We're "Trauma Bonded" and We Like It

Summary

Podcast Summary: Cate & Ty Break It Down!

Episode Title: We're "Trauma Bonded" and We Like It
Release Date: March 19, 2025
Hosts: Tyler and Catelynn (Cate) Baltierra

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1. Introduction and Listener Engagement

The episode opens with Cate and Ty expressing gratitude to their listeners for the overwhelming feedback they've received. They highlight their interactive approach through Instagram polls and questions, emphasizing a segment they aim to introduce called "Unlicensed Advice," where they offer non-professional guidance based on their personal experiences.

Cate [00:14]: "We've been using our Instagram page to kind of, like, bring you guys into this whole experience... you guys bring up stuff that we never even thought of."

Ty [01:23]: "Whenever you send something in, I always keep it anonymous. So that way, you know, it just keeps people private."

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2. Revisiting Reality TV: Postpartum Depression and Weight Struggles

Cate and Ty delve into their experiences on MTV's 16 and Pregnant and Teen Mom, specifically addressing the portrayal of Cate's postpartum depression and the intense focus on her weight loss journey. Cate expresses frustration over how the producers repeatedly emphasized her weight, painting it as the central narrative of their early post-marriage life.

Ty [03:04]: "It was the worst season of my life. Honestly."

Cate [04:30]: "It just came across so harsh... behind closed doors, you were talking about how bad you want to lose weight."

They acknowledge that while weight loss was a genuine part of their lives, the reality TV lens often distorted their intentions and feelings, leading to public misconceptions.

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3. Navigating Mental Health Together

The conversation shifts to a deeper exploration of mental health, particularly focusing on Cate's postpartum depression. Both hosts reflect on their lack of understanding and awareness at the time, leading to misunderstandings and strained interactions.

Cate [07:00]: "I have no clue... I was trying to tread lightly because I didn't know what was going on."

Ty [15:22]: "I didn't even know that I had it until I was out of it, which is crazy."

Ty shares her journey of seeking proper treatment, including genetic testing to find effective medications, highlighting the importance of tailored mental health care.

Ty [27:05]: "Genetic testing changed my life because now I'm on the lowest dose of an antidepressant medicine that you can take. And I don't feel like a zombie."

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4. Debunking the "Trauma Bonded" Label

A significant portion of the episode addresses the concept of trauma bonding in their relationship. Cate and Ty clarify misconceptions, emphasizing that while they've endured challenges, their bond is rooted in mutual support and love rather than unhealthy dependency.

Cate [34:50]: "We're trauma bonded. Oh, my God."

Ty [35:01]: "Agreed. We are not trauma bonded. It’s where mutual support and shared experiences strengthen a relationship."

They reference professional opinions to affirm that their relationship is healthy and not characterized by toxic trauma bonding.

Cate [35:10]: "The bad trauma bondage is when you're abusing each other and being very toxic."

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5. Relationship and Conflict Resolution Advice

Transitioning into their "Unlicensed Advice" segment, Cate and Ty tackle listener questions about maintaining healthy relationships and effective communication. They offer practical tips on setting boundaries with toxic parents and addressing intimacy concerns without causing hurt.

a. Setting Boundaries with Toxic Parents

Cate [46:20]: "A boundary is to protect me... It’s to protect yourself."

Ty [47:25]: "With my mom, I had to create boundaries... don't drink around me."

b. Addressing Intimacy Issues

They discuss the importance of honest communication when addressing dissatisfaction in the bedroom, emphasizing the need to focus on personal needs and collaboratively finding solutions.

Cate [49:24]: "You have to be honest and communicate. Not to criticize, but to make it amazing."

Ty [52:01]: "It's all about learning and growth and learning about what tools you need."

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6. Ethical Considerations in Adoption

Cate and Ty engage in a candid discussion about the ethics of adoption, particularly infant adoption versus foster care adoption. They stress the importance of trauma-informed practices and prioritize the well-being of the child over the adoptive parents' desires.

Cate [56:03]: "I don't think infant adoption is ethical... foster care adoption is very ethical because you're helping children already in crisis."

Ty [57:04]: "Permanent legal guardianship... gives birth parents some rights and protects the child."

They highlight the necessity for adoptive parents to introspect their motivations and ensure that adoption serves the child's best interests without imposing their own trauma or needs.

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7. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Wrapping up the episode, Cate and Ty reiterate their commitment to addressing complex issues with honesty and compassion. They encourage listeners to foster open communication in their relationships and advocate for better mental health support systems.

Ty [59:56]: "Adoption is ethical only when it's child-centered and trauma-informed."

Cate [60:09]: "It's not about being selfish; it's about ensuring the child's well-being."

Finally, they invite listeners to engage with future episodes, promising continued discussions on heartwarming moments, behind-the-scenes insights, and personal growth.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Cate [07:00]: "I have no clue... I was trying to tread lightly because I didn't know what was going on."
• Ty [27:05]: "Genetic testing changed my life because now I'm on the lowest dose of an antidepressant medicine that you can take. And I don't feel like a zombie."
• Cate [35:10]: "The bad trauma bondage is when you're abusing each other and being very toxic."
• Ty [52:01]: "It's all about learning and growth and learning about what tools you need."

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Final Notes

This episode of Cate & Ty Break It Down! offers an intimate glimpse into the hosts' personal journeys with mental health, the challenges of reality TV exposure, and the complexities of adoption. Their honest discourse provides valuable insights for listeners navigating similar experiences, emphasizing the importance of communication, self-awareness, and ethical considerations in personal and familial relationships.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome, you guys. Back to Kate and Ty. Break it down. We are on episode. Don't even remember.

[B]

Nope. Don't recall.

[A]

But we appreciate you guys listening and chiming in, and we've gotten so much feedback.

[B]

We really have.

[A]

Like, we've been using our Instagram page to kind of, like, kind of bring you guys into this whole experience, which I think is the best, because you guys bring up stuff that we never even. I would never even have thought of.

[B]

No, I know. And I forgot. I did. I posted another, like, what? Juicy. Juicy secrets thing today. And. Because I always think it's so fun to, like. Yeah. And I forgot to look at it. I posted it this morning. So I really like that, you know, Tyler and I, we can create polls and ask you guys questions, or, you know, we really want to do a segment called, like, unlicensed Advice. Because we're both not therapists, but we can kind of give you what we would do in a certain scenario or situation.

[A]

You're hanging out with friends, and you're like, hey, right?

[B]

And I advise somebody's. Somebody's comment on it was like, can you just be my unlicensed therapist? Therapist forever? I was like, that is funny.

[A]

Sure, sure. I'll do it for free.

[B]

See, like, there's already some good anonymous secrets. Yeah. I might have to pull those up at the end. But for later on in today's episode, I do have some of your guys's questions that you wanted unlicensed advice on, so we'll talk about that later. And just so everybody knows, whenever you send something in, I always keep it anonymous. So that way, you know, it just keeps people private, I think. Yeah, I like it.

[A]

That's what they say. Like, hey, you can say my name.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Even if you tell us, though, that you. We can say your name, we're probably not gonna say your name. I think it's better when it's anonymous.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because, hey, it just works.

[B]

You don't have to worry about, you know, people figuring out who you are or whatever.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

[B]

So I know, like, you were talking about what you wanted to talk about, certain things they have on the show. I was thinking about talking about, like, mental health stuff.

[A]

I think it kind of all comes together in that realm.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But I think. I think it's. I think it's important that we, in the beginning of this kind of go through stuff that we feel we should just clarify things on.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Or explain further. Whatever.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And the first thing that I was like, well, I. What. I see a lot of is obviously people are taking the clips that we filmed, you know, I don't know, 10, 12 years ago, whatever, and they're kind of using it in nowadays way and like, oh, this is what was going on back then and how.

[B]

Trying to dissect.

[A]

Yeah. Whatever they're trying to do. And, and of course it always comes back to like your, when you were just had severe postpartum depression and when you were down and out and when you were worried about your weight and, and remember we did a whole, it was like a whole season. Oh my God.

[B]

That was the worst season of my life. Honestly.

[A]

It was the worst season actually. It was like two seasons. I feel like we had a certain producer and it just wasn't working. We.

