Who Is Adoption Really For? Alé Cardinalle's International Adoption Experience

Summary

Podcast Summary: Cate & Ty Break It Down – "Who Is Adoption Really For? Alé Cardinalle's International Adoption Experience"

Introduction

In the April 30, 2025 episode of Cate & Ty Break It Down, hosts Catelynn (Kate) and Tyler (Ty) Baltierra delve into the intricate world of adoption with special guest Alé Cardinali. Alé, an international adoptee from Brazil, shares her profound journey of discovery, emotional challenges, and eventual reunion with her biological family. This episode offers listeners an intimate look into the complexities of adoption, emphasizing the personal growth and advocacy needed to support adoptees effectively.

Alé's Adoption Story

Alé Cardinali opens up about her adoption experience, providing a heartfelt narrative of being adopted from Brazil at four months old by an Italian-American couple from New Jersey. She describes the adoption as entirely closed, even to herself, until she pieced together the truth around the age of 11 or 12.

[01:23] Alé: "I was adopted from Brazil when I was 4 months old by a New Jersey Italian American couple."

Alé discusses how subtle inconsistencies in her family’s stories about her birth and lack of photographs made her intuitively suspect her adoption long before it was confirmed.

[02:03] Alé: "My body remembered, my soul remembered."

Discovering Adoption

The moment Alé confronted her adoptive mother was both shocking and liberating. She recalls asking her mother about her adoption directly, leading to a deeply emotional revelation.

[04:07] Alé: "It was just a knowing. Yes. Completely, completely intuitive."

Despite the loving environment, Alé felt a persistent sense of difference and struggled with issues like making friends, attention disorders, and depression, which she later connected to her adoption trauma.

Emotional Impact and Trauma

Alé candidly discusses the mental health challenges she faced, which were initially misdiagnosed or misunderstood. It wasn’t until she engaged in neurofeedback therapy that she began to understand the root of her struggles.

[18:36] Alé: "It's like, nothing is wrong with you. Something happened to you."

Her journey highlights the often-overlooked aspect of adoption trauma, even in seemingly "successful" adoptions where love and support are abundant.

Reunion with Biological Family

A pivotal moment in the episode is Alé’s reunion with her biological mother. Through a series of fortunate events facilitated by mutual connections, Alé reconnected with her biological family after 28 years. She describes the overwhelming emotions and the profound sense of belonging that came with meeting her biological relatives.

[29:00] Alé: "They answered me like, they needed her permission. And that's another story."

The reunion was bittersweet, blending joy with the complexities of integrating into a new family dynamic across different cultures and languages.

Current Perspective and Advocacy

Now a mother herself, Alé emphasizes the importance of centering the adoptee’s needs in any adoption process. She advocates for more open and meaningful connections between adoptees and their biological families, criticizing the commodification of adoption within the industry.

[56:56] Alé: "We need to center the child in all aspects."

Alé also addresses systemic issues such as the lack of access to medical information and the challenges faced by international adoptees, urging for comprehensive reforms to support adoptees better.

Conclusion

The episode concludes with Alé encouraging listeners to educate themselves about the history and systemic flaws in adoption practices. She highlights resources like the Criminal podcast’s episode on Georgia Tann and the book Baby Thief to deepen understanding.

[70:33] Alé: "Learn about Georgia Tann. I really recommend the episode of Criminal with Phoebe Judge."

Alé’s participation in the podcast underscores the necessity of amplifying adoptee voices and fostering open, honest conversations to drive meaningful change in adoption practices.

Notable Quotes

• [01:23] Alé: "I was adopted from Brazil when I was 4 months old by a New Jersey Italian American couple."
• [02:03] Alé: "My body remembered, my soul remembered."
• [18:36] Alé: "It's like, nothing is wrong with you. Something happened to you."
• [29:00] Alé: "They answered me like, they needed her permission. And that's another story."
• [56:56] Alé: "We need to center the child in all aspects."
• [70:33] Alé: "Learn about Georgia Tann. I really recommend the episode of Criminal with Phoebe Judge."

Key Takeaways

1. Personal Journey: Alé’s story exemplifies the deep emotional and psychological impacts of adoption, even in supportive environments.
2. Reunion Dynamics: Reconnecting with biological family can be both fulfilling and challenging, requiring careful navigation of cultural and emotional landscapes.
3. Advocacy Needs: There is a critical need for systemic reforms in the adoption industry to prioritize adoptees’ well-being and rights.
4. Education and Awareness: Educating the public about the complexities of adoption history and practices is essential for fostering a more supportive environment for adoptees.

Final Thoughts

Alé Cardinali’s candid and poignant recounting of her adoption experience offers invaluable insights into the multifaceted nature of adoption. Cate & Ty Break It Down successfully highlights the importance of understanding and addressing the unique challenges faced by adoptees, advocating for a more empathetic and informed approach within the adoption community.

Transcript

[Ally Cardinali]

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[Kate]

Okay, well, welcome back to Kate and Ty Break It Down. In this episode, we have Ally Cardinali. Okay. Is it Ally? Okay. It's just Al. Okay. And she is on TikTok. And we. That's how we connected originally. You are an adoptee.

[Ally Cardinali]

I am.

[Kate]

And so for people who don't know, like, open adoption, closed adoption, how are you involved in adoption at all?

[Ally Cardinali]

Okay, well, I'll go right in. So I am an international adoptee. I was adopted from Brazil when I was 4 months old by a New Jersey Italian American couple. And so my adoption was completely closed, even to myself, because I was around 11 or 12 when I kind of put the pieces of my puzzle together. And I asked my mom, my adoptive mom, am I adopted? And she said, yes. Wow.

[Kate]

And how did you. You just had a feeling that you were, or so.

[Ally Cardinali]

So I like to say it like this. My, my. I didn't have a conscious memory of it, but my body remembered, my soul remembered. And there was a few times in my childhood my mom talks about this story that I was like in the bathtub and I just said, I'm adopted. Right. And she was just frozen. Wow. But how I ultimately put the pieces together was my parents have three other daughters who are their biological children. My sister Toniel is five years older than me and she has cerebral palsy, which was due to a complication at birth. So obviously we heard Tonielle's birth story all the time.

[Ty]

Yeah.

[Ally Cardinali]

And then my younger sisters are about two years younger than me and they were conceived through IVF.

[Ty]

Okay.

[Ally Cardinali]

So we heard. And that was like 35 years ago. So it was like in the infancy of ivf. So that was a really exciting birth story. And then there was me, Ali, that she stands alone. And there was like nothing interesting or cool about how I was born, but. But also there was my mom Was pregnant with twins. So she talk about how her, like, big her belly was and how it almost touched that, like, if she stood in the doorway, it would almost touch. And. And I was, like, thinking and thinking, and I was like, there's no pictures of her pregnant with me, and she doesn't talk about being pregnant with me. Not only that is I had a Brazilian passport, so I knew I was born in Brazil. And so I was. And I had to travel with a green card because another story, I didn't have automatic citizenship as an adoptee, so I had. I was a naturalized citizen at 13 years old. But that's like the sidebar, which is a huge other issue in adoption.

[Kate]

I'm like, whoa, you're not. You're not a citizen. You had your green card. Like, what?

[Ally Cardinali]

Yeah, so. So anyway, I had to travel with the passport and. And the green card. No. No pictures, no birth story. Why were you going to Brazil if you were so pregnant? And. But more, I can't stress enough more than all of those facts, like, it was just a knowing. It was just a knowing. Yes. Completely, completely intuitive. And the only way that I can explain it is it happened to my body and it happened to my soul. And obviously, I was a newborn baby. It was pre. Verbal memories. But I. I knew. I actually told all my friends at school before it was confirmed. I'm like, I'm adopted. And I was so sure. And what happened was I was one of those kids, I like to eat lunch with the guidance counselor.

[Kate]

I know those kids.

[Ally Cardinali]

So shout out to Dr. Palucci. And so I was telling Dr. Palucci, like, I'm adopted, and he called my mom. So I guess my mom knew the question was coming. So. Yeah. So my adoption, like it said, was very much closed, even to myself.

[Ty]

Wow.

[Kate]

So how so when. Obviously when you asked, like, and she said, yeah, you are. I mean, what was. How did you feel then?

[Ally Cardinali]

So remember, I'm 11 or 12.

[Kate]

Right.

[Ally Cardinali]

Right. I thought I was like, now I have this cool thing to tell people. And so, you know, I. I'll never forget the day after my mom let me stay home and she took me to the mall, and, like, I just got to spend the day with her. And so what was difficult was they asked me not to tell anybody. Yeah.

