Over 20,000 Restaurants in New York City. Only One List

Summary

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Cannonball with Wesley Morris — Episode Summary

Episode Title: Over 20,000 Restaurants in New York City. Only One List

Air Date: May 28, 2026

Host: Wesley Morris

Guest: Ligaya Mishan (New York Times Dining Critic)

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Main Theme

This episode dives into the daunting and delicious task of defining what makes a restaurant "the best" in a city bursting with over 20,000 of them: New York. Wesley Morris is joined by Ligaya Mishan, who recently compiled the New York Times’ list of the 100 Best Restaurants in NYC. They discuss what it takes to rank such a wildly diverse range of eateries, the process and philosophy behind building a list, debates about what “restaurant” even means, and how food culture in New York reflects deeper changes happening in the city and the restaurant industry at large.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Eating Across NYC: The Journey of Making the List

• Ligaya’s Process: She ate at over 200 restaurants and sampled more than 300 desserts to create a snapshot of NYC dining in 2026. She tried everything from $2.50 Trinidadian street food to a $550 omakase meal.
  • "I’m feeling very full. You know, it was a marathon, and then it was a sprint." — Ligaya (05:19)
• Inclusivity of List: There are no quotas—if there are four great Taiwanese places in Elmhurst, they all go in. The list resists the idea that greatness should be rarefied or defined by exclusivity.
• NYC Character: Scrappiness, singularity, and ingenuity show up throughout—the "New Yorkiness" of a place mattered to Ligaya.

2. Rethinking the Canon: Debating "Best" and the Hierarchies of Taste

• Destabilizing the Old Order: The list aims to shake up perceptions of what counts as “the best,” challenging the dominance of fine dining and Michelin/white-tablecloth archetypes.
  • "Lists are the great unifiers because they bring everyone together to disagree with them." — Ligaya (06:07)
• Against Ranking Fetishism: While she tried objective systems (assigning points for starters, mains, desserts, etc.), Ligaya ultimately recognizes the absurdity of pure data ranking; intuition and a sense of place won out.
• Defining “New Yorkiness”: Not just about cuisine, but about the spirit—restaurants eking out miracles in under-equipped kitchens, people going "all in" against long odds.

3. Memorable Restaurants and Stand-Out Experiences

• Mama Lee (Bayside, Queens, #10): A tiny Taiwanese restaurant run by one woman. It exemplifies self-sufficiency and singular vision, where you might have to ring a bell for service and are told to save your tip for someone else.
  • "She slapped my hand and said, I’m the only one here. Save it for the college kids." — Ligaya (15:55)
• Meiju (Long Island City, Queens, #4): Luxury Korean tasting counter hidden behind a banchan shop. Unique for serving a 131-year-old soy sauce drop on your hand.
  • "He says, we hope your meal tonight will be delicious, but that is not our mission." — Ligaya (19:41)
  • "You’re tasting something that had to survive decades of Japanese occupation of war... It’s complicated." — Ligaya (22:24)
• Cabawa (#1): Caribbean fine diner on historic Extra Place, helmed by Paul Carmichael, marrying heritage and innovation.
  • "He is not elevating Caribbean food... He shows us what its possibilities are, and he brings his own artistry and vision to it." — Ligaya (24:02)

4. Responding to Criticism: What Makes a Restaurant, and Who Gets Included?

• Debate over Definitions: Some readers want fine dining and take-out separated. Ligaya counters that greatness exists in a truck as much as in a temple.
  • "It is possible that the dumplings that you eat on the street corner are more perfect in what they are... than you might find at a tasting counter." — Ligaya (36:58)
• Democratizing Access: Wesley praises the list for inviting everyone in; making it possible for anyone to eat at one of the city’s “best” on any budget.
  • "Your list is a democratization event... Many different people an opportunity to say, hey, this biddy experience that I am trying to offer... is as good as what is going on at Jean-Georges." — Wesley (39:43)

5. Macro Trends & Changing Food Culture

• The Era of Chainification: Concern about moneyed chains supplanting independent, characterful places. Boba shops taking over Chinatown; possible external investment reshaping neighborhoods (43:14).
• Instagram, Anti-Instagram, and the Tyranny of the “Right Dish”: New resistance among restaurants to photogenic “food porn.”
  • "Dimness is in right now for sure... There are times when it’s such a relief to not take a photo... to just eat." — Ligaya (45:11, 46:17)
• Loss of Spontaneity and Research Overload: Getting a hot table now requires battle plan and research; the joy of ordering "wrong" or discovering the pleasure in unexpected dishes (47:27).

6. Favorite Dishes & Joys of the Project

• Mama Lee’s Lion’s Head Meatballs:
  • "It almost calves like a glacier, if that makes sense. Like when you cut into it." — Ligaya (49:10)
• Shaunae’s House (Staten Island, Soul Food): The whole fried fish—double-fried, served standing up, as airy as it is delicious. But also, the warmth of Shaunae herself, hugging every guest.
  • "Your meal has not really begun until Shaunae comes out to your table, gives you a hug and tells you that she loves you, and you feel like she means it." — Ligaya (51:09)

7. Ending on a Sweet Note

• Surprise Dessert from Lise Patisserie: Korean-French fusion, would be on the list if bakeries were included.
  • "It’s a corn. It’s a corn. So this is a whole thing, of course, in Paris at patisseries, seeing how perfectly you can imitate life in these different shapes. But I’m so curious to hear what you think." — Ligaya (53:10, 53:26)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Lists are the great unifiers because they bring everyone together to disagree with them." — Ligaya (06:07)
• "I wanted to create a portrait of the city… this list, take it as a map. This is a quest." — Ligaya (09:58)
• On defining New Yorkiness: "So many of these restaurateurs and chefs are working in tiny spaces. This is true. Low like to high end, in incredibly small kitchens, under equipped, eking out miracles. And to me, that is deeply New York." — Ligaya (14:28)
• "She slapped my hand and said, I’m the only one here. Save it for the college kids." (Mama Lee) — Ligaya (15:55)
• "He says, 'We hope your meal tonight will be delicious, but that is not our mission.'" (Meiju Chef) — Ligaya (19:41)
• "You’re tasting something that had to survive decades of Japanese occupation of war… It’s complicated." (on 131-year-old soy sauce at Meiju) — Ligaya (22:24)
• "He is not elevating Caribbean food... He shows us what its possibilities are..." (on Kabawa Chef Paul Carmichael) — Ligaya (24:02)
• "Your list is a democratization event." — Wesley (39:43)
• "It is possible that the dumplings you eat on the street corner are more perfect in what they are and are delivered to you with more warmth than you might find at a tasting counter..." — Ligaya (36:58)
• "Dimness is in right now for sure... There are times when it’s such a relief to not take a photo, to just go to a restaurant and eat.” — Ligaya (45:11, 46:17)
• "It almost calves like a glacier, if that makes sense." (on Mama Lee’s Lion’s Head Meatballs) — Ligaya (49:10)
• "Your meal has not really begun until Shaunae comes out to your table, gives you a hug and tells you that she loves you, and you feel like she means it." — Ligaya (51:09)
• “…it’s a corn. It’s a corn!” (on patisserie trompe l’oeil from Lise) — Ligaya (53:10)