[B]

Well, no, but I just felt like also too, it was just very like weight driven. Like the whole story was about like my weight. And I'm like, why is this a subject? Especially when I just had a baby, mind you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then we're talking about weight. Like, that's not good for any female.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I also feel like it's almost like when you're filming a reality show, it's like you bring up one thing even if you're just talking to the producer, like just chilling, right. And then they go, oh. And they, they like attack that situation and go, okay, let's, let's, let's like, oh, that's interesting.

[B]

Like we said before in previous episodes where we would say stuff, they're like, that's interesting. We're like, what, how, how is that interesting?

[A]

And I feel like that season was like the moment you mentioned about losing the baby weight because everything was about like, oh, you're, you're our first child or parenting, you know, whatever, you're getting married now. And it was all came all about your weight. And I remember being like, we talk about it all the time. You always mentioned about like, I, I want to lose weight. I'm going to do Weight Watchers. I want to do this, I want to do that. And so we talked about it a lot and it never, it never was like a negative bad thing. But I think when you're in a situation, you're filming a show and they're like, hey, hey, hey, hey. We're eating a meal, right? And we're talking about. And they're like, hey, so how's the weight loss thing going?

[B]

Right? It's like, oh, of course. What's an awkward spin on it? It's like, why I wouldn't really be talking about this while I'M eating dinner.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like what.

[A]

I feel like when that situation was going on, it was like, what the. What the TV didn't show was that behind closed doors, you were talking about how bad you want to lose weight.

[B]

Yeah. How I needed to be held accountable.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I do need help with those certain things.

[A]

And you. Those are your words. You're like, listen, you need to hold me accountable because I'm good at this. Like, okay. And I'm like, I think, you know, 10, 11 years ago, I was. My delivery was off. I. I messed up tremendously with my delivery. I won't say I don't think my intent was wrong. I just feel like the way I delivered and expressed that intent was wrong.

[B]

Oh, I can. Yeah. I understand what you're saying.

[A]

And especially when you're filming a show in it, and this is like the fourth time they've asked this question.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's like, all right, you know, how much points is that? Like, what. What's. You know, after a while, it gets super annoying. But I did it because that's part of our job and we were filming. So I just feel like I've been seeing all these comments and the. And the people tagging us, and I'm.

[B]

Like, well, I think the biggest one that I see the most is people always play that scene where you're like, well, I don't want a heifer for a wife. But they don't know the backstory of it. Like, it's not like you met. It's not like you were saying that I'm a heer. I'm going to be a heer, you know, But I feel like that's how people take it. Like, we. We jo. Like that all the time. Like, you always say, like, well, I'm sure you wouldn't want getting down and dirty with somebody who's got a big old beer belt.

[A]

Yeah. Like, Right.

[B]

You joke about that stuff.

[A]

Yeah. And I feel like in that context, it, like, I notice a lot of the clips they play, they don't play the afterwards where it was like, well, do you think I'm a heifer? And I'm like, no, my God, no.

[B]

Well, right, because on, like, tick tock and stuff, they'll edit it.

[A]

Yeah. You know, so it hits their narrative and it works good for their story.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But I'm like, you know, like, that heifer scene, bro, I will never.

[B]

You'll never be able to live that down.

[A]

Ever. Live it out. But I think it's interesting because they're. They play it as if I called you one. Yeah, they do you think I called you a heifer?

[B]

No, I do not think that you called me a heifer.

[A]

Great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So glad. Because I remember thinking, like, you don't. Like, there's no way. Like, I hope that never came across like I was calling you.

[B]

People must really think that I'm just like some abused pushover, you know?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

My mind.

[A]

I have no clue.

[B]

Because as far as. Just like, how we talked in the last episode about you forcing me to do an adoption, now you're calling me a heifer and I just stay with you.

[A]

What the.

[B]

Like, do. People must really think I'm, like, a weak.

[A]

I don't.

[B]

I think that's how it comes across to me. I'm like, wow.

[A]

I think what they do is they try to understand why. Why would this. What's an excuse for her to stay or this to work out?

[B]

I don't have to have an excuse.

[A]

And that's the thing. There is no excuse, because I never called you a heifer. IT producer asking, Tyler, what do you. What do you look for? I can't remember what she said. And I was like, well, obviously, I don't want. No, I. I mean, honest. You. You asked me what I wanted or didn't want, and I was being honest, and I felt like, just the same way I'd ask you, like, do you want some big old Hefen dude?

[B]

Right.

[A]

You're drinking beer belly guy. And you're like, no. And I'm like, all right, cool. Now, I think it's ironic because I think if you said that, I don't think you get as much hate.

[B]

Probably not.

[A]

Do you know what I'm saying? It was the fact that I had a. Said what I said, and then I'm a guy and you're a girl. I think it just. It obviously, I get it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Looking back, but. And then I also feel like when we were doing all those scenes and they were asking. Always brought up when we were eating.

[B]

It was like, yeah, it was all the time.

[A]

Oh, you know, how's the weight loss going? As you're taking a bite? And I'm like, oh, it just. It just came across so harsh.

[B]

Well, and I think for me, it was just like, why is this. I just don't understand why it's becoming the whole part of my life. My life is so much more than me, like, wanting to lose weight before I get married, you know?

[A]

Yeah. But also, one thing that they don't understand is that it was like two seasons, one where you're pregnant and then they, I felt like they just kind of continued on with the weight thing after that. Because when you were pregnant, you had gestational diabetes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And your doctor was like, it's a big concern. And you went in there and you gained it in there. She was like, you can't. Yeah, something, something happened.

[B]

Yeah, but. Yeah, but I do, I do recall though, like, I had my gestational diabetes on point. You did like. Yeah, I was very. Because it scared the out of me. Do you remember when I went in there, I was like crying, like, oh my God, what are we gonna do? I can't eat chicken strips with ranch. Like, that was my, you know. But so, no, I was very. And so at that point, when I found out that I adjusted gestational diabetes, I was like so anal about tracking stuff and my sugars were so good. And I ended up not gaining any weight after that because I was so like, it scared me.

[A]

Yeah. Scared the hell out of me too. And that's what I think people don't understand is that I was making these, I was making these comments in the, in, in these concerns. I was bringing up these concerns based off of like being concerned. I was like, I'm concerned because she had, she list all those. I went to the appointment with you and she listed all those things that could have possibly happened to the baby.

[B]

Yeah. The baby could be bigger. Like all that stuff.

[A]

And I'm like, what? Like it's so. It freaked me out. So I felt like the way it was portrayed was that I was like doing it in a, like an aggressive control thing. Like, like, you.

[B]

What the hell's wrong play. I like seemed to take it in, but it wasn't like that.

[A]

I, I was concerned. I was scared.

[B]

Yeah, you were more. You're more or less concerned for me, my well being and the child that is ours that I'm caring.

[A]

Yeah. You know, I also feel like it comes down to like, I'm, I'm concerned for your health. I just. So my intent was my concern for your health. My delivery did not. Wasn't very good.

[B]

You know, you're very like, I know you. You know, so it's like they don't. Right. And I know you on such a deep level where, you know, you're very blunt and very just like, oh, yeah, that's not it. You know what I mean? But I know what, how you are. And also people don't see behind the scenes, but I'm like, shut up. You. You Know like, you know what I mean? Like, or whatever I need to say, like you're cocky as you know or I come around and show my finger.

[A]

You know dude, I don't know if any other guys out there but it's so irritating. D. Cuz I like his wife just anytime anything random and she comes out with this finger trying to shove it up my ass and I swear to God I'm like, get up. Like it makes me clench up.

[B]

Well, yeah, you know, it be. It would be very weird if you liked it.

[A]

You know what? I don't know.

[B]

But some guys probably like that they're out there. Yeah. So I guess.

[A]

But I feel like, I don't know, I just feel like that that's something I see a lot and I'm like, I take full accountability for my delivery. It was wrong. Kids was young, I was naive. I didn't know about postpartum depression. I didn't know about like, I guess my main thing was that I knew you didn't take it offensively.

[B]

No, I didn't.

[A]

And so if you would have said.

[B]

That, asked you to hold me accountable.

[A]

You did so and so. And they didn't put that on camera.

[B]

Obviously that wasn't filmed though either.

[A]

Right. But. And I asked you like, is this hurting you? Like are you offended? And you said no. So I feel like you, you would have. And if you would have said yeah, that really hurt my feelings. I would have been like, holy.

[B]

Yeah. You would have felt like, so sorry.

[A]

I was. Yeah. That wasn't my intent. Like, oh my God. Like I don't. I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to say that. But looking back at clips and the music they play and how they cut, I mean, I see people's perspective.