[Kate]

At 11.

[Ally Cardinali]

Yeah. I was in the sixth grade. So. Yeah. And the. The line that I, you know, that I was given is, you're our daughter, and it's none of anybody else's business, you know, that you're an adopted person and we love you. Like, you. You're our own daughter, and that's it. End of story. And so what wound up happening to me was over the years, at first, I'm, like, a little bit thrilled because, like I told you, my. My siblings had, like, interesting things about their. How they came into the world, and now I have one too. Right. But as the years went on and I felt that if I even mentioned that I was adopted or had questions about who I was and where I came from, that it would be upsetting to them or I would be betraying them because I was their daughter, no different than their other biological children, period. End of story. Which I'll tell you that, like, in our. I never feel like the adopted one.

[Ty]

Like, that was gonna be my next question. Like, them having biological children, you never felt differently?

[Ally Cardinali]

Not at. Not. No. And I. I mean, and there's, like, privilege in that, too, because I'm white and they're white, and I mean, they're Italian American and I'm Brazilian, but I. It's not like I'm a different race, that I stick out, you know, like a thumb or they're all redheads or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, and that's. I just want to acknowledge that that's a huge part of it. You know, you see people who are transracially adopted, and, you know, they're getting on a plane together, and I can only imagine for a kid that looks so genetically different than their family, always sticking out like that. But, no, I didn't. I always felt a part of. But I will say a lot of the way that I process information, the way I felt about the world, the way that I saw things, even down to, like, how affectionate I am, that was different. There was differences. I always felt, like, loved and belonging, but I also did feel very different, and I was very different. And I guess we can get into the different experiences I was having because I came to their family by adoption. So even though they loved me the same and they treated me the same, I needed to be treated differently because I had different needs, a different experience. And so I love my adoptive parents. My mom has wished me good luck today, like, several times. They are so supportive, but they didn't know what they didn't know at the time.

[Ty]

Right.

[Ally Cardinali]

And so I had. I had this loss and my questions answered. I don't know how things would have been different for me. And we can talk, if you'd like, about how I struggled. Absolutely.

[Ty]

I mean, yeah, that's kind of where.

[Ally Cardinali]

The whole point of this, right. So I just also want to say for me, when I talk about my story, I get kind of nervous because as you've seen, when we do tell our stories, we're dismissed. And one thing people like to say is, well, I'm sorry you had a bad experience. And I most likely had a above average experience. My parents and my sisters, like, like I said, I always felt loved and a part of my parents were able to provide me with a very privileged life. When you think about people say, oh, you know, you choose adoption to give your biological child a better life. I had all the ingredients and then some of a better life. Right. A great education, access to medical care. I was able to go to any college that I was able to get into if I wanted. I'm, you know, pretty well traveled. You know, people I don't know, it always comes back to on social media, like you wouldn't have got to go to Disney World, stupid shit like that. And so on paper I have like the dream scenario, like I won the lottery. But love was not enough. All those opportunities and privileges were not enough to erase the foundation on which my brain developed, which was being separated from my biological mother. And so I am happy to share my story and I think my story is important, but it's not a one off experience. I didn't have a bad experience. And how many adoptees have to have a bad experience for the culture and society to start asking questions and caring that so many of us are having what they say is a bad experience? But in my early childhood, before I knew that I was adopted for sure, like confirmed. I had so much trouble making friends and relating, relating to my peers. I probably had major depression as a child. I was in therapy at 8 years old, still not talking about adoption. Right, right. And always being. Almost every year I remember being evaluated by the child study team for add, adhd, mostly add. Like I had so much trouble staying on task, staying organizing, staying organized, finishing something through by every year not given any kind of diagnosis or anything. And you know, through my teenage years and my adolescence, like it like I was just mentally ill, like anxiety and depression, turning to emotional eating, you know, maybe problematic drinking and other, you know, experimentation and just like risky behavior, you know. And then I started to, you know, want to talk about being adopted and I just was so hesitant to because I didn't want to hurt my adoptive parents, my parents feelings.

[Ty]

But did you eventually start talking to your parents about it?

[Ally Cardinali]

So, okay, I had my like my trauma. It was always like run of the mill Adoption. I mean, anxiety and depression. And then at one point, I. You know, a relationship in my life ended. And, like, hindsight is, you know, 2020, but it just, like, it broke me. I had. Caitlin, I heard you on a clip. You said, like, about grippy sock vacays. Me too, girl. I had, you know, in my early adulthood, a few grippy sock vacays. And just remember the beautiful, privileged life that my adoptive parents provided me. And that didn't save me. And I had therapy. Right. I was in therapy, and it didn't save me. And I had a wonderful therapist shout out to Renee Altman, wherever you are out there. Who. It was in Florida, the treatment center I was in, were from New Jersey, and she had my parents fly in, and she's like, we're gonna talk about this. Good, good. And. And it was. Oh, it was the first time in my whole life that we had a conversation. My dad. And if you knew my dad, you would like my dad crying. And I, like. I guess he was holding stuff in for all of these. All of these years. And, you know, it's not like we had a couple floors. Family sessions, and everything was perfect, but it was a huge difference that, like, I was afraid to even, like, mention that I was adopted.

[Ty]

So it was. It set up, like, the. The path moving forward of being able to continue talking about it and working.

[Ally Cardinali]

Exactly, exactly. And it was a very, like, pivotal moment in the relationship I had with my. With my parents. And. And, you know, I know a lot of teenage girls, not to generalize, but, like, what I've seen, like, adolescent years with our mothers can be quite volatile. And I feel like mine was, like, I was so horrible to her, and it was like, just knocking heads and knocking heads and knocking heads. And this was like. It just opened a door for such a softer, more understanding relationship where I felt safe to, like I said, just even mention the fact, like, I wasn't, you know, I never lived in that womb.

[Ty]

Right, right, right.

[Kate]

And so that obviously kind of created a shift. Like, you exactly sense the shift in your relationship with. Dynamic, with your. With your mom.

[Ally Cardinali]

Exactly.

[Ty]

Which is both of us, it sounds like.

[Kate]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ally Cardinali]

Well, so let me, like, backtrack a little bit, because question a lot of people have is, like, why the hell did they not tell you that I was adopted?

[Ty]

Yeah.

[Ally Cardinali]

Yeah. And their reason is that they say is that, you know, because they had biological children, that they didn't want me to feel any different, and they would never treat me any different than they're my sisters.

[Ty]

Do you Think they regret that decision now? Like, not just raising you, always knowing they better. Right?

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Ty]

Like, do they regret, you know, have they ever said that they regret not telling you sooner or raising you, just knowing?

[Ally Cardinali]

I, you know, I think that if they could go back, that they would make different decisions. But, like, it was really. Yeah, it was really my dad, and that's like kind of the culture he came from. Like, Italian American culture. Like, family secrets is, like, a thing, but also, I mean, who knows what insecurities, like, laid beneath the surface. But I do believe that it was genuine, that they never wanted me to feel any different or that I was any different. And I think that part came from a deep place of love, though. A misguided decision.

[Kate]

Right.

[Ally Cardinali]

And then I'm sure there's, like, other stuff too. Right. This is all very nuanced.

[Kate]

But you're saying as an adoptee, though, that might not have been the best. Like, you know, their intention was pure to, like, want you to feel like, you know, no different from your siblings. But you're saying as an adoptee, I was different. Yeah, you were. So you're saying you actually, you know, there's any adoptive parents listening like that. Like, as an adoptee, it's like, well, that I wish you would have almost, like, I was different.

[Ally Cardinali]

Right.

[Kate]

To acknowledge it and just to have it be right.

[Ally Cardinali]

I like to say is we don't come into a family the same way that biological children do. We have. We all have pass. We know that all adoption starts with loss. We have biological family, like, apart from parents, grandparents, siblings.

[Ty]

And it's different all around. It's all different.

[Ally Cardinali]

Right. And like, I. Like, we know now that, like, even for newborns with, you know, pre. Pre verbal memories, we know that separating a newborn from their mother is trauma. And that trauma, you know, a lot of adoptees will say that they don't have trauma. And to that I will say, I'm never gonna tell you that you do if you don't. And if you asked me at a certain point, do you have adoption trauma? I would have been like, that's not that. There's no such thing as that. And it took me a very long time and therapy to connect all the difficulties that I was having to my adoption. So what wound up happening, which I think is really interesting, is I was getting a mental health treatment called neurofeedback, which was like, have you heard of it?

[Kate]

No.

[Ty]

Yeah, but describe it for listeners.

