#12480 Why Do We Believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist? - Joe Heschmeyer

Summary

Catholic Answers Live #12480: Why Do We Believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist?

Guest: Joe Heschmeyer
Host: Cy Kellett
Date: November 29, 2025

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Overview

This episode features Catholic apologist Joe Heschmeyer responding to audience questions on the Catholic faith, centering primarily on the Real Presence in the Eucharist. The show also addresses theological topics on Mary, the Apostolic Fathers, baptism, indulgences, the priesthood, and ecclesial history—all in a spirited, friendly, and accessible style. Heschmeyer draws from Scripture, early Church writings, and personal scholarship to clarify Catholic doctrine and dispel common misconceptions.

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Key Points & Discussion Highlights

1. The Role of Mary in Catholicism

Question: Why is Mary seen as more than just a saint in Catholicism?

• Speaker: Joe Heschmeyer
• Timestamps: [05:05] – [13:49]
• Main Ideas:
  • Importance of distinguishing between Church teaching and individual practice.
  • Recent Vatican clarifications emphasize Mary's unique role, without equating her to Christ or compromising His sole mediatorship.
  • Scriptural Basis:
    • Genesis 3:15: Protoevangelium prophesying a spiritual battle between the devil and the woman (ultimately Mary).
    • Revelation 12: The woman crowned with twelve stars, giving birth to the Messiah and attacked by the dragon (Satan).
    • The “woman to mother” motif, seen in both Genesis (Eve) and at the Cross (John 19:26-27), underscores Mary as spiritual mother to all believers.
• Notable Quote:
  “From the beginning to the end of the Bible, we see there is a spiritual battle between the devil and the mother of Jesus.” —Joe Heschmeyer [11:52]
• Summary: Mary's centrality is deeply rooted in Scripture; she’s both the mother of Jesus and the spiritual mother of all Christians, playing an integral, biblically-grounded role in salvation history.

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2. The Apostolic Fathers and Apostolic Succession

Question: How do we know the Apostolic Fathers were taught by apostles?

• Speaker: Joe Heschmeyer
• Timestamps: [16:50] – [21:00]
• Main Ideas:
  • Explains who the Apostolic Fathers are (Ignatius, Polycarp, Clement).
  • Cites historical documents—like Irenaeus’ Against Heresies and the Martyrdom of Polycarp—that directly attest to these bishops’ relationships with the apostles.
  • Polycarp’s connection to John and Irenaeus’ eyewitness account are viewed as robust historical evidence.

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3. The Real Presence in the Eucharist

Question: Why do Catholics believe the Eucharist is the true body and blood of Jesus, not just a symbol?

• Speaker: Joe Heschmeyer
• Timestamps: [21:24] – [25:46]
• Main Ideas:
  • Early Church figures like Ignatius of Antioch (disciple of John) took the Real Presence for granted:

    They abstain from the Eucharist... because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ...” —Ignatius, as quoted by Heschmeyer [22:35]

  • Scriptural basis: Parallels between the Old and New Covenant rites; Jesus’ explicit words at the Last Supper (“This is my body... this is my blood of the covenant”).
  • Hebrews 9 and Exodus 24: Both covenants inaugurated through real blood—the New Covenant, through Christ’s actual blood in the Eucharist.
  • Symbolism is insufficient; the fulfillment of the Old Covenant types requires a real, not just symbolic, offering.

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4. The Indelible Seal and Significance of Baptism

Question: Does the indelible seal of baptism have deeper significance than is often taught?

• Speaker: Joe Heschmeyer
• Timestamps: [29:34] – [36:02]
• Main Ideas:
  • Baptism is transformative—cleansing sin, bestowing spiritual rebirth, imparting the Holy Spirit, and admitting believers into the Church.
  • Scriptural roots: Ezekiel 36, Acts 22, John 3, Acts 2.
  • Supported unanimously by early Christian writers.
  • Quote:
    “Baptism is something we receive more than something that we do. We allow ourselves to be transformed in a way that we cannot possibly do ourselves.” —Joe Heschmeyer [35:45]
  • Scholarly support referenced: Everett Ferguson’s Baptism in the Early Church (p. 854).

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5. Wisdom as Feminine and Jesus as Divine Wisdom

Question: How do we reconcile Wisdom being referenced as feminine in the Old Testament with Jesus being called the “Wisdom of God”?

• Speaker: Joe Heschmeyer
• Timestamps: [37:16] – [38:12]
• Main Ideas:
  • Old Testament “wisdom” is often personified as feminine due to grammar (“wisdom” is a feminine word in Hebrew and Greek).
  • This is literary personification, not an incarnation; Jesus fully embodies divine wisdom, but the figure in Wisdom literature is not a separate divine female being.

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6. Partial vs. Plenary Indulgences

Question: What’s the difference between plenary and partial indulgences?

• Speaker: Joe Heschmeyer
• Timestamps: [40:18] – [45:08]
• Main Ideas:
  • Plenary: Complete removal of the temporal punishment due to sin.
  • Partial: Partially removes temporal punishment.
  • Scriptural precedents for praying for purification of others (Job 1:5; 1 John 5:16; 2 Maccabees 12).
  • The theology of indulgences rests on the Christian responsibility to aid in the purification of others, including the dead.

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7. The Priesthood in Catholicism vs. Protestant Views

Question: What is the Catholic response to “we don’t need priests because Jesus is our only priest”?

• Speaker: Joe Heschmeyer
• Timestamps: [45:59] – [51:07]
• Main Ideas:
  • Scripture distinguishes between the “priesthood of all believers” (1 Peter 2, Exodus 19) and the ministerial priesthood (Isaiah 66:21).
  • Not all sacrifices can be offered by every believer; some are reserved for ordained priests.
  • The unique sacrifice of the New Covenant is the Eucharist, which only priests consecrate.
  • Early Christians and St. Paul made clear analogies between Old Testament sacrifices and the Eucharist’s sacrificial nature (1 Corinthians 10).

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8. Historical Removal of Anti-popes and Popes

Question: How were anti-popes and valid popes removed from office?