[B]

Yeah. And like you said, maybe your delivery was wrong, you know, you think my delivery is wrong. I mean, I can see like how people could internalize what you said in a different way with your delivery. Yeah.

[A]

Yes. But you know my.

[B]

So that's what I'm saying. Like I know we've been together for so like, do people forget that, like we've been together for so long that like I just know you as a person and I know that. And also too, like, I know your heart. Like, you're not the type of person that is gonna want to say degrading things to me because you love me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And vice versa. So.

[A]

So. And I also feel like I trust you to tell me, hey, that was up. Or hey, that was.

[B]

Or I would say that hurt my Feelings.

[A]

Yeah. And I'd be like, oh my God, you know? So I don't know, I just feel like that was something that I, I, I see a lot. Which I'll probably never let that down.

[B]

Probably not. And people are still going to always think that I'm a weak ass.

[A]

Okay. And they're going to still say that I called you Heer. And that's, I mean it is what it is. That's fine.

[B]

Well, if you watch the clip, you don't say you're a heifer. I don't want you as a wife. You said, well, of course I don't want to heifer for a wife. Like, that's different.

[A]

And I was literally answering the producer. She asked the question. I was answering her. I said, why don't I know heaven for? I mean, she asked me that question.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So like what I would want or what I didn't, what I wouldn't want. So I was just answering the question. My truth, I guess. You know what I mean? But then there's also a scene that I forgot we filmed and it was like we're eating dinner with your dad and his girlfriend at the time.

[B]

I've seen that clip recently and I watch it back.

[A]

I'm like, oh, was rough. That scene was, it was cringy. Yeah, yeah, it was bad because it was like the whole table was like, well, yeah, just going to have a calorie diet, blah, blah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, and they, they aired my part speaking about how, oh, she used to eat so much, so little and now.

[B]

Oh, and they eat like a bird.

[A]

You said it first. You're like, why used to eat so much little? And then they, and then I was like, I piggyback off what you said and was like, yeah, she used to eat all the time and get really full. And they didn't air the part of you saying at first about you saying, well, I used to eat really. Not a lot at all.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And get full really fast. So it just, but that scene, I was like, oh God.

[B]

Yeah, it looked crazy.

[A]

And then I thought about my, oh.

[B]

And my dad was like saying stuff and his girlfriend. Yeah, I think I was just irritated with the whole thing. And my, so my face was just like, oh my God.

[A]

Because that was probably the fifth or sixth conversation the producer wanted to have.

[B]

That we've had about weight. Yeah.

[A]

That whole, the whole, those two seasons.

[B]

Were just, yeah, that was hell.

[A]

It was, it was annoying and it was.

[B]

Isn't that funny how to how like you see, see like clips and stuff that People post and you're like, I don't even remember filming that. Never even know that what is filmed.

[A]

Well, I think a lot of it when you had postpartum depression was pretty, like, blurry, because I remember you were, like, on the couch a lot. And I remember being like, the cameras are coming to film. And I remember feeling anxious because I'm like, oh, my God, you know, like, maybe we should go film in the kitchen or something. Because, you know, you were laying down on the couch a lot or whatever. And so, like, I remember feeling anxious. Like, oh, my God. Like, I don't wanna. I almost look like. Yeah, no, no. I almost. I didn't want. I didn't want them to see you in that way. Like, I was. I was so, like, worried about you that I was like, I don't want them to see her in this way.

[B]

You're like, this is not my wife.

[A]

Yeah, it's not her. This is not who she is.

[B]

Like, well, we were married at that point, but. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. But I. I didn't know about postpartum depression, so. I didn't know that.

[B]

I didn't either.

[A]

I had no idea. I just didn't know what was going on. You know what I mean?

[B]

I think it's crazy because, yeah, like, I. You know, people ask me questions a lot about the postpartum and stuff. And the weird part for me was I didn't even know that I had it until I was out of it, which is crazy. Yeah.

[A]

Wild.

[B]

Like, when I was going through it, I just was going through it, I guess, like. But when I. When I got out of it, on the other side of it and looked back, I was like, oh, wow.

[A]

We were very disconnected. You were very like, couch, phone, bed.

[B]

Yeah. And I was very. I was also. Was like. I don't think people realize, but that was in the beginning stages also of my mental health decline. That was the first time in life that I've ever experienced anything with mental health.

[A]

Panic attack. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Any massive panic attacks out of nowhere or anything. So I also was on, like, a massive high dose of antidepressants, which is crazy because it didn't even help with the postpartum depression. Come to find out, you know, years and years down the road, when I did a genetic testing, found out that that medicine wasn't even working within my body. So it makes sense why it wouldn't help the postpartum because it wasn't even helping me mentally, let alone.

[A]

You were literally like a robot. And I think people don't really, people, like, I think people look back at that, and a lot of the scenes that were aired were us talking about certain stuff. You're late for your appointment. And I. And at that point, I am so naive with postpartum depression in general. And also just frustrated.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That this is happening and not understanding why we're about to get married. I'm like, who am I marrying? What's this?

[B]

Is it. You know what I mean?

[A]

I'm going through my own. But I. I didn't want to, like, pour it all out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I didn't know what was going on. And so I was trying to tread lightly, and I just. I guess I sucked at treading lightly because I. I am too blunt, and I just speak and whatever. Like, I. Yeah. I just know. I just remember feeling very stuck.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Super, like, stuck. And also concerned. Like, is this the rest of our life? Is this what's going to be? Like. Like, this is crazy.

[B]

Well, and like you said, it comes from just people being uneducated about postpartum depression. And then also, you look at it now. I mean, now we're, you know, as we've dug even deeper about the adoption stuff, I never knew that, you know, first moms or birth moms, they have a way higher likelihood of having postpartum depression when they go to parent their children. And of course, now that I'm, like, older and think about it, I'm like, of course. That's totally logical. Like, how could you not? You know, your body remembers all the stuff that you went through with this baby that you placed. Of course it's gonna freak out when you have another child.

[A]

Yeah. It's like post relinquishment parenting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They call it, like, you know, a birth mom who was placed and then she goes on to have other kids. Like, post relinquishing parenting is a super triggering thing. And I think, honestly, like, look back at it. I think it's exactly what happened. You had Nova. We were all, we're supposed to be happy. And you're like, why am I not, like, feeling, like, what's going. It's. I think it just was subconscious. Yeah. It was just like, your body remembers the score.

[B]

Yeah. Your nervous system. Like. Yeah. Because even after we got married and stuff, too, I still had it. Like, people think that postpartum depression is only for a few months or it only. And it depends on the person. It can last up to, like, over a year with some people.

[A]

Some are longer.

[B]

Yeah. And there's very much different degrees of postpartum Depression too. I think mine was just like anxiety.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Cuz you. It's not like you didn't bond with Nova.

[B]

Oh, no, I definitely did.

[A]

Yeah. Some women like, you know, talk about, like, not be able to bond. Didn't really hold. Didn't like, have this. The desire. And you weren't like that at all. You just seemed very robotic. It's just like I remember talking to you and you'd be like, you know. Yeah. And I was just like, God, there's nothing. There's no, like, like reciprocal anything that.

[B]

Was overly dosed too.

[A]

And you were like, just, just. Just like this numb walking thing.

[B]

I mean, that's definitely how it was. I think I couldn't feel anything. I was just there, if that makes sense.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's like. I remember when my great grandma died and I was like, I didn't even cry.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I was like, how do I not feel? I think I even remember telling you that. Like, I'm not even like, why don't I even just feel sad about it? Like, you didn't feel happy, sad, excited, nothing. You were just kind of there.

[A]

Neutral.

[B]

Yeah, very neutral.

[A]

Yeah. So weird when you think about it, because you were not ever like that. No, I knew something was off. I just didn't know how to deal with it. And like. Yeah, I don't know. I just feel. I. Looking back, I just feel really bad. I wish I would have been more educated. I wish someone would have like, pulled me aside and said like, hey, have you asked for this? Have you tried this? Have you done that? You know what I mean? I was just trying to like, fit. I was almost like trying to pretend like it would just go away.

[B]

Well, don't beat yourself up too bad about it. I mean, we all didn't know. No, it was going on.

[A]

I. I was. I was. I was. What do you call it?

[B]

I was worried, frustrated, angry for sure.

