Kate (2:48)

And.

Connor Howe (2:49)

And I was like, I gotta probably say something because, like, people don't realize that open adoption isn't the solution that it's been presented as. Basically.

Ty (2:55)

Do you feel like you're kind of like, almost like under. Like you're not really represented how you. Because people are saying all these things and you're like, oh, but open it up. And you're like, well, I. I'm. I'm in an open adoption. I still feel all these other shitty feelings. So it's like. It's almost like. It's almost like underrepresented that open adoption cannot. It's not always the solution.

Kate (3:15)

And I feel like that's how. And that's how like, they try to play it right. Like, even for birth parents. When we went into, you know, looking to place for adoption, it was very much like, open adoption is beautiful and rainbows, and you're gonna have all these things and your child's gonna know you and not have any questions. And it's like, well, really? That's not 100 accurate.

Connor Howe (3:33)

Yeah, I mean, I. I make a lot of videos talking about the history of adoption and even open adoption. I don't need to get into the whole history of it here, but like, it was. It's really a value proposition. You have a lot of people that are thinking about parenting their children and adoption is kind of the alternative. And when the number of people interested in adoption was shrinking and shrinking and shrinking and shrinking. After Roe v. Wade, the adoption industry was like, well, we're losing money. We're not in business anymore. A lot of these industries or agencies are going out of business. They're trying to Figure out how do we continue to facilitate options because we don't want to go out of business and lose our jobs or whatever. And so kind of the. The next move was open adoption. It wasn't really this idea of we're going to make adopt people's lives better or the natural parents lives better, or the adopters. It wasn't about anyone. It was just, it's a business. Businesses do what they need to do to survive. Right. And so, like, that was kind of the way it was presented. But yeah, to your point, the way that it's presented today in the industry of adoption, in the world of adoption is really like a open adoption is the cure to all these problems. Like, when I was growing up, it was like, you know, you could have been in a close adoption and you in an open adoption, though. And it's like I kind of have both because I'm also. I have a dad in Ireland who I've never met and has kept me a secret from his family for my entire life. But it's. Yeah, it's even in an open adoption with my mom, it's not like everything is perfect. Not to say that I'm not happy to have her and those types of things, but it's definitely not. I said this in other podcasts. I feel like the experience of being a person in an open adoption is very politicized. They kind of hold you up as this poster child of, like, look, he's happy. And without actually ever asking if you're.

Ty (5:05)

Happy, you know, did you feel the pressure from, like, people like, oh, I should be happy, like, everyone's.

Kate (5:09)

Because I have an open adoption or because I know.

Connor Howe (5:11)

Yeah, of course. I mean, I don't really think anyone in my life was like, hey, you have to feel this specific emotion, you know, but it definitely is one of those things where I grew up and I was the only person I knew in an open adoption. I mean, even today, you know, I've, like, you said I've been around this world for like a year publicly, and I have, you know, few thousand followers. I've only met, like, I think one person who's in an open adoption, Christina, who you guys want to talk to soon. But. But yeah, like, it's. There's not a lot of people and open adoptions around since the 70s, been around for 50 years. Like, it's not really as common as it's presented because the industry uses the term so broadly.

Kate (5:47)

It's very.

Connor Howe (5:48)

It means a different thing in a different stage of life. If you're thinking about relinquishing your child for adoption. Open adoption means the world. It means whatever you want it to mean. They literally, I think when you guys were. I saw clips from the show where it's like you are in the driver's seat. I think that's like the exact words were.

Kate (6:03)

Yep.

Connor Howe (6:04)

But obviously that's not really enforceable in any way, like, legally speaking.

Kate (6:07)

And even told that.

Connor Howe (6:09)

Yeah. And even in those legal agreements, they're not like a lot of them. If you have a legal agreement, it's not like it's always enforceable because you're generally the party with fewer or fewer, like, less money, less, you know, power, legally speaking. And so if the other party has more money or a lawyer on their side that can get the job done, or there's a judge who's like, well, the kid's better off with this new family, you're not really going to have any. You're not in a position of any level of power. I mean, not to say that you need power, power, but like, you have no agency at all. But again, it's like, it's all this. It's a huge promise. And then once the adoption is an open adoption, quote, unquote, it becomes this thing of like, you hear all the time, even with you guys. Right. Like your adoption closed.

Kate (6:51)

Yeah.

Connor Howe (6:52)

The vers the difference between closed and adoption. Open adoption was never about contact really. It was about close adoption meant that the records are sealed. The adopted person, the natural parents, the adopters, no one has access to the records. The whole point was to make them complete legal strangers from each other and make it impossible for the parents and the children to reunite. That was essentially really the purpose of closed adoption. So when they, like, opened it, they didn't really open the records. There's still most US States, if you're an adopted person, you can't actually access your own legal, you know, vital records. Your original version, even if it's considered.

Kate (7:27)

Open adoption, it's still sealed.

Connor Howe (7:29)

Yeah. I mean, I don't know exactly how it works. In every single state, everything's different. And there are like, you can have adoptive parents who are like, well, we want the birth certificate. So you can like, I had a copy of mine, but it wasn't a legal copy. And I had to still go to the court and petition a judge, even though I had the document in my house to get a certified copy of my original birth certificate to get my citizenship in Ireland. When I was doing that. Wow. Oh, weird.

Ty (7:53)

So, yeah, they didn't like, trust Your, that's confusing.

Connor Howe (7:55)

You still have to get a judge to sign off on it in California because it's not an open record state. There's only I think 15. It's somewhere between 15 and 20 states where adopted people have access to their birth certificates. And it's not like a politically partisan thing. Like I think like New York you're able to get it, Alabama you're able to get it. But then California you can't get it. And like a bunch of conservative states you can't. It's not really. Adoption is such a politically like bipartisan issue really where everyone in politics is like, adoption is great, we just should keep the status quo, basically. So adoptive people have been advocating for their records to be unsealed for like at least 50 years and it's still kind of one of those things that they're really struggling to, to get people on their side with. I mean it's a huge deal. But yeah, going back to the open versus close adoption thing, that's my kind of. My point is that that's the issue, right. It's the, the records being sealed. So not this openness agreement and the openness agreement again, it's, it's that the whole. That's all, it's all just the, it serves, it's self serving. It's open when we want it to be open. But then when we say the adoption closes, it's really a way of the agency saying that that's not like that. It's a failure of the adoption rather than a built in feature of the system. Because ultimately open adoption just means you have access to the piece of paper and they want it to say it's closed because then it's a promise like being broken really. But it's like. It's hard to explain what I'm trying to say.

Kate (9:15)

No, I get what you're saying.

Ty (9:16)

Adoption though, it's so. I almost feel like it's subjective to whoever agency you're using, whatever. It's so nuanced and so brawl. Like you said that. Like I remember when we talked to our adoption counselor and she mentioned that the only difference between open and closed is face to face contact.

Connor Howe (9:32)

Yeah. And then that's not even true. No, it has nothing to do with that. No. And that you can have a closed option and know your parents.

Ty (9:38)

Yeah.

Kate (9:38)

And so I think, see that's interesting. But we're not told that when we're.

Connor Howe (9:41)

Most people don't even. Most adopted people I don't think understand that that really the open versus Closed is a legal thing. I mean, that's like, the reason that open adoption became a thing was because of the sealed records issue. There was a bunch of adopted people in the 1970s that were advocating extremely hard, especially in the state of New York, to open records. They founded groups like Bastard Nation and a bunch of other legal advocacy groups to try to unseal their records. And there are a bunch of adoption social workers that were like, yeah, this is kind of dumb. In fact, like, I think when they actually proposed the concept of open adoption in the 1970s, they wrote something along the lines of like, why do we have to. Why does, like, I'm paraphrasing here, but they're like, why does. Why is this idea of this family building that we're creating built on this foundational idea that these, like, these children are losing their birthrights? That the birthright was like, what. The word they use that I remember very distinctly. And they said, like, you know, they even brought up, like, ohana means family, like in Hawaii kind of thing. Like, I mean, not like in the lilo and stitch sense, but they talked about that there are all kinds of ways to, like, create families or build families or whatever where you don't have to legally sever the child's connection to the child's family.

Kate (10:45)

Right.

Connor Howe (10:46)

And that was a huge part of why they were trying to create this open adoption. Again, that had nothing to do with visit. I mean, I'm sure they would have liked for the child to visit their families if that's something the child wanted to do. But ultimately it really had to do with. With the records being sealed versus opened. And again, yeah, I mean, theoretically speaking, you can have a relationship with your. With whoever you want to have in a closed option. If you find each other, you know, it's still closed option. You still don't have your records. Right. It's all about the records. But the openness agreements and like, that whole side is a very kind of like, they want to play it both ways, where it's open when it's convenient for us, but then it's not open versus closed when it's not convenient for us, basically.

Kate (11:24)

Right, right.

Ty (11:26)

Like I always say, we talk about the time, but, you know, getting older, I'm like, if the open adoption. Open adoption has this agreement, and I think it looks different for all agencies that do it. So this agreement, though, is not legally enforceable. So in my.

Connor Howe (11:39)

It's just a piece of paper in the middle of a bunch of legal documents.

Ty (11:41)

In my opinion, it's like, so there's no other way to classify that agreement as coercion. It's literally a way of just saying, this is going to look way better than, you know, it's okay. It's going to look like this. But it's not. It's not. So if it's not legally enforceable, then what else is? This piece of paper I can go on Microsoft Word right now and type about. You know what I mean? Me and you can make an equation.

Connor Howe (11:59)

And why put it, why put it in the middle of a bunch of legally binding paperwork too? You know, it's very, it's very deliberate.

Kate (12:05)

Oh, it is deliberate.

Ty (12:05)

It is deliberate. And my thing is, is that, like, if people don't understand that adoption is just a legal. It's a legal thing. You don't. You can do so many things and without having to legally adopt. So I think, oh, adoption's this adoption that's like, no, adoption's a court proceeding. It's illegal. You're transferring rights. You know, that's literally all it is. It doesn't mean anything other than that. I think we built it to be this weird, like, industry thing in this.

Connor Howe (12:29)

Country, but it's supply and demand.

Ty (12:31)

And I think it goes back to, like, if people would just look at other developed countries and look, I encourage.

Connor Howe (12:37)

Everyone to do it, like, because I think Australia, adoption.

Kate (12:40)

Yeah, right.

Ty (12:41)

I think Americans were so in our own little box, our own little, like, reality that we don't, we can't even imagine what it's like in other places. And it's like, well, they don't have adoptions because their social economic systems are different there. You know, I mean, they take social.

Connor Howe (12:54)

Safety nets, basically eradicate the need for adoption. And even people don't realize that American, like adoption people believe that adoption dates back to biblical times because of the way that, you know, oh, Jesus was adopted, Moses was adopted, all this stuff. But if you actually look at the legal process of adoption, like, America was one of the first countries to ever actually put adoption in its laws. The first adoption law was passed in this country 80 years after this country was founded, more or less. And yeah, adoption in itself, like, the way that we look at adoption didn't really exist until the 1920s, like, in terms of like taking a child and putting that child with like, complete strangers and create change. I look at the active adoption as the actual, like erasure of the original birth certificate, putting it behind seal and then giving them a new birth certificate that says you're born to these people that didn't give birth. You, that's like the, that's the act. Right. Everything else is, is external care. It's a very broad like umbrella definition. You can have guardianship, you can do foster care. You can. Grandparents can raise their grandkids or step parents can raise their step kids and they can call themselves mom and dad, whatever it is. That's, that's no different than adoption except for a piece of paper. Right? So it's, yeah, it's a very weird kind of like history. And you can say all this stuff, by the way, the people listening. You can say all this stuff and have perfectly normal relationships with the people in your life. Have a perfectly normal life. I like to look at adoption really just as a, as a system because that's what it is. It's a, it's like I'm a marketer. I look at it from like a marketing perspective of what are the promises being made.

