Loading summary

Transcript61 lines

[00:01]
A
Hi, I'm James Prothero, associate professor at the Augustine Institute Graduate School of Theology. We hope you've enjoyed listening to and learning from our professors on this and all our podcasts. The Augustine Institute Graduate School exists to make Christ and his church better known and loved through the exercise of academic study. With St. Augustine as our guide, we focus on the narrative of scripture and the evangelization of the culture. Faculty and students alike immerse themselves in the rich sources of the Catholic faith, drawing upon sacred Scripture, the catechism of the Catholic Church, and the writings of the fathers and doctors of the church. We have 550 students and over a thousand alumni serving the church in parishes, dioceses, schools, the academy apostolates, the domestic church, and even the secular world. With master's degrees in theology, past Pastoral Theology, Catholic education, and Biblical Studies. Our programs are for anyone looking to go deeper in their faith. Are you interested in studying theology with the professors of this podcast? Earn your degree online or on campus in St. Louis, Missouri. Apply now for the coming term of study. Learn more at augustine. Edu.
[01:16]
B
You're listening to a podcast on Catholic Saints. This podcast is produced by the Augustine Institute, an apostolate helping Catholics understand, live and share their faith.
[01:38]
C
Hi. Welcome to Catholic Saints. My name is Mary McGeehan, and this is Dr. Carl Vennerstrom, professor here at the August Institute. What do you teach here, Dr. Fendersham?
[01:48]
D
Yeah, good question. I teach church history and I'll be teaching Greek this fall.
[01:54]
C
Nice.
[01:54]
D
But, yeah, mostly the early church, but sort of dipping into the medievals as well.
[01:58]
C
All right, those are fun topics.
[02:00]
D
They are. I like them a lot. I'm biased, but for good reason.
[02:05]
C
Today we're going to talk about St. Dominic. And this series on Catholic saints is an opportunity for us to learn about the life of the saint. Where they grew up and what formed them. What's their legacy to the church today? Just to look at them as role models and sources of inspiration on our own path and journey to Christ. So we're going to do St. Dominic. His feast day is August 8th, and he is the patron of astronomers, Dominican Republic and falsely accused people, and I'm sure amongst many other patrons. So can you give us a biographical sketch? Start with the beginning of what we need to know about St. Dominic. He seems like a giant saint, you know, in the tradition of the church. So where was he born? Or what? What do we need to know about him in his early life?
[03:01]
D
Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, he definitely does loom large through his. His order that he founded the Dominicans but also in his sort of personality. So, yeah, he was born in Spain. He was the child of a noble family that was. That was relatively wealthy. His family itself contains or includes his. His mother, who is blessed, as well as his brother, who is a blessed.
[03:33]
C
Oh, I didn't know that.
[03:34]
D
Yeah, his brother, who also joined his order, and then he had another brother who was a priest, who's a canon regular, which is not a parish priest, but anyways. Sort of complicated, but yeah. And then a sister, I think, who had two children who ended up being blessed too. So he's sort of in this.
[03:57]
C
That's a holy family.
[03:58]
D
Yeah, it's a sort of garden of saints for his family. So a good start. Definitely. He's one of these saints for whom there's a. A childhood that contains stories of piety. So he always refused to sleep in a bed, so he always slept on the floor, these kinds of things. But he went for a kind of medieval education, which included the quadrivium. So he studied math and music and these different things.
[04:36]
C
Roughly, like what time period?
[04:38]
D
Yeah, yeah. So he is like late 12th, early early 13th century. So born in 1170 and then he dies in 1221, the age of 51. Okay, yeah. So. And as a young student, there's a really beautiful story which encapsulates an important feature of his character and his order's character, which is the intellectual life and then poverty. So you. He's a student studying philosophy, and he has these texts which are very expensive because, I mean, they're written on sheets of leather and they have to be handwritten, so they're expensive. And he has his own annotations in them and this kind of thing. So they're very treasured. There's a plague, and so he sells all of these in order to feed the poor. So. So it's these, like, two things, like this life of the mind, but which he's willing to sacrifice, at least in its material form, to serve and help the poor. So that's a bit about his early life. There are other really important episodes. I mean, his life is full of important episodes. But at one point in time, he joins his bishop on this trip, and on that trip through the country, they. They run into a lot of superstition, they run into a lot of heresy. So the Albigensians, you could think of them as like Manichees, if you know about Manichaeism, it's this sort of like, dualist heresy. Or the Cathars, this idea. There's like an evil God who created the world, and there's like this good God. And so there's like a hatred of nature and creation, or the belief at least, that it's evil. Okay, so there's a lot of that. And at the same time as like, that's happening, there's. This is a kind of historical context. In the cities, there's a great deal of prosperity, and the great universities are starting up, like the University of Paris. So there's this thriving intellectual life through the Arabs. There's this reintroduction of Aristotle, the study of philosophy. So blossoming intellectual life in the cities. But there's also a great deal of clericalism. So a lot of the priests are very unconvincing in their message because their personal lives are hypocritical, so. Hypocritical. Yeah, that's right. And then to fight those heresies, they have to sort of combat the fact that while the. At least many of the priests were living sumptuous lives with a lot of wealth, the heretics, the Albigensians, lived lives of poverty and renunciation. So the people who'd been forgotten, they at least found the message of these heretics a lot more convincing than. Than the message of the Catholic Church, in part just because of the way of life of the clergy. So they encounter all of this, and there's sort of calls from the pope to renew preaching. And so the bishop that Dominic was accompanying, he is very enthusiastic about this. And so he joins with the Cistercians, which is this monastic order. And typically, this is another sort of