Tyra Banks Is (Kinda) Sorry

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Cannonball with Wesley Morris
Host: Wesley Morris, The New York Times
Episode: Tyra Banks Is (Kinda) Sorry
Date: March 5, 2026
Guest: Mikayla Angela Davis - Journalist, Stylist, Editor
Main Theme: Accountability, harm, and legacy in "America’s Next Top Model," Tyra Banks’s role, and the new Netflix docuseries examining the show’s impact.

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Episode Overview

Wesley Morris and guest Mikayla Angela Davis explore the cultural phenomenon and the aftermath of "America’s Next Top Model" (ANTM), prompted by the new documentary "Reality Check: Inside America's Next Top Model." The episode interrogates ANTM’s treatment of contestants—especially Black and plus-size women—the allure and pitfalls of aspirational reality TV, and Tyra Banks’s ambiguous attempt at accountability. The discussion moves through nostalgia, critique, and questions of healing, atonement, and grace in a changing media landscape.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Cultural Moment of ANTM

• Nostalgia for 2000s TV, when channel surfing made ANTM accessible and “accidentally” influential (00:31).
• The show’s promise: "They're all gorgeous, but only one has what it takes.” How modeling dreams were made accessible to “regular” women (00:31–04:13).
• Davis sets the context: Honey Magazine, hip-hop's cultural expansion, and Tyra as the “around the way girl queen” (02:47).

Quote:
"Tyra was a top model for the people. She wasn’t Naomi Campbell...she was like the around the way girl queen."
— Mikayla Angela Davis, (02:47)

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2. Transformation and Representation

• Tyra’s show made the world of modeling seem attainable for everyday women, especially Black women who previously saw themselves excluded (04:14–06:59).
• The “Top Model” promise was sometimes misleading: winners often did not launch into high fashion but remained symbolic figures for audiences (05:52).

Quote:
"It’s called America’s Top Model. It’s not called America’s, see there, 11th model."
— Wesley Morris, (05:52)

• Takara Jones (“my favorite model in all seasons”) as a paradigm shift for plus-size and Black representation (07:13–09:39).
• Takara’s confidence as an antidote to America’s beauty fears (08:31–09:39).

Quote:
"Takara was giving you Meg [Thee Stallion] before Meg. I argue there would be no Meg without Takara."
— Mikayla Angela Davis, (08:04)

Quote:
"She gave us back ourselves."
— Mikayla Angela Davis, (09:39)

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3. The Show’s Problems and Harms

• Despite moments of empowerment, the show contained persistent problems: body shaming, mishandling of Black hair, and disturbing setups (10:01–11:14).

Quote:
"There is no redemption, as far as I’m concerned, to not have Black hair and makeup on a Tyra Banks show. Period."
— Mikayla Angela Davis, (11:14)

• Mention of on-set sexual assault (Shandi’s story, season 2) and the inadequacy of care for contestants (11:32–12:13).

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4. The Netflix Documentary & Reexamination

• The new docuseries hinges on Tyra Banks’s participation—is she finally taking accountability? (14:03–15:24)
• Mikayla’s daughter’s perspective: triggers over eating disorders, sexual assault, and the pain of Black girl contestants, with disappointment at Tyra's seeming lack of true accountability (15:24–16:13).

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5. Iconic Confrontation: The Tiffany Richardson Incident

• Breakdown of the "I was rooting for you!" Tyra Banks moment (16:48–19:31).
• Analysis of the emotional complexities—mothers, anger, projection, and “Black girl pain”—brought to the surface (18:59).

Quote:
"What? Tyra Banks, why are you talking about your mama yelling at you? That’s when I say that Black girl pain... both of their internal stuff came out in that moment."
— Mikayla Angela Davis, (18:59–19:31)

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6. Responsibility and The Show’s Legacy

• Critique: The docuseries doesn’t go far enough in unpacking harm or advancing conversation (20:10–20:28).
• Tyra’s on-camera response described as "lawyered-up," protecting the brand—not the contestants (20:33).

Quote:
"She felt that Tyra was protecting the show and not protecting the girls."
— Mikayla Angela Davis, (20:33)

• The treatment of other contestants (Shandi): The ethical responsibilities breached when contestants are exposed, intoxicated, or vulnerable (21:03–24:53).

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7. Accountability vs. Atonement

• The hosts grapple with what it means for someone (Tyra) to be accountable versus to truly atone (25:50–27:16).
• The need for accountability in healing—especially for Black women and society at large (27:16):

Quote:
"I think you need accountability for healing, and I’m very interested in Black girl healing..."
— Mikayla Angela Davis, (27:16)

• Mikayla reflects on watching ANTM with her daughter, wishing she’d unpacked the content with her then, but finding healing in retrospective conversations (28:44–29:17).

