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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Guys. I know I talked to you guys last week that we were gonna have a guest this week, and I'm super excited. This week we have Ashley with us. Hi, Ashley. Hi.
- [00:22]
B
Thank you so much for having me.
- [00:24]
A
Thank you for taking the time to do it. I know how it is being a mom and all the things that come with that.
- [00:31]
B
Ye. Yeah.
- [00:33]
A
I mean, if people don't remember you, I mean, I don't know how they wouldn't, but you. You were on 16 and pregnant, season two, and you also chose adoption.
- [00:45]
C
Yeah. So for people who don't know who you are, just give a little. Little gist of. Of how this all came to be.
- [00:52]
B
Like, how it came to be. Like, just, like, getting on the show.
- [00:55]
A
Or, like, choosing adoption or all of it. Yeah.
- [00:59]
B
So, yeah, I found out I was pregnant when I was. I just turned 17. I was in 11th grade, and there was this show, 16 and Pregnant. I saw y'. All. I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, this is. This is, like, such perfect timing. Because, like, back then, I mean, I'm sure y' all remember, it was just, like, such a taboo subject. Like, it wasn't as, like. I don't want to say accepted, but it just wasn't as common as it is nowadays. And I think that's just because people weren't really speaking about it yet. But some girl that I knew through, like, MySpace was like, hey, there's this show. And I'm like, yeah, I'm aware. And she's like, they're actually, like, casting for a new season. You should apply. And I was like, you know, whatever. Why not? And prior to that, I had started a blog because my school was so small that, like, everyone knew everyone. And there was, like, one other girl who was pregnant, like, a couple years back in high school, and people just, like, started, like, talking and, like, chit chatting. And I was like, you know what? If people are going to talk anyway and they're going to notice, I'm going to, like, out myself in my own way. So I started this blog, and so I applied to the show, submitted my blog, and I think that's, like, what helped me get on, because that's what they noticed. And I don't know how it was for y', all, but they had me do, like, a questionnaire. And then, like, the next day they got, like, right back to me, and they're like, we want you to do, like, a video of a day in your life. So I did, like, a little vlog. I made that. And then, like, a Couple days later, they were like, hey, we want to come out and start filming. We want to, like, talk about your blog and, like, you know, just everything. Like, all that.
- [02:41]
A
Yeah, that was kind of like the same thing for us. Same thing. Like, we fill out those questionnaire, all the things, and then they wanted us to, like, shoot a video and, like, answer all these questions, like, via, like, over a video, too.
- [02:51]
C
And that was back in the day when we had flip cameras, when it was like a little USB popped out from the side.
- [02:55]
B
It is, yes. I was. I was trying to remember, did they send us those to record on? Okay. I was like, how the heck did I end up with a flip camera? Because they. They gave me one later, too, but I was like, how did I. Like, I remember recording on one, but I don't remember ever having one. Like, buying one.
- [03:11]
A
Yeah.
- [03:11]
C
This was a day before a GoPro for all the young people.
- [03:15]
A
Because I remember when they got GoPros and I was like, this is top tier.
- [03:20]
B
Yeah. That they gave us. Yeah, they gave us, like, a little, like, 16 and pregnant pen and, like, the flip cams.
- [03:25]
A
That's.
- [03:25]
B
And I still, like, have it. Yeah.
- [03:27]
A
I wish I still had ours. It is. It's so ancient. It's so ancient.
- [03:32]
B
Yeah. I saw it the other day.
- [03:34]
A
And so, like, when you. So when you were filling out, like, the questions and all the. All the stuff to, you know, possibly get picked for the show at that point in your pregnancy, did you know that you were considering adoption at that time or were you still not really sure?
- [03:50]
B
Gosh, I'm trying to remember. It was so long ago. I'm pretty sure that I was. Because I considered everything. Like, I considered, like. I'll just be honest. I considered abortion. I considered adoption. I just didn't know what to do, like, keeping her. So, yeah, that was definitely an option that I had.
- [04:08]
A
Yeah.
- [04:09]
B
In mind.
- [04:10]
A
And I think it's cool because they. They've, you know, like, the show and stuff. They've only documented. I think there was only, like, three of us that chose adoption out of all of them. Yeah. Because there was another girl later on that chose adoption also.
- [04:25]
B
Yeah. So.
- [04:26]
A
And I think, like. So for you, how do you feel like doing the show and stuff? How do you feel like it went as far as, like, do you feel like it was accurate? Do you feel like it helped your adoption? Do you feel like it negatively impacted it or, like, what do you feel? How do you feel like your experience was overall doing the show, sharing your journey? Yeah, I'm sure.
- [04:50]
B
Y' all can relate is that is such, like, a loaded question. Because there's, like, so much to it. There's, like, so much to be grateful for. But so much like that, I don't think, like, while we were younger, now that we're older, like, affected us, like, so much. Like, I think it did impact my decision in the aspect of, like, a deadline. I think that was a part of it. Cause I'm like, I have to make a decision. Like, do I just end the show? And, like, they just leave it, like, open, like. And that's a huge reason why I, like, my show is, like, prolonged. And there was, like, a whole bunch. I don't know if y' all know. There was, like, a whole bunch of, like, moving around and, like, moving, like, someone's episode here and someone's episode there. Because I kind of, like, lied to the producers because I couldn't make a decision. And. And I, like, flew out secretly to see my daughter. And, like, this is just pro. Was like a whole other story. But it, like, prolonged filming and everything, and I just, like, could not make up my mind. So I think, like, in regards to how it impacted the decision, I think perhaps I felt, like, a little rushed. But also it was nice to be able to have, like, different resources and, like, options because I didn't know that. I feel like they knew more about that world and had more experience and could offer more advice and had different connections and things like that than I did. Which we didn't even end up using, like, an agency or anything at the end of the day. But even though we didn't go with the agency, they did bring in people from the agency to, like, offer counseling and things like that.
- [06:24]
A
Oh, that's.
- [06:26]
B
Yeah. So that was nice. But.
- [06:29]
A
Because if people don't. Because if people don't know, like, say they haven't seen your 16 or pregnant, maybe they don't remember. So obviously. So you, you know, you decided that you were going to make an adoption plan. Can you kind of go through, like, a little bit kind of level, like, your journey safe. People don't know, like, who you chose to be the adoptive parents, how you kind of. How you. How you kind of flip flopped in your mind not knowing what you wanted to do. Because I don't think a lot of people don't think that, like, birth moms, first moms, whatever you want to call, and dads. Like, we do. We go through this, like, moment of time where it's like, oh, this is for sure what I'm gonna do. And then it gets closer. You're like, I don't know if this is what I want to do. Maybe this isn't what I want to do. And I think that's natural and normal.
- [07:12]
B
Yeah.
- [07:12]
A
So, like, if nobody were to ever see your episode, can you kind of talk us through, like, you know, your pregnancy, who. Yeah. Who you chose for the adoptive parents and kind of the struggles and stuff that you went through after placing her.
- [07:24]
B
Yeah, I. So my pregnancy, I guess it was. It was tough because, like, I didn't have her dad around or anything, which is actually my son's dad, so I was gonna say their dad, but I didn't have twins. I didn't have her dad around, and so that was tough to go through. My mom was also a teen single mom, so that was tough as well because I didn't want to, like, repeat that. I definitely wanted to, like, break cycles so that it was just, like, I knew I wasn't going to do abortion. So that was off the table from the very beginning. But I just was like, I. I don't even know. Like, it's crazy because back then, you. You think I thought I was so grown. I was like, I know everything. I'm going to be 18. Like, this is like, I can do this. I can make all these decisions. But, like, looking back, like, you're a kid, like, you are a baby. Like, that. That's crazy. Like, she's. She's. She'll be 17 this year, so it's like I was her age. It's crazy. And she's a b. I was like, yeah, I've got this. Like you said. Like, I, you know, I'm confident. This is what I want to do. Like, I'm going to start looking at families and, like, looking back, like, it's like, you can shop families. Like, you're looking at, like, pets or something. It's like, like filters, and it's just like, this is wild. Like, I don't know. But, yeah, by, like, the grace of God, my aunt and uncle stepped in because they have my cousins, and she. After that, she always wanted more kids but couldn't. So they were like, well, we had been thinking about adoption. So they. I guess they were talking about it. I didn't know. But when they found out, they started discussing it.