[A]

But I think the worry manifested in the frustration because I'm like, all right, get up. We're gonna go for a walk. You're like, come on. Like, like, you know, and. And then when you just didn't want to do it or he had no enthusiasm, I was like, I just want to shake you. Like, what's wrong with you? Like, you know what I mean? Like, so that concern turned into frustration. I think the frustration is what was delivered when we were filming because they wanted, of course, to dive deep into that. Oh, she's on the. Oh, it's going. And I'm like, you know, so. Yeah, I don't know. I just feel bad. I feel if I go back in time, I wish I would have been, you know, much more educated and more softer.

[B]

Well, and obviously you must have had a. A change of thinking or mind eventually, because it wasn't even documented. But, I mean, when you came up to our room, you know, when I was upstairs laying in bed and you just said, something's wrong. Are you okay? And then that gave me the freedom where I just broke down. I was like, no, I don't think I'm okay. Like, I think something's wrong here. You know, First.

[A]

I remember at first, like, I don't know. And I was like, you don't know? Like, I mean, usually people answer like, yeah, I'm good, or, no, I'm not. You're like, I don't know. And I'm like, that's. That's what I'm saying. Like, yeah. And. Yeah. Like, I remember, like, going up to the room, too, because obviously when you went up there to take a nap, I just left. You know, I'm like, whatever, it's fine. But I remember going up there. I'm like, I can't do this anymore, because I remember thinking my head up there. It comes to a point when you're dealing with someone else who has a mental illness or has something going on where burnout, fatigue, it's like, you get.

[B]

Well, it takes a toll on the other person.

[A]

The caretaker gets, like, caretaking, fatigue. They get burnt out. They feel whatever they feel. And so I felt like, I can't do this anymore.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because then what? I. If I lose myself by trying to always protect this, then. Then what?

[B]

Well, right. Yeah.

[A]

Now Nova's got two parents who are checked out. You know what I mean? Because I'm over here. You know, whatever. So I remember going up to the room and just being like, we got it. Something's gotta. Something's gotta happen.

[B]

Right? Something's gotta change. Well, I remember you were the very. You were a driving force to being like, we're gonna go see a psychiatrist. Like, there's people you can talk to. You know, all of the things. Because. And also, I feel like that's. It was a blessing that I had you in my life during that time because you. Your mental health journey started at a younger age. So you kind of knew about seeing. Seeing psychiatrists and therapists and thing like, things like that. Mine literally just smacked me in my face. And my. I was like 20 or 21 or something.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I never experienced anything like that in my entire Life. So I was like, what is this feeling? This is scary. You know, so. And you knew kind of the steps to push me in the right direction to help myself.

[A]

Yeah, it was scary. I mean.

[B]

Oh, yeah, it was scary because I.

[A]

Feel like people don't know what it's like to be the other person. They're like, oh, my God, you know, I feel so bad. She's depressed and she said, but no one knows what it's like when you're love somebody. Watching them do it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Watching them just crumble.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In front of you and like, you can't do anything about it. Like, it's like you feel so helpless. It's like, oh, my God, like, what do I do? So I feel like at the same time, I was going through my own stuff. Just putting it on the back burner.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, no, but knowing that I'll come back to this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like you said, I had a little bit more experience with, like, therapy and stuff like that, being a younger kid. So I knew. I was like, I'm just gonna put this in the back burner. I'll visit later. Yeah, but you're the priority at that point. So I feel like, you know, I just. I don't know. I just feel like the postpartum depression stuff needs to be talked about more.

[B]

Like, I mean, it does. You hear these stories on the news of that one, you know, the one mom killing all three of her kids and jumping out of the window trying to kill herself. There's been a newer story, too, about this mom shooting all of her kids and then shooting herself, and they're all linked back to postpartum depression. And it's because there aren't enough resources out into the world to help women. I mean, you go to your doctors and you answer, like a test, and if they. If you. Comes up that you feel like you have postpartum, they're like, here's some pills. But nobody directs you into, like, here's. You need to go to therapy. It's normal. It's okay. Here's support. Like, there needs to be more support for women after birth and just help out.

[A]

There's one of those things, too. Like you said, you went to. You go to the doctor and they say, here's some pills. That's half the treatment plan.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Any psychiatrist or therapist will tell you pills are half 50. The other 50 is therapy. Like, yeah, dude, you can't just take a pill. If that. If you could just take a pill, everyone, we would have no mental health crisis. Right, Right. And everything would be fine.

[B]

Yeah, that doesn't solve it.

[A]

So that's the whole point is that pills are 50 of the treatment plan.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think a lot of people don't even.

[B]

50? Yeah. I mean it might be a little less because you haven't heard talk therapy. And it's hard ass. Work hard.

[A]

Yeah. And scary. Yeah, like super scary. But.

[B]

But I don't think people realize too, when you talk about being the other person and watching your person that you love too. Those people need support too. Like the caretaker, you know, the.

[A]

Yeah, the birth fatigue. Yeah. I didn't know about it at all. To my therapist, like, oh, you, you're. You're burnt out. And I'm like, okay, I'm a dad. And yeah, like, sure, yeah. No, no, you're not understanding. It's like a thing. It's like a caretaking fatigue. Like you literally. And, and they can lead into caretaking. You can get depressed.

[B]

Right. Oh, makes sense.

[A]

I remember I, like I said I was freaked out cuz I'm like, oh my God, I can't afford that. I said we can't both be depressed people. Like, you know, like, oh.

[B]

And it was like 10 months.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Figure it out.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I'm like, oh my God, like, what? And so I remember like learning about it and reading about it. Oh, okay. Like this is what I gotta do. And that's when I kind of makes sense though. That's when I was kind of like, okay, I can't put this in the back burner for too much.

[B]

No, bring it forward.

[A]

But yeah, I just think, yeah, I think the, the post birth resources for women should be higher.

[B]

And I think, yeah, like I said, I vividly remember you go to your OB, answer like a little spreadsheet, yes or no questions, one out of 10 and they're like, oh, you're okay, or oh, you're mild or oh, you're severe. And it's like, well, here, go. You know, you have to get on Zoloft or whatever. And it's like, yeah, okay, but what about like support groups or psychiatrists or.

[A]

Just counsellings out there now where you know that people talk about their experience and also like, what about genetic testing? Like, why are we not. Genetic testing is what you do to figure out what your body metabolizes. As far as medication goes, it works for everything from Tylenol to, oh yeah, antipsychotics. And tell you exactly what medication will not work and what medication will work.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why we're not implementing that into the medical Field is weird to me. Like, that should be literally a paid for, insurance covered thing where you get a genetic test done every time that you go to a doctor. And, and then once you get that list, you know, okay, that. Why, why be guinea pig?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Medications.

[B]

I don't know, because, I mean, when I was in, when I was in treatment and the, the doctor there was like, I think you should know. Do you want to do genetic testing? And he explained it to me about how, yeah, you don't have to do the guinea pig stuff and you find out what works for your body. I was like, absolutely.

[A]

It was expensive, but it was worth it.

[B]

Yeah. My insurance wouldn't cover it, but I was like, I don't care. Like, that's important to me. And then I got the results back and he was like, you were on 200 milligrams of Zoloft and your body was only metabolizing like 2025 milligrams. And I was on the highest dose. And I was like, oh, my gosh, it makes complete sense. And even with him, he was like, of course you're still experiencing all these things even when you're doing therapy and stuff. And so.

[A]

Which I think brings up a good point. People say, oh, she got back from treatment. Went back to it. Going back to it. It's like, no, no, she went back to treatment because her symptoms were not gone.

[B]

They weren't gone.

[A]

Well, because now we know why.

[B]

Well, because the first time I went there, I didn't switch any medications. Nothing. I went there for, like, really intense therapy and it helped a lot. It did. But then I came home and I felt like something was still off. And I was like, you know, I need to go back. I think I need to switch my meds and stuff. And then I went back, did the genetic testing, still was doing very intense therapies and stuff like that. And then when my results came back that the medication I was taking wasn't even working for my body, we switched my medications. All of that continued on with therapy. And honestly, it literally changed my life.

[A]

Yep. Genetic testing isn't that crazy?

[B]

Changed my life because now I'm on the lowest dose of an antidepressant medicine that you can take. And I don't feel like a zombie. I still have emotions and feelings. I can still have conversations. And I just feel. I honestly, it saved my life.