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8. Tyra Banks: Does She “Get It”? Granting Grace

• Mikayla argues Tyra remains in “mogul mode,” poised and unshaken; questions whether Tyra truly understands the harm or is responding out of brand protection (29:17–29:54).

Quote:
"I think she’s still in a mogul mode...I didn’t feel a sense of cracking open of anything."
— Mikayla Angela Davis, (29:23)

• Discussion of grace: recognizing Tyra’s unique, pioneering position, but acknowledging broader structures and other decision-makers behind the scenes (30:06).

Quote:
"She literally is the face of this. It takes a multitude of people to put on a show...if there’s one Black girl in front, you know there’s five men sitting on top of her head..."
— Mikayla Angela Davis, (30:06)

• Wesley and Mikayla conclude that Tyra deserves grace but has unfinished business in reckoning with her legacy, her influence, and the harm caused.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Representation:
  "Takara was giving, giving." — Mikayla Angela Davis (08:14)

• On Harm:
  "They didn’t know what to do...they shaved her head and left holes in it...this is Tyra Banks’s show...and you don’t have Black hairdressers?" — Mikayla Angela Davis (10:45–11:04)

• On The Tiffany Moment:
  "When my mama yells at me like this, it’s because she loves me..." — Tiffany Richardson (18:46–18:59)
  "I was rooting for you! We were all rooting for you. How dare you." — Tyra Banks (18:47–18:59)

• On Grace & Legacy:
  "Tyra’s still that girl...but she’s got some reckoning to do herself and it would be powerful if she would let us see that." — Mikayla Angela Davis (31:24–31:58)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Nostalgia, introduction to ANTM: 00:31–04:13
• Why Tyra mattered to Black/urban audiences: 02:47, 04:14
• The myth vs. reality of “top model” status: 05:52–06:59
• Plus-size representation, Takara Jones: 07:13–09:39
• Problematic aspects: body, race, care: 10:01–11:14
• Sexual assault, lack of care: 11:32–12:13, 21:03–24:53
• Entrance of documentary, Tyra’s accountability: 14:03–16:13
• The iconic Tiffany moment: 16:48–19:31
• What the docuseries misses: 20:10–20:28
• Distinguishing accountability and atonement: 25:50–27:16
• Conversations about Black girl healing: 27:16–29:17
• Does Tyra “get it”? Should we grant grace?: 29:17–32:00

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Tone and Style

• Conversational, reflective, inquisitive, and at times, pointed or emotionally raw.
• Mikayla and Wesley speak candidly about Black cultural history, reality TV’s power, and the personal stakes and pain involved.

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Conclusion

The episode uses "America’s Next Top Model" as a case study for larger questions about media, power, and atonement. Through personal reflections, cultural critique, and intergenerational dialogue, Morris and Davis reveal the costs—emotional, cultural, and social—of the "reality TV dream," and the unfinished business of reconciling who benefited and who was harmed. Tyra Banks’s attempted accountability is seen as incomplete, and the work of healing falls to viewers, critics, and the culture at large. The legacy of ANTM, Davis suggests, will be in the conversations and healing it sparks for generations of viewers.

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Recommended listening for anyone interested in pop culture, Black representation, the “reality TV” phenomenon, media accountability, and healing.

Transcript

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[Wesley Morris]

I'm Wesley Morris, and this is Cannonball. Today, they're all gorgeous, but only one has what it takes. In the old days of TV, and by old, I mean like the early 2000s, you were still channel surfing. You know, like, you take your remote and you'd flip around, and when the show you were watching was in the middle of a commercial, you'd maybe watch some other show that you found interesting. For a while, that was how I wound up at UPN watching America's Next Top Model between. Between Whoopi and, like, the West Wing. But many, many other people watched this show, believing their modeling dreams could come true. Now there's a popular new docu series about the show that needs us to know how bad America's Next Top Model treated those women. On the one hand, where is the news here? It's the fashion industry, and it's reality television. It's reality television about people trying to break into the fashion industry. We were watching for the inane challenges and the judgy scrutinizing of everything from teeth and hair texture to walks and jiggle. But then I watched this thing. It's called Reality Check Inside America's Next Top Model. And I realized the show's host and star, Tyra Banks, agreed to sit for an interview. And I'm like, that feels interesting to me at least right now in this national moment of denying responsibility for anything here. Here was a person maybe trying to practice accountability. Maybe. I wanted to bring all of this to Mikayla Angela Davis, who's been in the fashion and beauty industries for a long time as a journalist, as a stylist, as an editor for Essence, and my Subway Platform magazine stand purchase, Honey, where you can find out all about what was happening in Black Beauty. And I started by asking her to go back to 2003.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

