The Adoptee's Voice: Erin Calls for Reform of the Adoption System

Summary

Cate & Ty Break It Down: The Adoptee's Voice: Erin Calls for Reform of the Adoption System

Episode Release Date: April 23, 2025
Host/Author: PodcastOne
Guest: Erin (Adoptee Advocate)

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1. Introduction to the Conversation (00:09 - 00:36)

The episode opens with hosts Catelynn ("Kate") and Tyler ("Ty") welcoming their friend Aaron, an adoptee advocate, to discuss the intricacies of the adoption system. Aaron is affectionately referred to as "our adoptee mom," highlighting his supportive role in their lives.

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2. Erin's Personal Adoption Story (00:49 - 04:10)

Erin shares her deeply personal adoption journey:

• Early Adoption Details:
  “...I was adopted as an infant at five days old. My birth mother had two children before me...” ([01:56])

• Circumstances of Adoption:
  Erin explains that her birth mother’s OBGYN coerced her into an adoption, especially after discovering Erin was born addicted to speed. The OBGYN's husband rejected Erin due to her addiction, leading to her adoption by Erin’s adoptive parents.

• Serendipitous Survival:
  Her adoptive father narrowly avoided a terrorist attack, a twist Erin believes was orchestrated by fate, stating, “...he always tells me that I saved his life...” ([03:32])

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3. Critique of the Adoption System (04:10 - 14:56)

Erin delves into the systemic issues within the adoption framework:

• Coercion and Manipulation:
  “It was coercion. I mean…” ([05:00])
  She criticizes the predatory nature of OBGYNs and lawyers who prioritize financial gain over the well-being of birth mothers and children.

• Closed Adolescence and Betrayal:
  Erin recounts how her adoptive mother lied about the secrecy of her adoption, leading to feelings of betrayal when Erin discovered the truth at 18.

• The Fog Phenomenon:
  Erin introduces the concept of "the fog," a state where adoptees internalize feelings of abandonment and grief while being pressured to present adoption as a positive experience.
  “...fear, obligation, and guilt. And that's the... exactly what you're talking about...” ([10:30])

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4. The Impact of Adoption on Adoptees (14:56 - 33:03)

Erin discusses the long-term psychological effects of adoption:

• Emotional Detachment:
  “...I feel like I'm in a room full of people and like, I'll get along and I'll talk to everybody and like, I'll figure everybody out and like, whatever. But I never feel like I belong in the room...” ([16:05])

• Identity Struggles:
  Erin shares how adoption led to confusion about her heritage and identity, especially during childhood activities like "family tree day."

• Relationship Challenges:
  The pressure to manage others' feelings causes adoptees to prioritize adults' emotions over their own, leading to hyper-responsibility and detachment in personal relationships.

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5. Systemic Failures and the Need for Reform (33:06 - 51:00)

Erin passionately advocates for comprehensive changes to the adoption system:

• Financial Exploitation:
  “Why is there any money being exchanged for human life? Like, that just makes it unethical to begin with.” ([20:41])

• Comparison with International Systems:
  Erin praises Australia’s adoption approach, where adoption is a last resort supported by robust resources, contrasting it with the U.S. system that incentivizes adoption through tax credits and neglects birth mothers' needs.

• Education and Support:
  She emphasizes the necessity for adoptive parents to receive ongoing education about trauma and the needs of adoptees.
  “Adoptive parents have to be educated.” ([46:21])

• Conflict of Interest in Adoption Agencies:
  Erin points out the inherent conflicts in adoption agencies that profit from the process, making genuine reform challenging.

• Call to Action:
  Erin calls for a cultural shift where adoptees' voices are prioritized, advocating for trauma-informed therapies and support systems to prevent exploitation and ensure the well-being of adopted children.

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6. Personal Reflections and Future Directions (51:00 - End)

The conversation shifts to personal insights and future aspirations:

• Meeting Birth Family:
  Erin shares her emotional reunion with her half-siblings, emphasizing the importance of genetic mirroring and the deep connections that adoptees often crave.

• Legacy of Advocacy:
  Erin expresses her commitment to founding a nonprofit organization aimed at supporting birth mothers and ensuring adoptees have access to necessary resources and medical histories.

• Final Thoughts from Hosts and Erin:
  Kate and Ty commend Erin for her vulnerability and dedication to advocating for adoptees. They emphasize the importance of listening to adoptees to foster meaningful change in the adoption system.

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Notable Quotes

• Erin on Coercion in Adoption:
  “It was coercion. I mean, manipulation. Predatory.” ([05:01])

• Erin Defining The Fog:
  “That's the narrative that you choose to go with because it's easier to deal with...” ([09:14])

• Erin on Financial Exploitation:
  “Why is there any money being exchanged for human life? Like, that just makes it unethical to begin with.” ([20:41])

• Erin on Genetic Mirroring:
  “It was so obvious when I got with my birth family that I didn't have that growing up...” ([41:00])

• Erin's Call for Reform:
  “We're just trying to center adopted children. We're just trying to help children have a better life.” ([58:45])

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Conclusion

In this poignant episode, Erin sheds light on the often-overlooked struggles of adoptees, from coercive adoption practices to the enduring psychological impact of the adoption process. Through candid storytelling and critical analysis, she calls for a transformative overhaul of the adoption system to prioritize the rights and well-being of adoptees and birth mothers. Kate and Ty facilitate a compassionate and informative dialogue, making this episode a vital resource for anyone seeking to understand the deeper facets of adoption beyond the surface narratives.

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Note: To explore more stories and support adoption reform, follow Erin's advocacy efforts on TikTok under the handle @AdoptedAdvocateAaron.

Transcript

[Kate]

All right, guys, welcome back to Kate and Ty. Break it down today. We're super excited.

[Ty]

Aaron.

[Kate]

We have our friend Aaron. We actually have been friends on Tick Tock for a while now, and we talk to each other very regularly all the time.

[Ty]

I feel like we talk all the time.

[Kate]

And so we're just so excited to have you here.

[Aaron]

I'm so happy to be here, guys. I'm so happy to finally get to see you in person and be here in front of you.

[Ty]

We always joke around, like, Aaron's like, our adoptee mom.

[Kate]

That's what we call you.

[Aaron]

I know. And I'm like, I'm. I feel like you guys are like, my kids at this point. I, like, I just want to, like, help you guys and, like, you know what I mean? You're just such good people, and I always enjoy talking to you guys so much. So it's been. It's been really nice to get to know you guys.

[Kate]

Same.

[Ty]

Well, you're the first adoptee that we're interviewing, so, yes, we feel honored that you're the first one.

[Aaron]

I feel honored to be here. I really do. I'm just. I'm blown away by this whole thing and being able to talk. Talk about this at this platform. It's really. It's amazing.

[Ty]

Well, did you ever, like. Did you ever, like, expect talking about on Tick Tock to even do anything?

[Aaron]

No. And I honestly just started talking about it on TikTok to find the community. Like, I really didn't ever expect to become an advocate or for anybody to even, like, listen or care about what I had to say. I genuinely just did it for my own personal, you know, my own personal stuff. I just wanted to find other people that had a similar experience. I was really just coming out of the fog myself a few years back when I started getting on TikTok just a few years ago. Yeah, it really, really. I mean, honestly, my. My best friend was the one that really brought me out of the fog and started, like, giving me information and showing me things. And I. You know, when I got on TikTok, I was still a little bit in the fog, I feel like. And it's. It's watching videos from the TikTok community, from the adoptee community that really brought me out completely and allowed me to start advocating for other adoptees.

[Kate]

So if people don't know who you are, can you kind of tell a breakdown of, like, who you are, where you came from, a little bit of your story?

[Aaron]

Sure. My name is Erin, and I was adopted as an infant at five days old, my adoption story's a little bit crazy. My birth mother had two children before me, and when she got pregnant with me, her OBGYN basically was like, well, you already have two kids. You're not really taking great care of them. I really want a baby. Why don't you just let me adopt your baby? So she went through the entire pregnancy with the assumption that she was going to adopt, that I was going to be adopted out to the. The OB gyn, the doctor that was to deliver me. When I was born, I was born addicted to speed. And the OBGYN's husband was like, absolutely not. I do not want a baby that is drug addicted. They just foresaw problems happening in the future. So I was kind of just left in the wind. They were going through the same lawyer that my adoptive parents had adopted my brother through two and a half years before. So they basically just called the lawyer and they said, do you have any other adoptive parents that have, you know, gone through the process, have been approved, and are, you know, waiting for another child? He just pulled the file, called my dad, my adopted dad, and said, hey, we have this baby girl sitting here. Do you want her? My dad said, sure. And it's funny, he was actually supposed to give a speech overseas at a convention, and he didn't go because they were going to pick me up at the lawyer's office, and there was a terrorist attack and everybody that was in the row that he would have been sitting in was killed. So they say, you know, he always tells me that I saved his life by being born and by, like, just the way the circumstances happened, you know, it ended up saving his life.

[Kate]

So that's intense.

[Aaron]

Yeah, it's brilliant.

[Ty]

Wait, so the lawyer office, how does that work? So they. So you're born in the. The OB GYN's husband's like, no. And then where do you go from there?

[Aaron]

You go, I was in the NICU because I was born addicted to drugs. So I was in the NICU for a while. My records show that. And then they released me the secret. The lawyer secretary came and picked me up from the hospital.

[Kate]

And, like, how long were you with this lawyer secretary? Do you even know?

[Aaron]

I don't know. I guess just from the time they left the hospital and they brought me to the lawyer's office, and I have pictures of my adoptive mom, them handing me to her in the office.

[Ty]

So they signed off like, so. Because in order for a lawyer secretary to pick up a baby, that's, you know, totally relevant.

[Aaron]

To her.

[Ty]

They had to. Your mom had. Your biomar had assigned something, right?

[Aaron]

Yeah. I'm assuming she. According to her, I actually just met her last year and according to her, she gave birth and literally like within hours was like, I'm leaving. She said, I couldn't even be in the hospital with you because I was so upset that.

[Ty]

Wow.

[Aaron]

That I couldn't be there. She actually left. She went home and had to come back because she was bleeding. Like they. She almost bled to death when she went home. So she did end up back at the hospital, but I was already, you know, like had been taken away or wherever I was. But yeah, it was. That's crazy. I mean, the part about it that really upsets me, I think is the fact that the OB GYN was like, well, I want a baby.

[Ty]

I was just gonna say that.

[Aaron]

And you're a teen mom and you. You know what I mean? You are already not doing with the first two that you have. Let me just take your baby. And like, literally, like the entire time was like giving her care, giving her money.

[Ty]

That's so weird to me. That is.

[Aaron]

It was coercion. I mean.

[Ty]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Manipulation.

[Ty]

Predatory. I mean, for an OBJ and a professional to.

[Aaron]

And I think back then it was. It was pretty normal for. For OBGYNs to offer this stuff.

[Kate]

Wow. Because I would have been so turned off. I would have been like, I'm never seeing you again after I leave here. Like, that's creepy.

[Aaron]

But then there was my birth mom who was like living in a basement in her parents house with like no power, no heat, like two kids, like living on a floor. And she sees this doctor who's like, probably in the community and has money and has this husband and this great house and she's like, well, you're better. You know, this kid's probably better off with you anyway. So like, you know what I mean? You're offered, you're presented this situation like what are you supposed to do?

[Ty]

And obviously you were born addicted. So your mom obviously struggled. I mean, she was.

[Aaron]

She was struggling.