- [09:08]
C
And.
- [09:09]
B
And that's when my mom told me, like, hey, like, your aunt and uncle want to adopt her. And I was like, okay, wow. Like, that's great. To me, that was just like a blessing. Problem solved.
- [09:19]
A
It's.
- [09:20]
B
It's. You Know, decision made, it's good. But then, obviously, as you start, like, getting further in your pregnancy and everything, like, that's just so much harder. So.
- [09:29]
A
So were they having the conversation with, like, your mom about wanting to adopt your baby and, like, then your mom just brought it up to you?
- [09:38]
B
I think they were having it amongst themselves. And then I think they were, like, talking to my mom about it, and then my mom was like, my mom brought it to me, I assume. I think that's what happened. I didn't really know. Okay. Until my mom. Yeah.
- [09:50]
A
And have you always been close with this aunt and uncle?
- [09:53]
B
Yeah, I have. Like, growing up, because we're from, like, a small, like, South Texas town, like, right above, like, Mexico, like, by. Like, there's a beach there and everything. And that's where I grew up. So I was super close with my uncle and my aunt, my cousin. We used to, like, hang out and play a lot, and my grandparents were down there, so we'd see each other, like, all the time. So. Yeah. Like, I remember growing up, I used to wish, like, no offense to my mom or anything, but I used to wish, like, wow, like, I wish they were my parents because it just seemed like such a stable household. You know, two parents. Two parents, and, you know, the standard.
- [10:29]
A
Yeah.
- [10:30]
B
But, yeah, we were always close.
- [10:32]
C
Yeah. So I think one thing that we always talk about, we have a lot of, like, birth parents and adoptees, but we rarely have a kinship adoption story, which is really what yours is, is kinship, because it's, you know, your. Your daughter is still in the biological family unit, which I think some people will say, oh, my gosh, that's great. But there's also a side of it where it makes it almost even more difficult than. Than if it was a different way. Like, can you explain, like, how, you know, it's like, how. How do you balance that? Like, okay, you're my aunt, my uncle, you know, technically, you know, the cousin's sibling. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's. It's difficult.
- [11:11]
B
Yeah.
- [11:11]
C
So.
- [11:12]
B
And thank you for acknowledging that, because I think as I've gotten older, I've started to realize that it is, like, so difficult in its own way. And y' all are so well versed. Like, kinship, I guess, is the word. Like, I never really use that term, but, yeah, def it. It's tough. So, like, at the beginning, I think it was hard. Well, so I think because we were always so close, we never went through talking about boundaries or counseling, like, what this would look like in the Future and setting. Yeah, like, setting boundaries and, like, rules and, like, you know, parameters around everything. And so it was like, after I had her, it was really hard to kind of respect those boundaries.
- [11:53]
A
Well, because you didn't know them, right. They weren't discussed.
- [11:56]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. Yeah. Not even respect boundaries, but to, like. Yeah. Respect what boundaries?
- [12:03]
D
This episode is sponsored by Better Help.
- [12:05]
A
Oh, gosh.
- [12:05]
D
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- [12:28]
A
We get it.
- [12:29]
D
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- [12:40]
A
On yourself, you're right on time.
- [12:42]
D
Therapy can really help you find your way and see more clearly where you want to be. I mean, an imperfect love life is common, and sometimes it just takes a little work in therapy to lead to.
- [12:52]
A
A lot of progress.
- [12:53]
D
Even for my marriage, I. We had to do therapy to figure out what is the best communication style, how do we make each other feel uplifted and all the things. I mean, therapy for us was just a huge driving factor of why we are so successful in our marriage. It helped us figure it out, which you can, too, and it encourages people to take pressure off themselves. Better Helps therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the US BetterHelp does the initial match working for you so you can focus on your therapy goals? Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com Sign up and get 10% off at betterHelp.com Break it down. That's better. H E L p.com/break it down in my episode.
- [13:40]
B
I mean, we can talk about this later because this isn't really, like, directly related to the question, but I ended up, like, being, like, so distraught. Like, I don't know, like, I wanted to die. Like, just to, like, put it, like, be, like, straightforward. Like, I didn't, like, it was horrible. I was so depressed. And, you know, they were like, you know what? Like, you can do this. And they encouraged me, and that's when I flew to, like, get her and they gave her Back and. But after that, like, she ended up being placed with them ultimately. And after that, I still was. Tried to, like, I tried to go back. I don't. I haven't really talked about this, but I try to. To go back and get her again and be like, you know what? I did make a mistake. And, I mean, I think that that would have not been right had I done that. If they allowed that. I think that they did the right thing in keeping their. Their bound, holding their boundaries there. But I think that they. I could be wrong, but I feel like, because I kept pushing and pushing and pushing and wasn't, like, respecting that space, it kind of probably frustrated them a little bit. And then I got offended that they were frustrated. And so I was mad. I stayed super mad for a while. And also, like, I think that again, because we were close, we didn't really think that I needed counseling or anything like that. So I didn't really go through that. Neither did they. Like, I think, like, they probably needed counseling too. Yeah. And so I don't think that they did that right away. So. Yeah, it's. It was. It's just like. It's really tough. And now, like, like, you mentioned, like, term terminology and, like, mom and things like that. Like, I still find myself, like, getting a little jealous whenever, like, she will, like, call, like, my cousin, like, her sister and. Or, like, hey, I'm gonna go here with her. It's just like. Like, it frustrates me, even though I. I know, like, that's good for her, that they've, like, totally accepted her is like, family. Like, I mean, of course they have. Like, I don't know how to explain that.
- [15:33]
C
Well, I think it comes back to, like, you know, logically, you know, that. Yes, that's. But it's like, it's like logic versus versus nature. Like, nature, you know? Yeah. So I feel like. And honestly, so to backtrack to a little bit because I don'. Realize that you. You relinquished her to them and then you went back to. You're like, no, I'm changing my mind.
- [15:53]
A
Brought her home.
- [15:54]
C
Brought her home. How long did you have her when you did that?
- [15:59]
B
It was a month. Just because I felt like. I don't know. That's another thing. Like, it's like, how long do I. Was I allowed to do that? And, I mean, they were prepared for forever. And, um.
- [16:12]
C
But.
- [16:13]
B
But, like, I didn't know. And.
- [16:16]
A
But so, like, you had her at home, so you went and you got her, you brought her home, you had her with you. For a month, raising her as your own. And so what do you think? What kind of caused you to maybe go back and be like, all right, maybe I didn't make the right decision. I need to go and give her back to them. Was it outside pressure? Is it something you really internally felt like you needed to do?
- [16:37]
B
Honestly, I can't say because I just believe, like, the decision to give her back, I think that. I don't want to say impulsive because I had so much time, but I feel like in the moment I was like, okay, like, I need to do it. And there's a scene in the, in. In my episode that's like I'm sitting there with the counselor from the adoption agency that we were going to go through, and she's kind of just like talking me through, like, both sides. And I was like, okay, well, like, I guess I need to do it. Like, there was pressure about, like, college and, you know, all these things of like, what are my next steps going to be? I'm 18. I just turned 18. Like, what am I going to do with my life? Which, looking back, it's like, you're going to figure it out. Like, it's going to be okay. But I was like, oh, my gosh, it's the end of the world. Like, what do I do? And then of course, my mom, she wasn't married. She had just like, divorced from my dad like, a few years ago, but she never got remarried up until, like, you know, when I was older. But yeah, so she had to work a lot. So it's like. And like, a lot of people like to like, blame her. I've noticed. But it's like, I know, like, she had to work, like, otherwise, like, we wouldn't have a place to live, you.