When Top Model started 2003, I was the editor in chief of Honey magazine. And for those of you who do not know, Honey, oh, Honey, it was the magazine of notes for young, urban, hip women, right? So this is when hip hop had expanded beyond everyone's imagination. But the woman of Hip hop. And the woman in the urban, like, style aesthetic sphere hadn't quite centered herself, but she was coming, Right? So this show was pivotal, and so was Tyra, because Tyra was a top model for. For the people. She wasn't Naomi Campbell. Like, Tyra was never gonna be on the COVID of Vogue, but she was gonna be our girl. She was like the around the way girl queen.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Like, she was Will Smith's girl on Fresh Prince.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Yes. And Naomi was with Kate Moss and those girls in Paris. Tyra was tearing up New York. So it's fashion, like any industry, like art, like opera, has lots of little levels of classism.

[Wesley Morris]

Sure, sure, sure.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

And that's why her show was so revolutionary, because she brought it into America's living rooms.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, say more about that because, I mean, I am definitely aware of what this experience was like for some of the women in my life who were experiencing it. Yeah, it was kind of like the NBA for a certain class of women. Right. Like, it's gonna lift you out of

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

poverty, but you're not gonna make it. Yeah, just like the NBA. That is a great analogy, because just like a basketball player, there are some physical DNA that you have to have in order to make it to that level. And that's why her show was so crazy, because she made people think that that cute girl that you saw in church every day or that was at school, you know, everyone had a hot girl. Anne Philpott was the hot girl in my elementary school. And it was like, you saw her show and you could imagine the Anne Philpotts of the world having a shot. The thing is, the way that I was watching it, I knew the Anne Philpotts after that show were never going to have a career in modeling. And listen, I don't want to. I don't want to be in that sort of snobby space because there are careers in modeling that you can have that aren't high end, that aren't New York, that you can go back to your town, do all the fashion shows for all the malls.

[Wesley Morris]

But Mikayla is called America's top model. It's not called America's. See there 11th model.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Therein lies our grapple, or one of them. There are many little grappling piles with the show, but it is called that, just like it's called American Idol. Are they our idols? No, but you have to give it the gravitas. And so top model Tyra was arguably a top model. She just wasn't an elite top model. Trust and Believe she was a hero and a queen like the girls on the street. The girls that matter. The regular girls loved her and Tyra because Tyra looked like she saw them. So you got this black girl creating and leading a show in the industry that we've been shut out of for so long. That's a very powerful thing.

[Wesley Morris]

But I also think that what you're talking about is a huge element on the show. You know, one of the sort of highlights of the show is these body types that you wouldn't typically expect to see on a Runway.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

That's right.

[Wesley Morris]

I'm thinking specifically of Takara Jones from season three.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

My favorite.

[Tiffany Richardson]

Hi, I'm here. I'm here. I'm Takara. I'm big, black, beautiful, and loving it. What I want to encourage full figure women to appreciate their body and to know that they're beautiful and that skinny women are evil.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Takara was my favorite model in all seasons.

[Wesley Morris]

Really?

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

All of them.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, we should say it's 24 seasons of this thing. Listen, she's number one for you.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Yes.

[Alexa Advertisement Voice]

Okay.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Takara. I mean, I love Eva. I love Willie. But here's what Takara did. She gave you the body Ody. And she was a black girl. She was in the tradition of, like, a Pearl Bailey.

[Wesley Morris]

And then. Oh, yes. She was physically.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Physically and then.

[Wesley Morris]

And had the attitude.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Yes. That's not like she's literally in that tradition. And she was giving you meg before. Meg thee stallion. I argue there would be no Meg without Takara.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Takara was giving, giving.

[Wesley Morris]

Like, look, can we just watch something with Takara?

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Can we please?

[Wesley Morris]

They're at this pool party. Everybody's drunk on Tyra and probably a little bit drunk. Here's to Kara.

[Tiffany Richardson]

Get in that water. They're two plus size models, and we were talking about our boob sizes. We're like, oh, we're the same boob size. You know, Mary, I don't believe that she's really plus size. I think she's like 160. You know, if you're looking for a real woman with something juicy, then here I am. I'm 180 pounds, and I'm carrying it well, and I'm loving it. You know, she's beautiful in her own right. In her own right. And I'm me. They shouldn't be scared.