historical thing that's kind of difficult to understand. Typically, when you think of monks in this period, we want to think not about monks who are sort of like living in a city with an apostolate or something, but who are living generally a more sort of remote life that's, like, really focused on prayer and not so focused on service or preaching. And. But they have this sort of poverty aspect. At least the good monks do. But. And they're called upon to preach, even though that's not their sort of, like, natural function. And so eventually, this is what. This is the role that's filled, particularly by Dominic's order, which is op, the order of preachers. Okay? So this is one of their great functions, is to live according to a sort of monastic rhythm of life, with a life in community, a life of poverty and a life of prayer, but then also to be dedicated to preaching and evangelization. So his order, we'll get to this a little bit, but they're Traveling all over the place and preaching to these people and fighting the heresies and then evangelizing people who need to be be evangelized. So yeah, it's this very fascinating period in the church's history.
[09:52]
C
There are a lot of just tensions as you're mentioning, high intellectualism, but then also extreme poverty at war and at play. And it just, it always interests me how the context of what heresies or what crises are happening in that time period, the Lord, you know, send saints for particular antidotes and almost medicine for that time of sickness that people are going through. Spiritual and, you know, literal, but also just fascinating that in that, you know, commitment to poverty, they also have this more availability to be filled for preaching. So in that emptying and commitment to poverty, it makes sense that there's just more space for God to fill so we can give more of God in that self emptying stuff.
[10:42]
D
Yeah, that's right. And One aspect of St. Dominic's character was just to be able to move quickly between places, as quickly as you could move in this period because you're walking everywhere. Right. But still he did travel all over the place. And part of that is that he didn't have these things to carry around. He didn't have all this luggage or. Yeah, he didn't have actual luggage. Yeah, when he died, he died in a habit that he borrowed from someone else because he didn't have his own. So. Yeah, in exactly the way you're saying. Part of his analysis of the culture, if you will, is that it was going to be much more difficult to be a successful evangelist if you're tied down to a bunch of stuff and
[11:36]
C
like you're saying an authentic witness, if the people were surrounded by a lot of hypocrisy, you gotta be very authentic.
[11:43]
D
That's right. Yeah. People notice, like if you care less about them than you care about your stuff. This is not something that is an elusive fact.
[11:53]
C
Right, yes, very good. So let's see, what are there particular topics that Dominicans and Saint Dominic in particular is known to preach on, you said? I think the bishop really mentored him to preach the Gospel. Are there other particular, I don't know, teachings? And why was that a priority for St. Dominic?
[12:18]
D
Yeah, so we have much less in terms of what St. Dominic actually said than we would with his later followers. But you could sort of maybe fill in the gaps.
[12:33]
C
Can you also mention he's so interested.
[12:35]
D
Yeah, so his most important follower, at least in the Dominican order, Thomas Aquinas. Okay, of course, yeah. So we can presume without a doubt that St. Dominic had tremendous intellect and was able to discourse about like any sort of theological topic. And so the. Since he was preaching against these sort of Gnostic or Manichean type heresies, we can sort of presume that he probably preached a lot about creation and the goodness of the created order. Another evidence of his theological acumen would be that he ended up in Rome. And the Pope, rather than letting him leave Rome, sort of forced him to stay as his has his personal theological advisor. And so he was, at least in a theological sense, sort of like the most trusted person for the Pope at this time. And in fact, since St. Dominic there's continuously been a Dominican who's sort of like the theologian in residence to advise the Pope. So there's that, but then also, I mean especially in preaching the Gospel, preaching poverty and preaching renunciation. So just to come back to the sort of twofold aspect of the intellectual life in poverty, part of the heritage of that is that St. Dominic made sure there were friars in Paris from the beginning to be near the great schools in Paris. And so this was not a life of poverty that was opposed any way to the intellectual life. In fact, just as poverty made it possible for them to be more effective preachers, both to just be able to like get places and not be attached to stuff, but also be an effective with an effective witness, they saw that poverty also had the same kind of effect on the intellectual life. If you free yourself from material attachments, you actually have a sort of clearer mind and calmer spirit to address sometimes like very complex speculative questions and to make interventions in the sort of intellectual life of society. So Paris would be sort of like the intellectual center of the world at this point in time. And so he wanted his friars to be sort of right in the middle of that. And then once we get again to Thomas Aquinas, he ends up being a sort of professor, if you will, at the University of Paris. So there ends up being this long heritage of Dominicans and universities for which
[15:33]
C
they're still known for teaching and intellectual life. And the Dominican sisters run so many Catholic schools as teachers still today, which is incredible.
[15:44]
D
Yeah. And the first sort of Dominican sisters were at least supposed to be converted heretics, like converted Alban Jensians that he, he formed into a monastery of sisters.
[15:58]
C
Interesting. I was also pondering how a lot of religious orders were formed in this time period. I was curious your thoughts on that, like why in this particular time was the church so fertile in new religious orders? And also if there's any connection with Dominic and St. Francis.
[16:18]
D