Kate (14:27)

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Connor Howe (16:27)

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Connor Howe (16:53)

If the promises are being made and not enforced or kept, like, that's something that should change. Like, why should we not enforce the own standards that we're kind of promising to people? And again, I say all that. You know, I had like a pretty normal open adoption, quote unquote, for based on the very few experiences I've heard. But, yeah, it's like, it's. It's just a very complicated thing. And I feel like people really don't understand that. It is much more of a way of trying to convince people that adoption is not as terrifying as you think it is. Giving your kid to a complete stranger isn't nearly as terrifying as you think it is.

Kate (17:31)

Right.

Connor Howe (17:31)

It's a way of really kind of trying to mitigate those fears. But again, you really have no idea what's gonna happen.

Kate (17:37)

No, you don't.

Connor Howe (17:38)

I was fortunate enough to have relationship with my mom for my whole life. Like, my mom could have easily not been in my life. Just like you guys haven't been in your daughter's life for whatever circumstances. Right. I think people find it so easy to blame individual people in the way that things get mixed up like that. And obviously, I have my feelings. I'm sure you have your feelings. Everyone has their feelings about the way things look in open adoptions, whether they like, quote, unquote, work out or don't work out. But ultimately, I feel like if a system is like claiming to be a system of child welfare and it's making promises to the children, to the natural families, to the adoptive families, why don't we. Why do we have a System with such a high failure rate where there are so many people, whether it's the people like me, the people like you guys, people like the adopters that are unhappy, that are. Like, this was promised to me, and it wasn't what I thought it would be. You know, even my adoptive parents, like, I have a good relationship with them, but I've asked them, like, if you knew what things are the way they are now, like, if you could. If you had, like, a portal into the future and you could see the way things are, like, would you want everything to be exactly the same? And my mom's like, no, like, I wish you didn't have to be adopted. You know, and it's like, even. And to me, that, like, it. It. That sounds like something to someone who probably isn't adopted that would just feel like it cuts deep, right? Like, wow, you didn't want to. Like, you don't want to. But to me, that was so, like, refreshing to hear. Like, oh, my gosh, you understand. Because, like, when I was four years old, I. I remember my mom tells me, like, that I came up to her and I was like, I wish I came out of your tummy. Cause I wish I wasn't adopted. You know, Like. But a lot of people. I've heard a lot of adoptive people say things like that. It's. It's a.

Ty (19:12)

At as young as four. That means some kind of.

Connor Howe (19:16)

I've known my whole life that there was something. Everyone in my life. Well, my. In my adoptive family, everyone, we've all known there was something that, like, just didn't click. Like. And it's not an insult to them. It's not an insult to my mom, like, to my. My natural mom, to anyone. It just. People present adoption as this solution, and it just makes you, quote, unquote, normal family. And maybe for some people, it does. Like, I'm not here to say that the, quote, unquote, happy adopted people who want to shut me up and say, well, you're just one person. Look, if. If I'm not here to say that 100% of experiences are negative, but if there is a high rate of failure in anything, the goal should be to make that the failure rate lower by whatever, you know, whatever means we have to make the failure. Failure rate lower.

Kate (20:00)

Well, it shows that there needs. There needs to be change. Because, you know, until. Like me and Ty have said, until every adoptive person or adoptee says, like, it was great. I didn't struggle with anything. I was.

Ty (20:11)

You know, then we still have work to Do.

Kate (20:13)

Yeah.

Connor Howe (20:14)

And really, everyone should be happy. I mean, adopt people might not like to hear me say that, but it's like, I. I mean, I really believe, like, the system is making promises to three groups of people. Right. And so, like, why should not all three groups of people be as happy as they can be? Um. And, yeah, I just feel like it's one of those things, like, yeah, I. I'm. I don't just harp on that, but, yeah, it's very. Like, I. I wish the system could change, like, to serve adopted people. And really, I think one thing that's super telling is, like, you guys speak out. I speak out. A lot of people speak out about adoption in whatever ways they do. Right. And I feel like it says a lot that I've gotten so many responses from people, positive, negative, probably 90% positive when I say I have a lot of negative things to say about adoption. I have people who adopt, who have adopted kids that are like, I'm really glad you're saying what you're saying. Like, it says a lot that we are so public about our experience. Your experience is so public of, like, the agreements being broken. Point the finger at whoever. I don't care. It doesn't matter.

Kate (21:12)

Right.

Connor Howe (21:13)

The point is that I say what I say, you say what you say. And where are the adoption agencies coming up to us and being like, what do we need to do to be better? No one. No one holds themselves accountable in this. In this business. And that's really why I do. What I do is because I feel like, you know, in the same way that if someone makes a documentary about, you know, some business that's doing terrible things to. That harm the environment or harm people. Like, my goal is to change the industry to serve people, or to take that industry down if it doesn't serve people. But ultimately, like, my goal is for people like me to grow up, like, with the best possible circumstances. And I want everyone to be happy. Right. I want the people like you to be happy. I want the people like, I want everyone to be happy. I think there's so many people that it gets lost on. He might just. He's just one guy, and he has a negative experience and he's, you know, like, hates his life. Like, I. I mean, I definitely have issues, like, mentally, but it doesn't mean that I'm not also just like, a normal person trying to make the world a better place in the way that I'm trying to do it.

Ty (22:08)

Well, I think people. People all the time say that, though. Oh, well, you're just. Your one negative experience doesn't define everything. And it's like, well, neither is your one positive experience either.

Connor Howe (22:16)

Yeah.

Ty (22:16)

So it's like that, that, that constant, like, almost comparison is just. It's irrelevant. I think it, I think it takes away from the real purpose of what people are trying to do. So it's like, stop comparing. And I see this a lot between I, I guess the most discourse I was not expecting was actually adoptees against another adoptees and how their experience, you know, trumps there. Yeah. Or this one. And I'm like, wow, how is it.

Connor Howe (22:37)

We really like to eat our own?

Ty (22:38)

Like, how.

Kate (22:39)

Right. What is up with that?

Ty (22:40)

When. When I feel like everyone should have the same goal, which is what you said, is everyone should get what they want out of this system that they enter into. Whatever. Like. And I think that goes down to, like, I mean, it, It's. It's a promise that can't be kept in a lot of situations.

Connor Howe (22:56)

Yeah.

Ty (22:56)

If people are not willing to do what they need to do. And I also feel like I tell her all the time, I said, I, I feel bad for my daughter's parents. They. They went into adoption too.

Connor Howe (23:04)

Yeah.

Ty (23:04)

Having certain expectations with.

Kate (23:06)

With whatever promises made.

Ty (23:08)

And promises made, they didn't get the experience they wanted. And that's not fair either. So it's like, I'm not saying like.

Connor Howe (23:14)

Oh, gosh, someone's going to clip that. You're not saying that they're unhappy with. It's just that it's. Yeah, everyone is. People make very tangible promises about what your life is going to look like. And that basically having an adopted kid is the exact same thing as having a biological kid. And maybe some people in the world can close their eyes and convince themselves that I'm no different or my child is no different. And to those people, good for them. You know, if really, if people grow up and they live their lives and they have. They're just like a normal person. They were never adopted. Great. You know, I never felt that. And I don't feel like a lot. I think there's a lot of people, at least people that I've talked to that don't feel like that. And I feel like the question is if, if there's enough people that don't feel like that and we've. The industry has changed enough to the point where we're acknowledging that they're not exactly the same and that's okay. Okay. Well, what else can we do? Because there are a lot of people now that when they Realize that we're not the exact same. That that creates a lot of just. Your life is different. Right. Like, complexities and. Yeah, I just don't really think they're doing a lot to really address that.

Ty (24:17)

Well, I kind of disservice, though, in a way to say, or even to have that expectation of, like, oh, well, nothing's different than this child and adopt. Well, it's a huge. There's a huge difference. I mean, like, to pretend. I think it's really, well, damaging and disservice to pretend.

Connor Howe (24:31)

That was the entire industry for about 5,000 years, probably. They would literally match children with people who looked as closely to the. Like, they would try to physically match children with their adopters. And I mean, there's a whole history. There's a whole history of racism and adoption. They. Until after the civil rights movement, adoption agencies would not facilitate adoptions of black children at all. And if they did, and there's a child that was like, let's say 15% black, whatever, and it turns out they're black, like, five years from now, the adoption agency, they didn't just have a return policy where it's like, you can send this kid back. They would actually go to the adoptive family and be like, they, hey, we need to take this kid back from you, because it's a social injustice for you to be raising a black child. Basically, like, you don't. You deserve a better child, or whatever. I mean, that sounds really bad. But that's the history of adoption in America. The history of racism in America, too, obviously. And there were people that were. Have adopted. Had adopted children that were like, well, we love this child. We don't want to give this child back. And they'd be like, all right, but, you know, we got to keep an eye on you guys. Basically. Like, that was a very, very. The majority of history of adoption in the U.S. black children were not allowed to be adopted. And obviously, people who wanted to adopt who are black were not involved in the process at all because they couldn't adopt white kids. And that's. I mean, people wonder why so many black children, like, whatever. Like the whole adoption, black people versus white people thing, it's. There's a giant history of segregation and racism and eugenics in adoption. I mean, the adoption connection to eugenics is. Is insane as well. And yeah, I mean, like, ultimately, it's. It's always been kind of this pay to play system, and they would try to find the most beautiful children to give to people, and they would try to match children with people who looked exactly like them so that they never. Like, the whole. The concept of, like, telling adoption is a big thing for a really long time too. Like, and people today will be like, well, I've always known I was adopted. My adoptive parents are so great. It's like, I mean, that's kind of been a norm for like 50 years now. But for many years of adoption history, it wasn't a norm because, again, they would match you to people who supposedly looked like you had the same intellect as you. And actually, before it was matching by intellect and genes and stuff, it was matching by race or by. By religion. So there was a huge, like, early 1920s to 1950s. It was like, Catholic kids go with Catholic adopters, Protestant kids go with Protestant adopters. And the whole, like, I don't want to get super into adoption history, but the whole orphan train movement. Google orphan trains. It's very interesting because it was literally like a Christian versus Protestant thing. They're like, we have all these Catholic kids or all these Protestant kids, and we want them to end up with the Protestant families of the Catholic families. Because they don't want to. They want to make sure that there's a. Like, they want to be their number, their group, to be a bigger group of people in the United States. Yes. Like, Catholics want more Catholics, Protestants want more Protestants. So this big war over, like, we need the children to be ours. We don't want them to go to this, you know, other family that's going to indoctrinate them with the Protestant whatever.

Ty (27:20)

Which I think, honestly, people. People will say a lot of time, but it's like, you know, the truth of the matter is religion has a huge. A huge part to play.

Connor Howe (27:26)

Oh, yeah.

Ty (27:27)

In the whole system and how it all works well.

Kate (27:28)

And I feel like with adoption, there's so many. Like, you can get into so many black holes of adoption. Like, if you start just like you were talking about the orphan trains and the religion and the black babies versus white babies, like, there's. If people were to educate themselves fully on certain things, like, it's crazy.

Connor Howe (27:46)

That's why I do what I do. I'm trying to simplify it for people so that you don't have to read all the books that I'm reading.