[Alexa Advertisement Voice]

Don't be scared.

[Tiffany Richardson]

Scared America.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

See?

[Wesley Morris]

Which is a meaningful thing to say, right?

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

What does Dakara not want America to be scared of?

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Of itself.

[Tiffany Richardson]

Mm.

[Alexa Advertisement Voice]

Ooh.

[Wesley Morris]

Say more about that.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

She said to camera, I weigh 180 pounds. Models are weighing 114 pounds. And she said unapologetically, I weigh 180 pounds. Don't be afraid. And most of America, you go to the grocery store. Most women weigh 180 pounds and up.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes, yes.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

So she gave us back ourselves.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, I mean, this kind of brings us to, like, you know, some of the real shit, right?

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, because do you remember watching this and thinking, you know, for as much as I watched it and found it utopic in some ways, every episode had what I would describe as a problem.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Oh, yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And I'm wondering if, like, how did you experience or did you find parts of it problematic in the watching in 2003, 2006, 2009?

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Oh, most definitely. There were a couple of episodes that were just remarkably. There was a lack of care in certain places that were so profound. One of them, when they had a black model and they clipped her hair.

[Shandi]

It's fine for now.

[Wesley Morris]

It was really just frustrating. The people did not have the correct clippers. Everybody basically sat and they didn't know what to do. 3 Leave a little tough. I didn't even like the way the woman was cutting my hand, the way they were having conversations in front of me.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Should we write her name in there? Yeah. They shaved her head and left holes in it. This is Tyra Banks show. And you know that there are several black models and you don't have black hairdressers. Like, go get mad on C.J. walker. Like, I don't care what year this is.

[Wesley Morris]

Dig her up.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Go get somebody with a flat iron and some ovens.

[Wesley Morris]

Dig Madam C.J. up.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

There is no redemption, as far as I'm concerned, to not have black hair and makeup on a Tyra Banks show, period. The end. So there's. That's one level of care.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, poor Ebony with the hair clipping. I mean, what was that? Season one.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Yeah. But also shandy. Like, I mean, we had sexual assault on camera.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. I want to hold on that for a second. I actually, like. I think we should take a break.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Okay.

[Shandi]

And.

[Wesley Morris]

Because when we come back, I actually. You know, there's this documentary about America's Next Top Model.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

And it is trying to interrogate some of the things we've just been talking about with respect to, you know, the problems of the show. So we're gonna take a break. When we come back, I wanna talk about this show.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Okay.

[Wesley Morris]

And some really deep stuff that came up for me while I watched it.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Indeed.

[Wesley Morris]

All right. We'll be Right back,

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[AG Sulzberger]

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[Wesley Morris]

Okay, we're back talking to Mikayla Angela Davis, the one and only. We're talking about America's Next Top Model, Tyra Banks. And now, Reality Check. Inside America's Next Top Model. This three episode series that purports that really, really wants to get inside all of the problems of the making of America's Next Top Model. I will tell you up front, I did, I did not find this. I didn't go into this being interested in anything that this show was gonna find that was new because I have a very clear memory of people, you know, all that TV people were discovering during the pandemic. I've never seen this show. Never seen this show. Everything was being reinspected for harm, hazard, neglect, exploitation, deviancy. Um, and somebody thought, and then many people thought to put this show under the microscope. So I mean, I actually thought we'd kind of done this work. But then I saw the documentary and like I said earlier, I mean the key here is that they're going back through all of this. It's just that Tyra is here for it.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

This is such a revelation, Wesley. I watched it with my Very millennial daughter. And to see it through her eyes. She was so riveted and, dare I say, triggered. Like, how did people let this happen to these young girls? And she saw herself in that because she was very familiar with fashion. She'd been backstage. She's done all the things. This is a new world to her. I mean, she's met Tyra. She knew this. But she was so triggered from eating disorder, kind of triggering to the sexual assault. And the black girl pain was what really got her. And she thought Tyra took no accountability.

[Wesley Morris]

Interesting. You know, it's interesting because I think there are people who are looking for Tyra to be responsible for, like, you know, 35 moments. You know, like, is she gonna answer for this? Is she gonna answer for this? But, like, the thing that was, I think, the apotheosis of a mode of Tyra Banks in the world of the show that I think people seem especially interested in and the show itself focuses on in terms of her behavior is a moment that happens with a contestant named Tiffany.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Tiffany Richardson.

