‘Popcast’: Jack Harlow Talks Race and Ego

Summary

Podcast Summary: ‘Popcast’: Jack Harlow Talks Race and Ego

Podcast: Cannonball with Wesley Morris (NYT)
Episode: ‘Popcast’: Jack Harlow Talks Race and Ego
Date: April 16, 2026
Guests: Jack Harlow (Artist), John Caramanica (Host), Joe Coscarelli (Host)

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Overview

This episode is a wide-ranging, candid conversation between rapper Jack Harlow and New York Times pop music critics John Caramanica and Joe Coscarelli. The discussion centers on Harlow's new album, Monica, his shifting approach to music and fame, and how issues of race, ego, genre, and personal growth inform his work and public persona. Harlow reflects on the tension between being a white artist in a traditionally Black genre, evolving away from ego-driven braggadocio, and his desire to create music that’s intimate, melodic, and egoless. The episode is filled with thoughtful self-examination, occasional sparring, and plenty of humor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jack Harlow’s Artistic Evolution and the Making of Monica

Timeframe: 04:00 – 25:00

• Harlow describes Monica as a significant departure from his earlier, rap-centric albums, focusing on softer, more melodic, and “egoless” music.
• The album was conceived after he scrapped two years’ worth of uninspiring material post-Jackman.
• He deliberately set strict creative rules: no braggadocio, no cursing, no programmed instruments (except drums), live musicians only, and no traditional rapping—just melody-driven performances.
• The intention was to make something “committed and concise” and avoid “hedging” or trying to please every part of his audience all at once.

“I just wanted to do something a little more egoless. …As I'm getting older, I'm having more trouble reconciling being braggadocious on record. And it's a pillar of rap... But, how can I make something that's true to me and lean away from that?” — Jack Harlow (05:08)

• Harlow’s goal for the record: “What do I want to hear? Not a combination of what do I want to hear and what else can I accomplish… just solely, what do I want to hear?” (05:24)

Notable Moment

• Harlow credits a conversation with musician Elmine about Stevie Wonder’s music for inspiring him to minimize ego in his own work, positing that ego can make music age poorly. (23:51)

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2. Navigating Pop Stardom and Personal Identity

Timeframe: 09:00 – 14:35

• As his singles “First Class” and “Lovin On Me” became massive pop hits, Harlow found himself destabilized by the demands and expectations of stardom.
• He reflects on the tension between being an accessible pop star and a thoughtful, reflective artist.
• The conversation explores the patience required to be understood over time, referencing careers like Tyler, the Creator, Drake, and Kendrick Lamar as examples of artists whose arcs have only become clear in retrospect.

“Instead of making this all-encompassing project where people realize I'm everything... I’ve come to terms with waiting to be understood in fragments over time.” — Jack Harlow (10:41)

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3. Ego, Love and Songwriting

Timeframe: 12:15 – 14:35, 50:00 – 55:00

• Harlow and the hosts analyze how ego manifests even in attempts to make “egoless” music, especially in romantic relationships.
• All My Friends (feat. Robert Glasper) is highlighted as the album’s thesis song, capturing a sense of “it’s all good” detachment in relationships.
• Harlow admits ego is ever-present and cannot be destroyed, especially in a competitive field like hip-hop.

“Ego cannot be destroyed. …I’m not necessarily interested in doing away with it. I don’t know if that’s actually possible. I think it’s something we live with and approach in different ways.” — Jack Harlow (13:32)

• In the closing track, Harlow avoids “ending on bad terms,” instead longing to “share a warm feeling... for the rest of our lives... I hate ending on bad terms.” (61:10)

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4. Race, Genre, and Artistic Privilege

Timeframe: 15:57 – 20:10

• Discussion pivots directly into race—Harlow's position as a white rapper operating in genres with historical and cultural Black roots.
• The hosts ask: Are white rappers afforded more freedom to genre-hop than Black rappers?
• Harlow acknowledges both the privileges and the pressures of his position and explains that rather than retreating to traditionally white genres like country or rock, he consciously chose to “go deeper into Black music, deeper into Blackness.”

“I love Black music… I’m hyper aware of the politics of today, that safer landing spot that a lot of my white contemporaries have found... It appealed to me to do something that I felt like, at a time when plenty of people [were] expecting me to… take a route others were, to take the route that… might not be expected but is also the one I genuinely want to take.” — Jack Harlow (19:01)

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5. Process, Touchstones, and Visual Identity

Timeframe: 20:20 – 38:00

• Sessions for Monica took place at Electric Lady Studios, a legendary New York space associated with Black music pioneers like D’Angelo and Erykah Badu.
• He worked alongside younger producer Axel Arvid to create a band-based, live sound.
• Harlow cites influences like Slum Village (for hip-hop/electronic/jazz blend), Sade (for “Sunday morning” passivity), and an atmospheric, neutral-toned visual aesthetic—a deliberate choice to “decorate” the music.
• He shares the story behind his frequent use of Kangol hats, tying it to signaling a connection to a certain era/mood in hip-hop history.

“It ain’t a cowboy hat. …There’s something playful about it. This album’s kind of serious. I like the idea of showing I’m not trying to present myself as some distinguished professor. …I’m 27, I’m excited... I think it’s fun to put things on that are playful and cause a reaction for people.” — Jack Harlow (39:02)

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6. New York, Restlessness, and Obsessive Self-Enhancement

Timeframe: 39:39 – 48:59

• Harlow recently moved from Kentucky to New York for stimulation, inspiration, and “a jolt” after feeling the need for growth.
• He describes his lifestyle as “obsessive self-enhancement,” always seeking out new experiences, reading, dining, and especially going to independent theaters to watch films.
• He’s made his Letterboxd film diary public, inviting fans into a new side of his personality.

“I needed a jolt. …The last few years, I’ve gained a new thirst for knowledge and learning. I can feel the fact that I missed out on college. …New York makes you feel small, and I’m okay with feeling small more than I was years ago.” — Jack Harlow (41:00, 54:00)

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7. Letting Go of Bluster and Embracing Individuality

Timeframe: 49:00 – 57:13

• Harlow talks about how the "bluster" and self-hype that powered his early career is less accessible, and less vital to him now.
• By choosing not to chase maximum fame or crowd-pleasing hits, he’s able to focus on artistry and “carving out my own island.”
• He balances the drive for mass appeal with a commitment to projects that might be less commercial but truer to himself.

“I thought I could do both [entertainer and artist], but I realized... not everybody can do both at the same moment… I’m focusing on the artistry.” — Jack Harlow (56:00)

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8. Therapy, Dating, and Personal Growth

Timeframe: 57:13 – 63:06

• Harlow is no longer in regular therapy but stays highly self-reflective.
• On dating, he demurs but says he doesn’t feel like he’s “in the wrong place,” remaining noncommittal about settling down.
• The album’s narrative ends with the theme of unfinished romance (“I’ll call you when my life slows down”).

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9. Lightning Round: Playful Self-Reflection

Timeframe: 63:06 – End

• The episode closes with a quickfire “card draw” Q&A covering immaturity, social media, gambling, and what makes Harlow laugh.
• He admits to being a “control freak,” having a “rigidity” in his personality, and having few phone numbers memorized outside family.
• Harlow prefers not to spend excessive time on anyone’s social page and communicates directly with journalists, reflecting his value for minimal middlemen.
• On gambling: “Not a thrill of mine... Control freak, perhaps.” (69:11)

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Notable Quotes

| Speaker | Quote | Timestamp | |---------------------- |-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|-------------| | Jack Harlow | “Ego cannot be destroyed. …It’s something we live with and we approach in different ways.” | 13:32 | | Jack Harlow | “I love Black music… I’m hyper aware of the politics of today... I want to be understood.” | 19:01 | | Jack Harlow | “Obsessive self-enhancement… I want to be enriched. So I think that’s what the move is.” | 43:00 | | Jack Harlow | “I’m much more averse to mimicry… I’m looking to carve out my own island.” | 55:07 | | Jack Harlow | “New York makes you feel small, and I’m okay with feeling small more than I was maybe years ago.” | 54:00 | | Jack Harlow | “I think I just became interested in saying, okay, what if I’m a little less self-indulgent?” | 24:33 | | John Caramanica | “You were on a very Drake path for a while... Not just as a friend, but as a kind of lodestar.” | 54:40 |

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Memorable/Light Moments

• Lightning round on immaturity: Harlow admits: “Still a control freak... I have a rigidity I can’t shake, that feels a little immature sometimes.” (64:15)
• On snacks: Harlow rates British chocolate orange slices an “8,” after not having candy for 18 months: “That just tastes so good.” (73:51)
• Playful sparring over hair, hats, style, and whether he’s “losing his swag.” (03:23, 40:11)

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Segment Timestamps

• [04:00 – 06:29] — The conception of Monica: breaking creative stasis, new rules
• [09:16 – 11:59] — Pop hits, the destabilization of fame
• [12:32 – 14:35] — Ego in romance, “All My Friends”
• [15:57 – 20:10] — Race, privilege, genre-hopping as a white rapper
• [20:20 – 38:04] — Creating at Electric Lady, influences, visual identity
• [39:39 – 48:59] — Moving to NYC, creativity, “obsessive self-enhancement”
• [49:00 – 57:13] — Letting go of bluster; embracing artistic integrity
• [57:13 – 63:06] — Therapy, dating, album themes
• [63:06 – 74:35] — Lightning round, banter, snack tasting

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Summary & Takeaways

Jack Harlow uses Monica as a vehicle for personal and artistic reinvention, leaning into R&B textures and egoless songwriting while wrestling openly with the privileges and pitfalls of being a white rapper. The conversation is earnest and self-aware, exploring the contradictions of fame, masculinity, and authenticity. Harlow’s willingness to embrace change, challenge his own ego, and focus on artistry over celebrity marks a mature turn in his career.

For those interested in how pop stars negotiate identity, genre, and growth in real time—amid humor, honesty, and industry insight—this episode is a rich listen.