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Important Timestamps

• 05:19–05:43 — Ligaya describes the sheer physical and mental demands of compiling the list.
• 08:31–09:27 — Why the list includes a broad range of restaurants, not just the fine-dining elite.
• 12:55–14:14 — Discussion of criteria: food, ambiance, “New Yorkiness,” and why pure scoring doesn’t work.
• 15:09–17:12 — The story of Mama Lee: singularity, passion, quirks, and why some places close temporarily.
• 18:01–23:06 — Deep dive into Meiju (fermentation, soy sauce 131 years old, redefining luxury).
• 24:02–31:30 — Kabawa’s philosophy; what makes chef Paul Carmichael special and why his approach to Caribbean food matters.
• 35:47–38:02 — Amy’s criticism (“takeout isn’t a restaurant!”) and Ligaya’s answer about redefining greatness.
• 41:12–42:13 — Hopley’s comeback story in Chinatown; pandemic impacts.
• 43:14–44:19 — The “chainification” threat in NYC neighborhoods.
• 45:03–47:27 — The Instagram era, anti-photography mood, and loss of spontaneity in eating out.
• 48:20–51:09 — Ligaya’s personal highlights: Mama Lee's meatballs and Shaunae’s House’s fried fish experience.
• 51:40–54:00 — Wesley surprised with dessert from Lise Patisserie, ending the episode with shared sweets.

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Tone and Style

The conversation is warm, wry, intimate, occasionally irreverent, and always deeply appreciative of the variety and grit of New York's food scene. Both speakers approach the subject with curiosity, humor, and respect for individuality—whether in food or in the people who make and eat it.

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Summary Takeaway

This episode of Cannonball is a rich, meandering feast—an exploration of not just the “best” of New York’s food, but what makes dining in the city magical, maddening, and meaningful. The list is not a decree but an invitation: to taste widely, to debate, and above all, to recognize and support the delicious chaos that is New York’s true flavor.

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Transcript

[A]

This podcast is supported by Neon and the film the Christophers from Academy Award winning director Steven Soderbergh. The Christophers stars Ian McKellen and Mikaela Cole as painters facing off over an art world forgery in an escalating game of playful psychological cat and mouse. Nick Shager of the Daily beast raves, Ian McKellen is superb and calls the Christophers a front to back delight and further proof that Soderbergh remains one of American cinema's most adventurous auteurs. The the Christophers is now available everywhere you rent or buy movies.

[B]

Hey everybody, guess what? Cannonball is gonna do its first ever live show at the Tribeca Festival this year. The category is gonna be Art About New York City. Join me and a very special guest on Friday, June 12th at 6:00pm I'll say it again, Friday, June 12th at 6pm the category is Great Art About New York. You can get your tickets right [e-mail] audio that's tribecafilm.com audio I can't wait to see you there. Come out. I'm Wesley Morris and this is Cannonball. Today, dinner is served. Anytime. I am on my way somewhere in Southern Bed Stuy. That's in Brooklyn. I will make sure I am just hungry enough to pass by A and A baked doubles and roti from the street. This place, it's nothing special. It's just like a red awning, windows and a door. But the minute I get what I order, which is a double, there's chickpeas, spiced and stewed and wrapped with a whole lot of Trinidadian love, I get taken someplace I wish I could stay forever. It's like eating a pot pie, like it's a giant candy bar. I mean, I am recording this on an empty stomach and the thought of A and A at all right now is making me want to cry. So I'm going to try to get through this without shedding a tear. This isn't the kind of restaurant that some people would expect to find on a list of the greatest restaurants. First of all, where are the waiters? Second, there's a particularly transfixing photo of Nicki Minaj near the order window. Third, roti is considered street food. If you like your double with shrimp, it's $4. So maybe this place is too accessible to be great. But can I please introduce you to Legaya Michonne, one of the New York Times dining critics? She made a list of the 100 greatest restaurants in New York City. And right There at number 95 is A and A. Because if you know, you know, and legaya knows. Legaya's list puts a place like A and A alongside more expensive places where it can be tough to get a seat sometimes because. Sometimes because there aren't that many seats. Like our number one, Kabawa, this incredibly delicious, extremely imaginative Caribbean spot that has given me one of my favorite dining experiences that I've had recently. Lagaya's list is an argument that a great restaurant could just be a food truck, and that great food could be anywhere. All five boroughs are on her list. But this. This isn't just about how great New York is. It's about how, when it comes to food, New York City is the world. And a lot of the world is on her list. To put this thing together. Here's what Legaia did. She ate 217 meals, 312 desserts, 28 pasta dishes, three snail dishes, only three legaya. The most expensive thing she ordered was a $550 omakase. And the cheapest were those Trinidadian doubles, $2.50. And she spent $165 on an omelette because truffles, one of the great rip offs in dining. Truffles, I don't understand them, but one man's ripoff is clearly another person's flex. So I wanted to talk to legaya about how she put this thing together, what our most memorable experiences were, and what it means to call any dining experience the best. Laia Wesley, welcome to Cannonball. Listen, you have done a thing that is very arduous, requires a lot of work, time, sacrifice. You ate at more than 100 restaurants.

[C]

I did many more.

[B]

Some of them probably weren't fun to eat at.

[C]

Every restaurant has its own. You know, you can find something good. People are trying.

[B]

I mean, people are trying.

