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#12456 I’m Not Catholic Because I’m Hindu – Why Aren’t You Catholic? - Joe Heschmeyer
“I’m Not Catholic Because I’m Hindu” This episode explores the intersection of modern teachings and biblical truths, addressing questions like why some Hindus feel they can’t embrace Catholicism and concerns about Catholics adapting to contemporary views. We also delve into the deeper purpose of creation, offering a thoughtful examination of faith and belief. Join the Catholic Answers Live Club Newsletter Invite our apologists to speak at your parish! Visit Catholicanswersspeakers.com Questions Covered: 02:15 – I’m not Catholic because I’m Hindu. 22:14 – I’m not Catholic because Catholics are conforming to modern times instead of teaching what the bible says? 44:30 – What is the point of God making all of this?
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- [00:00]
Announcer
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- [00:33]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
Joe Heschmeyer, our guests welcome back. Another hour of why aren't you Catholic? And just one line open. That means we've got lots of non Catholic folks that have been willing to call. And we do appreciate that. 888-318-7884 is the number. Joe is a wonderful apologist here at Catholic Answers. I'll just read some of the books that he's written. The early church was the Catholic Church. Pope Peter defending the church's most distinctive doctrine. In a time of crisis, the Eucharist is really Jesus. How Christ's body are the key to everything we believe. That's just three of them. That's just three of his many, many books. And he also is the podcaster behind Shameless Popery. And you can find Shameless Popery the way he described it before it seems like you can barely miss it. Just step outside, you'll probably be in it. He said you can go to anywhere where you get your podcast. You can go to YouTube and look up Shameless Popery or Joe Heschmeyer. You can go to Spotify. Is there anywhere where it doesn't exist?
- [01:32]
Joe Heschmeyer
Yeah, I mean, I think if you were like in a local Amish market or something, you wouldn't be able to get it very easily.
- [01:37]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
Oh, that's probably true. Yeah.
- [01:38]
Joe Heschmeyer
I mean, they use technology for certain work related things, but it might be hard to convince them that that was work related.
- [01:44]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
Yeah. A Catholic apologist. Yeah, that might be hard to convince the Amish to give up.
- [01:48]
Joe Heschmeyer
Yeah, maybe.
- [01:50]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
All right, 888-318-7884 is the question. And Arch is all the way over in Hawaii. And so I want to get to Arch. I'm not going to take any more time. Arch, welcome. Wait, what are you supposed to. I meant to say, Arch. Aloha. Why aren't you Catholic?
- [02:12]
Arch (Caller from Hawaii)
Hey, how's it going? Can you guys hear me very well?
- [02:14]
Joe Heschmeyer
Yes, we can.
- [02:17]
Arch (Caller from Hawaii)
Okay, cool, cool. Yeah, I'm not Catholic because I'm Hindu and so I've been reading a lot recently. I've gone through the Bible in a year with Father Mike Schmitz and I started the catechism in a year. And there's a lot that I think that corresponds with the teachings of Hinduism. And particularly I'm in the like, iskcon section. And I wanted to get your guys thoughts on reincarnation. And like, what is the Christian or.
- [02:59]
Giovanni (Caller from Houston, Texas)
Catholic.
- [03:02]
Arch (Caller from Hawaii)
Refutation on reincarnation? And like, because I know Christians believe that we are both body and soul, whereas in our tradition it's we're not the body. And so I just want to see like how you guys view that. Okay, reincarnation.
- [03:25]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
Well, let's do that and then we'll come back to you and see what you think of the answer.
- [03:29]
Joe Heschmeyer
Joe, I've got a couple questions. Ishkan, this is a group, someone is called the Hare Krishnas, right?
- [03:35]
Arch (Caller from Hawaii)
Yes, that's right.
- [03:37]
Joe Heschmeyer
Okay. The Krishna consciousness is Akan, I assume in Ishkan. Yep. With reincarnation, how do you harmonize that? Well, okay, let me, let me step back even a little further within the cycle of reincarnation. I know that includes humans and at least some animals. How low in the kind of evolutionary org chart does that go? Like, does that include like single celled organisms? Like is there a chance you would die and come back as like an amoeba?
- [04:08]
Jeremy (Caller, agnostic)
Yes.
- [04:08]
Arch (Caller from Hawaii)
So in our tradition that everything that has life has a soul, basically. And there is a chance that if you die, you can become an amoeba or bacteria.
- [04:21]
Joe Heschmeyer
It seems like for this to work you would need a fixed number of living things throughout all time. Is that fair to say?
- [04:32]
Arch (Caller from Hawaii)
Right, right.
- [04:34]
Joe Heschmeyer
But it also seems like we know that the number of living things has grown from zero to a few to a bunch. That's true whether you look at like human history or the history of animals or the history of, you know, organic life on earth. So how do you harmonize that with a view of reincarnation?
- [04:56]
Arch (Caller from Hawaii)
Yeah, So I mean, I have to say I'm not particularly a scholar in my faith, but what I do know is that there is this idea that there are always souls there falling from the heavenly planets or the spiritual world. And so they're entering the material world and thus populating the world that we live in.
- [05:27]
Joe Heschmeyer
Okay. And so they go from like a pre existent spiritual realm to becoming material. And then is the goal eventually to like escape that and reach nirvana in that way?
- [05:43]
Arch (Caller from Hawaii)
Exactly, exactly. And so one thing that we actually are quite similar on, as opposed to like the Buddhists and other people we believe in reincarnation, is that we believe that there is a God above all other gods. And the purpose of life is to develop a personal relationship, a loving personal relationship with him and to be reunited with him in heaven, so to speak.