[Ally Cardinali]

Okay, so, I mean, I'm not an expert.

[Ty]

Well, no, but. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But but what you experienced.

[Ally Cardinali]

So, yeah, it starts with doing, like, a brain map where they put, like, all this gooey stuff in your hair and, like, a cap, and they do what they call, like, a brain map, their brain mapping. And they. And so it's like a kind of therapy that uses, like, brain waves, and it can be a treatment for anxiety, depression, and add. So, again, I have all of these symptoms of add, right. Like, through my childhood, through my adulthood, like, always, like, running behind. I don't know where my keys are. And. And. But also with this anxiety and depression piece. And. And like I mentioned before, was never definitely diagnosed with major depression and anxiety. But anyway, so I did this neurofeedback where they. The. The guy reads my brain map and he. And I'm there for add, Right. This was a recommendation by my therapist. And he sits me down and he goes, what happened to you?

[Ty]

Wow.

[Ally Cardinali]

And I was like, what do you mean? He was like, you. Your scan came back as if you were, like, a Vietnam veteran. Wow. And I was like, I had a great life.

[Kate]

I had a. Yeah, but I was adopted.

[Ally Cardinali]

I was adopted.

[Kate]

Wow.

[Ally Cardinali]

I was adopted. And that's, you know, that was like, my first step, you know, out of the fog and realizing, you know, that adoption is much more complicated and we are led to understand.

[Kate]

And how old are you when this happened?

[Ally Cardinali]

I was thinking my mid-20s.

[Kate]

Okay.

[Ally Cardinali]

Okay. And, yeah, so. So that was another really, really big, pivotal moment. But it was just like a first step to looking things. Looking at things a little bit differently.

[Kate]

So is that hard to, like. I mean, I'm assuming if you're. I'm here for ADD and all these.

[Ty]

Things, and then that's intense.

[Kate]

I mean, that's really intense for someone to say that you have, like, a.

[Ty]

Brain that looks like somebody of a Vietnam vet.

[Ally Cardinali]

Yeah.

[Ty]

Like, wow.

[Ally Cardinali]

Yeah. Well, it was really hard. And it was also really validating.

[Ty]

Yeah.

[Ally Cardinali]

Because. Because through, you know, my childhood and. And my teenage years and even into my early adulthood, it's like, you have everything. What the fuck is wrong with you? Why can't you get this shit together? You need therapy. You go see a therapist. You want to get another degree, go do it. You. You need psychiatry, medication. And I was like, why can't you get this shit together? Why does this keep happening to you? And so it was the first time in my life where I was like, nothing is wrong with you. Something happened to you.

[Kate]

Right?

[Ally Cardinali]

Something happened to you, and you are reacting in turn. And so, yes, it was hard. And, yes, it was like a Lot to digest, but it was also really, really validating.

[Ty]

Well, it taught you not to hate so much on yourself. And, like, why can't I get myself out of this? But no, it's not me. It's because something happened to me.

[Ally Cardinali]

Right, right.

[Kate]

Which. That's the trauma part. I mean, that's what people I think who aren't familiar with or even want to acknowledge that adoption is trauma. That. I mean, that's the first. I mean, brain mapping is. I mean, that's that.

[Ally Cardinali]

Right?

[Kate]

You can't get really any more clear evidence than that. And I think that it's important for people to kind of like, you know, understand that, like, when you're saying that was a pivotal moment for you, kind of like getting out of the fog. And when did you first, like, hear about the fog or when did you, like.

[Ally Cardinali]

Okay, yeah, so. So at that point, I kind of understood that adoption was trauma. And then a little around the same. Oh, there's so much that was happening. Okay, let's. So we went from not being able to even mention that I was adopted to it being okay to talk about. And now it's been years. Right? So it was around my 28th birthday. And this is gonna sound judge me if you want, but my mom had this masseuse that was also a spiritual medium.

[Kate]

Oh, wow.

[Ally Cardinali]

And so for my birthday, I asked for a gift certificate to go see her. And I was like, maybe. Maybe she'll connect me to somebody I am biologically related to on, you know, this afterlife realm.

[Kate]

Metaphysical. Yeah.

[Ty]

Hey, I love that shit. I'm not judging. Totally into it.

[Ally Cardinali]

And so my sister Chongyeo, my oldest sister, she. She doesn't communicate through speech. She's non verbal, but she uses very savvy on the computer, so she communicates that way. So she hears me and she starts laughing, I guess rightfully so. And screaming that, like, she's like. I don't know how to make this a concise story, but let me just explain to you how I was adopted. I'm going to take, like, another turn here how, like, Lucy and Tony from New Jersey got this Brazilian baby.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Ty]

Okay.

[Ally Cardinali]

Okay. So my sister had a lot of high needs, so they hired this woman named Anna who. A Brazilian woman named Anna to help with. With, you know, a nanny helper, caregiver position. And my parents were having trouble conceiving and they were, you know, poking around adoption and nothing was, like, lining up. And Anna overheard, you know, some conversations and she's like, I don't want to overstep or anything. But my brother and sister in law are OB GYNs in Brazil. Okay. So it's like I'll never know the whole real story. And you know, that's a piece that I've come with. But so from what I know and what I understand, there was a patient of Anna's sister in law, Jazani, who lives in Brazil, who's an ob GYN in Brazil, who has this patient that is placing their child for adoption. Now, Brazil is not a country that allows international adoption. Like I'm another cheese stands alone here because I, very active in the community, have never met another American person like an adoptee that was adopted from. I've met Brazilian adoptees, but they were adopted by a Brazilian families. But anyway, so my mom flies to Brazil with like a little yellow. 37 years ago, maybe the 37 years ago, with this little like word to word dictionary and like petitions a judge to allow her to adopt me. Wow. Yeah. My mom's a badass. I was going to say.

[Kate]

She, she had a mission. She was there. Yeah.

[Ally Cardinali]

Yeah. And so.

[Ty]

So she shows up to Brazil with this little book.

[Ally Cardinali]

Yes. And so she becomes friends with Jazani. She's staying in Jazani's house. And. And so she had to do a couple of trips and ultimately came back with my dad. And then it took four months after my birth for the adoption to actually be finalized. Hiring lawyers, potential petitioning, the judge going back with this little tiny Portuguese to English dictionary. And so in that four months, I was living with Gijani, the doctor, my biological mother's ob gyn.

[Ty]

Wow.

[Ally Cardinali]

It's very different story than, you know, it's not a typical route to adoption.

[Kate]

So the doctor was taking care of you as a baby at his house or. She was.

[Ally Cardinali]

She was. Okay, her and her husband.

[Kate]

Okay, her and her husband. Got it. Yeah, for four months. That's.

[Ally Cardinali]

Yeah, for four months. And you know, now that I'm a mom and I see like somebody at 4 months old, like, whatever. That's a whole nother thing.

[Ty]

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[Ally Cardinali]

So now you have some context. So now I'm in the kitchen telling my mom, like, can you buy me this gift certificate so I can connect with my dead biological relatives? Antonio, my nonverbal sister, is, like, wailing, like, screaming, and I'm. And she, like, types out that she's friends with Anna on Facebook. Like, you don't have to find your biological family, like, through. So she's like, let's send Anna a message and see if she can get you in touch with Jazani, the doctor and maybe Jenny. It's a very small community. Maybe she can connect you with your biological mom. So we find Anna on Facebook. We find Jesani on Facebook. She. None of them will answer me.

[Kate]

Oh, wow.

[Ally Cardinali]

My mom messages them and says it's okay. Immediately.

[Kate]

Wow.

[Ally Cardinali]

They answer me like, they needed her permission that me as an adult woman, like, couldn't make this decision for myself. But that's another story.

[Kate]

Yeah, right, right.

[Ally Cardinali]

Anyway, so Gi puts it out on the, like, a local radio station that it, you know, my information. And if you know. And my biological mom called the. The.

[Kate]

Wow.

[Ally Cardinali]

The radio station immediately. Immediately. So Jazan, like, I talked with Jazani, and she's like, okay, I'll find her. Before I even asked that, I was like, you know, I was like, thank you for taking care of me and whatever. And she's like, I'll find her. And so we found her, like, very quickly, which is another rare, rare. And I think, you know, a privilege because some adoptees don't have that story.

[Ty]

I think it's a blessing.

[Ally Cardinali]

Yeah, I like that.

[Ty]

You know, instead of a privilege, like, I think it's a blessing that you were able to find her.