Transcript

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[Wesley Morris]

Hey everybody, it's Wesley Morris, and we here on the Cannonball team are taking a break. And in lieu of giving you a fresh Cannonball, I'd just like to share an episode of popcast, one of our sister shows here at the New York Times, hosted by my pals John Caramonica and Joe Coscarelli, who talked to Jack Harlow, the rapper who's now doing a little more singing in his work. The whole conversation is fascinating because you were listening to an artist sort of talk very unguardedly about about his project and his interests as a white man in a sort of traditionally black form. You may have seen a section of this conversation make its way around the Internet in which Jack Harlow is talking about like the blackness of what he's trying to do, like in wanting to be blacker. I was grateful to hear things get confirmed. It raised a lot of questions for me, and maybe it'll raise some questions for you. But here it is Jack Harlow talking to John Caramonica and Joe Coscarelli on popcast.

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[Jack Harlow]

You're losing your swag.

[John Caramonica]

I did not say that.

[Jack Harlow]

You didn't have to.

[John Caramonica]

Welcome to the New York Times Podcast your want to do more than just a feature of weekly Cultural Review with John Caramonica and the Critic.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I'm Joe Coscarelli and I'm the reporter.

[Jack Harlow]

I'm Jack Harlow and I'm on podcast.

[Joe Coscarelli]

There you go. You nailed it. You're good at this.

[Jack Harlow]

Thanks.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Jack Harlow is a rapper and more from Louisville, Kentucky. In 2020, after moving to Atlanta, he broke out with what's Poppin huge hit on TikTok during the pandemic Classic remix with Lil Wayne. You know his subsequent hits, number one smashes, first class sampling Fergie's glamorous lovin on me from 20 young J A

[Jack Harlow]

C K A K A Rico like Suave Young Enrique.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Jack Harlow, really happy to have you here.

[Jack Harlow]

Happy to be here.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I've been anticipating this Monica, your fourth proper studio album out now. Like the moment now. Right now you're watching this. That means Monica is out. A huge departure from the playfully intricate rap that most people know you for.

[John Caramonica]

I will say so you played me the record a couple weeks ago and I was immediately struck. And I'll let you talk through kind of the ways in which it's different. But there are people who I think retreat from a version of themselves out of kind of fear. And then there are people who alter a version of themselves with a direction. And I think what I was very struck by in the direction of this record is how kind of like end goal focus it felt. It didn't feel like running from something. It felt like heading competently to something.

[Jack Harlow]

Thank you.

[John Caramonica]

Tell the people if they haven't heard it yet, what you're running to, but also why this and why now?

[Jack Harlow]

I think I'd been recording a project for two years after Jackman, and it wasn't exciting me. I didn't feel like I was working on something that would surprise people. And I took a few weeks off because I was getting to the point where I was dreading going to the studio. I mean, really not a great space to be in, obviously. And I thought about, what do I actually want to do? What would intrigue me? And I think it just struck me that I would want to do something a little more egoless. I think as I'm getting older, I'm having more trouble reconciling being braggadocious on record. And it's a pillar of rap. It's part of the reason I love rap music is the braggadocio of it. But I think I spent some time thinking about how can I make something that's true to me and lean away from that? So. And then, of course, just sonically, what I was listening to, I love softer, more melodic stuff. So more than anything, I think I made this out of what do I want to hear more than ever. Not a combination of what do I want to hear and what else can I accomplish within what I want to hear? Just solely what do I want to hear? So we had a lot of rules, which I could tell you about when we were making it, but I just. I think it just felt good to make something committed and concise and not. I didn't want to hedge. So, yeah, there's a lot that went into it, but it's a good place to start.

[John Caramonica]

The things that you had been making leading up to that epiphany, where do you think they were landing? What's on the cutting room floor?

[Jack Harlow]

Great question. It had both. It had DNA from before Jackman and it also had, like, post Jackman focus and substance and care with the writing. But I think sonically, more than anything, it didn't feel like, oh, he's doing that. It felt like, cool. This is patented.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It's Jack Harlow. It sounded like Jack Harlow.

[Jack Harlow]

Exactly. And, you know, I think you get to a point where as much as you're trying to find your voice, you're also hoping to escape yourself throughout your career.

[Joe Coscarelli]

So it's interesting that Jackman is the fulcrum there, the sort of pivot point, because that was an album, to me, that played as, like, a little bit of a retreat from how famous you'd gotten. It felt like a mixtape, right?

[Jack Harlow]

Grounding, being likable. I'm trying to be unbreakable. I just realized that this whole game is takeable. If I want it and I do

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yes, I want it it was a very you home, you know, talking about what it had been like to see the world after becoming this huge star, you know, still in your 20s. So this was happening for you really fast. Jackman felt like a return to that, but didn't have a smash on it. Commercial project. You weren't really promoting it as such. But then right after that, a couple months later, you dropped this single, Loving on Me. That becomes as big as First Class.

[Jack Harlow]

I'm vanilla, baby I'll choke you But I ain't no killer, baby she 28 telling me I'm still a baby I get love in Detroit like skill a baby.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Did you feel a push and pull in that moment of like, am I pop star Jack Harlo or am I quiet, reflective artist Jack Harlow?

[Jack Harlow]

I think I've always felt room to be both at different times. But I think I've become less interested in showing off my versatility and showing off all the ways I can shapeshift, at least on the same project, and more interested in nailing something singular and then potentially pivoting at the next point. But Jackman was definitely me sort of feeling like I've been driving this bus and I lost control of it a little bit, and I needed to get it back on the ground. And that was at the time what my instinct told me to do is, like, let me get back down to the essence of things. And you know why I love this? It was like, the fundamentals and. But I try not to make any decisions about what my career path is going to be because as it's continued to develop, it surprises me with twists and turns. And I think it's best to stay open because, you know, ideally, you want a unique arc, an arc that is all your own. So I don't rule out anything for the future. Even after this project. No telling what I'll be on. But this is what's true to me at the moment.

[John Caramonica]

I'm curious. With First Class and then Lovin On Me, you have, I would say, hits that threatened and it sounded like maybe did destabilize you a little bit. They're so big, and there are expectations that come with having hits of that scale. And I wonder if you can talk about the lived experience of maybe going through that and what are the obligations that come with that scale of pop success that were novel to you, unexpected, and ultimately maybe made the car harder to steer.

[Jack Harlow]

Absolutely. I think things just got so big that maybe there was some nuance that I Originally felt like I could get across it. I didn't feel like I was getting across in the same way. And so grounding it and, you know, trimming a lot of the fat off made me feel like, okay, well, maybe I don't need to get everything about myself across at once, but maybe piece by piece I can get one nuance at a time across to people. I think even as I'm speaking right now, I'm realizing maybe that's been what the last few years have been to me. Instead of saying, I'm going to make this all encompassing project where people realize that I'm everything, instead it's like I'm okay with, I've come to terms with waiting to be understood. In a lot of ways I feel understood, but I think part of the reason people express themselves and become artists is this thirst to become understood and to communicate with the rest of the world and tell the world who you are. And so I'm at peace with being understood in fragments over time. And, you know, I've taken note of some of the artists that came out in the early 2000 and tens that it feels like the full breadth of who they are is being totally understood now and celebrated now. I think of Tyler, the creator, I think of Drake, I think of Kendrick. And these guys almost, over time have earned their opportunity to make what they're making now through 10 years of grinding and adding little pieces to the arc. So I just feel like I'm constructing an arc and I'm more and more patient about it.

[John Caramonica]

Like, were you surprised at how much time was asked of you when you have a big hit? How many obligations, how many opportunities, depending how you look at it.

[Jack Harlow]

Because I always wanted hits. I wanted hits when, before I had them even more than I do now, I think. I mean, I love the idea of having a song that impacts everyone still, but I think even, you know, people talk about my mixtape era and how it was more this and more that. That whole time I was very interested in making big songs. I love big songs. I love songs that are accessible. And even to this day, as I make stuff that maybe feels more niche to people or more specific, accessibility is subconscious for me. I enjoy making accessible things. I don't like making things that don't invite people to whatever party I'm throwing.

[Joe Coscarelli]

We've been talking about what the album sounds like, but we haven't really talked about what it's about. And I do think that's where there's still some Jack Harlow in there, which is a specific Side of you. Maybe not the puffed chest on the top rapper side, but the I'm a gentleman. I'm a lover boy. I'm going to tell you, I might

[John Caramonica]

have made a mistake or two.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Right? Like, you know, this is a. This is an album about love and lust, regret.

[John Caramonica]

Would you like to apologize to the camera?

[Jack Harlow]

Maybe in a few.

[Joe Coscarelli]

One of the songs, I think that feels like the thesis statement of the album to me is All My Friends with Robert Glasper that we mentioned starts with you saying, All My Friends say I tend to come on too strong.

[Jack Harlow]

All of my friends tell me I tend to come on way too strong, way too fast and way too calm. You're definitely right about all of My Friends being a good representation. I'd say all these songs are just littered with different sentiments of hey, it's all good. You know what I mean? You know what I'm saying?

[John Caramonica]

That is one kind of ego.

[Jack Harlow]

I will say, tell me more. You might be right. I'd like to know what you mean.

[John Caramonica]

I think that if you feel that you are in the driver's seat in your romantic and emotional life, it's easy and potentially ego driven to say to one or potentially two or potentially more than two people, don't worry about it. Good, we're good, everything's good. That's an ego. That's a position of ego.

[Jack Harlow]

That's interesting. I think you're right. I think ego cannot be destroyed. I'm not necessarily interested in doing away with it. I don't know if that's actually possible. I think it's something we live with and we approach in different ways.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Especially in your job.

[Jack Harlow]

Yeah, I think so. And I think it's all about how you choose to react to what your ego's telling you. And so you're right. I'm reconciling the power that comes into some of these relationship dynamics. But I think sometimes the best you can do is say, hey, this is a group decision. That's what it's all good. That's what it's all good means to me. You're starting to speak for yourself. You've been behind this microphone for a few months. You got the power of your own.

[John Caramonica]

We're just two grownups talking about life. That's all we're doing. We're talking about life.

[Jack Harlow]

And is that is. Of course you can find ego in anything. But does that sound like the most ego driven statement to you? To say, hey, let's talk about this? I'm open minded. Point is, I'm not attached to an outcome. And I think that's what the album is about.

[John Caramonica]

But also the very privilege of not being attached to an outcome that.

[Jack Harlow]

Well, I didn't say I'm doing away with my privilege.

[John Caramonica]

No, no, no.

[Jack Harlow]

Of course.

[John Caramonica]

No, we're gonna get. But that in and of itself is a privilege. To be able to be like, I'm not attached. To be the person who's beyond attachment, who can let things.

