#12135 Can Family Curses Lead to Demonic Activity? And More Questions - Joe Heschmeyer

Summary

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Catholic Answers Live: "Can Family Curses Lead to Demonic Activity? And More Questions"

Episode #12135 | April 2, 2025 | Guest: Joe Heschmeyer
Host: Sy (Psy) Kellett | Format: Ask Me Anything (AMA)

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Episode Overview

This episode features Joe Heschmeyer fielding listener questions on a wide array of Catholic theological and practical topics. Subjects range from biblical questions on election and typology to doctrinal issues such as the nature of the Incarnation, the efficacy of the Eucharist, the selection of confirmation names, and the real-world impact of curses and demonic activity within families. The segment also has a lighthearted tone, especially with in-studio participation from high school students, blending rigorous apologetics with humor and relatable analogies.

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Key Discussion Points

1. The Parable of the Wedding Feast and Election

Caller: Ricky (04:27)

• Question: Is Jesus’ parable of the wedding feast in Matthew 22 a reflection of the doctrine of election as discussed by Paul?
• Joe’s Response:
  • The parable aligns with covenantal themes: initial invited guests (Israel’s unfaithful) refuse, so others (Gentiles) are invited.
  • Paul’s Romans parallels this, especially about “branches broken off” (those who fall away).
  • Both parable and Pauline letters show God initiates calling, but humans can refuse or later lose their invitation.
  • Key quote:

    "We can't invite ourselves to the wedding feast. We can say, no, we can't give ourselves an invitation. There are no wedding crashers at the wedding feast of the lamb." — Joe (07:55)

  • Minor differences: The Greek word for “called” (klētos) is used differently by Jesus and Paul, but both stress God’s initiative.

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2. The Incarnation: Change in God or Not?

In-Studio Question: Avelia/Senior Class from St. Joseph’s (11:01)

• Question: “How is the Incarnation not a change in God?”
• Joe’s Response:
  • The change occurs in Christ’s humanity, not in divine nature.
  • God, in divinity, is immutable; humanity in Christ comes into being—a new relationship is established.
  • Analogy: When you view something, you change (receive light); the object itself doesn't.
  • The two natures (divine and human) remain distinct in Christ.
  • Person vs. Nature: "Who you are" is person; "what you are" is nature.
  • Emphasizes the hypostatic union’s mystery, acknowledging human limitations to understanding.
  • Notable explanation:

    "God being perfect, is complete in himself. He doesn't change. But what happens in the Incarnation isn’t a change in the divine perfection.” — Joe (16:24-17:28)

  • Scriptural reference: The Incarnation was eternally intended (Genesis 3:15).

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3. Typology: John as the Eagle and Revelation 12

Caller: Cesar (17:46)

• Question: Can the eagle wings given to the woman in Revelation 12 symbolize St. John, who is entrusted with Mary, drawing a liturgical and typological connection?
• Joe’s Response:
  • Explains symbolism of the four living creatures (Revelation 4) as representing the four Gospels:
    • Mark: Lion; Luke: Ox; Matthew: Man; John: Eagle.
  • Recaps patristic support for linking Gospel authors to these symbols.
  • Draws parallel: The eagle in Revelation 12 (helping the woman) reflects both divine protection and, possibly, John’s care for Mary, entrusted at the cross.
  • Suggests viewing Revelation liturgically (Scott Hahn’s approach), strengthening this typological interpretation.
  • Key quote:

    "It can also be, and I think it's right to at least speculate, that there's probably a connection here about the role of John himself in terms of protecting the woman who gave birth to Jesus." — Joe (22:30)

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4. Choosing a Confirmation Saint

Caller: Josh, OCIA Candidate (23:32; 28:40)

• Question: Are there rules for picking a confirmation saint, especially when drawn to lesser-known or pre-congregation saints (e.g., St. Wulfric the Miracle Worker)?
• Joe’s Response:
  • No strict canonical rules for choosing a confirmation name; it’s a pious tradition, not a requirement.
  • Pre-congregation saints (canonized by popular acclaim before formal Vatican processes) are perfectly permissible.
  • Council’s recognition is often enough—official canonization came later in Church history.
  • The spiritual value is in connection, not administrative details.
  • Fun exchange about obscure saints and church calendars.

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5. Family Curses and Demonic Activity

In-Studio Question: Scarlet (33:46)

• Question: Can someone actually experience demonic activity because of a family curse?
• Joe’s Response:
  • Church hasn’t definitively declared on the mechanics of “generational curses.”
  • Baptism is believed to break the power of all sin and darkness—no one is punished for ancestors’ sins in a juridical sense (Jeremiah 31:29-30; John 9).
  • However, spiritual and physical consequences of parents' actions can still affect children (e.g., upbringing, exposure to evil).
  • Immediate family involvement in the occult can cause harm by “opening doors.”
  • More remote ancestral “curses” requiring special prayers (as in some Protestant circles) are not supported by Catholic theology.
  • Curses themselves have no power unless there’s demonic cooperation or the victim “opens the door” (e.g., by sin).
  • Reassurance:

    “A lot of the worry about it, I think, is more superstitious than rooted in sound Catholic theology.” — Joe (38:54)

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6. Martyrdom: Who Qualifies?

Caller: Steven (42:24)

• Question: What are the criteria for being recognized as a martyr for Christ?
• Joe’s Response:
  • Martyr = witness of the faith; classic example is death in hatred of the faith (odium fidei).
  • Some cases are clear (e.g., killed for professing Christ); others are by association (Holy Innocents, or those killed for living Christian virtues like chastity).
  • Recent church practice: Pope Francis recognized Coptic Christians killed by ISIS as martyrs despite not being Catholic, due to their clear witness to Christ.
  • Gray areas exist if person is not Catholic—Church may not formally recognize, but acknowledges possible martyrdom.

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7. The Efficacy of the Eucharist: Why Don’t All Grow in Grace?

