B (2:22)

It's a really strong statement.

A (2:24)

So surely he was from 50 years ago.

B (2:26)

Yeah. So I just wanted to sort of get everyone excited about St. Thomas, you know, but he was born in the 13th century, so high Middle Ages. And oftentimes we have this sense that the Middle Ages are the Dark Ages. But if you get. If you get to know anything about St. Thomas, you see, immediately that's not the case. Now, he was born in around the year 1225 in southern Italy, about 80 miles south of Rome, to a wealthy family. He was the youngest son, and as the youngest son, it was sort of customary at the time that his parents might put him in a monastery for his education, and then one day he could become an Abbott. And so he sort of set off, he was placed in this trajectory, but then suddenly and unexpectedly, he met this new group in the church called the Dominican Friars, who are, of course, still around today. And St. Thomas was captivated by the Dominicans, and despite the resistance of his parents, he eventually joined the order.

A (3:28)

And that order, the Dominicans, they hadn't been around for very long, correct?

B (3:33)

Yeah. The Dominicans had only been founded a few decades before. St. John was very recent, exact sort of part of the scandal. It shows something already of his courage and his willingness to follow Christ wherever he was leading.

A (3:47)

It's interesting, too, because it kind of cuts across the cloth of who you. For many of us who are familiar with St. Thomas or have heard a lot about him, he's a very structured thinker. He could be described as rigid by some. And then you discover, like, wow, he went into a new order. You would almost think he would join an order that had been around for a long time, but he didn't.

B (4:11)

Right. And you can see that even in the fact that what he didn't do was become a Benedictine monk who'd been around for centuries. Instead, he joined this new order, the Dominicans. And I think part of the reason is because the Dominicans were a really revolutionary force in the church in the 13th century. They were committed to the renewal of theology and catechesis of teaching. They saw how poor teaching was, how. With what great difficulty people had responding to arguments especially, especially heresies that had taken root throughout Europe. And Dominic knew that in order to do this, you needed to be well formed in your mind and live a holy life in all of your conduct. And so he wanted to take the best of the monastic spiritual tradition and its disciplines and combine them with a rigorous preaching formation, to have friars who, unlike monks who were located in monasteries, could go about in order to preach the gospel and in order to respond. And that's the kind of formation that St. Thomas received.

A (5:12)

How would they do, you know? Do we know how would they receive their formation?

B (5:16)

Yeah. So often in these houses, the studium or studia, where the friars would be trained, and sometimes this would be attached to the early universities that had Just been founded within the last century or so. And that's actually what St. Thomas did for most of his life. He was a teacher for the Dominican order. And so he taught from. He was trained by another saint, St. Albert the Great in modern day Germany. And then he taught throughout Paris and Italy throughout his life until he died at a fairly young age at 50, unexpectedly. So he lived from about 1225 to 1275.

A (5:56)

Okay. So he, as a young man, he is sent to the Benedictine monastery for an education. There's this upstart order, the Dominicans. He leaves the monastery to go join them. In the midst of this, he is getting his formation from his brothers and from wherever. So talk a little bit more about his, so to speak, his career as a Dominican. Of. Do we have much of a timeline of. He went from this to this to this? What did he do?

B (6:21)

Great question. Yeah. So after he joined the Dominican order, he very quickly went, as I just mentioned, to study with St. Albert the Great.

A (6:30)

And.

B (6:30)

And then, surprisingly, even though he was too young, St. Albert actually nominated him to be a professor for the Dominicans in Paris. So it was already a sign of his. That Albert recognized his great capabilities. Yeah. In fact, there's a famous story that supposedly St. Thomas was quite quiet, and so his classmates mockingly called him the dumb ox.

A (6:54)

Big guy.