[Jack Harlow]

But that ain't even in my top 20 privileges.

[John Caramonica]

Winter or summer, Who did you choose?

[Jack Harlow]

Ego certainly cannot be escaped.

[John Caramonica]

Let the record reflect.

[Jack Harlow]

All right.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I mean, let's talk about race.

[John Caramonica]

Wait. Winter, summer. We're gonna get back.

[Joe Coscarelli]

We're gonna get back to which one

[Jack Harlow]

you want to do. Race or Winter and summer?

[John Caramonica]

No, no. Winter, summer. Did anyone win?

[Joe Coscarelli]

It wasn't about winning.

[Jack Harlow]

I think it was. It was for them.

[Joe Coscarelli]

So they were attached to an outcome.

[Jack Harlow]

This is a good song, ain't it?

[John Caramonica]

Yeah, it's a great song.

[Joe Coscarelli]

No, You've been watching a lot of movies that share themes with that song. We're gonna talk about the last, right?

[Jack Harlow]

You are very observant. You know the winner. I feel like winner. Winner might have won.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Ooh, yeah. It is. It is winter. It is winter.

[Jack Harlow]

It is.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Can't talk to Jack Harlow without talking about race.

[Jack Harlow]

I would hope not.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I've had a version of this conversation with Post Malone, Jelly Roll, mgk, Young,

[Jack Harlow]

Lean, From Me, loving hip hop.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Eminem talked about it with Eminem.

[Jack Harlow]

Sure.

[Joe Coscarelli]

White rappers are afforded more freedom to change their genre at will. True or false?

[Jack Harlow]

I might have to think about that. What do you think?

[Joe Coscarelli]

I think. Yeah, definitely. I think there is something about being a white rapper that first puts the chip on your shoulder. And I think that that's why a lot of the people I just mentioned, maybe Post Malone especially aside, but yourself included, rapping your ass off is really important at the beginning. Like bars, like proving yourself right. You could hear that in your early music.

[Jack Harlow]

Absolutely. This kush here in the Gashes state I can't hit it if I do I might pass away these boys fake Please quit with the masquerade hey, should I hear what the past is saying?

[Joe Coscarelli]

And then you prove yourself. You break in, you're supported by all kinds of people. You've always had a diverse friend group. You grew up in a diverse place. You have a diverse team. You have a diverse fan base. You become accepted. And then you have. We're talking about privilege. You have the ability to say, I wrapped my ass off. I'm not Going to do that anymore, at least for now. And radio programmers, award shows, press like people take you seriously if you do that. If a black rapper wants to do something completely sonically adventurous, it can often be treated as a whim or something to be ignored or a joke. That's my personal feeling.

[John Caramonica]

You're framing it through the lens of intent. And I also think of it often through the lens of reception and landing places. Country music, for example, has become a safe landing place for former white rappers. Rock music has become a safe landing place. These are sort of pre existing industry structures that welcome a famous person who got famous. I see the smile. It's great to see. I think I'd like to hear your answer to Joe's question, but also then talk about what I feel is like the radical twist of what you have chosen.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I was hoping that he would say that. Sorry, but you're giving him the answer, the good answer.

[John Caramonica]

It's the right answer, but sorry, I'll shut up now.

[Joe Coscarelli]

What John's saying is you didn't.

[Jack Harlow]

What is your question?

[Joe Coscarelli]

You didn't retreat. Well, I'll piggyback off what John's saying. John's saying you didn't retreat into a whiter genre. In fact, you arguably went deeper into black music, deeper into blackness. So was that conscious? Was that a little twist on the typical move that white rappers make, which is to retreat back into traditionally white sounds?

[Jack Harlow]

It certainly made what I already wanted to do even more appealing. Absolutely.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Because you like pushing that boundary, that line.

[Jack Harlow]

I think I love black music. I love the sound of black music. Who among us? Yeah, I love the sound of black music. And of course, I'm hyper aware of the politics of today, that safer landing spot that a lot of my white contemporaries have found. And of course, it appealed to me to do something that I felt like at a time when there's plenty of people expecting me to take some of the routes y' all are taking. To take the route that not only might not be expected, but is also the one I genuinely want to take. So all the stars aligned in that way for me. To be honest, I'm not going to pretend like what you're talking about. I was like, huh? I guess you're right that there were multiple things appealing about this route. But I also came to the decision, I'm proud to say, off of what feels good in my ear. I love R and B music. I love the sound of soft, intimate, melodic music. So I want to be understood. I want to write melodies that invite people to sing Along.

[Joe Coscarelli]

So, yeah, I don't think this is an anti commercial album. It's just different than a Jack Harlow album that you might expect. If you know the Jack Harlow from TikTok Songs, for instance, y' all wasn't

[Jack Harlow]

tuned in back then. My swag day. Keep jacking. I ain't doing no verse. Quit asking.

[Joe Coscarelli]

But I'm interested in what you're saying about going all in on it. Because I think you're right that most artists, if they wanted to try something new, they might sprinkle it on an album, right? You might have one song that's an outlier, that's sort of like trial balloon to say, maybe I could sound like this. And then you see if the fans take to it, and if they do, maybe there's two songs on the next album that sound a little bit like that. That's not what you did here. You made nine hand played quiet, intimate Sunday morning R and B songs. That's how I hear it. You know, like you recorded it all

[John Caramonica]

at the Turtleneck, right?

[Joe Coscarelli]

You recorded it all at Electric Lady. Seems like you sort of caught some ghosts in there. You know, neo soul came out in Electric Lady. Questlove recorded a lot of Electric Lady. You know, Diangelo recorded Electric Lady, Erykah Badu recorded Electric Lady. Were these some of the north stars that you were following down the road toward this particular sound?

[Jack Harlow]

Yeah, I think it was serendipitous that we were at Electric lady. And then I moved to New York. Even when I was trying to figure out the project before this one that got scrapped, I was at Electric lady. And I loved that studio. And it just so happened that, you know, all these variables came together and it makes this beautiful sense. But I've always loved that music. You know what I mean? I've always loved d'. Angelo. I've always loved Erica. I've always loved the intimacy and plush quality of that music. And if you look at my discography, there's little hints of this. There's. There's Rhodes piano playing on First Class. Like there's songs throughout that are just. I really don't like erratic music. I don't like loud music. I like soft music, smooth. I like smooth music. I like music that, you know, I spend a lot of time sitting in silence. I enjoy silence. So when I play music, I don't want to depart from silence. I don't like going to the club just because of the volume.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Rage rap Jack project coming anytime soon?

[Jack Harlow]

Well, you never know. I'm only speaking for who I am today.

[John Caramonica]

When we spoke in 2022, you said something interesting because we were talking about other Louisville musicians, we were talking about Bryson and estg. And you were like, there's something kind of silken that unites the three of you. And I think that that always was the case. I listen to Bryce and I listen to you, and I can hear the threads. Specifically, when we had this kind of preliminary chat, you were telling me a little bit about the sessions and kind of like how things arrived in the sessions. And I wonder if you could talk about the decluttering process that led to the space that allowed this to emerge.

[Jack Harlow]

As soon as the project started, I had brought Axel Arvid, 24 year old from Norway, did the Pink Panthers album. Been a friend of mine for a couple years now. My little brother introduced me to him, my boy, Two for One, introduced me to him, et cetera, et cetera. And I realized I wanted to do something like Monica, what I've done. And I called him up and I was like, why don't you come to New York? Because I know he loves R and B and we share a lot of the same taste. And I said, I want to do something melodic and ideally egoless. Writing wise, I'd like to scale that mountain. And he was totally into it. And I think the first few weeks were us touring with what the mood was gonna be. And I think it started a lot sunnier and maybe a little more maximalist, which is more his taste. And slowly it got simpler and moodier.

[John Caramonica]

And what were the rules? You said there were rules. What were the rules?

[Jack Harlow]

No braggadocio in the writing.

[John Caramonica]

So when you say egoless, that's what you mean? You mean no bragging specifically in the writing.

[Jack Harlow]

I had a combo last year with Elmine, and we were just. We were in the studio, we were just playing each other music, our music, music we liked. And we just were talking. It was our first time meeting and we talked. He was talking to me about, you know, what makes Stevie Wonder's music age so well is it's all infused with love. All he's talking about is love. He's never talking about him and how great he is, which is not a groundbreaking realization. But he helped me understand that ego can sometimes make music age poorly. Obviously, there's exceptions. There's plenty of rap songs where people are talking shit that are aging like

[Joe Coscarelli]

Fine Wine or My Way, My Way. There's a song about braggadocio that aged pretty well.

[Jack Harlow]

For sure. There's obviously exceptions. But I think for me, I Just became interested in saying, okay, what if I'm a little less self indulgent? Especially because I know that's closer, a little closer to the person I like to be. You know, like you were talking about at the beginning. As you run into someone, it's nice to know that your art, it doesn't feel like that much of a departure. And I go by my government name. I mean, my entire career path has me been trying to get closer and closer to capturing who I actually am.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It's not a Persona anymore.

[Jack Harlow]

I'd like to think it isn't. I'd like to think it never was. But ideally, you just get more and more high definition, clarity. And of course, there's a part of you that then starts to envy the guys that are playing a character. And maybe my next project will be me dipping into an alter ego. I don't know. There's not a right way. But at this point, I wanted to do something true to me. So the ego thing was huge. No cursing. Not for any purity reasons.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Zero curse words.

[Jack Harlow]

Zero curse words. Just to challenge the writing, just so. There was no crutches, no digital instruments, except drums. Only the drums could be programmed. Everything else had to be live. So we had played. We had a lot of musicians in the studio.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Robert Glasper's on this album.

[Jack Harlow]

Robert Glasper's on here, Corey Henry's on here. Jermaine, Paul, Franklin Rankin, they're on every song. My little brother Clay Harlow's on three songs. Hollywood Cole, Angel Lopez.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It's just Raven Linnae is singing.

[Jack Harlow]

Raven Linnae's singing on there. Mustafa's singing on there. Omar Apollo. But we had this band approach. Like, I would be in the control room and all the musicians and producers, drummers would be in the live room. And then no rapping was probably the last, you know, which.

[Joe Coscarelli]

John and I have been going back and forth about this.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Yeah.

[John Caramonica]

And I think even when we first had our conversation, because.