[C]

They are.

[B]

People are trying. We will talk about that, but I'm just wondering how you're feeling.

[C]

I'm feeling very full. You know, it was a marathon, and then it was a sprint.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

So toward the end, I was eating at five restaurants a day, but trying to approach each with a completely open mind, an open palate. So it's all been. I'm still in a little bit of a daze, but it's kind of gotta stop because work on the next list must begin.

[B]

So, I mean, I don't wanna get ahead of ourselves here, but I was gonna ask, are you gonna. Is this. Is this gonna. You're gonna do it every year?

[C]

Every year.

[B]

And so I'm first of all wondering where you've previously stood on these kind of canonical projects. And are you a person who enjoys them? Not only the making of them, but the consumption of them.

[C]

So lists are the great unifiers because they bring everyone together to disagree with them.

[B]

Yes, they do.

[C]

So there was this great piece by the film scholar Elena Gorfinkel from 2019 called against lists, where she lists all the reasons why we shouldn't.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

And part of this is I'm not going to be able to quote her exactly. But she says something along the lines of, you know, lists basically are just codifying the current order. They're just, you know, giving us, you know, it's just a picture of where power lies. And I think that can be true. But that list can also maybe destabilize the current order and help us to see things in a different light. We can question, what is it that we really value? What is a restaurant? What do we want from a restaurant? So I'm hoping that this. That this particular list does a little.

[B]

Well, talk to me more about the destabilization part. Like, what were you. What stabilization or what order, established order would you be hoping to disturb a little bit?

[C]

Well, I think that when. So when we think about restaurants and how they're rated and. And there's always, you know, the reference point is often Michelin.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

And so that is a system that in order to get the top rating at Michelin, a restaurant has to have a lot of resources. So only restaurants that are operating at a certain price point can really qualify for that. So there is a sense of, okay, so are those the only restaurants we can talk about when we're talking about the best? So what I want to say is, first of all, I want to acknowledge that when Pete Wells, the legend, started this list in 2023, he put a Lechon Trail that was only open on weekends in the Bronx in the top 10. He put the Queen's Night Market in the top 10, he put the Birria Landia Taco Truck above Danielle. So I think people have forgotten a little bit that actually every year the list has celebrated a wide range of restaurants. So I can't take credit for doing that. Although people seem to think maybe I've pushed it a little bit more than it's been done in the past.

[B]

Well, I should say that one of the things I love about your hundred restaurants is that they're really a reflection. You know, I have enjoyed reading your criticism for years. And, you know, for a long time, you wrote the. I would. I call it like the Pete Wells alternative. You were like the Village Voice to his New York Times.

[C]

Oh, I like that.

[B]

You know, and the column was called Hungry City. And you basically went to many of the restaurants that Pete didn't write about. And the way that you expressed your love of eating manifested in every different kind of restaurant in this city. And I feel like this list is such a reflection of that. Enthusiasm, passion, curiosity, sense of adventure. Like, I mean, this is an enormous city.

[C]

It is.

[B]

And one of the things that I love about it is that there is no stabilized order. It's pure chaos. Every borough you go to.

[C]

Well, so this is the other thing about a list. Right. Is a list can be a way to make sense of chaos. Right. That's why it can be helpful. So when I was researching the. I think the latest or the most recent government data, which is pre pandemic, so things could have changed, but that there are, you know, more than 20,000 restaurants in this city.

[D]

So.

[C]

Right. We have a hundred. And so I really wanted to create a portrait of the city. Obviously, it's a portrait at a specific moment in time. Restaurants aren't static. They're always changing. New ones will open, old ones that maybe started to languish will come back roaring to life. So my goal here was just to say this list, take it as a map. This is a quest. Let's go all over the city. The city is the city in all its corners. It is New York City. How can you know New York City if you see it only in one or two places that you go to on a regular basis? Right. Like you want. I wanted to embrace the whole city end to end.

[B]

And you know what I find exhilarating about this is that there appears to be no quota system.

[C]

There isn't.

[B]

Right. It is pure feeling. So if you love four or five different Taiwanese restaurants, let's do it.

[C]

They all go in. Well, I have to say, you step off the subway in Elmhurst and just all of those Thai restaurants, there were more I could have known. Yeah.

[B]

Let's just talk about Elmhurst as a. As a. What do we even call this? Like, the greatest food court on earth.

[C]

It's amazing. You know, I think that as Elmhurst,

[B]

Queens, by the way.

[C]

Yes, Elmhurst, Queens, an amazing neighborhood. And then, of course, there's Woodside, Jackson Heights. There's so many. This whole corridor of Queens is just.

[B]

It's insane.

[C]

Phenomenal. And you. And you step off the subway and are just walking and you want to enter every storefront.

[B]

I mean, a lot of these places, it's like a couple people. Like, it's like a husband and wife or two sisters.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Who just really know what they're doing. And sometimes it's just like. Queens is a magical place to just have a food accident. Like a happy food accident completely. Just by being adventurous.

[C]

Yes. You could just wander in. Also, there's the walk into a Thai grocery and just buy premade things. One of my favorite places is a steam table joint. So everything is made before you get there. It actually beat out other spots because in I realize it.

[B]

Which place is this? By name?

[C]

This is Khao Kang.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

And part of it is that he just makes the food the way he wants to make it. So there's none of this possible adjustment depending on your spice preference.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

He just lays it down. This is it. And I have to tell you that there were moments, so many moments when I thought I had a meal and I thought, oh, that restaurant is definitely top 10. And then it didn't end up there because there were so many good restaurants. It was so difficult. Can I tell you, I wrote down the names of restaurants on index cards and sort of started moving them around the floor in different orders. I felt like I was Carrie Matheson and Homeland.

[B]

I was gonna say, did you post. Were they up or were they down? They were on the floor.

[C]

They were on the floor because I just wanted to keep. I didn't want to have to deal with pins. And I just was like, I'm just gonna keep moving them. I'm just gonna keep thinking what makes sense.

[B]

So in your mind, then, you know, I'm wondering for you what the difference. If there is a difference between something like 60 and 39.

[C]

There is.

[B]

I mean, okay.

