#12138 Do Catholics Put More Faith in the Church Than in Jesus? - Tim Staples

Summary

---

Catholic Answers Live - Episode #12138

"Do Catholics Put More Faith in the Church Than in Jesus?"
Guest: Tim Staples (Senior Apologist, Catholic Answers)
Host: Sy Kellett
Date: April 4, 2025

---

Episode Overview

This episode addresses a common Protestant critique: "Do Catholics put more faith in the Church than in Jesus?" Tim Staples, a Senior Apologist, fields live caller questions, providing in-depth scriptural and historical context to the Church’s teachings. The conversation explores the nuanced relationship between faith in God and the Church, the perpetual virginity of Mary, and what it means to be truly welcoming in the Catholic Church, all within an accessible, pastoral tone.

---

Main Discussion: Faith in the Church vs. Faith in Jesus

Key Question (Irvin, New Jersey) [01:51-15:00]

• Caller Concern: Protestant friend says Catholics are obsessed with the Church more than with Jesus.

• Tim Staples’ Response:

  • Faith’s Ultimate Object Is God:
    “Scripture makes clear that the ultimate object of our faith is God. And the Catholic Church makes that clear as well. So that would be just nonsense. The Catholic Church does not say we put our faith in the church over and above God, because it is God who established the church.” [02:12]

  • Distinction in the Catechism:
    Catholics “believe in God, but we believe the Church” – a subtle but important distinction. [02:37]

  • The Biblical Pattern:

    • References Exodus 14:31 (“…the people feared the Lord, and they believed in the Lord and in his servant Moses.”)
    • Shows faith in God includes a (secondary) faith in the leaders He appoints. [03:09]
    • Points to the letter to the Hebrews on the radical newness of the New Covenant and the powers it brings, including the sacraments. [04:14]

  • Seriousness of Listening to Church Authority:

    • In the OT, rejecting the priest/judge was punishable by death (Deut 17:8-12).
    • In the NT, Christ intensifies it: "If you knowingly reject the church, you are lost." (cf. Matthew 18:15-18) “The one who fails to hear the church is to be as a heathen and a publican. Right? That is the language of excommunication.” [08:19]

  • Why Such Reverence for the Church?

    • “The church is Jesus Christ extended into this world.” [10:33]
    • Cites Ephesians 1:22-23: “The Church is the body of Christ, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.”
    • “If you hear the Church, you hear Jesus. If you reject the Church, you reject Jesus.” [10:58]

  • Not Above God, but United to Him:

    • “We don’t worship the church. We certainly don’t put the church above Jesus. Because everything she is comes from God.” [12:44]

  • Response to Protestant Minimalism:

    • Notes that Protestantism often trivializes the Church (“you can just start a church in your living room”), misreading “where two or three are gathered” (Matthew 18) out of context. [13:54]
    • “Our Protestant friends have no concept of ecclesiology, the divine nature of the church. Not that the church is God, but that the church is Jesus Christ extended into this world.” [14:31]

Notable Quotes:

• “We don’t worship the church. We certainly don’t put the church above Jesus or above God. Of course not. Because everything she is comes from from God.” – Tim Staples [12:44]
• “The church is Jesus Christ extended into this world. This is why we treat her with such reverence.” – Tim Staples [10:33]
• “If you knowingly reject the church, you are lost. And this really gets to the crux, I think, of your question.” – Tim Staples [08:08]
• “You don’t leave Peter because of Judas.” – Tim Staples [42:38]

[14:55] Caller Irvin’s Reaction:

• “You explained it so beautifully. Oh, my goodness. This is beautiful. Thank you so much.” [14:56]

---

Discussion on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary

The "Brothers of the Lord" & Historical/Biblical Evidence

Gabriel, California [16:44-24:49]

• Question: Are the "brothers of Jesus" sons of Joseph from a previous marriage, or cousins?
• Tim Staples’ Answer:
  • Clarifies multiple names in scripture; Alphaeus and Clopas likely refer to the same person.
  • Cites Galatians 1:19 where “James, the Lord's brother” is an apostle—there were only two apostles named James:
    • James son of Zebedee (not son of Joseph, and put to death early in Acts)
    • James son of Alphaeus—cannot be a direct son of Mary and Joseph. [18:45]
  • Jude calls himself brother of James (Jude 1:1-2), matching the “brothers” named in Matthew 13:55. Early Church historians like Eusebius affirm these were extended relations, not siblings by blood.
  • Refers to St. Jerome’s argument: “There’s four different ways that brother was used in ancient Israel…not just for uterine brothers.” [21:39]

Notable Quotes:

• “To say that those brothers of the Lord were uterine brothers, there is simply no biblical proof of this.” – Tim Staples [21:20]
• “It’s obvious in this case that we’re not talking about uterine brothers. We’re talking about relations, cousins most likely, or some sort of extended relation.” – Tim Staples [21:50]

Historical Evidence for Temple Virgins

Dutch, St. Louis [24:50-38:48]

• Question: Do we have evidence of consecrated virgins in temple Judaism?
• Tim Staples’ Answer:
  • Points to 1 Samuel 2:22 and 2 Maccabees 3:19-20 referencing women dedicated to temple service.
  • Cites the Mishnah and Talmud repeatedly referring to “temple virgins” and their roles (e.g., 82 virgins who wove the temple veil, Mishnah Shekelim 8:5-6).
  • Rabbinic accounts during the sacking of Jerusalem describe “virgins who were weaving…threw themselves into the flames” rather than be defiled.
  • Explains how "alma" (young woman) in Isaiah 7:14 is rightly understood as “virgin” through context and tradition, and how tradition clarifies scriptural usages.