• Speaker: Joe Heschmeyer
• Timestamps: [51:28] – [54:18]
• Main Ideas:
  • Historical context: The Papal Schism, multiple simultaneous papal claimants.
  • True ecumenical councils (e.g., Council of Constance) can depose anti-popes, but not a valid reigning pope.
  • Only a valid, properly convoked council—typically with papal cooperation—can resolve such crises.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Mary in Salvation History:
  “The devil hates Mary. Mary has some kind of important role to play in this whole story.” —Joe Heschmeyer [07:58]

• On the Eucharist and the Early Church:
  “Both Ignatius and his readers take for granted that the Eucharist is in fact the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ.” —Joe Heschmeyer [22:23]

• On Baptism’s Transformative Power:
  “Baptism isn’t just this nice thing we do to show how much we believe in God. Baptism is this transformative spiritual event that God does for us.” —Joe Heschmeyer [35:13]

• Lighthearted Banter:
  Host Cy Kellett’s playful interruptions and Heschmeyer’s good-natured responses highlight the energetic, accessible tone:

  • “Plenary is complete. Partial is partial. Come on, Brittany, that was in the—I'm just kidding... I assume more than that.” —Joe Heschmeyer [40:18]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

| Segment | Topic | Timestamp | |---------|--------------------------------------------------|-------------| | 1 | Mary’s role and scriptural background | 05:05–13:49 | | 2 | Apostolic Fathers’ connection to apostles | 16:50–21:00 | | 3 | The Real Presence in the Eucharist explained | 21:24–25:46 | | 4 | Baptism’s significance and the indelible seal | 29:34–36:02 | | 5 | Wisdom as feminine and Jesus as Wisdom | 37:16–38:12 | | 6 | Partial vs. plenary indulgences | 40:18–45:08 | | 7 | The necessity of the Catholic priesthood | 45:59–51:07 | | 8 | Handling of anti-popes and valid popes | 51:28–54:18 |

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Concluding Thoughts

Throughout the episode, Joe Heschmeyer offers robust, scripturally based answers with warmth and clarity, addressing misconceptions from both within and outside the Church. The Real Presence in the Eucharist is shown to be integral to the fabric of Catholic faith and practice—anchored in tradition, early Church authority, and the Bible. The episode balances deep theological exploration with a light, approachable style, making complex topics accessible to listeners of all backgrounds.

Transcript

[A]

Buying or selling your home. Real Estate for Life can connect you with a pro life real estate agent. When Real Estate for Life receives a referral fee, they donate 65% to Catholic Answers. Learn more at realestateforlife.org. Welcome back to CATHOLIC ANSWERS Live. I am Cy Kelly. Your host, Joe Heschmeyer is our guest. It's the day after Thanksgiving, and thank you for being here with us. Maybe you're traveling, maybe heading home, maybe heading on to the next visit for the weekend. Maybe you're at home and usually you're at work. If you're new to Catholic Answers, if you're just discovering us, you can find out all about what we do by just visiting [e-mail] mostly. You will find an enormous, almost unbelievable, encyclopedic breadth of question and answers about the Catholic faith there. And one of the people who contributes to that work and has been contributing to it for years is apologist Joe Heschmeyer. He's the author of a whole bunch of books, really, a whole bunch of books. The only one that's coming to mind right now is a man named Joseph, Guardian for our times. But he also wrote the Eucharist is really Jesus. He wrote Pope Peter. He wrote the early church was the Catholic Church. And just before we went to the break, I gave him, like, I think it might have been seven seconds to talk about his very popular podcast, Shameless Potpourri. Shameless Papist. Joe Heschmeyer, welcome back for another hour.

[B]

It's my pleasure to be here.

[A]

Go ahead, say something about your. Your podcast.

[B]

Sure. So the podcast is really. That's enough.

[A]

All right. Moving on. I'm just kidding. That's what it felt like I did to you last hour.

[B]

I got the joke. I liked it.

[A]

I'm sorry about that. Go ahead. You can really Shameless Opry. Go ahead.

[B]

I'm not going to do it again. Short episode, not this short, but short episodes.

[A]

Take me out of the mix, Jeff. So he trusts me. Take me out of the mix so he knows I won't talk.

[B]

And it has short episodes on Tuesday and long episodes on Thursday. Explore a wide range of theological questions. A lot of times what I'm doing is looking at different objections people have to Catholicism. So let's say you or somebody you love is coming from an evangelical Protestant background. You may have certain understandings about the Catholic Church, certain objections, certain questions. I try to present those objections as fairly as I can and then give an answer to them. And it's been a. It's been a Real joy to do it. We've got a couple hundred episodes now, and it's going strong. I mean, the community is growing, and it seems like people are responding well to it and. And a lot of people who, you know, it's not just preaching to the choir. A lot of non Catholics watch it and seem to get something out of it. So I'm very grateful for that and very grateful for whatever role I can play in helping to remove some of the misunderstandings and obstacles people might have about the church and whatever tools I can give people to help proclaim the truth of Jesus Christ and his church more clearly.

[A]

ShamelessJoe.com is where you can go to find out all about it. Is it ever fun? Do you ever just have fun?

[B]

I try to have some fun sometimes. Absolutely. I just want to make sure you'll let people decide for themselves. Fun's a little subjective.

[A]

Yes, that's true. I suppose fun is subjective. Yeah. All right, we got leftovers. What does that mean? People call the show all the time, and we try to answer everybody. If we can get to them, we'll answer them. But sometimes there's a great question that we really thought, well, it'll be fun to get to that one. By the time we get to that line, they're not there anymore and they've been replaced by somebody from Florida. That's how it always works. They always get replaced by somebody from Florida. I'm not sure why it works that way, but what we did was we gathered up all those leftovers questions that were still on the board when we finished the show, and now we're sharing them with Joe Heschmeier. And I believe we're on Andy in Atlanta. Joe, do you happen to know whether we're on Andy in Atlanta?

[B]

That looks right to me. Okay.

[A]

Because do you notice that Andy and then Trevor after him, they have the same number by them. Whoever made this board, I cannot work this way. I don't have the excess brain power.

[B]

To work that out. I think it's the line number. And so they were on the same line, which, if they were actually on the phone, would be very confusing. All right.