Yeah, yeah. So we were talking about this a bit before. This was a period of. I mean, there were a lot of problems with society that was sort of outlined and problems within the church too. And the sort of. The scope of the solution matched the scope of the problem. So there's that. So, yeah, we have. I mean, the Cistercians are. Are very rapidly expanding at this time. This is. This sort of. That comes out of the Benedictine tradition. At the same time, we have also St. Dominic and St. Francis, like you said. So these two great giants. Pillars. Giants, yeah. And there are as. As kind of evidence of their scope and impact. There are two gigantic statues of St. Dominic and St. Francis in St. Peter's in Rome, flanking St. Peter. Yeah. So both mendicant religious orders. So like both. Both religious orders that focused heavily on poverty, the Franciscans and the Dominicans, St. Francis and St. Dominic are supposed to have met at the Lateran Council. But their religious orders, although having, like, a much different style in a sense and sort of a different aspect now, I would say in general, probably the Franciscans are more sort of like overtly focused on poverty, possibly, whereas the Dominicans are maybe like, more overtly focused on the intellectual life. But that's just sort of like a period in their history, I think. I don't think it's indicative necessarily of, like, the larger trend because there are a lot of Franciscan universities and a lot of famous Franciscan theologians, this kind of thing. But despite their, I don't know, the sort of difference in style, there is this kind of like, mutual dependence on one another. So each religious order traditionally called the founder of the other religious order, like the Holy Father. Maybe I'm getting that wrong. But anyways, they would have. The Dominicans would have a Franciscan come and preach on St. Dominic's feast day, and the Franciscans would have a Dominican come preach on the feast day of St. Francis. Yeah. And you have, like, humility.
[18:53]
A
Yeah.
[18:54]
D
And I think in Dante's Paradiso, you also have, I think, Thomas aquinas talking about St. Francis and St. Bonaventure or Franciscan talking about St. Dominic. So, yeah, there's this sort of like inter.
[19:07]
C
Brotherhood, in a sense.
[19:09]
D
Yeah, true kind of brotherhood. Yeah, that's right.
[19:12]
C
Fascinating. That's good. A good healthy rivalry and balancing each other out, I guess.
[19:16]
D
That's right. Yeah. I mean, it's sort of the kind of rivalry we would long for now in the church.
[19:22]
C
That is very true. Fascinating. Well, is there other. Any other interesting facts about St. Dominic or his life or. I feel like the word dog. Is there some tradition? What is that connection?
[19:38]
D
Yeah, his mother is supposed to have had a vision before he was born of a dog carrying a torch throughout the world. So I think there's an etymology of Dominic that it's Domino canis, like the dog of the Lord.
[19:55]
B
Okay.
[19:56]
D
So carrying this flame and lighting everything on fire.
[20:00]
C
Flame of the Gospel.
[20:01]
D
That's right. Exactly. Yeah. So that's. Yeah. So you often see like, a dog in, like, stained glass for the Dominicans.
[20:11]
C
Okay, that makes sense.
[20:13]
D
Yeah.
[20:13]
C
Very cool.
[20:14]
D
Yeah. A humble but sort of effective evangelist.
[20:20]
C
Yes. And lovable, I guess.
[20:22]
D
Yeah, and lovable. That's right.
[20:25]
C
The two scripture verses that were coming to mind that I was looking for, the Galatians 2, 10. I don't know if it's Paul or the apostles, but they're directing to remember the poor and just knowing their love for Scripture and taking to heart remember the poor, even in their intellectual gift, almost like intellectual. Yeah, Richness. They have that union in remembering the poor and the poverty of the people around them.
[20:53]
D
Yeah, that's good. Yeah.
[20:55]
C
And Then 1st Peter 4:11, that mentions, whoever preaches, let it be with the words of God, and whoever serves, let it be with the strength of God as well. Just comes to mind as you're explaining more about, like, their charism and ethos.
[21:09]
D
Yeah, beautiful. Yeah. And then just maybe the last sort of reflection on his life. I think it's difficult sometimes when you read these lives of the saints and it's like, oh, he had this, like, very clear mission and call, and then he did it. It was awesome. But in, like, point of fact, like, his life was much more complicated. Right. I mean, he was like a canon. So like, more like a parish priest. Not exactly. For like, eight years. And, like, things took time to develop. But I think one thing you can sort of take away with this idea of poverty and preaching, that once his mission was very clear to him, he had a heart set on fire to accomplish it. And that meant he was perfectly willing to let everything, even like, good stuff, kind of fall by the wayside in order to accomplish it. So this is helpful. I think that these things sort of take time to develop. And most people aren't going to be St. Dominic anyways, but you're going to be called to maybe humble and small things. But once you know that, you need to do that thing, to focus on that and then to have a detachment from everything that would prevent you from accomplishing that mission. I think this is a Worthwhile thing to meditate on.
[22:30]
C
No, That's a wonderful reminder. And often, like, one. Yes. Leads to another. Yes. And refined. Yes. That the Lord takes you upon. You're not always exactly sure, even in the messiness of it, where it's going, but the words precisely. Yeah.
[22:43]
D
And this is something. This is something. His followers. So he sent out his first 16 friars sort of all over Europe, in a sense, and they were all like, very upset at him. Like, we're not ready to go. We don't have enough training. We're not. We're not good preachers. All this stuff. And he's like, nope, you're going. And so sometimes it's made clear to us, even though we'd rather it not be the case.
[23:07]
C
Yes, yes. I love that. Okay. And you also were just mentioning supposedly Saint Dominic could have been a redhead.
[23:16]
D
Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I called my friend in the Dominican order this morning and said, what should I tell people about St. Dominic? And he said, I have to go to class in two minutes. But he had red hair, so I didn't double check that. This is part of the oral tradition.
[23:32]
C
So if nothing else, it's the flame of fire.
[23:36]
D
That's right. Yeah.
[23:36]
C
Mother prophetically saw her son into the world. So that's wonderful.
[23:41]
D
Beautiful.
[23:42]
C
Yes. Great. Well, thank you for all of that about the life of St. Dominic. Lots to ponder on in that beautiful union of poverty and intellectual.
[23:52]
B
Thank you for being a dedicated listener to the Catholic Saints podcast. Your support truly uplifts us. For those seeking additional thought provoking content, go to formed.org It's a platform brimming with resources, including insightful videos that align seamlessly with our podcast themes. If you're finding value in our podcast, please consider taking a moment to leave us a review. Your feedback serves as a cornerstone for our growth and outreach.
[24:25]
A
Reach.

