Adoption Unfiltered: A Birth Mom's Story & the Realities of Open Adoption

Summary

Cate & Ty Break It Down: Episode Summary

Episode Title: Adoption Unfiltered: A Birth Mom's Story & the Realities of Open Adoption
Release Date: May 7, 2025
Hosts: Tyler and Catelynn Baltierra
Guest: Kate, Co-Author of Adoption Unfiltered

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Introduction

In this heartfelt episode of Cate & Ty: Break It Down!, hosts Tyler and Catelynn Baltierra welcome Kate, one of the co-authors of the insightful book Adoption Unfiltered. The episode delves deep into the multifaceted world of adoption, focusing on the often-overlooked realities faced by birth mothers in open adoption scenarios. Through candid conversations, Kate shares her personal journey, the challenges of navigating the adoption system, and the emotional aftermath of relinquishing a child for adoption.

Background: Understanding the Authors

Adoption Unfiltered is a collaborative effort featuring three unique perspectives: a birth mother, an adoptee, and an adoptive parent. This comprehensive approach ensures that the book addresses all aspects of adoption without sidelining any particular viewpoint.

• Kate: A birth mother who relinquished her child for adoption in 2016 and has since worked in adoption advocacy and policy.
• Tyler (Ty): Co-author and adoptive parent who has experienced the adoption journey from the adoptive side.
• Sarah: The adoptee representative, providing firsthand insights into growing up post-adoption.

Key Discussions and Insights

1. The Genesis of Adoption Unfiltered

Kate recounts how the book came to be. Initially conceived by Lori and Sarah, they sought Kate's participation to provide the birth mother's perspective. Kate emphasizes the importance of bringing together diverse experiences to foster understanding within the adoption community.

Kate [00:29]: "It was such a group project, and I was learning so much about the adoptee side... It was a window into this other experience that I have no idea what it's like to be them."

2. Personal Journey: From Relinquishment to Advocacy

Kate shares her story of becoming a birth mother. Growing up in a conservative Christian environment, she felt compelled to choose adoption as the only acceptable option when she found herself unexpectedly pregnant at 22.

Kate [04:09]: "I grew up in a very conservative Christian home and that's, you know, you don't get pregnant before you're married. Yeah, that's a no. So I chose the family early on."

The emotional toll of adoption led Kate to work within adoption agencies, where she became acutely aware of the shortcomings in how birth parents are treated. This realization propelled her into advocacy, focusing on policy changes to support birth mothers better.

3. The Reality vs. Marketing of Open Adoption

A significant portion of the conversation highlights the disparity between how adoption agencies market open adoption and the actual experiences of birth parents.

Kate [15:39]: "There's a total mismatch between messages that we get with, like when they are marketing open adoption to you and then when you're actually in open adoption. For example, they always pitch it, 'open it up' like you're in control. You can choose the family, you can choose how much contact you get.' And this is like, that's not true. Just not true."

Kate criticizes the often misleading promises made by agencies, such as the notion that birth parents are in complete control of the adoption journey. In reality, open adoption agreements are seldom legally binding, leaving birth parents vulnerable and anxious about maintaining relationships with their children.

4. Emotional Aftermath and Postpartum Depression

Both Kate and Ty discuss the profound emotional challenges faced after placing a child for adoption. Kate openly talks about her struggles with postpartum depression and anxiety, which persisted long after the adoption placement.

Kate [43:46]: "I'm almost nine years post-placement, and I just started therapy. I have a great open adoption, and I don't have peace about it, and I want that so desperately."

Ty echoes similar sentiments, reflecting on his own experiences with postpartum depression following the adoption process.

5. The Importance of Legal Representation for Birth Parents

A critical insight from the episode is the necessity of providing birth parents with independent legal representation. Kate advocates for policies that ensure birth mothers have their own attorneys separate from the adoptive parents’ legal counsel.

Kate [21:13]: "And a lot of times people think, okay, birth parents can't afford it. The adopted parents will pay for the other side to have an attorney. And the agreement, the retainer agreement, will state that even though one party is paying the bill, my duty is to my client."

This separation is crucial to protect the interests of birth parents and ensure that they are not coerced or manipulated during the adoption process.

6. Advocacy and Policy Change

Kate and Ty emphasize the urgent need for systemic changes within the adoption framework. Their advocacy work focuses on educating birth parents, promoting honest communication, and pushing for legal reforms to better support all parties involved in adoption.

Ty [55:23]: "But I think just talking about it and putting it out in the world is the first right step, you know."

Concluding Insights

The episode underscores that adoption is a deeply personal and emotionally complex journey for everyone involved. While open adoption can provide a semblance of connection, it often falls short of the promises made by adoption agencies. The authors advocate for greater transparency, better support systems for birth parents, and comprehensive policy reforms to address the lingering emotional scars associated with adoption.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Kate [16:02]: "I will worry about all of my children till the day I die."
• Kelsey [17:30]: "It's nothing but a coercion tactic, in my opinion."
• Kate [43:46]: "I just want some kind of peace."
• Ty [56:23]: "And birth mom."
• Kelsey [58:07]: "I think adoption unfiltered book. And we read it before we placed, things would look a lot different."

How to Access Adoption Unfiltered

For listeners interested in diving deeper into the adoption experiences discussed, Adoption Unfiltered is available on Amazon and Bookshop. More information can be found on adoptionunfiltered.com, including upcoming events and advocacy initiatives.

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This episode serves as a crucial voice for birth mothers navigating the complexities of open adoption, highlighting the need for empathy, transparency, and systemic change within the adoption community.

Transcript

[Kelsey]

So we have here Kelsey, thank you for coming on. Kate and Ty, break it down. You are the author of Adoption Unfiltered. Well, one of the authors, I should say. And we are just so happy that you made this work and the timing, I know, wasn't the best, but I'm so glad that you're here and doing this is great.

[Kate]

Yeah, I'm so excited to be here. So. Yeah.

[Ty]

Well, I wanted to first say that when our adoption got closed, Adoption Unfiltered was the first book that I do audiobooks. So it was the first book that I ever listened to after that happened. And it literally helped me so much. I loved listening to all sides of it, you know, And I remember I was driving home in the car one day and I was texting Tyler, like, talk texting to him, and I was like, I feel so bad for what we not knowingly put Carly through as, like, a child and an infant. We, you know, when the book talks about just, like the preverbal traumas and the how the cortisol levels rise in the babies and all of those things, like, I was just blown away. And I think it's just very eye openening. I love how it talks about all sides of adoption. And yeah, I just. I really, really loved listening to this book because it just educated me on so many different levels.

[Kelsey]

Well, I think the reason why it's so important, too, is because, you know, there's three authors. We have a birth mom, we have an adoptee, we have an adoptive parent. So I feel like it's. The book does a good job of just making sure all those bases are covered and not one side is kind of, like, left out. But I will say I feel like some of the stuff in the book was hard as birth parents to hear, especially when we didn't know about any of this stuff. And we almost had to kind of break through our own, like, birth parent fog of our own. I feel like, in a way, if that makes sense to you, I did.

[Kate]

That while I was writing it.

[Kelsey]

Yeah, I bet.

[Kate]

It was such a group project, and I was learning so much about the adoptee side, and I thought I was pretty well educated on that side. And then we spent three years writing this and doing this project together. And I, you know, we would collaborate to an extent, and then we would go away and we'd write our own parts. But then when we would review each other's parts and read, I remember reading what Sarah, the adoptee author, wrote, and she was putting so much research. I mean, we all Did. But Sarah, Sarah is the type of person that's like, she's just going to go above and beyond every single time. And so she was putting so much care and research and it was so relevant and of what I was experiencing in my own open adoption. And I was like having my mind blown all the time. And then my dad is also an adoptee.