In-Studio Question: Grace (47:11)

• Question: Why do some receive the Eucharist for years with no visible spiritual benefit?
• Joe’s Response:
  • Sacraments work “ex opere operato” (by the work done) but are received “according to the mode of the receiver.”
  • Disposition matters; like water flowing to a house, but the homeowner controls the faucet.
  • Historical example: Judas receives the Last Supper but still betrays Jesus.
  • St. Paul warns of unworthy reception causing harm.
  • Personal openness, desire, and cooperation with grace are vital.
  • Analogy:

    "It's like having the tap on your sink or the light switch...you can block the working of divine grace." — Joe (48:16)

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8. Salvation Outside Full Visible Church Membership

Caller: Scott (50:24)

• Question: What is the Catholic stance on salvation for those in other Christian communities who confess the Nicene Creed?
• Joe’s Response:
  • Catholic teaching: all baptized are incorporated into the Body of Christ, not just Catholics.
  • Salvation isn’t a theology quiz—it’s about real communion, openness, and not refusing grace knowingly.
  • The Church distinguishes between those who willfully reject its claims and those who are honestly mistaken.
  • Purgatory is not an “eternal destination”; some non-Catholics may be saved, passing through purgatory or directly to heaven, per God’s mercy.
  • Encourages continued inquiry and discernment.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Election:

  “We can't invite ourselves to the wedding feast ... There are no wedding crashers at the wedding feast of the lamb.” — Joe (07:55)

• On the Incarnation:

  "God being perfect, is complete in himself. He doesn't change. But what happens in the Incarnation isn’t a change in the divine perfection." — Joe (16:24-17:28)

• On Curses:

  "Curses can have a negative effect in one context, but a lot of the worry about it, I think, is more superstitious than rooted in sound Catholic theology." — Joe (38:54)

• On the Efficacy of the Eucharist:

  "You can block the working of divine grace ... those graces are still right there on offer for us, just to tune in and say yes." — Joe (48:16)

• On Martyrdom:

  "All of that properly understood, is martyrdom, because all of that involves a hatred of the faith, sometimes more overtly and sometimes just they hate the things the faith stands for." — Joe (44:03)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Parable of the Wedding Feast and Election: 04:26 – 08:47
• The Incarnation & Change in God: 11:01 – 17:28
• Typology: John as the Eagle: 17:46 – 22:46
• Confirmation Saints Discussion: 23:32 – 31:39
• Family Curses & Demonic Activity: 33:46 – 39:56
• Martyrdom Criteria: 42:24 – 46:56
• Eucharist and Disposition: 47:11 – 49:47
• Salvation and Non-Catholic Christians: 50:24 – 54:32

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Tone & Style Notes

• The show blends serious apologetics with light, engaging banter, especially with high school students present.
• Joe Heschmeyer offers analogies, scriptural citations, and distinctions between theological concepts.
• The mood lightens especially in discussions about obscure saints and Wikipedia.
• Care is taken to clarify distinctions for non-specialist listeners, maintaining respect for inquirers of all backgrounds.

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Summary for Non-Listeners

This episode provides thoughtful, balanced explanations of challenging Catholic doctrines and practices, dispelling misconceptions around family curses, the Incarnation, and the limits of the sacraments. Listeners are encouraged to embrace God’s mercy, appreciate the Church’s rich tradition, and pursue their faith with both seriousness and joy. The inclusion of student questions adds educational depth and a sense of community to the broadcast.

Transcript

[A]

Buying or selling your home. Real Estate for Life can connect you with a pro life real estate agent. When Real Estate for Life receives a referral fee, they donate 65% to Catholic Answers. Learn more at realestateforlife.org hello, and welcome to Catholic Answers Live. Hi, I'm Psy Kellett, your host. It's Ask Me Anything this hour, and both hours are with Joe Heschmeyer. So here's your chance.

[B]

Oh, look at that.

[A]

Three out of our six lines already full. I just started talking in three out of the six lines. Did I even say the phone number yet? I don't even think I said it. 888-318-7884. You know who we would like to call? Anybody. Whether you're Catholic or not, whether you're a believer of any kind or not. If you've got a question about the Catholic faith and you'd like to Talk with Joe Heschmeyer. 888-318-7884. Joe's podcast is Shameless Popery. And it's wild to me how many people. Joe hasn't been doing shameless potpourri for, like, 30 years. So many people, when I go out and give a talk anywhere will be like, man, I just love that Joe Heschmeyer shameless Popery thing. And I always say the same thing. You're talking to the wrong person. I don't want to hear anything good about Joe. Joe Heschmeyer, welcome.

[B]

It's so nice to be here.

[A]

Is it? You sounded not entirely sure about that. Man, people love them. Some shameless potpourri.

[B]

Thank you. Yeah, we just had a milestone. Just crossed 50,000. The goal was to hit 50,000 by the end of March. And sometime between when I went to bed on the last day of March, when I woke up on April Fool's Day, we crossed that 50,000 threshold. So that felt really good.

[A]

Congratulations. That is fantastic. How long have you been doing it? I mean, I know you did it as a. As a blog for a long time, but I mean, yeah, as a blog.

[B]

In 2009, as a YouTube channel. We're on episode 159. Some of those were weekly. Some of those were two a week. Yeah. So there's math in there. I want to say we started. So we actually started audio only. December of. I should know this. 2020, Dec, 3, 2022. Something in there. And then. And then took off like 13 episodes later, like 13 weeks later doing the video in YouTube.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you want to talk, Joe. 888-318-7,8,84. Just one line open now. And so why do people love it so much? I mean, is it because just, just, you know, I know you probably have would like to say some of these.

[B]

Oh, yeah. I mean, I think it's fair to say people in general have bad taste. So if I'm, if I'm gonna just gratuitously insult my own viewers. No, I'm kidding. I think the nice thing about the show is I'm able to do a deep dive on topics that we don't always get to, you know. And, you know, this is a little faster paced of a format and so, you know, it makes sense. It wasn't.

[A]

When you were trying to think of that.

[B]

It wasn't. Oh, yeah, no, it's true.

[A]

It got very slow paced for a minute.

[B]

It's happening so fast. Fast. Someone was complaining that we do too much banter again. So I don't know if we want to go back to the show.

[A]

Onto the show we go.

[B]

Then.

[A]

888-318-7884. When he says someone was complaining, it was probably a relative of his. So on we go rinky.

[B]

Not this time.

[A]

No, it wasn't.

[B]

Somebody online, on Facebook.

[A]

Oh, Facebook.

[B]

Really?

[A]

If you, if you, if you, if you, if your life was a response to the things people say on Facebook, you'd be a very unhappy person.

[B]

That's true. Although I think you can be a very unhappy person. Anyway.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. I've managed for years. Ricky in Bellevue, Nebraska, watching on Catholic.com. welcome back. Ricky, go ahead with your question for Joe.

[C]

Hey, thanks, guys. And I'll just settle the debate right now. People like shameless potpourri because you never know what type of shirt Joe is going to wear each episode.

[A]

Yes. So very good.

[B]

That's good. I appreciate clearing that up right now.

[A]

Right. His range of shirts is amazing. It goes from astonishing all the way to alarming.

[B]

It's been a very fine line between those two.

[A]

Yeah. All right, go ahead, Ricky.

[B]

Amen.

[C]

Yes, thanks, guys. So, Joe, I wanted to ask. It's more of a Bible question, but I wanted to get your opinion on it. When we talked about election, oftentimes people will look at Paul's writings in regards to election, and rightly so, because he talks about it. But could we say, would it be crazy to say that Jesus's view of election is perfectly, maybe not perfectly, but like the surface is beginning to be scratched in his parable of the great wedding feast?