[A]

I feel like I think it did too, because I remember after the six weeks or whatever, after you being on the new stuff, I was like, oh, wow. Like, there's A little bit. I could see a little bit of light coming back.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah, it really.

[B]

It changed. It changed my life for sure. And I think, you know, it's been a journey for me, but I feel like it. People are always. You know, I see people say, like, oh, yours. You were so selfish, and you left Tyler to take on everything, and I'm glad you were, and yada, yada, yada. But I. My whole thing, too, going into it, though, was like, if I'm not 100 me, I can't even be nothing for my children, let alone my husband or myself. Like, I want to be the best that I can be, you know?

[A]

I think I'm proud of you because I think, in spite of that, like, you were worried about, oh, my God, he's gonna be.

[B]

Oh, God, yeah.

[A]

Burden. And he's gonna feel this, and he's gonna feel that, but you still, like, I. It's worth the risk.

[B]

Like, I had to do it myself.

[A]

Had to do it. I remember. I'm just. I look back like, damn, so did that. Because we wouldn't.

[B]

I had to do it. I. I mean, and believe me, like, it ain't no vacation or walk like a cakewalk when you're at those places. There was lots of tearful nights, tearful days, clinging on to Nova's little stuffed animal all the time. You know what I mean? Like, and because you're working, like, it's very intense and emotionally exhausting. Very. And you're missing your family, and your family can't always come to for visits. And, you know, I was there for Christmas one year. Like, that sucked. Thanksgiving. You know what I mean? Like, it sucked. But I knew I had to do it for myself, so that way I could be 100 me to then show up as a wife and as a mom. And it was scary, but it definitely. It changed my life.

[A]

I think it saved it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I don't know what would have happened.

[B]

And I. I've commented or even, like, said stuff to people before where I'm like, oh, okay, so Nova could have a mom that was gone for, you know, six weeks, 12 weeks. Or she could have a dead mom.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So what's. What's worse?

[A]

Oh, it's true. And that's what I think people don't understand, is that. And also, like, I remember remember telling you that I can't do this anymore. If this is what it's gonna be like, then we just. We're not gonna work.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because there comes a point in time where I have to retreat And I have to figure out my. And I think when you got back from treatment, that's when I felt the freedom to do so. I was like, okay.

[B]

Well, you could tell that I was okay. I was getting my shit.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And then you got back. I'm like, all right, you feel. I feel good. I'm gonna. Now I'm gonna put the back on the front burner.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I. And I think people criticize me a lot for that, which is fine. I mean, they criticize you for leaving.

[B]

The Christmas, of course, but we're always gonna be criticized.

[A]

That's what we're here for. But I remember getting criticized because it was like, oh, you know, now you're gonna do a trial separation. Now you're gonna do all these things. And it wasn't about.

[B]

Which, by the way, he actually spent the night at my house a lot. He couldn't leave. Huh. I was like. I thought we were supposed to be, like, separated, and you're still coming over here every night.

[A]

I can't help it. I couldn't help it.

[B]

I thought that he wants play big bad, you know?

[A]

No, I. Hey, I. No, I fully admit I was a. I could. I didn't do the therapist that I was.

[B]

I mean, you did for a minute.

[A]

The therapist that I was seeing was like, this is what. This is what it's called. And it's called, you know, you just kind of like, you know, just separate.

[B]

The focus on yourself for a little.

[A]

Bit, it feels like. And then I remember going to my therapist after a week of it, and I was like, no, ain't for me. And she's like, well, why? And I'm like, well, because I. I. I said, I don't. I want to be with my wife. I want to be with my kid. I said.

[B]

And I supported it. Like, it was hard for me.

[A]

Yeah, I know.

[B]

And I know it was hard for you too. Like, it was a hard thing, you know, But I feel like. I was like, if you feel like that's something that you need for yourself, then do it.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Because I think that's. I mean, that's what it was required, I think, for me, because I was like, I have to do this or else what am I gonna do? I didn't want to work out. Trial separation was.

[B]

Sounds like he loves me.

[A]

It was an epic fail. I.

[B]

But I do remember there was a part of me, like, when I was at my mom's one time and my friend showed up at my mom's house, and I remember, like, crying And I was like, what if he divorces me? Who's gonna want to be with somebody who has two kids? I was so scared. Remember, I would mess you all time. Like, you're gonna do. No, I remember you're gonna.

[A]

The very first time you ever asked me that, I said, divorce is not even on my radar.

[B]

Yeah. And I was like, that's.

[A]

Yeah. It wasn't even close. I wasn't even thinking about divorcing. I'm thinking about I gotta separate myself from the. And I think it was important for me to do that because when you were gone, I got in robot mode of kind of, like, moderating your depression, making sure Noah was good. And I got in, like, you know, my own dad robotic mode. And I knew that I had to, like, remove myself from it so that way I could, like, look at it from a different person.

[B]

And you deserved the time to. I mean. Yeah. Because me leaving put a lot on your shoulders.

[A]

Yeah. It's hard. I mean, missing and then on top.

[B]

Of it, you know, it's like being a single dad.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, schools and. Yeah.

[A]

Just all of it. And so I knew I needed to get out of it.

[B]

No, it makes sense for your own mental health.

[A]

For a week.

[B]

It was longer than a week, but you would come over and spend the night.

[A]

Yeah. And I remember thinking, feeling guilty. I'm like, I gotta go back to the house because my therapist told me I gotta do this. That's why I feel like I'm breaking the rules. I'm not listening.

[B]

Well, I feel like it's important when you were going through that just to feel like you needed to do whatever was necessary for your own self.

[A]

I look back at now, and it.

[B]

Wasn'T necessary, but maybe it was.

[A]

I don't know. I don't think it was, because I. And I'm not saying don't listen to your therapist. I'm saying follow your intuition. My intuition never told me to do the trial separation. My intuition was saying, then why did you do it? I. Because I, I. I'm not a professional therapist.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And she was talking about all these things, and I'm like, okay, so maybe. Maybe there's things.

[B]

I think your therapist just deep down hated me. Honestly? No, I do. I always got bad vibes from her.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You did. No way.

[B]

Swear. I was like, she is warping his brain.

[A]

Are you serious? I mean, she helped me. Loud Alphas. I mean, she talked.

[B]

No, that stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But some of the scenes and stuff I've seen, I'm like, oh, she hates me. She thinks I'm crazy.

[A]

Wow. I never got okay. I mean, I get. I guess if you're watching it from your Whatever. Okay. Yeah. But I mean, I don't know. All I know is my intuition was saying otherwise, but I knew I had to be logical because I'm not a mental health professional and I could be.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Addicted to you, or I could be whatever the was going on.

[B]

We're trauma.

[A]

Yeah, we're trauma bonded. Oh, my God.

[B]

That's why I'm just a weak ass baby.

[A]

Listen, I'll be honest with you. Everyone out there, if, if, if. If we're trauma bonded, I really highly suggest it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because we.

[B]

And honestly, we have sat down with very, very smart professionals and asked the question if we are trauma bonded and we got the word absolutely not.

[A]

And they also said that everyone. To a point. If you're with someone long enough throughout a period of your life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You will bond over trauma. It won't be the only bond you have.

[B]

No.

[A]

But you go through, like, for instance, growing up and being married for a long time, you know, the spouse's parent dies. That's trauma.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You're gonna bond over that.

[B]

You are. Of course.

[A]

So I think it's interesting when Dr. Mike was like, well, everyone's trauma bonded. And I was like, whoa, whoa, what does that mean? And he's like, well, everyone, he said. What I mean by is that there's a healthy level and there's a toxic level.

[B]

Right.

[A]

He's like. And. But everyone, just like everyone to a point, is codependent.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We have to be, or else all babies would die. We'd all. We all die. So he's like, it just. There's a, There's a spectrum and a level of where it's. Where it's toxic.

[B]

We need to get him on here and talk to us about trauma bonding. So put the.

[A]

Everyone knows.

[B]

To put the record straight.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because he was like, absolutely not. The bad trauma bondage is when you're like abusing each other and be, you know, just very toxic things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's like, okay, so if you're going through something hard and I'm supporting you and loving you and doing good things for you to make you feel better. That's trauma bonded.

[A]

Okay. Okay, well, love it. Yeah. Well, we love each other. I don't know.

[B]

Bring it.

[A]

You call it trauma bond. I call it support and love and I don't know what else to call it.

[B]

I don't. Yeah. I don't understand it.