[Ty]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I mean, and this is a good, A good place to say that many things can be true in adoption. I can acknowledge the fact that I would not have been better off had I not been placed in an adoptive home. If I had been raised by my birth mother, I would have had a very hard life. I had eight siblings and they were all removed over time from my birth family into foster care, into foster care, group homes, such things. Except for the youngest who somehow was able to stay with My mom, she had kind of gotten it together enough that they never removed him. But I can acknowledge the fact that I would not have had an easy life in my birth family. Also, while saying that I didn't have the greatest life in my adopted family either. Like, two things can be true. Like, just because you go to a wealthier family that has given you more opportunity doesn't mean that you're still missing where you came from and people that, you know mirror you and that you can mirror and genetically.

[Kate]

And you. Your adoption was a closed adoption, correct?

[Aaron]

It was a closed adoption. And my mom actually. My adoptive mom actually lied to me. And my dad never really said anything. He just kind of stayed to the side. He was very passive human being. But my adoptive mom always told me that my. My files were sealed. I was not allowed to have any information until I was 18. That was the law, is what I was told. I never, like, knew any different to question it or to ask questions about it. I just assumed, oh, the law is that, you know, if you're a minor, you aren't allowed to have this information. I just. That was what I thought, right? She passed away not long after I turned 18. And it kind of just like, put everything to the side. I never. I just didn't really, like, at that point, it wasn't like, oh, I'm gonna go find my birth family. Like, I was kind of dealing with. With other things, so I just never really did anything with it until I got into my 30s, and I was like, you know what? I think I want to try to find my birth family. But they did. They. I mean, they. They lied. They definitely did.

[Kate]

And how did you find out about them lying and, like, it not being sealed and that you could have known?

[Aaron]

Well, I mean, my. My. My dad just handed me the file one day.

[Ty]

Oh, really?

[Aaron]

Holy shit. I was like, dad, I want to find my birth mom. You know what I mean? And he was like, oh, I have that file somewhere. It's like, okay. And he literally just handed it to me. And then I had the information. And I'm going through it and I'm looking at it, and I don't think I really processed it all because as I actually just found it again. Like, I don't know, whenever I. Whenever I posted all that stuff about it. It was a few months back, but I don't even think I realized when I first looked at it that, like, the literal receipt for my adoption was in there. Like, I could see all the costs, like, what everything costs. And, like, my Medical records from the hospital were in there. Like, all of my mom's identifying information was in there. I knew that she had given birth twice before me, that I had two siblings right off Rip.

[Ty]

I opened the file.

[Aaron]

You knew right off the bat, all that information was right there. So my. And so, like, then I think, like, okay, so my mom obviously saw that. So she knew all of these things about my birth mom. So all the times that she would tell me stories, like, oh, you know, maybe she just loved you so much that she wanted you to have a better life, or, like, oh, you know, all these stories and all these things that she would say, like, weren't true, and she knew that they weren't true because she had the information in front of her. You know what I mean? So there was definitely a feeling of betrayal once I found out all of these things.

[Ty]

Well, you said 18 years old is when. After she passed, and then you didn't do anything till 30. That mean that's a whole decade. So, like, what that whole decade were you just kind of like.

[Aaron]

I was very much in the fog, and I was very much of the opinion that, like, oh, my. My parents that raised me are my parents, and I don't need anything else, and I don't need to know where I came from, because it's not relevant. And, like, a lot of the things that people in the fog say, like, they really, truly don't think that it matters where they came from, because they had a good life, and they. Or they felt as though they had a good life, so they don't feel the need to find, you know.

[Ty]

Well, for people who don't know what is the fog.

[Aaron]

So for me, the way I explain it is, when you're a child and you're adopted, everybody constantly tells you, adoption is beautiful. You should be grateful. People saved you. People wanted you. They chose you. You know, adopted parents say things like, I grew you in my heart, or like, you were a gift from God or all. And it's always put in such a positive light. Adoption. And as an adoptee, you feel that abandonment, and you feel that loss, and you feel that grief. But as a kid, you're not really sure what those feelings are, and you're told, no, no, no, not that. It's beautiful. You should be grateful. Everything about it is beautiful. You were saved. Now look at this great life that you get to have. So that's the narrative that you choose to go with because it's easier to deal with, and it's much easier to internalize negative feelings about grief and loss and abandonment than it is to accept them and try to talk about them. Especially when a lot of adoptive parents are not willing to talk to you about them. A lot of adoptive parents don't want to talk about the negative feelings that you have towards your adoption. So you do internalize them. And then as you get older, that's what we call the fog. You end up regurgitating the narrative that adoption's beautiful. I was saved. Adoption saves people. People use adoption to build these beautiful families. And that's what you're telling everybody else. But internally you have this, like, struggle where you're like, I don't know, like.

[Ty]

Almost feel like you're not allowed to feel that way.

[Aaron]

Right. You're not allowed to feel that way because it's beautiful.

[Kate]

And that's what in which sad. Because I feel like as parents, I would want my child to come and speak to me and not worry about how I'm going to react about things that are going to hurt you. Like, if it hurts my feelings a little bit, I'm going to keep that to myself. But we're going to process this together and figure out how I can help you with whatever you're feeling like. Healthy parents do that for their children.

[Ty]

Yeah. Because a lot of people don't know what the fog is. And it's fear, obligation, and guilt. And that's the. So it's like those three things are exactly what you're talking about. Like your fear. I'm obligated to make sure my adoptive parents know that I'm, yay, I love this. And then the guilt for even feeling internalized feelings of I kinda don't feel right about certain things or whatever. And it's like, you almost every time I hear people explain it, it's like adoptees are almost like forced to put themselves in the. On the back burner. Like, you know what I mean? In order to make sure all the adults.

[Aaron]

Yeah, we're responsible for their feelings. Right. As an adoptee, you are 100% responsible for the adult's feelings around you.

[Ty]

I hate that. I hate that.

[Aaron]

But I mean, it just is what it is. It's why I'm hyper responsible now. It is. It's why I am. The way that I am, though, is because I always felt responsible for other people's feelings. I never wanted to say anything that was going to upset my. My adoptive mom. And she was super sensitive about things.

[Ty]

Oh, she was?

[Aaron]

Oh, yeah. Because anytime anybody would say things like, oh, you look like your mom, and I would say, oh, that's. I'm adopted. I can't look like my mom. You know, and she would go. She would launch into the, oh, I saved her from this and that and blah, blah, blah. And it was always like, this whole thing. But she couldn't stand it when I would correct people and say, no, I don't look like her. It's not like I couldn't possibly look like her. She's not biologically my mom.

[Ty]

You're speaking facts. You're not trying to me.

[Aaron]

It was to me, like, that was just common sense. It was just me being like, no, I really don't look like her. Like, that's a weird thing to say, right? And other people just being like, oh. And then, like, people kind of get, like, uncomfortable when you say that, you know?

[Kate]

Right.

[Aaron]

Then there's that. So then as a kid, you realize that you're making other people uncomfortable when you talk about your adoption, when you say, I don't look like my family, and you make them feel uncomfortable, and so you're all of a sudden responsible for everybody else's feelings. So you just talk about that positive, happy experience that you have with the doctor.

[Kate]

Well, and plus, that's all you're taught. Growing up from a young kid, that's all you're hearing. Like you said all around you, we saved you. It's beautiful. You have to look at this great life. So, of course, a kid that's heard that their whole life, they're going to grow up saying those exact same things.

[Aaron]

Yes.

[Ty]

I feel like the amount of pressure is so unfair. Like, that. That to literally be a kid didn't choose to be adopted. Now I have to also deal with my own identity stuff internally, not express that anybody. And also make sure I emotionally monitor all these adults in the situation.

[Aaron]

And that is literally crazy all the time. Like, you go to school, and they're like, you go to school, your teacher's like, all right, it's family tree day. And you're like, oh, well, which family do I choose? Like, and then the teacher's like, well, the family that's raising you, like, and they act like you're crazy for even questioning which family to use.

[Kate]

Right?

[Aaron]

And then you're like, well, what? And then you're like, well, I don't really know where my other family is from. And then you're sitting there and you're like, where is my other family from? What? You know, am I Irish? Am I Italian? Am I this? Am I that? What's their last name? And like, you're sitting there and like, I was always just so distracted when we were doing things like that, when it involved, like, any type of talking about any type of family that, like. Because my brain would just wander and, well, I have another family somewhere else. I don't know anything about them, but I know that they exist, you know, so there's just so much confusion as a child. And if you don't have a healthy outlet for that, you internalize it. And again, adoptees internalize so much, we're just expected to do so. And that's where the fog comes from.

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[Ty]

And I feel like it's almost like you said, it's, it's. It's easier for adoptees to stay in the fog because it's hard to, like, because once you open the door, you can't go backwards. You can't go back into the fog. Once you're out of it, it's a wrap. Like, so it's almost like they hold on to it in a way to keep them, like, safe. And so. Yeah, and I just feel like that.

[Aaron]

And they love to stop and tell us about and listen. Yeah, listen. I love when people have happy adoptions. I am the biggest when people have good, healthy, loving families that became educated and trauma informed and they're raising these adoptees correctly and, you know, they allow them in their bio families and they encourage them and they support them. I love hearing good, happy adoption stories. People always tell us, oh, you guys don't want to hear happy adoption stories. Yes, we do. We just don't necessarily believe them all the time.

[Ty]

Yeah, right, right.

[Aaron]

We don't necessarily believe what you're saying is accurate about your adoption because you're in the fog. Right. And then we're told all the time that we are being negative and that we're like, we're not, we're not allowing other adoptees to have their voice, but it's not. We're just basically saying, like, guys, maybe just look a little bit further into what happened to you and to like, why you stopped to tell the entire Internet that you don't have trauma. Because healthy, healed people aren't going to stop on a, on a video about adoption trauma and tell them, oh, I had a great adoption. I don't have trauma at all. They're just going to keep scrolling.

[Ty]

Right. But they get defensive.

[Aaron]

They get defensive because they, they know, they know deep down that they have abandonment and loss and grief and they have those internalized issues that they never dealt with.

[Ty]

And also, if they had an environment that nurtured the expression of those things, then of course they're so used to keeping it inside, which is just like, I just feel like learning the last couple of years about like, how adoptees just like that has to affect everything growing up, how I make relationships work.

[Kate]

With every, every aspect.

[Ty]

Because you're constantly emotionally, which in my opinion, it's like a version of like you're self betraying in order to keep everyone comfortable. Yeah. And that's always gonna backfire. That's. Oh, that's never gonna be good for you. So it's like. And to not even believe that you have the freedom to express it is crazy because I, We've gotten so much backlash. Like, and I don't know if these adoptees are in the fog or not. I'm not sure, but they are very aggressive. I try to be not aggressive.

[Aaron]

Anybody that's aggressive towards you for trying to speak the truth about adoption is just very unhealed. If they, if they aren't even receptive to listening, then it, then they're in the fog. I mean, it's not even wanting to understand something further that has affected your life in such a great way and is really just very prevalent in your life. That's where the fog comes from. The only way I can really explain it, and like you said, like, the only way that I can really explain being adopted is I feel like I'm in a room full of people and like, I'll get along and I'll talk to everybody and like, I'll figure everybody out and like, whatever. But I never feel like I, like, belong in the room. You know what I mean? Like, I always feel like I'm kind of like on the outside of everything looking in, and I Don't ever really make those connections with people. Like, like really strong, deep connections.

[Ty]

Almost like detached a little bit.

[Aaron]

I'm very detached because. And most adoptees that I talk to are very detached.

[Kate]

And you think that's because like you're subconsciously a fear of, like afraid of somebody leaving or.