Kate (27:52)

No, but I love, I love that you are. But that's one of the things that I love about your. Your videos and stuff like that is because you come. You come at it with an education, an educational poll where it's like, you've done the digging, you've done the research, you are an adoptee. And it comes off very educational with like facts and proof to back it up.

Connor Howe (28:11)

I mean, it's just a special interest, you know. And I feel like people, I feel like if the, I think there's so many people that are in the world of adoption that are well meaning people that don't even understand the foundations of the industry that they've created, the monster they've created. Again, people can have good, you can say that an industry is bad and people can have, you know, whatever experiences they have. Ultimately, it's a question of like, you know, when private infant adoption, which I would not classify as any version of child welfare, when you're spending, you know, these adoption agencies are charging 10, 15, $20,000. Not just to facilitate an adoption, they're charging 50 to 100 for that. They're charging 10 to 15 to $20,000 just for marketing. Like so. So that is like, it's crazy to think that. And they, they get their product for free.

Ty (28:57)

Yeah.

Connor Howe (28:57)

And they, that they charge the, they put the burden of the cost of marketing onto their consumers. Right. Like so the reason that adoption is as expensive as it is is because they are spending and like an unfathomable amount of money on marketing and they're passing that cost on to the people that are adopting children.

Ty (29:15)

Which in a moral standpoint, isn't that weird? We're marketing to women in crisis to relinquish their children. Or marketing.

Connor Howe (29:21)

Yeah.

Ty (29:22)

That is so strange.

Connor Howe (29:23)

It's a very like, it's okay.

Kate (29:25)

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Connor Howe (31:17)

I mean, again, I'm a marketer probably like 10 years. What's one other industry where you're not marketing to the person buying the product, you're marketing to source your product. It's a very weird, weird, shady thing. And if you actually see the ads, it's like, I think, you know, I think really, anyone who is hoping to adopt or curious about adoption, if I could say one thing to anyone, it would be, if you're curious about an adoption agency, go look at the ads they put on the Internet. You will be surprised by what they say, I promise you. Because there are. And look, I'm sure there are some adoption agencies that are not promising money to people, but there are a lot of adoption agencies who, some of them will give you the money to people. They'll, they'll fly you to another state so that you're away from your family and friends and you're in this housing and the only way to get home is to take a Greyhound bus. But there's also. Which, like, obviously that's just there so that you feel like I have no other choice. Yeah, there's also agencies that will say cash for birth moms, question mark and it's like, but they're not even giving money. They're just trying to suck. Like, they know that everyone else is promising stuff. And so they're like, well, we got to promise stuff. That's kind of the history of adoption is really. Yeah, it was a, it was a battle between black Market adoption and the quote, unquote, like, good people who are, like, actually trying to make a difference. And you can see throughout adoption history, so many people who are, well meaning, who are like, how do we compete with the black market? We got like, to. To. To make sure that adoption is a quote, unquote, good thing, we gotta compete with the black market. And it's like, was it never a question of, like, maybe we just legislate away the black market and try to make it a more, you know, healthy process for everyone involved. But even today, I mean, you can. On the buy side of adoption, like, now it's super popular with influencers to go through. They call, like, adoption consultants, which you. Basically, it's a very complicated process, but basically they have. On one side, you have consultants on one side, you have like a facilitator. And then the adoption agency is kind of in the middle. But if you're on the buy side, like the consumer side, you're only dealing with these consultants. You're not dealing really with the agency. You're not really dealing with, you know, the quote, unquote, birth mom. And then on the. On the facilitator side, you have a birth mom who's only really dealing with the, you know, the facilitator. She's not really dealing with the agency. She's not really dealing with the hopeful adopters. And maybe they have like, you know, if it's an open adoption, maybe they see each other once or twice or whatever. But it's now this totally fragmented process, basically a way of creating more money, introduce, like, making a more profitable thing. Because these people can charge more. These people can charge more in the adoption agencies, kind of just like in the middle. But it's a very. Like, if you're looking at it from the consumer side, you can. You can go and adopt a child without having to go through a license adoption agency because you're.

Ty (34:00)

We're.

Connor Howe (34:01)

You're working with. You're not working with the agency. You're working with people who are like matchmakers who are then working with the agency who are working with these people.

Ty (34:07)

Yeah, you said you're. What does that mean? What do you mean by adoption consultant? Is that different from adoption counselor? Is that different from.

Connor Howe (34:12)

Yes, a consultant is like a separate entity. They're not a licensed adoption agency. And there is actually. Last year, the Federal Trade Commission sent out a warning letter to a number of adoption consultants. Anyone can Google this. But yeah, I mean, now it's very common with influencers. I've seen Influencers literally promote adoption consultants by name on their social media. And those are the people that are doing the shadiest types of adoption. These are the people that are making job.

Ty (34:37)

Exactly. The adoption consultant contacts the agency, the agency contacts.

Connor Howe (34:40)

The adoption consultant has a list of agencies that they work with. Basically it's just a way of putting another middleman into the process. And it's kind of like the semi open adoption thing. People don't realize the semi open adoption means just. Just means that you have a middleman that's in between you and then, you know, Branch Reese or Don is your. That's the Don being there is the. Is what makes it semi open. That's the only difference between that and open adoption, basically. But the. When it comes to the consultant stuff, it's basically like that you have two entities and then you have the agency in the middle, but no one's really working directly with the agency. This side's working with this side, the other side's working with the other side.

Ty (35:14)

Well, none of it's regulated. I mean that's weird.

Connor Howe (35:17)

And what's really. I made a video on this a while ago, but it really is telling. There's, you know, I like to do intel on my enemies and I listen to all the like adoption industry podcasts. I listened to like the consultants, I listened to the agencies. And there was one adoption consultant who on. On video said, you know, I've worked with a lot of adoption agencies. There's only three adoption agencies in the entire country that I fully trust. And I'm like, well, you work with more than three adoption agencies at a time. So what does it say about you? And then also what does that say about this process that you are willing to say that there are so many agencies out there that you are unwilling like that you think that I don't like working with them. I mean, I'll work with them if I have to. But like it's very like you're introducing just more. The consulting is too difficult to explain. Like it's weird though.

Ty (36:05)

You're charging money to.

Connor Howe (36:07)

It's just another. It's another person to take a cut out of everything, basically.

Kate (36:10)

Well, and it makes me think back to like I saw your video about what's her name? Bobby Brown.

Connor Howe (36:16)

Oh, Millie. Bobby Brown.

Kate (36:17)

Yeah, yeah. And how she adopted a baby.

Connor Howe (36:19)

Yeah, I don't know if she used a consultant, but it's. That's.

Kate (36:21)

Well. Right. But I saw a lot of people attacking her as far as the fact of her being at a young age and Being able to bear her own children.

Connor Howe (36:30)

Yeah.

Kate (36:30)

I saw her getting a lot of hate for that. And then I also.

Ty (36:33)

Her privilege too. I mean.

Kate (36:34)

Right. That's what I'm thinking. Like when you, you know. Well, right. And I saw her getting a lot of hate for that. And then also too, it makes me think of. I saw things coming out about, what was it, Angelina Jolie's daughter or something, and her birth mom was actually alive and not dead. But I don't know. So it just makes me think of all these, like rich people or influencers adopting babies. And it's like, well, the thing about.

Ty (36:57)

It is, though, is that. And people will, on the other side of it will say, it's so difficult. Me, my husband, have been trying for so long, we can't get approved. But yet Millie Bio Brown is right.

Connor Howe (37:05)

Yeah, that's right. I feel like that's where the outrage really should be. It's very interesting that if, like, people who are hoping to adopt or thinking about adopting one day will look at Millie Bobby Brown adopting and they'll be like, wow, she's just like me, like, I want to adopt, you know, And I'm like, you do realize she just cut you in line, right? Like, for everybody that becomes available for adoption, there's 45 people, like, plus their. Plus ones, if they have a plus one, you know, spouse or whatever that are waiting to adopt. So. So it's like there's a very, very, very low supply, Very, very, very, very high demand industry.

Kate (37:37)

Yeah.

Connor Howe (37:37)

And it says a lot that, like, yeah, influencers, celebrities could just cut high money.

Ty (37:42)

Weird.

Kate (37:42)

Because they have money.

Ty (37:43)

No, but that's what I'm saying, though. And it. But if money wasn't the end all, be all game, then that wouldn't happen. So that's proof, in my opinion. It's just. There it is.

Connor Howe (37:50)

It's just pay to play. That's really what it comes down to. And people don't really understand that. I mean, like, if you guys wanted to adopt today, you'd have a lot easier time than me. You know, because of your peer visible, you have money. Like, and it's. It is. It's a difficult thing to reconcile because ultimately, again, it's like, is adoption supposed to be this pay to play game? Like, what. What does it say about a system where people will wait for five years and other people will wait for five weeks or five months?

Kate (38:16)

Right.

Connor Howe (38:17)

It's a class and it's issue and it's class. It says so much more that like in adoption for decades and Decades. I mean, we already talked about the racism and discrimination. I mean, they would exclude people for whatever reasons of your. You want to. You're single, you want to adopt. No. You're black, you want to adopt. No. You're gay, you want to adopt. No. Like, but for whatever reason, and we still see it all the time, people are abused or murdered by the people who adopt them. It's like, you really can't filter out anyone. Like, you discriminated. You just. You did discrimination for, like, 100 years, but you're not willing to discriminate against for some. Like, you have 45 couples waiting for every baby. You can't take that number down from a million to 100,000 or 500. Like 500,000. Like, it's just kind of crazy. And it's like, yeah, I mean, going back to the open adoption thing, I mean, you get families who want, like, will lie and be like, we'll do the open adoption. We're happy to do that because we want what's best or whatever. And I'm not saying this about any particular people, but, like, there's some people who will make. Who will say that, and they never have that intention from the outset, you know, and it's like, how is this, like, how is letting people who are going to, like, consciously break promises adopt children?

Ty (39:31)

Like, well, I actually had an adoptive woman write me. She was a perspective, and now she's not anymore. But she was like, you know, listen to your podcast and talking about it and stuff. I. I went to the agency and she looked at a couple of different agencies and she said that she got matched or whatever, and they said that, you know, she wants an open adoption. And she's like, okay. And she's like. And then the agency lady told her, like, but you don't have to really do it. And she was like, I. And I. And I. I thanked her for writing because I was like, thank you so much for being honest, because she's. I walked out of that building that.

Kate (40:01)

We should get her on here.

Ty (40:02)

She's like.

Connor Howe (40:02)

And I felt.

Ty (40:03)

Yeah, I felt sick because I can't believe that she just told me that. I. It's okay. Don't worry about it.

Kate (40:08)

Yeah, you can tell them that. But once you leave, you don't have to.

Ty (40:10)

You don't have to. And she's like. She's like, I. And she's like, now, now.

Kate (40:13)

I thought she was a good person.

Ty (40:15)

And I said. I said, you are. You need to be louder about it because I don't think people Understand that that's how kind of how this whole thing works. What I think comes back to people saying, oh, well, adoption is only bad when it's closed, and it's better not. Let's open. Well, Connor, you. You are an adoptee from an open adoption. So what was. What was it like? When did you first.

Kate (40:35)

Yeah. What is your journey?

Ty (40:37)

Yeah, yeah.

