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Thank you for listening to this episode's ads. By supporting our sponsors, you support casefile to continue to deliver quality content. Andy Gill and Surin Chandranet quickly rose from persons of interest to suspects and remained in custody due to their respective visa and drug charges. The results of the DNA tests were expected on Saturday, August 19, nine days into the investigation. But when that highly anticipated day came, the police announced there had been an unexpected delay. During an unrelated press Conference, a 34 year old man named Narong Perjana Tamrongpong walked into the police station wanting to file a complaint. Narong was a member of the Karan Hill tribe, an ethnic minority in northern Thailand. He worked full time as a tour guide and had guided the three day trek through the Maychem district that Kirsty Jones had been a part of in the days before her death. While Narong remembered Kirstie, she had been just one of his many clients and the two hadn't spent any one on one time together or had any notable interactions. According to Nerong's official complaint, he'd been walking down the road when a van suddenly pulled up next to him and a handful of men jumped out. They grabbed Nerong and threw him face first into the back of their van, blindfolding him and forcing him to take a sip of an unknown substance. The next thing Nerong remembered was waking up in what looked like a cheap motel room. He was surrounded by men in plain clothes who he assumed to be police officers. The men urged Ne Wrong to confess to Kirsty Jones murder. They reasoned that he was a second class citizen and should help his country by helping to close the case, which had already gone on too long. The men said that a confession would get him a prison sentence. Refusing to confess would result in an execution. Ne Wrong claimed that over several hours, the men stripped him naked, beat him and stood on his chest and stomach. While ordering him to confess, they plucked and burned off some of his pubic hair. One of the men then ordered Nerong to masturbate to the point of ejaculation. When he refused to do so, the man attempted to do it for him, only giving up when it was obvious he wasn't going to get the desired outcome. The men allegedly told Nerong that if his DNA didn't match the sample found at the scene of Kirsty's murder, they would make it match. Nerong was terrified. Still, he refused to confess, telling himself that God would protect him as he'd done nothing wrong. Eventually, Narong passed out, and when he came to, he was in a police station in the outskirts of Chiang Mai with no idea of how he got there. Without explanation, he was free to leave. Narong was a member of the Chiang Mai Guide Association, a group that supports licensed tour guides in Chiang Mai. He went straight to the headquarters and told them what had happened. Fearing that Nerong could be framed and used as a scapegoat, an employee of the association encouraged him to take his story to the media. Before filing a complaint with the police, Nerong arranged to speak to local journalist Pim Kamasinki, who had been covering the Jones case from the outset, and Andrew Drummond, an independent British journalist living in Thailand. Telling them about his ordeal. He pulled up his shirt, revealing a badly bruised torso. His story was published by the international and Thai media, prompting the Chiang Mai Guide association to protest in the streets. The police denied having any knowledge of the attack on the Rong Pojana Tamrongpong. They claimed whoever had kidnapped him had been part of a rogue unit and said that Nerong's claims would be investigated fairly. The truth about who was behind the kidnapping was never revealed. But as Pim Kamasinki later wrote, like many ethnic minorities in Thailand who have been used as police and society's scapegoats, Nerong knew he was in an extremely dangerous situation. The fact is, he is lucky to have escaped without a forced signed confession, let alone his life. Regardless of who was behind the attack, Ne Wrong's story added yet another source of humiliation for the Chiang Mai police as they entered day 10 of the investigation with no arrest. When the results of the DNA tests were finally in, police were hopeful that it would put an end to the media circus once and for all. But the results of the test were not what anyone was expecting. The DNA found on Kirstie's body didn't match any of the Erie guest house residents or its owner. It also didn't belong to a Farong. The DNA proved without doubt that Kirsty's killer had been a Southeast Asian male. Regardless, the police remained convinced that a foreigner had been involved in the crime. They told the press that despite the Aree's foreign clientele being cleared by DNA, they weren't ruling out the possibility that one of them could have been complicit or acted as an accomplice in Kirstie's murder. A fresh set of blood tests and hair samples were taken from each of the Erie residents for a second set of testing. Even though the Aree's manager, Suren Champranet's DNA didn't match that found on Kirstie, he became the prime suspect. Police detained three of his Thai associates, as well as one of his French friends, and obtained a DNA sample from each of them. They also called for any Tuk Tuk drivers who may have given Kirsty a ride home from the markets on the night of her murder to come forward. The senior investigating officer continued to come under criticism after he made some bizarre comments in the press about the extent of Kirstie's injuries, leading him to believe that her killer had been well endowed. He also said that