- [17:51]
A
Know, she was a single mom.
- [17:52]
B
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, yeah, so I was. That was another thing. Like, like, I would need to. There's just so many factors that went into it.
- [18:01]
C
And I want to touch on that because I don't think people really understand the thought process of what happens when you do have second thoughts. Because you'd be lying to yourself if you said you didn't have second thoughts or else you would never went back and got her and brought her back. You know what I mean? So it's like, yeah, and I think people like. And it's interesting you mentioned something that. That kind of hit me when you said I had enough time. And do you really think that a month is enough time?
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B
No. Like, no. No.
- [18:29]
C
So isn't it weird how we Kind of like talk ourselves. Like, it's.
- [18:31]
B
Yeah.
- [18:32]
C
It's like, well, I had enough time and that you're almost like kind of like trying to like, oh, make it. But it's like, no, actually, that's not. That's not a lot of time to make a life altering decision. Not only for you, but for the baby too. Like, it's a huge thing. Like, a month is not that long.
- [18:47]
B
It's not. And like you. And then you're like, well, like, as you're saying that, I'm like, well, it technically was because I had like, had all nine months and then like, I had to process it a lot through the show. But it's like, no, like, even like being filmed, like, conflicts, like, so like, it like adds such a different layer. So it's like, did I really, like, how much time is enough time? So.
- [19:06]
C
So you. You went and you brought her back here. What. And you said you didn't use a. An agency. So what. What influenced the agency to be involved in the conversation about whether you should or should not give her back?
- [19:21]
B
I think it was just like. I don't want to say it was mtv, but I mean, she was very kind. I think it was just like, well, why don't we bring her back? Like, her name was Ashley too. Why don't we bring Ashley back to like, talk you through options or kind of what you're going through? Because she had experience in that. One thing I do want to say, and I totally forgot about this until I saw like a clip. I don't know if I had looked at something in my episode or it popped up online. I don't know. But the. The counselors from the hospital are the worst. I don't know if y' all had one.
- [19:52]
A
We had like a social worker randomly standing in. She was like, randomly standing in the middle of the room, like, while we're crying, like, saying goodbye. Like, it was the most awk.
- [20:01]
C
Awkward.
- [20:01]
A
Weird, like, get the out of here moment ever for me.
- [20:04]
B
And they like, they. I think they're supposed to like, talk to you about your emotions. Like, no offense to that lady, but I think she also probably felt very awkward because the cameras. But she's just like, ours never even talked.
- [20:16]
A
Right. Well, at least yours talked to you. Ours just like stood in the room in a corner.
- [20:20]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [20:21]
A
That's like randomly, like, weird.
- [20:24]
B
That's so weird.
- [20:26]
A
So. And I didn't know, like, so after your episode air, because I know they showed like, you going back to get her and then you kept her For a month. Then you took her back.
- [20:33]
B
Back.
- [20:33]
A
But I didn't realize. So after your episode, you went back out there again and tried getting her, or you guys had just had the conversation about it?
- [20:39]
B
No, I think. Gosh, I don't even. Like, there's parts like, I don't even remember. I think I was just like, I'm gonna. I don't know if I, like, threat. I don't want to say threatened, but I think I was just, like, you know what I. I can't do. Like, I made the wrong choice. I think it was maybe along those lines.
- [20:54]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [20:56]
B
But I never, like, went back or anything.
- [20:57]
A
Oh, okay. Yeah. And I could imagine, like, I couldn't go back. What Ty said about, like, doing kinship and stuff, too. Like, for me, like, okay, it's probably more beneficial for the adoptee.
- [21:08]
B
Right.
- [21:09]
A
In that sense. But, like, being first parents, birth parents, whatever, like, that has got to probably be so much harder because it's constantly, like, in your face. Like you said, when you feel the emotions of, like, sometimes I get jealous, and sometimes I get, like, hurt because maybe she's going somewhere with her, you know, sister or calling them different things. Like, I feel like for the adaptee, it's super beneficial, more beneficial. But I feel like for us, it would be even harder.
- [21:35]
B
Yeah. Yeah. And that's like. And. And that's so true. But, like, as. Like, I always think. And I know y' all think the same, like, as long as she's, like, taken care of and, like, happy, like, that's. That's all you can ask for. And I mean, in my case, like, she. She definitely is. So I'm grateful for that, and I'm so blessed that, like, I'm able to, like, still see her. Like, I was still seeing her throughout the time. I don't think there was a time that they were ever, like, you're acting this way. You can't come. So they definitely gave me a lot of grace there.
- [22:03]
A
Like, so they definitely. They. So they kept it pretty much open because. How far do they live from you?
- [22:08]
B
Yeah. Eight hours dry.
- [22:11]
C
Okay.
- [22:12]
A
Okay.
- [22:12]
B
Yeah.
- [22:13]
A
So were you able to, like, see her for, like, birthdays or, like, holidays or, like, things like that?
- [22:18]
C
Wow.
- [22:19]
B
Yeah. Yeah. And she's. She. She was just up here, like, over the summer. Oh, for a little bit, yeah.
- [22:27]
A
So does she, like, come. Does she come and, like, stay with you, or is it, like, she just comes. Oh, really? She stays with you?
- [22:32]
B
She did? Ye. Yeah. That's why I'm trying, like, so hard to get a Bigger place. I only have like a two bedroom right now, so, like, she just, like, slept with me, so that's like a blessing.
- [22:42]
A
How would you describe your guys's relationship now? I mean, she's about to be 17. Does she know your story and everything you went through, like, deciding adoption for her and stuff?
- [22:52]
B
Yeah, they had her in, like, counseling, I believe, like, from the beginning, which I believe was very wise. Yeah. And when she was old enough, I think, like, like, pretty recently she saw the episode. But she also had access to like, obviously, like technology, so she'd be like, googling and things like that.
- [23:08]
A
Yeah.
- [23:10]
B
But, yeah, I mean, it's pretty good. We text. Like, we were just texting. She just started a new job. Like, her first day was yesterday. Yeah. So she, like, tells me a lot and, like, talks to me about a lot of things that, like, she's going through and, you know, things like that boys, you know, whatever.
- [23:28]
A
Yeah.
- [23:28]
B
I'm like, you better watch out, girl. Like, yeah.
- [23:31]
A
Seriously.
- [23:33]
B
Yeah. But yeah, it's. It's. It's pretty good. And I feel like I'm super blessed for that.
- [23:39]
C
Yeah, that's amazing because I feel like, you know, a lot of the open adoption stories that we hear, it's usually it's. It's closed pretty, pretty, pretty soon. But the fact that you guys have relationship, like you do and are able to text and just have that openness is like, I mean, that's all. That's all any I think, birth parent could ever ask for. So. Yeah, that's really awesome.
- [24:02]
B
Yeah.
- [24:03]
A
Because.
- [24:03]
B
Yeah.
- [24:04]
A
And so fast forward. Okay, so she's about to be 17, but also, like, you and the birth dad obviously stayed together and you guys ended up having another child, a son. Correct.
- [24:15]
B
Yeah.
- [24:16]
A
Like, and so I think that's something that like, Ty and I and you kind of have in common. Like, we are raising now, like, these full blooded siblings of these adoptees. And how is the relationship? Like, I feel like, because I. They say a lot of the times that, like, adopted children and their siblings are super close because it's like their peers and like, a different form of understanding. How is your daughter's relationship and your son's relationship?