[A]

Oh, Andy was listening on the Quest. I love the Quest. What a great big booming radio station down there. And one of America's most important banter.

[B]

With Andy right now. He can't hear you. I mean, maybe. Maybe. Andy, if you're listening, I take it back.

[A]

Don't call, though, Andy, because we're not here. We're actually home in bed right now recovering from the damage we did yesterday with pie. Mine was, Was. Was pumpkin pie. Joe's was. I'm going to go.

[B]

Oh, I'm sorry.

[A]

I was going to guess. Let me see if I can guess. I think pecan.

[B]

I mean, maybe apple, actually.

[A]

Andy in Atlanta wants to know this. A stumbling block. This is the stumbling block he has, is how Mary is treated more as more than just a saint.

[B]

Yeah. So I think this is something we have to make a lot of distinctions with. One is, are you saying the Catholic Church itself presents Mary this way or some Catholics you've met? Because it's possible somebody you've met has a dysfunctional spirituality or a misunderstanding of Mary's role. The ddf, you know, recently came out with a document clarifying ways of expressing Mary's role that are helpful and unhelpful. And it really reiterates Mary has this very special role to play in salvation and in redemptive history. And this is biblically supported. This has been believed in as far back as you go in Christianity. And yet also, we don't want to say anything that would make it sound as if Mary is either equal to Christ or if Mary somehow interferes in the. The soul mediation. You know, Christ is the one mediator between God and man. The man Christ Jesus, who dies on the cross as a ransom for our sins. He's the one who is the bridge between humanity and divinity. Mary doesn't compromise that and she can't copy that and doesn't try to. She's a disciple. She's not the Messiah. And so I would be hesitant to assume that the people that you're hearing think Mary is this Christ like, messianic figure. But if they do, they're wrong. And you can just believe that they're wrong without therefore rejecting the Catholic Church. If you want, though, maybe it'd be helpful to explore. Well, why make a big deal about Mary in the first place? And I want to give two answers. One is there is this great spiritual battle that Mary is very much a part of that we see in Scripture. And I want to just highlight a couple passages in case you haven't noticed them. The first one is going back to Genesis, chapter three. You've got the fall of Adam and Eve. Eve at the time is known as Woman. She has not yet had her name changed to Eve, which means mother. And in Genesis 3:15, God says to the serpent, who we know to be the devil, that he's going to put enmity between him and the woman and between your seed and her seed, then he says he shall bruise your head and you shall bruise his heel. So who is the seed of the woman? Quite obviously Jesus Christ. This is the first prophecy of Christ. But if that's the case, who's the woman in question? On the surface, you might think it's Eve. After all, her name is Woman. But she doesn't give birth to Christ. And the measuring of the seed through the woman is quite unusual. The seed is almost always measured through the man. There's only one other instance in the entire Bible where the seed is measured through the woman. And in the particular case that happens, it's because it's measuring Abraham's descendants by two different women, Sarah and Hagar. So you can't measure the seed through Abraham because it wouldn't delineate. So the only times the seed is measured through the woman, there's a good reason for it. In the case of Abraham and Sarah and Hagar, it's because same dad, different moms. Why here does it not say, I'll put enmity between you and Adam and between your seed and his seed? Why does it say her seed? Well, because we know who the seed is, the virgin born Jesus Christ. We know that it's because the woman here isn't really Eve. The woman here is Mary, the mother of Jesus. That's why this is a prophecy of Jesus and not the descendants Cain and Abel from Eve. And so this, you know, this is one of the early texts that people would point to called the Proto Evangelium, the first gospel, because it is the first prediction of the virgin birth. It's a little subtle, but it's there. So if that's true, then that means that God has just told us as far back as Genesis that he's going to have a spiritual battle where there's going to be a spiritual battle between the devil and the mother of Jesus. I don't know how else you get around. I'll put enmity between you and the woman. It's not just between you and the seed of the woman, it's between you and the woman. So the devil hates Mary. Mary has some kind of important role to play in this whole story. Now go from the first book of the Bible to the last book of the Bible, Revelation, chapter 12. John sees this great vision in heaven and it's a woman who appears to be enthroned in heaven. She's wearing a crown of 12 stars and she's giving birth to a child. And the child that she gives birth to in verse 5 and is a male child. Who is destined to rule all the nations with the rod of iron? Who is that child? Well, in an obvious sense, that's Jesus, because this is one of the messianic prophecies of Jesus from the Psalms. And this description of Jesus ruling with a rod of iron is also used explicitly of Jesus in Revelation. So the woman who is crowned in heaven would appear to be the mother of Jesus. Now you'll have people say, oh, this is a metaphor for Israel, metaphor for the church. That's fine. It can be all of those things. Just as the one to rule the nations with a rod of iron can be both Jesus and, in a certain way, the saints. Because if you read Revelation 19, it talks about Jesus ruling with the rod of iron. If you read Revelation 2, it talks about the saints ruling with the rod of iron. So in a certain sense, who's the offspring? Yes, it's Jesus. Yes, it's also the saints. Who's the mother? Yes, it's Mary. Yes, it's also the church. And so we talk about mother church and mother Mary. And this is all biblical because, well, we're going to see that in just a moment, the mother of Jesus is depicted as our mother, too. And so in the text Revelation 12, this child and his mother are being attacked by a great dragon. And verse nine, it says the great dragon was thrown down that ancient serpent who's called the devil and Satan. Now, significantly, this is actually the first time we're told explicitly in the Bible that the serpent in the garden in Genesis 3 is Satan. But Revelation 12 is clearly nodding towards Genesis 3. So if you want to understand Revelation 12, you have to understand Genesis 3 and Revelation 12, like Genesis 3, is all about the battle between a woman and. And the serpent and the serpent. In verse 17, we're told then the dragon was angry at the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring. So who are the other children of the mother of Jesus? John tells us those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. So why do we give this special place to Mary? Number one? Because from the beginning to the end of the Bible, we see there is a spiritual battle between the devil and the mother of Jesus. And number two, because we're told that the mother of Jesus is our mother too, in faith. Last thing here. I know this is a very long answer, but in Genesis 3, there's this fascinating moment where Eve has her name changed to Eve. And it's very strange when you read Genesis 3 because they're in the middle of being punished. And right in the midst of that, in verse 20, Adam changes his wife's name suddenly from woman to Eve because she is the mother of all living. And at the time she's the mother of literally no one. She has no kids until Genesis 4. As far as we know, she is still a virgin. And this is how she was understood to be by the early Christians as well. They saw the virgin Eve as a pre figurement of the Virgin Mary. We don't need to get into all of that. But this woman to mother shift is, is very strange and surprising there. But in John 19, as Jesus is atoning, as he is repairing the damage done by Adam and Eve and the original sin and everything else, he looks down from the cross, sees his mother, sees the beloved disciple John and says, woman, behold your son. And then he tells John, behold your mother. The same woman to mother shift that you get in Genesis 3:20 we get again in John 19. But now she's the mother of the living in Christ, those who keep the testimony of Jesus. And so the beloved disciple receives her and takes her into his home. That doesn't just mean he took care of her in her old age. There is a real sense that we need to receive Mary because she as the mother of Jesus, has this important role to play and pointing us to him.