[C]

Okay, there is. So when I was first trying to do the rankings, I tried assigning points in different. I had different categories. And I really was breaking it down because I thought, this is how I'm going to do it, you know? Because what if a place had amazing starters and mains, but the desserts weren't great? Or what if this. You know, like, is there a way to. Is there a way to do this? And it's absurd, actually, you. It. The. You can't do it through pure data, if that makes sense. Because then I thought, okay, I can't even do this on how many points I was trying to do it out of 10. And then I thought, no, I'd have to do it out of a hundred. I'd have to get down into the point, whatever. How many places.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

So I did retain these categories, sure. I just didn't do literal points. But, you know, looking at obviously the, you know, everything from imagination, ambition, ambiance, service, sheer deliciousness. But there was this other category of New Yorkiness that mattered to me.

[B]

Which means what to you?

[C]

So I think that there is a certain scrappiness to the New York character that, you know, if you're born here, you're born with it. If you move here, you have to have it to make it.

[B]

You better get some.

[C]

This is the toughest crowd there is, this city. And to make it here, obviously you have to go all in. So I think that so many of these restaurateurs and chefs are working in tiny spaces. This is true. Low like to high end, in incredibly small kitchens, under equipped, eking out miracles. And to me, that is deeply New York.

[B]

So let's, let's just sort of go. Let's do some four examples here, right? Like, can you talk about a place that's on the list that like, you, you would enjoy thinking about as being like a New York restaurant or like, like, like has a New Yorkiness about it?

[C]

So I also think singularity is part of this. So for me, Mama Lee, which is at number 10 Taiwanese spot in. Okay, Mama Lee herself, Mei Lee, the chef, one person. Nobody else is there. Sometimes she gets her elderly mom, but most of the time it's just her. She lives down the street.

[B]

This is a place in Queens.

[C]

This place in Queens, Bayside, Queens. It's bright and that's about it. There's no more. That's the ambiance is that it's brightly lit, and if she's cooking, there's nobody up front. So there's a little bell, like the kind of old school bell that you would see in hotels.

[B]

You can ring a bell for service.

[C]

We could ring a bell if you need to. There's a rice cooker full of rice if you want more rice, which should always be available, I think.

[B]

Does it allow you to help yourself or is she gonna take it?

[C]

You can help yourself to the rice. And when I tried to tip her at the end, she slapped my hand and said, I'm the only one here. Save it for the college kids who are working at the Rice ma'. Am.

[B]

I make the prices. All the money is coming to me. So what are we doing?

[C]

Oh, the other, though, is that. So I had reviewed her years ago for Hungry City. I reviewed her spot and then somehow she opened in Williamsburg. And I thought, did some investor swoop in? And what happened here? And then it closed. And I received a DM from a worried customer who said, I worry that she was taken advantage of, and I don't know what's happened. And then I heard that she'd reopened back in her old space in Bayside. And so I asked her, what happened to Williamsburg? And she said, those kids eat so late at night. I want to go home.

[B]

God bless. Well, legaiah, I have some weird news for you about Mama Lee. Like, I. You know, the places I haven't been to before, you know, I'm just doing what everybody else does. Like, I read your list. I'm like, I've never heard of this place. I've never been to this place. Been meaning to go to this place. So I put it on my. I have a restaurant map of, you know, every city I go to. I just keep a map of where I'd like to eat or where I have eaten. I went to put Mama Lee on the map, succeeded in doing it, but it says, temporarily closed. What is that?

[C]

So this is also so true to character. She could care less about the list. She's on vacation. It'll be open again May 29th.

[B]

Okay. You just.

[C]

News everyone can use.

[B]

I got worried. I got worried. I'm like, did legaia close her that fast? Is she hiding in her house? What is happening right now?

[C]

She did tell me not to tell anyone, right? Cause it's in your.

[B]

In what you wrote. You basically are like, listen, I've ruined everything. I might be ruining everything, but this woman needs to know she is good at her job.

[C]

She is, because she might retire soon. Listen, this might be her one shot.

[B]

What else? What are some other memorable experiences that you had? Maybe in terms of passion, ambition, commitment. Yeah, commitment. I mean, talk to me about tasting commitment.

[C]

Wow. There's a Korean restaurant at number four. It's called Meiju. You know, to find a luxury tasting counter in Long Island City, Queens, this is already an unexpected move. You see those kinds of restaurants in Manhattan, and you see them in Brooklyn. There really are not. I don't know that many other places in Queens that come into that category. And this is a chef also, who was born in Korea, but who moved to the west when he was very, very young. And in some ways, that. That has drawn him to make food that's much more traditional. So when you go to Meizu, So part of the fun of Meizu also is that it's hidden at the back of a banchan shop. So.

[B]

Which is kind of a bit of a joke, right? I mean, you think you're. I mean, the Banchan shop is a great Banchan shop. You can go and get some delicious chicken.

[C]

In fact, the Banchan shop came first. He opened that. And then there's a space behind which has been transformed into this lovely, also another tasting counter. But what's magnificent about this restaurant. Oh, I should add, by the way, also, there is a kind of intermission during the dinner where you get to go and walk around the Banchon shop, which I suppose it is a little bit like.

[B]

That's not right.

[C]

No, no, I'm telling you, you're so excited. That moment. You want to buy everything in the store. It's so smart. It also helps because with any tasting menu, it's nice to. It's nice to have a moment of rest, to walk around.

[B]

Yeah. That's dangerous for me, though, because that gives me time to think about, like, what else is. What else might be coming, even if it's delicious.

[C]

So what's really interesting. So the way the. The night begins, and he might not say this every time, but he says, we hope your meal tonight will be delicious, but that is not our mission. So, I mean, I'm on the edge of my seat already. I want to know more. So the restaurant is devoted to fermentation, the ancient Korean craft of it, which was really intended historically and what was historically a poor country, not to extract or maximize flavor, but to turn food into medicine, to. To make it something that heals you. It's also delicious.

[B]

Yeah, he knows what he's doing.

[C]

He knows what he's doing. There's a bit of a show. But what's fantastic is that it feels. It feels a little like evangelism, but it also feels a little bit like love.

[B]

I mean, like, what are some of the fermented items that are coming your way as you eat? And how is he serving them?

[C]

So one thing there. There's no caviar, no truffles at this

[B]

restaurant, thank the Lord.