Notable Quotes:

• “Those are just some of the examples. But yeah, absolutely, there were temple virgins. … For those who say there was no such thing as temple virgins, they have simply not done their homework, because in fact, there were.” – Tim Staples [36:17]
• “It was so expected that the term basically meant virgin. And that’s why it was translated as virgin, even long before the time of Christ.” – Tim Staples [37:36]

---

Being Welcoming & the Logic of Church Discipline

In-Studio Guest: Leslie, New Orleans [40:46-54:10]

• Question: How do you respond to Catholics who find the Church unwelcoming—especially regarding who can receive communion?
• Tim Staples’ Answer:
  • Recognizes the Church as a “hospital for sinners” and concedes some have been hurt in the Church.
  • Important to acknowledge others’ negative experiences without dismissing them outright.
  • Distinguishes between the “impeccability” and “infallibility” of the Church.
  • On Communion: Points to 1 Corinthians 11—receiving unworthily is spiritually dangerous.
  • The OCIA (Order of Christian Initiation for Adults) is a “firewall,” ensuring proper discernment before reception.
  • Early Church was more direct only because there was one Church, one message; with division and confusion, formation is crucial. [49:44]
  • Over time, rigorous catechesis is mercy, not exclusivity.

Notable Quotes:

• “The Church is not just a museum of saints. It’s a hospital for sinners. And we’re all in that boat.” – Tim Staples [41:28]
• “The Church wants to be sure that the people that are going to receive the gift are prepared to receive it. And that’s basically the answer.” – Tim Staples [54:07]
• “You don’t leave Peter because of Judas. … We need you to make things better.” – Tim Staples [42:38]
• “Y’all should too.” (Tim’s Louisiana aside about sharing Catholic teaching) [52:54]

---

Other Notable and Memorable Moments

• Listener Testimony:
  Caller Irvin shares he returned to the Church after 30 years due to Catholic Answers’ ministry. [15:43-16:20]
• Humor & Camaraderie:
  • Several jokes about walking from New Orleans to San Diego.
  • Multiple references to “getting your steps in,” light banter about Louisiana and Texas geography. [40:46-54:10]
• On Catholic Unity and Saints:
  • Story about his child writing a paper on St. Catherine of Siena, emphasizing learning from the saints while being realistic about human frailty within the Church. [45:34]

---

Timestamps for Major Segments

• 01:51 – Main question: Protestants say Catholics focus too much on the Church
• 10:33 – “The Church is Jesus Christ extended into this world.”
• 14:55 – Caller: "You explained it so beautifully."
• 16:44 – Perpetual Virginity of Mary: Are the "brothers" of Jesus actual siblings?
• 24:50 – Historical evidence for temple virgins
• 37:36 – Distinction between "virgin" and "young woman" in Isaiah 7:14
• 40:46 – What makes the Church seem unwelcoming? (In-studio)
• 48:11 – Why does the Church have rules about communion?

---

Conclusion

This episode provides both scriptural and historical clarity about the Catholic position on faith in God and in the Church, as well as Marian doctrine and pastoral discipline. Tim Staples offers a robust defense of Catholic teaching while maintaining humility, humor, and compassion for caller concerns. The key takeaway: Catholics give absolute primacy to God, but also honor the Church as His extension in the world — just as Scripture and tradition require.

---

Transcript

[Host (Sy Kellett)]

Buying or selling your home. Real Estate for Life can connect you with a pro life real estate agent. When Real Estate for Life receives a referral fee, they donate 65% to Catholic Answers. Learn more at realestateforlife.org welcome back to Catholic Answers. Life as promised. Tim Staples here with us, senior apologist here at Catholic Answers. And none of you guys have to remind me I remembered there's something I wanted to tell. I told them the first hour to remember to tell you something.

[Tim Staples]

Okay.

[Host (Sy Kellett)]

A woman named Mary.

[Tim Staples]

Mary.

[Host (Sy Kellett)]

Her daughter in law is in the OCIA in Atlanta, Georgia.

[Tim Staples]

Praise God.

[Host (Sy Kellett)]

And the person teaching the RCA made an error that said that the church doesn't teach the perpetual virginity of Mary as an official teaching.

[Tim Staples]

Ouch.

[Host (Sy Kellett)]

And so do you know what Mary did? What's that? She got 30 copies of Behold you'd Mother and gave them to everybody, including the teacher. My understanding is. So I said I got to tell Tim about that when he gets in here.

[Tim Staples]

So.

[Host (Sy Kellett)]

Isn't that nice?

[Tim Staples]

Oh, that's beautiful. Praise God. Yeah. We're helping folks, you know that.

[Host (Sy Kellett)]

I know. One of us is. I don't know. Both of us are. 888-318-7884 is the number. 884. It's Ask Me Anything with Tim Staples this hour and I am looking at every single phone line full. So you okay if we just go to the phones, Tim?

[Tim Staples]

Let's do it. All right.

[Host (Sy Kellett)]

Let's go to Irvin in New Jersey watching on YouTube. Great to get a call from New Jersey. Irvin, welcome.

[Caller Irvin]

How you doing?

[Host (Sy Kellett)]

What's going on?

[Caller Irvin]

I mean, it's a ask you a question. So I was talking to one of my Protestant friends and he was saying about alluding to Catholics, they're obsessed with the church and not mostly obsessed with Jesus or like really following Jesus more than the church, you know. And I was just wondering if you can give me a take on that, you know.

[Tim Staples]

