Hope with Holly: Reclaiming Female Autonomy

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Cate & Ty Break It Down

Episode: Hope with Holly: Reclaiming Female Autonomy

Date: April 8, 2026
Hosts: Catelynn (Kate) & Tyler Baltierra
Guest: Holly (Hope with Holly)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the journey of reclaiming female autonomy and healing from religious and relational abuse. Catelynn and Tyler welcome Holly, the voice behind "Hope with Holly," to share her powerful story of escaping the confines of Christian fundamentalism, recognizing manipulation and abuse within religious and marital structures, and building an empowered, authentic life for herself and her children. The conversation covers Holly’s upbringing, her time in Christian nationalist circles, her deconstruction from faith, and how she now helps women recover autonomy, especially those impacted by religious and domestic abuse.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Holly's Religious Background and Early Influences

• Pentecostal Upbringing (01:44)
  Holly describes growing up in a strict Pentecostal environment, full of prophecy, speaking in tongues, and intense religious fervor.
  • Quote: “I grew up very Christian, but Pentecostal...prophecy, speaking in tongues, and slain in the spirit...which I thought was super fun. Besides the whole, you know, you're gonna die and go to hell if you don't accept Jesus." - Holly (01:44)
• Dysfunctional Childhood & Social Mobility (03:09)
  Born into poverty (“white trash”), Holly was motivated by a dysfunctional family background to seek stability and acceptance through religion and education.

2. Experiences at Liberty University & Christian Nationalism

• Culture Shock & "Chosen" Mentality (04:14)
  Going to Liberty University on scholarship, Holly encountered a culture that prized appearances and instilled a sense of specialness in its students.
• Christian Nationalism & Political Aspirations
  Involvement with Jerry Falwell’s Moral Majority shaped Holly’s worldview. She reflects on how the language around “saving the world” masked a deeper fundamentalism.
• Control of Female Autonomy
  Liberty’s strict rules and gendered expectations became formative, setting up later struggles in her marriage.

3. Marriage, Prophecy, and Loss of Autonomy

• Marriage Arranged by Prophecy (08:42, 10:09)
  Holly details being told by a prophet—during a church service—that she was to marry a particular man, despite strong personal reservations.
  • Quote: “A prophet in my church told me that I needed to marry [my husband]...I had just prayed the night before, like, God, this is not who I want to marry. You need to give me a sign. And the very next day this happens in church." (10:09-10:36)
• Suppression of Self (12:10)
  Holly ignored her intuition—reinforced by both family and community pressure—and married, feeling trapped by spiritual and social expectations.

4. Grief, Deconstruction, and Questioning Divine Authority

• Tragedy as Turning Point (18:07)
  The loss of her first daughter at birth was a catalyst for radical questioning and grief.
  • Quote: “I did everything right...married the man that he told me to, and this is how I get rewarded.” (19:56)
• Silencing & Isolation in Trauma (19:10)
  Church leadership urged Holly to hide her daughter’s medical condition—reinforcing shame and further isolating her.
• Cycle of Self-Betrayal (23:19)
  Repeated denial of her own intuition in favor of religious doctrine became a core theme in her healing work.
• Journey Through Progressive Faith to Atheism (26:31)
  Holly’s faith journey shifted from fundamentalism, to progressive Christianity (influenced by Rob Bell), Universalism, Unitarianism, and eventually to atheism/agnosticism.
  • Quote: “Now I wouldn’t say that I’m anything...I am whatever I need to be for that day, you know, I don’t need to have all the answers now. And that is such a relief, isn’t it?” (26:56)

5. Parenting for Autonomy & Inclusion

• Teaching Spiritual Choice (27:57, 28:16)
  Holly ensures her children are exposed to a spectrum of religious and secular ideas, prioritizing informed choice and self-discovery.
  • Quote: “I raised my children, teaching them all the religions...I want you to have a choice, because I didn’t feel like I had that choice.” (27:57)
• Supporting LGBTQ+ Children (34:06)
  Emphasizes the importance of acceptance and autonomy:
  • “Good thing I didn’t [indoctrinate], because now I have a transgender son and a bisexual daughter. If I had still had my head in the sand...I would have never accepted my children for who they were.” (34:06)

6. Recognizing Religious and Relational Abuse

• Defining Abuse (37:23)
  • Quote: “I define abuse as anytime somebody tries to control you, manipulate you, or neglect you. Those three things are huge factors, whether that's in religion or not.” (37:23)
• Religious Doctrine as Control (38:01, 38:42)
  • “It's not natural for a woman to submit, because if it was, why are you trying so hard to convince us to do it?” (38:02)
• Personal Anecdote—Obey vs. Kindness (39:48, 40:18)
  Holly shares a memorable story in which her husband insisted she write “obey” on her lamp as an aspirational reminder.
  • “He said, okay, you need to write 'obey' on yours. And I did it in tears.” (40:18)

7. Escaping and Healing

• Leaving the Marriage (41:02)
  After 20 years, Holly divorces and begins a new life of personal freedom.
  • “It was the best day of my life.” (41:02)
• Challenges of Starting Over (41:19, 41:32)
  Discusses the steep learning curve of independence—managing finances, property, and self-confidence after years of disempowerment.
• Helping Others Heal (47:04, 53:11)
  Holly hosts retreats, provides community, and teaches nervous system regulation and self-respect for women processing similar journeys.

8. Deconstructing Religious Narratives & Their Harms

• Weaponization of Shame & Control (43:40)
• Highlighting Institutional Abuse (43:04–46:45)
  • “They don't understand that their husband has been raping them and beating them for 20 years. And that's not abuse—they don't even know it's abuse.” (43:04)
• Religion as Justification for Harm (45:36-46:45)
  • “When you give your life to this man, the man that feeds you can also starve you.” (45:36)
• Societal Risks: Christian Nationalism, Policy, and Regression (42:50, 82:07–82:36)
  • Discusses the threat of Christian nationalism to women’s rights and democracy.

9. Redefining Community and Spirituality

• The Need for Community (75:00)
  • Holly organizes "Soul Sisters of Charlotte," fostering supportive, secular women's communities.
• Replacing Church with Authentic Support
  Emphasizes that belonging and healing are possible outside religious frameworks.

10. Science, Uncertainty, and Human Flourishing

• Embracing Science & Critical Thinking (47:04, 78:23–80:07)
  • Holly’s healing now integrates neuroscience, nervous system work, and evidence-based modalities.
• Living with Uncertainty (58:16, 78:34)
  • Importance of being at peace with “I don’t know.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I wanted to be a traditional wife so bad, but I just have a mouth, you know, I have opinions. And I am not that silent, submissive type woman, as hard as I tried to be.” – Holly (08:42)
• “If it’s God’s truth, the truth will stand up to any scrutiny.” – Holly (24:04)
• “I think the world is so much more colorful and beautiful when everybody is just their weird, crazy, freaky, unique self.” – Holly (36:01)
• “The Creator does not submit to its creation. I create life. Why would I submit to my boys one day—just because they have a penis?” – Holly (38:42)
• “If you put the definition of sin down to one word, it would be harm. Anything that causes harm to another person is sin.” – Holly (34:46)
• “Community is great. We co-regulate each other. Our nervous systems need a village.” – Holly (75:36)
• “Most Christians have not read the Bible all the way through. If they did, it would radically change.” – Holly (24:03)
• “Now I wouldn’t say that I’m anything. I would say that I am whatever I need to be for that day, you know. I don’t need to have all the answers now. And that is such a relief, isn’t it?” – Holly (26:56)
• “I think it's important we talk about this stuff even though it's uncomfortable.” – Kate (46:45)
• “The good news is: you're good, friend. You don't need saving. You weren't broken to begin with.” – Holly (91:51)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |:-------------:|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:44 | Holly introduces her upbringing and religious platform | | 04:14 | Experiences and perceptions at Liberty University | | 10:09 | The prophetic "arrangement" of Holly's marriage | | 12:10 | Holly’s internal struggle and sense of entrapment | | 18:07 | Loss of her first daughter and the impact on her faith | | 19:56 | Holly’s crisis of faith and realization of self-betrayal | | 26:56 | Evolution through progressive Christianity to atheism | | 27:57 | Raising children with spiritual autonomy | | 34:06 | Supporting LGBTQ+ children and resisting indoctrination | | 37:23 | Defining abuse within religious and personal relationships | | 39:48–40:18 | The “obey” lamp story—symbol of patriarchal marriage | | 41:02 | Freedom and relief post-divorce | | 43:04 | Abuse unrecognized: traditional wives and marital rape | | 47:04 | The shift from religious certainty to healing through science and nervous system work | | 53:11 | Providing women’s healing retreats and community | | 75:00 | Building secular, supportive women’s communities (Soul Sisters) | | 80:07 | The psychological need for religion—“The Denial of Death” thesis | | 86:46 | On why Holly speaks out against Christianity, and the balance of harm and help | | 91:51 | "Good news: you’re good." Holly’s message of intrinsic worth |

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Episode Takeaways

• Autonomy Can Be Reclaimed: Even after decades of indoctrination and emotional suppression, it’s possible to reconnect with your intuition, question harmful doctrines, and create a life rooted in choice and self-respect.
• “Sin Is Harm”: Holly reframes sin as anything that causes harm—a direct critique of weaponized shame and control in religious systems.
• Parenting for Liberation: Raising children with knowledge of multiple worldviews and modeling acceptance of identities (including LGBTQ+) is a central form of resistance and love.
• Healing Is Physical, Psychological, and Social: True recovery from abuse—especially religious or relational—blends science, embodiment (breathwork, nervous system regulation), and supportive community.
• The Power of Critical Inquiry: Reading foundational religious texts fully and examining their origins is transformative, both personally and collectively.
• Community, Not Control: The human need for belonging can be met without authoritarian structures—healing communities are springing up as alternatives to traditional church models.
• Freedom Is Uncertainty: It is OK to say, “I don’t know.” Faith in certainty can be replaced with curiosity, compassion, and growth.

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Find & Follow Hope with Holly

• Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, YouTube: @HopeWithHolly
• Retreat Program: See Holly’s links on her platforms for in-person retreats and virtual sisterhood communities.
• Trauma Queen: Holly’s collaboration on somatic healing with breathwork and nervous system regulation.

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This episode is a must-listen for anyone questioning their upbringing, seeking practical tools for deconstructing harmful beliefs, or wanting strategies for reclaiming autonomy and healing after religious or relational trauma. The conversation is frank, heartfelt, and generously peppered with both grit and hope.

Transcript

[Kate]

Why have I asked my h vac

[Holly]

guy I found on angie.com to change my grandpa's trachea tube? Because I was so amazed by how quickly he replaced our air ducts, I knew I could trust him to change Pop Pop's tube while I was on vacation.