[Tiffany Richardson]

What's up? I just wanna tell you I'm happy to be here. I know I may seem a little ghetto.

[Tyra Banks]

Why do you wanna be a model?

[Tiffany Richardson]

Everybody think that I'm just. And I am. But, you know, I wanna show people that just because I've done all kind of things, you know, I could be somebody. I'm not just living for myself.

[Wesley Morris]

So I think I would like to think about this moment that happens between Tyra and Tiffany in season four because they bring her back. She's a cast member twice.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Yes. Yep. She was a fan favorite. She was that round the way girl that you knew.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, I think Tyra makes some identification with this person.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Yes. Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

And it's not maternal. It's something deeper. It's something deeper. And so Tyra and the judges have had enough. They need to eliminate Tiffany. Are you okay to watch it?

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Oh, it's television history, of course. Okay.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay, let's go back to television history.

[Tyra Banks]

Tiffany, I'm extremely disappointed in you. This is a joke to you. You've been through anger management. You've been through your grandmother getting her lights turned off to buy you a swimsuit for this competition. And you go over there and you joking, you laugh.

[Tiffany Richardson]

Looks can be deceiving. I'm hurt. I am. But I'm sick of crying about stuff that I cannot change. I'm sick of being disappointed. I'm sick of all of it.

[Wesley Morris]

Tiffany is in a. Is in a negligee.

[Tyra Banks]

Do you know that you had a Possibility to win. Do you know that all of America is rooting for you? When I see this beautiful girl who made some mistakes in the season before and didn't make it, and then we, you know, work to get her here, you come in here and look at

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

that and say, I can't.

[Wesley Morris]

Tiffany turns away and looks like I

[Tiffany Richardson]

don't have a bad attitude. Maybe I am angry inside. I've been through stuff, so I'm angry, yes, but this is not. Be quiet. Be quiet. I have never in my life yelled

[Tyra Banks]

at a girl like this.

[Tiffany Richardson]

When my mother yells at this, it's because she loves me. I was rooting for you. We were all rooting for you. How dare you.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

What was profound for me that I heard while watching Reality Check that I didn't clock the first time I saw this? She says, wesley, when my mama yells at me like this, it's because she loves me. What? Tyra Banks, why are you talking about your mama yelling at you? Yep, that's when. That's when I say that black girl pain. Like, both of their internal stuff came out in that moment, and I was just like, wait, we don't do this in front of these people.

[Wesley Morris]

Nope. When they were done shooting, production staff literally just, like, took Tyra off set.

[Tyra Banks]

I went too far. You know, I lost. Was probably bigger than her. It was family, friends, society, black girls, all the challenges that we have. So many people saying that we're not good enough. I think all that was in that moment. That's some black girl stuff that goes real deep inside of me. But I knew I went too far.

[Wesley Morris]

All I know is the next week, we had all the lawyers on set. By the way, this completely irresponsible piece of crap documentary does not go far enough. Here, they just stop.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

I know. And you're right in the way that you're. The way that you're critiquing. Also, the way the docu series is framed or not framed, it just leaves the hurt out there shaken. It doesn't move us forward. It doesn't. She unpacks it a little bit when she talked about, you know, that's some black girl pain.

[Wesley Morris]

But, well, what do you think of the explanation? Like, what do you think she.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

I mean, I think she said as much as she could. Again, I agree with my daughter Eleni. I think she was talking in a very careful manner. She felt that Tyra was speaking as if lawyers told her what to say and what not to say. She felt that Tyra was speaking as an executive producer. Again, that's trying to protect a brand. She felt that Tyra was protecting the show and not protecting the girls again, I mean.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay, so what. I mean, is there a moment in this show I feel like there's another side to this show, Right? Yeah, there's a moment from what I believe is season two. There's a contestant named Shandi.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And she's just like a kind of really your classic, what I would call a Becky and not a Beyonce Becky, but like a Real World season one Becky where, you know, the lights are so bright, the world is so big, and am I gonna make it? I just don't know.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

But I'm out of the house, Right.