[Aaron]

Yeah, there's always going to be that internalized fear of being. Abandonment. Yeah. Because the person that was supposed to love me most on earth literally just gave me to somebody else.

[Kate]

Right.

[Aaron]

Do you know what I mean? And that's when I don't know why people deny trauma from adoption.

[Kate]

Right.

[Ty]

I don't know either.

[Aaron]

Your life started with the person who is supposed to love you the most, giving you away to somebody else. They gave you away. That's grief, that's loss. To not understand why people would have a negative feeling about that. It doesn't make sense to me. Like, I just don't understand.

[Ty]

And you can also have a positive adoption experience and also be traumatized as a pre verbal trauma baby. Like that.

[Kate]

Or you could have like a positive adoption but also struggle with certain things and have feelings and emotions and that's okay too.

[Ty]

But what I'm hearing a lot from adoptees, they don't think that it's either black or white. You can't. You know what I mean? Two things can't be true at once. I mean, they're really happy with my adoption or I'm not. And it's like, what about, you know, you can still have the perfect doctor parents had the perfect, you know, being raised and raised in an environment that nurture everything and you can still have fear, obligation and guilt. And it's one of those things where it's like, like you said, like, why are you screaming at me? Mine was great.

[Aaron]

You're wrong.

[Ty]

It's like, well, dude, like. And my whole thing is that, like, why are. Why would you minimize their experience? You are in the same community, you're in the same minority group. So if I had a really good experience, you had a bad one. I want to kind of hush my. And let you. Because you had a bad one. And I think that's prioritized. Right?

[Aaron]

You should.

[Kate]

And asking questions.

[Ty]

Yeah, right. Like how.

[Aaron]

Why should we not talk about the bad ones just because somebody had a good one? Shouldn't it be the opposite? Should, Shouldn't I be. Shouldn't we be like quiet about the good ones until all of them are good?

[Ty]

Yep.

[Kate]

Tyler and I.

[Aaron]

Shouldn't we talk about the bad ones until they're all good? Because right now, adoptees are eight times more likely to be abused. Right now. It's a $25 billion industry. Like, you don't you want me to believe that there's not, like, weird, crazy things going on in a 25 billion dollar industry where people are literally buying children? Like, you know what I mean? Like, the fact that, like, people don't want you to talk about it is absolutely crazy to me.

[Ty]

It is crazy to me because they.

[Aaron]

Don'T even want to, like, acknowledge that maybe there's something else going on.

[Kate]

Well, no, and that's why it shows that it needs to be talked about more. And Tyler and I said just the few podcasts that we recorded yesterday was like, you know, until every single adoptee can say, I had a very open adoption, I felt very secure, I could express my feelings. You know, all of the adults were a safe place. Like, until every single adoptee can say that, then there needs to be changed because the remains broken. All of them. Yeah, it's still broken because.

[Aaron]

And then everyone's like, well, what do you want me to do? Just, like, throw the kids in an orphanage? And it's like, they say the craziest stuff. They're like, oh, we're just gonna. What, should we just, like, throw them in a river? I'm like, yeah, let's just throw them in the river. Like, let's just. Who does that? We're going to dispose of that. Like, no, like, we. People don't seem to understand that. Like, we're calling for reform of the system. Like, we're calling for reform. We want people to have be educated. We want people who are adopting children or putting people in their home for a safe environment to be educated on trauma and where they came from and the things that they're going to be experiencing.

[Kate]

Yes.

[Aaron]

So without being able to do that and then taking money out of the equation.

[Ty]

Right.

[Aaron]

Why, why is there any money being exchanged for human life? Like, that just makes it unethical to begin with.

[Ty]

Absolutely, it does.

[Kate]

Actually.

[Ty]

Just learned that, like, I had someone, an adoptee write me from Australia and said it is unheard of here. There adoption agencies are illegal in our country. And I was like, that makes me think, like, wow, Bethany would be illegal, Their operation would be illegal in this country.

[Aaron]

Because adoption in Australia is a very last resort. They, they, they support birth mothers, they support their. They support women within their society so that they don't have to give children up for adoption.

[Kate]

There's resources.

[Aaron]

There's resources. They give women resources so that they can Keep their children. It's literally a last resort. And they say in this country, there's studies that show that 97% of birth mothers want to keep their child. They say that $5,000 is the difference between being able to keep your child and feeling safe and secure and support it and needing feeling like you need to give your child to somebody else.

[Kate]

$5,000, when in turn they're paying $50,000.

[Ty]

To adopt a child and also getting a $16,000 tax credit for adopting. Like that's insane to me right there. The fact that you're giving a tax credit to adoptive parents who are already kind of ahead of the game with being middle class and they're wealthy and you're, but you're not going to help the poverty stricken birth mom who feels stuck like this. We're so backwards by, who are prioritizing in this whole little system. It's like, it's insane. And when I found out that it was illegal to have adoption agencies, and she wrote, she's like, because our country believes commodifying any children or any human life is wrong. And I'm like, holy.

[Aaron]

Australia's, Australia's adoption system is really, well, is really well run. We could learn a lot from, from their, from their social system and I.

[Ty]

Think in general, but I think people don't want to. When I, they get offended when I say industry.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Ty]

It's not industry.

[Aaron]

It's like, well, it is, it's worth $25 billion. When something's worth that much money, it is an industry.

[Ty]

Yeah. And people are gonna manipulate to protect that, that money interest. They're going to do lots of things to make sure that stays flowing.

[Aaron]

When I talk about adoption reform, I regularly say that you're not, you're probably not going to be able to get your hands in a $25 billion industry and make change on that side of it. You have to take away the supply. So you have to make the change on the side of where are the babies coming from for adoption. How do we help the people that are having these babies keep their children, that we don't need safe external care for other children.

[Ty]

We should be prioritizing family preservation and that money should be going to that stuff instead of tax credits. Tax credits for adoptive parents who are already wealthy enough to buy a baby. Okay, we're backwards.

[Aaron]

I couldn't.

[Ty]

Backwards.

[Aaron]

I couldn't agree more.

[Ty]

But you didn't go through an agency, right?

[Aaron]

No, my parents did. A private lawyer. That was pretty common in the, in the 70s.

[Ty]

Okay.

[Aaron]

Was was just private lawyers and there weren't a lot of adoption agencies at that point. You know, there was, you know, Georgia Tan was going through neighborhoods and finding low income people and saying, hey, you're pregnant. Let me just scoop your baby. And you know, here we're gonna make your life so much better and this baby's life so much better. Like literally walking the streets and taking advantage people. It's been predatory from the beginning. Yeah. And at the end of the day, it's just a really predatory industry.

[Kate]

It is.

[Aaron]

And I mean, you guys are prime examples of being coerced and manipulated and not having adult support and not having people in your lives that were like, able to like say, hey, we can support you if you keep your child. Like, this is what we can do for you to help you keep your own child. Like, you guys are prime examples. And it was very public how, how manipulation, coercion happens, especially with open adoption.

[Kate]

Right.

[Aaron]

I mean, open adoption is the number one coercion tactic that's used as far as.

[Ty]

And I think people look like it's a beautiful thing that we've, we've evolved from the old clothes stuff. We've actually gotten better.

[Aaron]

It's like, it's not because it's.

[Kate]

They, they created open adoption because there was a lack of infants being placed. And so they were like, we need a different idea. We need a different way to go about this.

[Ty]

We need a prettier bow to put on it. So people. Yeah, yeah.

[Aaron]

But then they didn't give any legal rights to the people who gave birth to the child, which just seems so backwards to me. Why wouldn't the people who gave birth to the child have legal rights to the child? In all reality, it should be, it should be enforceable on both sides. Because the power dynamic is what creates the coercion and the manipulation.

[Ty]

Yeah.

[Kate]

Yes.

[Aaron]

The power dynamic is really unhealthy and it's really unhealthy for the child.

[Ty]

And I also think the paperwork that's not legally enforceable. Then what else is the paperwork besides a coercive thing?

[Aaron]

I mean, that's all it is when you're sitting there signing paperwork, but you have somebody in your ear telling you you're in the driver's seat, it's going to look exactly how you want it to look. But legally you can't enforce that. Like, what are you supposed to expect? You're trusting that these adults are telling you the truth and you're trusting that these adults want what's best for the child, knowing that you guys, being in their life is the best. What's best for them, you know what I mean? Like, children who have their, their healthy biological parents in their lives are going to be more successful. They have those genetic mirrors. They know where they came from. They aren't questioning everything about their lives. They aren't having all of the negative sides of adoption that adopting and closed adoptions have. Like, it's just a healthier situation for them in general. But you get insecure adoptive parents, fearful, fearful.

[Ty]

They're, you know, not trauma informed, not, not, not healed.

[Aaron]

Not child centered. Yeah, they're not. If you're right off the bat saying that I want to adopt a child to build my family, you are not a child centered human being.

[Kate]

Right.

[Aaron]

You are not centering the child in adoption. You are centering your need to be a parent and to build your family. You shouldn't be adopting to build your family. You should be adopting to provide safe external care to a child that needs it. Because that's what it's centering the child. That's what it's designed for. It's not there to build your family.

[Ty]

Right.

[Aaron]

And it shouldn't be used.

[Ty]

And I think people get that very confused because they're like when they say, oh, so I'm not allowed, like, people who look will be negative and, and write me and stuff, and they're like, oh, so I'm not allowed to desire my own kid? And I said, I didn't say that.

[Aaron]

Nobody owes me their kids.

[Ty]

Yeah. I never told you you can't have a desire to have your own child. I'm saying you don't have to participate in a predatory corrupt system to do that. And you know, like it's, nobody owes you a child.

[Aaron]

And you know what I mean? You're building your family using someone else's crisis. That's not an ethical way to build your family. This woman over here is in crisis. She's not, you know what I mean? And then there's the people that you know that adopt the children and they're posting the babies online before the birth mother's even out of the hospital.

[Ty]

Oh, that one really?

[Aaron]

Adelaide White. You want to talk about Adelaide White?

[Ty]

Which one is that one? I don't know. There's a couple of that I've seen.

[Aaron]

My, like, she's the bane of my existence. She's a content creator on, on TikTok and she went through the whole IVF thing and then they ended up adopting a baby. And literally before they like left the hospital and they're on TikTok with the baby. The mother is the birth mother, still recovering in. Probably in the recovery room. And they're posting this baby on. On TikTok. And now it's just. Their whole entire platform is TikTok and. Or on TikTok is adoption. And you know, you know, this adopted baby and showing this adopted baby to the world and. But, like, the baby's literally, like, you're literally showing a child that's in, like the. In crisis. You know what I mean? Like, this child was just born, just removed from its mother. It's experiencing maternal separation, and here you are, like, exploiting it to the world.

[Kate]

And I was. I was gonna say, like. And I think that people just look at it like, oh, it's just a baby. And it's like, yeah, but you don't real. If you look at the studies, like, those babies are actually. They're suffering, right? That's why they can't. They're unconsolable. They're crying all the time, don't want to eat because they don't have the smell. They don't have the same heartbeat. Nothing. It's not normal or natural to them.

[Ty]

It's heartbreaking.

[Aaron]

It's a little stranger. You're giving it. Like, that's what people don't seem to understand. Like, when adopted parents want to be in the hospital, there's no benefit for the child, right? At all, whatsoever. You going into a different room with that child and putting that child on a complete stranger doesn't do anything for that child. It doesn't regulate that child's needs in any way, shape or form. It provides a warm, you know, chest for them to lay on.

[Ty]

But it, but it's not the mom smell.