[A]

I hope that that was the answer. Well, I'm sure that it was the answer you're looking for because you got the whole thing there, both barrels. But I hope it was helpful to you.

[B]

And there's more. I could go more if you want to just give no more questions. We could, we could do some more on this.

[A]

No, I know, I know. This is such an important part of our faith and I think you have to give all that in order to make it clear to somebody who says, well, Mary is being overly celebrated. Well, you can go back to scripture and you can see why we don't neglect Mary in what we might call the economy of salvation. Her role is astonishing, really, and we should be astonished by it. Well, I got to take a break, so we're going to come back and get to our next number one caller, Trevor in Omaha, Nebraska, right after this on Catholic Answers Live. Catholic Answers Live. Underwriting for Catholic Answers Live is provided by Real Estate for Life. Real Estate for Life connects homebuyers and sellers to real estate agents while supporting pro life organizations. On the [e-mail] Underwriting for Catholic Answers Live is provided by Magnificat, published monthly, Magnificat features daily Mass, prayers, articles and meditations in step with the liturgical rhythm of the Church. On the [e-mail] another great podcast on EWTN. Podcast Central is restless. It's for zany Catholic young adults seeking God in the midst of this crazy, mixed up world. They discuss life, relationships, work, fun and everything else in our world through the lens of our Catholic faith. You can hear this and other faith filled podcasts from our friends and affiliates around the world at EWTN podcast central. Visit ewtn.com radio and click on Podcast Central today. Welcome back to Catholic Answers Live. It's leftover day in America, the day after Christmas. In England they call it Boxing Day, and my understanding is they just fight with each other. I may be misunderstanding Boxing Day. I it's never been fully explained to me, but yeah, it's Pugilism day. But in America, the day after Thanksgiving is maybe it's not labeled that, but it is in fact leftover day. We eat leftovers because we cook a giant feast. We eat so much of it so quickly that we're uncomfortable on the couch afterwards and then we just do it again on the Friday on the next day. So today is leftover day and we've got leftovers for you. This call from Trevor in Omaha, Nebraska, who was watching on YouTube, got left over because we lost him on the line at some point. But he wanted to know, how do we know that the Apostolic Fathers were taught by an apostle?

[B]

Yeah, it depends a little bit on which Apostolic Fathers. So when we talk about the Apostolic Fathers, we mean the very first Christians after the Apostles. So this is going to be people like St. Ignatius and St. Polycarp and St. Clement. And we have a weak tradition about Ignatius being the disciple of John and a much stronger tradition about Polycarp being a disciple of John. And Ignatius and Polycarp are friends. I think it's actually pretty fair to at least guess that Ignatius is also a disciple of John's, that this is why they know each other as well as they do. But let me just lay out the evidence we have for Ignatius. Like I say, we don't have a ton of early direct evidence. There's an ancient writing called the Martyrdom of Ignatius that mentions him being a disciple of the Apostle John. But for Polycarp, we have much clearer evidence because Polycarp himself has a famous student named Irenaeus. Irenaeus against heresies 180 he writes, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are the four Gospels. I mentioned him all the time. Irenaeus tells us quite a bit about Polycarp. And one of the things he tells us is that Polycarp learned about Christianity from the Apostle John. But we actually know that even from before Irenaeus, that we know, I guess we know of the relationship of Polycarp and John and Irenaeus from even before that, because at least the Irenaeus Polycarp relationship is testified to in the martyrdom of Polycarp. Now, the martyrdom of Polycarp is this phenomenal document. It is from, I want to say, the year 154. But we have it in this remarkably narrow window because the whole kind of incident with the martyrdom of Polycarp is that Polycarp, when he dies. Sorry, 155, I just looked. Polycarp dies at the age of 84. And we know this because one of the things he says at his trial is that he's been following Christ for 84 years. That seems to mean he was baptized as an infant, otherwise he converted very early on. And maybe he's slightly older than we think he was. But we also know to within about 12 months when he was martyred, partly because of the. The account of his martyrdom which was written for the first anniversary of his death. So this isn't some, you know, hundreds of years later. Let's write down the stories people have been telling for years about Polycarp. No, these are eyewitnesses who are writing about the death of Polycarp less than a year after it happened, which is fantastic. I mean, it's just one of the best early pieces of evidence. And one of the lines in there is these things. Caius transcribed from the copy of Irenaeus, who is a disciple of Polycarp, having himself been intimate with Irenaeus. And Isocrates transcribed them to Corinth from the copy of Caius. Grace be with you all. So they even tell us exactly the kind of chain of evidence. The version we have is the version that was written down by Socrates, who got it from Caius, who got it from Irenaeus, all extremely early on. And these people are still alive when all of this is happening. And so later, when Irenaeus talks to us about how Polycarp had been a disciple of John, we know for a fact that he's not just some random person trying to associate himself with Polycarp. We know this was a known disciple of Polycarp who is described by others as having been intimate with him. And so when he tells us he was a disciple of John, that's Really good evidence. And then you have other people where it's a little more disputed in terms of, like Clement, for example, Clement of Rome, in terms of whether he's the same Clement that appears in the New Testament or not. You will find scholars who disagree about that sort of thing. But there is a Clement mentioned in Philippians 4 who a lot of people have suggested is the same Clement, that he's the companion of Paul, who then follows Peter as the next Bishop of Rome or the third Bishop of Rome.