[Wesley Morris]

And she goes and is having a great night. There's a pool party, and she gets very drunk, and they're in a hot tub, basically. It's not a pool. And there are some men in the pool, young men. And she wakes up the next morning in bed, remembering only that she might have gone to the bed with this man. Talk to me about, I mean, the responsibility of the show here and what it means to put these people in this grinder.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Yeah. Grindr is such a good word. And Shandi. Shandi is the heartbreak of this entire enterprise, because not only did she have, like, I'm busted out of Walmart going to New York, I would also say that she was the one model that I think could have even made it to high fashion because she was quirky. Right. Shandi could have really made it. And so there was that also that level of looking at her as someone that had real potential to get into this industry, to make it. And then you see this orchestrated catastrophe where the girls were working all day. She was saying she hasn't eaten. They bring in the props, these men that were props earlier that were. They were in a photo shoot. Yes. They bring them in. They have tons of wine. She's clearly moving towards a blackout. She's this big and drank two bottles of wine, no food. She's in a precarious state, and the set is full of other adults, like, outside of our, you know, breaking the third wall or whatever you would call it in reality. And they're watching this happen, and they went to the shower and filmed her having sex when she was clearly not conscious. She was in a blackout.

[Wesley Morris]

All right, So I think we should. I mean, should we watch?

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

I mean, do you want to watch?

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, because what we'll see is adult Shaundi sort of talking about her memory of this.

[Shandi]

It was just a sound guy and the guy filming, and Afterwards, I'm just, like, laying on the floor in a fetal position, just crying. And they just get up to leave, and they both came up to me and they said, we're really, really sorry that we had to film that. They just knew that, like, this isn't right. Like, why are we filming this?

[Tyra Banks]

I'm not head of story. That's Ken Mock. But I did become a master editor. It's important for people to know that we didn't put everything on tv.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, what.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Like, wait, I'm sorry.

[Wesley Morris]

Talk to me about Tyra becoming a master editor because. Because through what? What is she.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

What does that even mean? What does that mean? You cut out the stuff that would have put you in jail? Like, I don't know.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, I mean, to that end, I mean, I was torn about whether to even invoke this kind of thinking in the first place. But I think that one of this is a very popular show right now on Netflix.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Yep.

[Wesley Morris]

And I think that, for me, the thing that I found satisfying about it, as a person who understands the world of America's Next Top Model and is interested in what apology looks like and what atonement looks like, I am really fascinated by anybody trying to be accountable right now in any way.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Okay.

[Wesley Morris]

I feel like this show, for as bad as it is, is trying. I don't even know what the show's trying to do.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

I don't either. I was waiting for you to finish

[Wesley Morris]

that sentence, because I'm like, what, Shalik?

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Tell me, what is this trying to do?

[Wesley Morris]

The show is a mess, but I think for some people, too, I think for all of us, I think what we are looking for in this moment of so much just kind of braggadocious, like, authority run amok, Right? Like, not even authority, but just power run amok. For somebody to have power or who had power over people to atone, reconcile with the power they had and how they used it on them. And I just feel like anytime you get one of these nonfiction entities that comes along and tries to gather everybody to think about their behavior, I am always curious to see if anybody practices atonement. And is atonement accountability. Do you need accountability to achieve atonement? I mean, obviously you do, but accountability and atonement, to me, are not the same thing. And I'm curious about what you think is happening here.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

I think you need accountability for healing, and I'm very interested in black girl healing and in the world healing. And so I don't. I think there has to be some accountability in order for us to heal and to heal these girls and to make it better for the girls that are coming. Right. But reconciliation and atonement. Atonement is a different thing. And atonement, I think, is so individual. Like, you have to. You have to want that on a spiritual level, I would argue. But I do think we need to heal as a society and how we look and treat young women like that's glaring in this moment. And leave it to a black girl to give us a pop culture Runway, for lack of better words, to talk about it, because people are talking about this like you and I were talking about this, you know, so I'm glad you. You kind of put us there, because I have some gratitude about. I mean, my daughter and I have had wonderful conversations about it. I don't know if wonderful is the right word, but, like, deep and interesting conversations as a result.

[Wesley Morris]

Healthful. Salubri.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Yes. And I. And again, I hope some. Some healing has come through, because also, I apologize to her because I didn't unpack these episodes. Watching with her when she was 13. We didn't do that. We kiki'd. So we've been able to go back and do some healing. And I'm hoping that that happened with all the watch parties and all the girls that watched it and maybe ate a nacho instead of saying, that happened to me too.

[Wesley Morris]

Do you think Tyra gets it? Do you think watching this film that she understands what we are talking about?

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

I don't think so. I don't think so because I felt. And Tyra looked. She looked beautiful. I think she's still in a mogul mode. I'm gonna do another season. I'm fierce. She was very composed. I didn't feel a sense of cracking open of anything. But I don't know. I mean, I don't know. And I don't even know what I want her to do.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, this is a great. I mean, I like that you said that. Do we grant Tyra Banks grace? And what is the nature of the grace we grant her?