[A]

Hey, if we're trauma bond, I highly suggest it for people. So, I mean, I've confirmed that we're not because we've got confirmed from multiple people. But hey, I.

[B]

Like I said before, and I'll probably. People hear me probably say it a lot on here is like, well, I sleep good at night next to you, so. And I enjoy our cuddles and our.

[A]

Snuggles, so, you know, we're not abused. And you know what I mean?

[B]

Like, people think I am.

[A]

Well, I. Well, it's like when I. You control all of my things dictating. But people like. It's also. Even with our friends and stuff. I'll see like in here some of their issues in their relationships. And I'm like, whoa. Yeah. They think were like. I mean, like, dude, like, I don't think people understand. We don't fight.

[B]

No, we don't.

[A]

We don't raise our voice. Nothing.

[B]

No. And we've never called each other out of your, like, our name. Yeah.

[A]

It's almost like, kind of weird that, like, I almost like something wrong with us because why are we. It's not. Nothing wrong with us.

[B]

No. I tell you, people.

[A]

Yeah. They. You just don't learn how to communicate. We have done such a good job of like.

[B]

And honey, we've been together for like, what this year will be, what, 18 years?

[A]

Yeah, 18 years.

[B]

Yeah. And we've done a lot of work throughout all of the years, you know, so of course.

[A]

I just think it's interesting though, how it's like, people. Well, every. Every couple fights, and I'm like, that's not true.

[B]

No. I think.

[A]

Do we have you fight? It's how you fight.

[B]

Right. Like, do we have disagreements? Of course. Can we talk about them? Of course.

[A]

But I'm saying, like, I would never consider anything that We've had a fight, in my opinion.

[B]

No, I think the only fight I can ever recall was the one time. Do you remember that?

[A]

Are you thinking of what I'm thinking? I don't know.

[B]

When we lived on Clinton street and.

[A]

You threw the keys in my face.

[B]

Oh, no. I think I was pregnant with Carly at that time, wasn't I? I don't know. The only one I can think of. So. Yeah. Is that one when I threw the keys at your face.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then the other one when we were drinking, though this was before kids or anything.

[A]

Drinking like 20 or something.

[B]

Yeah. And we, like, got in a fight in Ryan Terhune's car. And then I was like, walking down the street, dirt road.

[A]

Always yeah.

[B]

And then you were chasing me. And then we got home. Got home. And then we were arguing about, like, who each followed on Facebook.

[A]

Oh, wow. I don't remember that part. Yeah, I remember the fight. Walking on the dirt road all drunk, trying to catch you like, no, no, let my girlfriend walk down the road. I was like, we gotta get her, dude.

[B]

By the way, we were not drunk driving. We had a drive.

[A]

No. Yeah, he was dry. Yeah, he wasn't. But we were like. I remember saying, like, don't let her walk. I'm walking home. I'm like, dude, we're 50 miles from home in the back roads in the. And started it. I don't know either, but. But yeah, like, we don't. There's. We just don't fight. So I feel like. And I'm saying, like, it's not if you fight, it's how you fight.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I think how we fight, I wouldn't call it fight. But how we disagree is not toxic. It's not.

[B]

No, it's healthy. We have a conversation. We always come up, come to a conclusion. I think me and you are both the same in the sense of like, I would. I cannot go to sleep without having a conversation and coming to a conclusion. Even if that occlusion is like, you can do it, but I just don't agree with it or whatever. But I could not. Can, like, I gotta figure out a solution or else. Right now. Yeah.

[A]

And I think it's important because it's like one of those old cliche things. But don't go to sleep mad at each other. That's a legit thing.

[B]

Well, that's my personality, though. I wouldn't be able to just sit next to you in bed. I'd be like. I'd be like.

[A]

Or like. I notice a lot of, like, people we know, they'll, like, just pretend that nothing ever happened.

[B]

Yeah. Which. That's the worst.

[A]

And that's the worst. I could never deal with that anxiety, the sweeping the.

[B]

Under the rug. It's always going to come back up and bite you, by the way.

[A]

I could not. I couldn't do it.

[B]

Absolutely not. One thing, going back to mental health, though, I do remember my first psych class in college, learning about how if you're going to have a mental illness, it always typically comes before the age of 22 when you will have like a mate like that. That by that time, if you pass 22, it's like way less likely for you to come and have a mental health illness or whatever. And I Remember being so mad that I didn't make it one year. I was like, this is some. It had to be handed to me, right? At 21. I mean, I look at my. Like, my childhood and everything that I went through, adoption, all of that. I'm like, of course. How could I not? But I remember being pissed about that. I'm like, wow, if it would have just waited one year.

[A]

But your panic attack was pretty bad.

[B]

And I don't think people realize that. It literally. I've never experienced anything like that in my life. And then to literally be woken up out of a steep sleep with the. I thought I was having a heart attack. I went to the hospital three times, made him give me EKGs. I didn't know what the Was happening.

[A]

Yeah, it was wild.

[B]

It was a. It was bad. But thankfully, years and years out of it, I do. I'm glad that I went through what I went through because now I'm so freaking self aware. Like, I can tell to a T, like, oh, I need to call my counselor. Or, you know, like, what's that?

[A]

Like, even with something with your mom recently and stuff, you're like, I'm calling.

[B]

Yep, I gotta talk to somebody, process this with somebody.

[A]

And it's kind of crazy because look at the. Look at the polarity. Like, I don't need to come in the bedroom and say, hey, are you okay? Something's wrong with you. You go, I. I'm. Something's wrong with me. I got a call.

[B]

It's all about learning and growth and, you know, learning about what tools you need and all that.

[A]

I'm proud of you.

[B]

Thanks. Well, thank you for being there for me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I love you and for Nova.

[A]

And I love you too much.

[B]

Let's just hope Nova doesn't carry any trauma from that.

[A]

I don't.

[B]

I mean, I hope not.

[A]

I don't know, honey. We're gonna adebly.

[B]

Traumatize or the kids in one way or another. Right.

[A]

Another.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So moving on.

[B]

Yeah. I do have one more thing to say about it, but I don't know.

[A]

What? What do you mean?

[B]

Well, one of my things is what also is, like, up with the world. We talked about postpartum depression and there being no, you know, like, not a lot of things out there for women as far as help when it comes to that. I think another really messed up part is if you do not have money.

[A]

I know.

[B]

And you have a mental health illness, they want you to stay sick. Because the amount of money that I spent out of my own pocket for my mental health is ridiculous. It is, and it's wrong.

[A]

We're the only country that has.

[B]

So they want us. They want the poor to stay sick and poor, and they want the rich to say to sick, stay mentally well and rich enabled. And that's horrible.

[A]

It is.

[B]

Any Joe Smo from the walks of any part of the earth that is struggling with mental health deserves to get help.

[A]

I agree. And it should be covered.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

It's a mental health thing.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

But I think the whole problem is that we have to eventually get to a point where we're looking at it as a real. We need to look at mental health the same way you look at diabetes. Oh, my God. Your diabetes, you diagnose. Okay, great. EpiPen, diet change. Like, you know, you get a treatment plan. Right. We need to literally look at mental health the same exact way. And so it's an illness to incorporate the mental health into the full biology of health issues. You know what I'm saying? Stop separating it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And stop, like, demonizing it. And stop, like, you know, just don't stop. Stop doing that. It's a health problem.

[B]

Yeah. It's because, like I said, Nova could have a dead mom or a mom that had to go somewhere to put in some work.

[A]

Yeah. Or divorced parents who are. Yeah. And that's a whole. Yeah. So it's like.

[B]

And I don't think people realize that, like, I literally was at the point where I was like, I cannot live another day like this. Like, I would rather be dead.

[A]

Yeah. And that's what I was concerned about. I knew something was wrong. I'm like, dude, I. I really. Yeah. I just. Yeah.

[B]

That's not a good feeling.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

Suicide. Suicidal ideation is.

[A]

And I also think it's crazy, too, because I'm just glad that you never had it. Deal with it. Like, watching some X. I think I, like, I think you'd have a hard time if you watch me just, like, completely.

[B]

Just like, oh, my God. Horrible times.

[A]

It's like, because you're. You start. It's hard.

[B]

I'd be doing what you did. I'll be like, all right, we're going here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We're talking to this person.

