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St. John the Apostle
00:23:21
On this episode of Catholic Saints, Taylor Kemp interviews Dr. James Protho on the life, traits, and lessons we can learn from St. John the Apostle. Son of Zebedee, evangelist and gospel writer, St. John experienced the privilege of serving in Jesus’ inner circle. We celebrate the feast of St. John during the Christmas season on December 27.
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- [00:05]
A
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Catholic Saints. My name is Taylor Kemp. I'm the director of FormD and with me today is Dr. Jim Prothro. Who's laughing? You don't like my name?
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B
I was making a face because I didn't realize we were rolling yet.
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A
We're in, people, and there's no going back.
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B
I'm very happy that all of you can see this other side of me.
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A
That's good. Well, okay.
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B
I'm really glad to be here, Taylor.
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A
I'm glad to have you. We. What is this other side of you that you speak of?
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B
The side that makes faces?
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A
Oh, yes.
- [00:31]
B
When the camera's not.
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A
That's true. There may be some of you that are listening to this through podcast. What you're missing out on is a humorous face of Dr. James Prothero.
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B
Yes.
- [00:42]
A
But for those of you who are here on video, you have the privilege of seeing it, so that is good. So, Dr. Prothro, can you tell us quickly, what are you a professor of? What do you teach?
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B
I teach Bible, and I'm a professor of sacred scripture and theology, So I mostly teach biblical classes. So I teach biblical languages here, and I teach classes in different books and sections of the New Testament, especially.
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A
Very good. That is a perfect application for what we were talking about today on this episode of Catholic Saints. We are talking about St. John the Evangelist, the apostle, the gospel writer, obviously, who is in scripture. So, Dr. Brother, can we start off with when do we celebrate the feast of St. John?
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B
Yeah, so the feast of St. John is celebrated on December 27th.
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A
Okay, very good.
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B
It's quite nice because at the beginning of the Christmas season, we read a whole lot from St. John. That's true. From his Epistle especially.
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A
Very nice. Okay, so that's his feast day, December 27th. Mark your calendar right after Christmas. Okay, so we're talking about St. John. Where should we start? Who was St. John or John before he was St. John?
- [01:48]
B
Yeah, that's right. He was just John. So he's John, and he's one of the sons of Zebedee. So he and his brother James are both fishermen and they work for their dad. They seem to be running, helping with the family business. They have different hirelings in the boat. When Jesus encounters them and we meet him in the Synoptic Gospels where James and John are there fishing in a boat with their dad and with some of their hired men, and Jesus calls them, and they leave everything, and they even leave their dad in the boat. They leave their nets and they just go to Follow him and James. John, along with Peter, end up in the Gospels becoming part of Jesus, you could say inner circle. Right. So all of the 12 are Jesus closest companions. Right. Of all the disciples that follow, they're the ones who are set up and will be sent out with authority. Of course, they'll replace Judas out of the 12 there. But Peter, James and John get to do things with Jesus that other people don't get to do. So when Jairus daughter is dying, Jesus sends all the family out except the mother and father when he goes in to heal her and raise her from the dead. And he doesn't bring all of his disciples in, or even all of the 12. He only brings in Peter, James and John. And so they are witnesses to him raising up this little girl. He says, rise, and then she does. Those three are also the three who are invited up to the Mount of Transfiguration when Jesus shows his glory to them. And this is a time where as his inner circle, and especially for Peter as a leader of the 12, this is right after Jesus has just predicted his death for the first time, explicitly, plainly to them, not in hidden riddles or figures, but has said, I'm going to be killed. And they take that really hard. It's not something they're expecting and it's something they struggle with. Of course we see that Peter does. And so right after that, soon after that, Jesus takes Peter, James and John up to a high mountain and then his glory shines through and is revealed to them. And they see the bright cloud. They hear the voice of the Father coming from the cloud saying, this is my beloved Son. Listen to him. Not just this is my son. They kind of know that already. But this time, listen to him. He's not leading you astray. He's not crazy. Follow him and listen to him all the way to the cross. Because on the other side of it will be resurrection and glory. Peter, James and John are also the three who go off with Jesus at the Garden of Gethsemane to pray with him. And they're the ones who are falling asleep because they're so tired. So he keeps them with them. And John, as well as Peter, according to Luke's Gospel, also gets sent off to prepare the Passover for him and the night of the Last Supper. So John is one of Jesus inner circle during his earthly ministry.