Surin Champronette had an unusually large penis because he'd injected it with olive oil to increase its size. Eyes fed up by the lack of progress and the media backlash his controversial statements were attracting, the senior investigating officer was removed from what the international press had scathingly dubbed a shambolic investigation. A reward of 30,000 Thai baht, the equivalent of roughly 500 British pounds at the time, was offered to anyone who had information that could solve the case. While not a significant amount by UK standards, the average monthly wage for a worker in Chiang mai was around 8,000 baht, or 130 pounds, giving any locals who had information an attractive incentive to come forward. While the police waited for the results of the second lot of DNA tests, they maintained that the case wasn't a difficult one to solve and it wouldn't be long before they'd detained those responsible. Meanwhile, Kirsty Jones body was flown back to Wales, where over 800 mourners gathered at a church near her family's farm to attend her funeral. Among them were the parents of other backpackers who had died while travelling overseas. While it was a hugely painful day for Kirstie's parents, they felt so proud of their daughter that so many people from all walks of of life had taken the time to pay their respects to her. After the service, they had a family friend read a statement on their behalf which said the circumstances of Kirsty's death make coming to terms with her loss all the more difficult. And we hope and pray for a swift conclusion to the investigation in Thailand. Kirsty was a wonderful daughter and we miss her terribly, but she loved to travel and she made friends all over the world. Her zest for life and her love will always live with us. Kirstie's murder raised hot debate over the dangers of women travelling alone and called into question the overall Safety of Thailand as a tourist destination British journalist Imogen Tilden had travelled solo through Thailand at a similar age to Kirstie and remembered the trip fondly. She wrote an article for the Guardian arguing that Kirstie's tragic death shouldn't deter other young women from visiting the country, stating that while it was understandable that people would feel cautious, this was an isolated, tragic incident and it didn't mean that an evil murderer was now lurking in every hostel preying on young women. Imogen went on to explain, an integral part of the delight of being in Southeast Asia is that the hostels don't have alarms and infrared security systems, nor front doors with British Standard five bolt locks. Travellers and locals alike are relaxed and friendly and there is nothing of the barely suppressed aggression that seems to lurk in so many British cities. In fact, I feel more threatened on my nightly walk home from the tube in South London. Imogen said the experience of travelling alone was one of the best things she'd ever done, as it gave her an enormous amount of confidence and courage. I urge every woman to try it themselves and not succumb to what seems essentially a misogynist hysteria, she wrote. If a young man had been found murdered, there would be no comment on his travelling companions or lack of them. Back in Chiang Mai, the police were called to the Aree guesthouse after Surin Champernet's girlfriend, Panteeper, threatened to take her own life unless Surin was released from custody. Panteepa had been insistent that Suren had nothing to do with Kirsty's death. She claimed that he'd injured his back several years earlier and it impacted his ability to have sex. With Soren in jail and the are empty of guests and massage students, Pantipa was struggling. She already suffered from the detrimental effects of a brain injury she'd sustained years prior to and now she had no income and no partner. She wasn't even allowed to visit Surin in jail. Her friends had also deserted her in a bid to distance themselves from the case and the prying reporters. By the time police arrived at the re, Pantipa had locked herself in her room and was crying hysterically through the door. She said she couldn't take it anymore. Suddenly all the lights went off in the building. Police broke down the door and found Pantipa hanging by the neck from a nylon rope. She was released and rushed to hospital, where she made a quick recovery. A few days later, Pantipa spoke to journalist Pim Khamasinki about the hardships she'd faced in the wake of Kirsty's death. It would be nice if people cared for the living as much as they do for the dead, she said. On Thursday, August 31, the results of the second set of DNA tests were in. Again, there were no matches. For the first time since the investigation commenced 21 days earlier, the police were forced to admit that the case might not be as easy to solve as they initially thought. One by one, each of the Erie suspects were officially ruled out and given their passports back. All except manager Suren Champranet. Even though his DNA didn't match that found on Kirstie's body, police theorised that he could have been complicit in the crime, perhaps working in cahoots with members of a foreign mafia gang that had reportedly been operating out of the night market. It then came another highly controversial theory. According to the Chiang Mai police, it was possible that whoever had raped Kirstie had purchased semen from someone else and planted it at the scene to detract attention from themself. Apparently, this was something they'd seen done before. As the Chief of Police explained on the documentary Murder in paradise, investigators tested this theory by going out and seeing if it was possible to buy semen. He confirmed it was