[C]

But the luxury you're getting that you can't get almost anywhere else. It's a soy sauce. It's called ganjang in Korean. It is 131 years old. So this was a soy sauce that started fermenting, you know, I think just a few years after Korea got its first electric light bulb. So this is predating, you know, airplanes, mass refrigeration, the theory of relativity. You're tasting something that had to survive decades of Japanese occupation of war, you know, during. During the Korean War. So it used to be that each family Almost every family would make their own soy sauce. And then this was all destroyed during the Korean War. Not all. So there is this. Here's this 131-year-old soy sauce. And the chef, Huni Kim, he brushes it on these jun, which are sort of fritter pancakes. And before he serves it, he asks, do you want to taste it just on its own? And we have these very beautiful brass spoons set in front of us. And he says, I can't put it in the spoon because that will change the flavor. So we put out our hands, and he puts just a drop on the back of the. Your hand and then you lick it up.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[C]

Well, that's just one of three soy sauces he presents.

[B]

Sorry. What does a 131-year-old soy sauce taste like?

[C]

Well, it's complicated. But what's interesting is that it's sort of saltiness that has been pushed until it's become almost. It's mellow, voluptuous almost. There's a cleanness to it. There are sort of these little undertones, you know, you might like. You think, oh, is that kind of like the turfiness of mushrooms or, you know, blue cheese? Like, there are these faint, distant notes, but they're all part of something that feels like this swath. And in some ways, the, the. The flavor isn't just one thing.

[B]

Wow. Sign me up.

[C]

You should go.

[B]

I'm coming.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Were you surprised by. I mean, I guess. Let's just talk about the list. So the number one restaurant on your list is Cabawa.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

On a tiny little street called Extra Place, which is.

[C]

Which is where? The back entrance of cbgb.

[B]

Yes, yes, yes. So you've got this, like this rock and roll landmark, essentially. And now it's being, you know, now it's this great Caribbean restaurant that has so many other things on its mind in terms of what Caribbean cooking can do. Look like be. Can you talk to me about your experience of. Of going to Cabawa? This restaurant was not a. It had maybe just opened when the list came out last year or hadn't opened yet, because I don't. Was it. Oh, it was on the list. It was like number five or number four.

[C]

It was number four, but it had just been open for maybe a month or so at that point. So what? The thing about Kabawa is that the chef, Paul Carmichael, he is not elevating Caribbean food. No, he sees it, he knows it, he honors it. He shows us what its possibilities are, and he brings his own artistry and vision to it. So essentially he's treating it like any other cuisine. All these other cuisines, we take for granted that chefs can put their own imprint on them and find ways to say something new within a traditional cuisine. But Caribbean food hasn't been given that same kind of access. It hasn't been. Been part of the upper ranks of dining in that sense. So I do feel that he's doing something that's not only kind of new at this moment, but important, and it's

[B]

a special place in terms of. If you're familiar with a lot of the dishes on this menu, the places he takes it are extraordinary, and they're very surprising.

[C]

Well, like the pepper shrimp, right?

[B]

Yeah. Well, I don't even know if I had that one of the nights I went.

[C]

So I went with a friend of mine who grew up in Jamaica, and she was slightly puzzled because the shrimp are raw.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

And they, you know, they have this. You know, they have this red powder. It's sorrel powder, and Scotch bonnets.

[B]

I did have these.

[C]

I did have these sort of are cooked down into these. There are these little dots of Scotch bonnet emulsion. And I remember so hot and gorgeously hot. And it's just a completely new approach to a dish that still captures its essence while tasting completely different.

[B]

I. I knew this person. Paul Carmichael was a special person. I found myself in Australia a few years ago.

[C]

Oh.

[B]

And I wanted to have a nice dinner while I was in Sydney, and so I went to one of the David Chang restaurants down there.

[C]

I think Momofuku Saobo. Is that.

[E]

What is it?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

And sat at the bar, and I was greeted by this man who was working the kitchen. He was operating the kitchen at Sabotage, and we were the only two black people in the restaurant.

[C]

Oh, wow.

[B]

It was Paul Carmichael who, like, basically, I'm gonna say it this way, because that's how it felt. This man made me dinner. Yes. He made me about eight dishes. And I'm saying me. It's a busy restaurant. But it seemed like he and I were, like, really talking about, you know, what it's like for him to be in Sydney. He misses his family. And one of the things he said he wanted to do was come back to the US and he was thinking about it, and what would it take for him to get there? Is now the time? What? What? What? Because, you know, he'd been working for this, you know, for the great David Chang. And what would some other expression of this thing that's in him look like to come out? And that meal was one of the great nights of my life. And I was like, I would love for this man to get a chance to open a restaurant. Anyway, I brought. Because I knew I was going to talk to you today. And you made the restaurant number one. You make cabal number one on your list. I keep the menu from that meal in a frame in my kitchen.

[C]

That's incredible.

[B]

This is like. This is what he cooked for me that night.

[C]

Oh, wow.

[B]

And it's just like. I mean, I'll read some of the things in the mofongo.

[C]

Fantastic.

[B]

I mean, and these are things that he's still. I mean, he's doing variations of some of these things in kabala. Let's see. Sea urchin with cassava pepper. Oh, my God, I can taste that right now. And I'm not a big sea urchin person either. Anyway, dukana, sweet potato, currants and Caribbean xo sauce, mamposto rice, beans, peanut. I mean, there are like, what's a big dish? Pernil? He gave me. He gave me.

[C]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Great. Pernil that he. That he cooked. But anyway, I just. I don't know. It's like a very magical thing when this is. The point of this list, in some ways, is that these restaurants do have. Even if you only go out, this is a restaurant that's expensive. It is, to me, a special. I mean, it can be a special occasion, a restaurant. If you're looking for one place to splurge on in a year, this is a great place to do it.

[C]

And I will say it's expensive, but also, within the context of New York City, fine dining, almost. Almost reasonable. And you get so much food. I remember a server there telling me,

[B]

we didn't finish everything.

[C]

She said, chef likes to feed people. I thought we were only getting three courses, but then there seemed to be so many side dishes that just materialized and is just very cool.