[Jack Harlow]

No, no out and out rapping.

[John Caramonica]

Right.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I say there's no rap on this album. I think you're singing and I. I

[John Caramonica]

think that there is melodic rapping on this album.

[Jack Harlow]

Right. And as long as it was melodic. Yeah, yeah. Everything had to have melody.

[John Caramonica]

Sure.

[Jack Harlow]

I guess the best way to put it. But in shorthand, we were saying no rapping. Glad we got ocean in between us. Otherwise emotion we keep creeping up don't know how to cope When I think about you.

[Narrator/Announcer]

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[John Caramonica]

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[John Caramonica]

When you talk about the writing, like, let's put the ego question aside. One thing that I was very struck by in finally looking at the lyric sheet, like after listening to the record a couple times, then looking at the lyric sheet, how spare. Obviously some of the bars are. They're not bars in the classic sense. But I actually went back last night and I was listening to the killer remix verse and I'm listening to older Jackson free radio freestyles, the sway freestyle and stuff like that. I'm like, I know that guy's in there, that guy. You could still do that. But lyrical miracle, yeah, but I wonder the restraint in the writing here, is that a state of mind? Is that a process of editing and deleting and editing and deleting? How do you actually arrive at something that's so terse compared to some of your most ornate rhyming and rapping?

[Jack Harlow]

I think one of the biggest differences is historically I find myself starting with what I want to say when I walk through my day. I'll come up with first lines, write them in my notes, and a lot of my songs Will kick off with that first line. And I have a list of first lines. A Beatle play. And I'll whisper each line to myself and one of them clicks right into place. Point being, I often start with the content of what I want to say rather than the melody or how I'm saying it or what the pocket is. I find the pocket after. It's easier for me to find pockets.

[Joe Coscarelli]

A lot of people go in the other direction.

[Jack Harlow]

I would say so. Especially in this modern era, I think, because punch in era for sure, and it's more feeling driven. I got back to the feeling driven style on this album. I started with melodies. There's a few songs that I had an idea for a concept for. But in general, I'm following the melody that felt good. And so I think that naturally created a lot of space.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And that probably came out of the melodics and the harmonics of the live band setup.

[Jack Harlow]

Absolutely.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Where you're hearing different pockets as opposed to a four bar, eight bar loop.

[Jack Harlow]

But it also comes from a different intention. You know, I didn't make this album to say, I'm gonna let these people know what I feel and what I think of myself and what I think of the world. That wasn't the goal, which is often the goal, making rap music. For me. It's like I'm gonna get my point of view across and put a lot of high end on my vocal and

[Joe Coscarelli]

turn it up detailed and you're right

[Jack Harlow]

in people's ears and make sure every syllable is audible. This time it was much more. I'm just another instrument in the ensemble. Yeah. And that goes back to the ego list. Qualities like, of course I'd love for people to hear what I'm saying. And if they don't notice what I said to the fourth listen, that's fine. I just want it to be pleasant. I wanted to add something to my discography that could be enjoyed passively. I don't feel like I've accomplished that yet.

[Joe Coscarelli]

So you're okay with this playing in a coffee shop?

[Jack Harlow]

I would hope it does. Yeah. I would love that. I would love that. I just want it to be endlessly enjoyable. I mean, when we were mixing. This is the lowest.

[John Caramonica]

I'm lower in the mix.

[Jack Harlow]

Way lower in the mix. This is the lowest I've ever let myself be. I wanted to be more impressionist. Instead of a high def photograph of Check Jack Out.

[John Caramonica]

How do you think of yourself as a singer versus as a rapper? Are you as good a singer as you are a rapper?

[Jack Harlow]

No, I Still think of myself as a rapper. Like, I still would prefer for people, you know, if they only get one term to introduce me. I like being a rapper.

[John Caramonica]

That's. Even now, after this rapper, even after

[Jack Harlow]

making something melodic, I would love for people to refer to me as a rapper first.

[John Caramonica]

Okay.

[Jack Harlow]

And I think I'm limited as a singer. I think part of what, you know, made me. Part of my approach to making something melodic was let me see where in my register and what notes I can hit sweetly. And let's lean into those because, you know, you hear these beats and they present a key, and I play around on the mic and I finally land somewhere that sounds suitable to me, and I play in that space. I mean, but you listen to the album, like, some of the biggest feedback I've gotten is constructive criticism, I would say is, you know, maybe. Maybe you could put a little more power behind there.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Maybe you could sort of one.

[Jack Harlow]

Yeah, there's. There's a little monotony to it, but I think. I think.

[John Caramonica]

Do you feel like you're singing from your chest or you feel like you're singing more from up?

[Jack Harlow]

It definitely ain't down here.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Do you have a vocal coach? No, never did.

[Jack Harlow]

I've. I've met with vocal coaches throughout my career, for sure. Performance control for this album. The intent of this album wasn't to prove to people I could sing.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It was to be raw.

[Jack Harlow]

It was to. It wasn't even that. It was to make music that sounded really good to me the best I could, and find the spots of my voice that are sweet, and that's where I want to land.

[Joe Coscarelli]

There's a video out there of you singing with the Louisville Orchestra. You did Fly me to the moon, I believe.

[Jack Harlow]

Awesome.

[Joe Coscarelli]

A sort of little known clip. We're surprised this didn't go viral.

[Jack Harlow]

I remember doing that.

[John Caramonica]

Was that you tapping into?

[Joe Coscarelli]

Was that a light bulb moment where you're like, oh, it feels good up here? I'm a little crooner.

[Jack Harlow]

I don't know if it was a light bulb moment, but it felt good. It felt good to do something unexpected. I think what I want from artists are surprises. And all you can do as artists is put yourself in the shoes of the listener. And you only really have access to one listener yourself. So I just pretend I'm the listener. I just like surprises. But I don't think that was the moment I realized, oh, I'd like to do something a lot. I think my whole career, I've thought eventually it'd be nice to focus on Melody for a bit.

[John Caramonica]

Can you talk a little bit about some of the touchstones as the. You're in. You're an electric lady. The band is vamping. You're sort of like identifying a mood and a tone. But then I listen to this record, I think about 1998, 1999, maybe like a tiny touch in 1991. We talked about Slum Village a little bit Duele Bilal. Like, I wonder if you could talk about what this was surfacing for you, because I imagine all of that stuff is in you somewhere from growing up and listening to it. And then this presents an opportunity to kind of like, allow its bubble. But tell me a little bit about what are those touchstones in your mind?

[Jack Harlow]

Absolutely. I mean, you already said it, but Slum Village is a huge. I think not only sonically, but aesthetically, because I'm very interested in this still feeling hip hop, whether we're talking about how it looks or how it feels. If you notice, all the. Most of the drums are programmed drums that feel like hip hop drums. You know, all the producers were begging me to rap, to be honest. They were making these beats and they're like, I just put a 16 on this one. I'm like, no, I'm not putting. I'm not rapping on this. So I think what Slum represents, I was very inspired by, I think, Sade, you know, just the passive quality of

[Joe Coscarelli]

her music, the way it's Sunday morning music. Yeah, to me, that's.

[Jack Harlow]

It's so easy to enjoy at any moment. And I think I was inspired by the idea of making a project that you listen to, Love Deluxe. You listen to Lovers rock top to bottom. And it's just. There's not a song on there that you're like, ah, God, let me turn that down. I always said, no, no, no, no, she doesn't hedge. And I just wanted to make something that doesn't hedge. I didn't want to have one rap like, imagine if Loving On Me was on Jack, man. You know what I mean? It's like, we don't have to put anything on here to achieve something. Because I can drop that three months later if I want by a substitute, which is.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You already did.

[Jack Harlow]

Let's keep the project sacred. Let's let the project be what the project is. But those are some of the touch points, for sure.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You also have a lot of visual touch points which you mentioned, which you alluded to neutral tones. You and your team sent over a little mood board for us. It was Pac and James Baldwin in A Shearling Lehane classic film. Talk us through the visual identity of this album because it feels important to you. You don't have the Kangal on right now, but you mentioned the hat.

[Jack Harlow]

You know, it all started with the music and whatever the music sounded like. I just wanted to decorate around it appropriately. Even the COVID art, which is not much of a conceptual statement.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Sure.

[Jack Harlow]

But it has an atmospheric, passive quality that I just want to work in tandem with the music. And I'd say the same thing about the clothes. And, of course, you know, there's certain things that point to a time and era, but, you know, the Kango is a symbol of something, I think, for sure.

[John Caramonica]

Okay, well, okay.

[Jack Harlow]

I'll put it like this. It ain't a cowboy hat. You get what I'm saying?

[John Caramonica]

Yes, I was going to say so. Name three immortal technique songs.

[Jack Harlow]

I got none for you.

[John Caramonica]

Sorry, it's too easy. But that it is not a cowboy hat. It is very specifically allied with a moment, like, for a Moment for me in backpack rap in that same Slum Village era. Again, to me, it represents maybe the hyper wordy side of it, not so much the kind of melodic and smooth side. Although I guess those hats did get around a lot during that era. But that is, in fact, what you are trying to code by wearing those hats.

[Jack Harlow]

Yeah.

[John Caramonica]

I think we're about to show, like, nine photos of you wearing this kind of hatch. Just halfway. Okay.

[Jack Harlow]

I think, you know, you're making this music and you got mirrors in your house, and you think about what you're

[John Caramonica]

doing, and you just start and you

[Jack Harlow]

put something on, and it feels right. It feels good. Of course. Of course. I'm not claiming that I'm not conscious, but a lot of these decisions, they weren't. They weren't put together.

[John Caramonica]

But you already owned that hat.

[Jack Harlow]

I bought. Yes. Before this album started, I owned that hat. But I won't say there's something clearly in me and in the zeitgeist that caused me to buy that hat around the same time that I was starting this music. Put it on him in the mirror, and I'm like, you know, this looks pretty good, especially soundtrack, with what I'm making right now.

[John Caramonica]

Okay.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And then you rule.

[Jack Harlow]

Yeah.

[John Caramonica]

And then the hat in the Frenchtte video. You have this video that came out on your YouTube channel, which is you. Who are the other folks in the video?

[Jack Harlow]

Ky. Engineering.

[John Caramonica]

Yep.

[Jack Harlow]

Who's a Lexington native, and Nemo Akita, who's also a Lexington native. Two guys that I've been around since the beginning of my career and been key to mentorship, if anything, honestly.