[Kelsey]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[Kate]

I'm putting together pieces of like his life too. And so in that way it's, I was so grateful for, for each of the other authors work because you're just like, it's a window into this other experience that I have no idea what it's like to be them, you know?

[Kelsey]

Yeah. So, so how did you, how, how are you affiliated with adoption for people who don't know? Like, how did you enter this whole little crazy consolation we have here?

[Ty]

Tell us about, you know, whatever you're comfortable with, obviously about your story and your journey and.

[Kate]

Yeah, yeah. So I am a birth mom. I relinquished my child for adoption in 2016. Teen. So I am still pretty fresh. And like I remember watching Teen mom in, in I think high school and I think we're all like relatively the same age, maybe 33, but I. 32.

[Kelsey]

Okay. Yeah.

[Kate]

So I was watching this, you know, happen to you guys and you always, always. And you guys were just a few hours north of me because I'm from northern Indiana.

[Kelsey]

Oh.

[Kate]

And so I'm always like, you just like think things won't happen to you. So you're watching this reality TV show and you're like, that's crazy. Okay, moving on. Because that's not going to happen to me. And then it does. I was 22. I wasn't a teenager, but I had just graduated college. I moved back home and I was just sort of, I don't know, like a 22 year old who's sort of lost in life and not sure what's going to happen next. And I got pregnant by someone who was like a friend with benefits and he was gone as soon as I told him I was pregnant. And so I didn't have a bunch of support. I didn't have support to parent. The support was to choose adoption. I grew up in a very conservative Christian home and that's, you know, you don't get pregnant before you're married. Yeah, that's a no. No. So I chose the family early on. I, I never really had options. Counseling. I just kind of dove right into adoption because that was the only accepted option for me at that time. And I built a great relationship with the family. I had a lot of time to get to know them. Not never enough time to actually, like, fully give your baby to. But I. I did, like, make every effort to build a relationship. I still have an open adoption. I do have a great relationship with them. I. And it's grown in past years. I think both parties have to be committed to open and honest communication. And when one is not, then that's a breakdown like you're headed for. I think you guys know that.

[Ty]

Yeah.

[Kate]

And I. I'm super grateful for. For what I have. I've gone through the full range of emotions in the aftermath. And I started working in adoption a year after, very much in, like, a honeymoon phase of, like, this is great, but I'm also coming home and I'm extremely depressed. And so I had a lot of cognitive dissonance working for an agency in Indiana. Not a bad agency, but, like, I probably shouldn't have been working in it at all. Right. Immediately, I saw there were things wrong with this system. The way that birth mothers and just birth parents in general were treated, the mixed messages that we were given and the false narratives that were placed on us. And I left after a year and a half and decided I wanted to do something on more of a macro level with policy. And it took me a minute to get there, but for the past four years, I've been working at a nonprofit in la, Ethical Family Building, and we work on the domestic adoption, private adoption policy issues. I'm also the daughter of an adoptee, and he. I am the fourth consecutive generation in my family to relinquish a child for adoption in one bloodline, in my paternal bloodline.

[Ty]

Wow.

[Kate]

So there's a lot of separation in our family that we deal with and sometimes we don't deal with. And that has, you know, lasting effects on not just, you know, me, as I found out in past years, is like, my daughter now that I'm parenting. And, you know, the. The separation is absolutely, without a doubt, the hardest part of this whole journey is. Yeah. With the space in between.

[Kelsey]

Now, did you, like. I know you mentioned you grew up very conservative, and in a Christian. Did you feel any, like. Like, religious pressure when you were pregnant? Because you said it was the only option. You just dove right into it. And that's kind of surprising that there was no, like, there was no other thought, like, even parenting like, that would that. What, nothing ever crossed your mind or.

[Ty]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

[Kate]

Your parents crossed my mind.

[Kelsey]

Okay.

[Kate]

But it was like more of like what you were. What was going to be acceptable? I wouldn't say there was like outright religious pressure, but there was the culture that religion had set up for me and my family in our life that kind of guided those expectations. I wouldn't say that anybody. Like, it wasn't like a pastor and it wasn't. I didn't like, have a Christian agency like Bethany or anything like that. That's like breathing down my neck with Bible verses. That was not my experience. But yeah, it was. It was more of the. The environment that I was in and that I had been brought up in that just set the expectations.

[Kelsey]

So you believe that, like, with the environment you were raised in, that there was only one kind of acceptable answer to it, and that was adoption.

[Ty]

I mean, did you, did your parents ever, ever tell you that they would support you if you decided to parent? No.

[Kelsey]

Okay.

[Kate]

Never.

[Kelsey]

And you never asked?

[Kate]

Therapy. I'm in therapy.

[Kelsey]

Yeah.

[Kate]

Like, you know, and you look at your kid. I'm parenting now, and I'm like, oh my God, like, I would help you, you know, but like, yeah, I can't imagine. I did at one point say, I think I want to parent. And I was pretty early in my pregnancy. Like, it doesn't matter either way. Like, you have a right to parent. But I was early enough that that wasn't really a issue. And they were like, no, no, no, no.

[Kelsey]

So they said, no, no, no. Like, they like, okay, wow, interesting.

[Kate]

And it wasn't for lack of resources. It wasn't like, I see. I see parents with a lot, lot less. Yeah. Help their kids time and time again sometimes. And I didn't get that. Yeah, I almost feel like a long, long time. They. That affected like self worth issues too. Or you're like, am I right? Am I an unfit mother?

[Ty]

That's what I was gonna say. Like, that has to be very hard on you. Like, nobody just stepping up when obviously they could have supported you if they, you know, would have said, hey, we can do this. Like, that's got to be so hard and hurtful because like, for Tyler and.

[Kelsey]

I, it's obviously they were.

[Ty]

They said that they would support us, but we didn't have any money. They were addicted to drugs. We had like, there was no way in hell I was bringing a child back to that. And sure, you know, if only I would have had sober parents and some like even just mental stability at home, it would have been completely different.

[Kelsey]

Yeah. Because they honestly, we had the opposite experience of. They were like, not. They were not for adoption at all. I thought we were crazy. And we were like, we think you're crazy. So the. It's interesting how, you know, you and her are both birth moms and had the same result and just totally different paths of how you guys got there. And it's interesting because what it comes down to, the similarity is, is that you just felt like it was your only option. And I think that's when it comes down to when people say, oh, you guys are so strong and selfless. Yeah, we're strong and selfless because we had to be. Because the desperation part you felt. Yeah, that's. You know, and other options were really.

[Kate]

Shielded from us, you know, which.

[Kelsey]

Which is interesting because it's like, you think that if all birth parents had the right options, counseling and just more time to explore other things, that I don't think they would relinquish as much. And like you said, there was a point in your journey where you're like, I'm on a parent. And you clearly had to, you know, people look at you and say, definitely not. And so it makes you question your, like, your own. Because me and Kate talk about it all the time, how it's like we knew inside what we wanted to do.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Kelsey]

But every logical reasoning outside was telling us that was not the right thing to do. And I think that that internal conflict is what makes being a birth parent, like, so difficult.

[Kate]

And I had my own, like, internal struggles too. Of, like, of course, I had just graduated college. I had dreams too. And. And so there were. It. There was a conflict of that that was very ongoing as well as, like, well, if you do parent, then you can't achieve anything in life, which isn't true.

[Kelsey]

Right.

[Kate]

That's what people definitely make you think. And it just, it. It will be harder, but it's not impossible. And it did make me sad to think about my child not having a dad. It wouldn't have been the end of the world, of course, but it made me sad like, that his dad was just didn't care.