[Aaron]

It's not. There's no chemical. There's no chemical bond. There's. There's no, you know, the mother smell. It's not the same thing. And it's predatory. If you. We were talking about Siobhan earlier. She's on TikTok first mom. Birth mom. And she's one of the most amazing human beings ever. But her story, the birth. The adoptive parents were in the delivery room. The adoptive father is holding her leg.

[Ty]

Oh, no.

[Aaron]

While the baby is exiting her body.

[Kate]

Didn't he even cut the umbilical cord.

[Aaron]

Or cut the umbilical cord? There's pictures of him holding her leg while she's. He's holding spread eagle on the table. The baby's coming out and he's holding her leg.

[Kate]

And she said from the beginning she didn't want them in the room.

[Aaron]

She didn't want them in the room. They insisted. Dude, that is like, that they're cosplaying birth.

[Kate]

Yeah, it's like some hand. It's like, literally, it's a handmade tail.

[Aaron]

Shit. It's handmade entails.

[Ty]

Yeah, that is so. I did not. That is. See that.

[Aaron]

But that's not uncommon.

[Kate]

Right.

[Aaron]

They want to be there because they can't have that experience for themselves, but they're taking it away from the person who's actually having the experience. And I can't even imagine how uncomfortable it is to have, like, dude, some random guys.

[Ty]

I saw a TikTok video of the adoptive parents in a hospital room, and the nurse brings in their baby, and the baby's uncontrollable crying, and they're trying to get a video. And you can tell the mom's like, what's going on? She's really upset. Like, I'm. You know, and it's like, in watching it, like, it literally got me emotional because I'm like, oh, my God.

[Kate]

That baby wants.

[Ty]

That baby wants its mom. And they. And the baby knows this is not my mom. And so when a baby is born with, you know, specific survival instincts, they're immediately going to be unconsolable because it's. It's. They know they're with strangers. And I thought, my head. I'm like, whoa. I never thought about, you know, the daughter. We really was like, what was she doing in. In the nursery? Like, she was there, thank God.

[Kate]

She was in the nursery for, like, 30 minutes. And I was like, she needs to come.

[Ty]

Yeah. We were like, yeah.

[Kate]

I held on to her for three days as much as I could. Yeah.

[Ty]

But watching that video, like. And you're right, the adoptive parents had some. One of their friends filming it because they thought it was going to be.

[Aaron]

This, like, moment where, like, we got our baby and the baby knew who I was and this and that. But the media has no idea who you are.

[Ty]

See, the mom actually look at the camera like, oh, stop record. This isn't good. And I'm like, this is so sad, because you're right. They're not thinking about the baby at all.

[Kate]

They're not. And they just think like, oh, it's a baby. It has no clue.

[Aaron]

And the issue. They're there because they're afraid that the. The birth mother is gonna change her mind.

[Kate]

Right.

[Aaron]

Because they're afraid the birth mother is gonna hold the baby and bond with the baby and not want to relinquish the baby. That's why they're there. That's why they're pushing. That's why they're like, hey, you've had enough time.

[Kate]

Give us a baby.

[Aaron]

Because they don't want you to change your mind, to get connected when you give. I mean, you, I mean, I have three children. I, I, when I, when you give birth, like, your whole body just, it's, you're just different after you give birth. Like, you're, you're rushed with hormones and you're rushed with all these feelings and emotions and everything else. And as a birth mother, like, you should have that opportunity to like, feel those feels and see your baby and bond with your baby and change your mind if you want to.

[Kate]

Absolutely. It's your right to do that.

[Aaron]

It's your right to do that. And if they're sitting there holding your leg.

[Ty]

Yeah, right.

[Aaron]

Like, what the, like how are you supposed to be. Feel comfortable changing your mind? And that's where, like happening.

[Kate]

That's where the coercion comes in. Because then as a birth mom, you'll think to yourself, well, I don't want to hurt their feelings. I've made all these promises to them and here they are in front of me, and if I change my mind, it's gonna break their heart.

[Aaron]

Like, I'm a huge.

[Kate]

So you know what? Actually, kudos to your sister. I know, because she, his sister was gonna choose adoption for our niece. And you know, she rolled in that room sobbing, but she looked right at him and said, I can't do it and I'm taking her home.

[Aaron]

Oh, I love that.

[Ty]

And the adoptive parents were so sweet. They were like, honey, it's okay.

[Aaron]

Everything's gonna reaction.

[Ty]

She's an adoptive mom or the, you know, she was gonna be adopted mom. She's like, you're gonna be a great mom. Yeah, I know it. And then they held the composure when they left. And then when I watched them walk out the hospital, I mean, she was just sobbing. So I'm not minimizing adoptive parents who, no, like, they have their own feelings and they, and they're allowed to grieve.

[Kate]

But I was just thinking that I'm like, damn, kudos to your sister. Because she was very emotional. She didn't want to do it because of the fear of hurting their feelings.

[Ty]

Well, she asked my mom to do it. My mom's like, honey, you have to tell them yourself.

[Aaron]

Well, let's talk about the fact that like, pre birth matching just didn't exist.

[Ty]

Yeah, you're absolutely Right.

[Aaron]

I mean, why do we.

[Kate]

I mean, you educated me on that. When you talk to me about that, I was like, oh, my gosh, that makes so much sense.

[Aaron]

Right? Because all of a sudden, if you, like, you, you match with somebody and they're going to be the parents and now they're having a baby shower and they're. They're making a nursery and they got the car seat and all their friends are excited and they're doing gender reveals. And how are you supposed to change your mind when you're literally watching this family have all these experiences expecting to get your baby and then you're like sitting there, you're like, well, I can't change my mind now because it would just completely. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, it really takes away from your ability to keep your own child.

[Kate]

Especially when I, I'm. Especially back then, too, I was such a people pleaser.

[Aaron]

Right?

[Kate]

Like I told, like I told you, like, I'd be calling them on the phone like once a week, like, yeah. Like, almost pep talking them.

[Ty]

Yeah.

[Kate]

Like, don't worry, I'm not gonna change my mind. Like, it's good. This is how it's gonna be. And so for sure I would have been. Even if I wanted to change my mind, it would have been super hard for me, I think.

[Ty]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Oh, 100. 100. But she knew, I think, like, they knew that that was the case and that's why they were rushing you to. You know what I mean? They wanted the baby in their hands, like, asap. They wanted to be out of the hospital. You know, the exchange was in the parking lot. Like, there was a lot of things about your situation that was, that was. But very common and very normal. Like, yeah, your situation is not abnormal. It's actually probably the most common story I hear with adoption, which is crazy.

[Ty]

Because it's, it's so common. But we're the. We just happen to be on tv, right? And people are app. Like, they're able to see it, but.

[Aaron]

You can see it. Like, you could see the rabid look in the eye and you can see, like, you can see it happening in real time. Like just that incessant need to get the hands on the baby before anybody changes their mind.

[Kate]

And I think it's super important that it was documented and documented, like, authentically, you know, because it's important for people to see it. It's important for people to see, and even adoptees to see that maybe they might think that their birth parent didn't love them or care about them. To see the struggles that we go through, to see how freaking hard it is sometimes. Like, all of that's important.

[Ty]

Well, I've had a lot of adoptees write me and say that because of you guys being on the show and just watching you, I. I, like, had my hate and my. My anger and hatred towards my birth mom. I thought I had just dissipated because I was able to see her through you guys and, like, really know that I wasn't just throwing the river.

[Aaron]

I think your story. I think your story is incredibly important for adoptees to see. I know. Personally, I wish that I had adopted parents, or I wish that I had birth parents like you. I do. I wish that my birth parents cared and were healthy human beings and wanted to be a part of my life and fought to be a part of my life. Like, I think a lot of adoptees see you and think, like, wow, maybe I have birth parents waiting for me that are like that, too. Or, like, maybe my. Like, because a lot of the closed adoptions, like, we really don't know what's waiting for us on the other side. So, like, I think that you give a lot of adoptees hope that maybe there are, like, good adoptive or good birth parents on the other side because there are so many, like, really negative reunion stories. Like, there's.

[Ty]

I know.

[Aaron]

I mean, there are a lot of really unhealthy birth families that just never really got it together and are not. It's just. It doesn't go well when there's a reunion.

[Kate]

And it goes back to. Because in the beginning, society, society failed them, honestly.

[Aaron]

Oh, 100. Like, my birth mother was. 100 failed. She was failed by everybody in her entire life. Like, she. She was. She had a really hard life starting as a child, and then just was never able to recover. So, like, I, you know, I give her some grace and I give her some. I. I give her understanding. Like, I totally understand. Like, I have no ill feelings towards her, but, like, I feel as though that's a lot of birth mothers have.

[Kate]

And that's so sad. That makes me want to, like, I'll be your birth mom. I will be anybody's birth mom. Like, that makes me really kind of emotional. Like, that's sad.

[Aaron]

I just. But I just think it's so important that you guys are speaking out, despite the negative things that people have to say to you. Because for adoptees, I think that you're giving adoptees hope that maybe there's somebody waiting for us out there that cares about us and loves us and wants to Be a part of our life. You know what I mean? Because it's scary because you don't know. And I know growing up, my mom would always say things to me like, oh, well, you know, maybe. Maybe they moved on with their life and had another family and you're just going to be, like, bothering them. That was. But in the same breath, she would say things like, it would be like, oh, well, maybe she was a drug addict and couldn't take care of you in this. Or. But then, like. Or in the same breath, it would be like, the other thing. Like, maybe she has this great life now and you're just going to be, like, disturbing her life.

[Kate]

And so, like, that's going to make you feel like shit as a kid.

[Aaron]

Exactly. 100%. And. But then I was always thinking, like, do I really want to, like, look for them? Because you know what I mean? Like, again, like, you don't want. I would feel awful if I, like, found my birth mother and she had all these kids and husband that didn't know about me and then, like, it, like, ruined her life. Right. You don't want to really.

[Kate]

And hopefully I don't ever give bad advice. But, I mean, there are adoptees that write me and they'll say, like, I just don't know if my, you know, if they love me or they care. My response is always like, I can tell you one thing right now, that no matter what is going on in your birth mom's life, that she loves you. Like, even with your birth mom, like, she might have not made good decisions in her life and, you know, messed up in certain ways, but I know as a birth mom, deep in your soul, like, you love your children, all your children, deeply.

[Aaron]

She definitely told me, like, I felt like a piece of me was missing my whole life. And like, she, you know, she did eventually, like, blame her drug problem on me not being there. It was a very odd situation. It was a very odd situation. But she. Yeah, but, like, it was more or less like, you know, a big. You weren't there. And, you know, my life was never the same and I never was able to get my act together because I felt like something was missing, was kind of.

[Kate]

And it's like, honey, I wouldn't have been able to save you. Like, that's your journey, too.

[Ty]

Well, that's also not fair either, because I think even that's a example of a birth parent playing on that fear, obligation, and guilt that you are just have to have.

[Aaron]

We get it from all angles. The adoptee really does get it from all angles. It's, it's in the triad. We are definitely the ones that I think take the brunt of the negative.

[Kate]

Negativity and that's why it all needs to change. I mean I'm hearing adoptees screaming from the rooftops of how things need to change and how things need to be different. And adoption very much plays as plays it as in oh well, it's all needs to be child center and they are the most important but as we are being shown, they aren't the most important and nobody is listening to them. Nobody's listening to about the changes that need to happen when in fact that's the only person and people we need to be listening to. Like it blows my mind.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Kate]

When was the last time you needed to go to the doctor but you pushed it off? I'm too busy. I don't need help or kids. Who's gonna watch the kids? I think we've all been there. Booking a doctor appointment can feel so daunting, but thanks to Zocdoc there's no reason to delay. They make it so easy to find and book a doctor who's right for you. With Zocdoc you've got options. ZocDoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. You can filter for doctors who take your insurance, are located nearby, are a good fit for any medical need you may have and are highly rated by Verif patients. Appointments made through Zocdoc also happen fast, typically within just 24 to 72 hours of booking. You can even score same day appointments. Stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to zocdoc.com kait and ty to find and instantly book a top rated doctor today. That's z o c-o c.com Kate and Thai Zocdoc.com Kate and Ty Were you raised always knowing you were adopted?