[John Caramonica]

And you are talking to them about dating and interracial dating. But you are also wearing quite the kind of sock hat, which you mentioned earlier is Miyake.

[Jack Harlow]

Yeah.

[John Caramonica]

Tell me about. Why is headwear such a powerful signal? I know it's a goofy question, but I do think it really does tell a specific part of the story.

[Jack Harlow]

I mean, I don't disagree with you. I'd be curious what you're getting from it. Not because I'm not willing to say, but I don't know exactly what it's signaling. I know it gives me a feeling that I like when I say it.

[John Caramonica]

What is that feeling?

[Jack Harlow]

Well, for one, it's nice to look different than you've looked in the past. So you put something on and you're like, cool. This doesn't look like 2022. It's a new version of me that's appealing for one. Just in a vacuum. And then, I don't know. I think there's something playful about it. This album's kind of serious. I like the idea of showing that I'm not trying to present myself as some distinguished professor. Like, I'm 27. Like, I'm excited. About to be 28. When this comes out, I'm excited.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Happy early birthday.

[Jack Harlow]

Thank you. Happy birthday.

[John Caramonica]

Today is today. It's coming out on your birthday, which is today. Ah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Happy birthday, Jen.

[Jack Harlow]

Of course. Thank you.

[John Caramonica]

In many senses.

[Jack Harlow]

Thank you. But I think it's fun to put things on that are playful and cause a reaction for people. And maybe even her polarizing. Maybe there's a girl that's like, that's cute. And then there's a girl that's like, what are you wearing? You know what I'm saying? It's nice.

[John Caramonica]

Creates both openers.

[Jack Harlow]

There's a fun tension. Both openers.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It's a conversation.

[Jack Harlow]

And I love an opener. But I have to ask, especially what I didn't have to come up with.

[John Caramonica]

We've seen some of you.

[Joe Coscarelli]

There's a compilation of your openers. I'm done opening.

[Jack Harlow]

I'm a headliner now.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It's not great for the curls. I was joking about this, but earlier. But, like, your curls are flattened out. Like, what's in the. What's in the curl?

[Jack Harlow]

What's your curl? You're losing your swag.

[John Caramonica]

I did not say that.

[Jack Harlow]

You didn't have to, you know. No, it's good to me. You know what it is? I wanted to make it a trick of salt and pepper. Foxes man, that's really what it is.

[Joe Coscarelli]

There we go.

[Jack Harlow]

Because I got my grades coming in, and I am.

[John Caramonica]

It's fine to say that to me. I think you might have just heard Joe's phone.

[Jack Harlow]

No, no, I know, okay?

[Joe Coscarelli]

I know.

[Jack Harlow]

Collateral.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Look, I'm a grown ass man. I'm a father.

[Jack Harlow]

That's how I perceived you before you said it. So good. Thank you.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Why'd you move to New York?

[Jack Harlow]

I was living in Kentucky, which I love living in Kentucky, but I think I just got to a place where, hey, I'm not retired. I need stimulation.

[John Caramonica]

And you still lived in the apartment you had just bought when we first spoke. You had bought something maybe in 2021 or 2022.

[Jack Harlow]

I bought a crib in Kentucky and I still live there, technically. So when I'm home, I'm there. But I just. I needed a jolt. I think the last few years, I've gained a new thirst for knowledge and learning. I can feel the fact that I missed out on college.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I saw you at Climax Books.

[John Caramonica]

Hello to Isabella. Nice to see you.

[Jack Harlow]

Hello to Isabella. And I think some of the things I was reading and watching, they were taking place in New York. And suddenly I started to say, you know, New York is a backdrop for my life. Sounds appealing. And it was all just gut feeling. Like, I feel like that's where I need to be. So towards the end of 24, I was like, I'm moving to New York.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Nothing better than your 20s in New York, which is factual.

[Jack Harlow]

I need forward momentum. I need to be learning. I need to be meeting people that are after the same thing as me. And there's people like that, Louisville. But it's not quite as many sometimes.

[John Caramonica]

So your first six months in New York, what's your cultural diet? What's your absorption?

[Joe Coscarelli]

What are you seeing?

[John Caramonica]

Yeah, what are you going seeing? Hearing, touching.

[Jack Harlow]

Yeah. I think I immediately hit the block and started walking like I just downtown. And I just wanted to render in my head my surroundings. I think just as a person, that's. I like to know where I'm going and get my bearings a little bit and learn the street names and learn where I'm at. So, you know, at least downtown I feel very comfortable at this point. But that took some effort, that took some conscious effort of like, I'm going to step out until I have this figured out and say, oh, I've arrived in the same spot I arrived at when I came this way. You know what I mean?

[John Caramonica]

Solo or with guys?

[Jack Harlow]

Don't solo with groups, with people that Are here discovering it with people that have never been here, et cetera. I love dining, you know, I would much rather go to dinner than go to the club. So trying as many restaurants as I can.

[Joe Coscarelli]

No shortage.

[Jack Harlow]

And movies. I mean, when I discovered the independent theaters out here and their programming, that gave me something to do because I.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Film forum guy, a Metrograph guy.

[Jack Harlow]

All of them. Ifc, Film Forum, Metrograph. But yeah, I just, I. I want to ingest. I just want to be ingesting. And so when I got here, that was.

[Joe Coscarelli]

So you were in sponge mode. And there's no better place to be a sponge.

[Jack Harlow]

Yeah. And we were laughing. I laugh about it with my friends. I call it obsessive self enhancement. Because it's like we try to figure out, are we doing anything that is just to be done. Are we doing anything just for the sake of doing it? Because even dinners sometimes I'm like, huh, there's something I'm looking to glean from this even subconsciously. Sure, that's not a good thing. But that's where I'm at. Life is. I'm like, I want to try places. I want to be enriched. I want to be enriched. So I think that's what the move is.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You're talking about your love of movies. You just made your letterbox public. I have to ask the behind the scenes question. Share a publicist with Charli xcx. Yeah, she just had a big hit. Putting her letterbox out. Was this album promo or was this.

[Jack Harlow]

Absolutely not. And you know, I'm actually so glad I.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Was this a playbook or this was. This was all you.

[Jack Harlow]

It was not a playbook. I could tell you with conviction you

[Joe Coscarelli]

were really on letterboxd.

[Jack Harlow]

I mean, I think you should just go take a look at it. Cause it's actually pretty lived in.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I think it's pretty good. Yeah, I noticed. Can I just shout out your review of Klute?

[Jack Harlow]

Am I wrong?

[Joe Coscarelli]

Cuz looks like the dare.

[Jack Harlow]

Donald Sutherland. Sutherland looks just like him.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Shout out to Harrison the Dareson.

[John Caramonica]

Good to see you.

[Joe Coscarelli]

That's a compliment. Looking like Donald Sutherland in the 70s.

[Jack Harlow]

I don't disagree.

[Joe Coscarelli]

But that, that I agree. When I saw that one, I was like, okay, this was not meant to be public or this was not made to be public.

[Jack Harlow]

For sure. I love the login quality of that. And I never wanted to make it public because I'd gone so long without music that I think I was embarrassed to come back to my fan base and say, hey, why don't y' all watch Me watch movies? Like, I needed to announce music first. And now that I've announced music, I'm like, you know, why don't I let people into this little world?

[Joe Coscarelli]

I'm not on letterbox, so I'm talking a big game with. No, I love your preface.

[Jack Harlow]

You always act like you're about to put me on the spot. Yeah, yeah.

[John Caramonica]

Well, but also. But you watch a lot of movies. You watch way more movies than I do.

[Jack Harlow]

I could have guessed that.

[Joe Coscarelli]

More than Jon Jon. Not a movies guy, but I don't

[John Caramonica]

seem like a cinephile.

[Jack Harlow]

I mean, do you miss a beat on anything media? I feel like you are an art taker, inner.

[Joe Coscarelli]

That's what we do. That's what we got. That's what.

[Jack Harlow]

So go ahead. What do you think?

[Joe Coscarelli]

You're not starring in these movies.

[Jack Harlow]

Correct.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Is that fear Political?

[Jack Harlow]

Yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Is that political? Like you don't want to offend a director because you're still trying to get back on the big screen?

[Jack Harlow]

You know what it is? I don't even know if I want to act anymore. I've discovered I don't like acting that much. So I wouldn't say it's driven by that. I think it's a little messy when you see all those stars.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Okay.

[Jack Harlow]

I think it's actually rather uninteresting to see if somebody gave a three and a half or a four. I'd rather trim the fat. And you either see a heart or you don't.

[John Caramonica]

Right.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You do. Like a little critic's choice. Like, either I fuck with this or

[Jack Harlow]

I don't fuck with this. And I don't actually, you know, know, like there are real critics out here that have. Fair enough, you know? You know what I'm saying?

[Joe Coscarelli]

Fair enough. No, but I. I think there's something about.

[Jack Harlow]

I don't aspire to be a critic.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I. I scared of rating systems because they've been rated their whole lives.

[John Caramonica]

But I also. I mean, but I also think rating systems, obviously.

[Jack Harlow]

So maybe what you're saying is maybe I have an empathy.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I think that's right.

[Jack Harlow]

And, and that could be true. And it. Maybe it's conscious, maybe it's subconscious. I don't know. But yes. Maybe I'm not as interested in, you know, laying down an opinion about how. How high quality this is. You know what I've noticed in letterbox, it's just a chance for me to express myself and react to different pieces of art.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I love the blogging quality of it. Like, people are legitimately funny. Yourself included. Like, I think like, this is like. It's a place to get jokes off. Like Twitter in 2012. You know what I mean?

[Jack Harlow]

Because I'm not. I'll say it like this. I'm not even that interested in how many stars someone wants to give a movie, and I'm not very interested in how many stars I want to give a movie. I just. I'm posting what I'm interested in.

[Joe Coscarelli]

All right? By the time this episode comes out, I will have started my letterboxd.

[Jack Harlow]

I can't believe you have this.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I'm ready.

[Jack Harlow]

I've always.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I've been. I've been letterbox curious for a minute now, but I'm ready to. I'm ready to. I'm ready to log.

[John Caramonica]

I don't need any more writing assignments.

[Jack Harlow]

I'm surprised you ain't got one.

[Joe Coscarelli]

All we do is video.