[Kate]

Make it quick, young man.

[Tyler]

Aw.

[Holly]

See? Pop Pop trusts you.

[Kate]

I think we should call a doctor. Connecting homeowners with skilled pros for over 30 years. Angie, the one you trust. Define the ones you trust. Find pros for all your home [e-mail]. and, Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual, even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show.

[Holly]

Hey, everyone, check out this guy and his bird. What is this your first date?

[Kate]

Oh, no. We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird. Yeah, the bird looks out of your league. Anyways, only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Well, everybody, welcome back to Kate and Ty. Break it down. Today we have a very special guest, Hope with Holly. Thank you for so much for. For joining me for this. I've been super excited because I've followed you on Instagram for a while. I was. I was kind of a secret lurker for a minute, and then I was like, all right, this girl's cool, so I'm gonna. And yeah, I just. For people who are listening who don't know what is, like, what's your backstory? How did we get here? How did you end up going on social media and kind of sharing all the stuff that you do?

[Holly]

Well, so my premise of my platform is loving myself after relationship and religious abuse. So I grew up very Christian, but Pentecostal, like prophecy, speaking in tongues, and slain in the spirit and all of that, and. Which I thought was super fun. Besides the whole, you know, you're gonna die and go to hell if you don't accept Jesus, you know?

[Kate]

Right, right.

[Holly]

That was a little scary. But I went to Liberty University and got a degree in biblical studies and wanted to be a missionary and ended up marrying Jerry Falwell's best friend's grandson.

[Kate]

Oh, wow.

[Holly]

So I got. I became a Christian nationalist and very. Of course, that's not what we called it back then. And, you know.

[Kate]

Yeah. What did you call it back then?

[Holly]

Well, Jerry Falwell had a program called the Moral Majority, and so that's what it was, and that sounded delightful. Of course, like we want to be moral people, you know, and.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

And save the world, but we just were Christian fundamentalists, Christian events, evangelical Christians. And you know, I drank the Kool Aid because I grew up with an extremely dysfunctional childhood. Very poor. I have looked up the definition. We were definitely white trash.

[Kate]

And hey, I was born in the aisles white trash too.

[Holly]

So yay, look at us. I mean, my dad's garage was bigger than our trailer for sure. And we had like 30 broken down vehicles. And all of our family lived on one country road. And my grandmother lived with the. I don't know how old you are, but much younger than me.

[Kate]

I'm 34.

[Holly]

You're 34?

[Kate]

Okay.

[Holly]

Yeah, I'm 48. So my grandmother had a police scanner in her bed in her living room.

[Kate]

Oh, wow. Okay.

[Holly]

That's how crazy my five uncles were because we were like, somebody was always in trouble. Okay.

[Kate]

Right.

[Holly]

And so whatever you would consider white trash, that was my childhood. So when I went to Liberty, it was such a, like culture shock. It was like, oh my God. I was told when I got there that Liberty was. Had the most beautiful women in the America. That Playboy even said that we had the most beautiful women in America at that school.

[Kate]

School.

[Holly]

And I was like, oh my gosh. Well, then I want to go there because I want to be one of the most beautiful, you know. You know, they convince you that you're special and you're chosen to be able to go there. And basically I went there because I ended up getting a full ride scholarship. So I was just like, okay, great, you know, for academics and was going to get into politics until I started taking my political science classes and realized, oh, you can't get anything because I wanted to help people.

[Kate]

Right. And that's what I think. People get kind of messed up because when you talk about Christian nationalism and you know, there's this huge thing where, you know, they're, they're almost raising these children to. That's the goal is to get into politics, to try to change, you know that. Yeah. And so I think people get it and like you said, they label it differently to make it sound very like, oh, we're gonna save the world. And I think it's interesting because Liberty has a history. I don't know if you've listened to Liberty Lost podcast, but they talk about the maternity home that is still up and running there for girls who go there and are pretty much coerced into placing their children for adoption. And it's a whole thing. But if you haven't listened to it. Highly suggest it, but, you know, Liberty does have a. Does have a reputation. And that's. So you. You're probably in there like, oh, this is. Life is gonna. I mean, it's a huge thing to get into Liberty.

[Holly]

Yeah, it was. And I was so. You know, I grew up in such dysfunction. Both my parents have been married three times. My stepdad tried to kill my mom and only got three years in jail. There was a lot of domestic violence, a lot of sexual assault, alcoholism, drug, poverty. We were evicted, like, 13 times growing up. So when I went to Liberty, and by the way, when I was there, it had a very strict dress code. You know, all the girls had to wear dresses and skirts. The boys had to wear a shirt and tie, and their back of their hair couldn't hit the collar. And so everybody looked the part. Everybody looked safe. Everybody looked great. And I actually had a really great experience there based on my limited knowledge of what I knew at the time. It wasn't until I got out of Liberty and I became an abstinence until marriage instructor because, okay, I waited until I got married to have sex, which is a miracle in and of itself, but I was bound and determined to be the good girl and the Proverbs 31 woman that they wanted me to be and that I needed to be. And I volunteered in my church seven days a week. I was assistant youth pastor. I was prophetic team leader. I was a healing room minister. I was the young married couples leader. I was very.

[Kate]

So you were in it? In it.

[Holly]

100% in it. I was going. I was the girl carrying her Bible, going door to door, knocking on doors on Halloween night just to tell people that, you know, wow. You know, that particular really sticks out for me. Like, really, Holly, you did that? Oh, like, I look back at what I was then, which was I graduated college in 1999 and got a married. Got married the week after I graduated.

[Kate]

Oh, wow.

[Holly]

Jerry Falwell's church, because we got it for free because.

[Kate]

Right.

[Holly]

Of his grandfather. And once I. I got very involved, you know, pastoring in the church and stuff for quite a few, many years. And what changed for me was the man that I married was a man that the prophet in my church told me that I needed to marry.

[Kate]

Oh, interesting.

[Holly]

Yes, I was.

[Kate]

Did you have any reservations before getting married?

[Holly]

Oh, my gosh.

[Kate]

Okay.

[Holly]

Dead set against it.

[Kate]

Wow.

[Holly]

We had started to date in Liberty mostly because it was full of Baptists, and he and I were one of the few that were like, Pentecostal and believed in spirit speaking in tongues. So we grab. We went to the same off campus church and gravitate toward each other and we started to date. And I realized a few months in, oh, this is not, this is not a good fit. You know, this is, he is, he definitely wants that traditional wife.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

And, and I wanted to be a traditional wife so bad, but I just have a mouth, you know, I have opinions. And he. I'm not that silent, submissive type woman, as hard as I tried to be. And I did not want to marry him. But then a prophet in my church that I did not know he was just.

[Kate]

And can you. For people who don't know what is a prophet? Like, what a. What would you consider be a prophet in your church?

[Holly]

So these are people that there are different. The Bible talks about, there's different gifts of the spirit. And some have the gift of prophecy, some have the gift of speaking in tongues. Some have the gift of servanthood. We all have different gifts. So a prophet is somebody who is supposed to be able to hear from God and relay that message to the people, which let me tell you, like, that's a huge freaking responsibility. And it's a huge.

[Kate]

Yeah. I mean, that actually creates a lot of power. I mean, for, for, for these people who claim to be the prophets. I mean, that's a huge. If you're raised in that kind of environment, I mean, that's a huge, like, it's almost the, the amount of power that they have is almost scary because they can say anything. And then of course, you being this person trying to live this lifestyle and you take what they say as, oh, my God, this is God speaking to me through him. I mean, that's a huge thing.

[Holly]

Not only that, but as a woman in the church, we are supposed to, you know, respect the male leadership and what the men say in the church. And so he was just a random prophet from Texas, I guess, and he was visiting our church and he called me out and said, brought me to the front and he said, the man that you've been praying about is the man that God wants you to marry. Consider this as your confirmation from God.

[Kate]

Wow.

[Holly]

And I had just prayed the night before, like, God, this is not who I want to marry. You need to give me a sign. And the very next day, this happens in church. So. And by the way, I'm 20 years old. Right?

[Kate]

Right.

[Holly]

My prefrontal cortex has not developed.

[Kate]

Right.

[Holly]

And my mother was sitting there, my whole family, and you know, as born and raised white trash and poor. She was thrilled because she knew that this man was. Was, you know, who his grandfather was, what connections we had to Jerry Falwell and the church and how successful they were and wealthy and stuff.

[Kate]

So, I mean, they were considered. I mean, if you. If you look at it like a old, old royal hierarchy, they were pretty. Yeah, they were up there.

[Holly]

So, yes, 100. You know, Billy Graham, Jerry Falwell, they were good friends and of course had their TV show. And my father in law actually did the camera work for Jerry Falwell's program and stuff. So I couldn't deny that this is what I was supposed to do. And my sister, however, she was not a fan.

[Kate]

Interesting.

[Holly]

Yeah. Of this man.

[Kate]

And was she. Was she in the same faith? Was she in the same kind of.

[Holly]

Okay, she was, but she did not like him. And she came to me many times and was like, you don't have to do this. And I was like, I have to do it. Like, how do I hide from God?

[Kate]

Right?

[Holly]

Like, I will be running from God the rest of my life. How do I do that? Even the night before the wedding, she came and she was like, we can get in the car. We can drive. And I was crying and I was like, no, no, I have to do this. And I did. Got married in Falwell's church and went on our honeymoon. And I immediately knew I made the worst mistake.

[Kate]

Oh, no.

[Holly]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

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[Kate]

I mean, how did you know? How, like, how did you, when did it hit you?

[Holly]

Well, first of all, not sexually compatible.

[Kate]

Okay. Like you're like, oh, red flag number one.

[Holly]

You know, I had waited my whole life, right? I was so excited and I am a high drive woman and he was not a high drive man. And it was not, you know, it was just not something he was interested in. Our whole marriage for 20 years.

[Kate]

Wow. 20 years. Oh my God. Wow. I didn't realize. So it was 20 years of this.

[Holly]

20 years of this.

[Kate]

Wow.

[Holly]

But also I saw his true nature because at liberty, you were not allowed to be alone with somebody of the opposite sex. You were not allowed to spend the night over you had to like, sign out and stuff at a married couple's home. So I had never spent the night with him. I never spent a prolonged period of time alone with him. So the honeymoon was the first time. And I just saw how we move through life so differently, you know, he definitely moves through life, you know, like a rich, conservative white man would with privilege, you know, and people need to do what I say. And I moved through life much more humble. And as a woman, you know, I was the help mate. And so it was just very patriarchal. I want to be very. Yes, I want to be careful about what I say because we do have four children together. But yeah, I was never happy. And quite frankly, neither was he in the marriage. It was more like a business partnership. I'm gonna make the money and provide for the family. You're gonna stay home and have my children and raise them and be the trad wife that you need to be. And I did. I did.