[Aaron]

Yeah, I never didn't know that I was adopted. My parents, they definitely always, it was always something that I was told. I don't ever remember being told that I was adopted. So I'm assuming that they read me books or like, you know, did like whatever age appropriate.

[Kate]

Just raised knowing it right.

[Aaron]

That was the only thing that I think they did right was, was telling me that I was adopted. There's plenty of adoptees out there that aren't told that they're adopted and either find out later in life or are told later in life. And I just can't even fathom the trauma of having a moment where you found that out, where you went from, like, not knowing to knowing. I think that one of the most important things adoptive parents can do is always make sure that their child knows that they're adopted. Do not ever say, well, I don't know, what's a good time for me to tell my kid that they're adopted? From the second they understand words.

[Kate]

You know, that's one of the things that Brian, Teresa have always done, too, with Carly. Like, they have always talked about it ever since she was little. They have always read her books. And, you know, people would come and talk and be like, oh, she's so beautiful. And she'd be like, oh, she's adopted. You know, and so it. And I feel like that's so healthy. Like, just raise them just knowing, right?

[Aaron]

Because what's the alternative? The alternative is that you don't know that you're adopted. You have no chance of getting an accurate medical history. You're literally going to the doctor of what, giving the medical history of, like, the family that you live with it. Right. Nothing to do with you. Like, that's dangerous. It is. It's dangerous to not know that you're. To not know who you're biologically related to.

[Kate]

And then. Or just like, the trauma of just one day being, like, you're 12 now, and so we have something to tell you, you know, or whatever age.

[Aaron]

I can't even imagine. Like, I was well aware that I didn't act like my family and that I didn't look like really. Yeah. Growing up, like, I always, like. And it became really obvious when I met my actual birth family and I. The way the mannerisms and the way that I we. Oh, my God, it was absolutely insane. Like, I instantly felt like I was with people that I belonged with.

[Ty]

So you grew up kind of knowing that you, like, mannerisms were different?

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah. Like, I just. Nothing was ever the same. We didn't really think the same way. We didn't talk the same way. We didn't have any mean. Like, when you see other people, like, you're like, oh, you look just like your mom. Oh, you just laugh just like your mom. Oh, you. Like, I always notice when families look like each other. Like, I'm really. I love seeing genetics and I love, like. Like seeing families that look alike and talking about that kind of stuff. So, like, I always, as a kid, would notice, like, oh, look at those two girls. Like, those two people over there, they're laughing alike. Or like, you know what I mean? And I would be like, oh, I don't laugh. Like anybody in my family, like, hypersensitive, sensitive.

[Kate]

Right to it.

[Aaron]

Right. So, like, I feel like. I don't know, just like, I can't imagine growing up not knowing that you're adopted and not understanding why you don't match anybody around you. Like.

[Ty]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Really confusing.

[Ty]

Did you. When you were growing up, though, did you have, like. Did religion play any part?

[Aaron]

Oh, yeah.

[Ty]

Okay. So I was gonna ask, because I wanted to know. It seems all the message that I'm receiving, it seems very, like, very common.

[Aaron]

Yeah. I mean, we were at church every Sunday. I mean, my parents were religious. Like, we were just Presbyterian, which is, like, one of the. Like, you know, it's. It's a very open religion. We were very LGBT friendly, and it's a very open religion. It's more of a community than it is a religion. But they were. We were definitely in church every Sunday. And part of that community.

[Ty]

Do you think that played a part in any of the, like, guilt or any of the. Like, what does that. Did that play any part?

[Aaron]

I mean, it definitely, like, when I would hear, like, you're like, God's gift, like, that kind of thing always really bothered me, and I could never really understand why. And now, as an adult, I understand, like, now. Now that I'm a part of the community, and I understand, like, so wait, if, like, wait, what about the kids that went into, like, abusive adoptive homes? Is that God's will as well? Like, did God will them to have horrible lives? Like, what? Like, would.

[Ty]

Like.

[Aaron]

Like, I don't understand. Like, so. Yeah, like, I guess religion, like, definitely, like, when people make it a part of it, that's what you question things because you're like, there's other adoptees that are, like, in really bad situations. Was that God's intention for them to have, like, horrible families? Like, how do you justify that if I was God's gift to you?

[Ty]

Right.

[Aaron]

They were God's gift to that family. Like, how do you justify the fact that they had a horrible life?

[Ty]

So you're saying that when people would say, like, God's gift, you're about God's gift. Like, that kind of makes it. It. It's confusing because at the same time, it's like, so in order for God's gift to be you, I had to punish or make a birth mom miserable and sad, you know?

[Aaron]

Right. Like, was it God's intention to, like, punish the birth mom who now has this empty hole in her in her life. It's yeah, like bringing religion into the adoption, into the adoption story is just a very.

[Ty]

I just didn't know how prevalent it was until all I think is prevalent.

[Aaron]

In a lot of other religions. Like I know Mormons really push adoption. I know that it's like really big in a lot of the purity religions as you guys know that like people who can't have children, like having a family is like, that's what they base their whole entire existence on is like the ability to have a family in those religions.

[Ty]

Which I wonder if that plays into the adoptive parents. Like, like kind of like subconsciously prioritizing their own need to be a parent because yeah, like that's why the infertility.

[Aaron]

Trauma like with, with like people in like the Mormon community, like they, when they suffer from infertility, like having a family and is like the ultimate goal.

[Kate]

And like, and having as many kids.

[Aaron]

Right, that's like, that's like what they're encouraged to do. So like there's a lot of shame that comes with not being able to, to provide that. So I think that like adoption is heavily pushed in religion communities because they have to have those families or else they're not relevant in the community.

[Ty]

Yeah, see that's kind of like that. And that's also where I feel like that should not play a part at all. We need to keep that out of the whole equation because it makes it murky and it's just messy.

[Aaron]

I feel like, I mean like there's really just. The only reason that anybody should be placed in for adoption is because they need safe external care. Like we shouldn't be building our families using other people's children. It just doesn't happen. Like it's just not.

[Ty]

Well that's also my next point is like how do, what are the other options besides adoption? I hear all the time and I.

[Kate]

Like, yeah, what do you think?

[Ty]

What are the other.

[Kate]

Or an ethical adoption? Is there any ethical adoption?

[Aaron]

Or I mean in an ideal world, a fully open adoption that is legally enforceable on both sides almost a co parenting situation is what's best for the child if it's available and the parents are healthy people and, and the adoptive parents are healthy people and they're able to provide that healthy relationship for the child. Like that's an ideal situation for me because everybody gets to be involved and everybody's there for the child. The child has their genetic mirrors. They have everything that they need and they're being raised with, surrounded by all the love that they need. But Again, that's an ideal situation. There's really no ethical way to do adoption and I don't have a solution. People ask me all the time. Reform needs to happen. First and foremost, adoptive parents have to be educated.

[Ty]

Yes.

[Aaron]

There has to be, number one going.

[Kate]

Education ongoing is like point. I say it all the time.

[Aaron]

Adoption agencies tell you, oh, we do all this follow up and post adoption care. And they don't. That could mean like giving them a Christmas card right here. It doesn't necessarily mean there's continued education or they're following up to make sure the adoptee is.

[Kate]

It should be like a legal thing. Every few years you're taking classes again.

[Aaron]

Right. Because at the end of the day they're doing home studies. Guess who's performing the home studies. Right. The adoption agency people you're paying. So of course you're going to pass the home study.

[Ty]

Right.

[Aaron]

You're paying them $60,000 to pass the home study.

[Ty]

And that's part of where reform needs to happen. That shouldn't be a conflict. That's a conflict of interest.

[Aaron]

Conflict of interest.

[Ty]

And it shouldn't even be a thing.

[Aaron]

There's no separation there that keeps the adoptee safe. There's no, there's nothing that's keeping the adoptee safe in any way, shape or form. They're saying, hey, we're going to come into your home, we're going to check it. And they just. It does. There's nothing there. It's. First of all, the standards for home studies are kind of.

[Ty]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

To begin with, like if you're, if you don't have like something locked in your basement, like you're probably going to pass a home study.

[Ty]

Right, Right.

[Aaron]

You know what I mean? Like, if you're financially stable, which all these people are and you know, all these things. But passing a home study is a joke. So people are like, oh, but people, people will hold that. Like that's like the, the highest standard of like care. Like, oh, if you could pass a home study, you're like the best human being ever.

[Ty]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Which just isn't the case. It's not the case. I know plenty of people that pass home studies that were horrible human beings and have no business around children. So like right now we're already at a place where there's no separation of power. There's no, there's a huge conflicts of interest between adoption, the adoption agencies, the adoptive parents and the safety of the adoptee. And, and I really think that like reforming that is a good place to start.

[Ty]

Yeah. I Agree.

[Aaron]

Like figuring out, like, how we keep adoptees safe after they've been adopted. Whether it, like there's some sort of check system to make sure that, like, ongoing.

[Ty]

Continuously. Right.

[Aaron]

Yeah, but the. But at the end of the day, the adopted parents need to be educated. And yeah, they think that they're just getting this blank slate that they're going to be able to raise however they want. That's why they want the infants and not. That's why they're not adopting from foster care. They don't want to have. They want the blank slate, but they're not getting a blank slate. They're getting a child that's coming with maternal separation trauma.

[Ty]

And I think they honestly believe that they're getting a blank slate, which I don't know where that came from. But I, but like I said, people.

[Kate]

Look at it as in it's a baby, it doesn't know anything.

[Aaron]

It doesn't know anything.

[Ty]

That's insane because, like, when you think about it like that, you're just choosing ignorant at that point.

[Aaron]

Right.

[Ty]

And I also feel like if you know you're gonna be an adoptive parent, you need to know those things. So that way you can do.

[Aaron]

You're doing a disservice to your child. The only person you're doing a disservice to by not educating yourself on adoption and adoption trauma is the child. Because you're just going in completely unprepared to parent a child that is probably going to have issues. I mean, their neurodivergence is huge. Most of us have some sort of adhd, autism, some sort of neurodivergence, huge in the adoption community. And a lot of it's because, I mean, a lot of it's because we were, you know, a lot of us were born addicted to drugs. But whatever, whatever the situation is, there's a lot of. A lot of that within the community. There's a lot of drug addiction. There's a lot of just people. Mental health issues. And again, it's. A lot of it is caused by internalizing all the negative feelings that you had about your adoption and not being able to talk about it growing up. So you end up with all kinds of mental health issues.

[Ty]

I feel like people constantly say, like, what do you want us to do? And I'm like, my first thing is, well, how about, like I said about Australia earlier, like, let's take a playbook out of their process. I mean, like, why. Why aren't we doing that? Why aren't we, like, looking at other.

[Aaron]

Places where it works.

[Ty]

And honestly, when they ask about ethics, it's like, well, anything that has to do with commodifying children is not ethical. I don't care what you build on top of it or what positive experience you had. Selling children is not ethical.