[Ty]

Right.

[Kate]

And I was like, I can't imagine what that would feel like as a kid. And I. Well, I could. My best friend had a dad just like that. And I thought that really put a perspective on me too, that I was like, I want him to have a dad. But unfortunately, adoption also means that you don't get to be the mom.

[Kelsey]

Right.

[Ty]

Right.

[Kate]

In this situation either. And so there were. Yeah, there were a lot of really difficult things and just internal conflicts that you face as you're pregnant. And you're trying to make this decision and now on the other side of it, I, you know, you still have the fear. I have a great relationship, but you always have this like, natural fear that they're going to pull away. Right?

[Ty]

I don't think that ever goes away.

[Kate]

You don't have control over the situation.

[Ty]

Right. This show is sponsored by Better Help. As a lot of people know, I mean, Tyler and I are huge believers in taking care of your mental health. We're huge believers in therapy and finding the right therapists because, I mean, hey, mental health is just as important as personal health. This mental health awareness month, let's encourage everyone to take care of their well being and break the stigma. The world is better when people are healthy and happy. Me, myself, I have actually used BetterHelp and I loved the ease of the app easiness of being able to find a therapist that I like, one that fit with me and also that I could message my therapist if I wanted to and also do video sessions. I loved being able to do them just from the comfort of my own bed and being able to switch therapists at any time if I didn't feel like we fit together. BetterHelp is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient, serving over 5 million people worldwide. And like I said, you can easily switch therapists anytime at no extra cost whatsoever, which is awesome. We're all better with help. Visit betterhelp.com break it down to get 10% off your first month. That's better help hp.com break it down.

[Kate]

But I do try my best to make the best of it and, and cherish every moment I get with him because I know that not everybody has that.

[Kelsey]

Yeah, well, I think it comes to the point of like, you know, no matter what, no matter how great a relationship you can have with the adoptive parents and how open it is, you're always, no matter what, gonna be in an inferior position and you're gonna act on that feeling of inferiority. You're gonna be, you know, you know, kind of just at their mercy, which is the hardest part, because how do I honor myself while also being at the mercy of someone else? That goes against what it's just. Yeah, the internal conflict, I feel like is, is the hardest part. And also, you know, determining where is my rights, where do I step in, where do I be honest with myself and be open? And so it sounds like your situation is really as good as it can get. As far as they're open with you and you're open with them and there's you know, that's, that's really all you can ever ask for.

[Ty]

I think like you said in the beginning, that's like a huge key to having an open adoption. There has to be open, honest communication on both sides and people not getting scared or heard about what the other person's going to say. And, and then it's a tough thing to, to maneuver for sure.

[Kate]

There's a total mismatch between, of messages that we get with, like when they are marketing open adoption to you and then when you're actually in open adoption. And so like, for example, they always pitch it, open it up like you're in control. You can choose the family, you can choose how much contact you get. And this is like, that's not true. Just not true.

[Ty]

Or I was told, like, you're, you're in the driver's seat of this adoption journey and it'll look and feel how you want it to feel.

[Kate]

I can't tell you how many times I've read those exact words on websites before. Like it's verbatim. And then also they tell you, you don't have to worry about your child anymore. You're like, you're giving up your responsibility. Like you, you don't have to worry. You're, everything's fine, they're well loved, they're taken care of. And to an extent that may be true. Right. Because I physically gave birth to this child who is my flesh and blood. There's not a day in my life that I've ever not worried about. Same doesn't exist. I will worry about all of my children till the day I die. And if it's possible to worry about them during death, I will probably do that too.

[Ty]

Right.

[Kate]

And so I, that's not true. And, and also it kind of signals that we don't have any responsibility. And we do. And one of the things that's hard to get some birth parents to understand is that you signed your legal rights away. But like, your emotional and mental relational responsibilities to your child transcends any legal document that you signed.

[Ty]

Yes.

[Kate]

So that is still there. And you can't sign that away.

[Ty]

No, you can't.

[Kelsey]

It's kind of like you're, you're, you're kind of signing the dotted line emotional contract that's for life and you can't ever really get out of it. And I feel like that's one of the kind of selling points about this open adoption is that there, you know, you're, you have emotional freedom and it's like you have the freedom to go be a child again, and you can just not worry. But it's like the reality is, I don't know, I have not met one birth parent that doesn't worry after placement. Or, you know, they, they. It's. It's so. They don't tell you the emotional toll that it takes on you after you relinquish. And it's like one of those things where it's like, you know, these open adoption agreements that the agencies sell to you are not legally binding. And so my question is, then what is the point of the paperwork other than convincing me that this is going to be how I want it to be? And I feel like that's. You can't get around the fact that that paperwork.

[Ty]

Nothing.

[Kelsey]

It's. It's. It's nothing but a coercion tactic, in my opinion. My personal opinion is that why would you sell me something that, you know is not enforceable? What is the point of spending weeks writing out these details of an open option agreement? And I just feel like, you know. Yeah, like, like, you know, there's talking about one, but being in one is just totally different.

[Kate]

I. I can't remember. Did you guys have a. A legally binding agreement?

[Kelsey]

No.

[Kate]

Like your open adoption. Okay. No, there are some states that do the legally binding, but there's. I mean, there's all sorts of.

[Ty]

Oh, gosh.

[Kate]

Yeah. Barriers to getting it enforced because you have a birth parent who probably doesn't have the money to go hire an.

[Ty]

Attorney to go get it enforced.

[Kate]

My colleague actually does enforcements. She has a firm that just represents birth parents, and she's an attorney and she does enforcements out in California. She's actually really good at it and really successful with it. But it's.

[Ty]

Can you pass her number? You might want to talk to her. That's interesting.

[Kate]

She's amazing. And, you know, I think she's not because she's an attorney, but because she's so good with relationships and conflict. She used to be a divorce attorney before she did adoption.

[Ty]

Okay.

[Kate]

And she's so good at just like, preserving what's left of relationships and helping people understand how to grow it and put pride aside or whatever. But anyways, she's awesome and I've seen her, like, work total miracles with open adoption agreements and enforcements of those. But that, that's is a skill that is not very common. Not everybody has it.

[Ty]

Yeah, no, it's not very common.

[Kate]

Every attorney has it. And, and so I've heard her talk on the phone to Birth parents calling for enforcement. And she has hard conversations. She's like, you have to know that like we have to salvage what's left of this relationship because at the end of the day the relationship is the most important part. It's more important than the words on the page. Right. And so, but, but we're not even giving this information to birth parents before placement after placement. Like they are not getting any education on open adoption.

[Ty]

No, not at all.

[Kelsey]

Yeah. And also it's like why. I guess my thing is as far as we talk about policy change, like it should be a legal requirement to have this attorney for these birth parents. I don't care where you live, what state you're in. It should be, but it should be.

[Ty]

A separate away from like separate from the, you know, agencies or anything like they non affiliated with them.

[Kate]

Yeah, yeah. We, we advocate for separate legal representation in every case. I didn't have my own attorney. I was like relying on the advice of the parents. Attorney.

[Kelsey]

Yeah.

[Kate]

And they, the attorney literally told me, you don't need an attorney, you don't need an attorney. Now every time I talk to someone I'm like, you need one and you don't have to pay for the attorney. You need an attorney.

[Kelsey]

So let me ask you a question. This attorney of that your is a friend of yours, does she like are we able to donate to her? Like does she do pro bono for birth? Like how does that work if they can't afford it?

[Kate]

Like she will work out something.

[Kelsey]

Okay.

[Kate]

I don't know. I. She's my boss actually.

[Kelsey]

Okay.