[Kate]

So you had four. Says you had four children. And so were they. Were they spaced out? Like whether pretty quick after one after another or was it spaced out? What are the.

[Holly]

I have a. I had four children in three years because I had a set of twins and. But let me rewind this story because here's the really important part. So I've already was disappointed in God by me having to marry this person that we just did not get along. He did not like me, let alone love me. I was too outgoing, too opinionated, too. Too much hair and makeup, you know, too. Too much of everything. And he didn't like that. But our first daughter died at birth.

[Kate]

Oh, no.

[Holly]

And that's what broke me open. Tyler, I. We knew. I knew. When I was 20 weeks pregnant, I had an ultrasound and found out that she had a rare type of down syndrome and she was missing her esophagus. When the doctor told us this, we immediately went to our pastor and talked to him and what he said next to me was, do not tell a soul. Don't tell anyone that you have this incredibly high risk pregnancy, because if you name it, then you claim it. I don't know if you've ever heard that term before. In the Pentecostal Church, they believe, like, if you speak it forth, it's going to come true. So don't speak about it at all. So I told my mother and my sisters, but nobody else knew.

[Kate]

Wow. So you sat there for that the rest of your pregnancy with that. Wow.

[Holly]

I was on bed rest with. And just with an incredible risk that this is happening. With nobody to talk to about it. We did go to some more prophets to get them to pray for us. And all of them said, God's going to be glorified. The pregnancy is going to. He's going to heal her. The pregnancy is going to go well. He's going to be glorified, and you're going to proclaim his name to the nation as a result.

[Kate]

Wow.

[Holly]

When she died, I was 35 weeks pregnant. It's. It broke me so bad, you know, because I was saying, like, I did everything. I don't. Can I cuss on here?

[Kate]

Oh, yeah. We said

[Holly]

I did everything right. Like, I didn't have sex until I got married. I got my degree in Biblical studies. I gave my career to God, and I was, you know, absence until marriage instructor. And in the church 24 7, totally sacrificed my life for God, married the man that he told me to, and this is how I get rewarded. And then I also realized the prophet was wrong about me marrying this man. He and I never got along. This was not the relationship. Look, if I'm going to submit that he damn well better be treating me like Christ treated the church, you know, and loving sacrifice, you know, like being a good man. And he was great provider. He was a phenomenal provider. And he never hit me. And growing up white trash, that's what I thought abuse was, right? Only if they hit you. But there was a lot of other

[Kate]

controlling things, emotional abuse.

[Holly]

Yeah. And neglect happening in our marriage. So. So I knew this. And then, of course, I had this. I had this beautiful daughter, that. Which I named. Her name was Monroe. And because I loved Marilyn Monroe. Even though I was this devout Christian, I loved Marilyn Monroe. Oh, she had a fat.

[Kate]

That's. Yeah. That's kind of ironic, though, how you were like, you know, I'm going to go to the. I'm gonna do all these things. Then you still had this, you know, attraction almost to a radically feminine woman who didn't. Yeah, that's. That's interesting. Yeah.

[Holly]

Yes. Because my mother was like that. My mother was very confident, thick woman that pulled tail like nobody's business. It wasn't good tail. It was not quality tail, but it was tail, you know, and so I had that with this example of my very confident mother. And then I have Liberty telling me, no, be quiet. Make yourself smaller. So I was constantly living with this dichotomy of how to be a woman. So when my daughter died, I was like, that's twice y' all got it wrong.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

Said, this is the man I was supposed to marry you said that my daughter was going to live. Now I'm going to. You're gonna hear, you're gonna hear from me, you know.

[Kate]

Right, right.

[Holly]

All the questions that I had in Bible school and you know, as a pastor that I would go to my professors with, like, this doesn't make sense in the Bible. Why is this, that here's a contradiction? Because I wanted to know because I was going to be a missionary and I thought as a missionary and as a pastor, I need to have all these answers.

[Kate]

Right.

[Holly]

So. And they didn't. They would just say to me, this is where you need to have faith. Bible says, lean not on your own own understanding and trust God. You know.

[Kate]

Interesting. So they never had any kind of answers for you? More or less. Like, pretty much what it sounds like is they pretty much just said, stop asking those kind of questions.

[Holly]

Yeah, I mean they did their best to do some mental gymnastics to, and apologetics to like try and make it make sense. And I'm like, yeah, that does not make sense. Yeah, you're basing that off of an assumption. Not truth, fact, history, science, any, you

[Kate]

know, proof which has, which has to be so difficult because I don't think people understand the amount of self betrayal, continuous self betrayal, you to have to do to yourself in order to fit into this like, box that they want you to be in. Which is I think kind of the foundation of where religious abuse even starts from. Because you're constantly forced to minimize what your intuition is telling you.

[Holly]

Yes.

[Kate]

And that makes you not trust your own intuition. And, and it just creates this whole, I mean, cycle that I think people don't really understand it if they're not in, if they don't know enough about the fundamentalism culture, you know.

[Holly]

Yeah. And most Christians have not read the Bible all the way through.

[Kate]

That's very true.

[Holly]

And if they did, it would radically change. And if they studied how it was created and who wrote it or that we don't know who wrote it and when. I mean like the first. And you probably know this, I know you had Monty made her on here. Yeah. Amazing. You probably know that the first document of the New Testament wasn't written until 50 to 80 years after Jesus died. There was nothing written while he was alive. So I started asking all those hard questions and I couldn't go to my, I, I did email college professors that, you know, I would have become friends with and they still didn't have the answers. And until this point, I was being told, you should not read Anything that's secular, meaning written by a non Christian, because that is going to be the devil poisoning you, of course. And I just thought, look, if it's God's truth, the truth will stand up to any kind of scrutiny. Scrutiny. So I started reading other people first. I started with progressive Christians. I started with. One of my girlfriends, quietly told me. She's like, you know, maybe you should read this book by my cousin that he just wrote. You might actually really like it. And her cousin was Rob Bell.

[Kate]

Oh, right. Okay. Okay.

[Holly]

And I was like, wow. Okay. There are Christians that aren't so rigid and aren't so prideful, because I gotta be honest with you, I was so prideful as a Christian because I thought, now I have all the answers.

[Kate]

Right, right.

[Holly]

And growing up in such dysfunction, having the answers felt so. Having that certainty. And this, of course, is why people fall into religion so much. They want that certainty.

[Kate]

Yep.

[Holly]

And they want somebody to tell them. And of course, this is in the early 2000s. There was no Facebook yet. There was no.

[Kate]

Right, right.

[Holly]

The Internet was very small. There was not a lot. I was at the library all the time, you know, reading through all these people. People's books and trying to figure this out. And it was. It was a process for me. So I became like a progressive Christian. And then.

[Kate]

Okay.

[Holly]

And then a unitary. A Christian Universalist, which believed that everybody goes to heaven, there's no such thing as hell. Then I became like a Unitarian Universalist. Then I became a straight up atheist.

[Kate]

Okay. And which you. That you're following the. Yeah, that's usually how deconstruction works.

[Holly]

And now I wouldn't say that I'm anything.

[Kate]

Right.

[Holly]

I would say that I am whatever I need to be for that day, you know, I don't need to have all the answers now. And that is such a relief, isn't it?

[Kate]

It's. It's freeing. It really is freeing. It's a. It's a. It's what liberation and freedom. It really feels like.

[Holly]

Yeah. And I raised my. I ended up having four children in three years, which I don't recommend. That's wild.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

It's like, totally crazy. But because I had a stillborn daughter and I had a miscarriage right after that, you know, the doctors were like, if you're gonna have children, you need to do it now because you're not getting any younger.

[Kate]

Right, Right.

[Holly]

So. But I did not mean to have twins. That. That was like, dang.

[Kate]

Yeah, I bet. I bet it was.

[Holly]

You know, And. But then I got my Tubes tied. I was like, lock that up.

[Kate]

You're like, okay, we're all done here.

[Holly]

Because pregnancy scared me the whole way through. I lost one in the beginning, I lost one in the end, and I just sucked the joy out of it.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

But I raised my children, teaching them all the religions, from Judaism to Buddhism to Hinduism to Jewish to Muslim to Christianity, like you. I want you to have a choice, because I didn't feel like I had that choice.

[Kate]

Right.

[Holly]

You know, when you're raised in it and then you go to liberty and everybody's telling you, this is it. And when you're. When you don't have social media or podcasts like this telling you otherwise, you believe what your community tells you. And I grew up in a really small country town. Like, my graduating class in high school was 1666 people.

[Kate]

Oh, wow.

[Holly]

So everybody was a Christian.

[Kate]

Right.

[Holly]

And even then, I still rocked the boats. I. Of course, for example, you just.

[Kate]

You just. You just had the spirit in you. You just. You just. You were born with it, I'm assuming, because. Yeah, yeah.

[Holly]

Call it a rebellious spirit.

[Kate]

A rebellious spirit, yeah.

[Holly]

But I call it a truth seeker. You know, for example, when I was in high school, my senior year, I was president, student government, which meant that for our prom. I don't know if you had this, but we had this grand march where at prom night, all the couples walked out on stage while all the parents sat in the audience and took pictures. And.

[Kate]

Oh, yeah, no, no, you never had that.

[Holly]

And all the parents were in the audience, and we walked out and then left and went to prom, and they got to have their little pictures because I was the president, student government. I got to walk out first. Representing the school. And I walked with a black man. Holy smoke.

[Kate]

Oh, wow. Was there. Was there not a lot of interracial couples, I'm assuming, in your town?

[Holly]

Not a lot. Our town was divided by East. East street was the street that divided the black community from the white community. And the. When my. The principal found out, he called me into his office, and he was like, absolutely not.

[Kate]

Wow.

[Holly]

You're gonna walk out first. You're representing our school and our town, and you're gonna walk out with a black guy? And I was like, wow. Yeah. Because I didn't understand racism. Some of my dearest friends were amazing black women and still are to this day, really. And it didn't make sense to me. And the. I was also Ms. Delaware Fire Prevention Queen. And so the head of the fire department called me, and he was like, nope, you cannot do this. You're representing us.

[Kate]

Wow.

[Holly]

My uncle called me and threatened my life. I got lots of notes in my lockers calling me horrible names, and I decided, okay, I'm gonna do it anyway.

[Kate]

Good for you. Yeah.