[Ally Cardinali]

Yeah, it was a blessing. It was a blessing. And that's a good way to put it because, you know, I like to acknowledge that, first of all, sometimes in reunion, it's too late and people have passed away or they've closed the door on that part of their life, and they don't want to acknowledge the adoptee. And so me being welcomed with open arms was an amazing experience for me. So I am messaging with my biological mom. It's funny because I was teaching at the time and I was teaching esl, English as a second language. And so a lot of my. In middle school. And so for whatever reasons, my students, like, knew this was going on, and so. And that it was, like, the coolest thing ever. I'm like, you're so. I was like, I'm not gonna. So I got a message from Jijani that was like, here's a picture of her. Here's her phone number. Here's a link to her Facebook, and here's her home address and her phone number. And she's like, she's waiting to hear from you. But it was the middle of the school day when I got this message, and so I was like, I want to wait till after school. So there's like, a little window in my classroom, and there was, like, all these little faces, like, in the window, like, waiting for this to happen. And so I messaged her that night, and it was like using Google Translate, one to one, you know, messages. And it was so. And the same night, it was like, this is. I want to say this is that I have three siblings in Brazil that always knew about me.

[Kate]

Wow.

[Ally Cardinali]

They always. They didn't know I was American. They didn't know. But I just think that's really important and something that felt really good because as an adoptee, when you think about reunion, like, there is possible rejection or that people, like, the adoptee is secret. And so I just, like, that felt so good that they knew about me. So that same night, I not only met my biological mother, but also my brother and my sister and my aunts and my cousins. Everyone's messaging me in Portuguese.

[Ty]

Was that overwhelming?

[Ally Cardinali]

It was, right? It really was. But it was also just like, yeah, it's, like, amazing.

[Ty]

Yeah, it's amazing, but overwhelming at the same time.

[Ally Cardinali]

So we were, you know, we didn't get to, like, the meat and the heart of it right away, but eventually, you know, we did. And I heard my biological mother's side of the story and. And she was asking me for forgiveness. And it, like, me needing to forgive her never. Like, it wasn't even in my consciousness. I had nothing to forgive her for. But she explained, you know, her circumstances. And so she. Long story short, she was a live in nanny at the time, or like a live in housekeeper. And she had lost her parents at a young age. And so this was a way for her to shelter herself, feed herself. And so she had actually another child with a man, and that child was living with her paternal grandparents. So the kids. My sister was living with paternal grandparents. And I guess this was like an on and off relationship. And on, I guess, an off time, I was conceived. And she was living with this family as like a live in housekeeper. And so her boss facilitated the whole adoption.

[Kate]

Oh, wow.

[Ally Cardinali]

It was like, you can't stay here with a baby and you need to stay somewhere. So.

[Kate]

Whoa.

[Ally Cardinali]

Yeah. And that makes me sad for her. It's devastating. Yeah, it's devastating. And so after, you know, I was relinquished, she signed over her rights. I mean, I don't, like, I don't even know if she got to hold me or anything. But she was very depressed after that. And her boss told her, well, like, don't. She died. Like, she's not even adopted. She died. And first, like, so. So for 28 years, she like, she's like, I knew in my heart that you were alive. But she's like, I didn't. I didn't know for. For 100% sure. And I don't know why this stupid lady thought that that would make things better, but.

[Ty]

And it sounds like your mom, you know, your birth mom, it was literally out of desperation. They were basically like, you can't have this baby here.

[Ally Cardinali]

Yeah.

[Ty]

You have nowhere to live, and if you're gonna live here.

[Ally Cardinali]

Right, exactly.

[Ty]

You have to place this baby.

[Kate]

She didn't have any contact with the, the doctor when you. The four months they had you. Like, she didn't come and like that. Wow. Okay.

[Ally Cardinali]

No, no. And so when she told me that, I was like, I told you I was teaching at the time, and it was about to be spring break, and I told my parents, I'm going to Brazil again. It's not like they were in like a huge city or anything. You know, it was. It would have been like a mission to get there. But I was like, my dad was like, how are you going to do that? And I was like, I'll figure it out. You figured it out. You got there.

[Kate]

Yeah. With a little dictionary.

[Ally Cardinali]

Yeah. And he was like, I want. I want your mom to go with you. I don't want you to go by yourself. But like, completely support it. Like, to a man that could not even hear that I was adopted, to sending my mom. He paid for it. Like, he, he, like, he sent me good.

[Ty]

Rightfully so.

[Ally Cardinali]

He said, well, yeah, I mean, I'm glad that he did. And you don't, you know, but so my. So we wound up going to Brazil and staying in Jazani's house. Like the doc, the doctor.

[Kate]

Full circle.

[Ty]

Yeah.

[Kate]

You're there. Oh, my God.

[Ally Cardinali]

But my mom. So my mom kept going back and forth and gijani she was staying with Jazani the whole time. And Gijani. So, like, just to, like, talk about the economics in. In Brazil a little bit. GI and her husband are both doctors. They're OBGYNs, and they were making wedding videos on the side to, like, make extra money. Wow. And, like, I grew up with a Brazilian nanny or babysitter, housekeeper.

[Kate]

Oh, you did?

[Ally Cardinali]

Yeah.

[Kate]

Oh, wow.

[Ally Cardinali]

Another full circle moment. This is crazy. Yeah. Who had to leave her son back in Brazil to get so.

[Kate]

So, like, what are the odds that happening?

[Ally Cardinali]

Well, I mean, it's just like, a story. So my story explaining that about how my mom was a housekeeper who had to give her baby for adoption and my nanny had to let her son live with her mother back in Brazil. I told that story, and that's kind of how I had. That was my, like, viral moment on TikTok telling that story, and that's kind of. I built my platform. Am I following on? Like, it's always a stitch. It's like, what's. What's classy if you're rich and trashy if you poor. And it was like raising a child that's not biologically yours, because I was raised in part by this Brazilian nanny who had to leave this behind, her child behind. But then people, like, have all this praise, like, you're an adoptive parent. Like, you're so selfless and whatever. So we fly to Brazil. It was an amazing reunion. Like, very. I mean, obviously really emotional. My biological mom, who's, like, teeny, tiny, petite woman, like, pulls me out into her lap, and she's, like, looking at my fingers and looking at my toe. Like. Like. Like I was a baby. It was so, like, primal. Like animals. Like, like. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kate]

Did that feel. Like. That didn't feel invasive to you at all?

[Ally Cardinali]

So. Wildly. No.

[Kate]

Okay.

[Ally Cardinali]

Yeah, wildly. Like, Like, I was so nervous to be like, these are strangers.

[Kate]

Right?

[Ally Cardinali]

Right. And. But no. And, like, Brazilians, at least the Brazilians that I have encountered that are biologically related to me are so affectionate. And I am. I am so affectionate. And it's so funny because, like, one of the things my. My sisters that I grew up with would talk, like, I always wanted to hug them and touch them and play with their hair, and they were like. And then finally I was like, it would be a couch like, you guys are sitting on, and the whole family's, like, sitting on top of each other, but there's, like, plenty of other space. And it was just like, we don't speak the same language. I'm, like, teaching these, like, these elderly uncles that I'm meeting, like, how to speak into the Google Translate. And. But it was. I don't know, like, it was like animals, like, in a way that it's just like, like communicating and just this knowing on a, like a deeper level.

[Ty]

Soul level.

[Ally Cardinali]

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, reunion, you know, it was all like, very much, like, hot and heavy in the beginning. Like, a lot of relationships are. But, you know, the excitement wears down.

[Kate]

The newness where, you know, the.

[Ally Cardinali]

Yeah. And also, like, life goes on. We live in different countries, we have different cultures, and, you know, I love my biological family very, very much.

[Ty]

How long did you spend out there when you first went there for reunion?

[Ally Cardinali]

So you know what's nuts? I'm getting, like, Facebook memories. It was nine years ago to the day. Oh, wow. Yeah. Isn't that wild? Isn't that wild? I spent about a week, maybe a little over a week, and then I went back by myself again in the. In the summer because now I had, like, my footing and I think they weren't so afraid to send me by myself. And like, we met them and they were good people and. And everyone. It was just very, like, harmonious.

[Kate]

How did your biological mom and your adoptive mom kind of. How did that.

[Ally Cardinali]

So they didn't actually spend too much time together, but they were. Because my mom was like, kikiing with Gijani because like I said, they were. They were friends, and Jijlani was the only person that spoke English, too. But the first night, the initial meeting, they were just like, crying into each other's arms and they were both, like, thanking each other. And that's beautiful, though. Yeah. It was like a really. Another pivotal moment and a really, like, tender moment, I think, healing for all of us.