- [06:13]
Joe Heschmeyer
So what? I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you what would be like, good evidence you would see for that? Because I assume, like, we don't have any conscious experience or memory of having lived some other existence. And a lot of the beings that we're even talking about. I don't know what it would mean to say that this human used to be an amoeba. And, you know, because an amoeba doesn't have any of the, the elements of a human soul. And so, you know, this thing used to kind of move around and then it died. Okay. There's a certain sense we could talk about it having a material form and we can call that a soul, but we don't really mean the same thing by that word as we do when we talk about a human being having a soul with like an intellect and will. So what would it mean to even say that you used to be an amoeba or, you know, an animal or whatever else?
- [07:11]
Arch (Caller from Hawaii)
Yeah, so it would mean that you are. Because we believe that the soul is less of, like, our qualities as a human and it's the spark of life. So like that spark is the soul and everything else is either your, you know, physical, material, body or something like your, your mind, which would be considered part of your subtle body.
- [07:36]
Joe Heschmeyer
Okay, yeah, that. Yeah, that's a good point. I'd forgotten about the subtle body. That does make for a different metaphysic. Yeah. Because it seems like the, the spark of life thing. We want to affirm that there is something like that. Like even the word anima in Latin, which is the word for soul, is like the animating principle. So if you were to take like, two. Peter Kraft gives the example of like, two identical cows. One of them dies. The difference between them isn't at the physical level, at least not right away. They might have the same number of cells, they might have the same identical looking organs, but one of them has this spark of life within it and one doesn't. That there is in the case of one, an animating principle of the body, and in the case of the other, that animating principle no longer exists. And so the body decomposes. And so that part, I think we would. We would find some common ground. I think the difficulty is in the case of an animal, and even more so with like a lower life form, the. These are not subsistent souls. These are not souls that can exist apart from the body. And so to talk about that spark of life going into another thing would be like saying, well, this one thing I have has an on switch and then it gets destroyed. But this other thing I have also has an on switch. And I think in some way those on switches are spiritually connected to each other. And it's just not clear what that kind of claim would even mean. Because if they're not physically one turned into the other, what kind of spiritual quality that's bringing in is a little amorphous. So I think we would just say we don't see any evidence that subhuman life forms have immaterial souls and that therefore a cross species reincarnation would be precluded. For that reason, at the level of reason, you know, the, the number of living beings, the number of humans, or the number of all species, whatever, would have to be fixed. And all evidence seems to point to the fact that it's instead going up and we don't have any conscious experience, like memory of past lives that would put any weight on the other side of the ledger. Just to support maybe that being the, the idea that rather everything seems to point to the fact that we didn't exist before we were conceived and that when we die there is a sort, a certain permanence to death, while at the same time we would believe death doesn't have the final word. There is a finality to death that the decisions we make in this life are permanent, for better or for worse. So you're not going to have a situation where you live a holy life and then die and then have to do it over again. But you're also not going to have a situation where you live an unholy life, reject God, die, and then, you know, get another bite at the apple. So whether that's good or bad news, I think depends on the kind of life one one leads. But we would, we would argue that, I think, both from reason but also pretty clearly, you know, Scripture teaches that is a portion unto all men to die once, after which comes the judgment. That there is a clear biblical denial of anything like reincarnation in favor of what's called the specific judgment upon death.
- [10:58]
Arch (Caller from Hawaii)
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. And there are a lot of things in my own faith that I have a hard time reconciling, like the things that you mentioned. And in a certain sense it comes down to something like what is the definition of a soul? Because even in our faith, when we die, we forget everything and then we get put into a new body. And so. But that would be a completely different person or living being, right?
- [11:28]
Joe Heschmeyer
Like what it means to even call that you. If you have no connection bodily or psychically, or you Know, psychologically, you know, like, how is that still you? Is one of the questions that I've grappled with in trying to understand it. Yeah, I had some exposure to Ishkan and the Bhagavad Gita when I was in my teens and early 20s, and I found some good impetus to delve more deeply in these questions. I mean, the Bhagavad Gita is beautiful, but at the same time, I think the message that it has is deterministic in this way that as a Christian, as much as I've appreciated kind of what it did for me, if I'm being honest, I'm grateful that the Christian message seems to me much more optimistic and hopeful than I get from any of the early Hindu texts.
- [12:25]
Arch (Caller from Hawaii)
Right, right. I guess my last question would be like, in short, what would your definition of the soul be from a Christian point of view?
- [12:36]
Joe Heschmeyer
So, okay, you're asking a philosophy nerd to do a short answer to a question that could go much longer. But it's the. At the very broadest level, it's the immaterial principle of life for material things. So that's for all things. And in the case of a human, because we have a rational soul, it is also the seat of the intellect and the will. It is that part of us that isn't reducible to the body and that part of us that can survive even when the body is destroyed. That there are parts of you that are just your. You know, they're so tied up in your body, you can't even imagine, like, what does it mean to, you know, stub your toe without a foot? It doesn't seem like it means anything. But there are other things where to remember, to contemplate, to pray. Those things don't appear to be reducible to the body. That we have evidence that there's more to ourselves than just our bodies. And the term for that spiritual center is the soul.
- [13:43]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
I tell you what, I want to keep talking about the soul and Hinduism and Catholicism and all of it, but I have to take a break. There is a limit set on these things. So, Architecture. I'd love to send you one of our books. Joe, do you want to recommend a book that you think we should send to Arch? Is there one that strikes you as. That would be a good one for to send.