[Holly]

I do have. I. I also. I have a Down syndrome sister.

[Kate]

Okay.

[Holly]

So I grew up just rooting for the underdog. I grew up with people bullying her and standing up for her all the time. So I just have this innate thing inside of me where I just stand up for people that are oppressed.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

And I did go to prom with Kashay, and he was a perfect gentleman, and it was wonderful. Better than any of my other prom nights. So I do have that thing in me that's going to question, you know,

[Kate]

And I think that's. That's probably what led you. I mean, the fact that you raise your kids, I call it, like. I tell. I tell my children the same thing. I got them a book by David McAvie. I don't know if you know that, but he made a children's book that kind of explains all the different religions. And so that's my daughter, actually. Her first experience with being bullied was a child asked her, do you believe in God? And she just said, I don't really know. I mean, she got ridiculed for it in school, and that was when my light bulb went off, and I said, whoa. Like, we're not. We're not doing this. Like, I can't believe that the first time that my child is bullied is because of something like this. When, you know, when I was a kid, no one ever talked about this stuff at that age. No one cared if you were. Whatever. So I thought it was so shocking to me. And so I got. I got her the book. And then we started, you know, going through the different gods and goddesses and time periods of when they, you know, worshiped and all this other stuff. And. And she came out of it, and I told her. I said, you know, and she asked me, why did you do that? And I said, honestly, I. I call it, like, spiritual autonomy, because this is. We need. These children need to have autonomy when it comes to their spirituality.

[Holly]

Yes.

[Kate]

And spirituality can be fulfilled through religion. Through religion or not. And I explained to her that there's multiple ways that you can create a spiritual identity outside of a religious system. And I think it's so interesting because I. You know, the culture in this country lately is just. I see it, like, getting really radical, and it's. And that's why I'm, like, all Right. Listen, I'm raising. This is my, you know, we only get one shot raising these kids. And so I'm like, I need to make sure that they understand more than I think I even thought to understand when I was her age, because it's.

[Holly]

It's just.

[Kate]

It's more in their face, I feel like, nowadays. Yes. And so, you know, you explaining that you. You raise your children completely different, I think goes to show that when you learn, when you learn more, you do better. And so, like, I mean, that's what we have to do as parents. Oh, okay. He wasn't okay? Yeah, no, I. I would assume.

[Holly]

So I told him, I said, look, if you want to take them to church, you are welcome to take them to church. I will not stop you from doing that. You can teach. Of course you want. I will teach them what I want. Autonomy. Right. But of course he didn't. He wanted that to be my job, that, you know, you teach them those things. This is why I married you, you

[Kate]

know, so what a way to cop out.

[Holly]

And good thing I didn't, because now I have a transgender son and a bisexual daughter. And if I had still had my head in the sand with all of that judgment and beliefs that I had, I would have never accepted my children for who they were, you know?

[Kate]

And the sad fact is that your children might not be alive today because of that. I mean, so many, so many of these kids. And that's why when people talk about it, I'm like, listen. It not. No belief is worth the child not living. So, you know, like, if you're going to prioritize a belief system over this child being alive or not, it does. It.

[Holly]

Yeah.

[Kate]

Doesn't make sense to me.

[Holly]

And I believe, like, if you put the definition of sin down to one word, it would be harm. Anything that causes harm to another person is sin. And how is being trans or bisexual harm? Come on, give me a break. And my son has all of these amazing, wonderful, other, you know, gender fluid, non binary friends, and they're wonderful people. And they're, like, so open minded and so amazing. And plus also, literally, like, I am extra. Like, I am bougie. I have. I have fake tits, I had tummy tuck, I've got long hair and I've gotten eyelash extensions and stuff. I wouldn't want anybody to ever tell me to be different.

[Kate]

Right.

[Holly]

Right now I want to be exactly who I want to be. So why would I ever want to make other people not be who they are? Not only that, but cause, like, tremendous Shame in them.

[Kate]

Right.

[Holly]

No. So I just want people. I think the world is so much more colorful and beautiful.

[Kate]

It is.

[Holly]

When everybody is just their weird, crazy, freaky, unique self.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

Like, let your freak flag fly as much as you want. It makes it so much better and more colorful.

[Kate]

It does. It makes the world way better, in my opinion. That's why I, you know, that's why I, you know, I just. This whole religious indoctrination to children is really. It's. It's not. It's just not something I agree with. I just feel like, you know, it. What a disservice it is to the children, honestly. Well, yeah. I mean, and to be honest, I think your experience, your first 20 years of marriage, all that had that. That was from that being implemented inside. And that's just like, look at what has happened. Look what can happen when it's. When it's taken advantage of and used as a tool of abuse. And, and it's. I. I want to talk about. Because I don't think people. A lot of people that are in it don't. How do you recognize when it's religious abuse? And how do you reckon? Like, how do you. I. There's so many people that I know of that I'm like, wow, like, their husbands will say something to them or they'll, you know, And I'm just like, I just get this weird, like, oh, God. Like. And I don't want to. I'm not the one to say, hey, like, you know, don't listen to him or don't do that. But at the same time, it's like, how to. How do you help people recognize and see these things?

[Holly]

Well, so I define abuse as anytime somebody tries to control you, manipulate you, or neglect you. Those three things are huge factors, whether that's in religion or not.

[Kate]

Right.

[Holly]

It can happen anywhere. And. And it does. So if some. If this doctrine is controlling me as a woman and telling me you are less than. They wouldn't say that. They would say a much more beautiful thing, like, you have a different role and everybody needs to do their role. And that's not true.

[Kate]

Right.

[Holly]

And it's not natural for a woman to submit, because if it was, why are you trying so hard to convince us to do it?

[Kate]

You know, oh, I've gotten a lot of controversy when I've mentioned that I said, you know, and it's funny because most of the. Most of the heat that I get is from men when I said, oh, well, men are naturally more submissive and naturally crave. It more than women ever have. And the reason it's proven throughout history, I mean, or else we'd have more women in the army. We would have more women in these role. They're not. And the reason why it's proven is because there's. So you wouldn't have to make laws and stuff like in doctrines to suppress if they were naturally supposed to be submissive.

[Holly]

So once I had children, I realized the Creator does not submit to its creation.

[Kate]

Absolutely. Yeah. Why?

[Holly]

I create life. I.

[Kate]

Absolutely.

[Holly]

Six lives and nurtured four from my body. Why would I submit to my boys one day? Like, just because they have a penis.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

They started off right without one. They started off yeah, just like mine, you know, my body, you know. And so it just blew my mind that we were being forced and being told to be quiet. And that's what my husband would tell me all the time. Like, you have to obey. That is your one job is to obey. And little side story. When we first got married, I bought these two lamps to put on our bedside table. And I said to him, I said, you know, I'm going to write a word on each of our lamps that, like, by osmosis, maybe we will learn to do this better.

[Kate]

So what maybe or what was.

[Holly]

Yes, like what? And I asked him, what word do you want me to write on my lamp that you would like me to do better at? And I'll tell you what word I would like to I'll write on your lamp. And he was like, well, what word do you want on mine? And I said, I just want kind. Like, I just want you to be kind. Kind to me. You know, because there was no emotional safety, you know, in our relationship. And he said, okay, you need to write obey on yours.

[Kate]

Oh, wow.

[Holly]

And I did it in tears.

[Kate]

Oh.

[Holly]

Like.

[Kate]

Because you knew it. It didn't. It did. Yeah.

[Holly]

There was all this cognitive dissonance and I just couldn't understand, like, why do I have to obey you? You know?

[Kate]

Right, right.

[Holly]

You're. I mean, he was smart. He's very smart. Smart, intelligent man, but intellectually intelligent. You know, there's lots of intelligence, emotional intelligence, physical intelligence, spiritual intelligence. So many other ways, but that was my life for 20 years.

[Kate]

Wow.

[Holly]

And fortunately, about eight years ago, we got divorced and it was the best day of my life.

[Kate]

Well, I bet.

[Holly]

Yes. And I bought 15 acres of land and.

[Kate]

Oh, yeah.

[Holly]

Moved to the country with my four kids and have freedom and it's wonderful. Certainly there are other struggles, right?

[Kate]

Like, yeah, well, of course, you know,

[Holly]

there's financial struggles and figuring out as a grown ass woman I know how to, how do I pay taxes? Because I had never done that before.

[Kate]

Right.

[Holly]

How do I make these investment decisions and how do I keep a budget, you know, because I never had control of the money most of the time.

[Kate]

And that. And that. See, that's what I mean when it's, it's actually a disservice. It's a disservice to like I have three daughters that I'm raising. So I'm like, I'm like, I'm like trying to like beat it into their head that this is, you know, this isn't the way it has to be. And anyone that tells you different are lying to you. And I like, it's a perfect example of what a way to, what a disservice. I mean honestly, to be. And honestly, what does that do to your own self esteem? Like, and honestly, what does it do when you're thinking of leaving and knowing that you don't know these things? I mean these kind of things keep women stuck in this situation because everything's just drowned and pulled out of them. And it's unfortunate. And that's kind of why I'm like, why when I'm seeing this rise in this Christian nationalism, in this, in this red pill manosphere, I'm just like, what the is going on? It's 2026. How are we, how are we here in this place in society? I just, it's, it's mind blowing. And I, and I will say I feel like it's getting more extreme.

[Holly]

Yes.

[Kate]

Because it's being pushed into a corner that it has nowhere else to go. So it's gonna, it's gonna get a little gritty and destructive and nasty before we finally just break.

[Holly]

Yeah.

[Kate]

And be like, okay. You know what I mean? So that's kind of like where we'

[Holly]

right now losing control thanks to social media. Look, there's pros and cons to social media, but of course I have women book calls with me. I'm going to try not to get emotional and, and they will say, I've been with my husband for 20 years. We've had seven, eight, 10, 12 children. I'm a trad wife, I stay home. Basically, they don't understand that their husband has been raping them and beating them for 20 years. And that's not abuse. They don't even know it's not abuse.

[Kate]

Wow.

[Holly]

Because they'll tell me their stories of, well, I can't get on the pill and he just keeps having sex with me all the time, even when I don't want to. And, and I tell him no. And, and he holds me down and does it anyway. And I'm like, honey, that's rape. And they're like, how can it be raped when the body's Bible says that my body belongs to my husband?

[Kate]

And I'm like, okay, Bible was written by men.

[Holly]

It also says your body belongs to him too. So tonight I want you to go buy a big old strap on and I want you to peg the and tell him that you're. His body belongs to you.

[Kate]

Yes, absolutely.