Right, right. Well, you know, there's no doubt that scripture makes clear that the ultimate object of our faith is God. And the Catholic Church makes that clear as well. So that would be just nonsense. The Catholic Church does not say we put our faith in the church over and above God because it is God who established the church. It's God that is the source of all goodness and all truth and all beauty that the church possesses. So of course he has the primacy. However, there does require for there to be faith in the leadership of the church as well. Now, interesting, in the catechism we make a little distinction there between our faith being in God. So we believe in God, but we believe the church. It's an interesting little development that we've had in recent centuries to make that distinction. But if you go to, for example, Exodus 14:31, and I'll read it for you in the Old Testament, notice it says, and Israel saw the great work which the Lord did against the Egyptians, and the people feared the Lord, and they believed in the Lord and in his servant Moses. You notice how in the Old Testament here that of course the faith is first and foremost directed toward God, and the people feared the Lord, they believed in the Lord, but then it says, and in his servant Moses. Now, again, in our New Covenant Theology, we make a little bit more of a distinction there. We say, we believe in God, we believe the church. Why? Because it's God. Now, let me add to this. In the New Covenant, we have a more radical understanding of the nature of the church because of the incarnation, right? Jesus creates an entirely new economy of salvation. Right? And how it works transcends what the Old Covenant people of God could even imagine. Because the incarnation of our blessed Lord brings with it these great gifts, we call them sacraments, where he became man so that we could be lifted up into the very life of God and experience supernatural powers that we could not fathom before. And of course, they will be fully realized in heaven. As First Corinthians 2, 9 says, Eye has not seen, ear is not heard, nor has it entered in the heart of man what God has prepared for those who love him. But even now I always like to point, especially the inspired author, to the Hebrews. In chapter six, verses four through six, he talks about how that even now we are become partakers of the powers of the age to come. And that's in the context you remember, Sy, of him warning, don't leave the covenant that you have been incorporated into, because if you do, there is no repentance for you. And he was talking in context there, the inspired authority to the Hebrews of Jewish Christians who were being tempted to go back to the temple. And he was saying in that context, you go back to the temple, you're going back to a well without water. You can't get your sins forgiven there. That's a big theme throughout the letter to the Hebrews. But in talking about this incredible new covenant. And really, Sy, that's what the entire letter to the Hebrews is about. Starting in chapter one and two, he shows how Jesus is superior to the angels. He's God. And he says it in the plainest words there In Hebrews chapter one, six, eight and 10 and elsewhere. But those six through eight and 10, I mean, he just lays it right out there. He's God, he's superior to the angels. And he goes down the list. He's superior to Moses and Aaron and Joshua and the old covenant temple or tent, as he says there, the skene, the old covenant temple and ark of the covenant and priesthood, and especially sacrifices, right? So it's all about this glorious church. And so, yes, we have a real reverence for the church in a more profound way. Even. Even though I just laid out to you, the reverence for Moses was tremendous here. And that's Exodus 14:31 that I just quoted. And the high priesthood and the priesthood itself, the Old Testament people of God had a high reverence for all of the above. And in fact, Deuteronomy 17, 8, 12 says that if the priest or the judge or the one whom the Lord has placed over you deals with a particular situation. He says starting at verse eight, if a matter arises between blood and blood, brother and brother, and you can't settle it, you know, you take one or two with you. In fact, Jesus refers back to that when he's talking about the New Testament Church and how we get situations dealt with where we have disagreements in the New testament in Matthew 18, 15, 18. But again back to Deuteronomy 17:8 through 12, he says, if you can't settle it, you take it to the priest or the judge or the one whom the Lord has placed over you. And the one who fails to listen to the priest or the judge or the one whom the Lord has placed over you, he was to be put to death. Right? That was pretty serious. So there was a really lofty. Now, of course, in the New Testament we have a more severe punishment for those who knowingly reject the church, that is in eternity, in hell. And that's Jesus point in Matthew 18:15, 18. And again knowingly, we have to make clear on that if you knowingly reject the church, you are lost. And this really gets to the crux, I think, of your question, the reason for that, the reason why Jesus would say in such strong terms in Matthew 18:15, 18, if your brother shall offend against thee, go tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you gain your brother. If he won't hear you, take one or two with you. Again, referring back to the Old Testament there that I just mentioned in Deuteronomy 17, 8, 12, here he says, take one or two with you that in the mouth of two or three witnesses, every word may be established. But if he will not hear them, tell it to the church. And the one who fails to hear the church is to be as a heathen and a publican. Right? That is the language of excommunication. Right? As you know, Pope Francis in Amoris Laetitia uses that very text concerning those who would reject the Church. And he says this is the language of excommunication here. And he was specifically referring to this text in Matthew, chapter 18. This is strong language here. Why? Because the church. Aha. And here we get to the crux. Is described for us in the New Testament as something that Moses could not have even fathomed. In Ephesians, chapter 1, verses 22 and 23, the Scripture says the Church is the body of Christ, the fullness of him who fills all in all right there in one fell swoop. Of course, it's all over the New Testament. We could go to 1 Corinthians 12, 12, 27. We could go to Romans 12. We could go all over the entire Epistle to the Ephesians, and we could talk more about Hebrews as well. But this is a pithy little statement that tells you the reason why the Church is to be honored so highly. Not just because the Church has the authority of Jesus Christ. And if you hear the Church, you hear Jesus. If you reject the Church, you reject Jesus. Luke 10:16, Matthew, chapter 10:40. And again, I get back to Matthew 18, 15, 18. But even more than that, it's because the Church is Jesus Christ extended into this world and the gifts that God has placed in the Church, as we see in Ephesians, chapter 4, verse 11. Now, St. Paul says the Holy Spirit has placed within the Church certain gifts, and he names apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists, and teachers for the work of the ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ. Why, I'm skipping down to verse 14 so that henceforth you be not children tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine, but so that you can be rooted, grounded, settled in the faith. It's because of this great dignity the Church has. She is Jesus Christ extended into this world. This is why we treat her with such reverence. And I like to remind people today, you know, I like quoting Pope Francis a lot, but you know, Pope Francis, when a lot of folks are attacking him. I remember in an interview, he said, you know what? Attack me all you want because I'm a sinner and I deserve it. But don't attack the church. When you're talking about magisterial teaching, whether extraordinary or ordinary, you don't attack the church because the church is Jesus Christ extending the world. So we're talking about an honor. We're not talking about. We don't worship the church. We certainly don't put the church above Jesus or above God. Of course not. Because everything she is comes from from God. Every gift she has comes from Jesus, who is God. The church is not. So what I do in that situation, my friend, is I use that as an opportunity to evangelize. So I first lay out the facts that no, the church. In the church, we direct all worship to God and God alone. And I always say to folks, go to Mass. I challenge my private friends. In fact, come with me. I'll take you to Mass. And I want to show you something. Because the entire liturgy, that is the most profound worship in the world for Catholics. Everything else in our faith is directed to our Blessed Lord in the Eucharist. And you see, the entire Mass is ordered toward. It is an offering giving to God. And all worship, adoration is offered to God. Any mention of the saints is peripheral. Even the Blessed Mother is peripheral next to the centrality of Almighty God. But that doesn't mean. And then you get to the second part, that the church is somehow trivial and doesn't matter, because that's what you have popularly in Protestantism, the church doesn't matter. You can just start a church in your living room. Because what is the church except where two or three are gathered together? I used to preach that, brother, when I was in the Assemblies of God. Matthew 18:19. Talk about taking a text out of context, because that comes right after Matthew 18, 15, 18 that I just quoted before the next verse. Where two or three are gathered, there am I in the midst. But what happens if those two or three disagree with each other? He just told you, you listen to the church or you're not going to get to heaven. You're going to be cut off and be as a heathen and a publican, right? So honor my friend. Our Protestant friends have no concept of ecclesiology. The nature of the church, the divine nature of the church. Not that the church is God, but that the church is Jesus Christ extended into this world. Does that make sense, brother?