[A]

All right, Trevor, thanks very much for that question. And on we go. Sarah In San Antonio, Texas was listening on 89.7 FM and she wanted to know this. Why do we believe that the Eucharist is the true body and blood of Jesus, if from a scholarly perspective it seems like it's just a symbol?

[B]

Yeah, well, since I just mentioned these Apostolic Fathers, these very early Christians, I want to actually turn to them first. There are other ways you could look at this from within Scripture itself, but I. I mentioned the Gnostics last hour. Ignatius of Antioch, who again is widely believed to have been a disciple of John's. Even people who don't like what he has to say have to concede he probably was a disciple of John. He clearly runs in the same circle as Polycarp. We have letters between them. Or a letter of Ignatius to Polycarp, a letter from Polycarp mentioning Ignatius. Ignatius is the bishop of one of the most important places in the early church, Antioch, where Christians are first called Christians. He seems like the kind of person who would have been formed by the Apostles, given that he's such an important early leader, etc. In any case, he warns against the Docetus, saying they abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, in which the Father of his goodness raised up again. So notice both Ignatius and his readers take for granted that the Eucharist is in fact the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ. So that's a good reason to believe that it really is that if you want to know what John 6 means, and it's you reading it versus someone reading it, but also knowing John personally and being taught Christianity by John, all other things being equal, I'm going to give them the edge in terms of the likelihood they're understanding the text correctly. But there's another way you can go about it as well. In Hebrews 9, there is this obvious parallel being made between the inauguration of the first covenant and the inauguration of the second covenant. Because there's very similar language Moses uses when he talks about Exodus 24. He says, Behold the blood of the covenant which the Lord has made with you in accordance with these words. Hebrews 9, when it records, says, let me find the exact wording here. This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded you. Hebrews 9. 20. So notice Hebrews 9 actually blends in a certain way the words of Jesus and the words of Moses, that the inauguration of both the Mosaic covenant and the Christian covenant happen in these very similar ways. The story of the covenant is so important that the term New Testament literally means new covenant. These 27 books of the Bible are all about God coming and making a new covenant with his people in the person of Jesus making a new covenant with the house of Israel with which was foretold in the Old Testament. And this new covenant is with the church. So the only time, the only time Jesus actually uses the word covenant, he's at the Last Supper. So if you want to understand the new covenant, and the New Covenant is the key to understanding the New Testament according to, you know, the name of the thing, you should look to the Last Supper, where Jesus says, this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many. Mark 14:24. That. Then you want to read Hebrews 9 and you want to read Exodus 24. And it would help if you, you know, if you read my book, the early church, excuse me, the Eucharist is really Jesus. It has a whole section on the formation of covenants and what that means for the Eucharist. But the important part is this covenant formation in the ancient world often involved a sacrificial offering and an offering of blood. And the reason for that is that it's kind of like, you know, if you've ever become like blood brothers with somebody, it's a sharing at the most intimate level. And so when Moses says, this is the blood of the covenant, it really is the blood of the covenant. When Jesus at the Last Supper says, this is the blood of the covenant, we believe that also really is the blood of the covenant. And that. That's not irrelevant, that's actually critical. Like it. You actually need the blood of Jesus to inaugurate the covenant. Otherwise he's not really inaugurating the covenant when he says he is. And Jesus's only teaching about the covenant turns out not to be true, which would be a very strange conclusion to come to. It'd be very strange to say Moses says, this is the covenant and he means it and it really does inaugurate the covenant. Jesus says the same thing and it doesn't do anything.

[A]

That is not music we can ignore.

[B]

Take a quick break.

[A]

We'll be right back with more questions left over for Joe Heschmeyer on Catholic Answers Live. We hope that one of the things that we communicate here at Catholic Answers Live is that our Catholic faith allows us to be fully serious about all the problems we we encounter in the church and in the world. But it also lets us have light hearts and maybe even mix in a bit of fun. And that is exactly what our good friend Joe Heschmeyer does in his popular podcast Shameless Potpourri. You should check it [e-mail] Joe's got a deep grasp of the faith, morals, the teachings of the Church, all that, but he's also got a witty conversational style. He entertains and he informs, but you will leave equipped to better answer the most common challenges, misconceptions and questions about the Catholic faith. He's got insightful guests he does on air debates, and he takes a close look into all the things that you want to know about as a Catholic living today. You'll walk away knowledgeable and filled with joy. Look for Joe on his YouTube channel. Check him [e-mail] or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you hear, become a patron. Lots of people have big questions about Catholicism. It needs a big Book of answers. And now it's got one. The Big Book of Catholic Answers is filled with helpful replies to more than 250 questions about the faith, questions about God, salvation, history, the Creed, the Bible. The list goes on and on. Order your copy of the Big Book of Catholic answers [e-mail] or ask for at a good Catholic bookstore near you. What is the Catholic Church? Everybody seems to have an opinion, but the Church never quite fits into the boxes people try to make for it. In the Faith Unboxed, author Andrew Petiprin looks at some of the most common boxes people put the Catholic Church in and explains why they don't fit in. Doing so, he brings us closer to what the Church really is, the institution founded by by Christ. Order the Faith unbox [e-mail] or ask for it at a good Catholic bookstore near you. Welcome back Catholic Answers Live again. Thanks for being here with us on this day off here in America after the big Thanksgiving feast. Joe, I have to admit to something to you. I got myself crossed up and I don't actually know which question I'm going to now. Can you tell me?

[B]

I believe we are doing the question about why don't we do the question about baptism at the very bottom? Karen and Peoria.

[A]

Okay, now you have completely baffled me. I'm going to the very bottom.

[B]

Yeah, why not? What? Of what? Oh, I see it. Wait, somebody moved it. All right. I just moved it to try to help you. All right. Okay, now I'm in Peoria, illinois, listening on 94.3. That one.