[Holly]

And you know, and they're like, oh, no. You know, and they're, and they're telling me like, how he's grabbing their throats and shoving them against a wall and punching them in their sleep and beating them. And, and they think that this is okay because they said something that they shouldn't have said, and so they deserve it. And I'm like, no. So that is my goal. I am, yeah. An extreme feminist at this point. You know, intersectional feminist.

[Kate]

I mean, I, I, I, I, I really feel like at this point in time, if you're not, something's wrong with you. Like, if you're not a radical feminist in this time that we're at in society, then you're, you need help.

[Holly]

Because they've been so many women have been brainwashed. And when you're raised indoctrinated to believe that the highest role that you can have is to get married and have children and raise your children. And although it's a sacrifice, sweet lady, it's a sacrifice, your reward will be in heaven. You know that they make it sound so magical and virtuous and amazing only to live it. And you realize holy, when you give your life to this man, the man that feeds you can also starve you.

[Kate]

Yep.

[Holly]

You know, and, and so it was a shock for me coming 20 years later and coming out with, I mean, I had a degree in biblical studies.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

What am I going to do with that now that I don't have a belief in that anymore?

[Kate]

Yeah. But I actually think it's what, what a beautiful thing though, because what a beautiful tool. I mean, if, if you, I mean, like you said, most, I, I believe this. Most Christians have not read the Bible front to back and, and, and, and not only that, but learned the translations, where it came from, and all that kind of stuff. You have. So you have this amazing knowledgeable tool that you can actually use to hopefully stop women from having to Go through what you went through. And I think that's really empowering. I mean, honestly, you took what you went through, and even during the time you may have been oppressed and whatever, but now it's, it's, it's. We can use it now as a tool. And I think that's why I think people like you are so important on social media, especially as a woman who's not only went through this abuse, but then got out of it and then has the knowledge behind it to, to, to, you know, to help educate. We have to keep talking about this stuff even though it's uncomfortable. I mean, everyone's. We have to.

[Holly]

Yes. And so I have dug deep into my healing. I've learned about nervous system regulation, polyvagal theory, internal family systems therapy, like, how to heal your nervous system, how to heal your thoughts, and re. Rewire your brain with neuroplasticity. I have. Science is my God now.

[Kate]

You're right.

[Holly]

Like, Like. So I help women rewire their brain. Get. I host retreats at my house every month. Oh, in June, I host LGBTQ retreats. In November, I host trans retreats because it's Trans Awareness Month. But the rest of the year, I host women exclusively to come to my farm, stay in my house. They get spa treatments, they get Reiki. They get. They do breath work. We make friendship bracelets and just talk about healing and how to regulate their nervous system and, and to heal again and to deconstruct all of the beliefs that we have learned about what a woman should be.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

Which.

[Kate]

That's amazing.

[Holly]

I don't think that there is any one definition of what a woman should be. I think we should just be whatever the fuck we are.

[Kate]

Right, Right. Which, like you said, we are. I mean, like, I always talk about, you know, the bearers of life, the creators of life. And I get a lot of mad, angry, kind of defensive men that'll say. When I say, listen, contribution is not the same as creation.

[Holly]

Yeah.

[Kate]

And you have got to accept the fact that you contributed your DNA and had your little. Your little three second amazing thing, and then now. But you have not grown organs. You have not grown bones. You have not sacrificed your body in any way to create and bear life. And so they. And they look at when they hear this, I'm like, The response is always so, like, visceral. They're like, wait, wait a minute. It wouldn't happen without me. And I'm like, dude, just sit down. If me telling you that contribution is not the same as creation is offensive, to you, then you need to do a lot of work.

[Holly]

Yeah. I tell you in a way that they can understand that you're the spark plug to our engine.

[Kate]

Yeah. Right.

[Holly]

You. You had a spark. You had a five second contribution, you know.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

And that is it. And not to say that it's a man in your life still isn't valuable or your partner.

[Kate]

Right.

[Holly]

To protect you through the process and stuff.

[Kate]

Of course.

[Holly]

But that this is why the patriarchy was formed. Because I think that men just got really insecure about the ego.

[Kate]

Was like, just like, calm down, everybody.

[Holly]

And this is what I teach women. I say all the male spiritual leaders in our time don't read them because men's spiritual growth is killing their ego, but a woman's spiritual growth is growing an ego.

[Kate]

Yes.

[Holly]

This is what Elizabeth Gilbert teaches and I heard it a few years ago and I was like, that is so true. Because men are raised in the church and in patriarchy to believe, you know, lead, take charge, be a man. It looks like this. Get that ego up. And women are. Be small, be quiet, be agreeable. So I'm constantly. My platform goes back and forth between deconstructing, helping people deconstruct from religion, helping women recognize abusers, including our president, and helping women also heal their nervous system will be able to recognize abuse and grow in their own unique spiritual path, whatever that is.

[Kate]

Right.

[Holly]

Because I don't think. I think there's so many paths to the same destination.

[Kate]

Right.

[Holly]

And we all just take different paths. And that's because we're all different.

[Kate]

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. You know, that's why I think it's really important to keep. To keep talking about it because I, I noticed, even in my own comment section, you know, I made a post about, you know, Alex Preddy and Renee. Good. And just where I stand on things. And I. And the comments were very disappointing. I was like, wow. And I. And they were. I'm unfollowing you. And I'm just like, please leave. Like I was. So you don't have to announce your exit. Get out of here. I want to. You're doing me a service by getting out of my energy field. You need to get out of here, because I don't. You're not welcome here. And so. And, but that's why I thought it was so important to like, talk with people like you and Monty and just, just everyone who. Who's on the. Who's at the forefront really trying to make real impactful change. And obviously being a girl dad of all of all daughters. I'm like, I want to push this as far as it can go because they're gonna be raised in a world that's far different. And hopefully I wanted to make sure that's different in a good way and not a bad way. And I'm seeing a lot of like regression happening and I'm like, what's going on? The whole trad wife movement and romanticizing oppression, romanticizing submission. It's just what I'm like, what is. What is going on? And I just. Yeah, I think it's important to keep having these types of conversations and yeah, going to retreats like you have, I mean I would love. How do people. Where would they find a retreat like this? I mean, how can they go about.

[Holly]

Is my platform and I'm on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube and tick tock and they can go there and click on my link and sign up for. I only have. I only allow 10 women each time just because I like to keep. There's a lot of stuff that comes up for some women. So yeah, keep it small and, and safe. So in good conversations and, and in easy and especially for my, my introverted friends, like, yeah, I don't want them. I've never been an introvert in my life, but I, all my best friends have been introverts, so I understand their. So I try to keep it simple, small for. For them, but I also do zoom calls two times a month called the Sisterhood membership where women can come on. And I call it the year to self respect. So I teach them how to regulate their nervous system and then how to manage their thoughts and how to change their thoughts and have more self confidence and self respect for themselves so that they enforce their boundaries more and they don't settle for any type of toxicity, disrespect or abuse.

[Kate]

That's great. Yeah, good.

[Holly]

I am, you know, I just, I grew up with all sisters and with a mother that was abused so much and watching that growing up, I just don't want that for anybody else. And I know that I kind of followed in her footsteps a little bit, but I got out.

[Kate]

Oh, but you got out.

[Holly]

Yeah, I got out and so did my sisters. All of my sisters have now divorced men that are like this and oh, we are free and we, you know, make our own money and live our own lives and listen, I have 15 acres that I cut the grass myself. I have a 60 inches John Deere lawnmower that I changed all three blades with an impact drill myself. Like I watch YouTube videos, friend. I can figure that out, you know?

[Kate]

Yeah, right.

[Holly]

I don't wanna.

[Kate]

But yeah, but yeah, yeah. I mean, that's the day and age that we live in now is YouTube. Hey, listen, women can do anything, really, honestly.

[Holly]

And I got protection as well, and I'm a really good shot, and I am. I take care of myself and my. And my kids. And, you know, I. I do have a boyfriend. And I. He was not raised in the church, and he was not. He was raised by a strong mother. And so when I tell him these stories, he's always just like, what?

[Kate]

I know it's mind blowing to people who were not involved in fundamentalism or any of this, like, you know, patriarchal nationalism kind of thing. And that's why it's like. I mean, I was raised by a single mom and my sister, and so, you know, watching her do, you know, just go through the trials and tribulations of raising kids on our own, it always amazes me when I, you know, step back and go, wow, like, there's people out there who actually believe this stuff and really, like. And not only believe it, but they push it, they sell it, they make it sound so amazing. And now we have these. You know, it's almost funny how I feel like we're at a. At like a crossroads where there's creators like, you know, Wes Huff, and then there's creators like Dan McClellan, and they're totally polar opposite. And it's like, that's why I feel like it's getting. It's seeming so scary and crazy because we are getting to that breaking point, this. This final threshold where I hope we just. Let's get. Let. Get knowledgeable, get, you know, come on, let's break it. Let's break out of this thing.

[Holly]

It's. It's so. What it is. It's. It's an identity crisis when you are conditioned and brainwashed to believe that this is the truth. And it's really like deep into your identity, you believe it. Your whole community, your family, everybody believes it. And so when I walked away, there was so much grief.

[Kate]

Yeah, so much grief.

[Holly]

Not only because I was dealing with the death of my daughter, but I was dealing with the death of a dream of what my future would look like.

[Kate]

The death of who you thought you were.

[Holly]

I was a woman. The death of my God and my purpose. The death of my community. I mean, scary people were not happy with me.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

How could I be angry at God and walk away? And I really was alone. And this was before podcasts and social media. Existed. So I was just always in the library reading different books and trying to figure this out for myself. And it's a very lonely road. Not so much anymore, because. Just.

[Kate]

Right.

[Holly]

Talking about it and stuff online. But a lot of people don't have the emotional stability to walk away from their commute, from their beliefs and have this identity crisis, that crisis that just breaks you open and.

[Kate]

And the identity crisis is kind of inevitable. Like, you can't. You have to go through it, unfortunately, it's the unfortunate part of, you know, you have to go through it in order to get to the other side. But on the other side, it's. It's a beaut. It's freedom. It's liberation. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's true autonomy, which I think in, in reality, every human being, the planet should agree with that. They should. Everyone should want everyone else to have autonomy over everything. Spiritual, body, health, all that stuff. And to argue against it is to argue against humanity itself, which is weird to me. So I think it's really important people.

[Holly]

People to know, because first of all, it makes you feel superior to think that you know better than everybody else.

[Kate]

So you're right.

[Holly]

You have the answers. It makes you feel. You. You wouldn't. I would never have called it pride, but it was definitely pride. And, you know, I was just like, poor thing.

[Kate]

Yeah. Right. Right.