B (6:55)

Exactly, exactly. And St. Albert said that one day this ox would bellow so loud that the whole, whole world would hear it. Prophetic, which we still. Yeah, exactly. And so he taught for a while in Paris and then moved back to Italy for the formation of Dominicans. And then also another unprecedented move, he came back to Paris to teach again there. And he was constantly writing. I mean, almost in some ways, he'd be like the saint of the Q and A today, constantly answering questions. But his main work was as a teacher. Okay, he taught. What did he teach? Yeah, yeah. He taught theology, interpretation of Scripture, and introduction to doctrine.

A (7:34)

Okay, so tell us a little bit more about that. What do we, you know, today, when we look back at him as Universal Doctor of the Church? What are we pointing to? What has the Church learned from him over the ages?

B (7:44)

Yes. So I think some of the. Perhaps one of the things that stands out most about St. Thomas, which is. Which many people recognize in this work he wrote called the Summa Theologia. Some people might be familiar with that or have heard the name before. The Summa. It means kind of the sum of theology. It's a kind of introductory work, but at a graduate level, so sort of for the formation of Dominican friars, for

A (8:09)

any of you out there who have read it, and to Dr. Mooney's remark when he just said it was introductory, if you feel that it might be a little bit above introductory, I am with you.

B (8:20)

Yes, it was. The best way to think about it is, I think, introductory at the graduate level.

A (8:26)

Yes.

B (8:26)

So a. Sort of. So introductory, advanced.

A (8:29)

Yes.

B (8:31)

But actually, one of the things that people really admired from the beginning about St. Thomas's work is its clarity and simplicity.

A (8:37)

Yes.

B (8:38)

He always got right to the point. And I think part of the reason is. And this is one of the reasons why I think St. Thomas is a patron for teachers and students is. Is I kind of think of St. Thomas as like a scene of the truth. Yes, he loved the truth, but of course, this isn't an abstract or academic thing for him. The truth is Jesus Christ, and he wants to know Christ and all things in relation to Christ. But in order to do that, in order to do that really well, he dedicated himself rigorously to teaching and studying the way. There's a motto that the Dominican order still uses today that comes from the writings of St. Thomas, which is to contemplate and to hand on to others the fruits of contemplation. This idea that you can't teach what you don't know. And so Aquinas dedicated himself rigorously to the pursuit of the truth and handing it on in a very structured way. And that's, I think, one of the most compelling things about him. You know, Aquinas's summa, it's all written in this question and answer format. There's a question, some, and then he imagines some objections, and then he gives some answers and resolutions. And one of the things I'll just say that I admire about that is, you know, people have questions today, they always have questions, and a lot of people don't take those questions seriously. You know, anyone who's ever had the experience of getting a fake answer. Aquinas will never give you a fake answer. Now maybe you'll read a question, you realize that's. That's not my question. But he takes seriously the questions that people have because he wants to give a holistic picture of the truth.

A (10:20)

Yeah. And to your point about. He is a great model of a seeker of the truth, that he also recognized that the truth was something you. Not just. It was something you could really hold onto. So when you're investigating a question, it's like there is an answer, a real answer. And I've always been amazed. I've not read the summa through and through, but have gone throughout certain parts. But I've just been amazed at how sort of capacious, how large, how expansive his thought is, because you stumble on these questions and you're like, not only has that never been a question of mine, I can't believe anyone's ever asked that question. And it's really incredible. You're like, there's such a. I've always been. I love the Dominicans. I was formed by them. But there's such a charity in their study that it's so rigorous. And it's work. It's a lot of work to come to truly know something. And then when you look at his work, which covers so much, you're like, the amount of love that had to drive that, because it's no small thing at all. And, yeah, I feel like whenever I've read him, you just see he must have had such a desire to help people understand from so many angles.