[John Caramonica]

I know. I have a book to finish. Jeez. When you are sort of on this mission of absorption when you move to New York, are there things that you saw, ate, felt that actually opened up something new in you that you didn't know that you had emotionally or creatively?

[Jack Harlow]

City biking.

[John Caramonica]

Because it's one thing to be like, I walked the streets, I went to the bar. I went to Clandestino. It's one thing to do that, but it's another thing to be like, I tried something that is totally foreign to me. I went and saw a movie in a language that I don't know, and there's no subtitles, and I went, I don't. I don't fucking know. I'm just saying that there are ways to absorb things that reinforce your sense of self, even if you're doing it casually or reshape it.

[Jack Harlow]

Yes, of course.

[John Caramonica]

And I want to know where on that arc you felt like.

[Jack Harlow]

It'll be hard for me to pick out specific things, but what you're saying makes a lot of sense to me because I am forever interested in how many blind spots of my own can I discover. And, you know, I'm totally curious about things that maybe weren't available to my friend group or weren't available in the hometown I was in, because becoming more well rounded is exciting. And you feel like, you know, especially if you were the kid in public school that got along with so many different groups of people, you carry that with you and you'd like to think, cool. I'd like to gain more and more understanding, and it's also discovering what you don't like. I am enjoying growing into a person that knows what I'm Disgusted by.

[John Caramonica]

By.

[Jack Harlow]

Instead of just like, oh, I love that. I love that. Oh yeah, I see beauty in everything. I don't see beauty in everything. I'd like to try everything and say, oh no, that ain't for me. That's not, you know, I don't like that. So I'm very interested in things that reinforce something besides what I already perceive myself to be. I'm constantly interested in challenging that.

[John Caramonica]

So, yeah, you mentioned to go back to the kind of relentless and maybe restless self enhancement.

[Jack Harlow]

I'm glad you like that. I could see a glimmer in your eyes. I'm going to exploit this one.

[John Caramonica]

Yeah, lean in.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It's going to pop up in a story soon.

[Jack Harlow]

Bring it on.

[John Caramonica]

I wonder. I don't want to say the prior incarnation because it's not like you've been around 60 years and have had a hundred. When I think of the Jack on the Jungkook record Loving on Me, these are ego driven big hits in my mind. Is being ego driven in the context of the music that you used to make or were making? Is there something about braggadocio that is an endpoint in and of itself where you say, I'm this guy, I'm great, I'm excellent. I have so much to offer. Is that inconsistent with the kind of self improvement or growth or absorption that you're seeking to engage in now?

[Jack Harlow]

Well, it certainly can't be totally unrelated. I mean, I can't tell if you're asking, have I actually escaped my ego? Because I don't think I have.

[John Caramonica]

I don't think you have.

[Jack Harlow]

Yeah, no, no, no.

[John Caramonica]

I don't think it's that. But I just wonder if in order to create egoless music in an era of your life where you are still accessing the ego? Yeah. Like, I wonder how hard it is to kind of say I'm gonna, of course compartmentalize.

[Jack Harlow]

I mean, yeah, there's a. It's all about how, you know, how Zen are you actually willing to go? Of course, you know, I, I wasn't willing to convert to Buddhism this round. Maybe eventually I will, who knows? But yeah, I, I still, I totally agree. I think maybe that's my. Maybe that's why I even raised. The point is I still have these conflicts with like, you know, oh, wow, there's ego in that too. It continues to pop up as I continue to try and reconcile it. So I guess my answer is I don't disagree with you.

[John Caramonica]

When we spoke earlier, we were revisiting some themes from our 2022 conversation. And that was a time when you were saying, I think I can be one of the top guys. I can be, like, on Rap Caviar every week, playing in that space. I feel like I'm good enough. My songs are good enough. I feel like I can keep doing that. And obviously, that's not exactly what we're doing now. But I wonder if you can talk me through letting go of some of that, because that bluster is part of the original charm of Jack Harlow arriving into the game. And I wonder if you could talk about, do you have fond memories of that bluster and what is it like to let go of that?

[Jack Harlow]

I think that's such a wonderful question. I definitely question how much of that bluster I'm able to access. But I also know that there's different seasons in your career that call for different things. And I think I'm just embracing the season I'm in, and this is what it is. And, you know, I also think that life and a career, but life especially, humbles you and teaches you things and teaches you not to be so certain about who you are and where you're headed. And so I do not rule that type of music out at all. But I would like to do it at a higher frequency. I'd like to do it at a higher level. I'd like it to be more unique. Maybe it come from a more unique point of view if I do make some of that more braggadocious music. Because I think there's a way to do it. You know, When I put out Tranquility, I don't know if y' all heard Tranquility, but I put it out towards the end of last year. That was one of the first times I felt like I captured what I'd be looking for as a rapper in returning to rap.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah,

[Jack Harlow]

Spectacles last project I was giving you conceptual. Next project I'll be giving you exceptional. Everybody got me on some pansexual. Yeah, it just. In terms of the mood and my point of view on it, I think

[Joe Coscarelli]

there's a lot of that on Jackman, too. Like, in little bits and pieces. Like, I think specifically of the first track, common Ground. Yeah. You know, where it's like, where you're tackling race head on, reciting rap lyrics by murdering cash.

[Jack Harlow]

Profit get to feel like a thug but don't have to act on it. For sure. But I just think. I don't know. I don't want to get lost on

[John Caramonica]

a tangent, but it's the only way to get lost. Of course, you said that life can humble you. Are there specific things that happened 2024, 2025 that are not musical, not connected to songmaking that put you in a position of feeling maybe more humble as an individual, which then refracts back to what you feel like you want to make?

[Jack Harlow]

I sure hope so.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I think moving to New York can do that to people where you're like, well, you've always been the biggest person.

[Jack Harlow]

That's a nice life rap. You just threw me, to be honest, because I think I'm just gonna be real. I realized that when I was in my early 20s, New York did not appeal to me as much. And part of that is the imposter syndrome of radio freestyles, label meetings. You're showing up to audition to see if you have what it takes to do the thing you love.

[John Caramonica]

It's a place of work.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Time.

[John Caramonica]

School is like, literally, you associate.

[Jack Harlow]

It was something negative, and then that doesn't even. That's aside from how much it is. And I think I look back at my early 20s, and I was very uninterested in being one in a million or being amongst the sea of people. Being in the crowd, I was very averse to being in the audience. I think I had a need to be the main character and be on stage. And I think as I get older, that is less and less important to me to be the main guy and be the guy that is always getting the attention. Don't get me wrong, I still have a deep need for attention, but I think I'm more comfortable walking around New York and being one in this seat. New York makes you feel small, and I'm okay with feeling small more than I was maybe years ago.

[John Caramonica]

You were on a very Drake path for a while.

[Jack Harlow]

Yes. School of Drake. Absolutely.

[John Caramonica]

And also personal kinship with him, and not just as a friend, but I think as a kind of lodestar of how to move.

[Jack Harlow]

I met Drizzy. I knew he and I would get along, but it's hard to crack jokes when you really want advice.

[John Caramonica]

I feel like that is less where you are now. Tell me about letting go, if you are indeed letting go more moving away from that approach to the world.

[Jack Harlow]

Absolutely.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah. It's like, I'm gonna be Michael Jackson or I'm gonna die trying.

[Jack Harlow]

Yeah, yeah. Everything y' all are saying, it resonates with me. And I think as I've gotten older, I've become more concerned with finding my voice and finding the way I want to move as an artist. And I think I'm Much more averse to mimicry or anything that feels derivative than I was in the past. I think I was so determined to achieve a certain thing and land in a certain place that maybe the spot I wanted to land in my head wasn't as nuanced as it is now. And I think that individuality is what appeals to me more, which is maybe why I'm willing to make a project like Jackman and Monica, which, you know, have their own qualities of influence. But I'm looking to carve out my own island, and I'm less concerned with how immediately big I can make that island.

[John Caramonica]

Like, the size of the fame doesn't matter, because there was a time when the size of the fame matters.

[Joe Coscarelli]

But it's easy to not worry about the size of the fame when you've already had almost the biggest size of fame. Like, it's easy for you now to be like, I can try something else. Because you almost achieved as much as you could possibly achieve, at least in little moments.

[Jack Harlow]

It's partly that you definitely get a taste. But I also think you can't hide behind that. It's also what's available to you. You know what I'm saying? Some things are out of your control, and your career unfolds a certain way, and people react a certain way, and they perceive you a certain way, and you are forced to work with the materials that the world is giving you. So it's very easy for me to say, oh, it's so funny. The materials that everyone gave me with their reactions, it's actually exactly what I wanted. So I'm gonna actually build my shed with that. No, you get what's available to you. So early in my career, I was split between do I want to be an entertainer or an artist, Do I want to be a celebrity or an artist. I have now chosen artists in a way that I wasn't as sure about. Early on. I thought I could do both, but I realized that, you know, not everybody can do both at the exact same moment, you know? So I'm focusing on the artistry. And if that means suddenly we intertwine celebrity and entertainer back into that, that's wonderful. I think naturally that can happen. I'd like to think I can do that, but I. I've committed, and that's what I want to do, is commit to the art.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You know, Are you still in therapy, or you just have Jon?

[Jack Harlow]

He's had that in the clip for seven minutes, waiting for the chance to say it.

[John Caramonica]

Triple A. And I didn't even know it was there.

[Joe Coscarelli]

John didn't know.

[Jack Harlow]

Are you making a joke? Are you asking me?

[Joe Coscarelli]

I'm asking. I'm serious.

[John Caramonica]

You're.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You're a. You're a very self aware person, especially for a celebrity, A recovering celebrity in their late 20s. No, you sound, you sound like you've had some albums.

[John Caramonica]

Album five. Recovering celebrity.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Are you still in therapy? I know you've talked about it in the past. I think you're not.

[Jack Harlow]

I'm not in therapy.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You felt like you got what you needed to out of that experience.

[Jack Harlow]

I might talk to a therapist next week. But when somebody says, are you in therapy? It's like, is that a.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It wasn't judgment.

[Jack Harlow]

I didn't take it as judgment at all. I'm saying, but the question feels like, is that a regimented part of your life?

[Joe Coscarelli]

It isn't part of your life. No.