[Holly]

Now the truth, you know, Poor little thing, you know? And now to. People ask me all the time, well, what do you believe now? And it's so nice to be able to say, I don't know.

[Kate]

I'm just here for the ride and

[Holly]

I don't need to know. I feel like my purpose in life is just to experience life.

[Kate]

Right?

[Holly]

The good, the bad, the ugly, and to grow and to just taste all the beauty and. And. And the blood, you know, that happens and grow and just become more resilient. And I don't love that, you know?

[Kate]

Yeah, I'm. Well, I. I don't want to have

[Holly]

to be more resilient, but damn it, I am.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

And I think that, you know what? Life, when you look at the universe, it's so. There's so many incredible, beautiful, amazing things, and there's also so many horrific, terrible things. You know, we have rainbows and sunshine and magnificent views, and we have tornadoes and hurricanes and bugs that kill people, you know?

[Kate]

Right.

[Holly]

And bugs that heal people. Like, it's just.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

Life is.

[Kate]

It's funny because I always tell my. My daughter, I'm like, you know, it's interesting because the. The whole story of, like, creationism versus, you know, scientific evolution or whatever, it's like, the real scientific evolution is so much of a cooler story, in my opinion, than any. Like, how can you. But. And so my daughter. It's funny because we. She's into science, like, and so we'll go camping and stuff, and she'll literally meet a random kid, and she'll go, do you know that we're made from stardust? Like, isn't that so. And the kids, like, what? And then she gets to explain it. And just seeing, like, the. The. The amazement in her eyes when she's talking about it, it just, like, brings me so much joy because I'm like, all right, we're doing something right here. You know what I mean? Like.

[Holly]

Because it never sat well with me. That. What do you mean? That God sent his biggest enemy to live on earth with his children. That's like you sending your kids to grow up on Epstein Island.

[Kate]

Right.

[Holly]

You know, and walking away and then coming back at the end of their life and being like, don't you love me?

[Kate]

Yeah, Right?

[Holly]

And they're like, why would I love you? You put me here with all. With all this horrible. Horribleness. Yeah, well, then you're gonna burn forever in hell because you don't love me. Like.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

Why? That doesn't make any sense to me now.

[Kate]

It doesn't?

[Holly]

What? What? But, you know, my prefrontal cortex had to fully develop, and, of course.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

And. And, you know, I walked away. I think I was, like, 27, 28 years old when I. Oh, wow.

[Kate]

So. So you were. I mean. Yeah. So it wasn't like. I mean, you were in it for a while?

[Holly]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, all my kids. Babies got baptized in the church. Even though I was starting to deconstruct, I was still.

[Kate]

Of course. What's the process, I think people think that you deconstruct in one day. No, it's a long, you know, ongoing

[Holly]

process for a while, because I was like, in case I'm wrong.

[Kate]

Right, right.

[Holly]

Let's get everybody baptized, and let's, you know, search. But then we finally moved. We moved to Charlotte, North Carolina, because we had lived in Cleveland for 10 years. And when we moved to Charlotte, I went around, and this is something that you can do. You can call pastors of churches and you can interview them. You can go in for an interview. And I went around and I interviewed a bunch of pastors to see. I had my list of questions like, what do you believe about this, this, and this. And as a biblical scholar, like, I had a lot of questions.

[Kate]

Yeah, right, right.

[Holly]

Because there was no way I was going to sit in a service and hear somebody teach anything remotely close to hate.

[Kate]

Right, right.

[Holly]

You know, and so I had a lot of questions, and shockingly enough, none of them answered the questions the way I wanted to. So I never went back to church. But some of them told me, listen, I believe I agree with you on all of your things, because I had a lot of questions about the LGBTQ community, women, people of color. Like, if you're going to come for these people, I'm not to going. Not going to attend. And they would tell me, I agree with you, but I can't teach that from the pulpit.

[Kate]

Wow. Did they ever give a reason why?

[Holly]

Well, some of them were in, you know, like Methodists or Episcopalian or like a part of a association. And so they have to follow the guidelines of the association other than others were like. Like, my congregation would never accept it. You know, they just. They're too close minded to that. And I'm like, what a sad. What a sad ex. Yeah, that's crazy. Like, you know, yeah, it's money if I.

[Kate]

If I go.

[Holly]

When I was a pastor, one of the pastors came to me and said, holly, if you ever got your church one day, what would you teach? And I looked at him and I was still full fledged Christian nationalist. And I looked at him and I said, everything that you're too afraid to teach on.

[Kate]

Good.

[Holly]

I would be talking about abuse, marriages, parenting, you know, sex, all the things that you all won't talk about. Oh, well, we can't really talk about, like, you know, we have to walk a fine line because people won't tithe. And if they don't tithe, we won't have a building, we won't have church, we can't outreach. So it's always, oh, so you're saying

[Kate]

there's greed involved in the church system? No way. Yeah. Wow.

[Holly]

Right?

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

That was what? Jesus. Jesus. The two people that he really came against in the Bible were religious people and wealthy people. Yeah, those were the two. And then when you combine the both. Both of those together, you have the perfect storm of.

[Kate]

Yep.

[Holly]

People masquerading around as virtuous and morally superior when really, you know, they're at home wearing, like, Kristy gnomes. Husband. Prosthetic bras and being a bimbo.

[Kate]

Yeah. And that. Yeah. And that's kind of why, like, you know, I mean, even I share my personal Facebook Page all the time about, like, here's another one. I mean, like the number of children being abused by their youth pastors or their, their. Someone in their congregation. And it's like, listen, there is a pattern here. And if we're not willing to, like, sit with the uncomfortable feeling and recognize this pattern, then these children will continue to be abused and hurt. And so, like, what are we doing as a society by moving? Like, you know, I recently found out that a youth pastor was. Got in trouble for, you know, abusing a child and they just moved him to a different state, moved him to a different state, to a different church. And I'm like, what is. I said like, like it, it's mind blowing to me that the automatic reaction isn't to call the cops and, you know, get these criminals off the street. No, you're just moving them around because you're so afraid of, you know, shame coming to the church or the, or the, the congregation. It's like, if you're prioritizing the church over the safety of children, we have a huge problem.

[Holly]

And that's huge problem. They are prioritizing their bank account money. They don't want to lose the congregation and lose the money. And so, you know, recently, funny enough, I had a lady book a call with me a few weeks ago who was my former pastor's daughter.

[Kate]

Oh, wow.

[Holly]

After 20 years. I have not talked to her in 20 years. And she booked a call with me and I was like, this is gonna go one or two ways.

[Kate]

Yeah, right, right, right.

[Holly]

But okay, yeah. And she is full on lesbian now. Feminist. Walked away and her father does not speak to her and he is now in trouble in the news because they're prophets. Right. They were caught looking at people's Facebook pages during the sermon so that they could get information about their life.

[Kate]

Oh, wow.

[Holly]

So that they could speak into their life with all this knowledge from God that they got from Facebook.

[Kate]

Manipulating, manipulation. Exactly. Oh, wow.

[Holly]

Control, manipulation and neglect. You're neglecting the children. You're controlling everybody, what they wear, purity, culture, everything like that. And you're manipulating them with your stupid ass lies and just not being genuine. Because if it was God, you wouldn't need Facebook.

[Kate]

Yeah, exactly right.

[Holly]

You don't need to do any of that. But when I was trained as a prophet, I was trained as well, and I prophesied over me, people and it's.

[Kate]

And what, and what do you mean by tr. How do you get trained as a prophet? How? Either. You know what I mean? How does that even work? Because if you're a prophet, you're like, how do you get trained to do something like that?

[Holly]

Right. Yeah, we went through training and basically we were taught to observe.

[Kate]

Okay.

[Holly]

Pick up on cues to like, for example, a lady came in with a purse and she put it on the ground and it was full of makeup. So what? So, okay, this is, this is shameful. So my 21 year old dumb ass self was like, oh, the Lord is telling me, you know, that I can see that you love beauty and making women beautiful and you know, all this vomit.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

Spewing out of my mouth. And she's just like, oh, yes, thank you God. Look you right, see. And like I, I've. I wish I could go back and ask for forgiveness of every single person that I influenced their decisions in their life.

[Kate]

Right.

[Holly]

These people are making decisions like I did based on what these prophets said. And they're literally just making up.

[Kate]

Wow. I mean, literally manipulate. I mean that's the clap and that you. It's manipulation of people taking, taking advantage of their, of their. Wow. That is because I always thought that was interesting how they're like, oh, I went to this school, who taught me how to. And I'm like, how do you, how are you taught like how to do this?

[Holly]

And because if you actually insane, why isn't he telling? Why didn't he tell you about Epstein? Why didn't he tell you about the abusers in your church? Why didn't he tell you about all these abusers around the world and that you could go reveal this? No, instead you're just giving people false hope in order to get their attendance and their money.

[Kate]

And that's why I think it's important to talk about it. Like, I know obviously you're like, oh God, if I could go back and ask for forgiveness. And I feel ashamed. But it's, it's important to talk about because people really are relying on these prophets, these pastors, whatever that are. I mean, they're really making life altering decisions based off of this information.

[Holly]

Yes.

[Kate]

And so I think it's important to talk about the method that they use to deliver these prophets or whatever, you know, prophecies, messages, whatever you want to call it. And it's important to talk about and I'm happy that you're have enough courage and you know, your vulnerability with what you talk about on your page. You're not, you don't shy away from your past. You don't, you know, you don't try to hide you, you. In a way you embrace it and use it. And I think that's really important and admirable.

[Holly]

Nobody to hold me accountable for what I say. I don't have a man telling me what I can and cannot talk about. I don't have. Okay. My children do. My children are sometimes like, cut that shit out, Mom. If you. Yeah, your dildo again. Like, all my friends are watching, and they're like, you know, so I've had to, like, pull back a little bit in certain areas because I am such. Because I think that so much secrecy is held in the darkness, you know, And I don't have. I don't get embarrassed. I am what I am. I have been through hell in my life, and I have come out every time on the right side, you know, and so what is. What are you gonna do? What, are you gonna shame me?

[Kate]

Yeah, right, right.

[Holly]

You're gonna what? You know, Come on. Like, I don't give a. Yeah. You know, I live on 15 acres of land with me. My children are all gone in college and all over the place, but. But alone, basically. I have a woman that lives with me because I believe in women taking care of each other and helping each other out and stuff, but nobody's telling me what I can and cannot say.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

And I just sit by myself and just talk and it all just spills out, and then I have to edit afterwards. And there are something afterwards that I'm like, pull back on that, Holly girl.

[Kate]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Holly]

You'll need to be saying all that. You're going. Community guidelines.