[A]

And it's. Karen said this. It seems that the. Somebody is messing with it. Don't touch it while I'm reading it. Are you all trying to confuse me?

[B]

All right.

[A]

Karen and Peary wanted to know this. She seems the indelible. It seems that the indelible seal of baptism carries with it more significance than what is spoken or taught about. Oh, what a great question, Karen. I'm glad we did get to it. Thank you.

[B]

Yeah, it does. I mean, baptism is this tremendously significant moment. And it's easy to sort of trivialize it. It's easy to treat it as just, you know, a nice thing to do for babies or this. This one important moment in your life. But it is so rich, it is so important that I do wish more people really dwelt on the meaning of baptism. And one of the places the early Christians pointed to for understanding the meaning of baptism was Ezekiel 36, which was a foretelling of how God was going to sprinkle clean water upon his people and purify them. And in that text, which is verse 24 to 28, he makes at least four major promises that I want to highlight. I highlight these in my book. The early church was the Catholic Church, number one. He promises a kind of cleansing of sin through water. He says, I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean. From all your uncleanlinesses and from all your idols. I will cleanse you. Okay, that's the first promise, cleansing of sin through water. Second promise, spiritual rebirth. He says, a new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I'll put within you. That then leads to the third promise, the gift of the Holy Spirit. He says, I will put my spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances. So we've got a new heart. We're going to be led by the Spirit. And then finally there's this promise of entrance into the people of God. You will be my people, and I will be your God. So cleansing of sin through water, spiritual rebirth, the gift of the Holy Spirit, entrance into the people of God. And the early Christians read this as about baptism, and I mean unanimously, universally understood passages like these to be about salvation through baptism. So are they right? Do we see those kind of promises being made in the New Testament for baptism? And I would suggest we just take them one by one. Cleansing of sin through water. You've got it. Acts 22. St. Paul is recounting his own conversion. He has a kind of. I guess I'd call it like a road to Damascus moment. And he is blinded. And then Ananias comes to him and he comes to believe. But that's not the end after that. Verse 16, Ananias says, and now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins. Calling on his name. That the cleansing of sin, it wasn't enough for him to just have faith. He needed to also rise and get baptized to wash away his sins. That's the first promise. Second promise, spiritual rebirth. This is very clearly taught in John 3 about being born again or being born anew. The Greek can be read either way. Jesus tells Nicodemus that only those who are born again will be saved and that unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That's not a metaphor for Spirit in the Spirit. That actually means you need the Holy Spirit and water. And that is how all of the early Christians understood what is being said in John 3, that this is about spiritual rebirth through water baptism. Third promise, the gift of the Holy Spirit. Peter gets up and preaches to the crowds on Pentecost. They are cut to the heart. They ask what they should do. And Peter says, repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the forgiveness of your sins. We already saw the forgiveness of sins through water. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. So he tells us both number one and number three, Baptism gets rid of your sin. And in baptism, you receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. It's right there. And then fourth and finally there's this promise of entrance into the people of God. But what's the people of God in the new covenant? It's the church. And so let's stay there in Acts 2, because those who receive Peter's word were baptized. And verse 41 says, and there were added that day about 3,000 souls. Added to what? Added to the church. So baptism is the doorway to the church. Through baptism, you become a child of God. You become A member of the body of Christ, you, your sins are washed away, you are given the Holy Spirit, you are born again, and so much more. And the early Christians are remarkably clear about this. I mention this frequently, but it's worth really driving home Everett Ferguson in his book Baptism in the Early Church. Ferguson is not a Catholic. He's, I believe, church of Christ. His book Baptism in the Early Church looks at the first five centuries of history, theology, and liturgy to find out what it was the early Christians believed about baptism. And he spends hundreds of pages going through all of the research. On page 854, he starts to form some conclusions. And one of the conclusions is, although in developing the doctrine of baptism, different authors had their particular favorite descriptions, there is a remarkable agreement on the benefits received in baptism. And he points out that this reflects the New Testament as well. And two fundamental blessings often repeated are, number one, the person baptized received forgiveness of sins, and number two, they received the gift of the Holy Spirit. And then he goes on to talk about how it was also understood as a sharing in the death and resurrection of Christ, just as Romans 6 seems to say, and rebirth from above, as John 3 seems to say. So scripture and hundreds of years of early Christians interpreting scripture all point in the same direction that baptism isn't just this nice thing we do to show how much we believe in God. Baptism is this transformative spiritual event that God does for us. Baptism is something we receive more than something that we do. We get baptized, we receive baptism, and we allow ourselves to be transformed in a way that we cannot possibly do ourselves.

[A]

All right, I'm glad I finally found the question, Karen and Peoria, that kept moving around on me, but I'm glad we got to it. Thank you very much for that beautiful question. As a matter of fact, Joe Eschmeyer, our guest, I've got time for another question before I have to take a break. So I'm going to Dickinson, North Dakota, where Colton was listening on Real Presence Radio. I just got back from South Dakota, Joe, last week. I got to go to South Dakota.

[B]

How was it?

[A]

You want to ask? I don't know yet.

[B]

Oh, I see. I see.

[A]

See what I'm saying?

[B]

This is like when I used to leave answering machine messages, you know, the outgoing message. I used to mess around with that like, I'm not here right now. I actually am here, but I'm not going to be here by the time you hear this. You know, that's sort of. People don't find that funny at all. I just want you.

[A]

No.

[B]

What I find it funny, but it seems you're doing okay. I'm glad you find here. Yeah.

[A]

Because we're pre recording this and I have not gone to South Dakota yet, but by the time it plays, I will have gone to South Dakota. So I just got back from South Dakota, but I don't know how it was. Colton is in North Dakota though, so none of this is relevant. I'm a seminarian and I teach high school. How do we reconcile wisdom being referenced as feminine and Jesus being called the wisdom of God?

[B]

Yes. When we're looking at Old Testament references, particularly with wisdom, sometimes these are talking about wisdom, like the divine Logos, which is Jesus Christ. But frequently we mean simply the attribute of wisdom. And this can be. This is almost called created wisdom as well. And as a personification of wisdom, this is not meant to be taken literally there. It's often depicted in the feminine because both the Hebrew and the Greek words for wisdom are feminine words. And so, you know, because of the gender, we say she for for wisdom, but we don't literally mean that there is this, you know, divine female wisdom figure that becomes the male Christ. This is just a figure of speech around, like, the goodness of wisdom in some of the wisdom literature.

