Catholic Answers Live - Episode #12138

"Do Catholics Put More Faith in the Church Than in Jesus?"
Guest: Tim Staples (Senior Apologist, Catholic Answers)
Host: Sy Kellett
Date: April 4, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode addresses a common Protestant critique: "Do Catholics put more faith in the Church than in Jesus?" Tim Staples, a Senior Apologist, fields live caller questions, providing in-depth scriptural and historical context to the Church’s teachings. The conversation explores the nuanced relationship between faith in God and the Church, the perpetual virginity of Mary, and what it means to be truly welcoming in the Catholic Church, all within an accessible, pastoral tone.

Main Discussion: Faith in the Church vs. Faith in Jesus

Key Question (Irvin, New Jersey) [01:51-15:00]

• Caller Concern: Protestant friend says Catholics are obsessed with the Church more than with Jesus.

• Tim Staples’ Response:

  • Faith’s Ultimate Object Is God:
    “Scripture makes clear that the ultimate object of our faith is God. And the Catholic Church makes that clear as well. So that would be just nonsense. The Catholic Church does not say we put our faith in the church over and above God, because it is God who established the church.” [02:12]

  • Distinction in the Catechism:
    Catholics “believe in God, but we believe the Church” – a subtle but important distinction. [02:37]

  • The Biblical Pattern:

    • References Exodus 14:31 (“…the people feared the Lord, and they believed in the Lord and in his servant Moses.”)
    • Shows faith in God includes a (secondary) faith in the leaders He appoints. [03:09]
    • Points to the letter to the Hebrews on the radical newness of the New Covenant and the powers it brings, including the sacraments. [04:14]

  • Seriousness of Listening to Church Authority:

    • In the OT, rejecting the priest/judge was punishable by death (Deut 17:8-12).
    • In the NT, Christ intensifies it: "If you knowingly reject the church, you are lost." (cf. Matthew 18:15-18) “The one who fails to hear the church is to be as a heathen and a publican. Right? That is the language of excommunication.” [08:19]

  • Why Such Reverence for the Church?

    • “The church is Jesus Christ extended into this world.” [10:33]
    • Cites Ephesians 1:22-23: “The Church is the body of Christ, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.”
    • “If you hear the Church, you hear Jesus. If you reject the Church, you reject Jesus.” [10:58]

  • Not Above God, but United to Him:

    • “We don’t worship the church. We certainly don’t put the church above Jesus. Because everything she is comes from God.” [12:44]

  • Response to Protestant Minimalism:

    • Notes that Protestantism often trivializes the Church (“you can just start a church in your living room”), misreading “where two or three are gathered” (Matthew 18) out of context. [13:54]
    • “Our Protestant friends have no concept of ecclesiology, the divine nature of the church. Not that the church is God, but that the church is Jesus Christ extended into this world.” [14:31]

Notable Quotes:

• “We don’t worship the church. We certainly don’t put the church above Jesus or above God. Of course not. Because everything she is comes from from God.” – Tim Staples [12:44]
• “The church is Jesus Christ extended into this world. This is why we treat her with such reverence.” – Tim Staples [10:33]
• “If you knowingly reject the church, you are lost. And this really gets to the crux, I think, of your question.” – Tim Staples [08:08]
• “You don’t leave Peter because of Judas.” – Tim Staples [42:38]

[14:55] Caller Irvin’s Reaction:

• “You explained it so beautifully. Oh, my goodness. This is beautiful. Thank you so much.” [14:56]

Discussion on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary

The "Brothers of the Lord" & Historical/Biblical Evidence

Gabriel, California [16:44-24:49]

• Question: Are the "brothers of Jesus" sons of Joseph from a previous marriage, or cousins?
• Tim Staples’ Answer:
  • Clarifies multiple names in scripture; Alphaeus and Clopas likely refer to the same person.
  • Cites Galatians 1:19 where “James, the Lord's brother” is an apostle—there were only two apostles named James:
    • James son of Zebedee (not son of Joseph, and put to death early in Acts)
    • James son of Alphaeus—cannot be a direct son of Mary and Joseph. [18:45]
  • Jude calls himself brother of James (Jude 1:1-2), matching the “brothers” named in Matthew 13:55. Early Church historians like Eusebius affirm these were extended relations, not siblings by blood.
  • Refers to St. Jerome’s argument: “There’s four different ways that brother was used in ancient Israel…not just for uterine brothers.” [21:39]