available. There are people that will sell sperm. Maybe a labourer or someone who needed cash fast, or a prostitute who had saved some from a previous client. Rumours quickly began circulating that on the night of Kirstie's murder, a foreign man had paid a tuk tuk driver for his semen. The press quickly picked up on the story and newspapers ran wild with outrageous claims. Journalists Pim Khamasinki and Andrew Drummond visited the professor of forensic medicine who had been working on Kirstie's case and asked him if the planted semen theory was plausible. The professor immediately dismissed the idea. He explained that the deep penetration of the offender's DNA confirmed without a doubt that whoever had raped Kirstie had also killed her. According to the professor, the evidence also indicated that only one person had been involved in the crime, and that person had undoubtedly been an Asian man. With suspicion still on Suren Champronet, five weeks into the investigation, he came forward with a confession. On the night of Kirsty's murder, Soren claimed that he'd seen a light on in her room. Through twitching curtains, he caught a glimpse of a man's legs and face. He thought he recognised the man. But it wasn't until Soren saw him leave the room that he knew. For sure it was the Erie guesthouse owner, Andy Gill. Police weren't sure what to make of Suren's claims as he had a reputation for running his mouth. But it gained credibility when Suren's girlfriend Panteeper began supporting his story. A month into the investigation, Andy Gill was arrested and charged with conspiracy to rape and murder Kirsty Jones. It was the first time such a charge had ever been made under Thai law. But given that none of Andy's DNA was found on Kirstie's body, police didn't have enough evidence for an outright murder charge. Instead, they theorised that Andy could have acted with a Thai accomplice. Alternatively, they considered whether Andie could have watched Kirstie have sex with another man and then slipped into her room and tried to make a move on her himself. When she resisted his advances, he launched a violent attack and strangled her to death. Andy Gill was transported to a prison in Bangkok. Under Thai law, Police had just 60 days to find his alleged co conspirator. After that, they either had to commit him to trial or let him go. Regardless of this looming deadline, a spokesperson for the Chiang Mai police said, we are confident we are on the right track. There is no mystery anymore. The stakes were high for Andy Gill if the charges against him proceeded to trial. A guilty verdict could result in a possible death sentence. With the wheels of justice turning very slowly in Thailand, it could mean years in one of Bangkok's notoriously harsh prisons before the trial even went ahead. From behind bars, Andy Gill vehemently denied having anything to do with Kirstie's rape or murder and remained steadfast that the only reason he'd fled after finding her body was that he panicked about his expired visa. Those who knew Andy were shocked to discover that he'd been accused of the crime. A friend of Andy's told the press, this is unbelievable. There is no way Andy did this. This whole investigation has been a joke. I know Andy well and he is just not capable of doing it. As the 60 day deadline loomed, the police failed to uncover any physical evidence to place Andy G or an alleged co conspirator at the scene of Kirstie's murder. Then on Thursday November 30, 12 days before the deadline, the charges against Andy were suddenly dropped and he was released from prison. The acting district attorney explained that the testimony provided by Surin Champranet and his girlfriend Panteeper couldn't be relied on. But journalist Andrew Drummond had been secretly following correspondence sent between Andy Gill and his father in the south of France. He discovered that while Andy had been in prison, his father had sent four payments through to Andy's ex wife in chiang Mai, totalling £14,000. One fax from Andy's dad to Andy's ex wife said, here is the transmission note for the remainder of the money. Hope it arrives soon and Andy will be out of their clutches. Sometime next week, Andrew Drummond came to the conclusion that the £14,000 had been paid off to someone in the Chiang Mai court system to secure Andy Gill's freedom. Although, according to Andrew, this wasn't a sign of guilt. He told the documentary Murder In paradise, from my experience covering foreign cases, there is a demand for payment from one direction or another. I've seen 20 British men charged with offences against young children in the last five years, but I've only seen one case get to court. They've all got out and they've all paid money. They've paid money to get off a charge they could have been jailed for. I don't see this in the case of Andy Gill. You can't say, well, that man's guilty because he's greasing palms. He's doing it because he doesn't want to be in jail for five years on a charge in which he's not guilty. Andy Gill admitted that the money had been used to get the charges against him dropped, but he claimed it had nothing to do with him being guilty. He said he'd simply presented the prosecutor with his side of the story and let him come to his own conclusion. Given that the courts had no evidence to uphold the charges anyway, they'd let Andy go. Everything in Asia works through greasing the wheels, he explained. Foreign will be back shortly. Thank you for supporting us by listening to this episode's sponsors.