Summary5 min read

Catholic Saints Podcast — St. Dominic

Podcast by the Augustine Institute
Episode Date: August 8, 2026
Host: Mary McGeehan
Guest: Dr. Carl Vennerstrom, Professor of Church History, Augustine Institute

Overview of the Episode

This episode explores the life, legacy, and enduring impact of St. Dominic, founder of the Order of Preachers (Dominicans) and a central figure in the renewal of the medieval Church. Through engaging dialogue, Dr. Carl Vennerstrom and Mary McGeehan provide an insightful look at Dominic’s early life, spiritual formation, mission against heresy, dedication to poverty and intellectual life, and the unique role of the Dominicans in the Church’s history.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Life and Family Background (03:00–04:35)

St. Dominic was born in 1170 in Spain to a noble, wealthy family noted for their piety and sanctity. Several family members, including his mother and brother, are recognized as “blessed” in the Church.
- “It’s a sort of garden of saints for his family.” (Dr. Vennerstrom, 03:58)
As a youth, Dominic practiced asceticism (e.g., sleeping on the floor), received a robust medieval education, and demonstrated both intellectual curiosity and charity.
A notable story: As a student, Dominic sold his prized annotated books during a famine to feed the poor.
- “He has these texts...very treasured. There’s a plague, and so he sells all of these in order to feed the poor.” (Dr. Vennerstrom, 04:17)

2. Historical Context and Response to Heresy (04:35–09:52)

Dominic’s ministry unfolded during a time of social, intellectual, and spiritual upheaval: rising universities, widespread prosperity, clerical hypocrisy, and heresies like the Albigensians (Cathars), who believed in a dualist universe.
- “They run into a lot of superstition, they run into a lot of heresy. So the Albigensians… this dualist heresy… a hatred of nature and creation…” (Dr. Vennerstrom, 04:51)
Clerical opulence undermined the Church’s moral credibility, especially compared to ascetic heretics.
Dominic’s encounter with these realities inspired him to combine monastic poverty and the intellectual life with itinerant preaching—leading to the foundation of the Dominican Order (Order of Preachers, OP).

3. Charism: Synthesis of Poverty & Intellectual Life (09:52–15:44)

Dominic insisted on radical poverty and detachment, which allowed Dominicans to be mobile and authentic witnesses.
- “When he died, he died in a habit that he borrowed from someone else because he didn’t have his own.” (Dr. Vennerstrom, 10:42)
Poverty, far from being a contradiction to study, was believed to purify the mind for theological contemplation.
- “They saw that poverty also had the same kind of effect on the intellectual life. If you free yourself from material attachments, you actually have a sort of clearer mind and calmer spirit to address complex speculative questions.” (Dr. Vennerstrom, 14:21)
Dominic sent friars straight to the intellectual heart of Europe (Paris), forging a tradition of scholarly excellence that continues today.

4. Dominic’s Preaching & Formation of the Order (12:17–15:44)

While little survives of Dominic’s actual preaching, he set the standard for theological rigor and Gospel-centered witness.
His personal example and intellectual reputation led to ongoing ties: since Dominic, a Dominican has always advised the Pope on theology.
The Order’s mission was equally rooted in serving the poor and refuting error—uniting head and heart.