[Aaron]

How is it ethical to go to an adoption agency and sit there and fill out a literal form? Yes, I'm okay with the baby being addicted to crack, heroin. But not. But not that. You know what I mean? Like, you're literally. It's literally like, build a bear.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like, you're literally telling you're commodifying a child and that. And it's so prevalent when it's so easy to see when you're looking at the process to adopt that it's. It's. It's just crazy.

[Kate]

And so I think the problem, like, the problem with our culture is that, you know, the positive side of adoption has always been talked about. It's just, like, beautiful and rainbows and so amazing. And now that people are starting to speak about the hard stuff and what adoptees go through and the struggles that they have, like, nobody wants to listen to it. And so it's like, well, we need to talk about it more. So that way it can change. Because the only way that it's gonna change is if we change the culture in the United States and the thinking on adoption.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Change the narrative. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ty]

I mean, and the only way to do that is let adoptees speak.

[Aaron]

Right.

[Ty]

And the ones that have positive experiences. That's great. We're all happy. We're all really great. I mean, that's. That's awesome. It just.

[Kate]

Listen to all the other ones.

[Ty]

It doesn't negate the negative ones.

[Aaron]

And the ones that have the positive experiences, a lot of times don't even realize that they didn't have a positive experience. Like I did. I would have told you again 10 years ago. I would have told you that I had the best family growing up. I had a great adoption. I was super pro adoption. I would, like, I watched. The only reason I watched Teen mom at all was because of your story. I've never seen. I. I will admit that, like, I've never seen any other teen mom other than, like.

[Ty]

Right.

[Aaron]

The season that you were on, because I was watching for the adoption story. But, like, I, like, would have, like, fist fought somebody that said that adoption was bad. You know what I mean? When my best friend was like, maybe you should, like, think about it this way. I was like, you're crazy. I had awesome Parents. Maybe you just had, like, really shitty parents and that sucks for you. But, like, my parents were great. And I was like. And I, like, literally went to town on my friend about. And like, the same thing that people say to me now, and they're like, happy adoptees. And. And I. It really took going to therapy and.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And. And really taking a deep dive into how I felt growing up and everything else to realize, like, what.

[Ty]

So in a way, when you see these at other adopt, he's kind of attacking the positive. You know, you're like, okay, I get you. I understand. I was there 10 years ago.

[Aaron]

That's what's so frustrating.

[Ty]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Is that, like, I was that person that was, like, really angry at people saying that adoption is negative because I couldn't in my brain comprehend how giving a child a better home was a negative thing.

[Ty]

Right.

[Aaron]

But now I see that you're not necessarily giving a child a better home, you're just giving them a different home.

[Kate]

Right.

[Aaron]

Adoption doesn't guarantee you a better life.

[Ty]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

It guarantees you a different life.

[Ty]

Yeah. And I think people get that very, very confused.

[Aaron]

Very confused.

[Ty]

Yeah. Because I've had a lot of people write me saying horrible stories. I mean, and I think it comes down to, like, you know, when these adoptive parents aren't trauma informed and they're kind of self, you know, centering themselves in the whole thing, the kid suffers and they're writing me messages, and it's clear that that bled into them being raised.

[Aaron]

And it's like the most common. I mean, hands down, I've been doing this for not a long, long time, but, like, long enough that heard thousands of adoption stories. The most common adoption story, hands down, 100%, is rich, infertile woman, does IVF or whatever, can't have her own child, doesn't get any help, adopts to fill a void, puts the adoption, puts her infertility trauma on the adoptee. And that. That's my story. And that's almost every adoptee I know has the same exact story.

[Ty]

Now, did your adoptive mom ever talk about her infertility with you growing up? Wow. Okay. Interesting.

[Aaron]

Never ever, ever never talked about it.

[Ty]

That's crazy.

[Aaron]

But I was definitely there. I was definitely there to fill the void. I was definitely there to, like, be the perfect child and. And, like, do all the things that, like, her child would have done. And when I didn't do the things that, like, her child would have done, it was very obvious that there was disappointment that I was not her child, that I was not her biological child, because her biological child would have never acted like I acted. You know what I mean? Like, it was always. There was always that underlying feeling. And she was so busy trying to portray herself as the perfect mom to society that she did everything for me but never did anything with me. She was my girl scout leader, she was my coach, she was the PTO president, she ran the church youth group. She every. But she was never home. She never played with me. She never did anything with me. She never spent time with me. She was just so busy showing society that she was this great mom because that was, you know what?

[Ty]

That's what she prioritized.

[Kate]

And so, like, I mean, I know your dad. Your dad recently passed.

[Aaron]

He did, yeah.

[Kate]

But I feel like when I hear you speak, I feel like your dad. See to me it comes off like you probably felt more comfortable with him in a sense.

[Aaron]

And again, this is another thing that I will. I'll die on this hill. The most common story that I hear is narcissistic adoptive mom, passive adoptive father. And that's what you hear all the time. And that's the dynamic is the mom is the ringleader. The mom is the one that wanted the adoption. The mom is the, you know, the one is just, that's it. And the passive dad. And that's what I had. I had a very strong willed mother and a dad that was kind of just like, he owned a travel agency and basically just like traveled all the time and was like, worked all the time. And he was a great man and a wonderful human being. And I love my dad very, very much. But like, definitely did not protect me from my adoptive mother. And I think that's the story that we hear most from adoptees is that they had a very narcissistic mom and a dad that didn't protect them. And that's the only real complaint that I hear from adoptees about adoptive fathers really is that they didn't protect them from the adoptive mother.

[Ty]

Yeah.

[Kate]

Because I do hold a little bit of resentment.

[Aaron]

I did resent my dad. Definitely. I did, actually, I did. I talked about it a lot in therapy that like, and again, my dad was my best friend. My dad definitely tried. There was never any malicious intent from my dad at all whatsoever. But I did definitely resent the fact that he did not do anything to protect me from my mom.

[Kate]

But I know you said in the recent years that you and him had a very good conversation. You talked about.

[Aaron]

We did, actually. It was like he, he just passed away in January. And it was probably in maybe November, we were just sitting there and I was kind of telling him a little bit about like the Tick Tock videos that I was making. And then I was talking about adoption on like a platform and stuff. And, and he, and I was like telling him a little bit about like adoption trauma and like just what we talk about. And he's like, oh, that makes sense. Like, he's like, I never really thought about it that way. And like, I think I, like, I don't think that he just ever really thought about it. And I think that that's the issue with most people. Most people just don't think that there is another side to it. They don't think about like, that anybody should feel anything but good about it because they don't. It's never been presented to them that way.

[Ty]

Right.

[Aaron]

So like, my dad just never saw it as anything but like a good thing. Like he, in his mind, they provided me with this great life. You know, I went to private school in college and got a good career and did all these things. And he attributed that to the fact that they were able to provide this life for me. He never really saw it as like abandonment and loss and grief for me. So for him to acknowledge that those things happened was like, really important for me.

[Ty]

Yeah, I bet that'd be, it was very validating.

[Aaron]

I never in a million years thought that I would hear him acknowledge that, that, that maybe they didn't make the best decisions or that, you know, he didn't, that he didn't protect me from my mom. And he, he did, he really did acknowledge those things and, and you know, let me know that. So that was huge.

[Ty]

But so if you had like a per, if you were to label it, like, okay, if I, if I could go back in time and, and in order to say I had the best adoption experience, like, what would what, as an adoptee? Like, what could adoptive parents, if they're actually listening, what could they, what is. What could they have done? What could they have done better?

[Kate]

Or what can adoptive parents do?

[Ty]

Yeah.

[Kate]

If they're thinking even about adopting, it's a hard one.

[Aaron]

Don't adopt.

[Ty]

Yeah, I know, but if they're, let's say they're already in the situation, what, as an adoptee, what could they do?

[Aaron]

I think it's really important to listen to adoptees.

[Ty]

Okay.

[Aaron]

I think it's incredibly important to listen to adoptees stories and I think that it's incredibly important to go to family therapists and to find trauma informed therapists. I think there's A very. There's a. There's a lack of. Of adoption informed therapists in this country. There's one in Pennsylvania that I can't find any. I Just one in Pennsylvania that I know of. And actually Brenda, the, The adoptive mom, Brenda, that's in Texas.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

She actually does virtual therapy sessions with the woman in Pennsylvania because it was like, the only one that we could find. And it's. So she, she always recommends people to go to her. But I think that it's really important that you find someone that is. That specializes in this type of family dynamic. And you go regularly so that you're, you know, your child always will know that they are able to talk about anything they want.

[Ty]

Right.

[Aaron]

However they feel. I think that really being educated and continuing your education is.

[Ty]

Is important and that might actually minimize the fog if they're constantly giving this opportunity to speak and express. Like, maybe that won't.

[Aaron]

Right. And you need to advocate for your child and you need to support them and you need to understand that like, like, you, like, finding their birth family. Like, things like, you need to, like, be ready to make these suggestions to them and to encourage them to do these things. Because a lot of adoptees are like, oh, I don't want to find my birth family because they're scared. They're scared that they're going to be rejected or they're, you know what I mean? Secondhand rejection is awful. My, like, being rejected by my birth mom again was just, was. Was a horrible, horrible feeling. But, like, so I think a lot of adoptees, like, are really stuck in, like, a point where, like, they don't want to even look. I think that it's really important for. For adoptive families to understand that and to be, like, educated on that and how to support them and how to, you know, really just talk to them about everything that has to do with it and have an open conversation.

[Kate]

And do you think, like, encouraging them to do so, like, hey, let you know, encouraging them to look and saying, like, if something happens, we're here to support you and we will talk about it or whatever.

[Aaron]

I think just encouraging them to feel whatever they want to feel or do whatever they want to do with regards to their own life and their own adoption is super important and it doesn't happen. It doesn't happen because of insecurities, like, in. In reality.

[Kate]

Like, so honestly, if you're an adoptive parent that has insecurities or you're even thinking about adopting, you probably shouldn't adopt, right?

[Aaron]

If you're thinking about adopting and the thought of that your child finding their biological family bothers you.

[Kate]

Don't adopt a child or, oh, them getting older and they're going to want nothing to do with me. Like, like, right.

[Aaron]

If, like, you're sitting there and you're thinking, like, oh, like, what if they want to search for their. Like, I'm so scared. Like, I mean, there was a, there was a, there was a very, a very prevalent conversation between, you know, your adoptive parents and you were. They basically said, our biggest fear is that she's going to want to have a relationship with you when she's older.

[Ty]

And you're saying that fear alone, that.

[Aaron]

Fear alone, you shouldn't, you should not adopt. I, which I agree that the child that you're going to raise will want to have a relationship with the person who gave birth to them, then you should not be in that child's life. You're not a safe person for them.

[Ty]

It's not, it's not child centered.

[Aaron]

It's not child centered.

[Ty]

Yeah. You're literally.

[Aaron]

They're going to come to you and be like, I want to have a relationship with my, with my parents. And you're going to be like, oh, my God, that was my biggest fear.

[Kate]

Like, right. No. And then they're going to not want to even talk about it.

[Aaron]

They're going to internalize it, and then they're never going to want to talk about it again. And that's the other thing. A lot of adoptive children will go to their adoptive parents and say, I would like to find my biological family. And they're met with, well, you know, and they're met with negativity and it's a very negative experience of what if it's a net and then. Or that fear is put in them by their adoptive parents and how stuck that.

[Ty]

What's the adoptee?

[Aaron]

That's what I mean. My, my adopted mom would regularly say things to me that made me afraid to look. Like, which I think was why, like, when she passed away, that I kind of just like, didn't even like, bother to look was. I was like, I was like, what if, like everything that she said was right? Like, I didn't, you know, what are.

[Ty]

The things that she would say again?