[B]

Yeah. Oh, go ahead.

[C]

Sorry, I was just going to say I'VE been kind of, you know, reading a lot of the Church Father's commentaries on that, and it seems to fit very well with the idea of election. So that.

[B]

That was it. Yeah. So understand it through the lens of covenant as well. So if you remember in the parable of the wedding feast, in Matthew 22, the original guests don't want to come. And this is referring to those who are unfaithful in Israel. And St. Paul is going to refer to them as well in Romans, when he talks about the branches that are unfaithful and are broken off. And then the response is, the king invites other people, just like random people seemingly from the street, and invites them to the wedding banquet. And so this is the engrafting of the Gentiles. I think it's very clear to see how the theology of Romans lines up neatly with Matthew 22. Now it might be a little less clear how the theology of Romans and of Matthew 22 lines up with certain Protestant views that you can never fall away or be rejected. Both because you have St. Paul explicitly talking about branches broken off because of unbelief. And then Also in Matthew 22, you've got those who are called, and then you have one instance in particular where a guy shows up without the wedding garment and then he's kicked out, and so you can lose your membership in the wedding feast. Now, all of this should be understood in, like I said, covenantal language. So the chief motif through which the covenant is described in terms of imagery in the Old Testament is God's union with Israel being likened to bridegroom and bride. And Jesus is using this same thing in describing the creation of the new covenant. And, you know, he's the bridegroom and the church is his bride. And of course, we find this on all over Paul, especially in Ephesians, but significantly, in that, you know, the two stages of a Jewish wedding, the second stage, the consummation, is you come to live with the bridegroom as the bride, and then you have a giant wedding feast. And this is what Jesus is referring to in John 14 when he says, I go before you to prepare a place for you, that where I am, you may be also. And so this is like, that's what's going on here. It is. It is election being called. So this word for election comes from this. This idea, or this idea comes from. To be called klatos in Greek. And it is sometimes used in different ways. So I think the one word of warning, I would say, is the thematic continuity between Matthew 22 and the epistle to the Romans is that God is the one who calls. We can refuse his call. We can accept it and then lose it. We can reject it. You know, we can do all that, but we can't invite ourselves to the wedding feast. We can say, no, we can't give ourselves an invitation. There are no wedding crashers at the wedding feast of the lamb. But the one point I would mark in terms of a dissimilarity is actually the way the word Kleitos is being used in both cases. Because Paul refers to a certain kind of election that, you know, those he foreknows, he predestines that kind of election. Whereas Jesus, when he says many are called and fewer chosen, he's actually using the same word for election. But it would be very hard to square that with this, the way Paul uses that word. So Jesus and Paul seem to be using the same word in different contexts, but both of them are referring to however and to whatever you're called. God is the one who does the calling.

[A]

All right, Ricky.

[C]

Okay. Yeah, no, thanks. Thanks for showing those distinctions, Joe. I appreciate it.

[B]

Yeah, you bet.

[A]

Thanks, Ricky. That'll take us a perfect time for a break. We'll be right back with more Ask Me Anything with Joe Heschmeyer on Catholic Answers Live. Hang on. Catholic Answers LIVE will return in a moment. Are you a coffee drinker? If so, you can now enjoy a coffee roasted to perfection by the Carmelite monks of Wyoming. Delicious Mystic Monk coffee is roasted and prepared by monks in a hidden cloister monastery and is available in over 25 varieties. All Mystic Monk coffees are works of perfection and labors of love. For more information on how to purchase Mystic Monk coffee, visit mysticmonk coffee.com that's mysticmonkcoffee.com.

[D]

Underwriting for Catholic Answers Live is.

[A]

Provided by Real Estate for Life.

[B]

Real Estate for Life connects home buyers.

[D]

And sellers to real estate agents while.

[B]

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[A]

On the [e-mail] proclaiming the faith changing.

[C]

Lives the year was 1998. While praying the rosary with Paula Albertini.

[A]

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[C]

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[D]

The healing is real.

[A]

To learn more about Mother Angelica's life in the history of EWTN, visit ewtn.com motherangelica. Welcome back to Catholic Answers Live. Joe Heschmeyer is our guest and it's Ask me anything you can call. Call up 888-318788, 4, 1, line open. You can ask anything you want or you can come into the studio. And Evelia came into the studio with her. Is it the whole class that came? It's the Senior class from St. Joseph's.

[D]

Yeah, I think it's everybody.

[A]

Everybody? You think everybody's here?

[B]

All right.

[A]

And you have a question for Joe?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Are you scared, Joe, or are you ready to take a question from Avelia?

[B]

I guess we'll see what avails.

[A]

Okay, nice. He, that's constant. Don't take that personally. He's constantly making puns. All right, right up to the microphone. Go ahead and ask your question.

[D]

Okay, so this is just more. I've never been able to understand it and I've looked into it before. I just can't get an answer that I understand. How is the Incarnation not a change?

[B]

The Incarnation is a change, but not in God. So in his divinity he remains entirely the same. He takes the human nature and unites it to himself in a way that defies our understanding. So this isn't the same way. But you, when you became a child of God through baptism, have the indwelling of God within you. And so you change in relationship to God, but God doesn't change. So, you know, one of the ways I've sometimes heard this described is like when you look at an object, something changes within you. You know, you've received the light waves and you might, you know, your eyes might dilate or any number, so you actually change. But the object doesn't change. Unless we're talking about like the microscopic, like sub microscopic level, the object doesn't change just by being looked at. So we can talk about a change happening on one end and not the other. And so God and his divinity is unchanged and unchanging in his humanity. Jesus changes. I mean literally his humanity comes into existence. So it has the ultimate change of non existing and then existing. And so it's united to God and so united that there is one person. But the two natures remain distinct. The divine nature is always the same. The human nature didn't exist and then comes into being. And so one thing changes the human nature and one thing doesn't, the divine nature. Does that help? I know, it's mind blowing, admittedly, I guess.

[D]

Then how can the human nature change without changing the divine nature?

[B]

Yeah. So in his divinity, God remains the same. He doesn't learn anything new. He doesn't change his mind on anything. In his divinity there's nothing like that. So when Jesus is learning as a child, there is A real mode of human learning that's going on in the human brain that he has inside his head. But it is not as if the God of the universe suddenly learned some new facts in his divinity that he didn't possess before. That is a very difficult thing for us to get our minds around. Tim Staples gives an analogy that might be helpful, that I have at least found helpful, which is you can tell your kids, you know, don't put your hand on the burner, and they can know in one way that that's true. And then they can have an experiential knowledge by putting their hand on the burner they didn't have before. So in his humanity, Jesus is. Is learning things, but in his divinity, he already possesses the fullness of everything infinitely perfectly. He's the source of all knowledge and of all truth. So it is a hard thing to imagine how one person can possess both of those qualities or criteria. But it seems clear from Scripture both that he is the God of the universe and a child growing up in Nazareth.