5. Rise of New Religious Orders & Partnership with Franciscans (15:57–19:16)

The early 13th century was marked by a blossoming of new religious orders responding to Church and societal crises—Dominicans, Franciscans, Cistercians.
- “The scope of the solution matched the scope of the problem.” (Dr. Vennerstrom, 16:23)
Dominic and Francis are considered twin pillars of this renewal; they are depicted flanking St. Peter in St. Peter’s Basilica.
Though their emphases varied (Dominicans—intellectual; Franciscans—poverty), their collaboration and spiritual kinship is a model for the Church:
- “There’s this sort of inter-brotherhood, in a sense...A good healthy rivalry and balancing each other out, I guess.” (Mary McGeehan & Dr. Vennerstrom, 19:08–19:16)

6. Notable Stories, Symbols, and Traditions (19:16–20:21)

Dominic’s mother reportedly dreamed of a dog carrying a torch—interpreted as “dog of the Lord” [Domini canis] lighting the world with Gospel fire.
- “His mother is supposed to have had a vision before he was born of a dog carrying a torch throughout the world. So… Domino canis, like the dog of the Lord.” (Dr. Vennerstrom, 19:37)
Dogs and flames are frequently found in Dominican art.
Fascinating oral traditions include the claim that Dominic was a redhead—“the flame of fire.”

7. Spiritual Lessons & Legacy (20:24–22:43)

Central scriptural themes for Dominic’s life: Galatians 2:10 (“remember the poor”) and 1 Peter 4:11 (preaching and serving with God’s strength).
Dominic’s life was marked by gradual unfolding—an encouragement to listeners that clarity of mission emerges over time:
- “Things took time to develop…once his mission was very clear to him, he had a heart set on fire to accomplish it. And that meant he was perfectly willing to let everything, even like good stuff, fall by the wayside.” (Dr. Vennerstrom, 21:17)
Dominic challenged his friars to trust God and go on mission, even when they felt unprepared.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On intellectual life & poverty:
“He has these texts…very treasured. There’s a plague, and so he sells all of these in order to feed the poor.” (Dr. Vennerstrom, 04:17)
On the roots of effective preaching:
“People notice, like if you care less about them than you care about your stuff.” (Dr. Vennerstrom, 11:42)
On St. Dominic's method:
“…to live according to a sort of monastic rhythm of life, with a life in community, a life of poverty and a life of prayer, but then also to be dedicated to preaching and evangelization.” (Dr. Vennerstrom, 07:00)
On Dominicans & Franciscans:
“There’s this sort of inter-brotherhood, in a sense… A good healthy rivalry and balancing each other out, I guess.” (Mary McGeehan & Dr. Vennerstrom, 19:08–19:16)

Important Timestamps

[03:00–04:35]: St. Dominic’s family, piety, and intellectual formation
[04:35–09:52]: Response to Albigensian heresy; the birth of Dominican charism
[09:52–11:42]: Mendicant mobility, poverty as spiritual witness
[12:17–15:44]: Order’s intellectual vocation, link to Thomas Aquinas
[15:57–19:16]: Proliferation of religious orders and dynamic with Franciscans
[19:16–20:21]: Dog-with-torch legend and symbolic aspects
[20:24–22:43]: Life lessons, scriptural grounding, mission clarity, and encouragement
[23:15]: Fun claim: “Dominic could have been a redhead.”

Conclusion

This episode presents St. Dominic as a saint uniquely attuned to his times, embodying both radical poverty and deep learning. His legacy is seen not only in the evangelistic and academic mission of the Dominicans but also in the everyday call to embrace God’s plan with detachment and holy zeal.

Whether through memorable symbolism, holy rivalry, or the intertwining of intellect and charity, Dominic continues to inspire those seeking to unite love of God, poverty of spirit, and the relentless pursuit of truth.