[Jack Harlow]

No. It's not habitual.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I want to cycle back one more time to dating and women. Before we move into our lightning round. Let's rock out the video. John alluded to the album teaser. One of your friends asked you, like is is essentially, is dating in New York still a magical fun time for you? But you sort of dodged the question in the video. So is dating in New York still a wild ride fun time for you?

[Jack Harlow]

I mean, I don't feel like I'm in the wrong place.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Who's Monica? Is she an idea?

[Jack Harlow]

I just have always loved that name. I think that name is so pretty. I've always liked it. It's just like how I feel about the name Adrian for a man. I love the name Adrian for a man. Well, it can be for both, sure. But I'm saying I love the. I love when I meet a man named Adrian. I'm like, okay,

[Joe Coscarelli]

wild top five Adrians.

[Jack Harlow]

You don't know any of the ones I know.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Damn.

[Jack Harlow]

I got some Adrian's in my own.

[John Caramonica]

In your pocket.

[Jack Harlow]

You got a pocket like Brody's probably seven.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah.

[Jack Harlow]

I know some Adrian's a challenge and he's a beast, but I know some Adrian. But yeah, Monica's just a pretty name, man. And I, you know, it's the passive thing we're talking about. You want the music to sound good forever. I want the album title to be something I can say forever and enjoy saying it and enjoy hearing it.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Right before last track, you hear your parents talking about their love story. Is that right?

[Jack Harlow]

Yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Talking about their dating life turning into their life together.

[Jack Harlow]

We went to a movie the next time. Yeah. Was that the second date? First Official date. Date was a movie, and then we went to dinner.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And then the album ends on this sentiment of I'll call you when my life slows down. Like, I'll let you know when I'm. When I'm ready. Essentially, It's an album of romantic ups and downs, come ons, goodbyes, but you sort of land in this place that to me says, I think about love all the time. I'm a romantic. I'm obsessed with women and experience. Am I wrong?

[Jack Harlow]

No, Cap, but.

[Joe Coscarelli]

But I'm not ready to settle down yet. Is that. Is that the. Is that where you. Is that where you are?

[Jack Harlow]

I wrote the album for a reason. Not so we could sum it up and bastardize it. No offense.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You tell me then.

[Jack Harlow]

I already told you. I made the album. I mean, what the album was. What are you asking me?

[Joe Coscarelli]

I'm just asking if that landing point is where you were when you finished the album or that's an accurate summation.

[Jack Harlow]

I think that outro.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Where you are now.

[Jack Harlow]

Yeah, it is accurate. And I think say hello is probably. It probably captures the album the most for me. I think that outro is really saying, you don't have any obligation to me. I don't have any obligation to you. But it doesn't mean we can't share a warm feeling for the rest of our lives. Maybe when I run into you, it could still be all good. I hate ending on bad terms. I don't want my album to end on bad terms.

[John Caramonica]

But again, ego, maybe so, Jon. Not maybe.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I've talked about that.

[Jack Harlow]

But. Hey, John, a second. He's derailed your whole. Shit.

[John Caramonica]

No, I'm re.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Railing. John. Playing therapist.

[John Caramonica]

Not playing.

[Jack Harlow]

He's not playing.

[John Caramonica]

Not playing, big bro, not therapist, Just not playing.

[Jack Harlow]

No, he's being shrewd. I get it, but I don't think. I don't think so. I don't understand. You can find ego behind anything. I'm just talking about things that are. Say why. That's ego. Please explain to me what about that? Sentiment is ego driven. If you can find ego within it, somewhere in the crevices, cool.

[John Caramonica]

I won't argue with you because I think what I suspect is that the warm feeling that you're seeking, the long term warm feeling, the ability to return to a person.

[Jack Harlow]

Wait, who said I was seeking that?

[John Caramonica]

You just said. That doesn't mean we can't share a warm feeling. Even if we don't. If we're not in love. Number one. If you are the person who is setting those terms and what you are doing is essentially, if you wish for some other feeling towards me, I'm actually not going to make room for that. I actually can't give space to that. And that's because I wish to have wide, warm feelings potentially. And that's one way to think about it. And that position is a position of ego. Now, I can't presume to know what's on the other end of every of those. Each of those conversations, but I do think being able to set those terms and actually having the power to set

[Jack Harlow]

those terms, proposed terms, why can't turns be proposed and agreed upon, that's not so ego driven to say, hey, this is what I'm thinking. What are you thinking? That's where I'm at with it. It's, you know, I'm not. They gotta make their album and respond, but this is my.

[John Caramonica]

And we will happily welcome them.

[Jack Harlow]

What are you doing with that?

[Joe Coscarelli]

You're gonna pull a card.

[John Caramonica]

What are you doing with that?

[Joe Coscarelli]

You're gonna pull a card. It's gonna correspond to a question pre.

[Jack Harlow]

You know, I can see this side.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It doesn't matter what the cards are because you don't know what the questions are no more. Pull a couple cards. This is a podcast Lightning round. What do you got?

[Jack Harlow]

Six.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Six of what? This.

[Jack Harlow]

Clubs are spades.

[Joe Coscarelli]

The thing I've learned most from doing the lightning round is that nobody knows.

[John Caramonica]

Nobody plays cards.

[Jack Harlow]

Every famous person played poker or making music for a living.

[John Caramonica]

Oh, my gosh, we all have time

[Jack Harlow]

to go home and play with each other.

[John Caramonica]

I wish we had extra decks of cards. We would send you home with ones you could have in the studio.

[Jack Harlow]

I would recognize hearts.

[Joe Coscarelli]

The most Jack Harlow thing ever said.

[Jack Harlow]

Feel me?

[Joe Coscarelli]

Spades are its clubs.

[Jack Harlow]

Maybe diamonds too. I might have recognized diamonds.

[John Caramonica]

Six of spades.

[Joe Coscarelli]

This is a good one for you. This is a good one for you. You do the cards if I'm gonna do the questions. This is a good one for you. Six of spades. In what ways are you still immature?

[Jack Harlow]

He just told y'. All.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Give us one more.

[Jack Harlow]

He actually covered my whole list. How am I still immature? Still a control freak in a way that life, I assume, teaches you not to be. Still, I'm trying to have this chokehold

[John Caramonica]

on outcomes, personal and professional.

[Jack Harlow]

Sure. I just noticed that there's a rigidity that I can't shake, that it feels a little immature sometimes.

[John Caramonica]

Do you feel like moving to New York, for example, and kind of like destabilizing your own personal, your life? Like just being like, I'm gonna move to a new city. I'm gonna feel like I'm in a place that I don't totally understand. Was part of that thinking in order to get away from that version of

[Jack Harlow]

immaturity a little bit. I have a very comfortable, predictable life back in Kentucky. Yeah. And I don't know how. How good that is for growth, so. Yeah, maybe so. All right.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Pull another card.

[Jack Harlow]

Nine of diamonds.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Nine of diamonds. How many people's phone numbers do you have memorized?

[Jack Harlow]

2.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Mom and dad, how many people's phone

[John Caramonica]

numbers do you have memorized?

[Joe Coscarelli]

Two. I bet I. If. I bet if I dug deep, I could get, like, my high school best friend's cell phones back in my head, but. But basically just my mom and my wife.

[Jack Harlow]

Yeah. You mean if you memorize more, you would know more?

[Joe Coscarelli]

No, I mean, they're somewhere deep in my memory, and if I thought about it for two seconds, I think I could recover that memory. Nah, that's boring as hell. Pull another card.

[Jack Harlow]

Five of diamonds. What a good spot.

[John Caramonica]

Build a good hand.

[Joe Coscarelli]

This is a good. This is a good one, too. Whose social media page do you spend too much time on?

[Jack Harlow]

Nobody's.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You're off or you just don't.

[Jack Harlow]

I just know there's no page that I spend too much time on. Tell you that.

[John Caramonica]

Whose social media page do you spend the right amount of time on?

[Jack Harlow]

Any of them. I mean, I'm not trying to be evasive. This one is.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Can I just say, I really appreciate you're the first artist of any stature to just hit the DM direct to share the music because, like, I'm very protective.

[Jack Harlow]

There's a control freak coming out.

[Joe Coscarelli]

But I actually appreciate.

[John Caramonica]

But also.

[Joe Coscarelli]

But I think lack of middlemen.

[John Caramonica]

Yeah. Like, the. The idea sometime that impulse of control can manifest as preciousness. Like, oh, I couldn't possibly share this.

[Jack Harlow]

You know, like, it's funny because I see it as opposite. Like, oh, I don't have to. I don't have to put it through the team.

[John Caramonica]

Yeah, no, I agree with you. Like, that's how it should be, or that's how that's the correct way to operate.

[Jack Harlow]

I don't know if I'm allowed to DM y' all because y' all have a journalistic integrity to protect. So I was like, here. Am I allowed to speak to you?

[Joe Coscarelli]

No, it's like, it was. You know.

[Jack Harlow]

Yes.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I appreciate it.

[Jack Harlow]

So thank you.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Thank you for that.

[John Caramonica]

Your DMs are open for this.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Anyone who I. I read my DMs.

[John Caramonica]

Yeah, yeah. And I respond.

[Jack Harlow]

I respond, a pair of New Balances was.

[Joe Coscarelli]

A DM is not the same as a pair. A pair of Harlow New Balances are of a certain value.

[Jack Harlow]

They're showing up now. I'm gonna get the P.O.

[John Caramonica]

box, but I did get the promo, the KFC promo pack, because it was under that price limit. I don't know, it's just. Maybe it was like, in from the label. Yeah, like, that's sitting in. That's in the ar.

[Joe Coscarelli]

All right, pull another card.

[Jack Harlow]

This is awesome. This is such a good time with y'. All.

[John Caramonica]

Oh, that's kind. I hope you're having fun.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I already see the comments and the DMs I'm going to get, which is like, why was this guy so mean to Jack?

[Jack Harlow]

I hope that's what they say instead of something else. Eight of spades.

[Joe Coscarelli]

All right. What always makes you laugh?

[Jack Harlow]

Old clips of my friend group from when we were teenagers. Somebody dropped something from the group chat that made us laugh 10 years ago. It still smokes me just, you know, super great answer. Personal.

[John Caramonica]

Yep. Videos of you guys or videos you watched or the watch.

[Jack Harlow]

No. Things of us. Things that have become memes within our group that only 10 people would understand. They hit just so hard because you just. You build up a memory of laughing about them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

All right, pull one more card, and then we'll eat a snack.