[Ty]

So have you been back to Brazil ever since? Ever since? No. Do you plan on going back ever?

[Ally Cardinali]

I really want my biological mom to meet her grandsons.

[Kate]

Yeah. Okay. So that's a whole different. No, adoptees, they get older than they have their own children.

[Ally Cardinali]

Yeah. So those are called second generation adoptees.

[Kate]

Oh, interesting. Never heard that term before.

[Ally Cardinali]

Yeah. So my children will be second generation adoptees. And adoption, you know, affects them too.

[Ty]

Right?

[Ally Cardinali]

Or just like, children.

[Ty]

My kids. Yeah.

[Ally Cardinali]

Yeah. But children of adoptees in general, because especially, like, without reunion, like, they have all these questions about where they came from. Like, it's just a domino effect. So my kids are really little, so they. I have a one year old and an almost three year old, so I mean, they don't. We haven't discussed any of this, but my biological mom didn't get to know me as a baby and she missed that out. And I would really like it if she got the opportunity to be part of her grandson's lives. So, like, I sent her pictures and stuff, but, you know, it's a superficial kind of level. Yeah. But I would like to go back because I did. I want to bring my sons.

[Ty]

Would she ever be able to come to the United States and visit you think so?

[Ally Cardinali]

That was always something that we really wanted. It's just been a lot of red tape with visas and presidencies and. Yeah, it's just not. It's much so. I have dual citizenship because I was born there. So it's much easier and much easier for an American to go to Brazil than a Brazilian to come to America, but. So we would like that to happen one day. It just hasn't.

[Kate]

That is a crazy story.

[Ally Cardinali]

Yeah, it's nuts.

[Kate]

I've heard like thousands of adoptee stories, but that is. That was. That's Chris crazy. I can't believe that you literally walked in. You were in the same house that you were at four months old, and then you end up going back there. That like, what. It's just then your nanny being Brazil, it's just so.

[Ally Cardinali]

Yeah.

[Kate]

When you talk about kind of like a pivotal moments of coming out of the fog, did you ever, like, did anyone ever give. Give you, like, pushback on searching or did anyone, like, say that you were, you know, disapproving your parents?

[Ally Cardinali]

So it's so funny because so many people were like, is your mom gonna be upset? Like, Lucine, my mom, NJ mom was like, is she gonna be upset? And my mom, she's from Brooklyn. She's like, why would I be upset, Alexandra? You know, her whole whole thing was, you don't run out of love.

[Kate]

Right.

[Ally Cardinali]

It's not a finite resource.

[Ty]

Right.

[Ally Cardinali]

And there's, you know, she was very confident. Like, there's not. You can't take away her relationship with me as a. As my mother. Like.

[Kate]

No, but I think it's interesting that society automatically goes like, oh, my God, what about your mom?

[Ally Cardinali]

Yes, I think it's really interesting too. And when I went viral, I got like. I didn't mention my adoptive family at all in the video. It was really just explaining, like, the irony of, like, leaving a person who was a live in housekeeper to being raised by a Brazilian live in housekeeper people. There was a lot of. It's still like, I. Like, this was years ago and it still, like, goes up on the for you page. Unfortunately, it's not monetized, but. But I'm just kidding a little bit. People continuously are like, this is so rude to your adoptive parents. How do you spit in their face like that?

[Ty]

And they supported you. They said, absolutely, let's go for it. Just make sure that you're doing it safely.

[Ally Cardinali]

Like, you know, so I made a TikTok with my mom and she was like, smart. She's like, I understand you have. You have trauma on the cellular level. That was a horrible impression. I'm sorry. She's, like, upset. Why would I be upset? And, you know, I think my dad was always the more, like, insecure one about adoption in general. And she always said, like, he was the one that wouldn't let me tell you. And, like, it's all good now, but. But, you know, I hope it's okay that I share this, but I. Since I started to communicate with you guys and a lot of your clips have been coming up older clips, which some of them are just like, really emotional, like you're 16 and pregnant episode. But there was an interview you had with your biological daughter's adoptive parents, and the adoptive father says the quiet part out loud. So I even recorded it on my phone because I'm like, I can't believe he said that. And he was like, we worry that, you know, our daughter will grow up and want a relationship with you.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Ally Cardinali]

And at first I was like, what a dweeb. I hate you. But then I was like, that's like, he's that just honest.

[Ty]

And I can understand he was being.

[Kate]

So vulnerable in that moment. And I actually, looking back as an adult, I appreciate him being. Because I think the more even adoptive parents talk about that honesty, like, that's important. We need to, like, that's. That's the reality of it.

[Ally Cardinali]

And what we would like to see going forward is, like, if you're going to raise a child that's not biologically related to you, whether that's through, you know, adoption, step parent adoption, legal guardianship, whatever it is, to address these insecurities beforehand. Right. And I mean, we're all learning, but hopefully, you know, that's why we use our voices. Right. To make it better for, you know, the people that are coming after us. So, you know, we. We get mad that, like, what do you mean, that you're insecure? Of course. Like, we have birth parents. What, like, but it's just. It's just real.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Ally Cardinali]

You know, and that doesn't make it right. It's not.

[Kate]

Right.

[Ally Cardinali]

You got to work through that.

[Kate]

Right, right, right.

[Ally Cardinali]

But to acknowledge it.

[Ty]

But they're real fears and feelings and emotions, and those are valid, but like you said, but work through the.

[Ally Cardinali]

Right, Right. And like Lucine says, my mom, like, love doesn't run out.

[Kate]

I love that because it's so true.

[Ally Cardinali]

Yeah.

[Kate]

And he And I. I think it's. It's interesting because a lot of people will kind of throw that clip back in my face by saying, you know, that, well, you were just being really stubborn and. And you were being, you know, defensive and.

[Ally Cardinali]

And you were a little.

[Kate]

And I was. There was a lot of stuff building up to that moment that we were. That we were talking about.

[Ty]

There wasn't a lot of open, honest communication happening for years.

[Kate]

For years.

[Ty]

It was like our first, like, let's get everything out.

[Kate]

And I actually offer. I said, I want to sit down with them. I'm done with the communicating through our adoption counselor Dawn. I'm done. You know, I wanted just to have the o. I wanted to sit across and just explain and talk. And I think it's interesting that people are more focused on, you know, our. Us being defensive and kind of wanting to talk versus, you know, what you just mentioned, which is what he was.

[Ally Cardinali]

Well, you know. You know, the lens of which I'm looking at.

[Kate]

Right.

[Ally Cardinali]

But, yeah, I mean, sometimes I just want to grab your lips, like, stop talking.

[Kate]

It's been a problem my whole life. You got 80. Yeah. I mean, I'm gonna say I got a lot of issues. Okay.

[Ally Cardinali]

I mean, not. Not today. I loved everything that you've said, but sometimes I watch these things, and I'm.

[Kate]

Like, I know it's been a problem in my life.

[Ally Cardinali]

That's fine. You work on it in your own therapy. But. But I think, like, my story and your story are very important and because they matter. But also because, you know, I have my little corner of the Internet that I'm talking from, and you have, you know, you're arguably the most recognizable birth parents of all time, as far as I know. Yeah.

[Kate]

I mean, I actually looked at that way, but, yeah.

[Ty]

And that's why, you know, I feel like for Tyler and I, we want to share all stories because not one adoption is the.

[Ally Cardinali]

At all.

[Ty]

They are all different. Not one looks the same. And I feel like all adoptees and all of their experiences should be told as many as we can tell.

[Kate]

The positive, the good. Yeah.

[Ty]

Because at the end of the day, like we say all the time, adoptees are the most important. And the Most affected. And whatever anybody can do, even policy wise, adoptive parent wise, education wise, whatever we can do just to help the adoptee at the end of the day, that's what's important to us. You know, like, that's kind of the.

[Kate]

Reason why we even started this podcast to begin with, was like, we need to.

[Ty]

We saw all things, but also to uplift adoptee voices, let them speak about, you know, what did they like, what did they not like, what do they think could be different? What was special? Like, all of the things.

[Kate]

Because I think being the birth parent side, we're told to hush, hush, be quiet. And then the most that we're. Yeah, you guys.

[Ty]

And the adoptive parents can say whatever they want.

[Kate]

What we're seeing is that adoptees are also the ones saying, no, no. And then why are adoptive parents, you know, why are we, guess, prioritizing their voice more than.

[Ally Cardinali]

Well, it's.

[Kate]

It is.

[Ally Cardinali]

It's real. Well, because we have a 25 billion dollar adoption industry and the consumer. Because it is a business. It is an industry.

[Kate]

They hate that. But I've gotten a lot of.