[Kate]

I don't work for the firm. I work for the non profit so I'm on the other side. It is a non profit firm, but it's separate from the entity I work for. Okay. But she. So yeah, like you can donate but. And you could probably like earmark it for adoption like the PACA enforcements and stuff. But she, she works it out.

[Kelsey]

Okay. I was gonna say. Cause me and Kate been trying to find like if there's any way that we can have an impact on the this whole industry as a whole is to like we need to get these birth parents representation before birth. As soon as during the whole process think about adoption. We need, they need to have legal representation. And a lot of the times birth parents place because their poverty, they don't have a lot of money. So it's like me and Kate are always trying to like, I'm like, where is this firm? There's got to be. If there's legal firms that only represent Adoptive parents interest. There's got to be an opposing firm that only. You know what I mean?

[Kate]

That's her firm.

[Kelsey]

I need her number.

[Ty]

Yeah, right. That's awesome.

[Kate]

Yeah, she's great. And separate legal representation should be happening in every case, regardless. And, and not just like, if you're an adoption attorney at all, you should be prepared to represent either side, whatever the case requires. But. And a lot of times people think, okay, birth parents can't afford it. The adopted parents will pay for the other side to have an attorney. And the agreement, the retainer agreement, will state that even though one party is paying the bill, my duty is to my client. And that's. That happens in a lot of circumstances. Like, that happens in cases like, like criminal defense. Like, if your child gets arrested, they're, you know, 17 years old and I'm the parent and I'm paying. It's a little different because it's a little less adversarial. But at the end of the day, that child is the one being represented and not the parents. Or even if the child is an adult and it's, you know, he's 18 and he's being represented and the parents are paying. The parents can't just orchestrate the whole thing because the attorney is. Has a duty to their client. And if they don't, if they breach that, they can be reported to the state bar. So there's kind of a. A mechanism there. Not foolproof, but.

[Kelsey]

But it's a star. It's something cost.

[Kate]

Should be covered by the adoptive parents.

[Kelsey]

Yeah.

[Kate]

Regardless of the outcome of the adoption, if it happens or not.

[Ty]

Well, I wanted to. I had a. One of my questions to you, like, to get back to the book. So when you and the two other authors met, what kind of inspired you guys to even start writing the book in the first place? What were you seeing with adoption and you. What made you guys feel like this is super important to put out into the world for people to read?

[Kate]

Yeah, I. They started the idea on their own. Lori and Sarah did. I. They brought me on, um, like, after talking about it for a few months, they. They were looking for a birth parent to write that section. And I spoke at a conference and they. That's how I met them. And then they emailed me and they asked me to write it, and I said, yeah, I also have a hard time saying no to things. So I kind of. I wasn't sure if it was going to happen or not. I was like, yeah, sure, I'll write a book for you. But then it Ended up being great. So they. We kind of saw this need for. For. It was a period of time. It was 2021. So.

[Kelsey]

Okay.

[Kate]

Pandemic still. It was early 2021, and we're still, like, dealing with the fallout of 2020. Like, this reckoning of 2020. Right. With the George Floyd and. And everybody is dealing with this trauma that they're watching out front and they're bleeding out on social media. Like, everybody is publicly dealing with things, which was very new when you think about recent years, beyond 2020. And so we were watching in the adoption community, especially people having this own personal reckoning with their own adoptions or with the concept of adoption. And it was kind of spreading like wildfire. And we were like, this is great. But also, some of this is not helpful. And we wanted to find a way to bring all sides together and sort of contain some of the infighting that started to happen.

[Ty]

Yeah.

[Kate]

And promote understanding and reaching across the aisle just to, like, understand each other's side. Because we all come from different sides, and if we're all yelling at each other into the center, we're not hearing.

[Ty]

Yes.

[Kate]

Each other's experience. And so that's where it really started, was wanting to understand and then also having an understanding that, yes, this is my adoption experience, but also there's more people in my adoption experience than just me.

[Kelsey]

Right.

[Ty]

Yeah.

[Kate]

And there's more important people. Like, there's the adoptee. And so we wanted to kind of encourage other people to do that internal work as well, with their own little constellation. So.

[Kelsey]

Yeah. So it sounds like. So honestly. So you. You were seeing a lot of, like. Like, animosity between everyone fighting, which, honestly, we can. We have. We're seeing it now play out on our social media like it is. We've never.

[Ty]

Yeah. When we speak about how hard it is for whatever. You know, how. Or how hard it is or we're struggling today, it's like we're, like, the craziest people that ever existed because we have emotions about our adoption.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Kelsey]

And we didn't realize that people fought with each other. Like, seeing adoptees argue with each other. And I'm like, well, this is so. What is. I'm like, this is so crazy. And I think it's a good thing that you guys kind of put this book together because you're not leaving anyone out of the discussion. Like, everyone's invited everybody.

[Ty]

And as I listened to it, too, it was nice because everybody shared, like, their good experiences, but also shared, like, their fears on all sides, you know, like, the adoptive parents spoke about their fears, the birth parents did. Like, it was just very much an honest but factual book. And it was. It was very informative for me.

[Kate]

Yeah. It. The only thing that we have all in common is, like, that this happened right. Beyond that, everybody has very different experiences. There's like 25, 000 private adoptions happening every year. That doesn't count adoptions happening out of foster care. And it. And that number has kind of leveled out in recent years. And so that's 25,000 kids that are being adopted, but that's also 50,000 birth parents and 50,000 adoptive parents. And then you expand that view more and more to include siblings, extended family, grandparents. That's a big number of people experiencing this every year. And none of them have much in common except for that the adoption took place at some point for whatever reason.

[Ty]

Yep.

[Kate]

And so you have people that. It worked out for them really well, and it was the right decision. And they are, you know, they. They didn't have another option. And then there are people that they. They don't think that that was the right decision. And there are people that live in the middle.

[Kelsey]

Yep.

[Ty]

Yep.

[Kate]

And so when everybody talks over each other as this is, this is the truth for everybody, even though it's just the truth for them, it's like, there's not much productive conversation and learning happening.

[Kelsey]

Well, I actually feel like the productivity gets drowned out by everyone saying that their truth is everyone's truth, and there's just so much nuance that you can't categorize it or label it.

[Ty]

Well. Yes. So much pain. And especially with adoption, like, you will never find two stories that are alike at all. Like.

[Kate]

Right.

[Ty]

You know, they are all completely different and unique to the person. So. Yeah. For people to argue about it, that this is the right way, and I had a great one, so I don't understand why you did. And it's like, just if everybody could come to the conclusion that your story is different than mine, my story is different from. From yours. But at the end of the day, we are all feeling these feelings, and those are valid.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Kelsey]

Yeah. And I also think the advocacy work gets, like, People get really very passionate about defending if you advocate or not and what you're advocating for. If that's adoption reform, that's adoption, you know, abolishment. I want to. I want people to understand that this book is not anti adoption. No, it's not. You know, I don't think any of us are trying to sit here and spew anti Adoption rhetoric at all. We're just trying to give people who possibly might be in adoption situation all the information that we kind of feel like we didn't have or we wish we would have had, you know, so, yeah.

[Ty]

How do people feel on all different sides of an adoption?

[Kate]

Yeah, I, And I think that even, like, because I, I would say that, like, I have had a good experience, like, I have a great open adoption, I have a great relationship, but I can still look at other people's stories that are not good and be like, there's injustice in this story.

[Ty]

Right.

