuity.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay.

[Karen Gans]

So the things that she's picking up at 23, I'm like, literally, LOL. I was writing blurbs for Spin magazine in 2020 when I was 23. And like, I mean, just. Just like, who is. Who is writing with this kind of, like, specificity and emotional intelligence? Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

But, Karen, if you gave me your diary tomorrow, it was not good.

[Karen Gans]

No, no.

[Wesley Morris]

From when you were 23, I'm sure.

[Karen Gans]

I'm sure you're very generous. You know, her father is a therapist, and she has said in the past, you know, that she's in therapy and that that has helped her work out things. I just think she sees things from, like, a really complex perspective for a young person. And there are parts of this album where she's getting into the breakup phase of it, where she is describing, like, laying next to her boyfriend and feeling like, this isn't right and how do I get out of this? Yeah, that's a really mature thing, I will say. Like, you know, the nose to the grindstone. You know, like, she's looking at it from here. Perspective on the entire relationship. Like, to me, the weakness, if there are any, is that it's missing.

[Wesley Morris]

There's no wisdom.

[Karen Gans]

No. There's no outside perspective. It's all really insular.

[Wesley Morris]

What would that look like for you?

[Karen Gans]

I don't know, but it's like.

[Wesley Morris]

You mean she calls up a girlfriend?

[Karen Gans]

Well, I mean, part of what I actually, like, long for on this album is the sort of like I'm processing this with somebody who's not myself or him.

[Wesley Morris]

Huh.

[Karen Gans]

You know, there's one of these songs. I think it's. It might even be what's Wrong with Me. Like, she's too. She wants to call a friend, but she can't get out of bed.

[Wesley Morris]

Right. Yeah. That sounds like the right song.

[Karen Gans]

Yeah, I think it's that. But I mean, the thing that I love on her other albums that I think is missing again, only because of

[Wesley Morris]

She's Got Homies on the floor.

[Amy Lawrence]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

It's just so.

[Karen Gans]

Just the two of them and that world. And I get why it is like that. And also, I mean, and people who threaten, you know, to penetrate that world. You know, she always sings a lot about other women and jealousy and things like that. There's one of these that penetrates.

[Wesley Morris]

There's one of these here, right? Yeah. Called My Way. I kind of like it.

[Karen Gans]

I love that song. Because part of what you're also missing is like, fun and wit and whimsy, which we do get in my favorite song, which we're approaching. But like, all those things are like, you know, like a bad idea. Right. Or a get em back Olivia and stuff like, that's what I'm missing. Because even on the happy part of the album, when she's blissfully in love, it's not. Doesn't sound particularly fun.

[Wesley Morris]

All right, so, Karen, what's your favorite song here? Hit me.

[Karen Gans]

Expectations.

[Wesley Morris]

That's like one of my favorite songs

[Karen Gans]

in the show ejection scene.

[Narrator/Reader]

I met him at a party.

[Karen Gans]

I love Expectations so much.

[Wesley Morris]

I love Expectations so much.

[Karen Gans]

I know. And when I listened to the album for the first time, Joe Coscarelli was like, what's your favorite song? And I was like, guess. And he said, expectations. I was like, okay. So I'm like, am I that obvious or is it really that great a song? It is that great a song.

[Wesley Morris]

It is the greatest song.

[Karen Gans]

Because you are craving this relief the entire album. I'm just like, Olivia Let loose. That's why I like My Way, the song where she's mad at some other girl.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. I love my favorite mode of her. I think this album convinced me that she is an excellent ballad writer and performer. But I also love that. That surprise. The change ups that she can offer in the ballads now, but also with these. With these like punch in the face songs.

[Podcast Announcer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Where the first verse is sung and the second verse is like talk sung. Yes, right. And she's such a good talk singer. And that is when the fun attitudinal person comes all the way out. And I wouldn't want her on my bad side and I definitely would be the girl behind her being like, yeah, yeah, Livia.