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Thank you for listening to this episode's ads. By supporting our sponsors, you support casefile to continue to deliver quality content with the charges against Andy Gill dropped and all other suspects being cleared by DNA, the investigation into Kirstie's murder was back to square one. As the weeks turned into months, it looked less and less likely that the case would be solved. Eventually, the one year anniversary of the crime came and went with no breakthroughs. In Wales, the Jones family tried to spend the day remembering Kirstie as she was when she was still alive, rather than focus on the tragic circumstances of her death. Still, finding whoever was responsible remained paramount. In a public statement, the Jones family said, one day we hope to see justice done for the safety of other backpackers, but most importantly for Kirsty. Someone somewhere should pay the price for robbing us and Kirstie of what should have been a wonderful happy life. With no progress in the case by its one year anniversary, investigators from Wales travelled to Chiang Mai to meet with the Thai authorities, only to be told that Kirstie's case had been closed. After a considerable amount of negotiation, the Attorney General agreed to reopen the case with assistance from the Welsh police. The original team of Thai investigators were removed from the case and replaced by a new group of detectives. Months later, in January 2002, the case was back in the headlines after it was revealed that two witnesses had come forward claiming that on the night of Kirstie's murder they saw two men hanging around outside of the Erie Guest House. One of them was a high ranking officer within the Tourist Police Force, dressed in civilian clothing. Unsubstantiated reports began appearing in Thai newspapers claiming that DNA supported the theory that Kirsty had been killed by a Thai policeman. Some claimed that the initial investigation had been deliberately botched to protect the real offender as the truth would have a detrimental effect on the reputation of the Thai police force and subsequently the tourism industry. At a press conference in Bangkok, the Welsh detectives refused to comment on this theory, with one remarking instead, despite the setbacks, I want to make the point that there are some very good policemen in Thailand who want to pursue the case properly and seem very willing to do so. A Welsh reporter for the Western Mail newspaper said that it didn't matter whether or not the killer was a policeman because, quote, the new allegation muddies the waters of an investigation already tar black with intrigue and tension. It also adds almost intolerable pressure on the Royal Thai Police to gain a conviction at any price. A number of exhibits taken from the crime scene were flown to the United Kingdom to be examined using the advanced technology available at the Forensic Science Service Laboratory. At this stage, the DNA samples simply proved that Kirsty's killer had been a Southeast Asian male. The UK forensic experts re examined the sarong that had been used to strangle Kirsty and detected semen and skin cells that allowed them to provide a full DNA profile. At the time, there was no centralised DNA database in Thailand for the authorities to test the profile against. They compared it to the samples taken from the persons of interest in Kirstie's case, including the tourism police officer witnessed outside the There were no matches to any of them except one. While tour guide Narong Pojanathamrongpong had been cleared from the investigation, the DNA profile resembled his strongly enough to indicate that the killer could be one of his relatives, a member of the Carran hill tribes. Welsh police recommended that mass DNA screening be carried out within certain parameters in Chiang Mai, with the regional police declining to do so. Members of the press tried to track down any members of Nerong's family who could possibly fit the profile of Kirsty's killer. This line of inquiry seemingly fizzled out. Then in April 2002, a year and a half after Kirstie's murder, came another twist. Stories started circulating in the press that two trans women had come forward claiming that Sooran Champ Prinette, the Erie guesthouse manager, had paid them to plant semen at the scene of the crime. Tighe investigators dismissed the claims as wild speculation, while Welsh detectives said the information was being received with caution. They reiterated that the fluids found on Kirstie's body could only have come from the person who killed her. By the third anniversary of Kirstie's murder, her family's heartache was as raw as ever. We will never get over losing Kirsty, the Joneses said in a public statement. We are trying to live without her and get on with our lives as best we can. Some days this is easier said than done. A young, beautiful, vibrant life has been lost and she is very much missed by so many. Knowing there is someone somewhere responsible for Kirstie's death is never far from our minds. Things in Thailand tend to move incredibly slowly, so we have to be patient. We shall never give up hope of catching her killer. This is the very least that Kirstie deserves. Welsh detectives remained actively involved in the case and were confident that Kirsty's killer would be identified. We have a piece of the killer and will always have that, one detective said. We have the DNA profile of the person believed to be the offender and we are confident someone will match that profile and be brought to justice. But the team was hindered by a lack of action from the Thai police As the years continued to pass without an arrest. It seemed like the Thai authorities only acted when pressure was placed on them by the UK police, police or Foreign Office. Welsh police suggested several lines of inquiry that