[Kate]

You should, you deserved better than that. Your child deserved better than that. And we want to, we want to make sure that this doesn't happen to other people. Like, that's very much the angle I take. And you're right. Adoption filters, not anti adoption. We knew that to reach the masses, we were going to have to lower our voice. And not everybody has to do that. You can decide what your goal is when you're, when you're speaking who your audience really is. And sometimes your audience isn't the people that are like, well, I'm grateful for adoption. And that's. And it's been perfect for me. And it's like, I'm happy for you. Yeah, get out of my comments. Yeah, we're not talking about that right now.

[Ty]

Right.

[Kate]

And me talking about something that's hurt other people has no effect on you and your story.

[Kelsey]

Well, that's kind of why I feel like it's interesting because I've never seen this much pushback of people saying, you, you know, you're only talking about bad stuff and you're not advocating for us because you're not an adoptee. And I'm like, well, I didn't think I had to be an adoptee to advocate for this information. And I feel like the fact that people are arguing with each other about what's right and what's wrong, it just drowns out the message that really what matters is that, I mean, me personally, the adoptee should be the number one child center. It should be all about them. And so we all come second. And I think even adoptive parents can agree that we should all come second. You know, most of them, yeah, yeah.

[Kate]

Agree more seriously, with their thumbs typing out whatever they think is the new rule that we have to all follow.

[Kelsey]

I think if people could just respect everyone's different situation that they experience and not try to, like, just minimize them. And I feel like a lot of it has to do with, like, my response is very similar to Yours where I'm glad that you had a, a positive adoption experience.

[Kate]

That's what I want for you.

[Kelsey]

I want that, I want that for everybody. That's just not the case. And so your positive experience does not negate all the person who had a negative one. And so my thing is, why would you not want to elevate the voices of people who had a negative one? You should be happy and proud and not defensive if you had a positive.

[Kate]

Experience and you should want that for everybody.

[Ty]

Exactly right. And that's where it should go to. And it's like, okay, awesome, you had a great experience. Well, some adoptees or even birth parents might not have. And obviously there's a problem in our society until every single adoptee comes out and says, I had such a great experience, because there are some that don't share the same thoughts and feelings.

[Kelsey]

And until every adoptee has a good experience, the system is broken and we need to focus on that. I mean, that's the whole point.

[Kate]

I feel like, oh, 100%, I agree, 100%. And yeah, it's, it's like this never ending battle, which is, it's kind of an unnecessary battle. The slightest thing too. It doesn't even have to be this whole, we don't even have to be really talking about abuse or coercion. You could just express your grief.

[Ty]

Right.

[Kate]

And people don't like that either. So it, you know, people are going to say what they're going to say. And, and the point is, is that us having a voice at all makes people very uncomfortable.

[Kelsey]

Very.

[Ty]

So that's not my problem.

[Kelsey]

Yeah, right.

[Ty]

And to, and to me, that just shows that it needs to be talked about more because it shouldn't be making people uncomfortable. It should be, people should be saying, wow, well, what can we change to make it better? Or what can we do to make this work better?

[Kelsey]

Well, that's kind of my shocking. I'm like, your, your response to someone saying it was bad experience for them is, well, I had a good one. So I don't know what you're talking about. Instead of being like, wow, I'm so sorry you had a bad experience. I wish, well, what can I do to make this better? Or what can I do to help this broken system that failed you so much. And don't I feel like it's interesting because I don't know if a lot of adoptees really know about the fog and I don't know if that's a general thing that they know about because I happen to feel like What I'm reading a lot of those comments that are attacking other adoptees who had a bad experience. It's like you're operating from a place of. I don't know if you really know about the fog at all.

[Kate]

I always have had a weird just relationship with the, with the term, like coming out of the fog too, because it's such a process and everybody does it in their own time.

[Kelsey]

Yeah.

[Kate]

And so sometimes I see it get really weaponized towards people who are still in it. So people will be like, you're in the fog and just here, buddy. Like, like, let them figure their own life out. I think education is good, but like, it has to be, it has to be gentle for some people. Not everybody's going to receive the same. The messaging the same way and on their time. Yeah, yeah.

[Kelsey]

Because the message will get drowned out if you're wasting your time. If you're trying to educate and you do it in this aggressive, attacking way, then you're helpful. Your message doesn't even get across. So you just failed your mission to educate. In my. So I try to be very like open minded when adoptees are, you know, yelling at me, saying, you're all this stuff. And I'm like, I'm not trying to.

[Kate]

I think you guys do a great job moderating comments, by the way.

[Kelsey]

Okay. I didn't know.

[Kate]

Just like looking at it the other day, preparing for this. But like, I saw some just like nasty comments and Tyler, you're like, hey, I respect you. Like, that takes a lot of patience to do that because I just block people.

[Kelsey]

Yeah. I mean, and they get mad at me when I block them. And that's fine. I only block people if they're unnecessarily rude or they mention and speculate about my daughter, who I place and how she feels that I'm like, you're not allowed in this conversation.

[Kate]

You're not getting it.

[Kelsey]

Yeah. And. But I wanted to go back to. You said you worked at the agency. Did you feel that after placement you felt a calling almost to kind of like.

[Kate]

Yeah, yeah. I, I didn't work at the same place. I placed through. Okay. So it was a totally different entity. I did not get any like post placement support. Shocker. Because a lot of people don't. And. But through a mutual friend, I met another birth mom who lived in South Bend, Indiana, which was not that far from me. And come to find out she ran a support group. And so I got to meet other birth parents. I, I went to that every month. And then, then I found out that there was an agency that actually hosted that support group and I went to lunch with the agency director. She. They asked me to go to lunch with them one day and I did. And they called me that night and offered me a job. I didn't apply. I was not looking to get into it. I was passionate about like making sure birth parents had support, but I didn't really know how to use that. Like, I didn't know what I was doing with that message at that point. It was still really early, but yeah, I worked for them. It was a great experience. It was hard. It was really emotionally tough to, to do. I wasn't a caseworker. I would not have been able to handle that and I don't want to do that work. But I, I did education with them and they actually let me come in and change a ton of their policies and a ton of the way they did things, which was awesome. And so.

[Ty]

See, that's awesome.

[Kate]

It was a great experience. And I'm still really close friends with the people I worked with there and, and it gave me a space to process some of those really early feelings of grief with therapists that worked there, you know, that had already. They already knew what I was going through because they had worked in this for so long and so. Yeah. And allowed me to see things that I. We're like, this is wrong. This should be happening. Right? So, yeah.

[Ty]

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[Kelsey]

We always say we were kind of, like, brainwashing ourselves, in a way into healing.

[Kate]

And then you go home and you kind of fall apart. That was you guys, too? Yeah, that was me.

[Kelsey]

Because you almost feel like imposter syndrome a little bit, because you're out there and you're. But then you go home and you're like, I'm not talking about how I'm sitting here miserable at home. And it's. It's. It's a. It's a weird, weird feeling to have. I feel.

[Ty]

But then I feel like speaking at.

[Kate]

Like, pro life events, and I same. I'm not pro life now.

[Kelsey]

We were too same.

[Ty]

We did the same thing. And that's why I'm like, what was.

[Kate]

I doing that they get you then? And then they're like, oh, come talk to us. And I. In the book, I remember I wrote something like, there's two stories that society really wants to hear from birth parents. They want to. Or not from birth parents, but about birth parents. They want to hear about your time in the hospital, your time being pregnant, and how that selfless choice that you made. And then they want to hear 25 years later when you're having that beautiful TLC channel reunion.

[Ty]

Right?

[Kate]

And they don't give a. About anything in between. No, they don't care. And they're like, in. In fact, not only do they not care, they don't want to hear it.

[Kelsey]

They don't want to hear it. That's what I've noticed.

[Kate]

Not in line with societal narratives that they've been fed their whole lives. They don't want to hear it at all.