[Ally Cardinali]

Well, I mean, it's just true.

[Ty]

Yeah, it is true.

[Ally Cardinali]

And it's a supply and demand business. You know, when Roe v. Wade was overturned, one of the reasons cited, like, again, the quiet part out loud, was a shortage in the domestic supply of infants. As if people are owed babies. So if you think about it, why. Why have adoptive parents stories and why have they always been painted in such, like a heroic, saintly light, is because the industry depends on that.

[Kate]

They're the clients at the end of the day.

[Ally Cardinali]

Right, right.

[Kate]

They're the ones that go to these agencies.

[Ally Cardinali]

Exactly. And you know, another clip, Caitlin, that just like, oh, I cried so much. Was. It was after you gave birth and the adoption counselor walked in and was like, it's been five hours. Like, can the adoptive parents meet the baby? And you said, you were like, not yet. You know, you said, I want to get more. And I was like, her. But it's like. It's like a vulture. Like, it's been five hours. What do you mean, five hours?

[Kate]

Like, that's. I've actually had their opposite reaction where they're like, well, that's a long time. And I'm like, I. We didn't feel that way. I don't think we felt five hours.

[Ally Cardinali]

Somebody like you carried and loved and, you know, don't know when you get to see again, like, back off.

[Ty]

And I think. And I think if that's one thing that I can change like, me watching it now with adult mind, like, adult eyes, and I see that clip. Like, obviously, if I could go back, there would have been things that I would have changed. Like, I don't think I would have had Brandon Teresa there. I think I would have spent just me tying her for the three days that we have with her, because you guys have her for the rest of her life.

[Ally Cardinali]

That terrifies. That is your right. And you have a revocation period, too. I'm not sure how long it was in your state, but, like, after you sign the papers in all 50 states in America, it's different, the timeline. But after you consent to adoption, you can revoke consent.

[Ty]

Yes.

[Ally Cardinali]

They don't. They don't want you to spend time. I know you give birth. That's not. That's not coincidental. They don't want. They don't want you to change your mind because, again, it is an industry.

[Ty]

Yeah.

[Ally Cardinali]

They need. They need the product.

[Ty]

It's nice. We'll discuss.

[Kate]

And I also feel like it's one of those things where it's like, you know, you. You know, even if you have that thought, like, I don't want them to be with the baby too long. It's like, that's already a sign that you probably shouldn't.

[Ty]

Too fucking bad. Go sit down.

[Kate]

It's like you already. You're already, like, you're operating already kind of in that fear. I just feel like that.

[Ally Cardinali]

But it's also coercion on the top, on the. So anyway, what I wanted to say is our stories matter. And they matter because they shine a light on these systemic issues. It's not Kate and Tyler's story. It's not Ali's story. It is. And it's also, like, because this is happening. It is happening today, right now, and we need to talk about it.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Ally Cardinali]

So it's not my bad experience, your bad experience, or whatever the fuck, even good experiences. It's just.

[Ty]

It's happening. Things need to change.

[Ally Cardinali]

Right. Well, even in, like, successful adoptions like my own, where I. I feel like I am my. Like I told you on the way here last night, my mom's like, good luck. And where I'm loved and supported, like. Like I've shared with you. That doesn't. That. That didn't erase everything that I went through.

[Ty]

Right.

[Ally Cardinali]

And also for adoptees that say that they don't have trauma. I hope you never. I hope you never feel it. I hope. You know, and. And I've talked to some adoptees, were like, I never had adoption Trauma either until this happened and I hit 40 and, or I have my own kids or like, and things just like break open. And I, you know, I don't think every adoptee has these effects of trauma. But I explain it like this. Like not everyone who smokes cigarettes is going to get cancer, but that doesn't mean that we should hand cigarettes out like candy. Right. And we want to think about protective factors for adoptees. And one of the conversations that I think that we should be having, and I think your story illuminates is what is an open adoption and who is an open adoption for? Because if you ask like the, in my opinion as an adoptee, as a, as a professional, as a parent. Yeah. The child needs to be centered in all aspects. If external care through adoption or whatever.

[Ty]

Yes.

[Ally Cardinali]

How? Open adoption. And we again, we see it in your guys circumstances. Open adoption was a bargaining chip. Even negotiating how often and what year. Like, I'm sorry, sending pictures back and forth is not going to help an adoptee like move through this. And it's not going to quell adoption trauma. Right. One visit a year, right. Like it's not. So we need to talk about intern. We need to rethink, we need to rethink all of this. But when we're talking about specifically open adoption, how, how can we center the child in an open adoption? Because one visit a year is not in service of the adoptee.

[Kate]

Right.

[Ty]

You're saying like there should be more involvement. And then also when a child gets to an age, they should be able to decipher on what they want. As far as like openness, do you think like the adoption? Yeah, right, sure. Like maybe an adoptee you say like, oh, I don't really want that much or no, I want to see him like every other weekend or get together with Hal.

[Ally Cardinali]

Why? That's another reason why adoptive parents or again, people who are raising children that are not biologically yours, you need to deal with your shit right beforehand. Because I see it again and again and again. Well, they're not safe. And I'm like, well, what does that mean?

[Kate]

Yeah, that's. Yeah, yeah. What does it mean?

[Ally Cardinali]

What does that mean? And if they're not safe, how can you facilitate communication in a way that is safe?

[Kate]

Yeah, right. Because it's a possibility. There's a pot. There's a way to do it.

[Ally Cardinali]

Right. So we don't want to be raising children in 2025 that will one day have to come out of the fog. They were right that there is no fog. Right. You're allowed to talk about being adopted. You're allowed to ask questions about why. You're allowed to see. Have pictures hanging in your house of your biological family. Like, what. What can we do? What can, you know, the adoptive parents or legal guardians do to make in conjunction and working together with the biological parents to do a truly open adoption that is in the service of the child. Because right now, like I told you, like, like it was for you all, the concept of an open adoption was a bargaining chip to get this adoption pulled, pushed through.

[Ty]

And I think with what you're saying too, I think to end with that is like what you've been saying. They need to work on their. Before they even consider to adopt.

[Ally Cardinali]

Exactly, exactly. And especially people who are adopting as a result of infertility, that is a trauma in and of itself. And in that same clip that I was talking about, your daughter's adoptive mother says, well, there's loss on all sides of the triad. You know, the adoptee lost their biological parents. You guys lost your daughter. And she, she's like, I've lost so much to infertility. And I think that is so inappropriate in this conversation.

[Kate]

I'm really glad you said it because I know that I have a hard time shutting my mouth. But like, in that moment when she said that, I felt really like, guilty for even like mentioning, like, oh my God, I'm so sorry that. And I almost felt like I felt like we did when we were 16. Where I better make sure that, you know, that we always felt like we had to, like we're last. Like how we feel. It's about them and making sure they're comfortable and safe and all that stuff. And when she said that, I felt very, like, very. Just inferior.

[Ty]

Very, like I have pain or sadness.

[Kate]

Right. I wasn't allowed to.

[Ty]

Hard for me.

[Kate]

And then I've heard other people say that, you know, that wasn't really a time and place for her to bring up her.

[Ally Cardinali]

No. Loss. Loss in the triad has nothing to do. Not that that's not valid.

[Kate]

Right, right.

[Ally Cardinali]

And you know, I've experienced pregnancy loss myself. I mean, I have two sons and. But. But, you know, people online have said to me, like, you'll never understand. And I was like, you'll never understand how much I understand.

[Kate]

Yeah, right.

[Ally Cardinali]

And I mean, adoptees aren't plan B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P. Because we hear, oh, you know, we tried to conceive for five years and then we did IUI and that didn't work. And then, and then we tried IVF and that and that. And then finally God put adoption on our hearts. Right.

[Kate]

Which I think as an adoptee that kind of has to feel like, oh, I was plan Z.

[Ally Cardinali]

Like, that's exactly, I mean.

[Kate]

Yeah, yeah, that's got to be really difficult on top of everything else. And I also, I also feel like, you know, as far as the loss goes with infertility, I'm not minimizing that.

[Ally Cardinali]

No, no, neither am I. I'm just saying that in the conversation when we're talking about loss within adoption, you're in fertility loss, it doesn't have a place in this conversation because if you're choosing adoption, I really, really, really hope that you have moved through. Not that you've stopped grieving the, but that you have grieve the loss because infertility is a very emotional medical issue. Adoption cannot heal that.

[Ty]

Right, I get what you're saying.