Connor Howe (40:38)

I mean, I grew up open, so my mom was in Ireland at the time when she was like, a teenager and got pregnant. My dad was, like, not interested in parenting, from what I understand. So she flew back to the US eventually decided to relinquish me for adoption. Open adoption. Born and raised, San Diego. My mom, for a few years of my life was in San Diego. She started moving around as I got older. But, yeah, basically I saw her like once a year. It's kind of like Carly. I mean, it was like, pretty similar. Like you. It's. It's always kind of like supervised. The kid is never really the one that's, like, making the plans. It's usually like the adopters or maybe sometimes they're working together to kind of set something up. The adopters, the natural parent, whatever. And yeah, I mean, even as I got older, I, like, it's really funny. I've been talking with my, like, adoptive parents about, oh, I want to write a book. Or I want. I don't know, I just want to get all the papers basically from when I was a kid to. To, like, if I want to write a book. Which is gonna be tough because I destroyed all of my journals when I was a kid because I didn't want anyone to know how I felt about all this adoption stuff. But I. My adoptive mom, like, gave me this. They took me to get this, like. Like, psychological evaluation when I was, like, in fifth grade. Like, I was reason. I mean, like, I was kind of on the spectrum, but also like, I am. I am kind of on the spectrum, but I think it was very much the, like, he's not happy. What's going on? Because I was like, fucking sorry. We swear on common here. I was a high achiever. Like, super high achiever in school. Like, on paper, I was a great kid, but I was miserable. And I was making everyone else's lives in my home miserable as well. Like, I'm screaming all the time, Meltdowns all the time. My brother and I were very physically violent with each other. And I think that they were like, we want to be happy. Like, what are we gonna do? We tried sending you there. They tried everything.

Ty (42:22)

Like, they tried Is your brother also adopted?

Connor Howe (42:24)

No. Four months younger, too. It's very weird.

Kate (42:27)

Four months younger is that we said.

Connor Howe (42:28)

Yeah. So, yeah, basically, like, I've, as an adult might, like, in the past year or two, I get this paper. These papers back, and it's like, on the papers it says, like, we talked to Connor's adoptive mother. Connor hasn't seen his biological mother in four years. He would like to see her. And I'm like, I went four years out seeing my mom, and I don't even remember that. I asked my adoptive family, like, do you guys remember this? They're like, no, I don't. I don't remember that. I asked my mom about that. She's like, I don't really remember that. I'm like, so everyone just kind of, like, has amnesia about the fact that I went, like, four years out seeing my mom. Like, it's a huge deal, you know?

Ty (43:02)

Huge deal.

Connor Howe (43:03)

So, yeah, like, I saw my mom for the first couple. Like, I have pictures with her. Like, the only Christmas I ever spent with my mom. I don't remember because. Because it was when I was a baby, you know? Um, and then, like, as I got older. Yeah, I saw. I guess I saw her about once a year, I would say, like, she was in my high school graduation. She, like, she walked me out. Both my moms walked me out of the aisle at my wedding. Like, as I turned 18, really, I was, like, very interested in knowing my mom as best I can. I have a bunch of technically half siblings, but I have a bunch of siblings that are like, high school age, college age, a little older. And. Yeah, like, I've always kind of, like, felt that connection with my mom just in a very profound, tangible way. I've always, you know, had that connection, my siblings as well. I also think a lot of that connection comes from this, like, not being able to just, like, your mom's not at your fingertips. Like, my mom is just a picture on my. On my nightstand. And that's all I have of her. And it really. Like, people talk about open adoption. Like, it's great and. And that, like. But it really creates this. Like, you're. You're a kid and you're just fantasizing about what? Again, just for me, don't wanna speak for anyone else.

Kate (44:06)

No, but it's very common.

Connor Howe (44:07)

It's very common that I'm just fantasizing about my mom and thinking, wow, like, what would my life look like if I was living with her or if I got to see her more or just there's a. I have a million different parallel universes that my life could have been different. They talk. Like, in Betty Jean Lifton's book from, like, I think the 70s or 80s, she talks about the ghost kingdom. She's like, one of the first adoption adopted people who's, like, a pioneer, right? Of, like, talking about adoption, the ghost kingdom being like, I have this parallel universe that looks totally different. If one thing is different, right? If my dad parents me with my mom or my mom parents me on her own. Like. And yeah, when you're. I'm a kid, I'm just fantasizing about, like, what is. What could this be like? And then obviously, you get into a reunion, and it's not as easy. It's not as simple as that. Doesn't mean it's bad, but it's just complicated. And yeah, I mean, as, like, as I got older, it really, really, really started becoming more of their family, I would say, in the past, like, once my kid was born, I basically had a midlife crisis. I started really thinking about this adoption stuff. But I've always, like. I mean, when I was in college, I guess I wrote. I found this the other day that I had, like, I wrote a paper or I gave a presentation on adoption. I said, adoption is trauma. When I was, like, 18. I have no idea how I knew to say that. But yeah, I. I got older, I started, like, really making it a priority. Like, I want to be part of my family. Like, I will always be a black sheep in both my families. Just for me, again, only speaking for myself. Like, I always feel like adoption kind of makes you the black sheep, whether you want to be or not. Um, some people might feel differently. Uh, but I was like, I want to be more a part of this family. I grew up and it's like, this is your birth mom. This is, you know, her name. It's. These are your half siblings. The language in adoption tells you that these people are family and these people aren't.

Ty (45:42)

Interesting. Yeah, when you put it like that. Like, the labeling.

Connor Howe (45:45)

I always wanted to call my mom mom, but it was so, like an. It was such an uncomfortable proposition because it's like, are people gonna think I'm betraying my adoptive family by calling my mom my mom and my brother, my brother, my sisters, my sisters. But, yeah, when I had this midlife crisis, my kid is born, I started thinking about all this stuff. I started listening to all the podcasts, reading all the books, really digging deep into all this stuff, and I was like, I got to connect with My mom, I got to connect with my Irish side. So I've been doing all that stuff. And I mean, yeah, I mean, at this point it's like my mom just moved back to San Diego. So I, like, I'm very much. Like, I'm a part of both of my families. Like, they're pretty equal in my eyes. I mean, obviously I have. There's certain people in both my families that I gravitate closer to.

Kate (46:25)

Right.

Connor Howe (46:25)

For. But like, I have good relationships for the most part with everyone, with both families.

Kate (46:29)

Well, going back to when you were younger.

Connor Howe (46:31)

Yeah.

Kate (46:32)

Because I think it's interesting, especially with you having an open adoption. Do you remember, like, having these visits with your birth mom and like, the feelings or emotions that brought for you up for you after, like, you had to say see you later or goodbye?

Connor Howe (46:45)

Yeah, it's always been a very, very, very painful thing to say goodbye. And I remember very distant, distinctly. Like, I don't remember exactly how old I was. That's probably in elementary, middle school. I remember going to a Red Robin with my mom and like, she gave me the whole, like, speech. I mean, she told. I always knew I was adopted. I always, like, my mom was never, like, she never withheld anything from me necessarily. But like, I remember her telling me my whole story, like how she got pregnant. She was in Ireland, and this is all I know about your dad and blah, blah, blah. And I just remember. And she tells me too, like, you just looked so uncomfortable. You had no idea what to say. And I was like, yeah, I don't know what to do. But at the same time, like, I love my mom so much. I've always felt this tangible connection to my mom that I just don't feel in my other family. And it's not like an insult to them. They, for a very long time, they were very, like, hurt that like, we didn't have that connection like when I was young. But as I get older, it's like they, they understand it. Like when I bought the Primal Wound on Amazon, my adoptive parents were like, Because I use my mom's account, my mom, my. My mom saw that I bought the Primal Wound and they read it.

Kate (47:46)

Oh, good.

Ty (47:47)

Oh.

Connor Howe (47:47)

And then like, oh, my God, like, we all. I had a blow up fight with my mom in a Starbucks parking lot. I had a blow up fight with my dad in a deli. And then it was about the Primal Wound book. Like, I don't know if it was about the book, but it was like right after they read the book, I had a massive Fight with both of them, each individually, both in public. And then after that it was cool. It was like, I like, things with them were so bad for so many years of my life. Like, my wife and I first started dating, my wife is like, Connor, I hate, like when we go to your parents house, I'm so uncomfortable because you are not you when you're at your parents. Really? Oh, yeah. I.

Ty (48:23)

What does that mean, though? Because she obviously knows you better than.

Connor Howe (48:25)

Very withdrawn, very. Like. I didn't want them to see me happy. I didn't want. I felt like if I was, if they saw me happy, it would be this like, credit to. I don't know. I felt like it was a very much like again, I've always felt like this kind of poster child, like if I'm happy, that says something about my like adoption or experience or life. And I just, I didn't want to make them mad or anything, but I, I didn't feel comfortable being vulnerable like that in front of them really ever.

Kate (48:53)

Did you feel like you could be vulnerable with your, your.

Connor Howe (48:56)

Not really. I mean, like, like, like I didn't really know her that well. I, I could complain about things to her that I couldn't complain about to my other family, you know, but it's. I, I don't. I've always been. I've. I think I've always had struggles with vulnerability in general. But I will say that, like, again, after I read this, the primal wound, after they read it, they didn't get 100% of it, but they, they got it to an extent that like, helped them understand more. When I say that like, being adopted sucks, they're not like, you can't say that. Don't be such a victim. I mean, that was like my life for many, many years. Oh, wow. It's like victim. Yeah. Don't have the victim mentality. That was like a big thing, which is whatever. I mean, I don't blame boomer parents for being like that.

Ty (49:34)

Yeah.

Kate (49:34)

Yeah. But that also, to me, it makes me, it makes sense. Me think of like, well, you're not educated then about what adoptees go through.

Connor Howe (49:40)

They don't know there's no mandatory education. I mean, they, they are like, oh, yeah, we went to this like, seminar where an adopted person and a birth parent and adoptive parent.

Kate (49:48)

Not reality though.

Connor Howe (49:49)

But the agency is finding the people that they're finding. No one's ever asked me to go speak in an option agency. And I'm not telling, hey, you know, if you're. I will speak to Whoever. But I don't, like, I understand why they're not interested in having to speak to them.

Kate (50:03)

Right.

Connor Howe (50:03)

But again, people don't realize that, like, if they're hand selecting these people, it's not like they're just throwing their. Casting their net into this wide group of people and just like whoever they pick up, they pick up. No, they're going to pick up the people that make adoption look what good.

Ty (50:19)

For them, which is also going back to marketing. We got to market this thing to make it look really.

Connor Howe (50:24)

And it's again, it's like, how is, how is this child welfare? Again, like, how. Why? It doesn't make sense. Some of these adoption agencies have $1 million plus in investment income every year. It's like they're doing the Ponzi scheme. Like, they're doing the, they're doing the hedge fund thing. Just like all the colleges and all these big businesses that are just pouring a bunch of money into investments. And it's like, why are we. Why are you guys. You guys are making all the preservation, putting all this money. Yeah. If this is about, like, preserving families. And again, open adoption was a concept that was originally designed to preserve families. I mean, not in the sense that they still were like, well, we still got to make our. Like, we still got to do our thing and facilitate these adoptions, but maybe we can do it in a way that doesn't completely just cut the connection between the adopted person and the family they came from. Because, like, on paper, like, I'm not legally related to my sisters or my brother or my mom, you know, and it's like, it is what it is. Like, it doesn't really matter.

Ty (51:18)

Yeah, but that's important to people.

Connor Howe (51:20)

And some people that might. Yeah, some people that definitely might matter to. But it's like, I mean, in that sense, it's just weird. Why is my kid not related to her aunts and uncles or her grandparents because of a transaction that happened in the 1990s? Like, it's just. Why. What is so threatening about having two, like, families on paper in some whatever sense of the term that looks like, you know, people have step parents, people have more than two legal parents, quote, unquote, in all kinds of arrangements. But in adoption, it's always a matter of, like, exclusivity in the terms of, like, parenthood, basically.