[A]

Also, it's hard enough to question, is something wrong with me? Oh, remember when I was like, it's gotta be me. I. I gotta be like, you know, you're like, no, Tyler, it's nothing with you. It's me. It's my own. It's my mom. It's my life. It's my Trauma. And I'm like, are you sure? Because you know what I mean? Like, it's hard not to internalize, like, okay, she's just not happy with me or something. You know what I mean?

[B]

Right. It's like, no, I just have a bunch of up here that I can't figure out on my own. Yeah. But I need to figure it out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that should be free. Because there was a few times where I was like, I'm about to go check myself into the loony bin in New Baltimore. You were like, absolutely not.

[A]

Oh, you're not.

[B]

And I'm like, well, I need to go somewhere.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Put me on a. I want, I need a sticky grip sock vacation in the, in the hospital. Put me on a 72 hour old.

[A]

You know, paper dress, sticky sock, padded room vacation.

[B]

That's where I was at. Straight up.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

Tell you what, this sounds good right now. I need a 72 hour hold. No, I'm just kidding. Oh. So I did get some unlicensed advice questions.

[A]

Okay. Unlicensed advice.

[B]

I love it. Okay, so I wrote down four different questions, but one is how do you have a relationship with a toxic parent without getting hurt?

[A]

I would say boundaries is the only, it's the only way to do it because I mean, boundaries. And I think people should understand the difference between boundaries and ultimatums.

[B]

Yeah, you can't give ultimatum.

[A]

They are two different things. And I think people can sometimes like mesh them together and they're not.

[B]

I think it's hard to.

[A]

Well, a boundary is to protect me. An ultimatum is to control somebody else and their actions in their behavior.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's. You can never control somebody else's behavior. Impossible. Can't do it. Waste of time. You're going to drive yourself crazy trying.

[B]

To do something right.

[A]

So, you know, so you can't. You just. First off, get those two things out of your mind where I think people, my boundary is, you don't, you don't stop doing this. I'm going to do this. That. You know, a boundary is not a response to them doing something wrong or bad in spite. Despite. To spite them. It's, it's, it's for yourself. It's to protect yourself. It's, it's. You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah. Like for instance, so with my mom, you know, I had to create boundaries in order to make myself feel comfortable and safe. And my boundaries with her is just don't drink around me and don't drink around my kids. If you're gonna drink, let me know ahead of time. And I'll say, all right, I'll come over, we'll get together next weekend or whatever. I'm not saying you can't ever drink.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, because then that's me trying to control her. It's just so.

[A]

In a way, it's almost like your boundaries, actually more or less like your boundaries to yourself. Like, my boundary is I will leave and remove my. Myself from the situation if I notice her drinking.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's the boundary. Yes, the boundary. It's nothing to do with her, you know, person, personal behavior. It's like, okay, well, boundaries are also really. Nobody can enforce a boundary but you.

[B]

Right.

[A]

The person can't. You. You are the in control of enforcing the boundary or not.

[B]

And make yourself feel powerful in enforcing and doing. Because it can be scary to enforce.

[A]

Your boundaries, especially when you're so used to a certain dynamic.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's hard to break that.

[B]

All gods. Yeah.

[A]

And I remember. It's funny because I remember bringing it up to you, like, years into our relationship where I'm like, you have a. You and your mom have a certain dance you do. And that's the only way I could explain it. I'd watch it happen in real time and come to find out. It was like, you're a dynamic. That's the dynamic you created with your mom. And so it takes one person to stop moving. I'm going to stop dancing.

[B]

Y.

[A]

Another person starts going, whoa, whoa. You missed a step. We got a twirl. What are you doing? You know what I mean? Yeah.

[B]

And you're like, I'm not doing this.

[A]

I'm dancing the right way.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Well, I'm actually just kind of stopping this dance. I'm stopping this dynamic. I'm switching it to something more healthy for me.

[B]

And unfortunately, too, I think to Other advice for this person is, you know, if your parent is not respecting your boundaries, then you might have to step away for a while and just say, like, if it's her still hurting you in a sense, then. And they're not respecting what you asked to make you feel safe, then I think you need to kind of cut ties with that person temporarily or permanently, just. Or whatever feels right to you. Yeah. And kind of reevaluate after the fact.

[A]

Yeah, I agree.

[B]

Okay. I have another. Another one that said, how do I talk to my partner about not being satisfied in the bedroom without hurting them?

[A]

I would just. First of all, I'd be honest. You have to be honest and communicate.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, I think going into it with the intention of Trying not to hurt their feelings is going to be messy.

[B]

Right. And just go into. Maybe go into it in the fact of, like, we're going to make our sex life fire.

[A]

Yeah. Like, going to. It being like, my goal is to make this amazing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Not to criticize you, not to judge you, not to make you feel like about yourself. It's so literally just. I'm trying to get the best out of this.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I.

[B]

Because it is hard. I can understand.

[A]

I get it. Yeah. Especially if it has something to do with them.

[B]

Like, and this was a female.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Talking about a male.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. So I can get where she's like, I don't, you know, I don't want to hurt his feelings or make him feel like.

[A]

I guess. I guess. I guess my thing is, though, is that you can't worry about hurting his feelings. You first need to just ask yourself, what do I want? What do I need? What am I missing? And then you fill in the gaps. You don't need to tell them why you're. Well, it's like, just. Just, okay, this is what I want. This is what I need. And then my whole thing is that, like, it's completely a possibility that what you want or what you need, he can't do. Okay. And that is something that I think people need to, like, get comfortable with.

[B]

Because then what do you do?

[A]

It's a whole different.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Right, Right. So we gotta first establish this is what I need. Can you provide yes or no?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Right. And then I think asking yourself the question to yourself first before asking him, I need this. And it's like, well, he can't do that. You know what I'm saying? Like, and then kind of, like, kind of prioritizing it in your own head before coming to him and saying it. Because that by. If you do it to yourself in your head, you can go, okay. Oh, but you know, that could help. And so I definitely think don't approach him without having your own solution. But I thought about it, what I want and what I need, and here's a solution. You know what I mean? And that I thought of. Do you have any solutions? Is there anything I can do? Also I think reciprocating, like, hey, I'm gonna tell you what I wish you could do better or what I'm missing or what I need, and then invite him to do the same exact thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To say what? Okay.

[B]

Because there might be things he's not telling you.

[A]

Exactly. And they're. And that's what's kind of creating this weird. Like, oh, just say nothing because I want to hurt your feelings. I don't want to hurt your feelings. And it's like, well, you know, what if we're in this for a long haul? I've always said this. I'm not afraid to hurt your feelings. I can apologize later on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If it happens. But we got to get to the nitty gritty.

[B]

Well, you got to be real and.

[A]

Talk to each other, because me and you are a firm believer that that is one of the pinnacles.

[B]

You have to be honest.

[A]

Have to be honest. You have to communicate and. And you have to have a healthy sex life. It's. It's.

[B]

Yeah, it's.

[A]

That's it.

[B]

I mean, and like, when. So when I saw her question, I was like, how? Well, like, what would I do in that situation?

[A]

Yeah, what would you do?

[B]

I was thinking, like, all right, if I was in that situation, like, when we were getting it on, I'd be like, oh, like, talk. Even in that sense when it's happening, like, oh, when you do this, it feels really good.

[A]

Right. You know, do that again. Or that was really. That was really great.

[B]

Or, oh, that hurt. Don't do that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You know, because it's. You don't have to be like, silence.

[A]

Right. Right.

[B]

It's like quiet in the middle of being intimate. Like, speak about what feels good, what doesn't feel good.

[A]

I think sometimes it's also better because you're. You're in the moment. It's organic.

[B]

You're not.

[A]

Like, you don't have time to go, oh, man. All right, she didn't like that last night.

[B]

Right. So maybe that's what I'm saying. If you don't want to hurt his feelings, like, oh, when you do this, this. That feels amazing. Or when you do. When you do this, that out. No, that hurts.

[A]

Or I don't like that. That's right.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm thinking about, oh, my God. I don't know. If we're in the middle of doing something, you're like, ew, don't do that. But.

[B]

Well, you don't say like that. You say, ah, Nah, that hurts.

[A]

You're talking about pain. I know. Not every girl's getting hurt saying, is that, like, if it's not having to do with pain, and you're just like.

[B]

Oh, I don't really. Like, I don't like that.

[A]

Because what if in the middle of role reverse on the middle, I'm like, you don't don't do. Or I won't say ill. Yeah. Why would you say you do that?