Thai investigators didn't follow up on, including the mass DNA screening in Chiang Mai, as well as re interviewing key witnesses. Given that the Thai police remained in charge of the investigation, Welsh police felt as though their hands were tied. In 2007, Welsh politician Roger Williams took the issue to Parliament, voicing the deep frustration that Kirsty Jones family felt at the botched investigation and slow progress of the Thai authorities. He stated the family and police do not have unrealistic expectations of the Thai authorities. All they ask is for a methodical and professional investigation of what is a very detectable crime. I ask the minister to use all the facilities at the disposal of the Foreign Office to encourage the Thai authorities not to give up on on this case for the sake of the family and the safety of young people travelling in Thailand. Sue Jones described her family's experience of dealing with foreign law enforcement to Wales online. Unless you are in this situation, you don't realize what it is like, she said. You automatically think that someone will be holding your hands, but that is not the case. You have to work it out as you go along. It is extremely frustrating for us because we fire questions at the Thai authorities through the Foreign Office and anything they don't want to answer they will just avoid. Their way of doing things is completely different and we have to understand that. But it is hard to be patient. The investigation seemingly went nowhere until over a decade later in 2011, when a mysterious video popped up on video sharing website YouTube from an Australian retiree living in Chiang Mai. Identifying himself only by the username Mr. A.J.P. allen, the man claimed he knew the identity of the second man who had been seen loitering around outside the Erie guesthouse with the tourist police officer on the night of Kirsty Jones murder. According to Mr. AJP Allen, it was a Thai professor who worked at Chiang Mai University and also happened to be the younger brother of the police officer. Speaking to the camera in a deliberately clear and slow manner, Allen the Department of Special Investigations has all the details but will not act just in case I am wrong. I won't be taking this off the Internet until the British Embassy oversees a DNA test on this lecturer from the university. When the Jones family were made aware of this allegation, all they could do was hope that the professor in question would be subject to a DNA test. Obviously, if it is him, that will be a good thing, sue Jones told BBC News. If it isn't, it eliminates him from the investigation. A detective from the Welsh police told Wales Online that while the YouTube video wasn't evidence itself, it was still a viable line of inquiry and they felt it was important to rule it out. It is not about solving it for us, he said. It is about solving it for the Jones family and for Kirstie. She is the one who deserves to have the truth and we will leave no stone unturned until every line of inquiry is exhausted. When no breakthroughs came by August 2012, Sue Jones flew to Thailand ahead of the 12 year anniversary of Kirstie's death to announce a 10,000 pound reward for information that led to an arrest. For the first time, she also visited the Erie guest house and saw the room in which her daughter was murdered. At an emotional press conference, sue said, I am convinced there is someone who has information that could lead to the arrest of the person who took away my daughter's life. With the passing of time, people's loyalties change and relationships end, which may remove any previous reluctance to come forward. Something small, which may seem irrelevant at the time could now be significant and add new pieces to the jigsaw that the police already have. That same year, the DNA profile of Kirsty's killer was run through Thailand's national DNA database. Established in 2004, it contained profiles from around 80,000 individuals, including victims of the devastating Boxing Day tsunami that had killed over over 5,000 people in Thailand. There were no matches. In turn, Sue Jones made a Freedom of Information request to the Foreign Office, seeking all of the documents they had in relation to Kirstie's death. She was told they couldn't release any material that could jeopardise or hurt their relations with Thailand. While it was their job to help any family concerned about a death overseas, they weren't allowed to interfere with any criminal investigations that took place outside of the uk. In the documents they did provide, many of the names had been deleted. Convinced that the officials had consistently prioritised foreign relations over her quest for answers, sue told Wales Online, I'm pretty sure somebody knows what happened. They're probably too afraid to say anything or it's somebody in authority, but I'm 99% sure somebody knows. In 2014, Thailand's Police Force was back under international scrutiny after British backpackers Hannah Witheridge and David Miller were found murdered on the island of Ko Tao. As covered in episode 220 of Casefile, the investigation into Hannah and David's death sparked major alle of police corruption and cover ups after the two prime suspects, both Burmese migrants, claimed police had tortured them into making false confessions. In the years that followed, several other cases emerged involving foreigners who died under mysterious circumstances on the island. While most of the deaths were declared accidents or suicides by the Thai authorities, it put the Jones family onto a growing list of grieving families who called into question the way Thai police handled serious crimes against tourists. For