[A]

So just. Can I follow up? Avelia, is that all right? Because as I'm listening, it strikes me.

[B]

That.

[A]

A person and a nature are two different things. But it's.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I should have probably explained.

[A]

That it's hard to make that distinction. Like, as I'm kind of processing what you're saying, and I'm watching Avelia processing what you're saying, or actually watching both of us not processing it very well. Would that be fair?

[B]

Let me take another stab at things. Yeah, yeah. A nature is what you are and a person is who you are. Now, what makes this tricky is that even though we can sort of intellectually distinguish those things, we are one who and one what. And so we don't normally distinguish between those things, There are occasionally works of fiction that play around with that idea. So Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, where there's one body with two kind of persons within it, or Freaky Friday, if you've ever read the book or watched any of the movies that were adapted from it, where the mother and daughter switch bodies, there's some sense in which bodily it is obviously the same as it had been before, but something has changed at an interior level of personality. And so those are obviously imperfect examples. But I'm just meant to highlight the fact that who you are and what you are aren't the same. Does. Does that part at least make sense? That the who and what are different? Yes. Okay, we're both going to say.

[A]

Yes, I'm going to say yes. Even though I'm not entirely clear.

[B]

I mean, look, obviously when we're dealing with these, there are going to be limits where we can say, okay, we can intellectually go so far, but none of us have experienced a hypostatic union. We don't know what it feels like to be God and man at the same time. And, you know, that's just the unfortunate limitation of not being God, I guess.

[A]

Veilya, when you go back out there, will you just tell them all easier questions? Just tell them, don't let him.

[B]

Don't let him mess with me.

[D]

I don't think they have easier things planned.

[A]

I know there are.

[B]

You're all.

[A]

This is a very smart group and St. Joseph's is a really good high school. So they're not going to give you.

[B]

No, this is wonderful.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That God from all eternity has planned the incarnation. And so it's not even a change at the level of intent within God. This is something that is part of the divine plan from all ages. Like, literally at the moment Adam and Eve fall in Genesis 3, God foretells the virgin birth in Genesis 3:15. And so this isn't like we don't want to imagine a world in which God changes his mind or his personality or anything like this, because that would be to do a disservice to God, because if you change, you're typically changing for the better or the worse. And if God changes for the worse and he's no longer good, if he's changing for the better, then he wasn't good before. The notion of perfect includes the notion of being complete. And so God being perfect, is complete in himself. He doesn't change. But what happens in the incarnation isn't a change in the divine perfection. What happens in the incarnation is that the eternal who, Jesus Christ, or the second person of the Trinity, takes on a new what or a new what is taken to that person.

[A]

Evelia, that is where we will leave it. Thank you very much for coming in.

[D]

Thank you.

[A]

Yeah, it was nice to have. Oh, look at all your classmates are applauding for you out there. We can't hear you in here, but thank you. All right, on we go. Thanks, Amelia. Cesar's in Odessa, Texas, listening on the Catholic Answers Live app. Caesar, welcome. Go ahead with your question for Joe.

[C]

Hey, Joe. Hey, Si. Big fan, especially of your last episode, Joe.

[B]

Thank you.

[C]

I got a question regarding typology. There's a lot of little moving parts, so hopefully I don't confuse myself. Okay, I'll start off with on the Cross. Jesus gives John to Mary and gives Mary to John. Mary is also symbolized in. As the woman in Revelation 12. Or is the woman in Revelation 12 which Mary also symbolizes the church. This part isn't necessarily biblical, but it's, I guess, well known that the Gospel of John is symbolized as the eagle compared to the other gospels, which are the lion, ox and man. And I guess to my point, the woman, I guess. And in Revelations, the woman grows eight eagle wings and flies to safety when being chased by the serpent. Can these eagle wings be a type of John who is given. Who is given Mary from Jesus and takes her to safety and which enhance, I guess, John representing the priest also to protect the church, which is Mary.

[B]

Is that, you know, that's, that's really a beautiful image. And I think that it can be pretty well defended. So I'm going to actually build on what you're arguing there. The first is that in Revelation chapter four, we have the first mention of the four living creatures. And so we're told that around the throne there are four living creatures full of eyes in front and behind. The first living creature like a lion, the second like an ox, the third with the face of a man, and the fourth living creature like a flying eagle. And there are different ways that this is understood. A lot of people today will think that literally refers to four, you know, beings in heaven. But the early Christians actually understood this to be a reference to the four Gospels. And so we find this actually as far back as we find references to the four Gospels. St. Irenaeus talks about this, and there were different attempts to figure out which of the four are which. And I think that the best explanation, and I don't remember offhand whether it was Leo or Gregory or somebody else who argues for this, but it's that you can tell which ones are which by looking at the beginnings of the Gospels. So the first one is like a lion. And so you have John the Baptist crying out like a lion in the wilderness in Mark 1. The second is like an ox, which is the priestly sacrificial offering. Luke 1 begins with the priest Zechariah. The third living creature is with the face of a man. Matthew 1 begins with Jesus. Human genealogy. And the fourth living creature is like a flying eagle. And if you read John's Gospel, it is the soaring divinity. It is in the beginning was the Word, and the Word is with God. And the Word was God. And then the Word becomes flesh and dwelt among us. So you have kind of the eagle's descent to the earth and so understood that way. That's. You'll often find that in art, this is rooted in Scripture and how the early Christians read Scripture. So if that read is correct, and obviously we're doing a little bit of theological work there, John doesn't tell us that's what that means, but it makes sense that it's not referring to four literal creatures because the imagery is drawn from Ezekiel. But you'll notice if you read Ezekiel 1, that they don't match. Like the four images of the four living creatures in Ezekiel 1 don't match the four living creatures in Revelation. So it's on the one hand a callback to Ezekiel. On the other hand, John is doing something different in the presentation. Now, I would, I would refer you to something like the Supper of the Lamb by Scott Hahn for how the Book of Revelation should be read liturgically, that this is a book that, as Revelation 1 points out, is to be read in a kind of church setting. So you'll notice in Revelation 1:3, it says, Blessed is he who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear. So this presupposes you're reading this out in the ecclesial context, somebody is reading it and you're listening to them. We don't often read Revelation that way, and so we miss some of the liturgical dimension to the book. But this is one of those signs. So if that's right, then you flash forward to Revelation chapter 12 and you have the mother of Jesus being depicted. And the mother of Jesus can refer here to Israel in the church and also to Mary. And so then when you have the eagle in the role of protecting the woman, this refers to both the sense that, you know, this is an image of divine protection. In Exodus, God talks about bringing the Israelites out of Egypt on eagle's wings as an image of divine protection. But it can also be, and I think it's right to at least speculate, that there's probably a connection here about the role of John himself in terms of protecting the woman who gave birth to Jesus. Because in John 19, we see he's clearly entrusted with doing that.