Ty (51:55)

Well, throughout your open adoption, did you have, like, did you have the freedom, Freedom to contact your birth mom whenever you wanted?

Connor Howe (52:01)

I mean, like, I don't. I wouldn't say that it was restricted, but Like, I didn't feel comfortable, like, talking to her. I didn't have her phone number. I didn't know where she lived. I would, like. Man, I was thinking about this yesterday, and this sounds really, really dark, but I was watching this movie that really triggered me. I was watching the account, and I saw this kid having meltdowns. I was like, oh, my gosh. I had all these meltdowns as a kid, and now it's just, like, clicking with me again. It sounds really bad. It felt like I was in, like, a hostage situation where my mom was, like, kidnapped. And every time I got, like, a picture of her, I got, like, a present from her or I saw her, like, once a year. That's like, proof of life. Like, your mom's still alive, you know? And I have this dad out there who I know nothing about. I don't know if he's alive. I have to check Google, like, once a month to see if my dad's still alive, because it's like, his obituary might show up any day. You know, I've never met him, but that's. It's very. Like, I wasn't even pen pals with my mom, you know, I was a pen pal. I had, like, an adoptive aunt that lived in Minnesota who I was, like, pen pals with in school. I talked to her more than I talked to my mom. I didn't know her that well, you know, she was just my dad's sister who lived in Minnesota. Like, I saw her once every five. Like, it's weird to know that, like, yeah, my adoptive family cared, but not enough to really make. I shouldn't say them. I don't know. For whatever reason, it wasn't a big enough priority in my life for that connection to exist. And I think that people want it to exist. I believe that. Like, again, I said my. I didn't see my mom for, like, four years. I don't know why that is, but if I had to guess, I believe that my adoptive parents got really bad advice from, like, a therapist or some sort of professional.

Kate (53:31)

And nobody's ever. Have you ever asked the question? And nobody has ever explained why? Oh, yeah. You said that they supposedly didn't remember, right?

Connor Howe (53:37)

Yeah, I really don't think they do. They're old. Like, it's just one of those things. Like, I. Yeah, I really think that there's one thing people also don't talk about in adoption is that it's like adopted people are much more likely. And by proxy, the people connected to us are our natural parents. Our adoptive parent parents are much more likely to end up in a therapy, you know, a therapist's office. I think it's like three. Three times more likely, if I remember it right. And I want to say that the typical therapist. And this is from the book Adoption Therapy. I'm paraphrasing, I don't remember the exact number, but I believe it's like, 85% of undergraduate psychology students learn about adoption for like 10 minutes or less in their coursework throughout four years of school. And then I think it's 65% of graduate students learn about adoption for 10 minutes or less throughout those four years of coursework. So you have a bunch of therapists who, you know, I was growing up, going to therapy, and my therapist had no idea what to say. You know, I'm pretty sure I had a therapist that was like, oh, that happened a long time ago. Like, like what.

Kate (54:32)

But what I'm hearing from you, too, like, so being like, in an open adoption, getting to see your birth mom, you know, like once a year or whatever, and then having to say goodbye, knowing you have siblings, it sounds like it was painful for you.

Connor Howe (54:44)

It still is. I. That's. You asked me that earlier and I kind of forgot to get to it. The goodbyes are terrible. Like, I. I was saying this last.

Kate (54:50)

Night and see, and that's what makes me wonder, because I've always wondered. Like, I've talked to Ty about it and like, every time we would say bye to Carly or whatever, and we would be physically upset and just emotional for days, we would hold it, and I would always ask him, like, do you think she feels this?

Connor Howe (55:04)

I mean, I don't want to speak for Carly. I'm not saying you were, but I. I will say, say that for me, like, it is, in my experience, it was very painful. And I also think that there's a lot of adopters for better or for worse. I think in many cases, for better, well being, well meaning, not necessarily for better. Yeah. Who. Who see this child who is so distraught after seeing their parents and think, wow, they. They must. Like, they shouldn't be around their parents because it really makes them upset. But it's.

Kate (55:30)

I could see how they could, like you said, not for, like, doing it for good, but they were thinking, like, oh, it causes a lot of distress, stress or whatever.

Connor Howe (55:36)

Yeah. Because it's like you. It's. Again, it's proof of life. Right. But then your mom is kidnapped again for the next year or whatever. And so it's like, it's very much Like a. Again, I really am not a finger pointer. And I, I. When I was younger, I was much more of a finger pointer than I am now. I was. I would have been very happy to be like my parents, blah, blah, blah. It's very much like a. It's very difficult to. To leave. Yeah. I mean, every time I see my siblings and my. Every time I see my mom, it's like, I, I don't leave until someone's like, all right, you know, like, you get the hint, you know, like, and, and. Or my kid has to go to sleep or something. Like. But even then, I'll stay up past her bedtime to spend time with them. Like, I was Christina last night. Like, it's so bad. I get to the point where I'll leave my. Like, I'll be at my grandma's house with everyone, and I'm like, I really gotta take a piss. And I'm like, I don't go to the bathroom when I'm with them because that's time I'm losing with them, you know? Like, it is. Every single minute matters to me down to the second. And to leave is such a bitter, you know, feeling for me. And, yeah, I mean, I would love to know how it feels for my mom or for anyone. Like, I. It's. That's one of those things it's, like, very taboo to talk about. I feel like an adoption. And on top of that, I think also, like, the goodbyes are really hard. And I think also the reunion is just really complicated in general, you know, Like, I am. I don't want to speak for my mom, but I would imagine that I am a living reminder of, like, the hardest moment of my mother's life, you know, and my mother is a reminder of the. The most, like, painful part of my life. That's adopt. That's open adoption. That's best case scenario. That's me seeing my mom. More than 99% of adopted people saw their families or I. I've even seen my mom, you know, most of it. A lot of adoption people, if not most, don't know who their parents are, don't know their names, have never met them, have no ability to meet them, even if they want to.

Ty (57:23)

You had that accident so complicated, the reunion?

Connor Howe (57:25)

Yeah, that's the best. That's like, people talk about me and they're like, well, he must have just had bad parents or he's just bitter or he had a bad experience. Like, I had, like, a best case scenario, adoption. I'm not saying I'm happy about it. It's incredibly painful and complicated and difficult. It's hard. How do you navigate a relationship with someone when your relationship, that person is built on a foundational, like, massive trauma that both of you have experienced?

Ty (57:54)

How did your parents handle, like, when you headed the visits? Were they. So obviously they would hang out with you when you were, you know, with your bio mom.

Connor Howe (58:01)

And then, like, I think when I was younger, they did. And then as I got older, they were very much like, you can kind of do your thing. Like, I remember they paid for me to fly up to visit her when she was living in Washington. When I was, like, high school or college. I flew to visit her when she was living in Italy. Like, they've been very supportive. They have given me a lot of money to just go spend time with my mom. And my mom's really, like, my mom treats me like a son, too. I mean, when she was moving away from San Diego, she, like, years ago, now she's back in San Diego. But when she's moving away, years ago, she, like, gave me her old car because she was like, well, I'd rather just give it to you than try to sell it.

Ty (58:31)

Like, right.

Connor Howe (58:31)

Like, I really do have, like, a familial relationship in whatever way that looks like being adopted with both of my families. I really have, like, a quote, unquote, best case. Like, I'm not just saying that to make what makes myself sound more credible. Like, I really do have, like, a very, very, like, it's just complicated. I don't even like to say positive because it's. Again, it's like, how do you. How do you say that this is a positive thing when there's so much pain involved and there's so much complexity and it's like a homework assignment that you have to finish that, like, no one has taught you the lesson. Like, how do you navigate reunion when the adoption agency is not telling you? Here's what to do. You don't have therapists who have any idea what to say for the most part. I mean, look, if you're adopted or you're involved with adoption, Google the adoptee. What is Adoptee Therapist Directory? You can find a bunch of adopted, adopted people who are therapists. And I don't. I don't. I can't promise that all those people are perfect. Obviously there's, like, better help. And your sponsor. There's a lot of. A lot of people that are trying to become more adoption competent. And also, you can always just. If you have a therapist who doesn't get it. Get him a book. Or be like, hey, can you please read the Primal Wound and see if you understand it? Because there are so many therapists out there that don't understand it. There's. There's not a playbook. And so you get to this point where everyone else has a playbook. How do you navigate, like, life when you're at 30 years old and you're having fights with your mom for the first time? Because the first 29 years of your life, you had no vulnerability in your. In your relationship with each other, you know, and, like, or your siblings or whoever. Right. It's. It's. It's creating a relationship with someone when you're an adult. But. But, like, you miss out on. On the foundation, 29 years of life together.

Kate (60:05)

Like, it's just. Yeah. Confusing. Painful, not knowing how to navigate it at all, because you don't know. And. Wow.

Ty (60:14)

Well, especially when adoptive parents also, like, if. If they're. If they're clinging on to this idea that it was the best and it was. It was all. I mean, it's hard to break that. And I've seen it online, even with comments like, I adopted. My. My baby's fine. They love it. They don't want anything to do with their biofilm. They never want to look for them. And I'm like, yeah. And then I'm like, yeah. I'm like. I'm like, yeah. But the more I talk to adoptees, the more I see this very common thing of, like, having to emotionally monitor everyone constantly and making sure I'm using.

Kate (60:40)

The right language, even subconsciously.

Ty (60:42)

Yeah, they're not aware of it, but they're like. I mean, like. Like you said, like, I had to. You know, when I'm with them, I have to, you know, okay, like, everything's fine. If I'm happy. It represents this.

Connor Howe (60:52)

And it's like, it's all by design. Yeah, it's all by design. Because if you educate people about the trauma that adoption entails, and again, it's a trauma. People come home from wars and say that they don't have. Like, I don't. I don't. I'm not. I don't. I didn't experience any trauma. That's fine. You might have PTSD and does not realize it, bro. But, like, trauma is trauma. Like, everyone experiences trauma to some extent. Adoption is a traumatic experience for everyone. Well, mostly, I would say the adoption, the natural parents. But, like, I mean, also people have experienced infertility, and that's what leads them to adoption. The system in itself is predicated on this idea that we just don't acknowledge that part until once the papers are signed. And then once the papers are signed, we can be like, okay, yeah, it's trauma, and. And let's, like, find a therapist and all this stuff. But really the reason they can't acknowledge it beforehand is because it makes the transaction less likely to happen. Right.

Kate (61:38)

You know what's crazy about your statement right there, too, is that I went years. Okay. Without even realizing that our relinquishment was trauma. I was literally in an inpatient facility. I put myself in this facility because I was wanting to unalive myself for a very long time to where it clicked. When a therapist. We had this whole conversation about, you know, us relinquishing and stuff. And she was like, that is trauma. And, you know, Carly was probably 8, 9 years old at that point.

Connor Howe (62:08)

Yeah.

Kate (62:09)

And I remember calling Tyler and being like, I never looked at it this.

Connor Howe (62:12)

Yeah. And you lived through so many years of your life, like, in this just, like, haze. And, like, so I couldn't even imagine what could our lives look like if we had access to therapy 20 years earlier right now? Like, why is it, like, there's shout out Linnell Long, there's an adopted person in Australia who. I don't. I think she. I think it still exists. She was able to get the government of Australia to, like, give, like, money to people to go get therapy. Like, if they're involved in adoption like that. If you're adopted, you get free access to therapy. I don't know for how long or how, like, it makes sense. Adopted people and our. Our parents, our families are so much more likely to end up in therapy. All these adoption agencies know it. Everyone involved in adoption knows it. They all know it. And no one really.