[Karen Gans]

But this is one of her moods.

[Wesley Morris]

Read her.

[Karen Gans]

Right. She's funny. I think she's really funny. And like one of the ways she is most funny is when she is singing about like awkwardness.

[Wesley Morris]

Right, right, right. So expectation is essentially like taking all of, you know, the relationship is clearly at its end.

[Karen Gans]

She's done.

[Wesley Morris]

She's going out to try to like make some improvements.

[Karen Gans]

And it's rough out there.

[Narrator/Reader]

I'm not kissing anymore. That is positive.

[Wesley Morris]

This song to. To me is the apotheosis of all the musical ideas because to me, I hear. I guess I hear Blur, you know?

[Karen Gans]

That's so funny. Okay, we came into this differently.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay.

[Karen Gans]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Boys and girls.

[Paul Tanorio]

Yeah.

[Karen Gans]

A lot of singing for you in this episode. I'm loving it.

[Wesley Morris]

I hear that.

[Karen Gans]

Okay.

[Wesley Morris]

But then, you know, there's this. This. This like, is almost like a suite of a song suite.

[Paul Tanorio]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

There are these moments.

[Karen Gans]

I mean, it's pretty compact, but yeah, it's all happening very.

[Wesley Morris]

A lot of stuff happening in the song.

[Karen Gans]

See, to me, this is like early 2000s dance punk.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Karen Gans]

This is the rapture. It's the faint, you know, it's whatever. And she is just. I just. It takes off. The drums are so fun. It's just like everything is fun in the song. The music, the lyrics. He's like back out there knowing that things are going to be challenging. She's older, she's wiser. She's not going to date some loser with a fake job, which is hilarious. Anthony Fantano asked her what a fake job is.

[Wesley Morris]

I was going to say, and I

[Karen Gans]

knew exactly what she meant.

[Wesley Morris]

What is a fake job?

[Karen Gans]

There's one of her exes that I think bad idea.

[Megan Lorum]

Right.

[Karen Gans]

And all of them are about a fake job. Is like a celebrity dj.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, interesting.

[Karen Gans]

Tastemaker. A creative Director. I've heard that people on Raya in LA run into these people all the time. And it's like, but what is it that you do? Part of what I love about Olivia is that she's a worker.

[Wesley Morris]

She works.

[Karen Gans]

She appreciates a person.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. I mean, we just talked about the possibility that she spent a month on one line.

[Karen Gans]

On that one line. I mean, who knows? But anyway, the song is just so frothy, but also edgy. And she's so. She's having fun with being kissed, but

[Wesley Morris]

she's also having fun just with this music. Right. That toward the end of the song, there's this great moment where the men show up. She's got big expectations.

[Narrator/Reader]

She's got real big expectations.

[Karen Gans]

Oh, oh. It's Dan Nigro singing, I believe, like, very robotic. Mr. Roboto backup vocals.

[Wesley Morris]

Got real expectations. I heard Material Girl.

[Karen Gans]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, it's so wonderful the way that, like, the decades are collapsed here. Because the 2000s that you're hearing the 90s that I'm hearing the 80s of Madonna.

[Karen Gans]

Yep.

[Wesley Morris]

And then I don't know if you caught this, but the triangle from Escapade, the duh duh duh duh that's in this song at least three times.

[Karen Gans]

Unbelievable.

[Wesley Morris]

So exciting to hear this sound that is just yanked in from a Janet Jackson record. To me, I don't know. I'm hearing that triangle, and I'm going straight to Escapade. Anyway, I mean, I just love this song.

[Karen Gans]

Cause it just launches her back out, you know? Like, she's been. She was so excited in the beginning, and then she's sort of, like, settling into a sort of domesticity. And then she's kind of, like, held in a prison by it. And then she's wiggling her way out of it, and then she's just, like, bouncing out of there free.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, we're gonna bounce to a break, and when we come back, I love to situate this album in its life on the charts right now. Cause it's now got some really interesting company from, you know, songs by a couple other people. And, you know, this album really feels like it's part of this conversation that's happening in movies and in other songs about just, you know, what people want in relationships or what they don't want. So we'll take a break. We'll be back. Karen Gans and me, talking about Olivia Rodrigo.