- [14:02]
Joe Heschmeyer
I mean, a lot of Arch. I get the feeling like you're very open to kind of exploring the spiritual riches of what the Catholic Church has to offer. And I wonder if. Oh, what? I'm blanking. What is the book we just came out with. It's kind of a spiritual handbook for Catholic apologetics. What is that? Am I ringing a bell here with me or not?
- [14:23]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
Somebody tell me. Cause it's not ringing a bell.
- [14:26]
Joe Heschmeyer
Maybe we need to send why We're Catholic. It's a tried and true and it won't leave me trying to remember a book title.
- [14:31]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
And I'll look up that book and.
- [14:32]
Joe Heschmeyer
Then, Arch, please feel free to call back and continue this conversation. Who delight to talk to the soul of apologetics. Oh, yeah, send them both.
- [14:41]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
Send them both. Of course. The soul of apologetics. Okay, we'll send you both of those, Arch, if you'd like them. Why We're Catholic in the Soul of Apologetics. It's actually, it's lovely that you called and talked about your Hindu faith, because I must admit, and it probably has to do with the demographics of the United States, we don't get as many calls from Hindus as we would like to get. From time to time we do, but we'd love to get more. So, you know, if you're Hindu and you didn't call today, Arch is just better than you. That's what I'm saying. 888-31-87884.
- [15:15]
Announcer
Stay with us for more Catholic Answers Live.
- [15:18]
Sponsor/Promo Voice
Underwriting for Catholic Answers Live is provided by Magnificat. Published monthly, Magnificat features texts of daily Mass, prayers, articles, meditations, art commentaries, and more in step with the liturgical rhythm of the church. On the web@Magnificat.com why do we need to pray?
- [15:35]
Joe Heschmeyer
Well, the Catholic faith is all about communion with God. And prayer is the form that our communion with God takes. If we're not praying, we're not in communion with God. But we can get in communion with God really quickly by prayer. It's the easiest, quickest, and only route to connect to our Creator. And that's what we're made for. That's why we need to pray. Did you hear I got a cat? No.
- [16:11]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
You got a cat? Is this a joke?
- [16:15]
Joe Heschmeyer
No, people on YouTube.
- [16:18]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
Welcome back Catholic Answers Live. Joe Heschmeyer, our guest, just said the most astonishing thing right before we went back on the air. You can't say those things to me. And now I'm dying of curiosity. You got a what?
- [16:31]
Joe Heschmeyer
Yeah, we got a cat. So the backstory went like this. My wife and my kids wanted a cat, and I said, we can't have pets. I travel. I don't need one more thing. We've got three small kids. A cat would Be a terrible idea. And our friends said, you guys need a cat. And they sold us their house, and they said, one of the conditions of the house is you need a kitten. And I was like, yeah, right. We're not getting a cat. And then last week, I went back to the house for something, and I see our friend drive up and she and her friends get out of the house with a kitten and a bunch of stuff and say, we brought your new cat. So.
- [17:10]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
So you got a cat.
- [17:13]
Joe Heschmeyer
Yeah, it. I. If I'm being 100% honest, it's an adorable kitten. And I took to Patreon, which, by the way, is shameless. Joe.com. and I asked people on Patreon and I asked people on YouTube what we should name it and got a gazillion punny answers like, Seamus Pot Puri.
- [17:31]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
Yeah.
- [17:32]
Joe Heschmeyer
And Seamus is a name. It works on a lot of levels. But we narrowed it down to, like, four, and then we couldn't decide on those four names. And then we put it to a vote, and thousands of people voted.
- [17:45]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
Oh, nice.
- [17:45]
Joe Heschmeyer
And the name Leo won. And so we named him Leo on the feast of Saint Leo on Monday. And, you know, also in honor of both Saint Leo and Pope Leo, and the fact that Leo means lion. So it's funny. Cause he's a cat.
- [17:59]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
Yeah, that is funny. And it's good. So you got a little cat, Leo.
- [18:02]
Joe Heschmeyer
Leo.
- [18:02]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
I.
- [18:04]
Joe Heschmeyer
Yes, exactly. All right. Hopefully, Leo the only. Just for the record, but I like him so far.
- [18:10]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
Well, I'm glad that you like him, Joe. I have a little ambivalence about cats, but I think it's because I've been deathly allergic to them since. Not deathly. I'm not going to die if I'm around a cat. I shouldn't have said it that way, but I'm miserable around a cat, so I never really got to enjoy a cat very much. And now they have these hypoallergenic cats. They, like, bred them so that they don't. I'm just not sure that's good for the cat. I mean, I'm like, what did they do to that cat? Did they irradiate it? So I. I have very mixed feelings about cats, but I'm glad you got Leo.
- [18:42]
Joe Heschmeyer
Yeah. Try not to get toxoplasticity, whatever it's called.
- [18:46]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
I don't know what that is.
- [18:47]
Joe Heschmeyer
There's like, a brain disease you can get from cats.
- [18:50]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
Oh, you seem like you have it.
- [18:52]
Joe Heschmeyer
Yeah. I don't know what that.
- [18:55]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
Toxoplasmosis. It's A, it's like a cat, cat based brain disease.
- [18:59]
Joe Heschmeyer
It's a cat born thing. Yeah, it's, it's. Most cats are symptom, are asymptomatic.