[B]

I call those side dishes. You know, typically, it's an amuse bouche. I'm like. It's like, these are, like, amuse booties, right? They're like. Like lots of nice things just coming out and, like, shaking their butts in your face. It's just. It's like a wonderful thing when somebody wants to overfeed you. But at some point, I mean, for me, honestly, I'm trying to get to dessert right? So I'd like to just not eat so much that I'm not interested in what sometimes at some restaurants really is the best thing that they have. But, yeah, I mean, I think they're. I think that part of the reason I framed that menu was because, you know, I had this magical experience with this black man at this restaurant where we were the only Negroes there. But also I had, I mean, every single thing he made was original, true to him in some way and delicious.

[C]

You know what I wanna. Things that I really admire is that first of all, he talked to me about how if he was doing certain with certain dishes, he said, I just wanna be in the conversation for best in class. So if he's doing it, he's chuletas, can, can. It's a little more traditional in approach. But he's also, it's fairly humble to say, I just want to be in the conversation. Right. But the other thing. So, you know, the setup of Kabawa is you have a tasting counter so you're at the open kitchen and you can interact with the cooks. I didn't see him on that side until the last time I visited because he was over at the bar, Bar Kabawa, which is a smaller, informal place on the side. And he was there cooking the patties because that's where they serve the patties.

[B]

The goat patties.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Okay. Yeah.

[C]

And so I asked him about it and he said, I go where I'm needed. It stood out to me, certainly. But it also said to me that he values those goat patties as much as he does the tasting menu. Those need to be as on point. So essentially the small joys matter too.

[B]

Okay, we should take a break and when we come back, I mean, I think I want to think about how we're talking about this list and maybe expand outward a little bit and also thinking about like how people are responding to it. But you know what this, how, how this list can be used to think about what it means to be eating in this country at all right now. So we'll be right back.

[C]

Sounds.

[F]

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[B]

Legaia. We're back.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

In case you thought you would be dismissed. You're still here.

[C]

Here I am.

[B]

And I just, you know, we're talking about this list. We're talking about, like, some of the wonderful things that happened to you while you were compiling it. Experiencing these restaurants, like, things I loved eating at some of these places that you went to. Things I'm excited to go to myself. But, you know, there are people out there who experience this with a lot of opprobrium in their hearts, passion. Sure, you can be nice about it. I'm gonna say some bullshit, and I think that some of what the power of this list is, and we talked about its ability to destabilize, you know, a way that we think about restaurants operating and what a restaurant is. But there are people out there who think if you aren't going into credit card debt to eat a meal, then you didn't need at a restaurant. So I just want to read you this comment from. From Amy F. Sorry, this list is nuts. So many of these are counter or takeout joints. I'm sure every spot on here has delicious food, but our restaurant, quote unquote, is a specific thing offering a dining experience. It's not just about food. Thank you. Amy would rather these kinds of lists be broken up into different categories, allowing for fine dining ranked among its contemporaries and casual gems ranked among its peers as well. Instead of mashing everything together, can you take this person to school?

[C]

Well, I understand Amy's concerns.

[B]

Don't you dare try to customer service me right now. Oh, no, Legaya this. Come on.

[C]

So I'm glad that Amy feels so strongly about Restaurants.

[B]

And are you a mother? You're a mother.

[C]

I am definitely a mom.

[B]

You're a mom who has some. Whose kid had some friends over. Oh, my God.

[C]

So, okay, so if we were. If we were talking about the greatest rock songs of all time.

[B]

Oh, wow. We just did that. Legaia. We just did a version of that.

[C]

So you might say Jimi Hendrix, Jimmy Page. Did anyone ever play guitar better? But then there's also the punk who can only bash out three chords but writes the song you remember your whole life.

[B]

Oh, so we're going back to Extra Place now?

[C]

We are. So everything is connected.

[B]

Yes. Yes, ma'. Am.

[C]

So I don't think it diminishes a fine dining restaurant to stand alongside a taco truck. Nothing is being taken away.

[B]

Oh, my God. I just got a little. I just welled up a little bit.

[C]

So it is possible that the dumplings that you eat on the street corner are more perfect in what they are and are delivered to you with more warmth than you might find at a tasting counter, where the food doesn't hit all its marks and the ambiance is a little chilly. So each restaurant, I think, needs to be taken on its own terms. That's the best that we can do as critics. You approach a restaurant on its own terms. What is it trying to achieve? Does it achieve it? Is it a good thing to achieve what they want? And so that's where these crazy rankings. That's where it comes from, is thinking about each restaurant at its level and what it's able to do. It just would be absurd to have a list of the best restaurants in the city, be only restaurants that the vast majority of New Yorkers could never afford to go to or would have

[B]

no native interest in experiencing, too.

[C]

There's that too. So I think that this list gives every. Everyone can access. You can go to one of the best restaurants in the city. It might be a taco truck, but you could go there. It makes it accessible. And frankly, we have some of the best taco trucks.

[B]

Listen, I mean, you are one of the people in my life who is like, don't come at me with this. New York City doesn't have good Mexican food. You're just one of those people. Don't come at me with that. I think what I love about the list and the way it sort of pre rebukes a response like the one I just read from Amy, folks, is that you understand that the playing field for a lot of people who want to cook food for the public, the playing field's not level. Right. It's a lot easier for people at one end of the spectrum to get a space, open a restaurant, serve people, be incredibly successful than it is for a whole host of other people to do the same. They are in a hole in the wall because the hole is all they could afford to rent, to serve the food. And your list is a democratization event. Right. Part of the destabilization of it is that it is allowing many different people an opportunity to say, hey, this biddy experience that I am trying to offer at my three trucks, or our three trucks is. It's as good as what is going on at John George. And listen, I didn't want to enjoy Jean George. Like, I just thought for sure it couldn't. It couldn't possibly.

[C]

It's pretty great.

[B]

Oh, my God. But so is getting your, like, little Khantomme situation. So, like, do you know what I mean? Like, you're the. If you've got an open mind, a big stomach and a broad palate, there are obvious differences environmentally and maybe from the standpoint of technique in terms of how your meal is delivered to you, but there's technique on both ends.

[C]

There is flavor on both ends, commitment and ambition. I will say that I think that in fact, the restaurant's at the highest end in some ways. The bar is higher. It has to be. If you're paying 300, $400 a head, then you do expect more, and you should expect more. And so people are working hard on every level, and so there's no take away from that. I recognize that working in restaurants. Restaurants are a really difficult business. Always on the verge of. There's always the risk.