[Narrator/Reader]

Foreign.

[Podcast Announcer]

This podcast is supported by BetterHelp. Have you ever had so many tabs open that your computer starts slowing down? Life can feel like that too. Better Help's 2026 State of Stigma report found that 74% of Americans believe society still discourages asking for help. Therapy can help you sort through what's taking up space and quietly affecting you. With BetterHelp, connect with a licensed therapist online and switch anytime. Maybe it's time to close a few tabs. Visit betterhelp.com newyorktimes to get started.

[Paul Tanorio]

I'm Paul Tanorio. I cover soccer for the Athletic.

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I almost forgot to mention the best part, Amy. Free access to the Athletics World cup coverage in our app.

[Amy Lawrence]

Download the Athletic app and see you there.

[Wesley Morris]

We're back. Karen Gans, we're talking about Olivia Rodrigo's new album. But while I've got you, I was wondering if you could help me feel my way through. Think out some observation I have with respect to what this album is doing in the context of, you know, our stagnant Billboard chart.

[Narrator/Reader]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

We are having this conversation the week the songs from this album, all 13 songs enter the Hot 100, basically in the top 30. And the company that she is clogging, right, Like, I mean the number one song in the country right now is Taylor Swift. I remembered I loved you I knew it, I knew you from Toy Story 17, the soundtrack of that movie. It's Toy Story 5, everybody.

[Narrator/Reader]

But I knew it, I knew you I knew it, I knew yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Olivia Rodrigo's overwhelm includes taking over, you know, Ella Langley, who's a big chart presence right now, drinking jack all by my side. He's choosing Texas country singer who you know, does a kind of middle of the road country love song. You know, Olivia Dean's been there for a minute.

[Narrator/Reader]

Just come be the man I need Tell me you got something to give.

[Wesley Morris]

Olivia Dean is basically asking, you know, the Man I Need is a song about. Just use your words, buddy. Say it. So there's just something really interesting about like simultaneously this relationship question. And then, you know, there's a kind of like sadness to some of these songs. Ariana Grande's Hate that I made you love me.

[Narrator/Reader]

Made you love me. Sorry if I made me a type.

[Wesley Morris]

I don't know. I don't.

[Karen Gans]

This.

[Wesley Morris]

The. These songs seem to be conversant with something happening in this moment.

[Karen Gans]

And are they saying men do better?

[Wesley Morris]

Men, comma, do better? Yeah, kind of. Yes. I mean, well then there's Drake, the one man in the top 10, basically who's like, you don't speak. All these women are like, I wish you would use your words. Yeah, I wish you would say more. Please talk. Talk. Drake's like, I'd rather you didn't talk. On Janice Shut the fuck up, which is, you know, the biggest hit from Ice.

[Karen Gans]

It's interesting cause I had a thought about the sound of the chart right now. It's so funny. That's where I go first. And you go first to the lyrics. That says a lot about us. But I think it speaks to the anxiety and the lack. I'm gonna say lack of articulateness as I can't figure out what I'm trying to say.

[Wesley Morris]

No, but this seems great.

[Karen Gans]

But I feel like people. This is like people don't read books and they're using AI to speak for them. And this is just very reflective of the moment. It's not a very literary moment. It's not a very lyrical moment. And that's why Olivia stands out so in this world. But I was gonna say the charts to me sound just like a weird 80s mainstream radio station.

[Megan Lorum]

Sure.

[Karen Gans]

Legitimately. I was just like buzzing through the top 10 and it was like. I think LL Langley to me is just like vibey country.

[Paul Tanorio]

Yeah.