[Ty]

No. And I feel like from us speaking for so many years and then also, you know, being on a reality television show and talking about our adoption constantly and how it was so good and beautiful, I feel like for me as a birth mom, it took me so many years. That's why I think. I truly think birth parents can go through a fog themselves, because it took. It took up until. Till, you know, our couple closing our adoption, when all of a sudden I was. I was, like, broken and feeling like PTSD horribly. And that's when I. When I woke up and I started listening to, like, you know, adoption unfiltered and relinquished. And I looked at myself, and I was like, I don't think I'm healed from this. Like, no, I.

[Kelsey]

We're allowed to not be.

[Ty]

And I. And I'm like, I don't think I will ever be healed from this. I Think this is.

[Kelsey]

I.

[Ty]

The way that I explain it is like, I feel as a birth mom, like, this is a sorrow and a pain that I will carry with me for life. And if there's a very deep wound. Yeah. And if. And if there's an afterlife, I think I'm still gonna feel it then, too. Like, I don't think it's ever going to weigh. You can work on it as much as you want to, but for me, I was just like, I'm not healed.

[Kelsey]

And, you know, it's always going to hurt. Society honestly gets mad at us. I feel like for that, they're like, move on. Get over it. Let it go. You did it.

[Ty]

And like you said, like you said in the beginning, like, how my child is my child, regardless of if I place them or I parent them, like, I'm always going to love them, and it's always going to be painful.

[Kate]

I love when people tell me to get over it. I love it so much because my response is always like, okay, which one of your kids are you going to give up?

[Kelsey]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Kate]

Which one of your kids would you give up? And then get over it?

[Kelsey]

And then get over it two years later?

[Kate]

Like, how would that work for you? And. And that always gets them to shut up because they wouldn't. They couldn't imagine.

[Kelsey]

And then you ask them, why. Why wouldn't you? And then. Yeah.

[Kate]

And I'm. I'm almost nine years post placement, and I just started therapy. Just started therapy.

[Kelsey]

Oh, you did?

[Kate]

Because I let it fester for so long, and it doesn't. I think you think that you're different and that it's going to go away and you're not that messed up from it. And then you're like. It just seeps through you in different ways. It comes out in your parenting with your children at home, and it comes out with your spouse, and it comes like. It comes out with how you interact with your family and the anger that you hold on to. And I don't want to be angry for the rest of my life. I want to have peace. I have a great open adoption, and I don't have peace about it, and I want that so desperately. So on some kind of piece, some level of peace, I don't think I'm gonna get fully Zen.

[Kelsey]

Yeah.

[Kate]

Ever in my life, but. Yeah.

[Ty]

Do you feel like. Do you feel like now with parenting the child that you're parenting now, do you feel like that was. Oh, well, first of all, do you feel like you experienced any postpartum depression?

[Kate]

Oh, my God.

[Ty]

Did you.

[Kate]

It was years of it. I felt like, yeah, Yeah, I think. Yeah. I felt very anxious with my daughter. I had postpartum depression with the son that I placed, and then I had a ton of anxiety and just, like, postpartum rage more against my husband. That could be a million things.

[Kelsey]

He could take it.

[Kate]

But I had just a ton of anger and a ton of anxiety with her. And then that lasted a long time. Like, they say, like, oh, it could last three months. And I'm like, we're going on a year.

[Ty]

Like, it's not going away.

[Kate]

But then I've found out that it. It can last for a very, very long time. It can be ongoing. Yeah. Postpartum depression. And I had this naive belief that when I had my daughter that. Not that I knew that it wasn't like, a replacement. Right. And I knew that it wasn't, like, gonna all be resolved, but I did feel like there was gonna be that part of me that yearned for someone to nurture that that was going to kind of go away, and it didn't fully resolve previously, so.

[Ty]

Right.

[Kate]

But with my. My daughter was also a pregnancy that was not planned. I. We. We were married, but, yeah, we just had gotten married, like, just had gotten married three months prior, and the pandemic started.

[Kelsey]

Oh, wow.

[Kate]

Two weeks before I found out I was pregnant.

[Ty]

Oh, yeah. I was curious. I was curious about the postpartum depression because, like, looking back on my. My adoption journey, like, I do feel like I went through postpartum depression after placing her, because, I mean, who wouldn't? I feel like, almost, in a sense.

[Kate]

Oh, yeah.

[Ty]

But then also just more recent. I. I struggled with postpartum depression after Nova was born, and then, you know, just most recently finding out that a lot of birth moms experience postpartum depression after placing a child. And it was all just, like, clicking me with me. I was like, well, of course, like, your body is remembering all this trauma from the first time you had a child. Like, of course it's going to trigger things within your, you know, your mind and your nervous system. And so she also. So, like, the whole postpartum stuff. But also, as you've been raising your daughter, has any of the milestones or anything that she has gone through, has it any of that ever felt triggering for you as a birth mom?

[Kate]

Oh, yeah. I think maybe triggering isn't the right word, but I think it's like a reminder of the. The sadness. Yeah, I don't think I've really been triggered.

[Ty]

I meant Like a, like, set me off. No, I mean, like, emotionally triggered.

[Kate]

Yeah. Yeah, like emotionally. And now that my daughter's able to have a relationship, she asks questions. And you know, they always ask questions before you're ready for them to.

[Kelsey]

I know.

[Ty]

Yeah, they do. They do.

[Kate]

Like, what? I didn't prepare for this, so. Yes. And if there's always. I say this all the time, that there's always someone in my home that's missing. There's someone that's not sitting in our dining table. There's someone. There's a bed that's not there. You know, and so, and, and I very much feel that sadness. And so it, yeah. It's hard to move beyond that. And there's a part of you that doesn't want to because I, I don't want to. You know, that's my child. I, I don't want to like, mentally leave them behind.

[Kelsey]

Let go. Or it's one of those things where it's like, you want to let go, but you don't want to let go. But I also think it brings up a good point that nobody talks about post relinquishing parenting. Like, I, you know, you post relinquishing. And then I'm going to be a parent eventually some years down the line and how that literally will bring up so many things and affect your children and. Right. Like you said, your, your daughter's four. Right. Okay. And so at the. I want people to understand, at the young age of four, she's already asking questions about her.

[Kate]

Yes.

[Kelsey]

Sibling who, you know, like, I think people get it confused where it's like, oh, well, you, you implanted all these ideas in your, in your kid's head to know that there's a sibling out there and why did you tell them and that they have a, you know, a sister. And it's like, we didn't really do anything. It was, we have pictures in our house, we talk about.

[Ty]

We celebrate her birthday.

[Kelsey]

Celebrate her birthday. And so, you know. Yeah. The post relinquishing parenting is, does not get talked about enough or how you don't really realize how it's going to affect your future children.

[Ty]

I never thought about that.

[Kate]

I had a sister that was placed for. Or she was adopted by a step parent. But we never knew each other till I was like 16. She was nine years older than me. We're as close as you can be with your sister that you didn't grow up with. But I found out about her when I was 12, but I had already found her pictures buried in the back of a closet. And it was too many pictures for it to not be a sibling. But I, it was sort of like a fantasy in my head that like this was my sister. But I always obsessed with going when my parents were not like paying attention to go and find pictures of her, this little blonde girl for her school pictures. Through growing up and everything, I was like obsessed, like, who is this person? Is this my long lost sister? And it was, I know that pain too, as the child that was parented. And I'm like, like I know what's happening with my daughter. The only difference is that we've told her from the very beginning. Yeah, we don't. She doesn't have all the details, but she knows that she has a sibling and, and she has a relationship now as well. We have a picture of them together in her room. And this just this weekend, she's like, I need you to change my bookshelves around because I need that picture right by my bed. So I had to move everything around. And they're like, okay. But yeah, it is painful for them. And a lot of times when, you know, they're four years old, they're asking questions, but they're not really expressing exactly how they feel about things.