[Aaron]

Like, we're basically just saying, like, you know, what if they have moved on and they have a family and you're disturbing their family? Or like, or she would say things like, what if she's like a horrible drug addict and like, you find out like, awful things about it? Like, you know what I Mean, like, it was always, like, it was always fun in a negative way. Like, what if you find her and some horrible thing happens? It was never, like, what if you find her and she's this wonderful person and wants you in her life? It was always just negative and, like, don't do it, because something bad could happen.

[Kate]

And so, obviously, you most recently did find them and you. And you've met your other siblings.

[Aaron]

Some of them, yeah.

[Kate]

Some of them.

[Ty]

Oh, not all of them, No.

[Aaron]

I have. So there were eight of us. One passed away. My sister April passed away. Horrible circumstances. And then I have. So there was. Mary Jane was my first sister, and then my brother Michael. And there's just. They all were raised in, like, really chaotic, horrible, abusive environments.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So they're just. They're not healthy people.

[Ty]

Right.

[Aaron]

So the relationships aren't able to happen at this point.

[Kate]

Are any of them healthy?

[Aaron]

I do. My brother Harley, who's, again, is the youngest and was the only one that was actually kept in that situation. And I. I think because he was the youngest, was maybe spoiled a little bit, so kind of had more of a. An opportunity to, like, normalcy. Not. Not necessarily, like, the greatest, but, like, was a little enough normalcy that he was okay, that he's okay now. Okay. He's awesome. I love him, and I talk to him all the time. And he's got this awesome wife who I absolutely adore, and they're the ones that I actually got to meet when I went to meet my birth mom. So. But I hugged him, and for the first time in my life, I felt family.

[Kate]

Oh, wow.

[Aaron]

For the first time in my life, I was like, oh, my God, this feels like I know this person, like, in a different way than I've ever felt when I hug my. Even my adoptive family. Like, the bond and like, this. The feeling I had when I hugged him and my other brother Tony was just so different than anything I've ever felt in my.

[Ty]

Like, different because I think what people don't understand is that, like, as an adoptee, like, yeah, I have my adoptive parents, but then their parents are your grandparents. And, like, you. You know what I mean? Right. It's a whole branch of. And if you never felt a hug like that, that. I mean, that's got to be really intense.

[Kate]

It's like the souls know.

[Aaron]

My soul knew that that was my family.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

My body knew that that was my brother. Like, I felt everything from. I. Like, I almost felt, like, everything inside of him. Like, all his feelings and emotions seeping into my. It Was. I don't know how else to describe it. It was. It was a very surreal experience, but I've never felt anything like that in my life. And I can only assume it's because my body knew that that was my. My relative, that was my DNA.

[Ty]

Would you consider, like, you being reunited as a good experience? Bad? Like, what? Would you.

[Aaron]

It was an experience.

[Ty]

Okay.

[Kate]

But you know what? One person that I don't ever really hear you talk about is your birth father.

[Aaron]

He passed away. This. My story is absolutely. The birth family story is absolutely insane. So my birth mother, I think the reason that I was. I was the only one out of seven that was given up for adoption. And I think that it was because my birth mother wasn't quite sure who my birth father was. She was. She had the first two children with Michael, who is. Who did end up being my birth father. And then she. She left him and she was getting with Tony and who is the father of the other five. And I think she was cheating on Tony with Michael and didn't know who the father of the child was and then was like, pressured into giving, like, you know what I mean? The opportunity presented itself, the adoption, and she was like, well, I really don't know who the dad is, and I don't want to, like, you know, And I'm pretty sure that that's why I was given up for adoption. But when she went back to Tony, Tony paid somebody to hit my birth father with a car and he ended up in a coma for a while. He came out of the coma and then Tony paid somebody to run him off the road again, and he ended up passing away the second time.

[Kate]

Wow.

[Ty]

Okay. So what the hell?

[Aaron]

So I never got to meet my birth father. He passed away very young, and so I don't really know anything about him. I do have contact with my. With his family, though. So I. My. His. His brother's daughter, I talked to, like my first cousin and then a couple of my second cousins on that side. They all live like five minutes from me.

[Kate]

Have you ever seen pictures?

[Aaron]

Yeah, we go and hang out all the time. We hang out with them all the time.

[Kate]

Have you seen pictures of them or.

[Aaron]

I look like my birth father? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so. I mean, but I sound just like my birth mother. Our laugh and everything. When I heard her laugh, we were cracking up because we laugh exactly the same. My sister and I laugh exactly the same. We both like. We. When I. As soon as I started having conversations with them, that's when I realized, like, so much of growing up, like, I didn't resemble these people at all. I didn't have any of their mannerisms. I didn't have any of their, like, anything at all. And it was so obvious when I got with my birth family that I didn't have that growing up, which is.

[Ty]

The importance of genetic mirroring. It's really important for kids. And I had no idea what genetic mirroring was until diving into this whole.

[Aaron]

I mean, I was blown away by how much I resembled and acted and acted like these people. Like, just.

[Kate]

You weren't even raised with.

[Aaron]

Our mannerisms are so similar. It's crazy, right, that I've never even met, but we, like, even, like, seeing my sister on FaceTime, like, the facial expressions that we make are the same and, like, we're only half sisters, but, like, yeah, like, it's still. It's crazy. It's crazy. And, like, I see, like. Like, I think that, like, Nova and Carly look exactly the same. You know what I'm saying? Like, that genetic mirroring, like. Like, to me, like, that relationship's so important because, like, she can see herself and her sister. And, like, do you know what I mean? Like, those relationships are so unbelievably important for adoptees because, like, I don't know, you get to see yourself and other people, and people take that advantage. Take that for, you know, I mean, take advantage of that because that's what you're used to. Like, you guys don't know a time when you didn't see people that you. You know what I mean? So, like, I don't know. It's so obvious.

[Kate]

And it has to be harder. Like, one of my questions, too was, like, it has to be harder because being an adoptee, but now an older adoptee and knowing that you had siblings out there, like, it's almost harder to have to build these relationships from scratch when, in fact, if everything would have been open and honest, it would have just been normal, right?

[Aaron]

And I can't help but think, like. And I know that this is just me being me, but, like, I can't help but thinking, like, if I had known they existed growing up, like, what could I have done to make their lives better? And, like, maybe they wouldn't have had such hard lives or, like, they wouldn't have turned out the way that they did, or, like, like, I could have helped them. Or, like, and I know that that's just me being me. I'm a helper. And, like, that's just, like, my initial response to things. But, like, that's how I feel about it. I'm like, what if we grew. If I grew up knowing them, like, could I have called them and like, like, like, you know, could you have.

[Ty]

Been a resource maybe?

[Aaron]

Right. Like, they never had any guidance. Could I have, like, guided them down the right path or, like, you know what I mean? Like, who knows? If I could have been a positive influence on their life, you know what I mean? Like, they probably would have been a negative influence on mine. But, like, at the same time, like, I was. I've always been, you know, a very confident person and not very easily, you know, swayed or influenced. So I feel like I could have been a positive influence on their life. And I just. The fact that opportunity wasn't given to me. I will never forgive my parents for taking away the opportunity to have siblings. Growing up, I mean, I had an adoptive brother. We, you know, that relationship is what it was. Well, right.

[Kate]

And it's just not the same. Just having your.

[Aaron]

Yeah, there was no bond. I mean, again, you're putting your adopted fat. Like, you're literally putting strangers in a house together and. Right. Like, and then just expecting them to bond. And, like, sometimes strangers don't bond with each other. Like, you're not going to bond with everybody.

[Ty]

Right.

[Aaron]

So, like, I really just never felt that bond with. With my brother, with my. And again, I had an adopted mom that triangulated things and always pinned us against each other. And, like, that was. That was the dynamic, too. And I think that's a very common dynamic in adoptive homes, especially when there is an adoptive and a biological child.

[Ty]

I was just going to bring that up because I've had a really crazy stories lately of adoptees saying, like, I like you saying the first hug that you got from your, you know, biological brother was so intense. And I've heard people say, I never knew that I was. I never knew that it was possible to feel this relationship with a sibling because I was adopted, but he was biological and actually was born. The specific girl I'm talking about, she. She was older and then she was adopted because they didn't think they could.

[Aaron]

I think I know who you're talking.

[Ty]

Okay.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Ty]

And then her brother was a biological. And she said, I literally, like, does something to you.

[Kate]

Has to.

[Ty]

She's like, I could sense the shift in the house. I could. I could feel it, like. And it's like.

[Aaron]

And they know. They know. And those. When you talk to those adopted children as adults, they very much knew that they were the adopted child in the house. Not the biological.

[Ty]

And she said that nothing specific happened or was said. It just. That you could just. You could just feel it. That my whole life changed the moment he. Well, it's. Yeah. I mean, it's something that I don't think. Think other people think about. Like, you can. Not all kids are adopted. Some of them are adopted and biological. And that creates a really.

[Aaron]

A lot of times people adopted because they're told they can't have kids, and then they get pregnant. They have a child, but then they're like, oh, my God, all my prayers have been answered. I can have my own kid.

[Kate]

Right, Right.

[Aaron]

But then you're like, wait, but then you. But you spent all this time convincing this other child that you're my real child. So then there's that confusion, too, because again, whenever people are like, who? And that's the other thing. Like. Like, as a kid, people are constantly like, well, what about your real parents? People constantly say to adoptees, well, who are your real parents? Or where are your real parents? And then you're like, well, what does that mean?

[Ty]

What does that mean?

[Aaron]

Who are my real parents?

[Kate]

Right.

[Aaron]

So then you're given that responsibility of figuring out, like, well, these people are raising me, and they're there for me full time, and they're doing all the parental responsibility.

[Kate]

Right.

[Aaron]

These people, like, actually created me and gave birth to me. So, like, they're. And now as an adult, I have a full understanding that the people. People that. The person that grew me and created me and gave birth to me, that's my real parent. Like, that person created my life. They. I'm alive because of that person.

[Ty]

And I think people kind of like, that's when they're like, oh, well, my real parent, they're like, no, that was your real mother. And then people get like, the parent. And then versus a mother versus a parent are two different things. Or you don't have to be, you know, you don't have to be a parent in order to be a mom is what they're. Right. And I think obviously that probably comes from adoptees who are probably still in the fog or whatever. And I also noticed that that gets really. Like, they do not like to be told anything about the fog. They get very upset and said, don't label me. And it's weird. It's a tricky situation. I'm not trying. I just.

[Aaron]

You just want people to look inward and like, maybe, like, maybe, like, maybe just take it. Maybe look at it like me. Like, you don't have to.

[Ty]

Like, you can still be Mad about it.

[Aaron]

Just.

[Ty]

Yeah, just try.

[Aaron]

Try.

[Ty]

Yeah, just try. Yeah.

[Aaron]

Try to have some other perspective or, like, just try to understand that maybe you were led to believe something that isn't fully accurate. Like, that's. That's important. Like. Or, like, just acknowledge that two things could be true at once.

[Ty]

Right.

[Aaron]

You can acknowledge the fact that you had a good adoption, but that adoption is not a great thing.

[Kate]

I feel like even with birth, with, like, birth parents, for us, like, it's all, like, two feelings a lot, all the time. It can be happy and sad or, you know, make you angry and sad at the same time. Like, it all is.

[Ty]

And we talk about birth parent. We. Like, we really. But we. I think we went through our own little fog for years after placing.

[Aaron]

I mean, you definitely did. I mean, there's. I mean, you got a lot of criticism because you actually helped another. You actually went and helped another birth mother give her child up for adoption.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And you got a lot of backlash for that. But I think that that was just you being in the fog. Like, you thought you were doing the right thing and you didn't really understand that.