Notable Quotes:

• “To say that those brothers of the Lord were uterine brothers, there is simply no biblical proof of this.” – Tim Staples [21:20]
• “It’s obvious in this case that we’re not talking about uterine brothers. We’re talking about relations, cousins most likely, or some sort of extended relation.” – Tim Staples [21:50]

Historical Evidence for Temple Virgins

Dutch, St. Louis [24:50-38:48]

• Question: Do we have evidence of consecrated virgins in temple Judaism?
• Tim Staples’ Answer:
  • Points to 1 Samuel 2:22 and 2 Maccabees 3:19-20 referencing women dedicated to temple service.
  • Cites the Mishnah and Talmud repeatedly referring to “temple virgins” and their roles (e.g., 82 virgins who wove the temple veil, Mishnah Shekelim 8:5-6).
  • Rabbinic accounts during the sacking of Jerusalem describe “virgins who were weaving…threw themselves into the flames” rather than be defiled.
  • Explains how "alma" (young woman) in Isaiah 7:14 is rightly understood as “virgin” through context and tradition, and how tradition clarifies scriptural usages.

Notable Quotes:

• “Those are just some of the examples. But yeah, absolutely, there were temple virgins. … For those who say there was no such thing as temple virgins, they have simply not done their homework, because in fact, there were.” – Tim Staples [36:17]
• “It was so expected that the term basically meant virgin. And that’s why it was translated as virgin, even long before the time of Christ.” – Tim Staples [37:36]

Being Welcoming & the Logic of Church Discipline

In-Studio Guest: Leslie, New Orleans [40:46-54:10]

• Question: How do you respond to Catholics who find the Church unwelcoming—especially regarding who can receive communion?
• Tim Staples’ Answer:
  • Recognizes the Church as a “hospital for sinners” and concedes some have been hurt in the Church.
  • Important to acknowledge others’ negative experiences without dismissing them outright.
  • Distinguishes between the “impeccability” and “infallibility” of the Church.
  • On Communion: Points to 1 Corinthians 11—receiving unworthily is spiritually dangerous.
  • The OCIA (Order of Christian Initiation for Adults) is a “firewall,” ensuring proper discernment before reception.
  • Early Church was more direct only because there was one Church, one message; with division and confusion, formation is crucial. [49:44]
  • Over time, rigorous catechesis is mercy, not exclusivity.

Notable Quotes:

• “The Church is not just a museum of saints. It’s a hospital for sinners. And we’re all in that boat.” – Tim Staples [41:28]
• “The Church wants to be sure that the people that are going to receive the gift are prepared to receive it. And that’s basically the answer.” – Tim Staples [54:07]
• “You don’t leave Peter because of Judas. … We need you to make things better.” – Tim Staples [42:38]
• “Y’all should too.” (Tim’s Louisiana aside about sharing Catholic teaching) [52:54]

Other Notable and Memorable Moments

• Listener Testimony:
  Caller Irvin shares he returned to the Church after 30 years due to Catholic Answers’ ministry. [15:43-16:20]
• Humor & Camaraderie:
  • Several jokes about walking from New Orleans to San Diego.
  • Multiple references to “getting your steps in,” light banter about Louisiana and Texas geography. [40:46-54:10]
• On Catholic Unity and Saints:
  • Story about his child writing a paper on St. Catherine of Siena, emphasizing learning from the saints while being realistic about human frailty within the Church. [45:34]

Timestamps for Major Segments

• 01:51 – Main question: Protestants say Catholics focus too much on the Church
• 10:33 – “The Church is Jesus Christ extended into this world.”
• 14:55 – Caller: "You explained it so beautifully."
• 16:44 – Perpetual Virginity of Mary: Are the "brothers" of Jesus actual siblings?
• 24:50 – Historical evidence for temple virgins
• 37:36 – Distinction between "virgin" and "young woman" in Isaiah 7:14
• 40:46 – What makes the Church seem unwelcoming? (In-studio)
• 48:11 – Why does the Church have rules about communion?

Conclusion

This episode provides both scriptural and historical clarity about the Catholic position on faith in God and in the Church, as well as Marian doctrine and pastoral discipline. Tim Staples offers a robust defense of Catholic teaching while maintaining humility, humor, and compassion for caller concerns. The key takeaway: Catholics give absolute primacy to God, but also honor the Church as His extension in the world — just as Scripture and tradition require.