[C]

All right, Cesar, Jeff, that's perfect. Thank you for that. And I had another question regarding Scott Hahn's book, but I'll call back a different day. I'm late to family dinner at my in laws, so that sounds good.

[B]

We're about to go into the break.

[A]

Well, we have an entire senior class in here with us too, so both of us occupied at the moment. So thank you, Cesar, very much for the call. Josh and Des Plaines, is that correct? Do they say the S. Des Plaines in Missouri? Des Plaines, Missouri. Listening on the Catholic Answers Live app. Do you say the S there, Josh?

[C]

It's West Plains.

[A]

Oh, that's what I was going to say, but that's just not what was written in front of me. All right, total failure here in the Catholic Answer studios. Go ahead with your question, Josh.

[C]

You should be happy about this side. Should be an easier question to answer.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And it's pertaining to picking a patron saint for your confirmation? Yes, I'm in Ocia and I'll be joining, formally accepted into the church this Easter.

[A]

Beautiful. Congratulations, Josh.

[C]

Thank you. Thank you. So I'd like to know, is there any guidelines or rules about how you pick a patron saint? And the reason I'm asking is.

[B]

Go ahead. No, no, go ahead. You were about to ask something. I apologize. Yeah.

[C]

The reason I'm asking is because I've researched the saint on the day I was baptized, and his story really stuck out to me. But it's on the Vatican website. But he's not recognized or canonized by the church formally, but he's just like, I guess in the medieval times he was recognized as a saint, if that makes sense.

[A]

Oh, that counts. Yeah. Can you tell us the language?

[C]

Saint Wulfric the miracle worker.

[A]

Dude, that would be the best confirmation. If you go up there and they go, I confirm you, Wulfric the miracle maker, you win. You basically win Easter. If you get that.

[B]

Is that the same as Wulfric of Hasselbury?

[A]

Oh, I always get my Wulfricks confused, Joe. I cannot keep my Wulfric straight.

[B]

Fair. Fair. I mean, I think that he is. So there are what are pre. Congregation saints who were just declared saints by kind of popular acclaim. They didn't go through the official process because the official process didn't exist yet. And so, no, those are still a lot of. There are plenty of saint names, but are kind of in that category, technically. The whole requirement to pick a confirmation name isn't something that's found in canon law. It's a pious practice, and so it's not something the church regulates. It's a good thing. And they will, you know, in the. In the right. You'll often be asked by the bishop what name you take, but it isn't one of those things where, you know, some people, when they got confirmed, didn't take a new name and they feel like they were missing out on something. There's nothing that you know, the sacrament's still the sacrament in both cases, but it's a good practice.

[A]

Josh, I wish you, if you, if you could, would hang on through the break because I want to know what your backup plan is. If it's not Wulfric the Miracle Worker, who's the saint that you're going to pick? Well, if you can hang on, we'll find out right after this on Catholic Answers Live. We hope that one of the things that we communicate here at Catholic Answers Live is that our Catholic faith allows us to be fully serious about all the problems we encounter in the church and in the world. But it also lets us have light hearts and maybe even mix in a bit of fun. And that is exactly what our good friend Joe Heschmeyer does in his popular podcast Shameless Potpourri. You should check it [e-mail] Joe's got a deep grasp of the faith, morals, the teachings of the Church, all that, but he's also got a witty conversational style. He entertains and he informs, but you will leave equipped to better answer the most common challenges, misconceptions and questions about the Catholic faith. He's got insightful guests he does on air debates, and he takes a close look into all the things that you want to know about as a Catholic living today. You'll walk away knowledgeable and fit, filled with joy. Look for Joe on his YouTube channel. Check him [e-mail] or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you hear, become a patron.

[D]

Our Lord needs articulate defenders of the truth to spread the joy of the Catholic faith. Catholic Answers monthly giving club society 3:15 helps you fulfill the call in first Peter 3:15 to always be prepared to make a defense for the hope that is in you. For as little as $10 a month, you'll help Catholics grow in faith, bring lapsed Catholics home and lead non Catholics to the truth. Go to Casociety315.com and join today.

[A]

Each Catholic is obliged to spread and defend the faith by word and deed. Well, we're here to help. Join special guests Chris Stefanik, Dr. David Anders, Fr. Jeff Kirby, and all your favorite Catholic ANSwers apologists this 9-25-28th in June San Diego for the Catholic Answers Conference. Our theme Go Make Disciples Enjoy four days of faith fun and fellowship. Use promo code early to save $50 when you register today at CatholicAnswersConference.com.

[B]

On.

[A]

Thursday's Take Two with Jerry and Debbie. Our topic is have you Friended yourself?

[C]

Not on social media, but in life.

[B]

Do you like the person you are?

[C]

And now back to Catholic Answers Live.

[A]

Welcome back to Catholic Answers Live. Joe Heschmeyer is our guest. It's Ask Me Anything this hour. The lines have stayed quite full and we have a full studio full of students from St. Joseph's Academy about 25 miles up the road from us. They were kind enough to come in and spend part of their day with us. And so it's a busy day. That's all I'm saying. It's a busy day, but I wanted to go back to Josh in one of my favorite towns, West Plains, Missouri. I've always loved that town. He's trying to decide on his confirmation name. First of all, I have to give you a book because you're coming into the church. We have to give you a congratulatory gift, Josh. But if you don't pick Wulfric the Miracle Worker, first of all, I'm not going to like you anymore if you don't pick it. But if you don't pick it, what's. What's plan B?

[C]

Well, you know, there's so many great saints to pick from, but it's gonna have to be either between St. Leo of Antonia or St. Honoris, I think is, how you say it, Honorius.

[A]

Honorius, yes. One of the popes.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Was I. I don't know. I'd have to reread it.

[A]

I've read so much, it's so you're not really.

[B]

I don't think he means Honorius. I don't think that guy is anyone's idea of a saint.

[A]

Oh, is he the one that was. He was the anti pope and then.

[B]

Honorius was just condemned for not being hard enough on the theological controversies around Arianism.

[A]

I'm not so good with the Ariane. I have to be clear with you, Josh. The saints that you're saying are not exactly the most well known saints, although they have some of the coolest names. So I'm just going to strongly chat.

[B]

Nea, how are you finding these saints? I'm very impressed.

[A]

The church has lists.

[C]

Well, I was looking at the list on the Vatican website for my birthday and the day of my baptism. I figured those would be the appropriate days.

[A]

That's very smart. Well, would you like one of Joe's books? I'll send you one of his books. He's got a whole bunch of them.

[C]

Of course I would.

[A]

All right, how about. I think it would be nice to have. The Eucharist is really Jesus, since you're coming into the church to full communion with the church. But I'll tell you what, if you want a different one, tell Edgar. And if.