- [04:49]
A
Okay, so we can certainly say that Jesus in some capacity chose him for a particular intimacy even within the apostles, which is rather illuminating, knowing he is responsible. He is the author of, of a major portion of the New Testament, and that that is coming from a place of intimacy. So I did want to ask. So if there's. If there's listeners or viewers out there who have never really noticed, perhaps that there is this kind of levels of intimacy even within, you know, if you're talking about there's disciples, then there's apostles, then there's these three, could you actually open up a little bit? Like, why would Jesus do that? Obviously, that is a little speculative, perhaps, but why would you. Would you be willing to put forward a possible thought as to why is Jesus kind of distinguishing. Separating out people who are following him?
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B
Yeah, that's right. So we've got kind of different levels of groups, right? And some of them are not necessarily levels of intimacy that Jesus chooses. They're just. They're ones that the people have chosen. So in the Gospels, you'll meet the crowds, and the crowds like Jesus, and they follow him, but they're not necessarily disciples, which is a word that means student or like a particular follower of a rabbi or teacher or a prophet. The crowds aren't necessarily his disciples. They're people who kind of are there for the magic show, or they're there because they like seeing Jesus stick it to the Sadducees, right? When he says things about them or corrects them or rebuffs them, that's kind of what they're there for, right? So the crowds, Jesus, often in the Gospels, especially in Mark, you'll see him do this a lot, and he'll tell you explicitly he tried to get away from the crowd. When he does most of his teaching, he actually tries to bring. To do it just with his followers, his disciples. Now, disciples includes lots of people who follow Jesus, who really are trying to learn from him, learn the way of intimacy with God that he's teaching. And that includes lots of other people who follow him from Galilee, including Mary Magdalene, Salome, including lots of other people. They're not on the outside, right? They're people who follow him and know him really well and take care of him, and he takes care of them. But the 12 are set apart within that group, not because Jesus says, you will be closer to me than all the others, and I'm going to keep them at arm's length. It's not because Jesus keeps St. Mary Magdalene or his mother, who also follows, right, kind of at arm's length and says, you're not going to be close to me in that way, but that he chooses the 12 for a specific job. So he names them apostle, which is a word that means sent one, but really it gets used to refer to like ambassadors or emissaries. Right. These are the people who are going to have a kind of authoritative role in representing Jesus. Right. He gives them authority to go out and cast out demons and heal the sick and preach the kingdom of God in his name, even during his earthly ministry. And then of course, the 12 have a special role to do that after Jesus resurrection when he sends them out where all of his disciples are missionary disciples. But the 12 have a particular role to represent him authoritatively and make decisions for everybody else. So they do sometimes get brought in a little bit closer. Right. And Peter, along with James and John get brought in a little bit closer so that he can teach them specific things that they need to know for the sake of their representing him. And then they will teach other people. Right?
- [08:39]
A
Yeah, that was extremely helpful. So we've got. You can move from the crowds. Disciple, the 12 inner circle. So it's. If I'm understanding correctly, you're. You're suggesting that it's not necessarily a matter of intimacy so much as missionary sending or ministry.
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B
Yeah, perhaps.
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A
But it doesn't like, mean that just because these three are in the inner circle there, there's going to be a natural, hopefully increase in intimacy the closer. The more that you see. But it's not like, well, you guys are destined to be closer to me than my mother or Mary Magdalene or something, perhaps. But it has to do with mission. That was a very good explanation.
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B
Yeah, that's right.
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A
Thank you.
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B
Official kind of public mission work, I.
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A
Would say, though it does seem that especially given that John was part of this inner circle and he did get to witness a lot, that it does give kind of a. It makes me want to approach his gospel and his letters in a particular way because you're like, he was able to see so many different things. So. Thank you. Was there anything else you would like to say? Just about the man, so to speak? The man, John?
- [09:43]
B
Yeah. Well, so a couple of other things. So you've mentioned John's gospel. John's gospel doesn't mention John by name. Right. He mentions the son of Zebedee or usually he just talks about this other disciple whom Jesus loved. But if you compare it with the other gospels, it seems really clear that the only one that John's gospel doesn't mention by name is John. And he's usually the specific one. So he refers to. To himself kind of in the third person most of the time.
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A
Is that disputed at all that it is John's gospel.
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B
It is disputed.
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A
It is.
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B
Yeah, that's right. So some people. Some. Some scholars will say, well, the disciple whom Jesus loved, who. Who does it say that he loved in the gospel? Whom does it say? Well, it says how he loved Lazarus. Right. So maybe Lazarus is supposed to be this person, right.
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A
Or.