[Host (Sy Kellett)]

Amen.

[Caller Irvin]

I say to you, my man.

[Tim Staples]

Beautiful.

[Caller Irvin]

You explained it. So beautiful. Oh, my goodness. This is beautiful. Thank you so much.

[Tim Staples]

All right, brother, God bless.

[Host (Sy Kellett)]

That brings us to the break. Right back with more Tim Staples. Ask Me Anything on Catholic Answers Live.

[Announcer]

Let us help you with your question.

[Promotional Voice]

Today on CATHOLIC Answers Live.

Do you have a question but prefer to ask it privately? Catholic Questions can help. Go to CatholicQuestions.com to ask your question online. Email us, drop us a letter or give us a call. Longtime Catholic Answers Live apologist and author Jim Blackburn or another Catholic Questions apologist will be happy to assist you. Catholic Questions proudly supports Catholic Answers Live. So Visit [e-mail] today. That's CatholicQuestions.com EWTN helping people grow in.

[Caller Leslie]

Their love and understanding of God.

[Caller Irvin]

Praise your ministry. I went back to the church after 30 years of staying out of the church after finding your radio station and ministry on terrestrial radio. It wasn't even the Internet. And I've been back and I've been evangelizing, you know, and using some of your responses to questions.

[Host (Sy Kellett)]

Welcome back to CATHOLIC Answers live. Our guest is Tim Staples this hour and you are welcome to call with your questions. 888-318-7884. We're going coming right back out here to California from New Jersey. Gabriel is in California watching on YouTube. Welcome, Gabriel. Go ahead with your question for Tim.

[Caller Gabriel]

Hello, can you hear me?

[Host (Sy Kellett)]

Yes, we can.

[Caller Gabriel]

So my question is about the perpetual virginity of Mary. So I know Catholics have two ideas of it. It can either be the brothers of Jesus, it can be the sons of Joseph from previous marriage, or cousins through Clopas and Mary, right?

[Tim Staples]

Correct. Correct. Yeah.

[Caller Gabriel]

My question is about James. They say that he's an apostle and he's the son of Alpeus, but it also says that he's the son of Clopas.

[Tim Staples]

Yeah. And most likely the reason for that is often virtually all the time in the Old Testament, you had multiple names like Matthew, Levi, Jude, Thaddeus. And the reason is because you would have one name that is your Aramaic name and one name that is your Greek name. Because remember, even though Aramaic was the language of the Jewish people, the language of the empire in the first century was Greek. And so most likely because if you draw the parallels there between Matthew 27 and John 19, it looks like we're talking about the same person when we talk about and in the in Luke chapter six, when it talks about the father of James and Jude, it looks like Alphaeus and Cleopas are the same person. But I think perhaps more important than that, and it's all important, I will tell you what really did it for me. And by the way, John Calvin in his commentary on the Synoptic Gospels, agrees with this. When you look at Galatians chapter 1, verse 19, when St. Paul is talking about his conversion and how shortly after his conversion, he went up to Jerusalem. I'm sure you're aware of this, brother. And by the way, this is in my book, behold your mother. I have a whole section actual, actually several chapters on the perpetual virginity of Mary. But this is in the book along with many other things. But he went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and he says, while I was there, none other of the apostles did I see except James, the Lord's brother to me. And by the way, John Calvin, that was a crucial text here in helping us to understand who the brothers of the Lord were in Matthew 13:55. Right. As you name, as you know, James, Joseph, Simon, Judas, the four brothers of the Lord. Well, the first is James, the second is Joses. Why? Because normally in Oriental culture, in ancient Jewish culture, you put the more famous guy first. We kind of do that in our culture as well. Right, right. When you're talking about a family, you know, if you have one that's a rock star or something, you usually put them first. That's the way it was back then as well. So it's James, Joses, Simon and Judas, the brothers of the Lord. Well, James is mentioned right there as one of the brothers of the Lord. But as John Calvin points out, the fact that we're talking about within a couple years of Paul's conversion, maybe three at the most, but within most likely the first couple years, because he had gone to Damascus and he was preaching and he realized, hey, I got to go up and see the big guys, lest, as he said himself, my preaching be in vain. He's basically going up to get approval from the apostles who were apostles before him. And so who does he go up to see? Well, if you're going to go up to see him, you got to see the number one guy. He says, I went up to see Peter, but while I was there, I saw none other the apostles except James, the Lord's brother. And so James is clearly mentioned there to be an apostle. And that to me, years ago. And there's much more we can talk about, but that was a key for me because if you consider James, the Lord's brother is an apostle. Well, there's only two Jameses that are apostles, so you can put your detective's cap on and you don't have to do a lot of work to discover the first. James is clearly named the son of Zebedee, the brother of John. And also he was put to death very early in Acts, chapter 12 verses 1 and 2 very early on, but that's not important. What's most important is we know he's the son of Zebedee. He's not the son of Joseph. Right, well. And it's not him that he's talking about here. Well, who's the second James? As you mentioned, if you go to Luke 6, 15 and 16, the second James is said to be the son of Alphaeus, not, you know, if he was going to be a brother of Jesus, who would his daddy be? Joseph, not Alphaeus. So that's an indicator there that we're not talking about uterine brothers. Now, we can add to the fact that Jude, chapter one, verse one and two, Jude refers to himself as the brother of James. And aha, we plug Jude in, the brother of James, to Matthew 13:55, and there you have two of the four brothers, James, Joses, Simon and Judas. So you got two. And we have a lot of evidence as well for the other two, especially with Simon. If you go to the early church historian Eusebius, he has all kinds of interesting little tidbits about Simon also being a relative of the Lord. So you have historical proofs and you have biblical proofs, but to say that those brothers of the Lord were uterine brothers, there is simply no biblical proof of this. There is only the fundamentalist sort of. Well, it says brother, right? But we know, as St. Jerome pointed out in his great letter against helvetius in the 4th century, he said there's four. Four different ways that brother was used in ancient Israel. Four different ways, not just for uterine brothers. And it's obvious in this case that we're not talking about uterine brothers. We're talking about relations, cousins most likely, or some sort of extended relation. And of course, we could get into a whole lot more on this, of the reasons why. But I'll tell you what I'm gonna do, brother. I'd like to send you out a copy of my book, because I get into a whole lot Old Testament typology and all sorts of fun stuff if you would like. Unless. Have you heard of my book? Behold, you'd.