[B]

Okay, I think we have said that before.

[A]

I've said that to you.

[B]

I think I've said that to you before.

[A]

Because you're thinking of pain, though. Don't do. Oh, yeah, you know, you got to get. Okay. I'm thinking of, like, not everybody's in pain. So what I'm saying is that if I. Vice versa, you don't hurt me. Besides, when you had the iud, but if I said something like, don't do that, that wasn't hot, that I didn't.

[B]

Like that at all, I guess I would have to lead you into conversation. Why? Yeah, why don't you stop?

[A]

What?

[B]

Yeah, why. Why don't you like that?

[A]

Maybe that's what needs to happen. How about everyone just. You know what? Hey, whoa. Let's just.

[B]

Okay, so there needs to be some honest communication happening.

[A]

Communication. And I think, listen, you don't always have to use words spoken. You can write it in a note, you can text it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And everyone feels safer. Just communicate in the safest way for you. But I also think, like, talk about your needs and wants and then come up with your own solutions or. Or at least for you, a solution. Yeah, because I'm telling you right now, I think even man, woman, if I tell you I don't like that, and then you go, what. What should I do? And I go, I don't know. But I don't like that.

[B]

Yeah, it does not.

[A]

You know what I'm saying? Like, so figure out what your own solution could be. So that way you have options to, like.

[B]

Well, so that way you have a very productive conversation about the issue.

[A]

Could you imagine? I was like, I don't like to do that. And you're like, what should I do different? I'm like, I don't know. Don't do that.

[B]

I'd be like, oh, yeah, not help me at all. So I'm not doing it right. But then you don't know what I.

[A]

Need that needs to happen. It's interesting that you bring that up, because one of the things I kept seeing from our Instagram was the. The frequency. Like, I think with me, when me say the relationship advice, I. A lot of it's sexual. Like, a lot of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, has to do with a huge part of a relationship, which I think reiterates my point that I think it's one of the number one pinnacles thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's like, if. I mean, what's the frequency. Some people are like, oh, I don't, I don't want it more than once or twice a week. Some people like, I want it four times a week. And it's like, that's also an important conversation. I also think there are therapists that are specifically.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For this issue.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sex therapists will probably open up all the doors you need to be opened in a safe and then you have.

[B]

A mediator where you don't have to feel like you're hurting his feelings or something.

[A]

You know, you talk to a therapist outside like, this is my problem. Okay. We can deliver that in a way.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That protects everybody.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's great. So boom.

[B]

No, that's even something to look into.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All right. So the last one that I thought was, I thought it was good. And obviously this person is wanting to go about this the right way. I wasn't really. It's kind of a hard one for me. But they said I'm wanting to adopt. But we are struggling with trying to find the most ethical options. In your opinion, do you think there's any ethical adoption?

[A]

I don't necessarily think there is an ethical way to adopt that is completely fully child centered unless all parties are trauma informed people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That means the adopted parents, the birth parents and whatever. Like they both need to be very trauma informed about what adopted's experience. My opinion, I don't think infant adoption is ethical. I just don't. I think foster care adoption is very ethical because you're going, you're already going to children in a crisis who need help. They need help. They're already born, they're already here, they're already suffering. Really. The foster care system is full of children.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, yearning for that. So I think the question is, what do you seek to get out of adoption? Do you seek to be a mom to a newborn baby and be able to raise the baby from a baby to an adult?

[B]

Because that's what I shouldn't.

[A]

If. So I don't think you should adopt because no baby is a blank slate. You don't just get a baby from separated from its mother and has maternal separation trauma and preverbal trauma and stuff like that. And it's a blank slate and try.

[B]

To make it your all not.

[A]

It's not gonna happen. And that's an unfortunate thing. I think if you're struggling with infertility that you should, you should go and heal or at least start the process of dissecting that infertility trauma way before you adopt, way before even Thinking about it, and if it comes to the point where you do want to adopt, I highly suggest the next step is through foster care. I don't think private infant adoption is ethical in any way that I can find out there.

[B]

So yesterday I was speaking on a live with a few adoptees that we talked to. I was on live with them. And then also this birth mom on there or not this birth mom, this adoptive mom that's on there, and her herself, she said, you know, she adopted her son. It was through like foster care stuff. But she even said in turn if she could go back, she would even do things differently. And she said, I would do like a legal permanent guardianship. She said, because then his birth certificate would have stayed the same, a lot of his rights would have stayed the same. But I still would be considered like a parent to be able to make all the decisions for him. But. And I was like, wow, that was very shocking to me. And I was like, I'm very proud of you for saying that. Because even she, you know, and she has a very open adoption. And so.

[A]

Yeah, I know what you're talking about. She actually said that, that she was not trauma informed when she first adopted and that she learned. So I had to really learn as an adoptive mom. I had to break down my own stereotypes I built in my head. And she's like, I used to justify some of the decisions I made. I used to justify my desire to be a mom by minimizing or pretty much avoiding the fact that it was trauma based. Yeah, you don't, you don't have adoption without trauma.

[B]

Right. And so I thought it was interesting, this person that wrote, she's like, she's not finding any ethical options. And it's like.

[A]

Because there's not. No, there's not any ethical options. That's why when we're talking about infant adoption, we're talking about the adoption's not necessary. Kinship adoption. Aunts, uncles, somewhere grandma, filial. Yeah, anything. That's the first option. I think if a birth mom is in a situation where it's a crisis and she can't do this and it's.

[B]

Not actually first option should be like resources.

[A]

Well, of course. No, no, right option.

[B]

Yeah. It would be like kinship adoption.

[A]

Kinship adoption and guardianship. I even know, like the word, using the word adoption, like the guardianship is a really. It's the same thing. So I think, I think all prospective adoptive parents ask yourself, what is my intention for doing this? Is it to help children?

[B]

Right. Or is it just to become A.

[A]

Parent, become a parent because your infertility trauma does not make you entitled to anyone else's baby. And you can, you can't justify that desire by saying, I'm saving the kid, I'm helping you.

[B]

That's gross.

[A]

Don't ever say, don't ever say you're not. No. That's disturbing. Adoptees don't like that.

[B]

And then it also just reiterates what adoptees think like, oh, they saved me and I need to be grateful.

[A]

I shouldn't want to find my birth family.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I shouldn't be having these issues, identity crisis that I'm having because I should be grateful and take care of. And that's just not something you do. So I think any prospective adoptive parents read the Primal Wound, talk to a therapist about your infertility trauma or what, or why you can't have or start.

[B]

The process of it. Yeah. Or got to be very painful.

[A]

Yes. I know that there are some people who, they just grow up and go, I don't want to have my own natural kids. I just want to adopt. Okay. If you want to do that. Foster care, right. Help the children who really need it and are already born, or be like.

[B]

A very great foster parent to help their exact biological family get on their feet and do the parenting.

[A]

Classic care is designed for reunification Right. With the biological family. And that's why.

[B]

Because we know that that's best, that.

[A]

We know it's best. There's data out there. So just don't go into this blindly and also don't go into it selfishly. I know you want to be a parent. I understand that. And I think you're trauma about not being able to be one is valid and it's real. However, that is your responsibility to figure out. And it is not the responsibility of an innocent child to fulfill that hole.

[B]

Or that no choice who had no.

[A]

Choice to rob them of their biological identity, etc etc to. To fill this void that you have because you can't have your own children.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's not fair. That's not child centered. If you adopt, it needs to be child centered, period, all the way around.

[B]

Beautiful. I think so too. Yeah. Because my first thought to her question, I was like, well, permanent legal guardianship.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That's the only way that I see it being ethical because then that gives the birth parents some rights too and some protection. And also the child.

[A]

The child. And you still have guardianship. You still can make all the legal decisions.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

It's primary custodial. I mean, yes, forever. There's no difference.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Adoption is literally just strip them of everything. It's illegal transfer. Yeah. That's all it is. Like, it's literally there's nothing else to it. So.

[B]

So that was my thing that came to my mind, but. All right, guys. Well, thank you so much for joining us and listening to this episode. Make sure you like and follow everywhere that you can listen to podcasts and we just again, appreciate all the love and the support that we've received. And it's been fun.

[A]

We love it. So subscribe, like, share, comment, whatever you.

[B]

Give us all the love. Give us all the love.

[A]

We need it.

[B]

All right, we'll talk to you guys next week. Have a good one. Bye.

[A]

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