- [24:41]
B
It's. It's good. He'll, like, text her. I'll be like, don't blow her up, like, teenager. Like, she's gonna get annoyed. But she. He'll like, we're in like a group text and like, with his little iPad, he'll send stuff and he's just like, so open. Just like, you know, like, comfortable. Around her like when she was staying here. Like they like he like hopped into the bed too. Like we're all there and she's like oh. Like you know, just like sarcastically like, like haha. But because he's just like so extra. But. But no, it's really good I think that. Or not I think but he gets really sad about like I wish that she lived with us and she. He asked a lot of questions. I don't really like ask him a lot like how he's feeling. I wait for him to come to me and like ask those types of questions and I, I mean I answer them fully and well at that point. Like I'll talk to him about like his feelings and things like that and I think he's just like also because he and his dad and I aren't together so that's like another layer. And he's like well why not? And you know, I miss her and things like that.
- [25:49]
D
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- [25:51]
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- [27:06]
D
And if you get a post purchase.
- [27:07]
A
Survey, be sure to mention you heard about Cozy Earth right here. Celebrate everyday love with comfort. That makes the little moments count. Yeah, and I don't think people talk about it a lot like you know, people that have children in the future. In the future after like, relinquishing a child, like, it affects the children that you end up raising. I mean, you know, think about that. No, you don't.
- [27:31]
B
Right?
- [27:32]
A
You don't think about how in the future it's going to affect the other children if you decide to have children.
- [27:36]
B
No.
- [27:37]
A
And it's like, you know, even with, like, you know, I feel like it's more Veda these days where she'll, like, ask me a lot of questions or, like, miss her and, like, things like that. Nova goes through periods of the time Raya doesn't really know who she is yet or anything, but. And I think. And I feel like that hurts me even more. Like, screw my feelings and my emotions towards it, but when I see my other children, like, hurting and missing her, and, like, that, like, affects when your.
- [28:03]
C
Parental claws come out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's hard.
- [28:10]
B
And then I start, like, blaming myself, like, oh, like, why did I do this? Like, it was, like, why? Like, yeah. And then you start, like, I don't know. For me, at least, I'm. I don't want to say regrets, but, like, man, like, this could have been different. Like, I could have done it. But.
- [28:23]
A
But I think that's normal. But I think that's normal. That's normal, Ashley. I think it's normal as, like, a birth mom to have those feelings. I. I mean, I have the thoughts all the time of, like, the what ifs or what if I would have made a different decision? What would my life look like? You know, it's. It's. Because it's unknown. We don't. Of course, in our mind, we're going to ask ourselves, like, how would my life look if it was different? And I think that's normal.
- [28:46]
B
And that's why I love talking to y', all, because I don't really have, like, anyone that I know that's gone through this and, like, nobody especially, like, going through it, like. Like with MTV and that whole experience. So, like, this is such a. Like, a very unique situation. And I know y' all situation is. Is different, but. Yeah, like, that's why it's so helpful to hear from you. I was just like, okay, like, I'm not crazy. Like, this is, like, normal stuff.
- [29:10]
C
Yeah. And that's kind of what I wanted. I wanted to go back because I feel like for some reason, I don't know who told all of us birth parents that we're not allowed to have regrets. And I think that is, like, it's such a.
- [29:24]
A
Like, it's like the culture people.
- [29:28]
E
And.
- [29:28]
C
I Can almost hear it when you're speaking, like, well, I don't want to say regrets, but you know, it's like, well, it's okay though. We are human beings who went through a, a crazy amount of trauma relinquishing our children. I think we are allowed to have regrets so young. I think, I think it's like, I think we need to give ourselves a little more grace than what society thinks that we should give ourselves, if that makes sense. Because it's like, oh, you can't say regret because that means you're. That's wrong. And it's like, well, I regret the information I didn't know back then. I regret not being well informed. I regret, you know, not looking into things deeper. There's a whole bunch of things that I'm allowed to regret and I'm allowed to have regrets. And simultaneously, simultaneously, like two things can be true at the same time. I can have regrets and also be grateful that the child that I relinquished is having a loving, healthy, awesome upbringing that I chose for them, you know?
- [30:17]
A
Right. Because I mean, we still carry a lot of pain. I like the way that I describe it to people is like, it's a different, like it's a type of, for me anyways, because everybody is different. But I feel like for me being a birth mom, I feel like it is like a pain and a sorrow that I will carry with me until the day that I die. I don't think it ever goes away. I think things are always going to be brought up at random times just because, you know, she's driving now. Oh, damn. That brings up emotions of me not being able to witness it or whatever the case is. Like, I feel like there's just something that I will carry with me throughout this whole entire life that I can't describe. And I wanted to know, obviously becoming a mom and deciding to parent later on in your life and it being like her full blooded sibling did that pregnancy or his birth or even raising him. Has it ever like brought up old emotions or like trigger maybe some grief from the past or anything? Have you noticed that? Because I know for me, when I got had Nova and she was born, I struggled really, really bad with postpartum depression and really severe anxiety. And now that I'm like years out of it, I can look back and be like, well, duh, yeah, it was bringing up old wounds. Like, did you struggle with any like mental health stuff after parenting?
- [31:35]
B
No. 100%. I, I definitely did. I don't think that I ever like attributed it to the adoption. But I guess that is something like, I probably should look into. I just thought, like, okay, it's just postpartum depression. I don't think I ever linked it that way because at least I don't think so looking. But I mean, I probably did, to be honest. But like, when. When, like, different, like, emotions come up, up, it is like, wow, like, y' all are so alike. Like, I get sad because, like, I miss her and things like that. But when he was younger, I know that there were feelings of wow. Like I. Like I said earlier, like, I could have done this, like, now that I have the chance to, like, raise him or, like, have a baby, like, from birth to, like, through all the stages. I don't know if that makes sense. I guess I haven't thought that deep into it, but, like, that makes sense to me. Like, wow, okay, maybe something I should look into.
- [32:31]
A
Yeah, I was just curious because I know the studies.
- [32:34]
C
Yeah, the studies are like, huge. Where they're like. And now we have enough data now to where we can actually look at what. What the impact that it has. And it's huge. I mean, the. The. It's like 30 times more likely for birth mothers to have suicidal ideation and have all these issues. And then it's pretty matched up with adoptees as well. So, like, now we're learning, like, you know, and it makes sense that postpartum depression in women who are. Are in post relinquishment is higher because it. Your body remembers the score, so it remembers this experience. And so, I mean, I think the more we talk about it and normalize it, like, maybe the better everyone will kind of get, you know, learn more. So that I think. And I think if we learn more, we can. We can help women in crisis more. And I think that's what it comes down to, because I think people think of it as, oh, I have a baby that I don't want. And let's be real, over 95% of birth mothers wanted their babies. So we know that, like, that's not true. Like, people like society and culturally, oh, you didn't want your baby. Get over it.
- [33:38]
A
It's not true.
- [33:39]
C
Not true. I mean, and so I think the more we talk about it and normalize it, the more we can actually help women in crisis. Because I think one thing that society likes to rob from you and Kate, specifically as birth mothers, is that you guys weren't in crisis and you were. And I think, like, honoring that and just acknowledging it and saying, yes, they were, and they felt Stuck and trapped. And it was a difficult situation. Like, we should have more social safety nets to support these women that find themselves in this crisis situation.
- [34:11]
B
Definitely. So, yeah, I mean, I did struggle very, very, very, very hard with my mental health. But again, I just thought that it was, like, postpartum depression. And it's funny. Like, I'm sure if my mom listens to this because she does this all the time. She's like, ashley, don't. This, this, and this. Of course, like, you should have told them, like, you did struggle, and you were like, oh, like, you know, struggled about, like, not having Cali at that time. She'll say, don't you remember, like, while we were filming? Or don't you remember, like, when you had Phoenix? It's my son. And I'm like, no. Like, I don't remember that at all. So, I mean, it is very possible. But that's such a good point for them to say, like, oh, like, you. You didn't want her. You know, you didn't want your child. That I had to get off of. A lot of the, like, support groups that were, like, weren't supportive at all. Not when they would say those things. But you mentioned something earlier that was that we should get over it and move on. Yeah. Like, a lot of that stuff, I don't know. I. I feel like there's a lot that people don't understand. Like, when I see videos of y' all or whatever, I don't know if y' all have seen. Like, I'll get on there. I'll be like, I'm never a keyboard warrior, but when we get on, I'm like, you have no idea. Like. Like. Like, I don't know. I. Like. Because they don't know. People just are uneducated and they don't know. Like, even as far as. Like, as much as y' all know, I still feel like I'm uneducated, maybe because I haven't, like, dived into, like, everything, like, how I feel and everything, and I kind of just take it as it comes because I think, like. Like you said, it's something you carry with you forever. And I always had the perception of, like, oh, you know, I'm gonna get. I'm gonna get over this. Like, I am gonna get over this, and one day it'll just be like, you know, everything's gonna be fine. And. No, like, it comes up in so many different ways.