Kirstie's family, each year that passed without a breakthrough in the case wasn't just painful and frustrating, it was a race against the clock. In Thailand, a 20 year statute of limitations exists on murder convictions. This meant that if Kirsty's case wasn't solved within that timeframe, a prosecution wouldn't be possible even if new evidence became available. As this deadline approached, Kirsty's family did everything they could think of to try and keep the Thai authorities interested in Kirsty's case. Despite all the hurdles they'd faced over the years, they'd always remained positive that something good would come out of the investigation eventually and someone would be punished for Kirsty's murder. As sue explained to Wales Online, you have to remain positive, because if you don't, you might as well give up. But that positivity became difficult to maintain as the 20 year statute loomed. In 2017, Welsh politician Chris Davies asked then Prime Minister Theresa May to step in and help the Jones family. He urged, I ask the Prime Minister to push the Thai authorities to use recently improved DNA techniques to bring the killer to justice, to endeavour to provide more support for families who have lost loved ones abroad, and finally, to ensure that Kirstie's personal effects at last return back home to her parents from Thailand. The Prime Minister offered her condolences to the Jones family, but said it was not the place for the British Government to interfere with police investigations that take place in another country. Kirstie's case was due to be closed on Monday August 10, 2020. Her loved ones, as well as those who had been following the case since the beginning, could do little but hope that a new witness or some DNA evidence unexpectedly came to light. Welsh television presenter Jonathan Hill had travelled to Thailand with Sue Jones back in 2012 when they announced the 10,000 pound reward for information. He'd been deeply impacted by the determination the Jones family had to see justice for their daughter. Jonathan told ITV News, Be in no doubt that this case is solvable. A targeted DNA screening of a local man in Chiang Mai would probably have revealed the killer's identity. But the case was always uncomfortable for the Thai authorities and no doubt there will be those who would rather it be consigned to history. Case closed. What is striking about the last two decades is how Sue Jones has conducted herself with such dignity. She never wavered from her promise to get justice for Kirstie and there can be no better demonstration of a mother's love for her daughter. Crushingly, the 20 year statute of limitations came with none of the answers Kirstie's family so desperately sought. Sue told BBC News. Kirsty has gone from our lives whilst her killer remains at large. Had they been brought to justice, the sadness and emptiness would remain the same. But it may have brought us some closure. I hope we have done her proud in trying to get justice. While Kirstie's case may have closed without answers, she is never far from Sue's mind. Staying in contact with Kirstie's friends via social media, it cut sue up inside. To see them all grow up, get married and have kids of their own. She couldn't help but wonder what Kirstie's future would have been like if her life hadn't been so tragically cut short. You think? Would she be married now? Sue pondered. To Wales Online. Would she have kids? Would she be on the other side of the world, working or travelling? Despite all the horrors her family had endured in the wake of Kirstie's murder, there was one thing sue was certain of when she travelled to Thailand for the first time, she could see why Kirstie had fallen in love with the place. It really is paradise, she told the Daily Mirror. The people were lovely. They couldn't do enough for us. You can't write off an entire country because of something bad that once happened there. The last thing sue wanted was for Kirsty's death to deter any other young people from travelling. Travel made Kirstie streetwise confident and ready for the challenges life could throw at her, she said. I'd hate to think her death would stop anyone fulfilling their dreams of seeing the world. It was a sentiment she'd felt strongly about since the very beginning. As sue told the BBC after Kirstie's body was found, she had every doubt in the world about her daughter travelling the world on her own. Regardless, sue said she never would have stopped her. It's what she wanted to do, sue stated. She wouldn't have been happy doing anything else. Our children are like grains of sand. The tighter we try to hold onto them, the faster they run. If you've used Babbel, you would Babbel's conversation based technique teaches you useful words and phrases to get you speaking quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world. With lessons handcrafted by over 200 language experts and voiced by real native speakers, Babbel is like having a private tutor in your pocket. Start speaking with Babbel today. Get up to 55% off your Babbel subscription right now at babbel.com acast spelled B-A B-B-E-L.com acast rules and restrictions may apply.

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My name is Madison McGee from LA Times Studios comes its latest series, LA Crimes. From deep dives into the Menendez brothers to conversations about why Bravo TV seems to be a hotbed of white collar criminals, we'll cover it all. We'll speak with LA Times reporters and others in the true crime industry industry to put a lens not just on these cases, but on our own culture's fascination with them and what that says about us. Tune in every Wednesday wherever you stream your podcast.