[B]

Always on the verge of everything.

[C]

Everything. Right. They're razor thin margins. And so one of the heartwarming things that came out of the list is that there's a restaurant in Chinatown. Hopley.

[B]

Hopley.

[C]

Hopley, right.

[B]

Delicious. Yes. And it's so great.

[C]

And it's been around, I think, for 50 years.

[B]

I mean, that. That lazy Susan, she's working old school

[C]

Chinese and they're velveting the lobster and they've got the razor clams, and they've got that chicken with the.

[B]

Oh, my God, that chicken is so spoiled.

[C]

So. But they really struggled. They almost closed during the pandemic. They've just been teetering on the edge. And a friend of mine said the other day that she went by and they said that there are people in the street waiting for a table. So that's a really big turnaround.

[B]

Yeah, but I'm Just thinking, like to sort of writ large, how are you thinking about what it means to be eating at all in public right now? And how did the experience of really doing this kind of concentrated thinking about excellence paint a picture of what it's like to be eating in this country right now?

[C]

I think one thing that's exciting about food in this country right now is that it's really changed. So we have a lot of passion around it that actually people were not that adventurous about food. Even three decades ago. There's been a sea change in the country. So now we have the point where there are lots of people on social media making quick videos and giving boosts to little places. And I love that. I think there's room for many different ways of talking about food and getting people excited about food. And so that's all very exciting. I think that the thing that I worry about in. In eating out now is I think there's a chainification happening and a big money effication, if that's a thing. You know, where you used to have lots of little restaurants, so independent, really different, interesting, doing things their own way, that maybe there's a kind of push towards sameness.

[B]

I mean, Williamsburg, I mean, just to pick a neighborhood. The chains have come and they are. They are really going ham in parts of Williamsburg.

[C]

It's hard, but even in places. So in Chinatown, there's this sort of. There's been this sort of takeover by Boba shops, where a lot of Boba shops are coming in and displacing older businesses that. So there may be more Boba shops than Chinatown needs. And some of it is, you know, money from outside investors bringing these places in. And then some people have noticed that some of this might be even happening in places like Astoria, Queens, where you'll find a cafe that's sort of Pan Arab. It doesn't seem to be specific to one country. And it's possible that there's Dubai money coming in.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[C]

So it's all interesting.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

So. So big money can be coming from many different places and it can manifest in different ways. And it's interesting, but I hope we can also protect.

[B]

Right, but I mean, I mean, I feel like the like. But that. That. Okay, so that's sort of a. Like a macro trend. But then there are like these actual. I mean, then there's the actual experience of what it's like to be going out in restaurants and the experiences of, you know, the way certain decor now or at some point. And I think it's changed. You know, I think we're sort of post Instagram in restaurants.

[C]

Do you think already?

[B]

I think that a lot of new places have like changed their lighting so

[C]

that, you know, to be anti Instagram.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So everything has a shadow.

[B]

It's a little. It's a little more. It's a little dimmer in a lot of restaurants now.

[C]

Dimness is in right now for sure. I think things are really dark and. And often you'll get a.1. There's a. There's a lamp that's particularly in right now. I can't remember. Oh, that little umbrella. Yes. That you can tap and you can actually adjust it and accidentally blind yourself.

[B]

Yes, yes. And then the servers, Waiters are knocking them on the floor though too.

[C]

Oh, I know.

[B]

Like, servers are definitely like, oops, you know, I just turned around and knocked over one. Knocked over your lamp.

[C]

Sorry about that. Oh, that's. That's an interesting idea. That maybe there could be a resistance to that. I mean, I sort of like that.

[B]

It feels to me like these restaurants are a little bit tired of seeing shitty pictures of their food show up on people's Instagram feeds. Right. Cause it's not like you're sending a professional photographer to take these pictures. This is like, you know, Jen from down the hall, like, what? Like, geez, our pictures aren't good. This is not. These pictures are making you. If you ever looked at like one of the Google Review, like, you know, you look at the. The photos attached to these restaurants on Google and they make you not want to go to the restaurant, even like one of the top places.

[C]

So I wonder though, if there's another side to this, which is obviously when we take photos, first of all, we're not eating the dish at the moment. It comes when it's perfect, when it's at its perfect temperature, but we're also not in the moment. There are times when it's such a relief to not take a photo, to just go to a restaurant and to just eat. And also for the food not necessarily to be the center of attention. It's good.

[B]

That's a good point.

[C]

But why is it now we go out and everything becomes so. This is the other thing. I think there's been a terrible loss of spontaneity. First of all, all, it's impossible to get reservations. It requires. It requires a whole battle plan. And then you approach the restaurant itself, you research. Well, maybe not, because not everybody does this, but I feel like a lot of I'm seeing is, okay, you go to the restaurant. You've done your research. You know which dishes are the ones you're supposed to get. Now, my feeling on this, by the way, is that if a restaurant is open at any hour that it chooses to be open, and anything that's on its menu should be good, I don't think that there should be only certain dishes that you can.

[B]

I mean, I. I totally agree with you that this is the thing you'd even have to say.

[C]

But I think that sometimes I go to restaurants and I feel like I've ordered wrong. Sometimes it is better not to get a main course and just to go get all the preliminaries. And they are the most beautiful because sometimes with the mains, a bite is good and that was enough.

[B]

But I mean, I'm with you that I think everything. Like the whole thing should be. I don't wanna stop eating it, you know, that should be the experience I'm having no matter what I order. Yes, but. Okay, so I'm thinking now, like, before we go, I just kinda wanna ask you, like a really sort of basic question and just ask about your favorite thing that you ate. Oh, a favorite thing that you ate

[C]

during the course of this journey. This journey. I mean, I will say that when I went to Mama Lee. Okay, I'm gonna give you two stories because I just can't really. So Mama Lee makes these lion's head meatballs. And of course they're called lion's head for a reason because they're quite large.

[B]

They're as big as a lion's head.

[C]

Baby lion, maybe, but they're so big. I actually took a photo of them and I keep showing people. Photo. The photo on my phone. I'm like a mom. I'm like, can you see it? Look how big these. These lion's heads are. And I just feel like to sustain a meatball at that size where it's. It's soft but not too soft, it has this beautiful texture. It almost calves like a glacier, if that makes sense. Like when you cut into it.