- [19:05]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
Oh, all right. I have a note from Carrie here. Radio promo for Rhine cruise. We want you to come on the Rhine with us, Joe Heschmeier, Chris Check and I, we sometimes do this thing called the flannel panel and flannel panel is going to cruise the Rhine from Amsterdam to Basil and it's going to be wonderful. We're going to visit with Hildegard of Bingen and Charlemagne and the Three Kings and none of whom are alive. But we are going to. Well, I shouldn't say that. I mean they're just no longer with us here on this planet. But we're going to visit with them and we're going to talk about them and we're going to have a great time going to the heart of where Christianity came in, came to the Germanic people. And that's one of the great successes of Christianity on this earth. And so just a lot of wonderful stuff to see and we'd love it if you'd come. You just go to Caradio 2020. No, no, you don't. That's not. I said that wrong. You go to catholiccruise.com and you use the promo code CARADIO2026. Could we get a longer promo code? We're only going to have savants on this trip with us. Anybody like me is not going to remember that. All right, go to catholiccruise.com and if you use the promo code Caradio 2026, you get $300. And if you go there and they don't have the cabin you want because I have to be honest with you, some of the lower cost cabins, they go first and. But if we don't have the cabin you want, you call us. We're going to find a way to get you on there. We'll find a way to get you on the. Because we want to make sure this thing is full. We're getting close to being full, but we want it to be full. Caradio 2026. Use that as the promo code when you go to catholiccruise.com right now we are talking with.
- [20:54]
Joe Heschmeyer
Real quick question. Do they have geese along the Rhine?
- [20:58]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
This is. Okay, let me just tell anybody who's a new listener what's about to follow is a joke that's going to make you groan. Okay, prepare to groan.
- [21:05]
Joe Heschmeyer
You're not wrong. I want to make sure they know.
- [21:07]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
I know when the groan inducing jokes are coming. Cy, do they have geese along the Rhine?
- [21:14]
Joe Heschmeyer
Why?
- [21:14]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
I don't know. Joe, do they have geese?
- [21:16]
Joe Heschmeyer
I don't either, but I'm hoping to see a male one so that I can point while we're on the boat and say, look, Ryan Gosling.
- [21:27]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
The show's over. Just go home, everybody. I don't. Even if you're driving, I'd say, get off, turn around, go back to wherever you came. There's just no point. Why go on? Why go on after a joke like that?
- [21:37]
Joe Heschmeyer
The joke that causes an existential crisis is. I mean, that's just what the.
- [21:42]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
You need to all go home and read Camus. That's what you need to do now. Because life has just become literally the.
- [21:51]
Joe Heschmeyer
Worst advice you've gotten.
- [21:53]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
I'm only kidding. Don't read Camus. By the way, they should have a whale at SeaWorld named Camus. 88831. 87884 is the number. 88318 to go with Shamu.
- [22:05]
Joe Heschmeyer
Yeah, I was thinking like the French SeaWorld. That'd be a nice one.
- [22:08]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
Giovanni in Houston, Texas. Giovanni, we're so glad you're here, but why aren't you Catholic?
- [22:16]
Giovanni (Caller from Houston, Texas)
Yeah, so pretty much. I mean, I'm going to try to condense these into. I have four questions, but I'm trying to condense them into just two questions.
- [22:25]
Joe Heschmeyer
Okay.
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Giovanni (Caller from Houston, Texas)
Actually, I did think about being Catholic. I used to watch Joe Heschmeyer a lot, and he was actually one of the driving forces for me to become Catholic. I personally don't have a problem with the Papacy personally. However, the problem that I have actually stems from the Pope, which is one of my first issues. One is, if the Pope is going to be the focal point in the face of Catholics, then he needs to. Right now. I feel like in that parable about building your house on rock, on solid rock. And he has. When I build on sand, I feel like the Pope is built on sand right now, because if you're going to be the focal point of Catholics, but you're allowing same sex attraction, acceptance and inclusion, transgender inclusion. And even though you, you're not exactly affirming marriage when it comes to that, but you're accepting it, making it seem as though that's okay. And then when you try to correct individuals when it comes to things like that, I feel like it becomes a contradiction because even in like and like, in like Romans 1, chapter 18 to 31, God gave them over to their depravity, to their sins and to include to that. He also said that we need to synergize, which is the other question, which I'm just going to throw in there as well.
- [23:56]
Joe Heschmeyer
Okay.
- [23:57]
Giovanni (Caller from Houston, Texas)
That we have to be respectful to other religions. But you have other religions, like people that believe in the Quran, who say that they deny Jesus is the son of God, they deny that he's God. You got the Jews who deny Jesus at all. So if you're gonna ex. If you're gonna say we have to be respectful to religions that disrespect the God that we say is God. How can I put my faith in you as a pope to lead us in the direction to be the focal point of Catholics when you contradict what God says? Because even John the Baptist condemned people when they, when they disrespected the words of God. But yet Pope Leo, even the pope prior to him, we. There's pictures of him kissing the Quran. And that's where my contradictions kind of came in at. To where I'm just like, I can't be part of a. A faith that contradicts what the Bible is teaching.
- [24:55]
Joe Heschmeyer
Okay. Yeah. I think you did a very good job of presenting that. I don't know the exact quote you have in mind about needing to be respectful to other religions from Pope Leo. So I will try to answer in a general way, but there may be a specific line that, that he said that troubled you that I haven't heard, but he has talked about some of the common things that we can find that other religions as well, we can have. Oh, yeah. Okay, here we go. He said, our world needs our unity, our friendship and our collaboration that as Christians we can find ways to work with people who aren't Christian, who still believe in something in a world that's often very secular and atheist. And I think I would. I would agree with that. Without believing that this makes those other religions equally true or valid or anything like that. Somebody trying to understand the nature of the universe, someone trying to have relationship with God, we can have a kind of meaningful conversation in a way where somebody who doesn't care about that stuff isn't even ready for that, if you will. I will answer kind of in more depth, Giovanni, after this break. We can't.