[Caller Irvin]

Mother, I've heard of it.

[Tim Staples]

Yeah. All right, well, we'll send you out a copy if you'd like. I'm not going to force it on you. Are you sure?

[Host (Sy Kellett)]

Yeah, yeah, sure.

[Tim Staples]

And don't worry, Cy Kellett will pay for it. So don't worry.

[Host (Sy Kellett)]

I will be happy to, but here's how I pay for it. We actually have a very generous donor who has given us a budget to give away books on the air. So I do like every now and then to take an opportunity to thank that donor who does not want to be named. But it makes it possible for us to do that. So, Gabriel, all you have to do is hang on and give us an address and we'll send it off to you. Let's go to Dutch in St. Louis, Missouri, watching on YouTube. I like the name Dutch. Welcome, Dutch.

[Caller Leslie]

Okay.

[Caller Gabriel]

Thanks for taking my call.

[Host (Sy Kellett)]

Happy to.

[Tim Staples]

Yes.

[Caller Gabriel]

So I my question was just I recently was having a discussion about the perpetual virginity of Mary, and a criticism that was brought up was that in temple Judaism they didn't have like consecrated virgins in the temple. And so I was just curious what kind of historical sources we have access to on that subject or just in general what your response to that criticism would be.

[Tim Staples]

Sure. Sure. And of course it's absolutely wrong. Now, some of the older references, you know when you say consecrated virgins, what you had is and I'm sure you know this, but for example, in 1st Samuel, chapter 2, verse 22, we get, oh my goodness, we're going to have to take a break here. Tell you what, I've got several references to show you in the Old Testament. We also have a lot of testimony from the ancient rabbis as well. But you hang in there over the break and we'll put a bow on this when we come back.

[Host (Sy Kellett)]

Thanks, Dutch. I hope you can hang on. It'll be a very short break. Right back with more Tim Staples on Catholic Answers live. When the resurrected Jesus appeared to disciples on the road to Emmaus, they didn't recognize him until the breaking of the bread. The same is true today. In the Holy Eucharist we really meet Jesus. In the Eucharist is really Jesus. Author Joe Heschmeyer explains how knowing Jesus in the Eucharist is the key to understanding all of Christian faith. Order your copy of the Eucharist Is Really Jesus [e-mail] or get it at a good Catholic bookstore.

[Promotional Voice]

Our Lord needs articulate defenders of the truth to spread the joy of the Catholic faith. Catholic Answer's monthly giving club society 3:15 helps you fulfill the call in first Peter 3:15 to always be prepared to make a defense for the hope that is in you. For as little as $10 a month, you'll help Catholics grow in faith, bring lapsed Catholics home and lead non Catholics to the truth. Go to Casociety315.com and join today.

[Host (Sy Kellett)]

We hope that one of the things that we communicate here at Catholic Answers Live is that our Catholic faith allows us to be fully serious about all the problems we encounter in the church and in the world. But it also lets us have light hearts and maybe even mix in a bit of fun. And that is exactly, exactly what our good friend Joe Heshmeyer does in his popular podcast, Shameless Potpourri. You should check it out@sheless joe.com Joe's got a deep grasp of the faith and morals, the teachings of the church, all that, but he's also got a witty conversational style. He entertains and he informs, but you will leave equipped to better answer the most common challenges, misconceptions and questions about the Catholic faith. He's got insightful guests, he does on air debates, and he takes a close look into all the things that you want to know about as a Catholic living today. You'll walk away knowledgeable and filled with joy. Look for Joe on his YouTube channel. Check him [e-mail] or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you hear, become a patron.

[Announcer]

On Friday's Take two with Jerry and Debbie. Our topic is the real presence of.

[Host (Sy Kellett)]

Christ in the Eucharist.

[Announcer]

Now back to Catholic Answers Live.

[Host (Sy Kellett)]

Welcome back to CATHOLIC Answers live. Dutch in St. Louis, Missouri is on the line and the question has to do with what historical evidence do we have of there being temple virgins among the Jews of Jerusalem? Dutch, thanks for waiting. Tim, what do you got for me?