- [35:50]
A
No, it does.
- [35:51]
B
Like, having more kids after. And. Yeah, another part of that is a lot of, like, people online like, to like, make fun of me for this. And I even like sometimes kick myself. It's like, how did you have another baby with the same guy who like left you the first time? So that was another part of it too that was super hard is like we weren't together when I had him. So it's just like, like that also added to it. Like, oh my gosh. Like I did this again. I don't have Cali. I don't. Like, what am I thinking? Like, I have like ruined these kids lives essentially. Especially like Cali. Like, what is she gonna grow up with? And so, yeah, there's just so much like a whole other layer of like complicated feelings that.
- [36:29]
D
But does.
- [36:30]
A
Does Cali and her birthday, do they have a relationship at all?
- [36:34]
B
They do. Like, she can text him and things like that. They used to talk, talk more often, but I don't know. I don't know how often they talk now. I don't think very often when she was here, they went to dinner.
- [36:46]
A
Oh, okay.
- [36:47]
B
Yeah, it's just them. Like he said, like, I think his girlfriend wanted to come or something. And she's like, no, I just want it to be us. So.
- [36:54]
A
Right, right. Like, hello. I just wanted to be me and you.
- [36:57]
B
Yeah. So she's very. Knows what she wants. Which is. Which is good.
- [37:02]
A
I was gonna say that's a good. That's a good thing, you know?
- [37:04]
B
Yeah.
- [37:04]
A
Yeah.
- [37:05]
B
Very good.
- [37:05]
A
Yeah.
- [37:06]
B
Yeah.
- [37:06]
A
And so because I wanted. You said I. Because I know you said like, how if your mom was listening, she would say like, duh, Ashley, you did struggle like with your mental health and stuff. Would you say that was like after your relinquishment? Because I remember for me it was like, it was super hard. I felt like I didn't want to, like, I didn't want to go hang out with friends. People think, like, just go out, just be like a normal teenager again. And it's like I couldn't remember Tyler being like, we need to go hang out with friends. And me feeling so depressed. And I was like, no, I should not be happy. I should not be going to hang out with my friends. Like, I felt was like I. It took a longer time to like go back into my life. And then I felt like when I did start hanging out with friends and like trying to be a teenager and do all the things then I felt like everybody was like, super immature. I don't know if you felt like that, but I just felt like nobody was just like. I felt like I was way more mature than everybody around Me, like, you couldn't relate?
- [38:03]
B
Like, yes. Like, yeah, that, that is so true. It was hard. So I remember MTV wanted to come film after I. Before I had gotten her back and after the, the hospital and everything. After, like she was with my aunt and uncle and we signed the papers. And I remember like, I used to be like so stressed out. Oh, I have to do my makeup and everything on camera. Like, I have to like get ready. And then like after that, I was looking like a hot mess. Like, I did not care. I did not want to get out of bed. I was like, just come film me in bed. Or I. They were like. I said I don't want to. And they were like, well, we have to come. And I was like, okay, then you gotta film me in bed.
- [38:37]
A
Right. This is really how I'm feeling, you know?
- [38:40]
B
Yeah. And then like trying to hang out with people after, I think I was. I knew I needed to go to school and I was like, you know what? Like, I want to do photography. I'm gonna go to New York. And like a lot of the like crew from MTV is from New York. So we're like, okay, we're gonna fly you out there, we're gonna shoot some stuff out there. You can visit some schools. And so I was like, wow, this is great. So I was just kind of like escaping. But then like, it was just like totally wrong decision at the time. And I think for me, yeah, it was like, nobody can relate to what I'm going through. Yeah. And I still was like making friends and going out, but I think I was just like partying a lot and like just, I don't know, it was all a blur. So.
- [39:22]
A
Well, I think just trying to like, protect yourself. Yeah.
- [39:26]
B
And just like, like do whatever to like not think about it and just like, well, you know what, going to New York is going to help. Like of all places. Like me, I'm from Texas. Like, I just thought it was cool.
- [39:38]
A
Completely different.
- [39:38]
B
Yeah.
- [39:39]
C
No, do you feel, do you feel like you had enough support though, after relinquishing? Do you feel you had enough support, like, just, I mean, in general, like therapy wise, so community, parents, anyone?
- [39:51]
B
I don't think so. Like, no offense to my mom, I just don't think that she like, didn't know how to support me. And I wasn't really big on therapy or counseling up until like the last, like, I don't know, 10 or so years, maybe like five years. I don't know. The last few years, like, I went inconsistently. But the last few Years I've been going regularly, so I don't think I ever really thought about going to counseling or anything like that. Maybe off and on. But I just. I don't. I think even to this day, like, I don't think anyone knows how to really support me. I don't even sometimes know how to support me so well.
- [40:27]
A
I always try to say, like, I feel like nobody knows how to support birth moms unless they've done it them and went through it themselves. You know, like, even same thing with, like, counselors. It's hard for me to connect with certain counselors based on, like, adoption and stuff, unless you're like, an adoptee or a birth mom or you've been a part of the adoption system itself, because it's like, you don't really get it. And I think that's what's hard. Like, I feel like there needs to be. Be more like, adoption specific therapists, not related to agencies or anything. Because it is hard to feel. It's hard to feel, like, understood when nobody has gone through it and they just don't. Nobody understands at all unless you've done it and been through it. It's so difficult.
- [41:09]
B
And that's. Yeah, that's like, what my mom said. She's like, I just want to say, like, I will never be able to relate to what you're going through. Like, I. And she'll say, like, what do you need from me? Like, what do you need? Needs support. For me to. For me to support you. I'm like, I don't know. Like, I don't know.
- [41:23]
A
Right?
- [41:23]
B
And that's, like, with anything, but I think that this, like, comes up, like, in so many different ways that I don't even realize until I sit there and I'm like, I don't want to make it about this, but I think it is, like, when it comes, like, making decisions, like, or like, deadlines, I have found, like. Like, I mean, I've always struggled with decisions, but it's like, it's. I feel like it's worse now, but. But like, deadlines, like, I have found, like, I get like, a bodily response like. Like when I am late to something, which I usually, like, running late, but. But, like, I, like, will freak out. I will, like, not freak out like crazy, but, like, internally. Yeah. I start rushing, and then I have to, like, tell myself with my son, like, Phoenix, like, okay, calm down. Like, it's okay. Like, everything's gonna be okay. Like, I have to tell that to myself and then be like, okay, buddy, let's just slow down and like, we'll get out the door here in like five minutes. But yeah, like, I. When it comes to deadlines, I found. Or like being somewhere even just something as small as that, like being somewhere at like 5 o', clock, I'm like, oh my God, I'm running late. I have to do this. Oh my gosh. Like, it feels like my whole world is like gonna collapse.
- [42:26]
C
Well, yeah, I mean, that actually sounds a lot like ptsd. I mean, from the fact that you had this major anxiety and pressure for a different deadline when you were feeling.
- [42:38]
A
Like you had to make.
- [42:38]
C
Yeah. Your brain wasn't fully develop that. So I feel like, I mean, me and Kate, we didn't even hear. We didn't even hear the fact that like no one even called our relinquishment trauma until years later. And so I think that goes back to the fact of trying to find support is not easy for birth parents because, you know, we're only 1% of all parents in society. Like there's.