[B]

Can I. Can I ask him a real quick question?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is the date you're looking for February 20th?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Is there another saint?

[B]

Saint Jacinta, one of the Fatima seers, but definitely the most famous, I think February 20th.

[A]

So he would have to. He would have to put an O at the end row. He would have to go with.

[B]

I mean, he could go with just.

[A]

Oh, yeah, you can. I guess that was silly of me. I don't know what I was thinking, but I'm just trying to.

[C]

It's also Francisco's feast day, isn't it?

[B]

I think it is, but it was Jacinta's death day. Yeah.

[A]

Before you called, I had never heard of Wulfric the Miracle Worker. And he's now my third favorite saint right now at this moment, after St. Peter and St. Joan, he's my third favorite saint. So I hope you'll pick it. But hang on, we'll send you a book. Okay, Josh, I was going to say.

[B]

Mary's turning in her grave.

[C]

Does that fall under the purview of sacred tradition then? That they're not officially canonized?

[A]

Oh, that's a good point, Joe, if you would answer that. So Wulfric doesn't have an actual canonization date?

[B]

Yeah, well, some of the saints are on the calendar. I mean, there's different levels to people being on the calendar. Some of the pre, like official process kind of saints still have days on the calendar because the church recognizes this person, lived a holy life. And we. You don't need an actual process to be like, is St. Peter in heaven? Yeah, we know he is. We don't need to go through the congregation of saints to know that. So, yeah, those things. I think it's fair to say there's some sense in which the Holy Spirit guiding the church through history, but the church doesn't claim that they're infallible. For the pre congregation saints, it's a more disputed question once the Pope starts using his own authority in that regard. But it is at least kind of the general consensus belief that these people are holy, they lived exemplary lives and so on.

[A]

Thank you, Josh, and please call back and let us know what name you chose when Joe's on sometime. Usually Wednesdays with Joe. So call us on a Wednesday. But hang on, we'll send you one of Joe's books. Maybe the Eucharist is really Jesus Scarlet's in studio. She's one of the students here with us from St. Joseph's Academy. Scarlett, a question for you. Before you ask your question. Had you ever heard of Wulfric the Miracle Worker before, or was this your first exposure?

[D]

I just heard of him. Did I?

[A]

You're definitely going to Wikipedia this when you get home, right? Oh, yeah.

[B]

Wikipedia. What?

[D]

Wikipedia.

[A]

Oh, gosh, that was. I'm so low class in Scarlet's eyes right now.

[B]

She's like, Wikipedia for the source of information.

[A]

Right. All right, Scarlet, go ahead with your question for Joe.

[B]

We needed a new host. Scarlett, I think you're the natural.

[A]

Well, I sulk over here. What's your confirmation name, by the way?

[B]

Mary.

[A]

Oh, I was gonna make fun of your confirmation name, but now I can't. I'm not winning any arguments today, Scarlett, so you should probably just ask your question and I'll sit quietly. Go ahead.

[D]

Okay. So my question was, do you think it's, like, real or possible that people could encounter demonic activity or, like. Yeah, just, like, encounters. If someone puts, like, a family curse on someone, like, if someone, like, curses you in a way, is that real?

[B]

Yeah. It's a tricky thing. This is something the church hasn't spoken on in a definitive sort of way. And I think there. There are certain boundaries we have to watch out for, because some of the beliefs in generational curses and the like appear to deny the effectiveness of things like baptism. And we. You know, Isaiah 1, verse 18, come now, let us reason together, says the Lord. Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow. Though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool. So there is this sense in which God actually heals us of. Because there. I mean, I guess the first sense, we can talk about a sort of ancestral sin with original sin.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

But original sin is not what's called personal sin. You didn't do it. It is rather the disorder that exists because of the first sin of our first parents. So we want to believe in that. That's clearly true. It's taught by the church and right there in scripture, in places like Romans 5 and 2nd. I think we see it as well. But the second thing we need to believe in is that the effects of parents and of others can have a negative effect on you. So if your parents are involved in all sorts of, like, evil stuff, you can suffer for it. And there's obvious ways once you can suffer for it, you know, at a physical level, if, you know, your. Your mom's doing hard drugs while she's pregnant with you. You might suffer for it as a baby.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Not in a sense of punishment, and we're gonna get to that in a second.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

But then there's another question about kind of the spiritual effects. And it certainly seems like some spiritual effects we can't deny. You know, if you grew up in a house where there's demonic stuff going on, the idea that you're not going to be harmed by that seems patently untrue.

[D]

Right.

[B]

What we want to watch out for, where there has to be a really hard and fast guardrail, is that there is no sense of you being punished for the sins of your parents. And in those senses, you might suffer for it. You. You might be harmed by it. One of the reasons sin is sinful is it hurts your neighbor. Right. But there is the. This saying that both Ezekiel 18 and Jeremiah 31 talk about, and it's this idea that the saying was, the fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge. In other words, you did something bad, and so your kids are paying for it. And Jesus seems to push back against that pretty clearly in John 9 with the man born blind. He also pushes back against it in Jeremiah 31, which says, Everyone shall die for his own sin. Each man who eats sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on. On edge. That it's not going to be your kids who are paying the consequences for your alienation from God. It's going to be you. They might be harmed by it, but they're not going to be the ones who are held accountable for it by God. So we want to have that clear kind of delineation. But, yeah, there are ways in which, you know, if you were, particularly in an immediate family context, if you've got family members who are opening doors to unholy gateways, that can cause some real damage. But if it's something like 10 generations ago, somebody did something, and so now you think you have to say these special prayers. That's not coming from Catholicism.

[D]

Right.

[B]

That's an idea that's kind of seeped in from Protestantism that doesn't have a good foundation in scripture or tradition.

[D]

Great.

[A]

All right, Scarlett, go ahead.

[B]

Go ahead.

[D]

When, like, what. What happens if someone, like today, like, modern society, someone's like, oh, I don't like you. I'm going to put a curse on you and your family? Like, does that have, like, any effect at all?

[B]

It doesn't seem like it that, you know, blessings God has real power. But a curse, I guess I put it in A little more of a. It's a little more nuanced. It can, in one sense, like, people can actually use malevolent forces if they have, like, contact with the occult in ways that can do harm to people. But again, not moral harm. Not like, you're not. You're not going to suffer for it. And I wouldn't worry about it excessively, by which I mean, like, your neighbor could also do physical harm to you, like, in a much more direct way. They could just, like, pull out a weapon.

[D]

Right.

[B]

And so, like, we live in a world in which we're not immune from the evil actions of our neighbors because we are all one family as humans. And. And so we are. We're bound up in this together in good and bad ways. But I wouldn't. I wouldn't worry excessively about that. I can't. I mean. Yes. I guess 1. The short answer is yes. Curses can have a negative effect in one context, but a lot of the worry about it, I think, is more superstitious than rooted in sound Catholic theology.