[Tim Staples]

Yeah, yeah. And in this brief answer, I can't get into all because there is a lot of evidence, but I just want to throw out a few here. And first comes from, and I think I mentioned this before the break, 1 Samuel 2:22. And in this very early reference, you don't get the actual words temple virgins, though we'll get to that in a moment. But this is kind of the antecedent for it. And this comes by way of the story of Eli. As you recall, Eli was very old and he was ready to die and he had not been really faithful. And the role Eli had in actually Samuel discovering his vocation and so forth, it's quite a moving story there, but just kind of in passing in 1st Samuel 2:22 we find now Eli was very old and he heard all that the sons did to all that his sons did to all Israel. Remember, his sons were very corrupt and it was, you know, at least the scripture indicates he was not the best father and that sort of thing. And how they lay with the women that waited at the door of the tabernacle right? Now, when it says waited there, if you go to the Vulgate, the verb used there is observed. It's like being an observant Jew. It has a connotation of. In other words, these ladies weren't just hanging, hanging out at the temple for the latest gossip. These were women who waited. And the indication here is they were consecrated. These were women who were dedicated to the temple. But now that word, we could get into more detail, but let me move forward here, because that word is actually very important, that waited or watched at the Temple, because it's a same verb that's also used of the liturgical activity of the Levites in Numbers, chapter 4, verse 23 and numbers 8, 24. That same word is used for liturgical observance and so forth. So again, these are not just ladies hanging out here. But now, if you also consider second Maccabees, as time moves forward, you see what is hinted at becomes a lot more obvious in the Jewish tradition. And in second Maccabees, let me read chapter three, verse 19. And the virgins also that were shut up came forth, some to the high priest Onias, and some to the walls, and others looked out of the windows and all holding up their hands toward heaven, made supplication. Again, now this is in the context of something else going on, but notice how these consecrated women are just mentioned, as if everybody knows you have these consecrated women that are there in the temple with the high priest. And they had liturgical functions as well. As you know, these were very, very holy women. So again, that's two Maccabees, three, 19 and 20. But you also have other references kind of in passing of these consecrated virgins in like the Mishnah and in the Talmud, you have quite a few mentions of them. And remember the Mishnah, the Talmud, these are just recording what is the Jewish tradition. And what you find is just like you see in the Old Testament, you see them mentioned once again, as if everybody knows that you have these temple virgins and they had all sorts of different things that they did. Let me quote you real quick. I can only do a couple of more because there's actually quite a few of them here. But it's recorded in the Mishnah that there were 82 consecrated virgins who wove the veil of the temple. Let me quote here. This is from Mishnah Shekelim, Section 8, paragraphs 5 and 6. The veil of the temple was a palm length in width. It was woven with 72 smooth stitches, each made of 24 threads, the length of 40 cubits and the width of 20 cubits. 82 virgins wove it. Two veils were made each year and 300 priests were needed to carry it. See? So once again, these temple virgins are now being said to be virgins. Now these are consecrated women. It goes back hundreds of years before this. But now we have it very plain. And remember, this is all leading up to this is before Christ still where we're talking. So for those who say there was no such thing as temple virgins, they have simply not done their homework, because in fact, there were. And there's another reference in the Talmud, Kethuboth 106A, that also mentions in passing women who made the temple veils. I got to do this one more because this one's really important. There's a whole bunch of them. But you have in the rabbinic telling of how the Romans sacked Jerusalem. Listen to this. Now this is found in the Pesikta Rabati, section 26, paragraph 6. Now listen to this. It records how that in AD 70, when the Romans were sacking and Josephus has really graphic sorts of descriptions. It was awful what happened when Titus and the Roman legions just obliterated the temple. I mean, what they did, how they even did, you know, when Jesus prophesied in Matthew 24, not one stone would be left upon another. Most people thought, oh man, that's a false prophecy. How could all of these stones, these massive stones be. They were the entire temple. I mean, the amount energy the Romans had to put into the amount of venom and hatred was absolutely. It was demonic. It was demonic. When you see, they just spared almost no one. They were butchering people. I mean, it's a horrible thing. But in one of the descriptions here, again, Babylonian in the Talmud, we have, and I'm going to quote it, the virgins who were weaving, right? And notice it just mentions the virgins who were in the temple when the temple was being destroyed. It mentions them as the virgins who were weaving, threw themselves into the flames, right? And the indication is rather than be raped and tortured to death and so forth. So at any rate, those are just some of the examples. But yeah, absolutely, there were temple virgins. But I think one of the problems is in some of these earlier references, it's like the liberal scholars who want to say Isaiah 7:14 doesn't, you know, it's not virgin. As you know, brother, there's a prophecy in Isaiah 7:14 of the Messiah being a virgin, his name shall be called Immanuel God with us born of a virgin. And of course, they all say it's alma. It's Alma. That doesn't mean virgin. That would be. Later the Greeks would translate that as parthenos, which does mean virgin, although parthenos can in some context be used as young maiden as well. But it does principally mean virgin. But that's not the point. A lot of times we anachronistically put our own sort of mindsets back into scripture that said, well, if it says young maiden, that can't be a virgin, Right. How many young maidens are virgins in our culture?

[Host (Sy Kellett)]

But it was just expected then that that meant the same thing.

[Tim Staples]

Yes, it was so expected that the term basically meant virgin. And that's why it was translated as virgin, even long before the time of Christ. And I think that's one of the problems here is what when you talk about these consecrated women in the temple, watching at the temple and so forth, now they'll later be called temple virgins. But it wasn't. They didn't become temple virgins later. They already were. But it's one of the many examples of why tradition is so important in order to understand scripture, because the fundamentalist mindset that sort of divorces every. Well, what does the word say here? Well, you know, Si. How many times have I said this to you? I could say to you, put the kitty on the table, right. And you have no idea what I'm talking about. But if we're in a pet store, ah, it's that cat over there. But what if we're at a poker game? Put the kitty on the table means something entirely different. And that's why it's so important to understand the tradition behind sacred scripture in order to understand it better. But anyway, I hope that's helpful for.

[Host (Sy Kellett)]

You, brother and Dutch, I'm gonna leave it there because we gotta take a quick break. We'll come right back. A question from in the studio for Tim Staples right after this on Catholic ANSWERS Live. Hang on. Catholic ANSWERS LIVE will return in a moment. Underwriting for Catholic ANSWERS LIVE is provided by Real Estate for Life. Real Estate for Life connects homebuyers and sellers to real estate agents while supporting pro life organizations. On the [e-mail] one of the biggest.

[Promotional Voice]

Mistakes a Christian can make is to try to do good without God's help. St Therese said, When we trust only ourselves and not God, our soul becomes incapable of virtue. Her remedy? Works of charity. And the greatest work of charity is to share the Gospel at St. Paul Street Evangelization, a Catholic nonprofit. We encourage you to share the gospel with someone who doesn't know Jesus. Catholic Answers is supported in part by St. Paul Street Evangelization. Streetevangelization.com hi, this is H. McKay.