[A]

Now I can take a break. We'll be right back with more leftover questions for Joe Heschmeyer on Catholic Answers Live. Catholic Answers live in Morse code. The sequence SOS is a distress call. It's been said that it stands for Save our souls. Well, right now our world is in big trouble and we're putting out an SOS call for help. Will you answer that call? St. Paul Street Evangelization, a Catholic nonprofit, has hundreds of teams who share the good news with souls who don't know Jesus. Catholic Answers is supported in part by St. Paul Street Evangelization. Visit streetevangelization.com to get involved. Proclaiming the faith, changing lives. The year was 1981. The FCC licensed to operate a satellite earth station. The first ever given to an order of nuns was granted to Our lady of the Angels Monastery. Mother Angelica flips the switch and EWTN begins transmitting from Irondale, Alabama. To learn more about Mother Angelica's life and the history of EWTN, visit ewtn.com motherangelica. Welcome back to Catholic Answers Live. The reason I'm laughing every time I come back is that Jeff is telling me in my ear that it's okay to start talking. And the way he's saying it is thumbs up. And I don't know why I find that funny. He Just says thumbs up into my ears.

[B]

No one else does it. So you can always tell when Jeff's on, you know, because nobody else gives you that kind of affirmation right before you start talking.

[A]

It cracks me up for some reason. I don't know why. But then I sound foolish. Cause I'm laughing while I come back. But I've never let sounding foolish stop me before. On we go. So are we going to Council Bluff, Iowa? Should we go to Council Bluff, Iowa? Where Brittany was listening on Spirit Catholic Radio. And she wanted to know this. What's the difference between plenary and partial indulgences?

[B]

Plenary is complete. Partial is partial. Come on, Brittany, that was in the. I'm just kidding. I assume more than that.

[A]

Joe got mean after Thanksgiving. He got a little tatty there on that one.

[B]

Come settle down, Hesh Meyer, Iowans, man. No, I'm kidding, Brittany. No. So the. The idea is. I don't know how much to explain about the theology of indulgences in general, but there is this idea that you can help others be purified. One of the passages that is pointed to in the catechisms, discussion of purgatory, which I think is actually super helpful, is Job, chapter one, verse five. This isn't about those who have died. It's about those who are alive. But as Job would when his children were out, they would have parties and things. He would send and sanctify them and rise early in the morning and offer burnt offerings according to the number of them all. For Job said, it may be that my sons have sinned and cursed God in their hearts. And so Job recognized that by his prayers he could help purify unintentional offenses and things that others had done to help the purification of others. And this is a good spiritual principle we see in 1 John 5:16. If anyone sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life. For those whose sin is not mortal, there is sin which is mortal. I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin. But there is sin which is not mortal. So we can't purify other people of mortal sin. If someone dies with deadly or mortal sin, they've just rejected God completely and they're going to hell. And your prayers for them after they've died aren't going to do any good. But if someone has what we call venial sin, non mortal sin, sin which is not mortal, that the Bible talks about very clearly right here, we can pray for that. For it to be purified. So when we talk about the good we can do for others that, you know, this is one of our duties as Christians is to help purify one another of sin. But this also includes those who have died. That one of the examples of this in Maccabees is when we. We see some of the faithful who have died, but then they die fighting. And this is second Maccabees 12. They die fighting for Israel, but they have these sacrilegious, like, superstitious amulets that are dedicated to the idols of Jamnia. So on the one hand, they're fighting against paganism, on the other hand, they've internally compromised with paganism in some way. And so this same principle of trying to purify others of their sins, if they are not mortal sin, they do even for those who've died, because they believe, as they should believe, that nothing impure will stand in the presence of God. And so if loved ones we have, if fellow Christians, fellow believers, have died with impurity, we should pray that that impurity is taken away, that it is purified. And that purification process is called purgatory. So in Second Maccabees, we read that Judas Maccabeus uses the death of his compatriots as. As an example to tell them to keep themselves free, that he then takes up a sin offering and sends it to Jerusalem. And we're told that in doing this, he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who'd fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. And then we're told, therefore he made atonement for the dead. They might be delivered from their sin. Now, I understand Second Maccabees is not in, you know, Protestant Bibles, but it is in Catholic and Orthodox Bibles. And it was treated as scripture by the early Christians. And it certainly reflects the theology and spiritual practice of ancient Judaism. Even today, if you're in a pious Jewish household and someone dies, they will sit shiva. They will offer a mourner's prayer. They will offer the mourner's kadish for, you know, 11 months for those who have died, where they'll pray for their soul and its purification, because there is some recognition, rightly, that you need to be pure to stand in the presence of God. So with these Some of these acts of trying to purify the sins of others are really big acts, and some are small acts. And so some things we think help somewhat, and some things we think help completely. And the terms we have for those are partial indulgences and plenary indulgences.

[A]

Brittany, thank you. I hope that that was helpful to you on I go try to get some more on before we have to go. And Terry was in North Carolina. I was trying to slip that by you because I didn't want to hurt your feelings, but I don't know, Joe. I don't know. You stumped me. Yes, I said we're trying to get some moron some more on some.

[B]

Sorry, I shouldn't have thrown you like that. It was cruel of me to have done this to you, especially when I'm.

[A]

So full of leftovers. Terry in North Carolina was listening on the Alexa and he said, what's. Or he or she? I guess Terry could go either way. What's the Catholic response to the Protestant claim that we don't need priests because Jesus is our only priest?