[A]

Have people been cursing you?

[B]

No.

[A]

You feel okay? All right.

[D]

Yeah, I'm good.

[A]

Because we'll talk to them. Thank you.

[B]

Scarlett.

[A]

Did you see how he worked your name into his answer?

[D]

I did.

[A]

I saw that. That's Joe. He's always. He's thoughtful that way.

[D]

My name comes up a lot in the Bible. Revelations.

[A]

It ain't Gone with the Wind.

[B]

Yeah, that's true. Hawthorne also.

[A]

Yeah, right. Scarlet Letter. Yeah, the Scarlet Letter.

[B]

Spoiler alert. It's a.

[A]

Wait. Do they teach you in school that don't look things up on. On Wikipedia? Oh, yeah, they do. Because it's not a reliable source.

[D]

Yeah, right.

[B]

All right.

[A]

I feel it. Where's the teacher? I just want to apologize to the teacher. I'm sorry that I said Wikipedia. Oh, the teacher's not even here?

[D]

No. Where'd she go? I don't know. Oh, no, she's right there. We don't use Wikipedia. Right.

[A]

I apologize for that. What's Your teacher's name?

[D]

Mrs. Brain.

[B]

Oh, Mrs.

[A]

Brain. I apologize. I was misleading the students.

[B]

I thought you said Mrs. Brain. I was really impressed.

[A]

Oh, if your teacher was named Mrs. Brain, that's even better than Wulfric the Miracle Worker. All right, we gotta take a quick break. Scarlett, thank you for coming in back with more Ask Me Anything with Joe Heschmeier on Catholic Answers Live. They're clapping.

[D]

Hang on.

[A]

We'll be right back with more Catholic Answers Live. The catechism defines evangelization as the proclamation of Christ and his gospel by word and the testimony of life. But what does that look like in real life? It looks like St. Paul street evangelists out in the public square sharing the good news. We're a Catholic nonprofit that starts conversations by handing out free sacramentals. Then we employ our method of listen, befriend, proclaim and invite. Catholic Answers is supported in part by St. Paul Street Evangelization. Visit streetevangelization.com to learn more. Another great podcast on EWTN Podcast Central is Catholic Review Radio. It's a weekly radio program and podcast featuring newsmakers, authors, entertainers and Catholic leaders from the Archdiocese of Baltimore and around the world. You can hear this and other faith filled podcasts at EWTN podcast central, visit ewtn.com radio and click on Podcast Central today. Welcome back to Catholic Answers Live. It's so busy here, I've hardly had a chance to get to the ad, so I'll just do the ad real quick. I'll just tell you. Look, Joe's going, Chris is going. I'm going to. Lots of wonderful people have already signed up for the big Catholic Answers Rhine Cruise next year, May 2nd through the 14th cruise from Amsterdam to Basel. I think. I think that's where we end up. Basel. Or is it Basel? Do we end up in Basel or Basel? Joe, do you know?

[B]

I think we'll probably end up in Florence as a 15th century joke. If anyone gets it, the Council of.

[A]

Basel was actually in Florence.

[B]

It started in Basel and moved.

[A]

That's even better. When you do bilingual puns. When you do medieval jokes. Yeah, you're gonna have to be proficient in medieval history to get this, but it's hilarious.

[B]

Entering middle age, I think. So it only makes sense.

[A]

If you want more information, go to catholic.com cruise just go to catholic.com cruise we would love it if you would come. The whole ship is Catholic Answers and it'll fill up soon. So check it out. Catholic. No, excuse me, catholic.com cruise it's ask me Anything. We're going out to San Antonio, Texas, where Stephen is listening on the Guadalupe Radio Network. Awful glad you're here, Steven. Go ahead with your question for Joe.

[C]

Yeah, my question is this. I heard you bring up a man, a missionary a couple of weeks ago and he went to the Canary Islands and was killed. He was trying to preach the gospel. I was just wondering, is he considered, what does it take to be considered a martyr for Christ? What is the criteria?

[A]

Oh, that's it. I think that guy nailed it. Go ahead, Joe.

[B]

Yeah, so there's a couple factors within that. The catechism talks about a martyr as a witness for the faith. Let's leave what the word martyr means. And so there is a sense of you dying for Christ. Now, there's some cases in which that's very obvious. Somebody just says, I hate Catholicism, I'm going to kill Catholics, and you are a Catholic, and you die. But there are more complicated cases as well, like the holy innocence. In one sense, of course, they're dying because of Christ, but they're not saying, we believe in Jesus and dying in that way. Nevertheless, the Church still regards them as martyrs. There's an important element in this is what's called the odium fidei, the hatred of the faith. So you die because somebody hates the faith. And sometimes they hate the faith because of the strict doctrinal content. You know, like they don't believe Jesus is Jesus. And other times it's because they hate, for instance, the virtues with chastity. So St Charles Lwanga won't engage in homosexual behavior, and so he and the other Ugandan martyrs are executed. It's not, in that case, a direct execution for the Creed, but it is because he wasn't willing to compromise his faith and engage in a lifestyle contrary to it. So this would also include, you know, people like Saint Maximilian Kolbe and those who are killed by the Nazis, because in standing up against the horrors of the Nazis, they're living out their faith, and for this, they're being, you know, captured, tortured and killed. And so we would regard them as martyrs as well. All of that, properly understood, is martyrdom, because all of that involves a hatred of the faith, sometimes more overtly and sometimes just they hate the things that the faith stands for. The other dimension that comes in when we're talking about the case with the North Sentinelese Islanders is when you have someone who isn't in full union with the Church. The Church typically doesn't regard those people formally as martyrs because of their more complicated relationship. But I believe Pope Francis made an exception to this with the Coptic martyrs who were killed by isis, because, you know, they aren't, like, defying the Church. So even in the case of St. Charles Luanga and companions, the ones who were canonized were the Catholic ones. There were also Anglicans there who were presumably martyrs and in heaven as well. But it's sort of outside of our purview to make that declaration.

[A]

Okay, Steve?

[C]

No. Well, so was he a martyr or not? Because I. Was he a martyr for Christ?

[B]

Are you asking because of his faith or because of the reasons he was killed?

[C]

No, well, that's the thing. Like is. But I guess the reason he was killed because his faith was he was a Christian.

[B]

But, yeah, someone who goes to another people and then is. Is killed because they went there to preach the gospel. And it's particularly because they went there that they're being killed. So, you know, think of the North American martyrs, Saint Isaac Jogues and John de Babouf and all these. Some of the reason that they're being killed is because they don't like the religion that is being preached. Some of it is because of superstitious beliefs about the Jesuits as such, where even if they didn't say a word, they were going to be regarded with hatred and suspicion. The fact that they're there is because of the faith. And the fact they're being hated for being there, I think rises to the level of odium fidei. It rises to the level of hatred for the faith, even if the person who is hatefully killing them doesn't have a good theological understanding of what it is that they believe. And it's probably worth pointing out that Christ's own killers, many of them, couldn't have told you exactly what his message was. And to say Christ wasn't martyred would be wrong.