[Karen Gans]

So there's like vibey country. I mean, it's perfectly fine. The Ariana song is like vibey mid tempo synth pop. The Olivia Dean and Bruno Mars songs are like bat Mitzvah music. Let's be real.

[Paul Tanorio]

Really?

[Karen Gans]

That's what's happening.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, although is what bat Mitzvah is asking for. Man, that I need. I can see that.

[Karen Gans]

I can see that people play really crazy stuff at bar and bat mitvahs. Just. I've had.

[Wesley Morris]

I just might. I get it. But like, man, I need. I don't know.

[Karen Gans]

People will be dancing to that.

[Wesley Morris]

Fine. But I mean, I think that, well, so what is your conclusion here? Like, I mean, it's just a very

[Karen Gans]

wishy washy, undefined moment. It's been a rough few years where, you know, there's superstars with big albums and. And there's like sort of anonymous people with big songs. You know, there's just a lot of things where it's like, it feels like a land of one hit wonders and blockbuster albums. And then everything else in between is just sort of like. And Drake, obviously, who is something else entirely, but like, there's these singular figures, you know, so on the charts right now, it's like Drake and Olivia and then kind of like everybody else. I like Olivia Dean and I like a lot of these other things and I like. Do you like Olivia Dean?

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, I do.

[Karen Gans]

I know I have a fondness, a warmth. I'm not a fan.

[Wesley Morris]

You've got a fondness for Diet Whitney. I love it. I mean, it's just. I mean, she does scratch an itch, right?

[Karen Gans]

She does.

[Wesley Morris]

And I think Olivia Rodrigo. It'll be interesting to see like, how we live with this album, like, as a public, as a culture, because it is satisfying something. And I'm really curious about what it could be that it's satisfying.

[Karen Gans]

It is. But I mean, again, it's obviously meant to be listened to as an album. We discussed it as a concept album. It's a suite of songs. They all go together.

[Wesley Morris]

I believe this about these songs. Yes, yes.

[Karen Gans]

But I don't know that I. I will enjoy listening to it front to back as an album. And I think, you know, I think Stupid song is going to be the breakout right now. Like, it shot up. I think it's number three. It's first week. And it seems like, I mean, that it was released as a third single. I think that that one's going to eclipse the first two singles, even though I love the Cure.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, you do?

[Karen Gans]

I do, I do.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay.

[Narrator/Reader]

Yeah.

[Karen Gans]

When you get to the drums at the end of the Cure, I'm just like, literally like, yes. You know, I'd be yassing her with a fan if we were any. If we were in pride. It's amazing. Like, she really. She takes you there. She can go from, you know, 0 to 100 in a really effective way. But the rest of the charts right now, I mean, you know, my social media handles. We're Met Patrol. It's a lot of meh.

[Wesley Morris]

It is a lot of meh.

[Karen Gans]

It's a lot of meh. This is literally what I am looking for.

[Wesley Morris]

But I guess the thing that's so interesting to me is the need that people have to feel like they need their hits right now. Very pre chewed. You know, all these Olivia Rodrigo songs enter the chart. You know, they. They storm the chart. And Bruno Mars is like number 11, right? Like, he's still. She can't push him any further down. And he has been like very slowly making. It's been what, like 20 something weeks of him being just in the top 10. And he's finally. I mean, this is what he does. He's just outside knocking like, you know, can I get back in?

[Karen Gans]

He'll be back in, Bruno.

[Wesley Morris]

I'm not worried about it.

[Karen Gans]

But Bruno Mares was like, literally like he was built in a lab to make Hot 100 hits. This is just what he does.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Karen Gans]

And they have like. They have like a vibe and a sheen and just a thing about them that says Hot 100 hit. And Olivia songs don't. And I like that about her. And part. She said in some of the interviews for this album, it's like, you know, she had to make a decision, like, am I gonna be the person who writes songs? Aiming for the charts? Am I gonna write person who writes songs? Cause I'm writing songs. And I think she's the kind of person. She's Jalen Brunson. She's willing to.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, my God. Wow.