[B]

See, this is what I'm talking about. Legai. You can write with your mouth too.

[C]

So I just feel like when I taste this, I just think, okay, so this is a. This is a staple Taiwanese dish. Many people have made this. Have they made them this big? I'm not sure I've ever seen it quite this big. And has it ever been so perfect? Texturally it's possible, I'm sure. Yet there is something about it. Everything from the way in which it comes with this Cabbage. And the way in which, like, the juices from the meatballs trickle down into the cabbage. So it's everything. It's flavor and texture. And she's an architect, so that's. And the other story. So Shaunae's house.

[B]

Oh, Shanae, have you been? I have been. And what a delight. A human.

[C]

What a human delight.

[B]

Shauna. Sorry.

[C]

Yes. We have to.

[B]

We should just say Shaunie's house in Staten Island.

[C]

Yes. Soul food.

[B]

Soul food place. I mean, she's doing the classics.

[C]

Yes. And that Mac and cheese is pretty spectacular. But the dish for me, the whole fried fish.

[B]

Oh.

[C]

So it's so airy and light. It's golden armor.

[B]

You can't believe you're eating a fish, honestly.

[C]

And it comes. You know, she sort of stands it up. You know, everything. The head. It's a whole fish, which I love. And I asked her about it, and she double fries it, and then she says. She said, I love me some on it. And, you know, and she says that when she sees it on the plate ready to go out, she just wants to bite the head off.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, listen, Shaunae.

[C]

Shaunae. And she comes out to each table, your meal has not really begun until Shaunae comes out to your table, gives you a hug, and tells you that she loves you, and you feel like she means it.

[B]

I think we should stop.

[C]

I have a surprise for you.

[B]

What?

[C]

I do. I think that we can't really end this without eating something.

[B]

Wait, what?

[E]

Okay, wait.

[B]

Why are the doors opening? Oh, my God. What's happening? I don't like surprises.

[C]

But you like.

[B]

It's a sneak attack.

[C]

But you like.

[B]

What is going on.

[C]

You like dessert.

[B]

Is that why Austin really left? Did Austin leave to bring in food? He's so credible. All right, so what is happening right now?

[C]

Well, I know that you don't like chocolate or are exiled from the world of chocolate. I am banned from chocolate, so. But this is dessert, since you like dessert.

[B]

I do like dessert.

[C]

Have you ever been to Lyce?

[B]

No.

[C]

So there are no bakeries on the list because. So in terms of what is and isn't a restaurant, we did decide it had to be a hot, savory meal.

[B]

Yes. I mean, it can serve dessert, but it can't just be dessert.

[C]

That was what we. I mean, I'm open to.

[B]

I'm open, but I mean, you had to draw a line somewhere.

[C]

Somewhere. So. But if there were. If. If bakeries could be. If a patisserie could be on this list, this one deserves a higher ranking. It is all the way over 44 East 21st Street.

[B]

So that's like.

[C]

Is that flat iron or beyond? So it's in the flatiron.

[B]

That's early flatiron.

[C]

Early flatiron. And the chef is Korean, trained in Paris. So this is all the highest level of French pastry, but with a Korean palate and with Korean ingredients and touches. Would you like to see?

[B]

Yeah, of course.

[C]

Shall we take a look?

[B]

I mean, how about we all take a look and let's see. I don't want to. Oh, Okay. This. This is a little corn.

[C]

It's beautiful.

[B]

It's beautiful.

[C]

It's a corn. It's a corn. So this is a whole thing, of course, in Paris at patisseries, seeing how perfectly you can imitate life in these different shapes. But I'm so curious to hear what you think.

[B]

All right. Ooh. Oh, yeah. Oh, legaia, thank you for pulling a fast one on me.

[C]

Well, thank you for having me.

[B]

Oh, my God. Thank you, legaia.

[C]

And we're still gonna go out to dinner.

[B]

I mean, just, you know, ring my bat phone. I'm Commissioner Gordon, by the way. I'm not Batman.

[C]

Got it.

[B]

All right. Thank you.

[C]

Thank you.

[B]

This is great. Y. This is delicious.

[C]

I am so glad.

[B]

Wait, I'm sorry. Do you guys want some of this? I will seriously sit here and eat. Oh, these MF's got their own. They got their own.

[C]

I gave them the rundown because everything. God bless everything at Lise treats for everybody is great.

[B]

Do you guys. Does everybody. Okay, everybody's getting. Because I'm gonna finish this.

[C]

Fantastic.

[B]

So speak now.

[F]

This message is brought to you by Apple Card. For a limited time, when you get a new Apple card and purchase AirPods Pro 3 at Apple, you can earn back the cost up to 250 daily cash. New AirPods Pro and up to $250 daily cash back. Now that's music to my ears. Subject to credit approval, limitations and spend requirements apply. Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs bank usa, Salt Lake City branch terms and more at Apple Co AirPods. This break is brought to you by Adobe Creative cloud. With over 20 apps, there's always new ways to explore your creativity. Design it, illustrate it, animate it. Bring any idea to life with the ultimate creative toolkit.

[C]

Creative Cloud.

[E]

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[B]

This episode of Cannonball was produced by John White and Janelle Anderson. It was edited by Austin Mitchell. It was engineered by a few theme Shapiro. It was recorded by Matty Masiello, Kyle Grandillo and Samantha Winter. It features original music by Dan Powell and Diane Wong. Our theme music is by Justin Ellington and Bobby Doherty. He took the photo for our show Art. Our audience team is Katie o' Brien and Maria Abdulkoff. Our video team is Felice Leon and Brooke Minters. This episode was filmed by A Daniela Lisarti and Jadzia Erskine. It was edited by Jeremy Rocklin and Amy marino. We're on YouTube. Watch and subscribe. We'll be back next week.

[D]

The day begins at the Chase Sapphire Lounge by the club at Boston Logan Airport. You get the clam chowder in San Diego, it's Tostadas New York Espresso Martini. It's 10:00am why not? It's the quiet before your next flight. The shower that resets your day. The menu that lets you know where you are. This is access to over 1300 airport lounges and every Sapphire Lounge by the club. And one card that gets you in Chase Sapphire Reserve now even more rewarding.

[B]

Learn [e-mail] Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JPMorgan Chase bank and a member FDIC

[H]

subject to credit approval.