[Kelsey]

Well, I think people kind of get, they, I think people get it confused where it's like, you know, post relinquishing our, our child and then parenting later on, they're like, you're not doing a good enough job by shielding your children from this experience.

[Ty]

Why would I shield them?

[Kelsey]

And I'm like, I'm so confused. You're acting like me talking about the daughter replaced and also this child's full blooded sibling that like were wrong for it. And I just feel like where did this idea come from that it was, it's our fault for trauma? Like we're not well, they act like we're traumatizing them.

[Kate]

Gonna parent in secrecy. And like that's what my parents did. And I, I don't like fault them for. They didn't really know what they're doing. Right. Like nobody knows, but they definitely didn't have any idea. Like they probably shouldn't hide that from us.

[Kelsey]

Right.

[Kate]

And I, I've experienced the secrecy part of it. I don't like it. And I'm not gonna do that with my kid. And kids are, kids are not. Kids aren't resilient enough. Like you can tell them the truth. It's actually much more preferred to tell them the truth and hide things from them. That's betrayal to Them to anybody.

[Ty]

Because that's what I was gonna say, like, you know, for Nova. Because obviously, first with Nova, but with all of our kids, like, we've always had pictures of Carly all over our house. You know, she's all over our house. We celebrate her birthday. She's talked about all the time. Um, and so Nova just kind of always, you know, her being the oldest, she's always been raised knowing her. And so is Vader. Like, Beta will go around the house and be like, that's my sister Carly. And, like, you know, point at pictures of her and stuff like that. And. And it would just. When you raise them for it to be normal, it just becomes normal. Like, Nova would ask certain questions, and I would answer them very truthfully to an age appropriate, you know, way, and she would understand them because kids are smart.

[Kate]

Sorry, what are you guys supposed to do? You're on national television, Right. What do these people think you're going to do? Like, you're just like, no, that's all. That's actually.

[Ty]

Right.

[Kelsey]

Yeah.

[Kate]

And like. And there's cameras around. Like, what are they? I don't know.

[Ty]

And so it was.

[Kate]

Thanks. Before they speak.

[Kelsey]

Yeah.

[Ty]

No, and it's funny because for people to think that it's, like, traumatizing your kids, it's the total opposite. If we would hide her and not talk about it, it would be traumatizing. But it got to the point where, like, you know, I would take Nova to her piano lessons, and some random lady would walk in the door, and Nova all of a sudden be talking to her, and she'd be like, hey, you know what? My mom had a baby when she was 16, and she didn't have anything, and she lived in a really bad house. Like, and she would start telling this lady, like, random people that we would meet. My whole adoption story, and she would say it completely accurate to her age level. And then, you know, she would go into a piano lesson, and the lady would look at me and be like, I'm sorry. She's not very, you know, obviously she's.

[Kate]

Not shy them a little bit. Right, right.

[Ty]

But for me, for me, it was, like, empowering. I was like, wow. Like, look at her. She understands it. She grasps it. She knows the reasons, and it's important.

[Kelsey]

And some people can say that it's.

[Kate]

Smarter than people give them credit for.

[Kelsey]

Yeah, they. They are. I think people discredit the child's ability to understand things. And it's like, you think that we're purposely traumatizing our child, children by Talking about the child be placed, that's like, really just not. I don't know. I just don't know. Opposite.

[Kate]

We have a total resistance. I. I don't. I can't speak for, like, other parts of the world, but I definitely know in this country there's a. You know, a lot of people are really resistant to the idea of just talking to their children and explaining.

[Ty]

Right. Like, why.

[Kate]

Because that's always this, like, there. It's always brought up in policy arguments like, we can't do that because how am I going to explain it to my kids? I'm like, I don't know. Maybe start by talking to them.

[Kelsey]

Maybe start by truth, because that's what.

[Kate]

You should be doing anyways. And that it's the same thing. Like, people think, no, they can't handle it. They can't handle it. And I'm like, well, they're not going to handle it at all if you don't tell them.

[Ty]

Or the other thing. Or the other thing that I love is, you know, if you place a baby for adoption, God forbid you ever have children ever again in the future. Like, you're not allowed to have any other babies.

[Kelsey]

How dare you.

[Ty]

Yes, that's another one that blows my mind.

[Kate]

Well, and that's the other thing that we do in this country all the time, too, is we like to punish everybody and we like to point out who deserves what punishment. And so for us, it's like, oh, you did this. And also someone coerced you in some way or forced you or. Or cut away all your other options, but you still do that now. You can't do anything for the rest of your life.

[Kelsey]

Yeah, they ignore all the other unethical things that happen, but they're gonna focus on the. Yeah, it just doesn't. Some of the stuff doesn't make any sense. And the more that me and Kate talk about it publicly, like we're doing right now, it's like, it's just, it's. I'm still shocked that we have so much more work to do. Like, there is so much more work to do. It's. It's like, mind blowing, actually, because I honestly thought we as a society after 16 and pregnant and showing our, Even our adoption story publicly, like we thought, okay, we're. We're moving.

[Ty]

We're moving because it was positive at first. That's why.

[Kelsey]

And then it's the moment we speak our truth that goes against society's norms or whatever they've had in their head built around it. It's like, now we're just the evilest people that ever walked the planet. And it's mind blowing to me that, like, wow, we actually still have a lot of work to do and we.

[Ty]

May not even see a change in our lifetime, you know, like, who knows? But I think just talking about it and putting it out in the world is the first right step, you know.

[Kelsey]

And that's kind of why we wanted to start this podcast and have people like you on here who just. Let's get this conversation going and bigger as big. Because honestly, when I tell people that adoptees are a minority, I've gotten a lot of negative, like, people are very upset with that fact. And I'm like, well, listen, if you're. Instead of yelling at me because I'm delivering a fact to you, question why this fact is making you so upset. Because it's important that you understand that. Yeah, less than, you know, it's 2% of adoptees out in the whole world, but there are 33 times more likely to commit suicide than any of their peers. And that's a, That's a really strong statistic that should. We should be talking about. Like, it's a. It's. It's a thing. And so it's like, you're getting mad at me for delivering the facts, but let's focus on the facts. Like, that's a problem.

[Ty]

And honestly, some of those facts in the beginning of the book really just threw me for a loop. I felt like, yeah, I felt like complete. Like a complete shitty mom.

[Kelsey]

Yeah.

[Ty]

And birth mom.

[Kelsey]

Yeah, it did.

[Ty]

For not knowing these things. I was like, oh, my gosh, I placed her for adoption.

[Kate]

How would you have known?

[Ty]

That's what I mean. It was like, I placed her for adoption and she's already going to have trauma for that, but now even more likely to become a drug addict, more likely to struggle with mental health issues, more likely to commit suicide.

[Kate]

Most positive of research that we. Even in the most positively slanted, biased research that comes out about adoption, about how. How happy adoptees are and how satisfied they are with their adoption, there's still information in there that's useful. Like, there was one that came out that was like, a lot more adoptees struggle in school than kids who are not adopted. And that's a concern. Like, that's something that needs to be addressed. How do we address that? And so, you know, there's. Yeah, there's a disparity.

[Ty]

Yes. And to go off of that, I think that. I think what made me upset and angry the most Was that birth parents aren't told these things.

[Kelsey]

None of this.

[Ty]

We aren't told about the struggling in school or the struggling with, you know, mirror mirroring or anything like that, like genetic mirroring or, you know, just mental health problems. Like, they don't tell us any of that.