- [43:04]
B
Is it really?
- [43:05]
A
Wow.
- [43:05]
C
1% of all women place their children. So that alone right there is a minority. And we. And we need to find a way to like create a bigger support network for, for women like that. Because I feel like I don't know how many things that Kate went through after ridiculous. And Carly and just not like you said, not realizing that. Like, I think this has something to do with it, but I don't know. I'm pretty sure it does. And it's like we need, like, we need more education around that because I think society, just like I said, they, they expect us. Get over it. You signed your rights away. It's. It's. You made this decision, like, deal with it. And it's like, well, we're human. It's not, it's not that cut and dry.
- [43:45]
B
Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [43:47]
A
I mean, it took. I mean, I was in therapy after Carly, like throughout my life, like periodically and randomly and stuff. And it literally took like my second inpatient treatment facility place where my counselor looked at me and she was like, like, your adoption was trauma. You relinquishing your child was traumatic. And she pointed out, because she said anytime you talk about her or your journey, you know, and her birth and stuff, you always. You'll say something hard, but then you'll rebuttal it with. But she has an amazing life and she's got all these things and. And I remember her looking at me and her saying, stop. Sometimes it sucks. And I want you to sit with that Sometimes it's hard and I want to cry, and sometimes I don't like it. She was like, quit always doing the butt. Like, just sit in it and feel it, because I wouldn't. I would never want to feel those hard emotions. I mean, who does? It's not fun.
- [44:39]
B
Right? Right.
- [44:40]
C
But.
- [44:40]
A
And I remember I called Tyler after, and I was like, I can't believe, like, I'm just having this first awakening. It's like, duh, that's traumatic. Like, you're literally handing over your most precious thing ever in life. Like, duh, hello. It made all.
- [44:54]
B
It just. Just.
- [44:55]
A
I remember it, like, crashing down on me and just making so much sense.
- [44:58]
C
Yeah, but I think that's also society. That's what they're doing. It's. It's like. It's like we're almost like they. Society expects us, like, to not look at it like a traumatic experience because we. There always is that. Yeah, well, but I made the right decision. Or. But they have a great life. Or. But this and. But that. And it's like, well, no, like, we're. We're allowed to sit here and we're allowed to be sad. We're allowed to regret. We're allowed to just feel, however, the. However, the way we feel about it. Like, I feel that there's too much. There's just too much pressure to, like, not be upset about it, to get over it. Yeah. It's not fair.
- [45:33]
B
And I feel like a lot of the stuff that's shown about it are, like, success stories. And it's like, not that. Like, it's not a success story on my. Like, I don't even. I wouldn't even call it a success story like, anything like that. But everything, it's. It's portrayed differently. Like, a lot of, like, adoption situations. Like. Like, if you. I don't know if that's just for, like, media or, like, advertising or what, but I don't think anyone, like, gets down to, like, the nitty gritty of, like, the aftermath and what it might. Like how that. How you might be affected or.
- [46:00]
A
Yeah. Or feel or like we said earlier, how you, you know, you don't ever think about, like, the children are reasoning in the future. You don't think that's not even a thought that passes your mind.
- [46:08]
B
Yeah, I literally did not even. The only thing I thought about was, oh, my gosh, like, I don't think I could ever love another kid the.
- [46:16]
A
Same kind of thing.
- [46:18]
B
Those are the things where, like, oh, my gosh, I'm gonna feel like I thought about her. She's gonna feel so guilty if I have another kid. Yeah. Or not. Not guilty. I'm gonna feel so guilty for having another one because she's gonna feel like, oh, why not me? Especially since we're in the same family still.
- [46:33]
A
Yep.
- [46:34]
B
Like, they're raising her in my family. So, yeah, those are the things I thought of. But, yeah, like, you don't think about how it might affect the kid you're about to have. Like, that wasn't even a thought in my mind of how it's gonna affect my son.
- [46:47]
A
No, no. I never thought about. I never. And I mean, I remember having those feelings, too, of, like, you know, is she gonna feel even more like, why me? You know? And I think that's natural for us to feel that way.
- [46:58]
B
Yeah.
- [46:59]
A
Is there anything, like, when you look back at just your journey that you would want to change or do differently or wish that you would have had throughout all these years?
- [47:09]
B
Oh, man. Somebody who could relate. But, I mean, that's. That's tough. Do differently. I think I would have been more vocal throughout, like, the filming and everything about what I was going through and that I wouldn't want to be, like. I don't want to say, pressured for a deadline. That's. That's on me. Like, nobody could force me to do anything. But I feel like I was kind of pressed for time to make a decision because, like, oh, we're gonna stop filming. Like, I have to make a decision by the end, so I feel like I should have taken more time. I don't know how much more time, really.
- [47:50]
A
However much you needed. Ashley, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, and I think it does. And it does kind of suck for you to have to, like, go back. Back in your brain like that, like, at the end of the day, like, you know, I. I don't. I don't like that you felt. Not even saying that they made you feel pressured or not. But I don't like the feeling of you feeling like you have to make a decision before filming's done. Because at the end of the day, if you still weren't sure, but you still had her. Them.
- [48:17]
C
Yeah.
- [48:18]
A
You know what I mean? Like. You know what I mean? Like, seriously, like.
- [48:23]
B
And I don't think, like. Like, I loved, like, my group that I had. It was. They were amazing. But, like, I mean, that's a whole other topic for another day. But, yeah, I. No, I. I agree. Like, I think that's just me as, like, a person. I think I just was like, I don't want to say people pleasing, but like, okay, I need to do this because, like, you know, I've been here, I've been here, I got her back and I'm back. Like, obviously things are not going well, so, you know, it just seems like the most logical decision. But. Yeah.
- [48:56]
A
Do you wish you would have had like more outside support while you were making this, these tough decisions?
- [49:02]
B
I mean, I don't know, like, I guess counseling, but at the same point, like, I don't know how, how much that really could have helped. Maybe, like it could have helped me process then to not have to process so heavily in the future. Like, maybe it could have helped like, like, like future wise. I don't know what the term would be, but I don't know that it would have helped in the moment because it's still like a heavy decision you have to make.
- [49:29]
D
Yeah, it is.
- [49:30]
A
Yeah.
- [49:32]
B
I don't know. I really don't know. It's hard to like, think back and like you said earlier, like, what, what could I have done different? What would my life look like? But yeah, I think the main thing would. To move more slowly and not feel so rushed, regardless of like what that, what, what was.
- [49:49]
A
Like, yeah.
- [49:52]
B
Who or what was responsible for that?
- [49:54]
C
Well, to be honest, from my point of view, I wish you would have had more support. I wish you would have had a team around you and not even just family team, like just anyone else outside perspective. I just wish you would have someone because in my opinion, from you going back and getting her and then coming back and having. You were clearly going back and forth in your own head. You were clearly not a hundred percent on one or the other. You know what I mean? I think that right there is the, that that's representing that this woman needs help. Like she, you know what I mean? So I feel like, yeah, being an adult, you can look back at it now and almost if you could picture yourself as a mother now and if, and if you were your own daughter, like, what would you have done back then? You know, how, how would you have supported differently? And I think it's important because I think birth parents had this feeling of like, we gotta walk on shells and make sure that we're not saying things that are too aggressive or making sure everything, you know, and it's like, but it's, but at the end of the day, it's like, no, you were women in crisis who did not have enough support. And it's, it doesn't, it's not to Fault anyone else? No, it's not to fault your mom or not to fault anyone else. It's just a reality of how adoption, how the adoption process is and how. And what goes through women's minds. And so, I mean, just from an outside perspective, I wish you would have had more support, honestly.
- [51:13]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you. I think, like, I had support knowing that, like, financially a little bit. Like, so I had to work. And I think I was like, like, looking back at my episode, you can see, like, ways that I was still acting like a child. Like, obviously I was like, oh, these dirty diapers. Like, it's just like my mom's like, here, you got to clean these diapers. And. And I was like, like, you're just having attitude and things like that. But so, I mean, I would have done. Done things differently, but I didn't. I'm not the same person that I am now.