- [26:10]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
Please do hold on, Giovanni. We want to take a good long time to talk with you after this.
- [26:16]
Announcer
Have you ever wondered about the mysterious, even obscure aspects of the Catholic faith? Dive into the Jimmy Akin podcast, where Jimmy brings together information from many fields as he pushes the boundaries of apologetics. Tune in today to the Jimmy Akin podcast Mysteries of the Faith, a highly entertaining, informative and at times humorous show that will help you grow in your faith. Visit jimmyakinpodcast.com today to subscribe.
- [26:46]
Sponsor/Promo Voice
Lots of people have big questions about Catholicism. It needs a big book of answers. And now it's got one. The Big Book of Catholic Answers is filled with helpful replies to more than 250 questions about the faith, questions about God, salvation, history, the Creed, the Bible. The list goes on and on. Order your copy of the Big Book of Catholic answers today@shop.catholic.com or ask for it at a good Catholic bookstore near you.
- [27:16]
Announcer
What was the church like in its infancy?
- [27:18]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
In a word, Catholic.
- [27:20]
Announcer
And Joe Heschmeyer has the receipts in his best selling book, the Early Church Was the Catholic Church. He gives you the details from the historical records of the first two centuries of Christianity. Right now, get a copy for just $10 plus free shipping. If you live in the continental United States, get more information and order. The early Church was the Catholic church@the.
- [27:43]
Sponsor/Promo Voice
Earlychurchwascatholic.Com what is the Catholic Church? Everyone seems to have an opinion, but the church never quite fits into the boxes people make for it. In the Faith Unboxed, author Andrew Petaprin looks at some of the most common boxes people put the Catholic Church in and explains why they don't fit in. Doing so, he brings us closer to what the church really the institution founded by Christ. Order the Faith unboxed today@shop.catholic.com or ask for it at a good Catholic bookstore near you.
- [28:29]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
Welcome back to CATHOLIC ANSWERS live. We asked, why aren't you Catholic? And quite a few people have been generous enough to call if you want to call. Let me look at the lines. Well, we probably could get one or two more calls on the air with Joe before the top of the hour. So if you're not a Catholic and you would like to get in on the conversation, we've had all kinds of calls from all kinds of angles of why a person is not Catholic. And it's just been great for us. We are Catholic. We don't hide that we're trying to help other people to come into the Catholic Church. We don't hide that. But we think conversation is the way to do that. And if you want to have that conversation with us, 888-318-7884. Giovanni in Houston, Texas, actually is open or has in the past been open to the Catholic faith, but does not find the church to be much of a rock. If I'M expressing that correctly for two reasons as far as I can understand it. One of them having to do with compromising with the sexual mores of the world. The worldly sexual mores that we see around all of us, not being firm enough in standing up to that. And the other one, I think you did number two first, right? Joe, did you take two first? Go ahead.
- [29:41]
Joe Heschmeyer
Because I think there's something of a logical flow in my mind to how I think this should go. Because there has been a push from the time of the Second Vatican Council onward to say, what good can we find in other people's belief systems, even when those belief systems are wrong? And you could focus on where are they wrong, what do they get wrong? And I think there's a time and place for that. I do that a lot with my show Seamus Potpourri, and not knocking that in the slightest. The danger in doing that can be that people come away with an exaggerated sense of how far apart we are. And the other danger is that you can miss some opportunities for collaboration. The flip side is to say, what do we have in common? And that's also a good approach. The danger can be that sometimes you can come away with an exaggerated sense of how close we are. And the distinctives of each tradition or belief system, etcetera, can be sort of lost in the wash. That seemed fair so far, Giovanni?
- [30:46]
Giovanni (Caller from Houston, Texas)
Yeah, I mean, in a. I mean, I wouldn't. I mean, I want to say yes, but at the same time, I, I, like I said, I feel like right now Catholics kind of contradict the Bible, which is why I gave you Romans, because I feel like Romans 1, chapters 1831, kind of. It pretty much contradicts when they say that they want to include these individuals, then you. And then even as far as being respectful to other religions. Right, so let's bring that you have James 4, verses 3 to 5, where it says, you adulterous people, do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore, whoever wishes to be friends with the world makes himself an enemy of God. And by trying, do you think that.
- [31:26]
Joe Heschmeyer
Means like having non Christian friends?
- [31:29]
Giovanni (Caller from Houston, Texas)
No, no, that's not what I mean. Okay, so it's like this, right? So you can, you can have non Christians friends, but if they're insane sin, we're going to correct them on their sin. What the Catholic Church right now as a whole is doing is they're saying, we're going to hear out the other religions, be buddy buddies with them, but we're not going to correct their view on how to go to God. Even though Jesus says, I am the way, the truth and the light, no one comes to the Father except through me. So we're not going to try to emphasize that to them. How can I put my faith into the church that if we're gonna, if we're going to hold the Pope as we did Peter, St. Peter.
- [32:09]
Arch (Caller from Hawaii)
Right.
- [32:09]
Giovanni (Caller from Houston, Texas)
Because that's the, that's the whole point of the piece. Like I said, I don't have a problem with that. However, if my, if the person who's a focal point of the church is not holding true to the Bible in the word of God and how Peter taught or even how John the Baptist lives his life when he condemned people, well, how can I, how can I bring people of, like the faith of Catholic to other people when they allow sin in, in the church?