[Kate]

Yeah, right, right. Yeah. But. But I think shame is. It's an interesting concept because, you know, it's such an external thing. Like, oh, I'm shame, shame, shame. But like, I'm the one who accepts it or not.

[Holly]

Yeah.

[Kate]

So you can. You can believe that. You can think that I should be shameful about something I did. But if I don't hold that shame, then there's no power in it. It's just your opinion that you believe that I should be shameful about something, but if I'm internally not shameful about it, then there. It's. There's no power there.

[Holly]

What are you going to say to God when you're standing before the pearly gates?

[Kate]

If I'm going to ask lots of questions, I'm going to be like, what the man? Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

[Holly]

Be like, I always tell people, like, I big fan of Jesus. I thought what Jesus did. And what he came to say was definitely radical for his time.

[Kate]

Radical woke guy.

[Holly]

Radical woke guy. That got him Killed, you know, as a result. Fan of Jesus, the Bible, who has a degree in it.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

Lots of problems with the Bible. And so the fact, you know, like, if I'm standing before God, I've got a million questions. Why did you allow this? This.

[Kate]

Right?

[Holly]

Like, no, this is not acceptable. I'm a better parent than you are.

[Kate]

Right? Right.

[Holly]

Isn't that crazy?

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

How is that possible that I am a better parent? I have more forgiveness. I don't require blood sacrifice to forgive my children. I would never condemn my children to hell for eternity. And I know that this is not true. So. So if you are real and you exist, why did you allow this to continue?

[Kate]

Right.

[Holly]

And allow. And that's why weaponize it.

[Kate]

That's what I think people don't understand too, is when they say, oh, this is what the Bible says. I'm like, yeah, but you're not, you're not doing the history on who wrote this Bible and how this Bible came to be. And in the history of all the different councils and Constantine, all the stuff that you really, in my opinion, like, I feel like if anyone is going to be, you know, religious preacher or pastor, I think it should, you need, it should be required that you do this history. Because I have a. I have a suspicion that if you really followed the history and did it all, you'd come out the end being like, maybe I, I don't know if I want to be a preacher anymore because this isn't like, you come to realizations that you can't really ignore. And that's why I think it's so interesting when people will, like, you know, if I post, like, I posted a video of me meditating with my incense and stuff, and people immediately was like, that's demonic. You're. You're setting your children up for. For to burn in hell. And I remember thinking in my head, like, wow, I had no idea that crystals and incense could be such a. Could really wild all you guys up. Like, I can't believe you're offended by incense and crystal. That's mind blowing.

[Holly]

That God made.

[Kate]

It's like, what is happening?

[Holly]

Like, God made a crystal. It's not bad. He also made weed. Wheat's not bad either.

[Kate]

Yeah. Like, yeah.

[Holly]

Which I love. You know, I'm very thankful. Goodness, you know.

[Kate]

Right.

[Holly]

For marijuana.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

But.

[Kate]

Oh, yeah, we can.

[Holly]

Okay, good. But, you know, I am. I feel so free and I love that I can share this with women now. I, I also think that church plays a, A beautiful role in people's lives.

[Kate]

I Was gonna ask you kind of like, what do you think religion hurt? How do you think religion hurts women? How do you think religion helps women?

[Holly]

I think it hurts women and men.

[Kate]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Holly]

You know, by telling them what their roles has to be like.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

You know, I know men that got married and they are terrible with money. They cannot lead worth. They. And they should not be the leaders in their marriages. And yet the wife is still. He's still demanding that he is the leader and he should not be the leader, like so.

[Kate]

Right.

[Holly]

And he walks around with shame every day too, that he's not doing good enough, you know. So I think it hurts men and women just by telling them what their roles have to be and that one is higher than the other. The get out of here, get out

[Kate]

of here, you know. Yeah.

[Holly]

But what church does and why people are drawn to it is, is it allows people to have community. And as humans, like our nervous system needs. We need a village. We need belonging. We need community. So that's why I started. I started a group in my city called Soul Sisters of Charlotte. And I've been helping women open these groups up all around the country, putting them in different cities all over the country so that women can still have community. Yeah, we need community. It helps us. We co regulate each other.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

Our nervous systems, you know, and we hear the stories and we're not so alone. You know, last weekend I hosted a lot of women at my home and we just sat around and sat for five hours talking and sharing stories and everyone feels seen, you know?

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

Like, oh my God, me too. How are you handling that? What are you doing? You know, and people get to open up and be. So the community is great. There are certain churches that I personally to this day still help because they really are about outreach to the community.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

They're really about food drives and clothing and toys for children. Now that I will stand behind. I will donate, I will help. That's good. So there's. We have taken what's beautiful and just turned it into something really ugly.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

But that's because people want to feel above somebody else.

[Kate]

Yeah. And it's interesting that you bring it up because really when it comes down to it, we're human beings. We're a species that is really reliant on tribes. And so, you know, being the feeling of the natural desire to be tribal with other people, human beings is primitive. It's in our. It's in our DNA. So I think that's where religion kind of fills that little. It kind of Fills that gap in there, like, oh, well, I can come to this one space. We can sing together, our hands go up. I mean, there's a science behind how they use worship music and how, you know, how they get people to, you know, quote unquote, feel the Holy Spirit. I mean, there's a science behind it. I don't think people are ready to really dive into that science, but it's out there.

[Holly]

Effervescence or something like that.

[Kate]

Yes.

[Holly]

Same thing happens at pep rallies and football games and concerts and stuff.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

And it is very, very accurate.

[Kate]

Yeah, it is.

[Holly]

And as a matter of fact, the first time I sat down with a woman who did like a Hindu mantra thing, I was so triggered because it sounded like speaking in tongues. And, and the church that I came out of. And so then of course I like deep dived into this is not just a Christian. Like, these are things that help us.

[Kate]

Like, Right.

[Holly]

Prayer or speaking posit like is the same as Reiki, you know.

[Kate]

Yeah, exactly.

[Holly]

Speaking positivity over somebody, you're touching somebody or not touching them. Laying on of hands for people. We're co regulating each other's nervous systems. Being in community is good, you know, helping one another. So there's all these benefits. They're just being used in a destructive way.

[Kate]

Right, right.

[Holly]

Because of pride, like people want to, but also, not everybody has the brain capacity to live with uncertainty.

[Kate]

Yeah. And that's kind of where I feel like we need to get to a place where it's okay to say I don't know. And I think that's where I. That's why I love science so much. Because science, science is not afraid to acknowledge its limitations. It's not afraid to say, I don't know, let's keep trying, let's keep figuring this out. It has no, you know, and I think there's a lot of. Actually, it's scary, but it's still freedom. Uncertainty is still this kind of. Oh, like, okay, well, I don't know. And just accept the fact that you don't know and it's okay. It's fine.

[Holly]

So hard for people. The thing that broke my brain open is I went to the library and they recommended. One of the librarians, recommended this book called the Denial of Death. And I read it. Oh my God. I have never heard or read anything like this before in my life. And ultimately what it said at the conclusion was, when animals in nature are faced with present danger, there's a lion standing in front of them, they experience fear. But once they're out of that fear. They don't experience fear on the daily, but humans, because we are conscious and aware, we know that death is inevitable and it's coming and we're conscious of that. That fear creates so much anxiety. So humans had to invent religion and afterlife, a God in order to subside that fear so that they would, could believe that they will live forever.

[Kate]

Right.

[Holly]

And have that certainty. But not everybody can. Has the nervous system or the critical thinking skills to be okay with not having certainty.

[Kate]

Yeah. And I, and I think it's interesting because I talk about that with my daughter when we were, when we were going through the whole list of all the different religions and she asked me, well, why, why did they do this? And I, and I said, my theory really is that human beings, this was to make sense of a world that they didn't know yet. And so why does a lightning strike the tree? They're gonna. Zeus and they're gonna cut these, these, you know, myth, myth, mythological reasonings because they didn't know yet. And I explained to her, but that is why I believe science is so important, because science has, we have, we have answers to these things now. And that's why it's so important that we don't, you know, try to limit it and try to minimize sign. I mean, we need to embrace it and accept it. And so I think it's interesting how like, you know, as, as human beings, you know, there was, there was a, there was a real big use for it back then. But we're, you know, it's 20, 26. We're evolved, we're smarter. We realize that we're animals. And she thinks that's so cool, by the way. She's like, we're animals. I'm like, yeah, we just happen to be the smartest animals on the planet. Some would say, would argue against that, but, you know. Yeah, right. Yeah. And so I think it's so interesting how when you and I see, I, I, you can see it in children like my, like my daughter versus, you know, someone else who's obviously being raised with different beliefs. And you can almost see the, like, you know, my daughter has a, has a fluid thing to her and kind of a. She's not as afraid and she's not as, you know, withdrawn and there's a difference there. And so I hope, you know, as we keep talking about stuff like this, we realize that at least let the children have spiritual autonomy at least. Right.

[Holly]

I mean, they're not going to do that because they're trying because What I was taught was we have to create an army for God.

[Kate]

I know. That's what I think. People not understanding is that, you know, they think it's some kind of, like, conspiracy theory, but it's not. They're. They're sending these children to these colleges with the goal of being lawmakers and policy change makers. And that's, to me, is what's really scary. And that's why I think Christian nationalism is one of the biggest threats to democracy in this time period that we're in, unfortunately.

[Holly]

And brainwashing the women so that we will brainwash our children, you know. Yeah, but. But the crazy thing is, even with all the science, we still have so many people that are flat. Earthers never went to the moon, like, don't believe, you know, in true science. So even with the truth, people want to deny it. And because they, you know, it makes them feel superior, like they know something that we don't, which is so weird.

[Kate]

So it's. I mean, when you really break it all down, it's. It's a system based off fear and shame and wanting to be superior, which are so such negative things when you break it. Like, who wants. Why do you want to be in this kind of system? It doesn't reward anybody. It's. It's horrible.

[Holly]

Right, I agree. And why do we need blood for forgiveness? Why does there need to be a sacrifice made by animals or Jesus or anybody for forgiveness? Because humans can forgive without blood sacrifices. Why can't God?

[Kate]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I agree.

[Holly]

Why are we being told from a young age that we are sinful, broken, horrible?