Kate (62:54)

They don't tell you that.

Connor Howe (62:55)

They don't say. They don't say anything. They don't give you access to resources. There's nothing like their new innovations are just trying to find new ways to get people to relinquish children. They invest, like, 99% of their resources into how do we just drum up new business? And it's like, how do we call adoption? Again, I understand that not all adoption is private infinite option. How do we call private infinite adoption? An institution of child welfare. When we are spending billions of dollars on marketing, we are like, it is. It's extortionary. The amount of money that people have to give to this adoption agency to. To. To get a child. Like, people don't realize, man, I like, I would run ads for like a truck, let's say, right? Like a Ford F150. Just a random truck. Let's say on average, a company like Ford is going to spend like 500 bucks to. On. On marketing to sell one of these trucks. These adoptions are spending 10,000. That's. And these are old figures, $10,000, let's say to. To on average, that they're charging an adoptive family regardless of whether they spend $10,000 on marketing for this particular child. But they're estimating that on average, they're spending $10,000 per child on marketing or per. Per mother to relinquish their child. Like, that is 20 times as much money to get a child than it is to. To sell a car that is going to sell for, in many cases, more than the child is going to sell for.

Ty (64:14)

Wow.

Connor Howe (64:15)

It's crazy. It's. It's the most inefficient use of money ever. I mean, marketing is just. Marketing is such an efficient use of money for so many businesses and adoption agencies spend such a perplexing amount of money on. On marketing. And it just goes to show, first of all, how deeply unpopular adoption is as a choice. It says a lot that they, it takes so much. When both of you, like, I mean, I see the video of Carly being born, and it's like the nurse is like, oh my gosh, the nurse saying, here's a baby. Here's a baby fresh from God. It's like that. I don't know if that's by design, but there is like, when you look at adoption, so much of this process is just designed to create adoptable children. I mean, it is. They're actively seeking people out. And if you look, I mean, I made a video the other day. If you look at the Spanish language ads for adoption right now in the United States, they're targeting people who are not here legally. They're saying, you don't need to have papers. They're literally like, they do all the same stuff. All the same. Like, you know, we can pay. We can give you free housing, we can give you rent. We can. You can get paid. All this stuff, which, some of it's true, some of it's lies, but on top of that, in Spanish, they're literally putting ads. It's like, no papelas necessarily. Like, they're, they're literally targeting specifically people who are not here legally because they probably, you know, they're praying they've figured out that that cohort of people you know, is a. Is a valuable cohort of people to them because maybe they think that their kid's gonna get citizenship through adoption, which the abbot. They bought that kid won't be connected to you anymore. Like there are all kinds of just things like this where it's like, how. Why you look at that again, you look at the ads and the ads will tell you everything you need to know about an adoption agency. It's really, really, really. Again, I don't want to say that every single adoption agency is from the devil, but the majority. I've looked at the. You. You can find the ads of any. I give me any adoption. See, I'll find you their ads. You can.

Kate (66:05)

No, they're kind of just. They're just.

Ty (66:06)

They're disturbing. Yeah, they're.

Connor Howe (66:07)

They're disturbing. They're the billboards.

Ty (66:09)

I see something.

Connor Howe (66:10)

Oh, the billboards too. Yeah.

Ty (66:12)

Yeah. This is so. And I guess that comes down to like when people ask, oh, is there any way to do this? And I'm like, well, as long as.

Connor Howe (66:18)

You are, why are we making money off these transactions? Foster care. You're not. That's. People don't. People. It's crazy that there's so many people lining up to adopt infants privately. When you can adopt from foster care, it costs you basically nothing.

Kate (66:29)

Right?

Ty (66:30)

And I think, I think that's important.

Connor Howe (66:31)

And I'm not a big proponent of foster care. If you really are looking at it from a purely financial sense.

Ty (66:36)

Right.

Connor Howe (66:36)

And this might blow your guys minds, what is the benefit of relinquishing a child privately versus relinquishing a child in foster care? Your child's gonna end up with a home. In either case, your child. Like there is an endless demand for adoptable infant children, whether it's in private or in foster care. In foster care, your kid is going to know where your kid comes from. You're not like, there are certain guardrails that exist in foster care. Even if you're like, I want this kid adopted as soon as possible. Like everything. Like everything. Like a private adoption. Private adoption doesn't offer anything to these women that foster care doesn't. But the reason so many people relinquish their children through the private adoption system is because these adoption agencies are seeking them out. If adoption wasn't this predatory business, if it was, if it was these agencies, if it really just costs $50,000 to get a lawyer to sign papers, which we all know is bs why, why is everyone relinquishing through these private adoption agencies instead of relinquishing through the state. Well, because they get sought out.

Ty (67:26)

Foster care system has such a bad, bad reputation. It gets the rabbit and people are afraid of it. I also, and I think it's important to talk about the difference between private infant adoption and foster care adoption because you know, to me it all comes down to if, if a family is looking to adopt a child and they can't have one biologically, whatever reason it is, and they want to be a parent, it's a lot different than wanting to help a child in crisis with, through foster care, which I think is like, people are like, oh well, don't adopt through the private industry or adoption industry. Adopt through foster care. Well listen, it's your intention though. If your intention is to be a parent and I want to have a child and raise and be a mom or be a dad, then you should not go, go adopt from foster care because that, that system is designed for children in crisis and to eventually have reunification.

Connor Howe (68:15)

It's the same thing though, really. It's. You have a bunch of vulnerable children who deserve connections to their families when, when it's Safe, which is 99% of the time. People might not like me saying that, but it's like you can have connections with a drug addicted parent and it, be it, you can manage that relationship in a safe way. I mean, obviously I don't have to tell you it's not necessarily always going to be like you don't need to be raised by that person necessarily, but you can safely facilitate these connections between children and the families and communities that they come from.

Ty (68:45)

It almost makes me a question, have you ever asked your adoptive mom why, why didn't you adopt through foster care?

Connor Howe (68:50)

I mean, no one's really thinking about that.

Ty (68:52)

You know what I'm saying?

Kate (68:53)

Well, and because I think, like me and you have said a few times too, is like almost that it's because.

Connor Howe (68:58)

When you search, the first thing you see is, is an agency.

Kate (69:00)

Well, right. And I feel like people think that they're getting this infant so it's just a blank space.

Connor Howe (69:07)

Why not keep your kid for three weeks and then you can always just give your kids the adoption agency.

Kate (69:12)

That's not gonna happen.

Connor Howe (69:13)

And of course it's out of fear of like, you know, well, I don't want to get too attached to my kid or whatever.

Ty (69:17)

But, but that fear is organic and natural and that maybe you're afraid of naturally connecting to the child that you have. Yeah. To fear something so biologically natural and organic. It's like, and I think the Doctor agencies prey on that fear.

Connor Howe (69:29)

I think they try to create that fear really of like it's gonna be painful for your child to be separated from you when they're older, when actually they've done so many studies throughout the years and really the age of that separation doesn't matter.

Kate (69:39)

No, it doesn't. It happens right there. Right then and there. Yeah.

Ty (69:42)

Like have you, have you. So have you talked to like your biological mom and does your biological mom have any relationship with your adoptive mom?

Connor Howe (69:48)

Yeah, they know each other. I mean they're not like best friends or anything, but they definitely have talked to each other like throughout your life.

Ty (69:54)

So you've seen them communicate with each other? You've witnessed them?

Connor Howe (69:57)

Yeah, I mean I haven't, we haven't all been in the same room very often. I mean definitely like at my kids.

Ty (70:01)

Birthday stuff that you had growing up.

Connor Howe (70:04)

I mean, I didn't, I didn't have a lot. I mean I saw her a few times through my childhood. As I got older, it became more of me and her.

Ty (70:11)

Okay.

Connor Howe (70:11)

Yeah. When I was young it was just her. But I think they, that's the thing is they built this trust. Like a big thing is trust. Like, I mean a lot of adoptive parents are very reticent to kind of allow, allow the child to like go unsupervised. Trust is huge. And it's like, I mean it really says a lot that like, why am I not allowed to make that choice? Right. But ye, yeah, that's just kind of an option for you.

Ty (70:36)

But did you ever feel like you could make that choice on your own? Did you? So I think a lot of adopties, when I, when I ask certain questions, they go, well, I, I wanted to, but I, and my parents never told me that I couldn't. But I never felt the freedom.

Connor Howe (70:49)

Yes, it's that, you know what I'm saying? It's because you want to, you're, you're trying to make everyone happy. And you're, the way I describe it is you're like in the middle of a scale and if you go in one direction, the other side, there's way taken off the other side. Right. You're always kind of afraid that going in one direction is going to hurt the other side.

Kate (71:04)

And what a lot of pressure to put on a kid.

Ty (71:06)

So much pressure.

Connor Howe (71:07)

Yeah. And it's obviously no, no individual person is doing that, but just the transaction of adoption. And how do you have. Yeah, it's just very, very like how do you create a dynamic where that doesn't exist. And obviously things, like, things are quote, unquote, different. I don't know how different they are today than they were when I was born. Honestly, for so many, so many years, adoption agencies have been saying, well, the past is the past. We're doing things differently now. I mean, they've been saying that since, like, the 20s. I mean, I don't really know what. How things. Different things are, but I will say that, like, I mean, I have seen people, supposedly, that's real. Where people are seeing their parents, like, more than I was seeing my mom, which is great. If that's what they want.

Kate (71:45)

Yeah. And I think. And I think it varies, but it varies.

Connor Howe (71:48)

It takes a very, like, certain type of person who is willing to kind of acknowledge that this matters to the child or this matters to the child's parents, like, at the end of the day, like adoption in itself and child welfare. Again, this might be a hot take for people. I know people have a lot of hot takes about opinions about foster care. It doesn't. Foster care and adoption and orphanages, any form of, like, external care, it doesn't exist solely for the child. It is. It is a way of the government to care for a family that needs help. Right. A kid in Asia that's living in an orphanage most of the time has living parents who will visit them at the orphanage sometimes, or who are trying to get their kid back but ultimately can't pay the bills. And so the kids living in the orphanage, the orphanage is like, you know, extended daycare for a really long time. The only difference between an orphanage and a foster care is just. We're like, we don't want a bunch of kids living in one building.

Ty (72:37)

Right.

Connor Howe (72:38)

With a handful of adults. We want all the kids in one. In a family setting. Right. That's the only difference. The goal for all of these kids is to go back to their families until. Until that goal becomes adoption. Obviously, there's kind of political politics involved in those decisions being made, but adoption is. Yeah, it's just different. It's like we. We're not looking at this through the lens of how do we help a family, how do we serve a family. We're looking at it whether it's foster care or private infant adoption, we've separated the child from the family in our heads. Like, yeah, as. As a society, this child is now a floating child. And the family, we can kind of try to facilitate that connection. But ultimately, what matters is the child and no one else. And I'm not here to say that, like, people like, you guys deserve. Like, I think the child should be the primary.

Ty (73:24)

Primary always.

Connor Howe (73:25)

But I really do believe that, like, why, why should we not care about the family? Like, why. It says a lot about America that we are so willing to separate these families and to. I mean, we have. How many people do we. How many, how many rich people complain about homeless people living on the street in this country? You know, we don't, like, we don't really. We are very willfully blind to a lot of the injustices that are happening. And I feel like people who are suffering from addiction, people who are, you know, dealing with, you know, dealing with housing insecurity or poverty or whatever the resources. And again, not every single adoption is born of that, but the extreme majority of adoptions are born of that. How many like, of these issues would be solved if we looked at these children and their families as a.