- [32:35]
Joe Heschmeyer
Okay, yeah. So I would, I would say both these things are good. Like, you can't just be buddy buddy with sin, but we are called to love sinners. And so, you know, in Luke 15, one of the critiques Jesus has is that he eats with tax collectors and prostitutes. Right. That this is one of those things where there's a little bit of a pastoral tightrope to walk where you want to affirm people and not drive them away, but you don't want to affirm sin. And there is absolutely a time and a place to really call people to the carpet for their sin, individually as well as collectively. That time and place is not always the first thing you say to someone. And so I agree with you that sometimes I think they err on the side of being too buddy, buddy too soft on some things that church leaders are sometimes not strong enough or as, as tough as they should be in some of these. But I don't think that actually makes them that different than St. Peter. St. Peter preaches this message of how the plan of salvation includes uncircumcised Gentiles. He does this in Acts 10 and 11. It's reiterated in Acts 15. But in Galatians 2, when he's in Corinth and he's with this group of Jewish Christians, he kind of buckles a little bit. He doesn't teach anything false, but he just doesn't take a very bold stand. He doesn't stand up for the Gentile Christians and therefore he doesn't stand up in this moment that really could have used it for the truth of the Gospel. But that doesn't make him not the Pope. It doesn't mean we throw out Peter as an apostle or anything like that. We just recognize that sometimes even good Christian leaders can fail to live out the kind of pastoral leadership that we want from them. And that's been true literally since the first century. That's been true literally since the 12. And I'm just talking about the good Christian leaders there because the Bible is very clear that God will sometimes give us leaders who aren't good leaders. Think about people like Judas. And so you've got good and bad bishops, you've got good and bad popes, you've got good and bad apostles. The truth of Christianity doesn't turn on how good or how bad the practitioners of Christianity are. And that's true whether we're talking about you and me. That's true whether we're talking about the 12. It's true whether we're talking about the Pope. So I'm sympathetic to saying we could use more strong language on the truths about sexual immorality and the distinctiveness of Christianity, although I think if we're being fair, Pope Leo has said, for instance, in August 24, he gave his Angelus about how Christ is the narrow way, and he preaches about that and warns us not to imagine that, you know, religious acts and a sense of self complacency are going to do the trick. Like he does say those things. He also says things where he tries to affirm the. The other things we can, we can rightly affirm, but that's partly just recognizing, as St. Paul does in Acts 17. One of the challenges is what can we build from in terms of common ground? Not so that people come away thinking all religions are equally valid or everything's equally true, but precisely so that we can have a kind of meaningful conversation and having a starting place to even have. Because if we, if we just have like nothing in common at all, it's unlikely anyone's going to be converted by the gospel or come on board. But if we can interact with the beliefs that they already have that are right and then lead them into the fullness of truth pastorally, that is often a more productive way of getting people to, to see the fullness of the Gospel. I don't know if that makes sense or not. Giovanni, what do you think?
- [36:38]
Giovanni (Caller from Houston, Texas)
I mean, in a sense, like I said, in a sense it makes. So I agree with you on having a starting point when it comes to maybe other religions, you know, since I guess if they believe in a God, we can have an open discussion as far as that goes. So I guess I agree with you on that. But as far as I would say, the direction of the Church, if we're going to choose leaders and go with the interpretation of we have good popes and we have bad popes, then the whole focal point of Catholic religion is papacy. And like I said, I personally don't have an issue with it as long as the Pope is standing on what Jesus and the apostles were teaching. And we can sit here and say they should take a more firm stance. However, that's not something that needs to be said to a Pope. That's supposed to be the overall view that that has guidance by God. If you're me, like you said, me and you, even yourself, right, you say, well, I, you know, the approach could be stronger. However, the fact that you can say that, but the Pope isn't doing that and is allowing, like I said, transgenderism. He's affirming that because he's not condemning it. He could still bring it up, but yet the Catholic Church is affirming these actions.
- [38:08]
Joe Heschmeyer
But I don't hate to say that I think I agree with that way of thinking about morality. I mean, he has been Pope for under a year. So is the idea that of all the sins in the world, everything he doesn't personally call out by name, he's okay with.
- [38:26]
Giovanni (Caller from Houston, Texas)
As far as what?
- [38:27]
Joe Heschmeyer
Well, I think about all the different sins, all the different things he could have spoken on. It seems like your argument is, unless he specifically denounces it, he must be okay with it. I don't think that's a fair standard to hold anyone to. I don't even think you would want to hold. Like, I've heard people argue that. Oh, okay, go ahead.
- [38:44]
Giovanni (Caller from Houston, Texas)
No, no, I'm sorry.
- [38:45]
Joe Heschmeyer
Go ahead. Oh, I was going to say, like, I've heard people say, like, oh, Jesus doesn't explicitly condemn homosexuality, therefore he must have been okay with it. And I don't find that line of argumentation persuasive at all. And so I wouldn't, I don't think it would be enough to say we don't have enough words specifically condemning these particular sins from the Pope. Therefore he's condoning it. Is there something he said that makes you think he's okay with transgenderism or agrees with it or something?
- [39:16]
Giovanni (Caller from Houston, Texas)
No. So I'm not saying that he himself said anything. However, what I am saying is that even with the last Pope that we had, you know, of, like I said, him kissing the Quran, this picture of him doing that, and yet the Quran denies the, the, the godhood of Jesus, and I'm not saying that Pope Leo does that. But even. No, what I'm saying is that if you're going to take. If you're going to take a st. Going to take the position. And yes, I'm granting him the chance of him being there for a year, but the fact of the matter is that no conversation, he hasn't openly either as well. Haven't said. Because the only issues I normally see with Catholic, like I said those first two was them saying that we need to be open and try to be respectful to other religions that disrespect who Jesus is and then just allowing things that are outside of the Bible into the church and not directly bringing it up into conversation. Like, okay, you know what, we're gonna bring these people in, but we're bringing these individuals in to help them seek God. However, that's not, that's not even a focal point in conversation, is just, we're gonna bring them in. We're going to. They even said that they even bless same sex. They don't affirm the marriage, but they say that they blame. That they, they're doing blessings for same sex. They're allowing them to be witnesses to baptism. And I'm like, I don't know if that's, if that's biblical, I might be off on that. But like I said, I watched a lot of your videos, so most of the information that I got, I got from. From your, from your YouTube channel. Because you were, like I say, you were a focal point to me deciding whether I wanted to go Catholic or not.