[Announcer]

Join me for our weekly look at some of the best Catholic webcasts from across America. Catholics coast to coast, your chance to get a sample of some of the great podcasts we have [e-mail] and to encourage you in your walk with God and your Catholic faith, log in to ewtnradio.net and at podcast central is where you can find great shows. Catholics coast to Coast, Sunday night, 6 Eastern on EWTN Radio.

[Host (Sy Kellett)]

Welcome back to CATHOLIC ANSWERS Live. Tim Staples, our guest this hour, the number 888-3186-7884. But it's way better if you just come into the studio because you're guaranteed to get. Unless there's a class of high school students like there was yesterday. We got as many on as we could. Leslie just walked over here from New Orleans, Louisiana.

[Tim Staples]

That was a long walk.

[Host (Sy Kellett)]

Thank you for walking over.

[Caller Leslie]

Got my steps in.

[Host (Sy Kellett)]

Got your. I guess you did, but you came with a question for Tim.

[Caller Leslie]

Yeah, I was just wondering if there was anything in particular that I don't know if other people have experienced this, but is there anything in particular I can say or do other than pray for others who actually are in the faith, love the faith, practice the faith, they're converts and maybe not. Maybe they're cradle Catholics, I don't know. But have this sort of attitude that the church is unwelcoming the way you go about it. Is there anything in particular I can.

[Tim Staples]

Yeah. You know, this is a perennial question. I thank you for asking it because, you know, we do have to recognize that the church is not just a museum of saints. Right. It's a hospital for sinners. And we're all in that boat. We are all sinners. And so, yeah, some local parishes are going to be more welcoming than others. And, yeah, you're going to experience and people really do experience. I've had some experiences myself, even in the confessional that I would not put out there as an advertisement for the Catholic Church.

[Host (Sy Kellett)]

Oh, yeah, I know.

[Tim Staples]

Hey, come experience this. No, I don't. I wouldn't want anybody to experience that. So, you know, what I always say is, look, I respect the person because over the years, so many people have come to me with, with I'm thinking of this particular woman right now who I ended up talking with for hours. And it actually ended up going quite well, but she was treated badly. So that, you know, the one thing I don't do, and I think it's a huge mistake to do, is not believe the person or indicate. Even though a lot of times, upon further investigation, you find there was another side to that story. And sometimes it wasn't exactly. You know, there is ugly as well as beauty sometimes is in the eye of the beholder, and sometimes the beholder isn't seeing real well. And so some things they think is beautiful, you need to reconsider whether that's actually beautiful or not. And some things they think are ugly. Maybe we should talk a little bit more. But having said all of that, I then emphasize that, look, the Church is not impeccable. She is infallible. And there limitedly, you know, Pope or the bishops in union with the Pope, you know, as, you know, they have to declare something. They have to say it. It has to be to the universal Church on matters of faith and morals and freely and so forth in order for that to be an infallible teaching. So, yeah, you know, there's going to be bad experiences in the Church. But there's a phrase I used on a priest actually before I was Catholic. You may have heard this if you've heard my conversion story, but I actually was in a long discussion with a former Catholic priest who told me of some horrible experiences he had as a priest in the church in Cuba back in the 1950s. He told me, and I said to him, I said, brother. Yeah, I can say his name. Brother Caradegis. I've told this story so many times. I said, you don't leave Peter because of Judas. Why in the world would you want to leave Peter? Because you saw Judas stealing money and selling out Jesus and whatever. No, don't leave Jesus. Don't leave the church. Don't leave Peter. This gift that we have because we have knuckleheads in the church that have done you wrong and other people wrong, that should be impetus to want to get in the Church. We need you to make things better. Right. That's one thing I'm trying to do as a Catholic. I don't want to. I've done some stuff in my past. I've messed up some people. And I'm trying to say, you know what, Tim Staples, I don't want to be part of the problem. I want to be part of the solution. So, look, you know, there are going to be fights in the church. Paul and Barnabas, remember they got in Such a fight. They split. They had to go different directions for a time. That's right. In the Book of Acts, Right? Those kinds of things happen. These are two saints, and they fought and they split. So I think some people might have a little bit of a naivete, especially cradle Catholics. Maybe they were raised to believe that the Church is the bride of Christ, which she is and is so lofty and holy. And then they experience the human side, and that can be a cause of scandal. And so my kids, I will tell you, my wife is listening right now, and so are at least several of my kids. And they know we teach them this, we teach them that. Look, you know, we're not all saints in the Church. Priests make mistakes. Bishops make mistakes, Popes make mistakes. We've had some pretty interesting popes over the centuries who did a whole lot of scandalous things. Right. So distinctions, distinctions. We have to make the distinction between the infallible teachings of the Church, the magisterial teachings of the Church. We need to exalt the saints, let our kids read the lives of the saints. My kids read the lives of the saints all the time. They write papers on the saints. We homeschool. Right. Catherine, you should be writing right now. In fact, stop watching this. You go, right. She's writing a paper on Catherine of Siena right now. Or it includes Catherine of Sina. But so you teach them of the wonders of the saints, because that is one of the four marks of the Church. The holiness of the saints is inexplicable in human terms. The glory of the saints, what they've accomplished, miracles and so forth, while at the same time not sweeping under the rug or acknowledging that, hey, in order for the saints to get where they were. They were sinners at first. Right. Anyway, I hope that's helpful, but that's helpful, Leslie.

[Caller Leslie]

It is just what I was also wanting, just in the sense of, like, why we don't just let people walk in off the street and come right in and say, I want to receive communion. I guess that's.

[Host (Sy Kellett)]

Oh, that's. The person feels that's unwelcoming.

[Tim Staples]

That's unwelcoming.

[Promotional Voice]

Yes.

[Caller Leslie]

And like, trying to get them to understand that you like anything. And God wants us to be fully informed in what we're saying yes to.

[Tim Staples]

Absolutely.