[Karen Gans]

We had to go there eventually, but she.

[Wesley Morris]

I tried Emily Dickinson and got shut down. But you know what, Karen?

[Karen Gans]

We're gonna see.

[Wesley Morris]

I'm opening up your Jalen Brunson metaphor.

[Karen Gans]

We're gonna see through Jalen Brunson for my benefit.

[Wesley Morris]

So she's driving in the pain. She's cheating. Not a fear in the world.

[Karen Gans]

Willing to take a financial hit for the good of the team.

[Wesley Morris]

Elbow me, Taylor Swift. Elbow me. I'll take it.

[Karen Gans]

Willing to make a decision that she might not be aiming for the top of the charts every time. She's just gonna be writing her songs.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, you know, it's interesting. Cause Drop Dead to Me is a surprising single because, I mean, every time I hear it, I have to remind myself, oh, wait, I'm hearing this. I've heard it on the radio. But not. It wasn't. It's such an unusual song because it's simultaneous. It's like the album cover, right? It's simultaneously ecstatic and melancholy. You know, I mean, I feel like these songs are. I mean, it's funny. They're just a little bit more sophisticated than the other songs on the chart.

[Karen Gans]

Well, when we're looking at the chart right now, it's like, a lot of these songs are like, jv, right? And she's, like, getting her doctorate.

[Paul Tanorio]

Right.

[Karen Gans]

I'm mix metaphors.

[Paul Tanorio]

I don't care.

[Karen Gans]

I don't care.

[Wesley Morris]

It's funny. You said jv, and I'm like, juris. Juris doctor. Is she a lawyer on this?

[Karen Gans]

She's in the NBA. She's Dalen Brunson now. Okay. That would have been the appropriate metaphor.

[Wesley Morris]

Got it. But I mean, how do we. I mean, how are you thinking about the sort of emotional tenor of this moment as these songs are, like, proliferating around?

[Karen Gans]

I mean, it's a weird. I mean, I don't know what the chart is telling us right now, other than, like, the music industry has been in a really weird moment for at least two to three years. I've been making my year end list at the. You know, literally at the last minute for the last few years and, like, scrounging around sometimes for stuff. I'm just, like, listening to a full album. I'm like, it's fine, but it's not an album, you know? And another thing about the chart right now is, like, we're looking at these other artists. I mean, Olivia Dean Malcolm, Todd Sombra. Like, these are songs. I don't know that they're on albums where I'm like, that's an album of the year album. Olivia has made an album of the year album.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Karen Gans]

It's not timeless, but if you ask me what year this came out, I don't know that I would say 2026. So I kind of feel like it's on a little bit of an island on the charts right now, which is why it's actually kind of, like, amusing to see it flood the top 10 like that.

[Wesley Morris]

The thing that you're identifying about this Olivier Rodrigo album is that it's not only that it doesn't sound like 2026, but 2026 doesn't have a sound. Right. But 2025 didn't have one.

[Karen Gans]

No, this has been ongoing.

[Wesley Morris]

And so we're in this strange, funky twilight zone or Bermuda Triangle, even, of progress musical innovation. Right. And this. This Olivia Rodrigo album, to me, is this casserole of ideas, you know, built around a person who is very 2026 in some ways, but is also, like, musically and artistically an old soul. I don't know. Does this feel. How does that make you feel as a person who loves things that go this way? I mean, I know you love your past.

[Karen Gans]

Well, I was, like, gonna Say, I mean, how personal do you want this to be? I'm like, honestly, I had trouble doing my job as pop music editor the past few years because there are very few narratives that make sense in pop music right now. My job was just. It was getting harder and harder and harder. And this is partially why. I mean, the last time I felt like there was, like, a movement was like, two years ago when it was, like, Chapel and Sabrina kind of happening at the same time. And there was just sort of, like a gap in the pop whatever stratosphere, and they kind of wiggled into it, and it was just like. It felt like an exciting moment, and it felt like something was happening in the super mainstream under the radar, you know, like, lots of interesting things have been happening the whole time that I feel like. Olivia's also still indebted to. You know, she's taking Grace Ives on tour. I know she's a fan of hers. She made the album that Lorde wishes she had made in the past few years. For real.