- [40:59]
Joe Heschmeyer
Yeah, I'm sorry, I wasn't clear on some of that then. I do think, you know, in terms of just like, on the transgender thing or anything like that, if you look up Pope Francis, gender ideology, you know, he had a much longer time of being pope and had more opportunities so far to speak out on that. And I think he has many really very strong things to say on this. He was very gentle with individuals who were, you know, suffering with gender dysphoria and everything. But he was very clear that he thought gender ideology was one of the biggest dangers of our time. Those two things are compatible. And I, I would view the papacy, whether it's Leo or Francis or Benedict or John Paul in, In the same light that they're trying to love sinners and be strong on hating sin. You might think that they could do a better or worse job on that. I don't think the truth of the papacy comes down to how well you would grade them on that. Like, the, the question is Ultimately, does this authority come from God or not? If it doesn't and they're pretending it does, and we shouldn't follow them, even if they're really good leaders, if it does come from God, then we should follow them, even if they're not always the best leaders. Because, you know, someone in the first century would hopefully not say, like, yeah, I don't love that apostle. I don't really like his style, so I'm not going to join his church. That's not how Christianity is meant to work. So I think I understand the concerns you have. I just want to make sure we don't end up asking the wrong question of do I agree with all of the decisions the pope makes? I would venture to guess no one in the history of the church has ever said, I agree with every decision every pope in my lifetime has made. But thanks be to God, it doesn't matter. Like, it doesn't come down to each of our individual decisions. That's one of the beautiful parts of having a pope, instead of it all being our own individual judgment. So I would just ask if, you know, focus on that question of does the authority come from God or not? Sorry, go ahead.
- [43:05]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
That's okay. I was going to say thank you to Giovanni, and I hope you'll call more Giovanni again, I'm so grateful for the conversation, a wonderful opportunity for conversation with you. If you'd like Joe's book, Pope Peter, I'd be happy to send it to you. You're under no obligation, of course, but just give us an address in Houston. We'll send you that book if you'd like, and call anytime. We'd love to continue to have this convers. I, however, have to go to a break, and I'm looking ahead at the next two calls, and I really want to make sure I have time to get these two callers on with Joe. So if you're on the line, just hang on. We're going to take a very quick break. We'll be right back and get you on with Joe Heschmeyer on CATHOLIC Answers Live.
- [43:40]
Announcer
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Joe Heschmeyer
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- [45:11]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
Welcome back. Catholic Answers Live. Why aren't you Catholic today? Joe Heschmeyer, our guest, Jeremy in Oklahoma on the line. Jeremy, thank you for the call. Why aren't you Catholic?
- [45:25]
Jeremy (Caller, agnostic)
Hey, so I think that for, from me, from an agnostic perspective, I've got a question for you. And then that will kind of lead.
- [45:37]
Joe Heschmeyer
Into.
- [45:40]
Jeremy (Caller, agnostic)
My, my reasoning why I'm not Catholic. So from, from a Catholic perspective, why did God create all of this? Like, why is it even all here?
- [45:52]
Joe Heschmeyer
Out of an abundance of love. So the best analogy I would use is when a couple gets married, they love each other a lot. There's an effusive nature to that love where you want to share that love with others. And so you, in that case, have kids. You know, that's a pretty natural reaction of just like the overflowing nature of love. And so in one sense, why did God make us to know, love and serve him in this life and to be happy with him for all eternity? That's, you know, why we're here. Why is all of the cosmos here? Out of the kind of abundant outpouring of the love of God.
- [46:34]
Jeremy (Caller, agnostic)
So we're all here to know and love and serve God.
- [46:39]
Joe Heschmeyer
That's. Yes.
- [46:40]
Jeremy (Caller, agnostic)
I mean, like, really short, right?
- [46:43]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
That, that's like Baltimore Catechism. Jeremy, have you read the Baltimore Catechism? Like, I think you actually quoted it.
- [46:49]
Jeremy (Caller, agnostic)
Oh, no, no.
- [46:51]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
Well, yeah, for an agnostic, you're very Catholic.
- [46:55]
Jeremy (Caller, agnostic)
Okay, well, more Catholic than I thought maybe. No. So, okay, so if that is why we're all here, from, from a Christian perspective, whether we're talking about Catholics or Protestants, God is all knowing and all present and all powerful, right?
- [47:16]
Joe Heschmeyer
Yeah.
- [47:17]
Jeremy (Caller, agnostic)
Okay.
- [47:18]
Joe Heschmeyer
Yep. That's right.
- [47:20]
Jeremy (Caller, agnostic)
So if this was the purpose of God, why did he create a world knowing that he would have to send his son to die? Why not just Create a world where we could be in, you know, relationship with them and, you know, be, you know, love him and worship him forever. Like, you know, it just doesn't make sense. Like we apologists jump through all of these hoops, but, like, very simply, if God's all powerful, why not just create a world where none of this ever even had to happen?