Loading summary

Transcript61 lines

[00:01]
A
Hi, I'm James Prothero, associate professor at the Augustine Institute Graduate School of Theology. We hope you've enjoyed listening to and learning from our professors on this and all our podcasts. The Augustine Institute Graduate School exists to make Christ and his church better known and loved through the exercise of academic study. With St. Augustine as our guide, we focus on the narrative of scripture and the evangelization of the culture. Faculty and students alike immerse themselves in the rich sources of the Catholic faith, drawing upon sacred Scripture, the catechism of the Catholic Church, and the writings of the fathers and doctors of the church. We have 550 students and over a thousand alumni serving the church in parishes, dioceses, schools, the academy apostolates, the domestic church, and even the secular world. With master's degrees in theology, past Pastoral Theology, Catholic education, and Biblical Studies. Our programs are for anyone looking to go deeper in their faith. Are you interested in studying theology with the professors of this podcast? Earn your degree online or on campus in St. Louis, Missouri. Apply now for the coming term of study. Learn more at augustine. Edu.
[01:16]
B
You're listening to a podcast on Catholic Saints. This podcast is produced by the Augustine Institute, an apostolate helping Catholics understand, live and share their faith.
[01:38]
C
Hi. Welcome to Catholic Saints. My name is Mary McGeehan, and this is Dr. Carl Vennerstrom, professor here at the August Institute. What do you teach here, Dr. Fendersham?
[01:48]
D
Yeah, good question. I teach church history and I'll be teaching Greek this fall.
[01:54]
C
Nice.
[01:54]
D
But, yeah, mostly the early church, but sort of dipping into the medievals as well.
[01:58]
C
All right, those are fun topics.
[02:00]
D
They are. I like them a lot. I'm biased, but for good reason.
[02:05]
C
Today we're going to talk about St. Dominic. And this series on Catholic saints is an opportunity for us to learn about the life of the saint. Where they grew up and what formed them. What's their legacy to the church today? Just to look at them as role models and sources of inspiration on our own path and journey to Christ. So we're going to do St. Dominic. His feast day is August 8th, and he is the patron of astronomers, Dominican Republic and falsely accused people, and I'm sure amongst many other patrons. So can you give us a biographical sketch? Start with the beginning of what we need to know about St. Dominic. He seems like a giant saint, you know, in the tradition of the church. So where was he born? Or what? What do we need to know about him in his early life?
[03:01]
D
Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, he definitely does loom large through his. His order that he founded the Dominicans but also in his sort of personality. So, yeah, he was born in Spain. He was the child of a noble family that was. That was relatively wealthy. His family itself contains or includes his. His mother, who is blessed, as well as his brother, who is a blessed.
[03:33]
C
Oh, I didn't know that.
[03:34]
D
Yeah, his brother, who also joined his order, and then he had another brother who was a priest, who's a canon regular, which is not a parish priest, but anyways. Sort of complicated, but yeah. And then a sister, I think, who had two children who ended up being blessed too. So he's sort of in this.
[03:57]
C
That's a holy family.
[03:58]
D
Yeah, it's a sort of garden of saints for his family. So a good start. Definitely. He's one of these saints for whom there's a. A childhood that contains stories of piety. So he always refused to sleep in a bed, so he always slept on the floor, these kinds of things. But he went for a kind of medieval education, which included the quadrivium. So he studied math and music and these different things.
[04:36]
C
Roughly, like what time period?
[04:38]
D
Yeah, yeah. So he is like late 12th, early early 13th century. So born in 1170 and then he dies in 1221, the age of 51. Okay, yeah. So. And as a young student, there's a really beautiful story which encapsulates an important feature of his character and his order's character, which is the intellectual life and then poverty. So you. He's a student studying philosophy, and he has these texts which are very expensive because, I mean, they're written on sheets of leather and they have to be handwritten, so they're expensive. And he has his own annotations in them and this kind of thing. So they're very treasured. There's a plague, and so he sells all of these in order to feed the poor. So. So it's these, like, two things, like this life of the mind, but which he's willing to sacrifice, at least in its material form, to serve and help the poor. So that's a bit about his early life. There are other really important episodes. I mean, his life is full of important episodes. But at one point in time, he joins his bishop on this trip, and on that trip through the country, they. They run into a lot of superstition, they run into a lot of heresy. So the Albigensians, you could think of them as like Manichees, if you know about Manichaeism, it's this sort of like, dualist heresy. Or the Cathars, this idea. There's like an evil God who created the world, and there's like this good God. And so there's like a hatred of nature and creation, or the belief at least, that it's evil. Okay, so there's a lot of that. And at the same time as like, that's happening, there's. This is a kind of historical context. In the cities, there's a great deal of prosperity, and the great universities are starting up, like the University of Paris. So there's this thriving intellectual life through the Arabs. There's this reintroduction of Aristotle, the study of philosophy. So blossoming intellectual life in the cities. But there's also a great deal of clericalism. So a lot of the priests are very unconvincing in their message because their personal lives are hypocritical, so. Hypocritical. Yeah, that's right. And then to fight those heresies, they have to sort of combat the fact that while the. At least many of the priests were living sumptuous lives with a lot of wealth, the heretics, the Albigensians, lived lives of poverty and renunciation. So the people who'd been forgotten, they at least found the message of these heretics a lot more convincing than. Than the message of the Catholic Church, in part just because of the way of life of the clergy. So they encounter all of this, and there's sort of calls from the pope to renew preaching. And so the bishop that Dominic was accompanying, he is very enthusiastic about this. And so he joins with the Cistercians, which is this monastic order. And typically, this is another sort of