- [51:41]
A
No, we were children. We were kids, you know?
- [51:46]
B
Yeah, I know. I have to think back, but, yeah, like, I don't think anyone really knew what to do. Gosh, I don't know.
- [51:55]
C
What would you. What would you tell a birth mother who's considering adoption right now?
- [51:59]
B
Ah, I thought about that earlier while we were talking, and I was like, oof, that's tough.
- [52:04]
C
Say she's three months pregnant. What would you tell her?
- [52:06]
B
I don't know which one to start with. Okay. There's a part of me that's like, look, know the facts. Know what you're doing. Like, make sure you're educated. Make sure you have a support system around you, whether that's like, me or, like, you know, if you have somebody in your family, just anybody, a counselor, anyone you can talk to, make sure that you have, like, thought out every single option, you know, scenario. Just all the facts. I'm sure you have all the facts and that you are 100 at peace and comfortable. And then there's the other part of me that's like, depending on the situation, obviously, because there's are some bad, bad situations out there. But be like, no, like, don't. Like, you know, like, reach out. Like, no, like, don't do it. I'll, like, I don't know, but I'll help you. But I mean, in reality, like, it's not something that, you know, straight. Like, a stranger can't come in off the street and be like, here, I'm going to support you and help you. So I. I think each person has to do what's right for them. But, man, I don't know. I think I would just tell them to be like, like, so sure. Cuz, like, I don't. I don't know how to phrase this or, like, word this, like, and tell me if this is, like, too much, but for y', all, like, I feel like y' all felt pretty confident, and y' all were told, like, a lot of these things, and. And it's like, your situation's very different now.
- [53:19]
A
Yeah, that.
- [53:21]
B
That makes me so frustrated, and I feel for y' all so much and like. Like, I love y', all, and I'm just like, make sure that's all.
- [53:31]
C
Well, I think that also goes down to, like, you know, we. We were very confident, but I think we, you know, we'd both be lying to ourselves if we said we did not have intuitive feelings about not wanting to go through with it. Me and Kate talk about it all the time that we were in the hospital, and we locked eyes when we held her. No words spoken, we just locked eyes and we. We had this intuition, like, we could just take her and get out of here and run away and just get out of here. And I think that's why when I. I always want to get birth parents perspectives of what they would tell someone that are maybe in their position, I always say, trust your intuition. Do not silence that intuitive feelings that you have. Because in my opinion, looking back now, it's not just intuition. It's.
- [54:20]
E
It's.
- [54:20]
C
It's a parental intuition. This. This is maternal. This is ingrained in your. In your DNA. This is. This is primal. And I think instead. Instead of ignoring it and trying to think logically all the time, I think you should honor that intuition. Because me and Kate, you know, we had all these feelings, and, like, we had other people saying, like, you know, this is the right thing. This is good for her. I'm like, we know this.
- [54:41]
A
But, like, why does this feel so blue? Whatever you choose is going to happen. Well, it's like, yeah, now we're 17, almost 17 years into it. I'm like, well, that's a whole bunch of fucking lies. And I now. You know what I mean? Yeah, Just changes. So I agree with you of, like, be a hundred percent sure. Get a support system.
- [54:58]
B
And I totally forgot about that. There's all. There's like, a ton of people around me like, this is good. This is going to be a good decision. But I mean, I think that that's how they know how to support you in a way. But then it also depends who's saying it. Like, I know there's, like, unbiased people. Like, like mtv. Like, I got really close with like a couple of my filmers and like my producer and she was so encouraging. Like she was unbiased. Like they didn't need it to. I don't think they needed to go one way or the other. I don't think think she did.
- [55:22]
A
No.
- [55:22]
B
And. And they were so emotional. Like there's things I remember that they were just like so emotional about it too.
- [55:28]
A
Yeah.
- [55:29]
B
And like in the middle of like filming, like, I'd see them and like there's so like, you know, makeup. Like it's, it was hard. So I know that they did have my best interest and they were like, like, yeah, this is going to be good for her. Like, like we, like. Because they see it from the outside too.
- [55:42]
A
Right?
- [55:43]
B
So, man, it's hard. I think another thing is just to like talk to someone that you really trust. Make sure that you're listening to people you really trust. Because somebody can say it's a good decision or some can say it's a bad decision.
- [55:55]
A
And, and I think it's important to hear those people out on both sides, you know?
- [56:00]
B
You know, like, and I think like the last thing I would say to them is like, it's gonna be okay either way. Like it's gonna be okay. Like it's, it's hard. Like either way it's, it's, it's gonna be difficult, but like you're, you're gonna be okay.
- [56:11]
C
Yeah. It's one of those, it reminds me of one of those things where it's like no matter what you do, it's gonna be hard. So just choose your hard. Like pick your heart because it's all, all every, you know, option you're gonna think about or take. It's gonna be hard. But I swear I feel like when I asked myself if I listened to my intuition, what I went through with it and it's like I can honestly say, no, I would not have. I was thinking, but I almost thought like it in a way it feels like self betrayal because I kept saying, okay, intuition, shut up. Because logically you don't have a good household. The parents are, are garbage. You know, they're not.
- [56:45]
A
Yeah. You don't know if it's like you're your mind or emotions playing tricks on you in that moment.
- [56:49]
C
Yeah. So it's difficult to like differentiate what, what's going on. But like, you know, parents know. I think mothers know and that's where even separate from birth dads us. But what I'm saying is that birth mothers, period, like, there's a, there, there's a reason why women carry children and bring them into the world because they have maternal instincts and wisdom that no other people can have. And so I think honoring it and trusting it is so important, like in it. And. Yeah, so. And especially with the way, you know, adoption works in our country, it's a lot different from other countries. And so I think just getting educated and just talking about it and learning, I think if me and Kate would have known half the stuff we know now, I mean, who, who knows what that would have.
- [57:33]
A
Yeah.
- [57:34]
C
For our decision making process. But I think the things that we can do now, 15 years down the line of being birth parents is say that out loud. Like, listen, listen. These are the things that you should, you should seek out and get help and learn about, read a book, talk about it. Because I think when we were going through what we did back back then, it was more or less like, you're doing the right thing. Just keep going. You're doing the right thing. And it was like such a, it's almost like, like, like minimizing what, what we were feeling. And so my thing is now is I just don't want any birth mom to be minimized and how they're feeling going through all this stuff.
- [58:09]
B
Love. Yeah. And that's, that's. I, I completely agree. And that's another thing. Like, if I could go back, I, Another reason I wish I would have been more educated is because the whole reason that I went on the show was to help other teen moms unplanned pregnancies, women who are like facing unplanned pregnancies. And. Yeah. So I wish I would have been more vocal and, and spoken out more. Not like spoken out against or for anything, just. Just like really been more vulnerable and sharing. I mean, I was pretty vulnerable, but even more so because there was a lot that I kept in that they were like, trying to encourage me to talk about. And I was like, no, like, I don't want to.
- [58:46]
A
Right.
- [58:48]
B
So, yeah, I definitely wish I would have shared more to hopefully like help more people.
- [58:54]
A
Well, and I think, you know, I think that's awesome. I mean, that's awesome. Of course. I mean, and plus, it's like, gosh, we were going through one of the hardest things of our lives ever. And then you throw adoption into it. It makes it 10 times even more complicated in cameras and all of. Yeah, right, right. Yeah. Like you said, you were already being vulnerable and sharing a lot. And it's like, of Course, sometimes we feel like, why I'm already sharing so much. I want to keep some of these things to myself, you know, I think that's natural.
- [59:20]
B
Yeah. And you have to share it, like, three times over. Get the complete sentence in.
- [59:25]
A
Right, right.
- [59:26]
B
It's like.