[Ally Cardinali]

And so that's why I felt when that that was inappropriate in that conversation. And we need to denormalize adoption as a plan B or family planning because adoption is not, but should only be a last resort for a child in crisis when it is impossible for them to remain in a safe biological, a safe and available biological family. It should not be a service for whether you're infertile or you're in a same sex couple or you're single, whatever the case may be. Adoption should not exist as a service for an adult.

[Kate]

Right, Correct.

[Ally Cardinali]

And it does. And we, and we need to like when we should be appalled. Yeah, we should be. We should be. You know that America, the United States of America is the only country on planet earth with a private adoption industry.

[Kate]

I just learned, I just learned this, that private adoption is illegal in. I was like, I had no idea that Bethany Christian Services, the agency we use, like it's illegal. They wouldn't be, it's not operable there.

[Ally Cardinali]

And so like with international adoption, which it's like they're look up the Hague Convention and Hague laws because a lot of countries have closed their doors to, to American adoption agencies. But yeah, it's all, they're, you know, you can adopt internationally in some cases, but that's an American company company.

[Ty]

Right.

[Ally Cardinali]

Like listen to the life industry company commodity.

[Kate]

It's just, all of, it's just really.

[Ty]

It'S, it's kind of, they're literally buying and selling infants.

[Ally Cardinali]

And so I, I, we're having this conversation and I, and, and what I get on my platform is well, well then what do you want? Do you want babies to, like, live on. On the street? Why does everybody say like or leave them in an orphanage? Which. First of all, we don't have orphanages. And they. I mean, we have, like, group homes and stuff like that, but we. There's no, like, you can't, like, leave the baby on the doorstep of the orphanage.

[Ty]

Right?

[Ally Cardinali]

Well, there's safe haven laws, but that's a different thing. But no, we want. When external care, when it's not safe or possible to remain with biological families, we want the child's needs centered. Right? And that means, like, we keep saying, like, adoptive and legal guardian, dealing with their shit beforehand and their fragility and insecurity and expectations that they're putting on this child. Because like I said in the beginning, raising a adoptee or a child that is not biologically related to you is not the same as raising a biological child. We're not. We. You can't switch us out.

[Ty]

No, it's not the same at all.

[Ally Cardinali]

It's not.

[Ty]

And an adoptee comes with, like, you know.

[Ally Cardinali]

Exactly.

[Ty]

Trauma that they can't even verbalize, emotions that they aren't understanding, and they need extra help to understand those things and safe places. Safe place to talk about it and safe people to talk about it with.

[Kate]

Them without getting yelled at. Because I noticed that, like, if you. If you get. You get, like, ripped apart for even.

[Ally Cardinali]

Yeah.

[Kate]

I mean, having an opinion.

[Ally Cardinali]

Tyler, you and I have talked. Talked about this, that a belief system is the hardest thing to change. And that's not my opinion. Like, there's been, like, research, like, even, like, in the face of facts, if you are indoctrinated into a belief system, even in the face of information, facts, research, people will dig their heels in. They do. And so I. I have my platform and I have. I. Not I. We. We. Some of the other people that you have invited to share this space with you too, and thousands that have come before me, you know, we are, like, putting a chip in all of this. And I get messages like, I thought you were, like, batshit at first, and now I'm like, really? You're hearing what you have to say, and it makes a lot of sense. And so I don't. I think the only way to really, like, I have a big goal and my community has a big goal, and that is to reframe the way that we as a society, as a nation think about adoption. And I don't think we do that from yelling at each other. I think that we do it like this that we're sitting down and we're.

[Ty]

Having a conversation and saying, like, oh, yours might be different because mine's different and yours isn't the same and mine isn't. And sometimes agree to disagree but just helping each other.

[Ally Cardinali]

Right, Right. And also, I like to, like, even adoptees who have nothing to say, like, everything is great and I'm so happy for you. That doesn't change the systemic issues in adoption. That it's an industry. Right. That we don't have access to our medical information, that international adoptees don't have automatic citizenship. So even, Even if these things don't affect you as an adoptee or just as a human being, like, we should care about that.

[Ty]

Right? Like, be a decent human being.

[Ally Cardinali]

Right.

[Kate]

We should care. I mean, you're right. We should totally care. Just because you had a good experience doesn't mean you can't acknowledge or no.

[Ally Cardinali]

Experience or like, like your neighbor's friend is adopted and they love it.

[Kate]

Yeah. Well, that's why it's interesting how, like, I have to, like, people are yelling at me for not having the right qualifications to advocate for adoptees or adoption reform, etc. It's like, well, what makes me qualify? I mean, I can't. Like, it's.

[Ty]

Right. It's like when we were all about, you know, the Black Lives Matter movement too, you know, when all that was going on and women's rights, you know, stuff, and nobody then was saying, sit down, you're not black, or sit down, you're not a woman. So why does it matter what I advocate for? I advocate for things that I'm passionate about and that I feel like there needs to be a change in. And it's like, so why does that matter? I'm going to advocate for whatever I feel I believe in and that needs to change.

[Kate]

But I've never seen anyone get mad about advocacy. Like, it's like, how are you mad.

[Ally Cardinali]

About trying to feel? I mean, not that everything's going well with, like, women's Right. Clearly things aren't going well with, like, women's rights and ending racism and all of this stuff. But with, but there are supporters and there are allies. Yes, Adoptees. Like, it doesn't matter, like, what side of the aisle you fall on. Like, if you're a Republican, you're a Democrat, you're.

[Kate]

You're whatever, Christian, atheist, whatever.

[Ally Cardinali]

Yeah, it doesn't matter. People are like, adoption is beautiful and how dare you.

[Ty]

And I think it's becoming more. I'm seeing more and a little bit more, though, of People like you said when people message you and be like, I thought you were about crazy, but I'm starting to learn. I think it takes people hearing things after so much to be like and doing their own little bit of research and being like, wait a minute, these people are on to something.

[Ally Cardinali]

Absolutely.

[Ty]

And I'm starting to see a little bit of that.

[Ally Cardinali]

I. Absolutely, absolutely. And like I said, I think, I actually think TikTok has made a huge cultural impact. I really, really do. So I take a lot of pride in being a part of that community. I mean I have a one year old and a three year old, so it's not that easy to me.

[Kate]

Well, yeah, because you were off tick tock for a while and I remember, I think I messaged, I was like, so you're not. And then I saw, I was like, oh, why aren't you coming back?

[Ally Cardinali]

Like, well, that man. So yeah, so you had messaged me in September and I, I didn't come back until the band to like say goodbye to every. That 16 hour vacation we took.

[Ty]

Right.

[Ally Cardinali]

But I like said like wanted to make a goodbye message and I like check. I saw and first of all, I didn't think it was really. I'm like, what a weird catfish thing to be to pretend. But that. And because you're not verified or you.

[Ty]

Were at the time, we're still not crazy.

[Ally Cardinali]

But then I saw and you don't have much content on there. But then you had tagged him. So I was like, oh wow. But then I like, I'm texting my friends, I'm like, Tyler from T mom is messaging me and, and I was like, but he's not going to get back to me because it's been like like almost six months or something. But you did.

[Kate]

Oh yeah. Right away.

[Ally Cardinali]

And I'm really glad that you did and I'm really honored to be part of these conversations because one, they're not happening as often as they should be and like this has been a bottom up grassroots effort and people are like you said, they are starting to notice and we're planting seeds and you know, one time I was out to dinner with my husband and a dear, another adopted and he's like, one day people are going to be like, you did what? When you talk about private adoption, that it's really, you know, and I hope it to be true that this is going to be a stain on our, on our history that we're going to. We can't believe it operated this way this long.

[Ty]

Yeah, for this long too. Yeah.

[Ally Cardinali]

I Mean, this will be another, like, three hour podcast, but I really, really encourage people to look into the history. Learn about Georgia Tan.

[Kate]

Georgia Tan. Yeah.

[Ally Cardinali]

Learn about Georgia Tann. I really recommend the episode of Criminal with Phoebe Judge has a great episode on.

[Kate]

Oh, really?

[Ally Cardinali]

On Georgia Tan. Yeah. There's also a book like Baby Thief.

[Kate]

Yeah, I read a part of the book.

[Ally Cardinali]

Yeah. But if you want to get, like, a more concise version, that really is either the series. If you look up Georgia tan on TikTok, I did a series on her. But I really recommend the episode of Criminal with Phoebe Judge. Also, how international adoption started in the United States through the Korean War and the saviorism there that, you know, our troops were conceiving children with these. These women. And then we tore their country apart and then brought these kids home, like, look how good we are. And that. And that was Holt International. The. The whole family was like, the first, like, pioneers in adopting these Korean children. And to this day, in 2025, they're still the largest operating international adoption agency in the U.S. wow.