[Kate]

And I've seen people say, like, oh, you pressured her into it. And I was like, no, no, no. This was four years after Carly was placed, and this birth mom asked me, will you be in the room with me? And she had nobody. And I was like, of course I will say.

[Aaron]

Right. Like, you just felt like you don't want the person to be alone.

[Kate]

No, I don't want her to be alone. And then when her son was born, she kicked everybody out. She didn't let the adoptive parents in there, Nothing. And she was just her and her son for three days.

[Aaron]

But looking back, what would you. Looking back, what would you tell her now? If you have. Were presented with that same information now, and she came to you and said, like, will you be in the room? What should I do? Like, what. What different information would you give her now?

[Kate]

I think that I would try to talk to her and point out all of the support that she does have in her life.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Kate]

And tell her, like, you can do this. Like, this doesn't have to be your only option, because she did have a very. A very supportive family. Like, yes, it was out of wedlock, you know, or whatever, but that doesn't matter. And that doesn't define you. Yeah. There's a lot of things. Of course I wish I could go back and tell her we grow up.

[Aaron]

I know people ask me things all the time. Like, somebody asked me the other Day, like, what would I. Like, when we were on the live, they said, like, what would I have told you? Like, if you were. You know what I mean? If I. And I'm like, oh, my God, I don't know.

[Kate]

Right, right.

[Aaron]

Like, that's a really serious question. But, like. And, like, the. The answer that Brenda gave was one that I really loved. And she would have just told you that, like, you're worthy of being a mom.

[Ty]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

You're worthy of keeping your child. You're worthy of parenting your child. And you are. And you. You've proven that. Well, the two of you have proven that you're very worthy of parenting and being.

[Ty]

But I think part of the coercion stuff was that, like, that I didn't really realize back then was that everyone kept telling us, all the adults kept saying, in order to be the best parent, you have to not be one. And it was like, all right, all right. So any moment, any thought that I. We would have. And me and Kate talk about it. We looked at each other in the hospital multiple times, and we didn't have to say words, but we just knew, like, let's just run. Let's just get out of here with the baby, and we'll just run, and we don't care where the hell we go.

[Kate]

And it's like, telepathically.

[Ty]

Yeah. But it was like, afterwards, we're like, yeah, but even thinking about it made us feel guilty. Guilty because everyone's telling us, well, the best thing you can do if you want to be a good parent, don't be one. And it was like, okay, all right. So it's like, you know, I think looking back at me being now any birth parent, I would say. I would first ask, why are you doing this? And then after you tell me why, I would say, well, there's a solution for that.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Ty]

And whatever it is, we're going to relinquish, there's a solution for that. Let me help you find those resources, because I think that's what it comes down to. We were just talking to Gretchen Sisson the other day, and she was talking about how the number one reason is resource, like financial resources, like a thousand dollars.

[Aaron]

And I think now's a really good time to mention that there are organizations out there that do help, that are there to help. Saving our sisters is one of them. There's wonderful organizations that you can contact again. Saving our sisters. If you're a birth mother in need and you want to keep your child, there are people out there that will help you, it's on my list of things. One of my goals is, is to start a service like that in our area. I, you know, you guys have expressed wanting to help with that. I would love to make a non profit organization that fully supports birth bonds with, you know, and even afterwards like offering career services and education.

[Kate]

Right.

[Aaron]

Housing, child care.

[Kate]

It's so important, a full service.

[Aaron]

You know, how do you correct, how do you correct a problem? You fix society so that problem isn't there to begin. Absolutely shifted so that, and we're not going to change a 25 billion dollar industry because if billions of dollars are involved, no one's in a hurry to make changes or reform it or you know, do anything to it because then maybe it wouldn't be worth so much money.

[Ty]

Yeah, right.

[Aaron]

You know, so how do we, again, how do we take away the supply to that industry? We help birth mothers keep their children.

[Kate]

So that was going to be my question for you is like, so what, you know, where can people find you? And also kind of what are you going to continue doing as an adoptee to try to change this whole system?

[Aaron]

I mean that, I mean really, that, that's on my list of things to do right now. I have been overloaded with obviously I've had a lot of, there's been, you know, some personal situations that have put a lot of things on hold in my life right now. But I mean that, that is my goal is, is to, to try to get this non profit organization off, off the ground and do something with that. I, I'm still on tick tock Adopt the Advocate Aaron. I, I just make videos really. It's just to talk about it. I really just want people to understand that there's a different narrative out there and it's, you know, it may be scary to hear it first, but in the grand scheme of things we're really just trying to center adopted children. We're just trying to help children have a better life.

[Kate]

Absolutely.

[Aaron]

Be able to be well taken care of and have people be educated because they're not going to stop adoption. People that are against adoption and want to abolish adoption, it's, it's a great idea.

[Ty]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And I, I mean like obviously I'm anti adoption and if we could do away with adoption completely, I think that that would be great, but it's just not, I don't think it's a feasible situation right now in this country. We have to figure out a healthy, good way to provide safe external.

[Ty]

Yeah, baby steps, you know.

[Aaron]

And I think one of the big things that people, that people do push is. Is really finding a way to do it where the child doesn't lose their identity, they don't lose their medical records. They don't. You know what I mean? Because that's really the worst part of it. And that was really what got me searching for my birth family to begin with, was that I. I had kids and you go to the doctor and they're like, what's your medical history? And I'm like, I don't know. My kids don't know. And I was like, well, maybe I should find my birth family, because I would love to have my medical records. I still haven't been able to get a coherent medical history out of anybody in my family.

[Ty]

So honestly, that could change with federal law. We could. We. That adoption. Adoption.

[Kate]

There has to be baby steps into changing. But that's that right there.

[Aaron]

I mean, there is a database where, like, people, like, there is an actual database that's anonymous where, like, those. That information can be left. I don't know a lot about it, but I was actually. Someone just told me about it the other day. So the database does exist, but, like, you have to rely on the birth families to enter the information in and keep up with it. And I think that a lot of times, like, t, like you're 16 and you're giving a child out for adoption, you don't really have a medical history because you're 16. Like, nothing's really happened to you yet. Right.

[Kate]

I filled out whatever day.

[Aaron]

Like, you don't really know. Like, you can, you know what happened to your parents and stuff, but, like, you personally don't really have much. So, like, it's something that has to be ongoing. There has to be a way to, like, anonymously update the system as time goes on. Like, I was diagnosed with an autoimmune disease at 35 years old. But so, like, I would have never known about it, but it's genetic. So, like, so I would have to be able to go back into a system and be able to update that and people will be able to look at it, you know, as life goes on. But I mean, these systems need to. Need to exist because we have no rights. Adoptees have absolutely no rights at all whatsoever. Like, basic human rights.

[Ty]

And they're almost forced to our information forced into it. Like they have no choice, which is.

[Aaron]

Why, oh, I was five days old, I didn't consent to being adopted.

[Ty]

Right, right.

[Aaron]

I had noticed I had no choice in the matter. I had no choice in losing My medical history, my family, everything. I lost everything. And I wasn't able to get it back until I was 18 years old. That's 18 years of my life where I had no idea where I came from, who in my family existed, what my medical history was like, just nothing.

[Ty]

Which isn't fair.

[Kate]

And like you said, like, how you lost everything. Tyler and I always say that the adoptees most of all. And the birth parents lose everything.

[Aaron]

Yes.

[Kate]

While the adoptive parents literally are gaining everything. They lose. They lose nothing.

[Aaron]

They lose nothing.

[Kate]

And I think that.

[Aaron]

But they love to talk about their loss.

[Ty]

I know.

[Kate]

Yeah, they do.

[Ty]

Yes. It's very like.

[Aaron]

I mean, they're in that same interview where Brandon was talking about the fear of her wanting to have a relationship with you. It was all. All we heard about was true. And. And, you know, the infertility and the loss. And the infertility and the loss. And it's like you need to heal that before you take on someone else's child.

[Ty]

Right.

[Aaron]

Like, you're. If you're literally crying about the fact that you can't have your own child, you're not ready to take on someone else's child. If you're literally in tears.

[Kate]

Yep.

[Aaron]

Crying about the fact that you can't have your own child, you're not going to do someone else's child justice.

[Ty]

Right.

[Aaron]

You're just getting them to fill the void of not being able to have your own child.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Ty]

Which isn't child centered.

[Aaron]

No. And they're gonna know it. They're gonna know it. There's no way it's supposed to be adoption.

[Kate]

I mean, child centered.

[Ty]

Yes.

[Kate]

So I think. What was I gonna say? So I think people that are like, whether you're listening or watching, and if you're interested in learning more, and I think everybody should take even just five minutes out of their day to educate themselves about adoptees and listen to adoptees. If you go to Tick Tock, you can search, you know, like adoptee talk or Adopt D talk and. Or anything like that, and just listen to what these people are saying. I think it's very educational and just try to put yourselves in their shoes and understand where they're coming from. Obviously, this is our first podcast with our first adoptee and one of our friends, and it's very important to be talked about. And I just want to say thank you, Aaron, for always being vulnerable, always being there, always helping educate us, you know, and always allowing Ty and I to ask, like an adoptee questions so that we can learn and make sure we're kind of navigating in the right way.

[Ty]

Yeah. Cause we message you the same day and not even know it.

[Aaron]

I know.

[Kate]

And then now we're all like, she's our adoptee mom. That's what we're gonna call her, you know? But, like, seriously, just for you being vulnerable and coming on and talking, and I think. I think what we're all trying to do is very important work. And I hope, you know, I'm hoping this won't be the last time that you're on just the first time.

[Aaron]

And I hope that you guys don't get discouraged by people telling you not to talk about adoption in a negative way. And I also. I also want to point out the fact that. But people say all the time that you say negative things about Carly's parents and you say negative things about adoption. And I've been talking to you guys for a year now, and I've literally never heard you say a negative word about. About their parents. You. You.

[Ty]

Even in private.

[Aaron]

Even in private, like, even though. Right, right, right. You're not out here badmouthing people. You're not out here badmouthing adoption. You're just trying to educate people so that they can be healthier in the ways that they're raising their adopted children. And there's nothing wrong with that. You're using your voice to help advocate for. For your daughter. Really? Really. I mean, and I think that that's a beautiful thing, and I think that a lot of adoptees can relate to you and really appreciate you because we see how much you love your daughter, and we all wish that we had that. So, like, for us, having you in our community has been, like, a really beautiful thing. I hope so, because it gives us hope. I mean, it really does. It gives us hope that, like, our parents wanted us. Do you know what I mean? That they will fight for us and that it. They will advocate for the adoption community that she's a part of. I mean, at the end of the day, she's a part of that.

[Ty]

Yeah. I don't. People think that we're coming here trampling all over, you know, I'd say. And you're inserting yourself like, we're just trying to. Yeah. Make a platform that people can hear.

[Aaron]

Right. And I mean.

[Ty]

Right.

[Aaron]

Because people are going to be giving their children up for adoption. Like, that's not going to stop. So how can we help them be better parents to their adults? Therapy.

[Kate]

Therapy.

[Aaron]

Therapy. Therapy. Therapy. Therapy. Therapy. Therapy. Therapy. Yes. So might a trauma informed therapist that understands adoption if you have adopted child.

[Kate]

So I'm hoping this won't be the last time, but just the first time back.

[Aaron]

Yes, definitely. I'm excited to see you talk to all the other adoptees.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

You have some really good guests coming on.

[Ty]

Thank you, Aaron.

[Kate]

Thank you.

[Ty]

Thank you, guys.

[Aaron]

You're the best.