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B
Or something like that. But it. I think the. Certainly the tradition and a majority of scholars who look at this say, like, you're supposed to think it's John. Everybody's thought it's John. Otherwise we're missing one of the key three from the inner circle in this gospel. But he. So he's in a position of intimacy with Jesus even at the Last Supper, where he is sort of reclining on the Lord's breast. That is to say that everybody's so in paintings, right? Everybody's sitting up in, like, chairs or on a bench, and then he's always leaning over to Jesus like this. That's not what we're talking about. Right. We're talking about people who are reclining at table, right? Meaning that there's not chairs, there's a low table to the ground, and they're all lying down and then kind of propping themselves up. Okay, Right. But so John is situated in that kind of setting really close to Jesus. Right. It's not like there's not a really awkward, like one person leaning from one chair over to Jesus just so that he can.
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A
Some of the paintings are awkward.
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B
Some of the paintings are awkward.
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A
You look at it and you're like, I don't know about that. It's a little different. But, hey. So that is very helpful to know.
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B
But John also. So he's presented to us as one who's especially close to Jesus, one who believes quickly. So in the Easter account in John's Gospel, chapter 20, John is the only gospel that tells us that John, that this beloved disciple ran to the tomb along with Peter and got there first.
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A
Yeah, a little quicker.
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B
He makes sure to say, like, they both ran. John got there first. Peter looked into the tomb first. But when Peter. Peter saw that the tomb was empty and that the cloths were all there in the place. But then it says, then the other disciple leaned in and saw and he believed. So John, Peter gets a special resurrection appearance. He's not the first, of course. That's Mary Magdalene and the women. But Peter gets a special resurrection appearance and instructions. But John is the first one in John's Gospel, at least, to look in and go. He hasn't been moved. Nobody's stolen his body. He believes in a way that other people don't really quickly right after seeing the empty tomb. But he also has his flaws. So the two sons of Zebedee get called the sons of thunder by Jesus. And it seems like that's because they're a little bit impetuous. Okay, so it's John who comes up to Jesus one time and says, hey, we saw somebody else casting out demons in your name and we stopped him. And Jesus says, don't do that. They're not against us, they're with us. It's okay. And it's James and John who in Mark's Gospel, Matthew has their mother doing this. But in Mark's Gospel, James and John who come up to Jesus and say, hey, we're talking about who is the greatest. We got a favor to ask you. When you come into your kingdom, can we sit at your right hand and on your left on thrones?
- [13:46]
A
And Jesus is like, well.
- [13:49]
B
And then teaches them about the humility of following him. But John learns that lesson, right? Just like Peter. To have a high view of the apostles doesn't mean that we think that they never make mistakes. That wouldn't be a high view of the apostles. That would be an impossible view of these human apostles. But they respond when Jesus teaches and corrects them. And we, I hope, will imitate them in the same way. Because we who falter and have questions and have misunderstandings can also look at the same John who comes up to Jesus and says, hey, set me at your right hand. And Jesus says, no, that's not the way we're going to do this. And that's already been determined by my father. That John doesn't stay in that state of being impetuous and competitive for the rest of his life. He learns from that. And he follows more intimately Jesus during Jesus's earthly ministry, and then certainly after that as an apostle to the rest of the church.
- [14:54]
A
That is a beautiful lesson because we all have desires of our hearts of all different kinds, hopefully most of them good. But nevertheless, even good desires may be at the wrong time. Or maybe there'll be a little bit of this, a little bit of that. But to have the humility to go to the Lord in prayer, in scripture, through the council of friends, and even have those kinds of things corrected is just like, so important part of the virtue of prudence. That is a good lesson that we can pull from John. Yeah. Alrighty. So these are some traits that we've pulled out. Is there more that we can know about him?