[Kate]

So I didn't know there was even still operating.

[Ally Cardinali]

Yes.

[Kate]

Oh, wow. That's crazy.

[Ally Cardinali]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ty]

One of my cousins is an international adoptee, and she is Korean either. Korean. I think it is Korean.

[Kate]

Yeah. Well, actually, it's crazy because you were the first. You were the first tick tock person that I ever saw talk about adoption. And I was like. And that you open up the floodgates for me because once I. Once I hit the hashtag, you know, once I hit the hashtag, first it was adopted, and then I hit the hashtag adoptee voices or something like that. All sudden, I mean, I spent days.

[Ty]

Oh, he was going down some black holes.

[Ally Cardinali]

Yeah.

[Ty]

Which is good, though. That's how you learn from love. Listening to people that.

[Ally Cardinali]

I mean, that's what happened to me when. So another part of me coming out of the fog, I went into reunion. But also I was getting a master's in social work and I. We had to write. It was a child attachment class I was taking and I. You had. You could write a paper about, like, whatever. And my, like, thesis for my paper was attachment parenting will cure. Will cure adoption trauma.

[Kate]

Oh, whoa, wait, you're right.

[Ally Cardinali]

Oh, wait. So. But I was like. Because I understood adoption was trauma, but, like, it's still beautiful, right? Like, and so, like, like I said, it was baby. Baby steps. And my professor happened to be an adoptive parent, and she.

[Kate]

That's crazy.

[Ally Cardinali]

So she heard me say all of this, and she gave me a stack of books I've never had a professor, like, give me a book that was free. Right, right, Exactly. No, these were, like, from her personal library. Like, and she. And on the top of the stack was the Primal Wound. And she's like, these are all great. And she was like, but go easy with this one.

[Kate]

Oh, wow.

[Ally Cardinali]

And, I mean, my black hole. Like, I read that. I was so angry and, like, how I was a bitch to my mom when I was a teenager. I went nuts on her. I was so angry and cruel, and I. And I took it out all on her. Like, how. How could you not understand this? You didn't question anything. I was so, like, this misplaced anger. Because I really think in a lot of ways, adoptive parents are victims of the fog. I know.

[Ty]

I. Oh, I think that they are 100, and they're not.

[Kate]

They also, like, why aren't they giving that book when they're coming into the doors? Why are they exactly.

[Ty]

Given the education, a trauma, informed.

[Kate]

I mean.

[Ally Cardinali]

But the thing about my mom, who is a badass, like, it was like a toddler having a tantrum because, I mean, I'm an adult woman, but I'm, like, having this, like, this heartbreaking thing happening to me, and I'm kicking and screaming and thrashing at her, and instead of being like, you ungrateful thing, you. She held like, help me. And she was like, there's nothing. She's like, there's nothing that you could say that is going to make me stop loving you. And. And you're safe. And maybe she didn't say these things verbatim, but that I felt really safe.

[Ty]

To feel your feelings and your anger.

[Ally Cardinali]

Yeah. Yeah. And it was. And it was. It was not neat. I'm not particularly proud of it, but it was. It was real. So. Yeah. Talk about.

[Kate]

She honored you in that moment.

[Ally Cardinali]

She. She absolutely did. And, you know, my. My other family was offended at my behavior, which I. I understand, but that's a mom. That's a mother.

[Ty]

Yeah, you're right.

[Ally Cardinali]

So, you know, I hear a lot of people, you know, in. In my story and your story, like, people trying to define things like, you're not this, and she's not this, and they're not. They're not sisters and you're not the mom and whatever. And. What? You know, only an adoptee gets to decide that. Yeah. I have two moms, and. And then my relationship with them is very different. But adoptees get to define what things are for themselves. So much is decided for us.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Ty]

And it should not be that way.

[Ally Cardinali]

And, and as an adoptive person, like, one different decision, I could have had a completely different reality.

[Ty]

Right.

[Ally Cardinali]

Like, what if these other people came and adopted me first? Or I. I was raised with my biological family or whatever it is, and our. Our names are decide, you know, change and our birth certificates are changed. And. And so one thing that I. I deeply believe is our stories are our own to tell. And I. What else do I believe?

[Ty]

No, I think that was great. I think that was great because Ty and I always say that too. Like, yeah, the adopties. It's always your right as an adoptee to tell your story. Nobody should speak about it for you or tell it for you because you say it. Right.

[Kate]

Yeah, we've honestly struggled with that because we're on reality tv.

[Ally Cardinali]

Yeah.

[Kate]

We had a hard time. How do we balance.

[Ty]

We try to go into our story versus speaking of, like, on our feelings things.

[Ally Cardinali]

Right. I mean, it is.

[Ty]

We feel.

[Ally Cardinali]

It is like a really. No, I'll tell you, I'll be really honest with you. When, like I said, all the clips are coming back and to see your daughter's relinquishment was filmed and I think. Were you even giving birth? Were they there? They were in the room when you were giving birth. Like, who? Like, I don't know. As an adoptee, I'm like, wow, like, what? Like, these are the moments that shaped your biological daughter entire life. And, you know, and I think also we have different sensibilities now in 2025 about children and privacy and whatever. But within. Within adoption, you know, people have to stop saying. Even people in my community. Oh, as an adoptee, I would feel this way about, like, the speculation is.

[Ty]

Right. Like you said, who are you to speak on this one story? You can't. Or how they would feel. Don't speak on their feelings.

[Ally Cardinali]

No, nobody. Nobody knows anyone's experience until they share it. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. And so, like, and. And my community is. No, no different. I see it like, oh, I would feel if this happened, I would feel this way and that way. And I bet this person feels that way. And I just.

[Kate]

I want to be like, speculation is really not helpful. And it's also could be potentially damaging because you're. Someone could be reading this. And so it's like, why are you.

[Ally Cardinali]

Well, I just think about, like, how weird it must be for your daughter to have all these people talking about her.

[Ty]

Right.

[Kate]

I know.

[Ally Cardinali]

Like, they know her.

[Kate]

Right. Which makes it difficult. Like I said, as birth parents, but also documented.

[Ally Cardinali]

Yes. I. I don't mean to Cut you off. I'm so sorry. But I also think, I also think you guys have to, you have to. Like I said, not that I can think of or know of. I don't know any birth parents that are in your position. And the way that you have us adoptees on here, like, you're using your platform in such an important way. And, and like I said, your, your story deserves to be told. And I think, and I think your daughter's story also deserves to be protected. So it's a very. It's tricky.

[Kate]

Yeah, it's very tricky.

[Ally Cardinali]

It is very tricky. And, and that's why for moving forward.

[Kate]

Me and Kate decided we're like, we're not, we're not talking about negatively about or anything about our personal adoption story. We're going to focus on just advocacy, adoptee voices and just kind of. That's because, honestly, our whole story's out there. Watch it.

[Ty]

I mean, our feelings are.

[Kate]

And we can't control what was aired or what we filmed, but we can control moving forward. So this is what going to do. And so that's, you know, the reason why we're even Ali.

[Ty]

So I want, thank you so much for coming on here and being vulnerable and sharing the ins and outs of your story and your journey and where can people find you, your username, all that.

[Ally Cardinali]

Okay, so you can find me on TikTok at Wild Heart Collective Underscore. And I do have a whole. In addition to being an adoptee and living in adoptee spaces for almost a decade in community with other adoptees and having a background in education, I also, like I mentioned, have a master's in social work. And so with all that experience mixed together, I do offer services for adoptive parents, whether your adoptee is still a child or an adult. But I help adoptive parents better support the needs of their adoptee. And also, like we've mentioned a few times, like, deal with the shit. I'm here. Give me your shit.

[Kate]

I want to hold it.

[Ty]

So what's the name of it? Where is it located?

[Ally Cardinali]

So, and then also I also have a group coaching and support group that I do with adoptees. And I am happy if anyone is doing a project that has an adoption storyline to do some consulting there to make sure that we handle that with knowing and respect and the care that adoptees deserve. And you can find all of that on my very new and improved website, wildheartcollective Care. Oh, that's awesome.

[Ty]

Thank you.

[Kate]

I can't wait to see that. I can't wait to see it.

[Ty]

And thank you so much for joining us on today's episode.

[Ally Cardinali]

Ali, thank you so much for inviting me. This was so fun. We will.

[Ty]

We'll talk to you guys next week.

[Ally Cardinali]

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[Kate]

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[Ally Cardinali]

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[Kate]

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