[A]

Stephen, I'm going to say thank you. We're coming back into the studio here. Grace, one of the students from St. Joseph Academy here with us for the day. And first of all, Grace, welcome.

[D]

Thank you so much.

[A]

You got a question for Joe Heschmeyer?

[D]

I do.

[A]

All right.

[D]

So sorry. I was wondering, for instance, there's these people sometimes who can receive the Holy Eucharist for years and not see any difference in their lives. No increase in grace or virtue. Can. I realize that that's a problem with your disposition and the reason. That's the reason. But can you. Do you think you can elaborate on that? And maybe another example?

[B]

I'm happy to continue the theme of using the speaker's name in the answer, because this is all a question about, as you said, an increase of grace. So the issue is that the sacraments are efficacious of themselves, what's called ex opere operato. Nevertheless, everything is received according to the mode of the receiver. So let's unpack what that means. How can those two things both be true? The Eucharist is Jesus, and as a result, coming in contact with Jesus is spiritually beneficial. But we know Jesus walked around with people for three years, and one of them who accompanied him a Lot betrayed him at the Last Supper after receiving the Eucharist. Seemingly there's some dispute about whether he received, but he seems to have received. And then he betrays Christ. So it is certainly possible to have contact with Christ in the sacraments and in the flesh and in person in the way that Judas did, and still betray him. So how do we reconcile all of this? In fact, we might even go one step further and say St. Paul warns about those receiving unworthily eating and drinking damnation upon themselves. So that's the extreme. You can actually receive in a way that's completely unworthy, where you're not doing a spiritual good for yourself, you're actually doing a spiritual harm. The analogy I would use for someone who is going through the motions, they're lukewarm, they're kind of closed off, is that it's like having the tap on your sink or the light switch on your house either off or barely running. And that's not a problem on the flow of water to your house. It's coming in, the power is going to your house, the water is coming to your house. But on your end, you're blocking it. You're blocking it by having the faucet off. You're blocking it by having the light switched off. And so we can block the working of divine grace. And those graces are still right there on offer for us just to tune in and say yes. So that's, you know, obviously an analogy, but that's how it works in the spiritual life.

[A]

What do you think, Grace?

[D]

I think that's a really good answer. Thank you so much.

[B]

Did you expect that he would work.

[A]

Your name into the answer?

[D]

Yes, probably. Because the Eucharist is the biggest outflow.

[A]

Of grace, so very well done.

[B]

It certainly wasn't in this conversation. Your outflow was all about the Eucharist. Yeah.

[A]

You guys are very well prepared there. You seem like you have very good instructors in the faith.

[D]

We do. One of them is right there. It's Mr. Murray.

[A]

Mr. Murray is one of the people. Nice job, Mr. Murray. Good work. Very good work. All right, well, I'm going to go on to a call. Grace, thank you very much for coming in. Scott's in Camden, Ohio, listening on Sacred Heart Radio. Scott, glad you're here. Go ahead with a question for Joe.

[C]

Hey, thank you guys for taking my call. I appreciate it.

[A]

We're happy to have you back. Awesome.

[C]

So I was talking to a priest today, and I was asking him, you know, what is the Catholic Church take on denominations that believe, you know, the tenets of the Nicene Creed, whether implicitly or explicitly. And he basically gave me the answer, you know, we think you guys are Christians, but I want to expound further upon that. So, like, say someone is a Baptist or Methodist or etc. You know, someone outside the Catholic Church, where is their eternal destination? Do they go to purgatory or how does that work?

[B]

Well, nobody's eternal destination is purgatory. Purgatory is a temporary thing. Those who go to purgatory are saved. So I would say for a Baptist who dies, for that matter, for a Catholic who dies, they might find their next stop to be heaven, Hell or Purgatory. That is a question in one sense known to God alone, that salvation is much more than a theology quiz. And so let's unpack a few things. One, by virtue of your baptism, you're brought into the family of God. I know Baptists have a different view even on this, but we would recognize your baptism as a sacrament and as doing something in your life. And Scripture speaks of it, you know, forgiving sin and incorporating you into the Church in some way. And so we find that in places like Acts 2 that as many are baptized are added to the number meaning of those in the church. And it, it does all these things. It forgives sins, it imparts the Holy Spirit. And so we want to take seriously that the sacraments have this effect and that faith is real. So we want to distinguish between the person who is consciously, knowingly refusing to become Catholic, even though they know that this is what they're called to by God, and the person who innocently does not know that. So we don't believe, like just be Nicene, and that's good enough. I would actually, if we want to go really deep in the weeds, I'd suggest Baptists don't affirm one baptism for the forgiveness of sins and the sense the Nicene Creed means. But I think more importantly, the Nicene Creed is not meant to just be. As long as you believe this, that's all you'll ever need to believe. And more is required. The Creed is, is a foundation. It's kind of a basement. But it's not the end of the, of what you need to believe to be an Orthodox, like small O Orthodox Christian. So we are called to be part of one flock for Christ. But there are plenty of people who are trying to follow Christ and are confused about that. They innocently don't know where to find the one flock, or they think that they're in the flock through no fault. Of their own. And God is merciful to such people. They're not being disobedient. They're just confusedly trying to obey. That's still obedience. Like if I am trying to do what my boss tells me to do and I just don't understand the instructions, that's not the same as the person who refuses the instruction. Does that make sense?

[C]

Yeah, that absolutely makes sense. So I guess me kind of in the middle. I guess the reason, I guess the question stems from two reasons is one is I'm kind of tired of bickering in my own denomination, you know, about who's a Christian and not right. And then on the second hand of like, well, is the Catholic Church, the, the church I should be joining? I guess that's where the question stems from.

[B]

Glory, I think. Well, first of all, I would say absolutely. Keep calling in as you kind of are exploring that question. I know we're coming up on the break here, but I would trust follow Christ prompting on that. And I would suggest it's not a coincidence you've been led to ask those kind of questions.

[A]

Hey, Scott, call back. It would be great to get to talk with you again. Our guest is Joe Heschmeier. We're going to continue with another hour of Ask Me Anything. Anybody is welcome to call if you've got a question about the Catholic Church faith, whether from inside the Catholic Church or out. The number is 888-318-7884. I think we'll still have students from St. Joseph's Academy with us for the next hour, too. I hope so at least. So we'll get some more of those, mix them in with some calls, and have a great second hour with Joe Heschmeier right after this on Catholic answ.