historical thing that's kind of difficult to understand. Typically, when you think of monks in this period, we want to think not about monks who are sort of like living in a city with an apostolate or something, but who are living generally a more sort of remote life that's, like, really focused on prayer and not so focused on service or preaching. And. But they have this sort of poverty aspect. At least the good monks do. But. And they're called upon to preach, even though that's not their sort of, like, natural function. And so eventually, this is what. This is the role that's filled, particularly by Dominic's order, which is op, the order of preachers. Okay? So this is one of their great functions, is to live according to a sort of monastic rhythm of life, with a life in community, a life of poverty and a life of prayer, but then also to be dedicated to preaching and evangelization. So his order, we'll get to this a little bit, but they're Traveling all over the place and preaching to these people and fighting the heresies and then evangelizing people who need to be be evangelized. So yeah, it's this very fascinating period in the church's history.
[09:52]
C
There are a lot of just tensions as you're mentioning, high intellectualism, but then also extreme poverty at war and at play. And it just, it always interests me how the context of what heresies or what crises are happening in that time period, the Lord, you know, send saints for particular antidotes and almost medicine for that time of sickness that people are going through. Spiritual and, you know, literal, but also just fascinating that in that, you know, commitment to poverty, they also have this more availability to be filled for preaching. So in that emptying and commitment to poverty, it makes sense that there's just more space for God to fill so we can give more of God in that self emptying stuff.
[10:42]
D
Yeah, that's right. And One aspect of St. Dominic's character was just to be able to move quickly between places, as quickly as you could move in this period because you're walking everywhere. Right. But still he did travel all over the place. And part of that is that he didn't have these things to carry around. He didn't have all this luggage or. Yeah, he didn't have actual luggage. Yeah, when he died, he died in a habit that he borrowed from someone else because he didn't have his own. So. Yeah, in exactly the way you're saying. Part of his analysis of the culture, if you will, is that it was going to be much more difficult to be a successful evangelist if you're tied down to a bunch of stuff and
[11:36]
C
like you're saying an authentic witness, if the people were surrounded by a lot of hypocrisy, you gotta be very authentic.
[11:43]
D
That's right. Yeah. People notice, like if you care less about them than you care about your stuff. This is not something that is an elusive fact.
[11:53]
C
Right, yes, very good. So let's see, what are there particular topics that Dominicans and Saint Dominic in particular is known to preach on, you said? I think the bishop really mentored him to preach the Gospel. Are there other particular, I don't know, teachings? And why was that a priority for St. Dominic?
[12:18]
D
Yeah, so we have much less in terms of what St. Dominic actually said than we would with his later followers. But you could sort of maybe fill in the gaps.
[12:33]
C
Can you also mention he's so interested.
[12:35]
D
Yeah, so his most important follower, at least in the Dominican order, Thomas Aquinas. Okay, of course, yeah. So we can presume without a doubt that St. Dominic had tremendous intellect and was able to discourse about like any sort of theological topic. And so the. Since he was preaching against these sort of Gnostic or Manichean type heresies, we can sort of presume that he probably preached a lot about creation and the goodness of the created order. Another evidence of his theological acumen would be that he ended up in Rome. And the Pope, rather than letting him leave Rome, sort of forced him to stay as his has his personal theological advisor. And so he was, at least in a theological sense, sort of like the most trusted person for the Pope at this time. And in fact, since St. Dominic there's continuously been a Dominican who's sort of like the theologian in residence to advise the Pope. So there's that, but then also, I mean especially in preaching the Gospel, preaching poverty and preaching renunciation. So just to come back to the sort of twofold aspect of the intellectual life in poverty, part of the heritage of that is that St. Dominic made sure there were friars in Paris from the beginning to be near the great schools in Paris. And so this was not a life of poverty that was opposed any way to the intellectual life. In fact, just as poverty made it possible for them to be more effective preachers, both to just be able to like get places and not be attached to stuff, but also be an effective with an effective witness, they saw that poverty also had the same kind of effect on the intellectual life. If you free yourself from material attachments, you actually have a sort of clearer mind and calmer spirit to address sometimes like very complex speculative questions and to make interventions in the sort of intellectual life of society. So Paris would be sort of like the intellectual center of the world at this point in time. And so he wanted his friars to be sort of right in the middle of that. And then once we get again to Thomas Aquinas, he ends up being a sort of professor, if you will, at the University of Paris. So there ends up being this long heritage of Dominicans and universities for which
[15:33]
C
they're still known for teaching and intellectual life. And the Dominican sisters run so many Catholic schools as teachers still today, which is incredible.
[15:44]
D
Yeah. And the first sort of Dominican sisters were at least supposed to be converted heretics, like converted Alban Jensians that he, he formed into a monastery of sisters.
[15:58]
C
Interesting. I was also pondering how a lot of religious orders were formed in this time period. I was curious your thoughts on that, like why in this particular time was the church so fertile in new religious orders? And also if there's any connection with Dominic and St. Francis.
[16:18]
D