Kate (74:10)

Not.

Connor Howe (74:10)

I mean, again, you can look. Do it without looking at the family unit as a family unit. But how do we, why do we not look at these families and say, let's try to resource these people before we just invariably separate them, legally speaking. No, destroy that connection and then, by the way, subsidize adopters with a tax credit at $17,000. Right.

Ty (74:29)

Which is so. It's so strange because I think even that tax credit alone shows where. Who, who society is prioritizing here. There's a good book and it's priority. I mean, how can you say anything otherwise than that's what they're prioritizing? Because, I mean, it's, it's their desire to be parents or whatever the reason is. And that's why I always feel like I keep. The more we talk about this, I'm just like intent, intent. And if your intention is to be a parent and, and you want to be a mom and you want to do this and you can't have a child, well, then I think you should deal with that trauma right there. That, that, that loss, that grief before even thinking about any of the solutions. Solutions that we have available through adoption. Whatever. It's like, no, no. Deal with the fact that you cannot have your own children and. Yeah, yeah. I think it's more specific to private infant adoption. Well, right, yes, but it's the fact that we're prioritizing, you know, adoptive families, which really, in majority of the cases, they have more money, they're more financially stable, they have more resources, but yet we're still prioritizing them over the poverty, you know.

Connor Howe (75:28)

Well, it's not even just that we're like, we're resourcing them. There's a really good book called Poverty by America by Matthew Desmond where he talks about that. Basically, in the United States, we give more welfare to rich people than we give to poor people. That is the political reality. Mortgage. Mortgage deductions, like tax deductions, Family tax credits that only. I mean, yeah, corporate bailouts. It is like, we live in a very backwards country when it comes to a lot of policies in general, but especially, you know, hey, call my wife. Australia. Call my wife after this. I got my Irish passport all perfect.

Kate (76:02)

Let's go. I'm down.

Ty (76:03)

Me too.

Connor Howe (76:06)

But yeah, like, it's, it's. It's really assistant. Like, this is what happens when you turn your child welfare system into a marketplace.

Kate (76:12)

Yeah.

Connor Howe (76:13)

Privatized adoption is a marketplace. And, and it's. I don't want to point the finger at any individuals that are involved, but I. When I share what I share, I really hope that people who are listening can be like, it is weird that we are selling children. And I say that, and people are like, well, your mom's not sell. Like, my mom will be like, oh, I didn't sell you. And I'm like, yeah, you didn't. Right? You gave me for free to someone who sold me. Who sold me.

Ty (76:37)

Yeah.

Connor Howe (76:38)

And. And like, I'm not saying that is an indictment of my mom or my adoptive parents. It's just the way that the system works. And it feels weird to know that I was sold for $12,000 and that was like a discount compared to some, like some of these kids, you know? And it's. I made a video a long time ago, like a few months ago, I should say that did pretty well. And it was just, I got a bunch of adopted people, and I was like, how much. How much were you sold for? And we all just were like, I was sold for this. I was sold for this. And it's like some people were sold for like fifty thousand, a hundred thousand dollars. Some people like eight dollars, you know, and it's just like, what's the right. Like, it feels weird no matter what the number is. What's the right number to, like, right in your head when you're an adopted person and look like people will say, oh, why are they. Why are their parents even? It doesn't matter. The point is. The point isn't the fact that there's a number on my head the point or the point isn't the number on my head? The point is that there's a number on my head at all.

Ty (77:27)

And I wouldn't.

Connor Howe (77:29)

I don't have to know the number on my head to know that there was a number on. On my head. Right. Like, I know that I was sold. I knew that I was sold. I like, it's not. Yeah, so it's just very. It's very bizarre. It's a weird feeling. And again, like, I mean, there are ways to do, like, adopt. You can keep a lot of the good parts about adoption and get rid of the bad parts and make the system better. If you're not a, you know, believer in abolition or whatever. But we don't do that. We don't. We don't have any interest in looking at it differently.

Ty (77:54)

If you learn about it and then you come to conclusion that, oh, no, this system doesn't need to change at all, then we have big problems. I think, I think you're part of the main problem. Because if you're a lot of. And actually admit to yourself and say, oh, it's fine. It's the way it's good, the way it operates is great. It's like, then you are crazy. And I think you have.

Connor Howe (78:10)

That's America, bro. How many people need to suffer before we care about it? And it's like, you guys are in Michigan, like Flint water. Like, how many people. How many people need to suffer until someone will. Will consider something an issue in this country? And yeah, unfortunately, like there, like you said, there is no shortage of people that will say, we, well, I had a good experience or this person I know had a good experience, or X, Y or Z. People really don't have any interest in fixing systems that haven't wronged them. But that's. I mean, that's just empathy, right? Like, it's like understanding. Like, if people are suffering, I don't want them to suffer. I don't want anyone to suffer anywhere. And it's very. It's very frustrating when some of those same people who are like, well, you know, I'm. It's not hurting me or whatever, but then, okay, you're blind to this injustice, but then you want me to care about this other injustice that's happening and it's okay. You have selective injustice, you know.

Ty (78:56)

Yeah.

Connor Howe (78:57)

And it's like, I think.

Ty (78:58)

I think most adopted people, like, if they're in an open adoption or, or even just an adoptee learning about all this stuff, what's the one thing that maybe you wish you would have done or tried earlier or what would you tell them from.

Connor Howe (79:12)

From whose perspective? Adopt a person.

Ty (79:14)

Yeah. What would You. So another doctor person's like, oh, I've been having these feelings. I've been wondering about my family origin. I feel uncomfortable. Whatever. Like, what would you. What would your advice to be to them the next step?

Connor Howe (79:22)

I think it's really good to listen to other adopted people speak. Like your podcast, obviously. Another. I don't know if it's competing podcast adoptees on they've been. Haley's been doing that one for a long time. Get access to what adopt people are saying. There's some good books and have friends. You don't look adopted. Nicole Chung's all you can ever know. Read, like, listen to it. And this is good advice for anyone who has any connection to anyone involved in adoption. Understand. To understand like what it's like. No one will ever understand what it's like to be in someone's shoes that they can't walk in. Right. I don't understand what it's like to be in a black man's shoes. I don't understand what it's like to be in your guys shoes. But like, you can kind of understand some components of it, right? And adoption is such a foreign concept to most people. You hear so many people say love doesn't or blood doesn't make family, love makes a family. And it's like, I understand that you have good intentions when you say love makes a family, but when you say blood doesn't make a family, that is that. That part of this phrase only exists to tell me that me and you aren't family. Right? Me and my mom aren't family, you and your daughter aren't family. That there's no good intention behind saying blood doesn't make a family. Unless you're talking about, oh, I have a terrible dad. And I'm just trying to say that about my dad or whatever. Right? But that saying exists to create distance between us. Right? And so when it comes to an adopted person or somebody who wants to understand an adopted person, listen to us, right? Like read these books, listen to these podcasts, try to understand what it's like. Because it's so easy to say, well, if I was an adopted person, blood wouldn't matter to me. And it's like, you don't know that.

Kate (80:46)

Right?

Ty (80:46)

Right.

Connor Howe (80:47)

You looked like your parents, you know, you didn't have the questions that I had growing up. You didn't have this experience. And it's the same goes with natural parents too. You know, like, as an adopted person, it's very easy for me to have compassion for myself, but kind of only look at my issues and not the injustices that. That the other people in the constellation of adoption experience. And same with adopters, too. I mean, again, like, adopt people. I think there's some people that are really, like, you shouldn't have compassion for people who adopt at all. And I'm. I'm really one of those people where it's like, I want to have everyone on our side. If we want to get birth records, like, if we want to get birth record access, we need every, like, we need adopters to be like, I want my kid to have her. His papers or her papers. Right. We need natural parents to be like, yeah, the adoption agency didn't promise me anonymity 30 years ago. Like, you're saying they did, right? Or they did promise me anonymity, but I don't care because ultimately my kid's more important than my, you know, comfort or whatever. Like, everyone needs to care and everyone needs to be an ally to each other. And it's very disappointing to see so many adopted people going at each other's throats in general. And really, a lot of adopt people. Yeah. I mean, I don't want to be like, the whatever on my pedestal and judging everyone else, but I really wish there was more kind of attempts from within this whole community of people to try to make the system better rather than to, you know, indict someone like you or like me for pointing out that, like, this system shouldn't make these promises if these promises aren't enforceable. Right. It's not to say, like, anyone involved in adoption can have regrets about any part of being adopted or relinquishing a child for adopting for adoption or adopting a child if that regret is related to a tangible promise or guarantee that was made that was broken. If I buy a burrito and the burrito and I asked for no sour cream and there's sour cream, my burrito. I'm going to have a complaint about it. You shouldn't tell me, oh, well, you know, you got a burrito. Just be happy and eat your burrito.

Ty (82:36)

It's still warranted.

Connor Howe (82:37)

I asked for or, hey, some ad that I see. It's like, we have the best, you know, tacos in town. I eat the taco and it sucks. Well, you told me it was gonna be those tacos. I'm gonna not be mad about it. You made that promise to me. Right. It doesn't like, if we're gonna make these guarantees of these promises or whatever. I mean, I have issues with promises and guarantees being made. In general, why are we. Why. Why in adoption are we saying what your future is gonna look like? When. If my kids are going to be born in a few months, I'm not going to have a doctor telling me this is where your kids gonna look like? Well, you know why?

Kate (83:09)

Because it all comes back to. It all circles back to greed and wanting to do some, you know, sell it, basically.

Connor Howe (83:17)

Yeah. Why? Who else who's going to be comfortable with this transaction if they don't have some sense of like, oh, my kid's going to be okay, my kid's going to be happy, and I'm going to.

Kate (83:26)

See my kids because if they told me the real struggles and the real truth, I would have probably made a difference. Different decision.

Connor Howe (83:31)

Yeah.

Kate (83:31)

You know what I mean? So.

Ty (83:32)

Well, I think me can always talk about if we would have been. If we would have even.

Kate (83:35)

We would have been fully educated.

Ty (83:36)

I've been fully educated about.

Connor Howe (83:39)

And that has nothing to do with anyone except us.

Kate (83:42)

Right.

Ty (83:43)

Yeah.

Connor Howe (83:43)

If we are wronged by a system we don't like. Like, we don't like that the system wronged us. It doesn't have to do with my parents.

Kate (83:50)

No.

Connor Howe (83:50)

No. Nothing else.

Kate (83:51)

Right.

Connor Howe (83:52)

It's just the system shouldn't make promises if they can't keep those promises.

Kate (83:56)

Yeah, I agree.

Ty (83:57)

It affects everybody.

Connor Howe (83:59)

Yeah, of course.

Ty (84:00)

A whole.

Connor Howe (84:00)

It affects your kids.

Ty (84:02)

Your kids, kids. I mean, the whole unit.

Connor Howe (84:05)

Yeah. Oh, my God. I have to say this because I'm on your podcast. My biggest pet peeve with the people that talk about you guys in the show and all that stuff is when people are like, well, Carly or no, they'll be like, well, Caitlin, Tyler are trying to indoctrinate their children into seeing Carly as their sister. I'm like, no, they've been.

Kate (84:24)

They are littleer than her. And you know what's crazy to me is, like, they are littler and way younger than Carly is, and they've grown up knowing her and seeing her and you know what I mean? So for them, it's natural. It's like, I'm not trying to indoctrinate them.

Connor Howe (84:35)

I had both experiences.

Ty (84:37)

I don't need to Indochinate them.