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Yes, we grant her grace because that's what we do. But also, she literally is the face of this. And, you know, it takes a multitude of people to put on a show. And if there's one black girl in front, you know, there's five men sitting on top of her head. Right. That are getting a bigger paycheck but are farther away from the cameras. And so I have no idea what, again, what legal told her, what the producers told her, like, who was literally pulling the string. I Do feel like she was hands on. But hers weren't the only hands. And so I think there's always room for grace. I just, I'm very interested to see what. What she's doing on the other side of this with all this conversation. And is she hearing it or listening or is she in Australia planning season 25 with more blinders on? I don't know. But she's. You know what? Tyra's still that girl. She's a sister. She did something. I recall being at a Todd Alton fashion show and Tyra Banks comes down the Runway and we stand up and scream. Like at church. Nobody. We didn't do that. You were supposed to be demurred. Fashion Joe, you act like Anna Wintour. You keep it tight. Tyra made you scream. And we're going to remember that like she no one. You can't take that away. But she's got some reckoning to do herself and it would be powerful if she would let us see that. If she does it, if her soul wants to do that.

[Wesley Morris]

I just gotta chill.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

So I don't know if we're asking too much from Reality Check to give us a to check us to really give us a real reality check. And I don't know if the show completely lived up to that name or its title. You don't know this show and particularly Tyra's positioning. I'm still not clear. I'm still not clear what she did. I'm still not clear what I want from her. I'm not clear what I want from the show. I do know and what I'm grateful for, when I'll say it again, is that it had my daughter and I have some very profound conversations. A little black girl healing.

[Wesley Morris]

Amen. Mikayl. Angela Davis. Thank you. It was an honor mine.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

It was a pleasure. It was fun.

[Wesley Morris]

It was fun. All right. I will talk to you soon.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

I hope so.

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[Mikayla Angela Davis]

I can finally play with other people.

[Wesley Morris]

I'm pretty competitive. It's fun to beat friends and co workers. I have a J for 10 points.

[AG Sulzberger]

I'm guessing Tenga is not a word.

[Alexa Advertisement Voice]

Let's see.

[Wesley Morris]

Tenga is a word. Oh.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

As an English, as a second language speaker, I like to learn new words.

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[Wesley Morris]

Hey, everybody, we're back. The Oscars are in less than two weeks and Oscar is 98 years old. 98. And I just want to say I am proud of you, Oscar, because you're 98, but you still want to learn some new stuff because this year there's a new Oscar. There's an Academy Award now for best achievement in casting. This means that the casting director, the person whose job it is to staff this movie before the camera with people, is gonna get an Academy Award. And I have to tell you, this is my new instant favorite category. I didn't even know I wanted it until they started talking about doing it. Your nominees. Marty Supreme Hamnet, One Battle after Another, Sinners and the Secret Agent. These people, some of them are goats. Like, I mean, Francine Mazler, who did Sinners. This woman has cast so many movies. Reality Bites, I think, is her first movie. But let's just think about what the job really is. The job is essentially finding the right people for the right movie, for the right moment in a movie. And what I love about it is it involves the thing that you went to the movies to see, which is maybe famous people. But then some of these movies have a lot of other people in them who are just really interesting. Like if you look at the Secret Agent, for instance, this is the movie set during the 1970s, during Brazil's military dictatorship. It's about a guy on the run. Wagner Moore is the star. He is well known in Brazil. But there are many, many other people in this movie who have important work to do who nobody's seen before except their families. There's a woman in this movie named Tanya Maria. She is wonderful. I mean, last I heard, she was making rugs. And she's still doing that work. But in this movie, she is a star. Is she sticking around? I hope so, because she's definitely the most interesting person I have seen in a movie in like a hundred years. Good casting. My favorite of these five nominees, and I don't say this lightly because they're all really well cast, but, I mean, it's one battle after another. I need you, brother. Sensei.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Sensei. Sensei, please.

[James Raiderman]

Courage, boss.

[Wesley Morris]

This is just like a master class in casting. Cause you basically have all the people at the top of the ladder. The people you know by name. Leonardo DiCaprio, Benicio del Toro to lots of us. Teyana Taylor, Regina Hall, Sean Penn. You're going probably for those people. But when you get there, what else are you seeing? Whoa, who's this? Who's that? I mean, who is that? First of all, there's a scene where some kids go to pick up Chase Infinity, who plays Leonardo DiCaprio's daughter. Her name's Willa. There's a kid who gets out of the car. They're in the woods somewhere. The house is. Get to the door. What's up, homie? DiCaprio comes out and starts full blasting DiCaprio ing at him. And the kid's just like, hey, how's it going? You cool? Yeah, I was just here to pick.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Yeah, yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

You can do your worst to me, Mr. DiCaprio. It doesn't bother me. I'm still taking your daughter to this dance. And DiCaprio's like that. I'll tell you something. Whatever you do to her, I'm doing that exact same thing to your entire fucking family. I'm not fucking around. Wait, what? And the kid's like, are you done? I'm getting in the car. And there's just something about how just unbothered he is by this. By this, like, great actor going ham on him. Your dad's agro, bro.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

He's a fucking paranoid.