[B]

I think there's a few ways you can approach this Biblically. One is to point out that obviously this is an incomplete understanding because you can't say both, we don't need priests because Jesus is our only priest. And as First Peter, chapter two says, you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people. Because you know, you have very clearly this reference to being a whole, like all of us share in some way in the priesthood of Christ. So then you'll have people simultaneously saying, nobody's a priest and everybody's a priest as arguments against the priesthood. And it's like, well, at least stop and recognize that. It doesn't seem very clear that you have an idea of priesthood in the Christian understanding, because you're making two opposite arguments without even trying to harmonize them. But the other thing to notice is that in those words that Peter gives us, a lot of people don't realize this. He's quoting Exodus 19, verse 6, where God tells Israel, you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. Does that mean Israel didn't have Levitical priests? It did not mean that. It meant that there was one sense in which the whole people could make offerings to God, and there were still some offerings that only the priests could make, because a priest is one who makes offerings, make sacrifices. So in one sense, all of us can make offerings. Revelation 12. Excuse me, Romans 12. We make offerings in our bodies. This is our spiritual sacrifice. This is our spiritual worship. But there's another kind of thing that only some of us can offer. Now, how do we know that from the Old Testament prophecies about the New Testament? The last chapter of Isaiah, Isaiah 66, talks about how the days to come, God's going to make a new covenant with his people, gather together the Gentiles, and they're going to offer pure offering. And he says in verse 21, and some of them also I will take for priests and for Levites. So in response to the people who say it's nobody and it's everybody, the Bible says it's some, that there's one sense of baptismal incorporation into the priesthood of Christ. All of us share in that. There is one sense in which Christ is the only high priest. In the full sense, that's also true. But there's also this sense in which some of us are called to be priests and Levites in a way that not all of us are called to. That's explicitly there in Scripture. And this passage of priests and Levites is taken up by the early Christians as a reference to the New Testament priests and deacons, that some people are called to be clergy and some aren't. Well, what then is the unique offering that is made in the new covenant that only the priests can make? Because again, if there's a unique priesthood, there's a unique sacrifice. According to St. Paul, it's the Eucharist. St. Paul talks about how it is that we can be incorporated into the body and blood of Christ and we can participate in his words, in the body and blood of Christ. This is first Corinthians 10, verse 16. And then he goes to explain how that can be. And the way he explains is that there are sacrifices where you share in the sacrifice as an ordinary person, as a lay person, by eating the sacrifice. So the Passover lamb, for instance, when Passover rolled around, you didn't kill the lamb, the priest did. You may not have even owned the lamb. Maybe your dad did, or your husband. You shared in the sacrifice by eating the lamb. And so he says, consider the practice of Israel. Are not those who eat the sacrifices partners in the altar? Now, explicitly, Paul is comparing this to the Eucharist. He's saying, if you want to understand how we commune with Christ in the Eucharist, you need to know that the Jewish understanding of sacrifice is that you become a partner in the altar by eating the sacrifice that the priest makes. And then he suggests that we can also understand by looking to paganism because he says, he talks about food sacrifice to, to idols. And he said that what pagan sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. And so he says, you cannot drink of the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and, and the table of demons. Well, the table there isn't just a table, as we saw from the Jewish example, it's an altar. So this means the table of the Lord is an altar. The Eucharist is a sacrifice. And so we have a specific sacrifice that only the priest offers. At the Last Supper, Jesus doesn't tell the crowds do this in remembrance of me. He tells the 12, they make the sacrifice, we become partakers of it. We become partners in the altar by eating the sacrificial offering of the body and blood of Christ. That's what First Corinthians 10 is saying, that fulfills Isaiah 66. And that explains how we can say both that we are a whole nation of priests and that there is this special priesthood.

[A]

Terry, thanks very much. There's more time, more to get to Mike in Pennsylvania. I'm avoiding saying the word more on Mike in Pennsylvania, watching on YouTube wanted to know this. I kind of want to know this too. Mike, how were anti popes and valid popes removed from office, historically speaking?

[B]

Okay, it depends a little bit. When we're talking in history, it's a little bit of a complicated story because you have a period called the Papal Schism where there's the real Pope in Rome and then you have some election deniers who say he doesn't count and so they try to elect their own pope in France and, and then you have the Council of Pisa, so called, where a group of cardinals get together, declare themselves an ecumenical council and try to say both the real Pope and the fake pope are deposed. And this doesn't work. Councils don't actually have the power to do that. But because they declared both of the popes, the real one and the fake one, deposed, they then try to elect another guy. So now in trying to solve a two pope problem, you've created a three pope problem. Now you have the real Pope in Rome, you've got the fake pope in France, and you have another fake pope in Pisa. And so then you have after this the Council of Constance. And it's a really complicated story here because constant starts is just another attempt by cardinals on their own actually under the Antipope of Pisa, trying to get together to solve it. And by itself it wouldn't be valid. But Pope Gregory xii, realizing the problem the Church is in, he's the real pope. He offers his resignation and convenes the Council of Constance as an actual ecumenical council. And so it becomes an ecumenical council. It accepts the pope's resignation and it declares deposed the two fake popes. So an ecumenical council can depose a fake, like an anti pope. It can't oppose the actual pope like that. That's. This is a heresy called conciliarism of believing that a council is above the pope and can, you know, a group of cardinals could just get together and, you know, overthrow a pope and, you know, basically like an impeachment. And we don't have a structure like that. There isn't that sort of thing. And if there was, you can imagine how often the papacy would become, you know, the object of sabotage and impeachment. And, you know, you'd have harassment from cardinals saying, you got to do what we want, or else we're going to, you know, declare you deposed. And it would really undermine the authority of the papacy. If that was a real thing, that could happen. But thanks be to God, it's not. So the. The church can declare at a valid ecumenical council that a certain person wasn't a true pope, but that's not going to be a situation where the. The reigning pope is declared not a pope. If there was some papal pretender, someone who wasn't in their lifetime, the real pope, a situation like in the papal schism, then a council can say, yeah, the guy in Pisa, the guy in Avignon, those aren't the real guys. The Roman Pope is the true pope.

[A]

We haven't had that problem for a while, though. Yeah, thanks. Thanks to God for that. But I don't want to wish ill upon us. Let's just pray that that continues for a while. Let's have the. Let's have just this guy and let's have him for a while and some nice peace and see how that goes. I really like peace in the church. Joe Heschmeyer, I really enjoyed the two hours with you. Thanks very much for being here with us.

[B]

It was my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

[A]

All right, go enjoy some football. We'll see you next time. God willing.

[B]

Right here.

[A]

Catholic Answers Live.