- [59:27]
A
Yeah, so what. I think one of my. Like, one of my last questions is, like, what do you hope for the future? What do you hope for the future of? Like, you know, what. What if it was, like, if it was all up to you and perfect for you, like, what do you hope for the future with you and Cali and your son?
- [59:43]
B
For the future, like, perfect. So she's 16. She'll be. Gosh, she'll be in college here in a couple years or, you know, whatever she wants to do. So I would hope if she were to, like, choose to move up here to, like, Dallas or anything that she would feel comfortable enough. I want to, like, create a space. Space for her. Like, get a bigger place, work super hard, get a bigger place and have, like, a place for her that she can come over and, you know, just be with us if she wants to and, like, make her home or, like, be around her family up here. Go to school if she wants to. I want to. Like, when I work hard and, like, I say, like, I'm working hard for my son, like, I'm also working for her, too. She, like, I want to be able to, like, take her to do things. Like, she loves K pop, so she wants to, like, there's this concert that she just got tickets to, and I want to be able to, like, do stuff for her and. And, you know, do more. So, yeah, that's what I hope for and that me, my son, and her can just, you know, whatever she's comfortable with. I would be, like, all four.
- [60:49]
D
Yeah.
- [60:49]
C
So when Ashley would be all for.
- [60:50]
B
He loves her.
- [60:51]
C
So in other words, in Ashley's perfect world, she. You just want your family to be together.
- [60:56]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [60:57]
C
That's valid.
- [60:58]
A
With whatever she's comfortable with, which I feel like that's how we are, too. It's like, whatever she wants, we're good with, you know, Like.
- [61:03]
B
Yeah, I was gonna ask y', all, too, the same. Yeah, Yeah.
- [61:06]
A
I think ye. For me and Ty, it's more or less like, whatever she wants, we want. No matter what that looks like and no matter how, if it's going to cause, you know, hard emotions, happy emotions, whatever it is, I'll take it for her. Like, that's all that I care about, you know, is I want her to be. I always say, like, at the end of the day, I want her to be a happy, whole, well rounded adoptee in whatever way that looks like. And I will do it no matter what it is.
- [61:30]
C
Yeah. Because I think birth parents, you have to kind of accept the fact that, that, you know, prepare yourself that the adoptee may come back and say, you totally ruined my life. Like, you totally messed me up. And I think that is a fair.
- [61:42]
A
Yeah, right.
- [61:42]
C
Whatever it is, it's a fair thing to kind of. Well, it's. It's actually, I kind of feel like it's our duty as birth parents. We relinquish this child who did not ask to be brought into this world and who is going to inevitably experience this separation trauma and this idea period. And so. So it is our duty to sit there with our hands folded, head bowed, and whatever they have to say to us at the end of the day is what they have to say to us, and we have to just, like, honor it. And so I think people get it confused. Like, oh, it's going to be a beautiful reunion. You're going to be. It's like, well, it's gonna be hard stuff. Yeah. So it's just a lifelong process, but I hope that that's what you guys get in the future. I hope you and your daughter and your son are around a dinner table together and just like Christmas mornings and just stuff. I want you to. I want that for you guys. So I hope it happens.
- [62:37]
B
Me too. Yeah. That's like. Also what's hard is, is because she is in the family. Like. Like when she came up here, me, her and my son all went to dinner and we were just like, it was chaotic. Like, they are, like, so alike. Like, they are so. It was so chaotic. And she's so com. Like, they're just like, oh, my gosh. Like. Like, y' all are. Y' all are something else. Like, y' all are crazy. But it was just nice to, like, have that. I don't. I don't want to say, like, normalcy, but sense of normalcy almost. And like, also, like, being so close. I am prepared for her to kind of take out those feelings on me someday. Hopefully she doesn't. Like, I pray she doesn't, but you never know. And like you said, I'm trying to, like, prepare myself if that ever does happen. Because, like, another thing is, like, I feel like, okay, like, I should be making more effort to see her more. I should be making more effort to fly her here more. And if I don't Then. Then it's like, I'm not, like, she. What is she actually thinking? But I'm, like, hoping that I'm doing, like, a good enough job to stay close with her, like, emotionally, that she can, like, express these things so well. She does get attitude and things like that.
- [63:45]
A
Well, I think because you're already worried about that, in my opinion, that means that you're doing it. You know, I feel like that's like. Have you ever heard when people say, like, if you're so worried about being a good parent, you're afraid that means you're already being a good parent? Because a lot of shitty, crappy parents don't even worry about those things? You know what I mean?
- [64:00]
B
Yeah.
- [64:01]
C
Yeah, that's a good point. The fact that you already have access and you. And your. The access to her to communicate with you is already open. I mean, you're already doing everything that you can do, right? I mean, you have the access you have. You know, she can contact you whenever she wants you. She's old enough now to where you can explain kind of, you know, more complex things that she'll be able to understand. So, I mean, in my opinion, I think you're doing everything. Doing everything.
- [64:25]
B
Right.
- [64:25]
A
Yeah. The door's already open for that.
- [64:27]
C
Yeah.
- [64:28]
A
I just. I want to say thank you so much for coming on. Thank you all and sharing your journey and your story, and I hope nothing but the best for all of you guys involved for the future. And, you know, I think it's important that we share all different types of, you know, birth parent stories and adoptees and all the things. So I just want to say thank you so much for hopping on and where can people find you? Where can they learn more about you?
- [64:55]
B
Yeah, my username has been the same since, like, day one, so it's just they can find me on Instagram, TikTok, Ashley Salazar and everywhere. It's the same. Yeah. Thank you all so much, though. It was my pleasure to come on. Like, it's always amazing to talk to y' all and just always rooting for y'. All.
- [65:13]
D
Well, you have.
- [65:14]
A
Well, and you have my phone number. Like, you know, I'm always here for you. I think it's important that birth moms have a, you know, a sense of connection somewhere ear and like, if you want to hear me about things I want to out about or whatever, sometimes.
- [65:26]
B
I just need, like, I'll always be a listening ear and sometimes, like, I need to just hear, like, perspective from somebody else where I just listen and.
- [65:33]
A
Well, please Do I'm not crazy, right? No, you're not. You're crazy. No, I know. Yeah. Like, my phone is always open for you too. Like, please, like, you're not. You're not a burden. And if you need somebody to talk to or bounce ideas off of, like, we're here.
- [65:47]
C
Or just event instead of say, this sucks so bad. I hate this.
- [65:49]
A
It's like, all right, yeah, whatever it is. I mean, me and you already had a little conversation about the, you know, the concert. I'm not going to get into details, but I told you what you're feeling. Yes, I'm like, it's totally normal. Right? Like, you know, so please, like, I'm always here for. I'm here. And both parents got sit together. Yeah, we do.
- [66:06]
B
We do. Yeah. Yeah.
- [66:07]
A
And again, thank you a little bit like, yes. Yes.
- [66:11]
B
Yeah. Whenever the. Everything was going on, like filming and everything and like placing her. So. Yeah, I definitely appreciate that and it's so nice to have someone who can like relate on, like on everything.
- [66:21]
A
Yeah. 100. Yeah, for sure. Well, you guys, thanks for listening to this week. Make sure to like and subscribe to our show. You can listen to us anywhere that you find podcasts and don't forget to check out our Patreon and our Facebook fan page. And we'll be talking to you guys next week.
- [66:42]
F
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F
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E
Hi, I'm Adam Rippon and this is Intrusive Thoughts, the podcast where I finally say the stuff out loud that's been living rent free in my head for years. From dumb decisions to awkward moments I probably should have kept to myself. Nothing's off limits. Yes. I'm talking about the time I lost my phone mid flight and still haven't truly emotionally recovered from that. There might be too many sound effects. I've been told to chill. Will I unclear. But if you've ever laid awake at night cringing at something you said five years ago, congratulations, you found your people. Intrusive Thoughts with Adam Rippon is available now wherever you get your podcasts.