[Wesley Morris]

That's just really smart casting. And then later, I mean, it's actually very moving. There's a sequence where Willa has to leave the dance that they've just gone to because Sean Penn is after her. I'm just gonna be very simplistic here. She's gone.

[AG Sulzberger]

Sit down.

[Wesley Morris]

The military now is trying to question these kids to find out where she went and what they know.

[James Raiderman]

What's your name?

[Wesley Morris]

Bluto.

[James Raiderman]

Bluto.

[Wesley Morris]

And it's just this great montage of the interviews that this one military guy conducts.

[James Raiderman]

We have a few questions we want to ask you. Is that all right with you?

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Sure.

[James Raiderman]

You're shaking. Are you okay?

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

I'm fine.

[James Raiderman]

You nervous?

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Little bit.

[James Raiderman]

Do you need anything?

[Wesley Morris]

My favorite thing about this moment is.

[James Raiderman]

What's her number?

[Tiffany Richardson]

She doesn't have a phone.

[Wesley Morris]

They're so enjoying the being interrogated part.

[James Raiderman]

Do I look like your parent?

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Kind of.

[James Raiderman]

Give me the fucking number.

[Wesley Morris]

And it's just really funny. And then stressful. And then, like, my eyes welled up because at some point the pressure of this interrogation situation gets to one of the kids. I don't have her phone number.

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Up.

[James Raiderman]

Put your hands behind her back.

[Wesley Morris]

They're a non binary name is Bobo. And I have it.

[James Raiderman]

You have it now?

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

Ugh.

[James Raiderman]

What is it?

[Wesley Morris]

It just really gets me every time I watch this movie. And the guy doing the interrogating is also great.

[James Raiderman]

I thought you took AP common sense. Sit the fuck down.

[Wesley Morris]

His name is James Raiderman. I think he was in Homeland Security. I mean, it's just really smart casting. It's so much better to have a person who was basically doing this kind of work, if you know what I mean, in real life, doing it over here in the movies, where it just brings a kind of heightened reality to already stressful circumstances. I mean, some of this job is detective work. It's research. It's kind of knowing who to ask, it's knowing where to look. And you're rewarding. Having a human eye, I guess, is maybe the way to put it. Like you read a script or talk to a director and they can tell you what they want. And then you have to know what is your heart telling you about this person? Do you know where to look? And do you know what parts of yourself as the casting agent have to be open to even receiving or believing that these people can do this work? I don't know. This is the magic of the movies and it's the magic of this one job. So I am looking forward to sitting on my sofa and rooting. Who am I gonna root for? I want them all to win. I think Francine Masler, who did something, is probably gonna win because she's been around for a long time, but so do they. They could say the same about Nina Gold, probably. Who did Hamnet?

[Mikayla Angela Davis]

I don't know.

[Wesley Morris]

But, you know, I just. I'm just glad this category exists now. And it's a whole other zone of people to root for, because you're now not only rooting for your favorite actor, you're rooting for your favorite bunch of actors. And that just feels. I don't know, I'm all for it. That's our show. Also, before we go, I just want to say Mikayla Angela Davis has a new book out. It's called Tenderheaded. It's her first memoir. It is wonderful. Help yourself. This episode of Cannonball was produced by Janelle Anderson, Elissa Dudley, John White and Austin Mitchell. It was edited by Lisa Tobin. Daniel Ramirez engineered this episode. It was recorded by Maddy Masiello, Kyle Grandillo and Nick Pittman. Dan Powell and Diane Wong did our original music. Our theme music is by Justin Ellington. Bobby Doherty took the photo for our show art. And our video team is Brooke Minters and Felice Leon. This episode was filmed by Alfredo Keyarappa and and Danieli Sarti. It was edited by Jeremy Rocklin, Amy Marino and Pat Guenther. We're here on YouTube. We're always on YouTube. We're never leaving YouTube. Don't you try and make us. Next week this pee don't pop for you. Thanks for listening, everybody.