[Kate]

That's. That's my biggest problem is that, I mean, my mother got saved when I was about 14, so. And then obviously aren't, you know, they. When people first get saved, they're very loud and very into it, and it's great, whatever. And so when she got saved when I was about 14, and, you know, it's. It's one of those things when you're raised a certain way. I mean, she was a bartender on the weekends. She was, you know, she was a single mom, so she was. She was rough. She, you know, we got backhand in the mouth, we talk back and all that kind of stuff. But, you know, she got saved and all this new stuff started happening. I remember thinking, like, telling her, like, you know, you know, oh, it's all thanks to God. I remember being a young kid and be like, well, mom, no, that was you. Yeah, like, that was you. Like, you did that. Like. So I think it's just one of those things where we, we still have a lot of work to do because, like, even, like you said, even with all the science, we're still clinging on to this, this thing. And it's like, what is going. We have such a thing fear of abandoning this system. And it's, it's, it's, it's, it's. We. It's weird. It doesn't. I don't make sense to me.

[Holly]

Which is why we have, you know, every few months, oh, my God, Jesus is coming back, you know, so get your life together, friend. Yeah, they've been saying that for 2,000 years. Paul said it would happen in his lifetime and it's not, you know, so.

[Kate]

Oh, Paul. Oh, God. Oh, Paul.

[Holly]

Paul and I have as well.

[Kate]

Yeah, that's a whole other podcast.

[Holly]

The point is it is fear. It's a fear based system. And fear is motivating for people.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

Fear makes people want to have certainty. And, you know, a lot of people say, well, but Holly, what if you're wrong? I'd rather believe this and live this. And if I'm wrong, whatever, nothing happens. But if you're wrong, you go to hell. And I say to them, gladly, I

[Kate]

know I'm, I feel the same way. I'm like, listen, I don't want to be up there with these people. I really don't. I really don't. Because, yeah, I just, I don't. I have no desire to be up there with any of the people that I have witnessed and seen. Yeah, I would be going to God

[Holly]

and be like, I'm the new head of hr. I change everything now. This is crazy. You did not communicate well at all. What happened to your communication skills? God, like, yeah, what happened is not written in this sky for every. Why was it not? You know, in Rome, in the book of Romans, it says that God has written his word on our heart. And I'm like, well, then why is everybody interpreting it differently? And the Bible says that God is not the God of confusion in Corinthians. So why are we all confused? Yeah, make it make sense.

[Kate]

Make it make sense.

[Holly]

So listen, I am fine if people want to believe in God, if they want to believe in horoscopes, if they want to believe in crystals, if they want to believe in whatever spaghetti God that they want to believe. As long as you don't weaponize it and use it to harm others or restrict other people.

[Kate]

Right, exactly.

[Holly]

And that is why people are like, why do you always talk about this and come against Christianity? Why don't you go, why weren't you talking against Muslims or Jewish or whatever? I'm like, well, first of all, that was not my circus, not my road. You know, like, Right. I'm going to talk about what I know. But second of all, it harms so many people.

[Kate]

Yep.

[Holly]

Now, at the same time, they will come back and say, and it also helps so many people. Sure, sure. Community will help people. You know, being a part of something will help people. Having hope will help people. Which is why I call my platform Hope with Holly. Even though I don't believe in this, I still live a hopeful life. Of course I believe in life mastery, that you can be in charge of your. Well, to a certain degree. Listen, we could get a huge philosophical conversation about whether we have free will or not.

[Kate]

Right, right. Yes.

[Holly]

But, you know, like, I believe that I can take charge of my life and make it what I want to make it. And. And I have been doing that. And not an easy journey, but a free journey.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

A journey where all are welcome. A journey that. Where safe and healing takes place. Like true healing in our body.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

With our nervous system and with neuroplasticity in our brain. Like I. That I want to offer people a different alternative to church.

[Kate]

Yeah. Right.

[Holly]

So technically, I. I am a pastor now, just on social media. Yeah.

[Kate]

You're doing great. I think it's amazing. I love it. I love it.

[Holly]

But I talk a lot about like. Like relationships and making relationships safe because there's a. Here's the thing. I don't always get women to change their minds and open their minds when I talk about the God stuff, but I do get them if I can talk about relationship stuff and how your partner should treat you and what's respect and what's kindness and emotional safety. And once I can get them talking about that, then you can recognize abuse better.

[Kate]

Right. Then you'll see it, probably recognize oppression better. And then you start kind of opening your eyes over here and oh, whoa. Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah.

[Holly]

I just need to. I help women recognize abuse and what healthy relationships should look like so they can see, oh, my pastor is abusive.

[Kate]

Oh, right.

[Holly]

My husband's abusive. Oh, is God abusive?

[Kate]

Right, right. You're like, according to the Bible. According to the Bible.

[Holly]

Yeah, the Bible. Satan killed seven people, Job's family, and he had permission to do that. God, kid killed millions. God was the first sex trafficker.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

With the Midianites. And he told them, kill everybody except for the 32, 000 virgin girls and take them for yourself. That is sex trafficking.

[Kate]

It is.

[Holly]

God was the first Epstein.

[Kate]

I think a lot of people don't. Are not ready to have that conversation, unfortunately. But I think platforms like this, opportunities like social media gives. We're getting there. Like, we're. We're slowly getting there. And that's why I wanted you to come on here. I was so interested to have a conversation with you and I. Hopefully we can, you know, do this again about.

[Holly]

Yes.

[Kate]

Any other topic. And what was. I want to. Before I forget, what was the book that you said? Denial of Death or something? I want to. I'm writing. Yeah, I'm writing that down because I

[Holly]

want people to remember.

[Kate]

That sounds interesting.

[Holly]

I think the Bible gives God a bad reputation. And yes, I agree, if God is real and exists, it's not how we see in the Bible. But what I think the Bible is useful for is it's a mirror to our souls.

[Kate]

Right.

[Holly]

If you read the Bible and you have hate in your heart, you're going to read all the hate stuff and go for it. If you read the Bible and you have love in your heart, you're going to follow Jesus, you're going to be a Jesus follower. If you have hate, you're going to be an Old Testament follower.

[Kate]

You know, and that's kind of where I kind of break it apart, where I'm like, you know, there, to me, there are, you know, followers of Jesus Christ and then there are Christians. In my opinion, that's kind of how I categorize them. And I think the true people that are following Jesus are beautiful people, beautiful human beings. Beautiful. You know, I think getting the right message for. From that book and then relaying it out to the world in a beautiful way. And. And those are the people that I want to elevate as much as possible because, like, I think people get confused, like, well, why are you bashing Christianity? And it's one of those things where it's like, I'm not trying to bash Christianity at all. I'm trying to expose the system that Christianity uses to oppress and hurt people. And that's not okay. And so that's my only goal here. It's not to, you know. Yeah, yeah.

[Holly]

I mean, I think you have like over 3 million followers on Instagram. Like, that is such an amazing platform. And thank you for letting me, you know, come on and be a part of that because.

[Kate]

Oh, yeah, you know.

[Holly]

Yes. We just have to keep spreading the message. I mean, it's what Jesus told us to do.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

It's just for the Good news. And the good news. The good news is that you're good, friend.

[Kate]

You're good. You're good.

[Holly]

You don't need saving. You weren't broken to begin with.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

Jesus thinks you're cool. You're cool like him. You're woke, you know, and like.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

Being that loving force in the world, you know?

[Kate]

Yeah. Yeah. Simple it is. And I think that brings me back to my point about when my mama got saved and, you know, and I, we, you know, I had my own children. And I was like, you know, I will say you, you can take her to church, you can. Whatever you want to do. You're the grandma, that's fine. I said, but I will draw a boundary. You telling her that she's in need of salvation and that she is born a sinner. And I. And I was very clear on it and she respected it. And I said, I'm just letting you know, because that's not. I will not. That's not going to be taught in my house. To where innocent children are thought to be born a sinner and in need of salvation. Like, it's not happening. Yeah. And that's what that. So, yeah, I. We still have a lot of work to do, obviously, I feel like in this realm, but we're starting and I just want to say how much I appreciate your planning platform. I appreciate the message that you're spreading. I would love to, you know, maybe if there. There's a way that I can get a link to the. Any of your retreats. I think there's so many women that actually DM me all the time that are in situations where I think a retreat like yours would really help them. And anyone listening. Hope with Holly. Where can they find you? Instagram, Facebook, where can they.

[Holly]

Yeah, where can they find you On TikTok, Instagram, Facebook and YouTube. And they can just Google Hope with Holly and.

[Kate]

Okay.

[Holly]

I come up right away. I also, I work with this other lady that it does somatic breath work, Reiki, lots. Because I'm. I talk. I do more the teaching of.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Holly]

Nervous system healing and regulations and stuff. And she does. So I'm more the brain and she's more the body. So we work together and we created a company called called Trauma Queen.

[Kate]

Okay. Love it.

[Holly]

Okay. We became the queen of our trauma and. And so we work together. So I teach women how to change their views on things and then she helps integrate it into their body and nervous system. Feel safe in their body again, especially.

[Kate]

I tell you what breath work is. I went to A retreat in Arizona. And I was like, this is a superpower medicine. Why is not anybody not. Why is not everybody doing this? Like, it's amazing. Like, mind blowing, actually.

[Holly]

Truly. Absolutely. And I do that all throughout the day when I, you know, can't smoke. So it helps me so much. Just. I can feel my nervous system vibrating inside of me and. And just getting air and breath to it and putting focus on it.

[Kate]

It's our superpower, really. I believe. Yeah.

[Holly]

Yeah. Thank you so much.

[Kate]

Listen, I. I could talk to you for hours, right? I know. I got. I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm gonna shut it down. But listen, I would love to do a part two. I would love to have you on again with my wife when she's available. I think that'd be really great to kind of have that conversation, too. So I just. Thank you so much for. For taking the time to do this.

[Holly]

Thank you. I appreciate it so much with people younger than me being so far ahead of me, you know, and, like, I'm just so happy that religion is dying.

[Kate]

Yeah. You know, spirituality is rising and religion is dying, and that's really where that. That's the. Let's just. I just want to. I want the breaking point to happen sooner than rather than later.

[Holly]

But it's getting there.

[Kate]

We're working on it. Yeah.

[Holly]

But thank you as well. I really appreciate.

[Kate]

Thank you so much. Everyone listening. Thank you so much for. For joining me on another podcast of Kate and Tyler. Break it down Hope with Holly. Go follow her, and we will talk to you guys next week. Thank you so much.

[Holly]

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[Kate]

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[Holly]

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[Kate]

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[Holly]

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[Kate]

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[Holly]

It's Kayl Lowry. Join me for Barely Famous. You might think you know me, but trust me, you don't know this version of me. This is where I say what everyone is too scared to ask and ask the questions that nobody wants to answer. I'm talking exes, unexpected guests, viral chaos, messy relationships. Really, just all of it. Nothing is off limits. Nothing is off the record. And, yeah, things can get a little unhinged. It's real, it's raw, and it's probably going to make you gasp at least once. So follow rate and review barely famous wherever you get your podcasts.