Connor Howe (84:38)

I had a sister who. I have a sister who's like three years younger than me, and we really didn't really grow up together. Like, I. Like, I saw her maybe once or twice before high school. Before she was in high school. Yeah. And she. I mean, I don't. Like, she was my sister. We weren't really brother sister, and now we're older and it's like, she's still my sister. I love her to death. But it's not. We're not as close as my younger siblings who were a part of my life. And it was like, this is your brother. Let's, you know, facilitate this relationship. And I. Even my. I have all three. Right. My oldest sister was like, we kind of weren't siblings growing up. I have my middle two siblings who are twins, and they. I saw them when they were really young. Like, I have a picture of me, and they're like, not necessarily babies, but they're like toddlers maybe. And they don't really. I don't think they had conscious memory of that. And then around the time I think they were eight, if I remember right, my mom is like, let's go to the zoo. We're, like, going to Laser Tie. They were in town. We were just like, all spending, like a weekend together. And my mom or someone. I think my mom told me that, like, my younger brother was like, I always knew I had a brother. I always wanted to have a brother or something like that. Like, he was 8. And then, like, then all of a sudden, now I'm his brother. And so I had that experience too, of like, kind of brothers, kind of not brothers, or it gets introduced kind of early, but not super early. And then I have my youngest sister, who I really started getting to know when she was like three. And we're like, I love her. Like, she is my ride or die. I mean, all my siblings are. But, like, my. My youngest sister and I are like, she. Yeah, like, I love.

Ty (86:02)

And I think you had the freedom to. And it's that relationship from an early age, though.

Connor Howe (86:06)

The fact that people will say that, it's like indoctrinating family to. What is. What is so bad about having more people in your life who love you? Like, that's what I say.

Kate (86:16)

What is the problem with that? I don't understand that.

Ty (86:18)

Also, I don't get it. Indoctrinate my children. I'm honest with my children, and they know that.

Connor Howe (86:22)

They have a honesty. That's a huge thing. Going back to the option thing, like, it drives me crazy that there are adoption. I saw an influencer post something the other day that she was like. And look, I'm not a fan of hers, but I will say, you know, she says birth mom. I'm not. I'm just like, what's wrong with calling your mom your mom? You know? But. But. But she was saying that when I was going through these adoption consultants, they Were saying, oh, someone was asking her, what do you, what does he call you? And she's, she's. Or what does he call his. His birth mom. And well, he's going to call her birth mom. He's. He's like a baby right now. And she was like, the adoption agency said he call her birth mom. He could call her her tummy mommy, which is gross. And then he said he called her her aunt. And I'm like, no, wait, wait. So we have people facilitating adoptions. And for so long it was like open adoption is to the people that were anti open adoption. There were a lot of people anti open adoption, like the 70s and even to this day, yeah, there were a lot of people that were like, it's too confusing for the child. Like, we should just, let's call it.

Kate (87:19)

Let's just use them more.

Connor Howe (87:20)

How is that, how is the answer to confuse? Yeah, let's just make up a different relationship.

Ty (87:24)

They don't exist at all.

Connor Howe (87:25)

And people will say, oh, well, well, there's like auntie. They're not saying call her like auntie, like everyone's auntie. No, they're saying call this specific person your aunt, like, because it's less than mom. That's the whole thing. It's. It's serving not anyone except the consumers. And I'm not saying that that comes. I think in many cases it comes at the expense of adopted people. But really the question is why? Why does the adoption agency only really serve one party? Why does it not serve all three? Why does the. Why, like, why did you guys not have a lawyer? You had a guardian. I lied them or whatever. But that's not for, like, that's not a lawyer. And it's paid for by. And it's paid for by the people who are. Who are. In most cases, I don't know what your circumstance, but in most cases, if there is a lawyer or a gal involved, it's paid for by the hopeful adopters. So you're putting a position, this lawyer or whoever in a position where they're being paid for the people who want this transaction to happen. It's a huge conflict of interest. Like, or you don't. Or you don't have one at all, which is also like, I mean, you deserve legal representation. So how do you get an independent lawyer to represent someone who can't pay for that lawyer without paying, without having this other party pay for and create this conflict of interest? It's kind of an unsolvable problem in adoption. And no one's ever really addressed it. But yeah, that's the thing. This whole system is really not like it is an adoption. Numbers have been plummeting for years and years and years ever since the 70s. It's, it's going to go away probably even in the US who this country desperately doesn't want to go away. It's just not. The more and more people realize it's not the. You can't, you can't. The promises of open adoption are a lot easier to make when there aren't tangible result like people like you and me and whoever saying, well, it wasn't like, not even that it's bad, but just it's not. You can't trust empty promises like that. Right. Like people were already completely disinterested in it like largely speaking, you know, for many, many years. And it's. Yeah, it's the, the restricting abortion rights even will not increase the number of adoptable infants. It will not. Maybe the number will go up because there are so many, so many more babies being born, but it doesn't. The, the, the issue with the whole adoption versus abortion thing is the people who are choosing to choosing. In many cases people aren't making that choice or they're being coerced and don't realize it or they're being coerced and realize it. But like the people that are relinquishing their children for adoption, adoption is never their number one choice. No one's, no one's number one choice is ever. Adoption. Adoption is a choice for choiceless people. And, and really like, I mean for everyone adoption. The reason people are so threatened by us talking about adoption is because it's everyone's emergency fail safe. Like it's there when the plane lands, it's. Or when the plane is crashing, it's your emergency life raft to jump onto. Like, I can't have a kid. But adoption is always there in the back of my mind if like I can't have a kid. And you're trying to take that away from me by saying that adoption is not great or whatever. And it's like, I mean, look, it's not about you, right? Why is that about. Why is it about the people that are not like that are adopting and not the people that are like the families that are like this is. This process is designed to help because adoption is supposed to help the family.

Ty (90:27)

And my whole thing is that as long as adoption serve, it runs and operates as a service for adults to become parents. I don't think it's ever going to.

Connor Howe (90:36)

It's not a fan. Yeah, it's not. It was never supposed to be a family building service. In fact, in the, in the early, like in the early history of adoption, like 1920s, again, only 100 years ago. That's a long time, but it's also.

Ty (90:47)

Not a long time. Yeah.

Connor Howe (90:49)

Health professionals were really the guiding experts in adoption and children were not being separated from their mothers for like three to six months because they were like, you need to breastfeed your kid. You need to do this. And also more Trump the government. The government was like, we want you to, to. We're hoping that this incentivizes families to raise their children like, right. We want to make sure this child has the, the post birth, like support from their mother. Like the, the breastfeeding was really important. Obviously I don't think formula was really around yet. But also like, yeah, they wanted the bond, like they wanted that the child. We don't. In the same way you've probably heard this before, like, we don't separate puppies from their, from their, their parents for, you know, several months or whatever.

Ty (91:29)

Yeah, weeks.

Connor Howe (91:29)

Weeks or months. Kittens the same. Like, we don't do that with animals, but we do it with infants. And it's the whole idea. Adoption was guided by health professionals who are like, yeah, we should keep these children with their mothers. And then look, if, if things have to happen, they will happen. But ultimately it's guided by health and it's guided by a deep, deep desire to keep families together really until like the 1920s, 1940s, I would say that's when things started to change.

Kate (91:52)

Well, I feel like that's where it needs to get back to, but. Yeah, well, I feel like we could talk about this forever and ever and ever. No, it's very interesting to me. No, I love it. I think it's very interesting.

Ty (92:05)

We get an adoptee who's had an open adoption experience. Like.

Connor Howe (92:09)

Yeah.

Ty (92:09)

So that's why we were so like wanting this to happen.

Kate (92:11)

Yeah. And I just want to say thank you for coming on and being vulnerable and willing to talk about, you know, and gosh, I feel like I've learned a lot from you and I feel like other people can do and I think it's an important conversation to keep having. And so for people that don't know where to find you, where can people find you?

Connor Howe (92:28)

My I'm adopted Connor. I think like adopted underscore Connor on most social media. Yeah, I post like 3 minute videos usually ish on like Facebook, TikTok, Instagram. I'm working on YouTube too. I'm trying to start making some, some longer form videos on YouTube. So if you're, if you're interested in like the. Again, this might not be for everyone. Not everyone's interested in the deep dive on adoption, but if you're interested in the history and all this stuff, you know, YouTube. Adopted. Adopted. Connor. I post all my short, like all my short form content there too. But that's where I'm really going to start, um, posting hopefully some more long form videos, including a video about, I'm pretty sure about you guys and Carly and just my thoughts on that. Um, I already have all the clips and stuff, so.

Kate (93:06)

Oh, cool.

Connor Howe (93:07)

Yeah, I, which no one. I'm not on the payroll, guys.

Kate (93:10)

Okay.

Connor Howe (93:15)

No, it's, I just am interested in this stuff. You know, people have always been asking me to talk about you guys, so I'm, I'm glad. And I want to say too, like, I'm really appreciative you guys are, are drawing attention to this and really like, like to put yourself in the crosshairs the way that you guys do. Like, I mean, obviously I'm sure people have their own personal reasons for not liking you guys outside of the whole adoption stuff, which, whatever, we're all human, right? But the fact that you guys are willing to have these conversations knowing that this could jeopardize things potentially with people or that this could make you guys, you know, targets of online hate and stuff, like, I know what that's like and it, like, it really means a lot to me and a lot of people. I mean, again, I'm sure there's people that does me a lot to. It really means a lot to me and a lot of people that you guys are having these conversations and being vulnerable because yeah, I really care about this. I think all of us just want things to be better for people like me and people like you. And for you guys to do it with such like, such a huge platform that you have, it really means a lot because, yeah, people have been adopted. People have been trying to have these conversations for 50 years and it just has not resonated the way that it's starting to resonate, I think a lot of. Well, with very much thanks to you guys. So. Yeah. Yeah.

Kate (94:19)

Thanks Connor. Well, thank you.

Connor Howe (94:21)

Thank you.

Kate (94:22)

Well, thank you guys so much for listening. Don't forget to like rate and review and go give Connor a follow. He's very educational. Yeah. Does very good videos and we love.

Connor Howe (94:33)

It for some people. But yeah, if you're, if you can withstand it.

Kate (94:35)

Well, that's okay. Being triggered sometimes brings change. So we'll catch you guys next week. Thanks so much for. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for coming and we will talk to you guys next week. Bye.

Ty (94:51)

This October, fear is free on Pluto tv.

Connor Howe (94:55)

With horror movie collections from Paranormal Activity, the Ring. You will die in seven days.

Ty (95:01)

Scream.

Connor Howe (95:02)

And from dusk till dawn.

Ty (95:03)

This is my kind of place.

Connor Howe (95:05)

And don't miss the man made nightmares in Mary Shelley's father, Frankenstein, or the world ending chaos in 28 days later.

Ty (95:12)

Something in the blood, all the scares, all for free. Pluto TV stream now. Pay never. Hi, I'm Adam Rippon, and this is Intrusive Thoughts, the podcast where I finally say the stuff out loud that's been living rent free in my head for years. From dumb decisions to awkward moments I probably should have kept to myself.

Connor Howe (95:34)

Nothing's off limits.

Ty (95:36)

Yes, I'm talking about the time I lost my phone mid flight and still haven't truly emotionally recovered from that. There might be too many sound effects. I've been told to chill. Will I? Unclear.

Connor Howe (95:47)

But if you've ever laid awake at.

Ty (95:49)

Night cringing at something you said five years ago, congratulations, you found your people.

Connor Howe (95:53)

Intrusive Thoughts with Adam Rippon is available.

Ty (95:56)

Now wherever you get your podcast.