[Kelsey]

They don't talk about pre verbal trauma.

[Ty]

Right. And it goes back to the fact of, like, well, if we knew all of these things and all the struggles that, you know, adoptees go through, that it probably wouldn't exist. And so that's where, you know, just me coming out of my own stuff, I was like, oh, my gosh. I feel like I was kind of manipulated in certain areas and that I was lied to in certain areas. And it was just something very hard to get slapped in the face with, like, with learning everything.

[Kelsey]

But it's almost like you got a withdraw from the fantasy that you built in your head around. Pretty much you've justified your decision so much that when you get hit with certain facts, you're just like, whoa.

[Kate]

Well, and you want it to be the right decision, right? Because, like, for all the pain that you've gone through and then also for what your child may or may not experience as a result, you want that to be the right thing because you can't take it back. Right. You can't go back on it. You want it to be the best possible outcome for them. You don't want them to struggle. But whether or not that happens is a lot of times out of our hands. And that's what's really hard to grapple with.

[Kelsey]

But what we're in control of is educating and spreading this information. I guarantee adoption unfiltered book. And we read it before we placed, things would look a lot different. So I think it's important. Yeah. So I think it's important that we get this topic out there because the negative feedback that we're getting, it just clear that it's still very taboo. People don't want to hear about it, they don't want us to talk about it. And I just feel like personally, for me, the more that they're telling me not to talk about it, the louder I just want to get. Because.

[Kate]

Yeah, that's you.

[Ty]

That's you.

[Kelsey]

I mean, yeah, yeah.

[Ty]

And also too, like how you said, like how we want, obviously we want it to be the best for, you know, the child that we place, because, you know, at the time we were thinking it was the best option. It does go back to about, you know, about openness and for adoptees that are adopted to be the most whole and emotionally secure and healthy. Adopt. Adoptee. There has to be openness and there has to be communication on both sides.

[Kelsey]

As long as it's safe enough to do so.

[Ty]

Yes. And because, you know, if statistics have shown and, you know, research has shown is that that is the most beneficial for them to be whole people. And that's all that I wanted when I made this.

[Kate]

That's what I want.

[Ty]

Yeah, right. Like, I just wanted her to be whole and happy and healthy and it has to. You have to communicate.

[Kate]

Yes, absolutely. Man. It's a journey for sure.

[Ty]

It really is. But do you. So do you get to have, like, face to face visits with your son that you placed?

[Kate]

I do.

[Kelsey]

Oh, that's so cool.

[Kate]

Yeah, we. We live far away from each other because I'm in California now, but. But yes, like once or twice a year.

[Ty]

Oh, nice. Okay, that's great. And you're so. That's cool. Your daughter gets to come and.

[Kate]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ty]

Special.

[Kate]

Like, we've kind of. We've become, you know, they become good friends. And my husband, they love him and they love my daughter. And so it's. It's been a pretty positive experience in that regard. And so.

[Kelsey]

And what, can I ask you, like, what. Yeah, what, what, what in your opinion has made it a positive experience for you?

[Kate]

I think the relationship. The relationship and watching, like, being able to be part of that and watching him grow and watching, you know, getting to know them better because, you know, how much do you really know during a crisis pregnancy? Yeah, right. But. And I don't. I don't know, I have my own personal, like, private feelings about whether or not certain things should have happened, you know, during pregnancy and all of that, but I also can't take any of that back. And so I'm here now and very committed to seeing things through, doing my part and playing my role as whatever that may be from year to year. And. And so, yeah, there's a lot of positives to it for me personally, but also there's. It's not without.

[Ty]

Oh, it's bittersweet always and forever.

[Kelsey]

The grief is. Yeah, the grief is inevitable. I think the trauma is inevitable. But I also want people to understand that, you know, we're trying to share everything. So if we have a positive adoption experience, an adoptive parent might be listening to this. Like, what. What would they. What has made it positive? So obviously it sounds like the access.

[Kate]

The open communication, really the biggest answer. And. But I also want to make clear that, like, I don't share my positive story to convince you that this is the right option for anybody and that right. I. I very much honor everybody's, like, experience and good or bad or in between. And I never want mine to make people weaponize it and say, see? But you can have. It's not. It's not set in stone.

[Kelsey]

Right.

[Ty]

Well, and just like you said, like, the happiness and the being, gratefulness also comes with. There is pain and there's grief and there always will be. It's always going to be bittersweet.

[Kelsey]

And I think also, even for adoptees, you know, being raised, it's like you could have the best adoptive parents, the most trauma, informed parents, the most, you know, all the things they honored, openness. And the adoptee can still have trauma that they have to deal with.

[Kate]

There's loss. There's just loss that you deal with. And it's a loss of much more than just the two people, like the birth parents, but their identity and everything, the mirroring and the extended family and the cultural participation and, you know, there's so much there, like, it's stuff that if you were raised by your biological parents that you probably take for granted because you've never thought about it. You never thought about never ever being told that, oh, my gosh, you look just like your mom did at that age.

[Kelsey]

Or school projects.

[Kate]

Hear that?

[Kelsey]

You know, school projects, where to do the family tree. That's a very common thing that I hear adoptees say. That was when it hit me that I was way different. And it was. That's intense, you know, for them to deal with.

[Ty]

And it was hard for them. A lot of them say it was hard for them because it brings up emotions for them, too, just because they're kids. Like, they still have emotions about it.

[Kelsey]

Yeah.

[Kate]

Yes. Yeah. I never questioned my belonging in my family. You know what I mean?

[Kelsey]

We were lucky.

[Kate]

But people do. People do, and they deal with that. So, yeah, I wish it was something that people would just get it through their head because it's not that hard to understand.

[Kelsey]

That's what we're trying to do here with this whole podcast and having you on. And that's why we're just so. I'm so thankful that you were able to make this happen. I know your schedule is busy. Appreciate it.

[Ty]

So tell people where could. Where can they find you? Where can they find the book?

[Kate]

So Adoption Unfiltered is on Amazon. It's on Bookshop. You can also find out more adoption unfiltered.com to see, like, whatever we're up to. There may be some events coming up on the west coast in the late fall. So exciting. That's coming up. Maybe we can come there mostly. What'd you say?

[Kelsey]

Maybe we can go to some of those events. Maybe.

[Kate]

Maybe you're invited.

[Kelsey]

If we're welcome. All right.

[Kate]

I will keep guys updated. And then I'm on Instagram at from another mother and it's like, just how it sounds. Love it. And then I also have a project we've been working on for a year now called Utah Adoption rights, where we are making an effort to let moms know in Utah specifically, we'd like to take it national someday. But in Utah specifically, how to advocate for yourself while you're in pregnancy considering adoption. How to what your rights are, what the state allows you to do. And we. We get that information directly to them to their front door. So that's awesome. Our work. That's.

[Kelsey]

Well, make sure to send us all the links so that we can share with all of our listeners. Yeah.

[Ty]

Okay, great. Please do. For sure. And keep doing the work you guys are doing. I think it's awesome.

[Kate]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Kelsey]

Yeah, we support you 100% for sure.

[Ty]

And what you guys are doing. Awesome. And thank you so much for joining us today. And thanks for having me. Yes. Thank you, guys.

[Kelsey]

Thanks, Kelsey. Are you looking for your next case?

[Kate]

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[Kelsey]

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[Kate]

Very cool.

[Kelsey]

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[Ty]

Take care of business, fellas.

[Kate]

Watch all the cases all for free from all your favorite devices.

[Kelsey]

We got you. Feel the free Pluto TV stream. Now pay.

[Kate]

Never.