Yeah, yeah. So we were talking about this a bit before. This was a period of. I mean, there were a lot of problems with society that was sort of outlined and problems within the church too. And the sort of. The scope of the solution matched the scope of the problem. So there's that. So, yeah, we have. I mean, the Cistercians are. Are very rapidly expanding at this time. This is. This sort of. That comes out of the Benedictine tradition. At the same time, we have also St. Dominic and St. Francis, like you said. So these two great giants. Pillars. Giants, yeah. And there are as. As kind of evidence of their scope and impact. There are two gigantic statues of St. Dominic and St. Francis in St. Peter's in Rome, flanking St. Peter. Yeah. So both mendicant religious orders. So like both. Both religious orders that focused heavily on poverty, the Franciscans and the Dominicans, St. Francis and St. Dominic are supposed to have met at the Lateran Council. But their religious orders, although having, like, a much different style in a sense and sort of a different aspect now, I would say in general, probably the Franciscans are more sort of like overtly focused on poverty, possibly, whereas the Dominicans are maybe like, more overtly focused on the intellectual life. But that's just sort of like a period in their history, I think. I don't think it's indicative necessarily of, like, the larger trend because there are a lot of Franciscan universities and a lot of famous Franciscan theologians, this kind of thing. But despite their, I don't know, the sort of difference in style, there is this kind of like, mutual dependence on one another. So each religious order traditionally called the founder of the other religious order, like the Holy Father. Maybe I'm getting that wrong. But anyways, they would have. The Dominicans would have a Franciscan come and preach on St. Dominic's feast day, and the Franciscans would have a Dominican come preach on the feast day of St. Francis. Yeah. And you have, like, humility.
[18:53]
A
Yeah.
[18:54]
D
And I think in Dante's Paradiso, you also have, I think, Thomas aquinas talking about St. Francis and St. Bonaventure or Franciscan talking about St. Dominic. So, yeah, there's this sort of like inter.
[19:07]
C
Brotherhood, in a sense.
[19:09]
D
Yeah, true kind of brotherhood. Yeah, that's right.
[19:12]
C
Fascinating. That's good. A good healthy rivalry and balancing each other out, I guess.
[19:16]
D
That's right. Yeah. I mean, it's sort of the kind of rivalry we would long for now in the church.
[19:22]
C
That is very true. Fascinating. Well, is there other. Any other interesting facts about St. Dominic or his life or. I feel like the word dog. Is there some tradition? What is that connection?
[19:38]
D
Yeah, his mother is supposed to have had a vision before he was born of a dog carrying a torch throughout the world. So I think there's an etymology of Dominic that it's Domino canis, like the dog of the Lord.
[19:55]
B
Okay.
[19:56]
D
So carrying this flame and lighting everything on fire.
[20:00]
C
Flame of the Gospel.
[20:01]
D
That's right. Exactly. Yeah. So that's. Yeah. So you often see like, a dog in, like, stained glass for the Dominicans.
[20:11]
C
Okay, that makes sense.
[20:13]
D
Yeah.
[20:13]
C
Very cool.
[20:14]
D
Yeah. A humble but sort of effective evangelist.
[20:20]
C
Yes. And lovable, I guess.
[20:22]
D
Yeah, and lovable. That's right.
[20:25]
C
The two scripture verses that were coming to mind that I was looking for, the Galatians 2, 10. I don't know if it's Paul or the apostles, but they're directing to remember the poor and just knowing their love for Scripture and taking to heart remember the poor, even in their intellectual gift, almost like intellectual. Yeah, Richness. They have that union in remembering the poor and the poverty of the people around them.
[20:53]
D
Yeah, that's good. Yeah.
[20:55]
C
And Then 1st Peter 4:11, that mentions, whoever preaches, let it be with the words of God, and whoever serves, let it be with the strength of God as well. Just comes to mind as you're explaining more about, like, their charism and ethos.
[21:09]
D
Yeah, beautiful. Yeah. And then just maybe the last sort of reflection on his life. I think it's difficult sometimes when you read these lives of the saints and it's like, oh, he had this, like, very clear mission and call, and then he did it. It was awesome. But in, like, point of fact, like, his life was much more complicated. Right. I mean, he was like a canon. So like, more like a parish priest. Not exactly. For like, eight years. And, like, things took time to develop. But I think one thing you can sort of take away with this idea of poverty and preaching, that once his mission was very clear to him, he had a heart set on fire to accomplish it. And that meant he was perfectly willing to let everything, even like, good stuff, kind of fall by the wayside in order to accomplish it. So this is helpful. I think that these things sort of take time to develop. And most people aren't going to be St. Dominic anyways, but you're going to be called to maybe humble and small things. But once you know that, you need to do that thing, to focus on that and then to have a detachment from everything that would prevent you from accomplishing that mission. I think this is a Worthwhile thing to meditate on.
[22:30]
C
No, That's a wonderful reminder. And often, like, one. Yes. Leads to another. Yes. And refined. Yes. That the Lord takes you upon. You're not always exactly sure, even in the messiness of it, where it's going, but the words precisely. Yeah.
[22:43]
D
And this is something. This is something. His followers. So he sent out his first 16 friars sort of all over Europe, in a sense, and they were all like, very upset at him. Like, we're not ready to go. We don't have enough training. We're not. We're not good preachers. All this stuff. And he's like, nope, you're going. And so sometimes it's made clear to us, even though we'd rather it not be the case.
[23:07]
C
Yes, yes. I love that. Okay. And you also were just mentioning supposedly Saint Dominic could have been a redhead.
[23:16]
D
Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I called my friend in the Dominican order this morning and said, what should I tell people about St. Dominic? And he said, I have to go to class in two minutes. But he had red hair, so I didn't double check that. This is part of the oral tradition.
[23:32]
C
So if nothing else, it's the flame of fire.
[23:36]
D
That's right. Yeah.
[23:36]
C
Mother prophetically saw her son into the world. So that's wonderful.
[23:41]
D
Beautiful.
[23:42]
C
Yes. Great. Well, thank you for all of that about the life of St. Dominic. Lots to ponder on in that beautiful union of poverty and intellectual.
[23:52]
B
Thank you for being a dedicated listener to the Catholic Saints podcast. Your support truly uplifts us. For those seeking additional thought provoking content, go to formed.org It's a platform brimming with resources, including insightful videos that align seamlessly with our podcast themes. If you're finding value in our podcast, please consider taking a moment to leave us a review. Your feedback serves as a cornerstone for our growth and outreach.
[24:25]
A
Reach.