[Podcast Announcer]

It's true.

[Wesley Morris]

It's true. I mean, it's funny. Cause I thought about Lorde.

[Karen Gans]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Thought about Kelly Clarkson.

[Karen Gans]

Yep.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, Kelly Clarkson could sing all of these songs.

[Karen Gans]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

But she didn't.

[Karen Gans]

I mean, it's just, you know, it's interesting.

[Wesley Morris]

Like, this is such a. This is such a. You know, now the student is the teacher in some way. And I think that a lot of people can look at this album, you know, if they so choose, and just see that there's another way.

[Karen Gans]

Olivia is such a pure songwriter. It's really what she is, you know? And again, like, the careful consideration to every turn of phrase. I forgot there was another. We didn't mention it. I can't remember what song where she's like, a penny in the fountain, like, waiting to be lucky or something.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, yeah.

[Karen Gans]

That's one of my favorite lines. There's just so many moments like that. Like, this is just. It's. I'm sorry she had to have her heart broken, but, like, it just. It was good for everybody, unfortunately.

[Wesley Morris]

Wow. Karen.

[Karen Gans]

I know.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. I mean, the entire history of the form is essentially somebody recovering from being hurt.

[Paul Tanorio]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

And finding a way to perform the pain of, you know, all those shattered pieces. She's just very good at detailing each shard. And I think she could probably do this for, like, the next 40 years. Just, like, a lot. I mean, I hope she doesn't get her heartbroken for 40 years, but, like, she could definitely, you know, fill a bunch of boxes with the shards

[Narrator/Reader]

we

[Karen Gans]

need more of that on the charts right now. If Expectations became a number one hit, I would be the happiest person in the world.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, right now it's like, can

[Karen Gans]

we make it happen?

[Wesley Morris]

It is on the chart. Like, let's do it. Expectations, y' all just put all your chips on that song. Thanks for doing this. I really appreciate it.

[Karen Gans]

Thank you, Wesley.

[Megan Lorum]

Hi, I'm Megan Lorum, the director of photography at the New York Times. A photograph can do a lot of different things. It can connect us. It can bring us to places we've never been before. It can capture a story in a universal visual language. But one thing that all these photographs have in common is that, you know, they don't just come out of the ether. We spend a lot of time anticipating news stories, working with the best photographers across the globe. These are photographers who have spent years mastering their technical craft, developing their skills as visual chroniclers of our world. You know, getting certified as a scuba diver and learning how to shoot underwater to document climate change or tremendous cardiovascular training in order to ski on the slopes next to Olympic athletes. This is an effort that takes tons of time and consideration and resources. All of this is possible only because of New York Times subscribers. If you're not a subscriber yet, you can become [e-mail] subscribe

[Narrator/Reader]

foreign.

[Wesley Morris]

Was produced by Janelle Anderson and John White. It was edited by Austin Mitchell. This episode was engineered by Daniel Ramirez. It was recorded by Matty Masiello, Kyle Grandillo and Nick Pittman. It's got original music by Dan Powell and Diane Wong. Our theme music's by Justin Ellington. Bobby Dougherty took the photo from for our show Art. Our audience team is Katie o' Brien and Maria Abdulkoff. Our video team is Felice Leon and Brooke Minters. Our podcast video fellow is Gavi Contreras. This episode was filmed by Andrew Smith and Lauren Pruitt. It was edited by Amy Marino and Hayden Frieland. We're on YouTube. You knew that. Watch and subscribe. We'll be back next week. Thanks for listening, everybody. And Gold.