- [15:30]
B
Well, so there are different traditions about the rest of his life. So the book of Revelation says it's written by John. And there were questions, there have been questions about this at different times. But a lot of the tradition has identified the John who wrote Revelation with John the Evangelist and the son of Zebedee. And that book is written from an island called Patmos. And he says he's there because of the testimony of Jesus, right? Or because of the word of the Gospel. And so most of the early traditions, the earliest ones, all say that John at one point moved to Ephesus and was a kind of bishop in Ephesus for a while. That's in modern day Turkey. But then that he was imprisoned on the island of Patmos for a short amount of time, kind of exiled there by the authorities. But then that he got to come back and that he preached in Ephesus and he died. And one of the things that he, along with the rest of the New Testament writers and of course along with Jesus, emphasizes is the love command, right? Jesus says all of the law of God is summarized in two precepts. Love God the Father and love your neighbor. And Augustine even connects this to the sign of the cross, right up and across, right? Love for God the Father, Son and Spirit, and love for our neighbor. And that really summarizes the Christian faith if you know the way that it works, right? Know everything that it means. And. And that's an emphasis that we see in John's Gospel and in first, second and third John, three letters in the New Testament from John that we read during the Christmas season on Sundays. It's emphasized massively in Jesus washing the feet of his disciples after the supper, the Last Supper. He washes their feet and says, right, you do likewise for one another. You're not greater than I am. A student isn't greater than his master. Disciple isn't greater than his teacher. You're going to do what I did. I've washed your feet. So you wash the feet of one another, love one another, and that's how they'll know that you're my disciples. And Jerome tells a story about John being feeble and old after he was released from his captivity, being carried around from church to church, right, from assembly to assembly in Ephesus, right in his diocese, we might say, and that he would get brought there. And then people would say, tell us things, right? Tell us a story from Jesus. Tell us something we don't know. And he would say, little children, love one another. And that was what he would say over and over. And over again, because that was the core of the encouragement and the message that he had.
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A
That is beautiful. Would you mind pulling out some? So maybe there's people out there who have never read the Gospel of John or some of his letters. Would you. Would you offer any kind of tips to how to. How to approach the Gospel of John in particular?
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B
Oh, sure. So a lot of us are familiar first with the story as it's told in. We call the Synoptic gospels, right? Matthew, Mark and Luke, which are synoptic because they all. They all see from a similar kind of vantage point. John's Gospel, according to early church tradition, is written later than those. It's the last of the four gospels to be written. And that seems to make sense with the way in which he wrote it. Clement of Alexandria from the late one hundreds says that it's a spiritual gospel. And by that, he doesn't mean that the other ones don't teach spiritual things, but he means that the way that John tells the story and the kinds of stories that John includes emphasize spiritual realities in a way that the others don't. So the very beginning of John's gospel starts off with not well, at the beginning of the story, there was Joseph and Mary and an angel showed up. He says, in the beginning was the word of God, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, and God's word is the way that everything came into being. And then he Sundays in John 1:14, the word became flesh and dwelt among us. So when John knows that everybody else already knows the story, the other gospels are out there, right? He's not offering a competing account. He's offering a gospel that will show us different things about Jesus that you might have missed if before you thought that this is another miraculous birth where an angel shows up kind of like Samson's or like Isaac's or like any of the other kind of miracle births in the Old Testament. John says, you're not getting that. You're not getting everything that's there. Because really what this is, this is the eternal word of God with the Father as the Son from all eternity not created, the same substance with the Father who now has become flesh. And that's what this birth story is about. John's gospel doesn't have a regular account of the Last Supper the way that the other synoptics do, right? Where Jesus does the words of institution, breaks the bread and gives it to him, John just skips over the supper part. But then he comes to. He comes to Jesus saying a New commandment I give you, Love one another as I've loved you. And if you have a new covenant, which is what Jesus says, his blood poured out is the blood of the new covenant. You have a new covenant, then you have new commandments that go with the covenant, Right? Commandments always go with covenants. And this one right in the new covenant, what's the chief command? There it is. So John gives you that complementary perspective. And John's letters, the second and third John, are really short. And they're not the best place to start if you want to read the letters. But if you start with one John, you'll just get kind of a feel of it. If I read the first few verses, this is 1 John 1, 1, 5. And he says, we declare to you what was from the beginning, what we have heard. So he in the inner circle, has heard what we've seen with our eyes, what we've looked at and touched with our hands concerning the word of life. That's Jesus himself, the word that became incarnate. This life was revealed, and we've seen it. And we testify to it and declare to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us. We declare to you what we've seen and heard so that you also might have fellowship with us. Our fellowship is with the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ. And we write these things so that our joy may be complete and you would have fellowship with us. So notice John's in the inner circle. He sees the transfiguration. Other disciples don't see that. Even not only the 12 see that, right? John is in the inner circle with Jesus and Peter and James, right? For lots of other things. But the whole purpose of him being brought into those special moments is that so he could see and then he could bring you to have the same fellowship and the same knowledge. So it's not something that's exclusive to him. It's something that he gets first so that he can share. And by reading his Gospel and letters and of course, asking for his intercession and having devotion to him, we can share that same joy and the same knowledge of the eternal life that was with the Father in the beginning that he tells us about.
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A
That is beautiful. There is no better place to end than I think there. Do you have any final comments that we've not covered?
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B
St. John, pray for us.