[Jack Harlow]

Like a hearts.

[John Caramonica]

I. Come on, man. This isn't even. I. I literally. I shouldn't even curse. But that's not. That's not fair. That's no cursing on this album. That's not fair. This is crazier than Bony Bear pulling a full house.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Bon.

[John Caramonica]

I Bear pulled a full house. Justin pulled like the five cards were a full house.

[Jack Harlow]

That's unreal.

[John Caramonica]

It's shocking.

[Joe Coscarelli]

But that leads us right into our final question, which is, do you gamble? And if so, what's your game?

[Jack Harlow]

I don't gamble.

[Joe Coscarelli]

No FanDuel, no draft. No DraftKings prize picks. None of this is sponsored.

[Jack Harlow]

I've never had a parlay. I've never done nothing.

[John Caramonica]

I don't even know what a parlay is.

[Jack Harlow]

Well, then you're like me, boss.

[John Caramonica]

Yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

No gambling. It's not in your. You don't. You don't have a stomach for risk.

[Jack Harlow]

I'll play when I go back to Louisville. I'll play poker with my boys and Everybody throw a 20 in. But I don't gamble.

[John Caramonica]

No Vegas. Like, no poker table.

[Jack Harlow]

I can't wait to leave Vegas. Anytime I'm there. Now, gambling is not a thrill of mine.

[John Caramonica]

Control freak.

[Jack Harlow]

Perhaps.

[John Caramonica]

A lot of perhaps in this interview.

[Jack Harlow]

That's right. A lot of perhaps in my life.

[John Caramonica]

Did you. Were you. Were you workshop. Were you workshopping that before coming in today? Like the kind of. Like the perhaps could be. What do you think?

[Jack Harlow]

What do you think? You think I was?

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah.

[Jack Harlow]

Yeah. I love. I love how suspicious of me you are.

[John Caramonica]

I'm not suspicious. I'm just.

[Jack Harlow]

But you can't see your face. I can't. You're looking at me like just a

[John Caramonica]

curious guy taking it all in.

[Jack Harlow]

I totally get it.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Every episode of Podcast ends with a snack test. You walked in, you picked two snacks.

[John Caramonica]

It wasn't two. It was picked that one and dinner.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You had buyer's remorse. You had second thoughts. It's almost like you don't like to choose one thing, you know? You don't want to tie yourself down to one thing, you know?

[Jack Harlow]

Pretty amazing.

[John Caramonica]

Wow.

[Jack Harlow]

Pretty amazing and true.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You got Terry's.

[John Caramonica]

That was a freestyle, too.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Chocolate, orange slices, minis, and you got Milkita.

[John Caramonica]

These, I'm pretty sure. Okay, so I'm naming my daughter the Milkitas. I feel like I bought in Hawaii. I'm not a hundred percent sure. Terry's. Where do those come from?

[Joe Coscarelli]

They look British.

[John Caramonica]

I mean, they're British, but did you buy them?

[Joe Coscarelli]

Not that I know of. Neither expired, which is great. We often eat expired snacks here. The Milkitas, which. You want to go chocolate chase with Milkita or you want to go Milkita chase with chocolate?

[Jack Harlow]

What do you think? You're the connoisseur of this stuff.

[John Caramonica]

Wait, can I just. Milkita chocolate.

[Jack Harlow]

Trust me.

[John Caramonica]

This guy. This guy.

[Jack Harlow]

You thought I was over there fumbling around.

[John Caramonica]

Phenomenal. He was trying to make a joke. Phenomenal.

[Joe Coscarelli]

We got it.

[Jack Harlow]

I didn't know it was a joke. All right, how about a statement?

[Joe Coscarelli]

Choose your own adventure. In terms of order. Strawberry milk.

[John Caramonica]

Choose your own adventure.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Flavor gummies.

[John Caramonica]

Oh.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Oh, Melkuch.

[John Caramonica]

Oh.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I was not expecting that I was gonna be chewy.

[John Caramonica]

Last week, I got in trouble for saying that something was a laborious chew.

[Joe Coscarelli]

This is not a chew.

[John Caramonica]

It's so laborious that it's not even a chew.

[Jack Harlow]

Yeah, I can't even get this going yet.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Jack, you know what laborious means.

[John Caramonica]

This was a point of contention with

[Joe Coscarelli]

your friend who accused me of roasting this man for saying laboriously looked at

[John Caramonica]

me and said, just say chewy. To which my response is, anyone can say chewy.

[Jack Harlow]

Oh, that's low hanging fruit. He didn't have much to work with. I guess he's like, what the hell does that mean? Who the is saying laborious in everyday life?

[John Caramonica]

I've never heard it, bro. Would it be better if we were just letting it?

[Joe Coscarelli]

I think that's the letting it. I think it's a. I think it's a long snack.

[Jack Harlow]

Well said.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I'm gonna spit it out. I don't like it.

[Jack Harlow]

I'm not.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I don't like it.

[Jack Harlow]

I'm loving this. Y' all got all these gripes. I love it.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Where do you rate it?

[John Caramonica]

Where do you rate it?

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah, one out of ten?

[Jack Harlow]

Six.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I'm a four.

[John Caramonica]

Yeah, it's a four.

[Jack Harlow]

Well, I'm not as, you know, seasoned as y' all with this stuff.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You eat a lot of junk food?

[Jack Harlow]

I have these every week. No, I don't eat DNA.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You're. You're a healthy eater. Nice. Good for you.

[Jack Harlow]

Thank you.

[John Caramonica]

Always, like, since, you know, your teenage years.

[Jack Harlow]

No, I used to eat insane.

[John Caramonica]

And what. What changed you?

[Jack Harlow]

Vanity.

[John Caramonica]

Yeah, that'll do it.

[Jack Harlow]

Wanting to feel good, you know, your system. You get older, they always tell you, oh, I can't eat like that no more. It's true. Suddenly your body just doesn't.

[Joe Coscarelli]

We haven't hit that point yet, John

[Jack Harlow]

and I, because y' all are beasts.

[John Caramonica]

Or if I have, I have feno eel.

[Jack Harlow]

I just gave up red meat.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Oh, really? I like the chocolate orange slices. I grew up on these. Not this brand, but I've never had one of these. It's a classic.

[John Caramonica]

So orange flavored chocolate?

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yes.

[John Caramonica]

It's not a piece of orange, like a candied piece of orange.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It's chocolate with a essence of orange.

[Jack Harlow]

Chocolate orange.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I used to get one for Christmas every year in the shape of an orange. You smash it and then the pieces open up.

[Jack Harlow]

What are you talking about?

[John Caramonica]

Yeah, this is less. I was worried it would be too fragrant in a way.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Subtle.

[John Caramonica]

Yeah. This is less offensive than I thought it was going to be.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I think it's very artful.

[John Caramonica]

Yeah, I thought it would be.

[Jack Harlow]

I don't know.

[John Caramonica]

I think also, as I'm older, citrusy flavors, which used to really kind of like, stress me out. Don't stress me out the way that they used to. But I think this is. This is. Yeah, it really is. It's actually one of the rare signs of maturity that I've had in my. In my 40s. Stomach in my 40s towards 50s.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I like this a lot. I think that's like an eight and a half out of ten. I'm Not a chocolate guy in general, but I think it's a really nice snack.

[John Caramonica]

The chocolate does have that kind of, like, chalkiness of British chocolate, which is very different than the smoothness of American chocolate. But I do find the flavor. This is bomb sophisticated. What do you. What do you rate it?

[Jack Harlow]

I haven't had a piece of Candy in maybe 18 months.

[John Caramonica]

Wow.

[Jack Harlow]

So that just tastes so good. Wow.

[John Caramonica]

I hope we didn't permanently derail your life cycle.

[Jack Harlow]

Hope so, too.

[John Caramonica]

Yeah. Getting back on this.

[Jack Harlow]

But I will say maybe all candy is good.

[John Caramonica]

Good. Yeah. Well, welcome to Popcast. So where are we? 8, 7, 8, 9, 10.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Where are you?

[Jack Harlow]

I want to raise the strawberry up.

[John Caramonica]

Damn.

[Jack Harlow]

To a 7, because this is a. This a 8. Yeah.

[John Caramonica]

I think this is. I think it's also an eight, I think. I don't love the finish of the chocolate, but I do think that the flavor is, like, quite elegant. So, like, good on them chocolate. Milkita. We all learned something today. Jack Harlow. Yeah. Great day. Great day on podcast.

[Jack Harlow]

I wish it. I wish it would never end. I really. I really feel so at ease with y'. All.

[John Caramonica]

Here's the thing. We. When we start live streaming, will you come back and do a live stream with us?

[Jack Harlow]

I'm down for whatever we shall.

[John Caramonica]

I'm not saying that sincere like, I'm being sincere. Like, I'm not. Like, this is not an offer we would make to everybody, but, like, if, like, we're gonna start live streaming, will you come back and sit with us for a live stream?

[Joe Coscarelli]

We're gonna hang and play each other immortal technique songs.

[Jack Harlow]

Sounds like I need to be there.

[John Caramonica]

Yes, Mand. Um, that is our show. Truly a special and hilarious day on podcast. Jack Harlow, thank you for being here.

[Jack Harlow]

Thanks for having me.

[John Caramonica]

A joy. Every episode ever [e-mail] podcast. We're on YouTube. Tap that. Subscribe, Opcast, TikTok, Instagram credits in link and bio. We will be back next week.

[Joe Coscarelli]

We're out.

[Jack Harlow]

I wish I could trade places with you Lean against We can make it so you maintain in a sense, talk to me till you're fully convinced. I wish I could trade places with that lamp post I like the way you lean on that damn post I could be that handrail that you put your hands on oh, oh, oh All I want to do is get some time alone with you the way you

[Smokey Bear PSA Voice]

want to, baby girl this wildfire season, Smokey Bear has a reminder for all of us.

[John Caramonica]

Only you can prevent wildfires.

[Smokey Bear PSA Voice]

For more than 80 years, he's taught us how to prevent unwanted wildfires through his tips, like using the Drown Stir Drown Feel method for putting out campfires. Every responsible action makes a difference. Learn wildfire prevention [e-mail] brought to you by the USDA Forest Service, your state forester, and the Ad Council.