- [47:51]
Joe Heschmeyer
Yeah, it's a good question. So there's really several questions kind of baked into that. Why does God create man in a condition where he can rebel in the first place? Why, when man rebelled, does God not just say, don't worry about it, why does he instead insist on like the fittingness of the incarnation and Jesus dying on the cross and all of this? Right. So there's several ways of going about answering that question. Because it's really a very big question in a good way, but it's a very big question. And I think part of the key to this answer is that we are not just lab rats and we're not just recipients. We are called to be participants in this plan of salvation and we're called to be made like God. First John, chapter three. John says, beloved, we are God's children. I'll just quote, he says, see what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God. And so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Beloved, we are God's children. Now. It does not yet appear what we shall be. We know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. So the Christian message isn't just sin is a problem. And here's this really complicated legal way of resolving it. It's rather that God creates these creatures, humans, and then embarks on this all of history long journey where he interacts with his creatures and then unites himself with them personally in the person of Jesus Christ. That Jesus Christ is both God and man. That by taking on humanity, the story of the history of humanity becomes tied up, as it were, with the story of God. So that we aren't just the problem in the story. We're not just the antagonist, we're also able to be part of the protagonist. Where does that make sense? Like one of the things St. Thomas Aquinas presents is exactly, maybe, if not exactly your argument, but at least very similar of like, well, couldn't God have just said, like, I'm going to wave away the problem of evil, I'm going to wave away the problem of sin. And yet instead he has Christ come in and dies this really ghastly death and everything. Why do that? And he offers five different reasons. But the one that I find the most beautiful is that he talks about how in this way, we are made part of the solution to the problem of sin rather than just part of the problem. Like, as a. As a father, I know how much easier it is when my kids make a mistake to just fix it for them. But I know how much more important it is to take the time to do it with them and let them be part of the solution to a problem that they made. And then, in a mysterious way, the incarnation, Jesus shows us that, like, he cooperates with us and becomes one of us so that we can share in this salvific, redemptive act. I don't know if that just sounds like crazy talk to you. Does that make any sense at all?
- [51:20]
Jeremy (Caller, agnostic)
Honestly? No, it doesn't.
- [51:22]
Joe Heschmeyer
I'm sorry.
- [51:23]
Jeremy (Caller, agnostic)
No, it doesn't really make a lot.
- [51:24]
Giovanni (Caller from Houston, Texas)
Of sense to me.
- [51:25]
Jeremy (Caller, agnostic)
I. From my perspective, it's just I'm still kind of stuck on, you know, So I feel like what I heard you say was, okay, well, the reason why is because we're created in his image. We're supposed to play a part in this, you know, reality that he's created. And I don't. I don't really connect the dots between those things. And, like, why, even if. If I'm all knowing, all powerful, all present, why even create. Why create it the way that it is? You know?
- [52:05]
Joe Heschmeyer
Well, what specifically? That's too big of a question. Maybe why create what in the way.
- [52:10]
Jeremy (Caller, agnostic)
That, like, okay, so, yeah, like, why. Why create a world where you as God, I know I'm going to create people and people are going to fall away from me. And in this perfect relationship that I create them in, you know, why. Why do that? Why, when that is going to happen, do I have to go through this whole crazy.
- [52:40]
Joe Heschmeyer
Well, let's take the first half of. That's like, the first half of that first. Because I think that'll be maybe more productive. What would you have God do instead? Like, just create us already in heaven or not create us at all.
- [52:53]
Jeremy (Caller, agnostic)
So let's go back to the point. Like, if the point is to. Out of an abundance of love, to share love with people.
- [53:02]
Arch (Caller from Hawaii)
Why not?
- [53:02]
Jeremy (Caller, agnostic)
Yeah, create people in a way that he could share that love with them forever without having to do all of this?
- [53:09]
Joe Heschmeyer
Well, I think he does. It's kind of like saying, if you're a wealthy parent, why not just give your kids, like, a big inheritance rather than having them like share in the family business because it's not good for them that it we are better served by actually being part of the plan where we're not simply recipients, but are actually given the dignity of causality.
- [53:35]
Jeremy (Caller, agnostic)
Yeah, that's hard too, because. Okay, so the, the elect then are better served by it. But then those that aren't, you know, go through all the suffering because those that are, are going to be better served by having gone through it. Like, how do I reconcile a loving God with a God that would do that?
- [53:59]
Joe Heschmeyer
Yeah, I think with the reality that those who aren't elect, it's not because God didn't want them. God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth that's explicitly taught in 1 Timothy 2. There are versions of Christianity that seem to functionally deny that, but the Bible itself doesn't. The Bible itself is very clear. God desires the salvation of every individual. Christ dies on the cross for every individual. So God in love for us, wants to strengthen us and prepare us for the glories of heaven, even though he knows some of us will reject those free gifts that he's given us.
- [54:33]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
If you'd like it, Jeremy would love to send you the book why We're Catholic by our colleague Trent Horne. I'm sorry, I left a call on the line. I really wanted to get to everybody, but it's become very popular, this show of why aren't you Catholic? And we enjoy it a great deal. So we'll keep doing it. We'll do more of these to try to give as many non Catholics as we can a chance to have these conversations with the apologists. And we'll all. I'm sure we will all benefit from. Least I hope we will all benefit from that. Joe Heschmeyer, thank you for two fine hours.
- [55:05]
Joe Heschmeyer
My pleasure. And thanks everybody who called in. I thought they were great calls today.
- [55:08]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
Shamelessjoe.
- [55:09]
Joe Heschmeyer
Com.
- [55:09]
Host (possibly Cy Kellett)
That's where you can find about Joe Shameless. Joe, we'll see you tomorrow, God willing. Right here. Catholic Answers Live.