[Caller Leslie]

You don't just say yes at a level of just walking in off the street. Like, there's got to be some sort of firewall, screens. I hate to say it that way, but you got to be fully informed in what. And the church has the right, in my opinion, to know that that person who's receiving, that what we know is the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, that it's not just a cracker.

[Tim Staples]

Sure.

[Caller Leslie]

And we need to know that that person knows that. And we don't know that person coming up is just saying that it's perceived as unwelcoming.

[Tim Staples]

Sure, sure.

[Caller Leslie]

That's my thing.

[Tim Staples]

It's not obviously unwelcoming.

[Caller Leslie]

I mean if how to change their.

[Tim Staples]

Perception if you knew. And I would say to anybody who thinks that it's unwelcoming to make rules as to who can receive and who can't. And by the way, we get these rules from Jesus and from the apostles in Sacred Scripture, for example, and as you know, First Corinthians 10:15, the cup which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of the Lord? The bread which we break, is it not a participation, a partaking in the body of the Lord? Right. And so skip over to chapter 11. Paul warns sternly those who if you don't discern the body of the Lord, if you are not prepared to receive the Lord, you, you can eat and drink damnation to yourself. He says, whoever eats this is verse 27. As you know, whoever eats this bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily shall eat and drink damnation. That's judgment, Krino. But it means damnation to themselves because they do not discern the body of the Lord. Therefore, let each one examine himself in order that he may receive. And so the church puts up guidelines.

[Caller Leslie]

And says so the OCIA program type of thing would help that person go through this discernment to make sure that they are not just self deciding whatever. They're given time to process this and discern this.

[Tim Staples]

That's right.

[Caller Leslie]

It's a way to defend it.

[Tim Staples]

Sure.

[Caller Leslie]

The way we do everything.

[Tim Staples]

Absolutely. And over time, you know, because I know myself, when I was Protestant, I used to say, oh, these Catholics, you know, they have this year long thing they do, it's like, where do you see that scripture? Right. When Peter preached, he said, do you believe? And they baptize him, 3,000 of them at Pentecost. Right. Well, what you see in the New Testament, now remember when Peter is first preaching there in Acts chapter two, there's one church and there's one message. Right. We didn't have 33,000 denominations. Now it's many more than that. Who even knows how many denominations are probably 40, 50,000, who knows? And all of these different cults and everything else but you see, even in the book of Acts, by the time. Now that's Acts chapter two, by the time you get up to Acts chapter 18, what do you have? When Priscilla and Aquila are preaching and they come upon this dude named Apollos. And Apollos, what is that in Acts 8, 18, I think right around verse 26 and following there, Apollos was mighty in the scriptures, convincing the Jews concerning Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. But he only knew the baptism of John. He hadn't even been baptized validly, but he was already firm in the Spirit. The scripture says he's doing great. So what did they do? They took him aside and taught him the way more perfectly. And there you have. That's kind of the beginning of the Church's discerning. You know what we need, because some are teaching the baptism of John the Baptist still, some don't know who Jesus is. In the very next chapter, you know, when Paul goes to Ephesus, he finds other disciples who only knew the baptism of John as well. And they too were believers in Jesus. They were disciples. And yet what does Paul ask them? You know, have you received the Spirit since you believed? And they said, we haven't even heard whether there is a spirit. Whoa, wait a minute. So he said, well, then they couldn't have been baptized validly because if they were, they would know Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So immediately, what does he do? Once again, it's okay, we've got to take these folks, teach them, make sure they understand God the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Make sure they understand the proper form for the sacrament of baptism and the nature of confirmation and everything else. And so they took them aside and they taught. And so over the centuries, Holy Mother Church looks after her children. And down through the centuries. You know what's amazing? I point this out to folks too, and I think y' all should. Should. I'm doing my Louisiana here. Y' all should too. Is that the Church? When you consider she is 2000 years old, you look at our catechism, it's about this thick. It is amazing. Compare that to any state. We refer to all the laws that you have in states. Try to go to the Library of Congress or wherever. They keep all the laws you can't keep. It's a massive building filled with nothing. And yet the Church has her teachings basically in one volume there. I mean, there's more, but.

[Caller Leslie]

And a lot of it's explanation of it, it is so it's not even law, law, law, law, law.

[Tim Staples]

It's phenomenal. Now of course, we can go as deep as you want to go. And there's a lot of depth in that catechism as well. And there's more liturgically and all that explanation of it. It is. And it's amazing how I used the word pithy earlier, how pithy the church is. I can't tell you how many times I'm on here with Sy, and I'll read one paragraph from the catechism on whatever the topic is, and it's so succinct and rich in one paragraph. It lays it out. We have a tremendous gift. Gift in the Catholic Church. But the Catholic Church wants to be sure that the people that are going to receive the gift are prepared to receive it. And that's basically the answer.

[Caller Leslie]

Amen.

[Tim Staples]

Amen.

[Host (Sy Kellett)]

I just enjoyed listening to the two of you have that conversation. Leslie, I'm so grateful that you came in and had that conversation with us.

[Caller Leslie]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Host (Sy Kellett)]

Yeah. Have a nice walk back to New Orleans.

[Caller Leslie]

When.

[Host (Sy Kellett)]

No, just have a nice walk back.

[Caller Leslie]

Oh, yeah. I got to get. Get those steps in.

[Host (Sy Kellett)]

You will.

[Caller Leslie]

I'm overachieving.

[Tim Staples]

Texas is a big state if you've ever had Texas. And you know what? I used to go to Louisiana. Only second to Texas. I think you've been to Eunice.

[Caller Leslie]

Oh, yeah, I've been to Eunice.

[Tim Staples]

Oh, I love Eunice.

[Caller Leslie]

Opelousis Eunice. I think it's on.

[Host (Sy Kellett)]

Oh, do you guys mind if I finish the show? I gotta conclude the show here, so whatever. Thanks for listening. Jim Staples has been our guest. Thank you to Leslie, our special guest at the end of the show, to everybody who called. If we didn't get to you, we're going to do it again tomorrow, and we'll see you then, God willing, right here on Catholic Answers Live.