B (11:26)

And I think that's exactly the point. It's not that he just wants to do this academic exercise. It's not that he just has to. The courses have to be taught. You've gotta check the boxes. No, he cares deeply about formation. He cares deeply about being a teacher. And I think in many ways, you know, we actually don't know a lot about the life of St. Thomas from himself. He wrote very little about his life. And, you know, it's great to have that. We have so many different kinds of saints, but sometimes people, you know, they see in a saint, like Padre Pio, the power of the miracles, or they see in a saint like Saint Therese, her autobiography of the revelation of the deep love that she had. We don't have anything like that for St. Thomas, except that you come to see that he gave himself totally to his work of teaching, and that was his holiness. And everyone recognized it. But in some ways, he really wanted to. He actually had so much humility, I think, that he hid himself in that teaching. You know, when people asked him how did he know so much, he didn't say, I deeply studied or, well, you know, I have a memory that's greater than anyone else's.

A (12:37)

I've read so many books.

B (12:39)

No, he said, every good insight I ever had, I obtained in prayer. And, in fact, other people would tell. Yeah, other people would say, there are these stories that St. Thomas, when he was stuck with a really difficult question, especially commenting on the Scriptures, you know, what did Isaiah mean when he wrote this? What did Paul mean when he wrote this? Would pray to them and some of his brothers later said that they saw St. Paul or Isaiah appear to him and answer his question. So devotion was never detached from teaching, right?

A (13:10)

Yeah, it was an integrated.

B (13:12)

And this is why I think St. Thomas is such a great model for students and teachers, is that there's a way that we can really give ourselves to teaching, to helping people come to understand the Lord. And St. Thomas models that.

A (13:25)

I've also heard the story that didn't he also, when he had questions and he needed answers, he would just rest his head on the tabernacle.

B (13:31)

Yes. Yeah.

A (13:32)

So beautiful. Because he's going to truth himself in Christ. So I want to ask, so say someone is listening to this episode and they don't know much about Thomas and they're interested. Where are some good places to start?

B (13:46)

Yeah, that's a great question. So I think one of the really remarkable things about St. Thomas is that as I mentioned earlier, you know, the Church sees him as a universal doctor. And it's because the insights of St. Thomas are really still alive today in people, in the influence he's had in the Church. And I think one of the clearest places is in the Dominican order, which continues to look to St. Thomas as a great teacher. And so I actually think one of the best things to do is to learn about St. Thomas from the Dominicans themselves. And so maybe that could mean if someone knows a Dominican friar. But the Dominicans have also put out this great series of videos on St. Thomas that I find really helpful.

A (14:35)

What are they called?

B (14:35)

Yeah, they're called Aquinas 101. Really simple. Check them out. Aquinas 101. So they're a great introduction to the life of St. Thomas because I mention this because it can be hard for us to get into. To read the works of St. Thomas because they were written for his students. And I think it's a sign of what a good teacher he was that he wrote them well for those students. But there's a kind of language used, an expectation of philosophical training that it's difficult. However, for anyone who wants to. St. Thomas Whole Summa is available online in lots of different places. You can just search Thomas Aquinas Summa. A common website is called newadvent.org there's also one called Aquinas CC or lots of places where you can find. Many of his works translate into English. But I think starting with the Dominicans is a great option. I've also really liked. We've talked about the. You and I have talked about the biography that G.K. chesterton wrote, which is, I think, really gets at St. Thomas. I really like a book called Thomas Aquinas, a portrait by Dennis Turner.

A (15:53)

Okay.

B (15:53)

Really good introduction.

A (15:55)

Check that out.

B (15:55)

To St. Thomas.

A (15:56)

Yeah, I agree. The Aquinas 101 videos I've gone through and would also highly recommend. But it is nice to have a guide because I found, as someone who was not brought up in the Catholic tradition, that he uses certain words, form and matter and accident. That had a meaning to me that made no sense when reading them in him. And once you kind of unlock that key, it starts to click a little bit. But you need. It is true, you need some help, and there's plenty of good guides out there, and the Dominicans are wonderful for that.

B (16:24)

GK Chesterton says he was once in a bookstore and saw someone reading a book, a volume of St. Thomas, closed it, frowned, and said, if that's God's simplicity, I don't want to know anything about his complexity.

A (16:36)

That's pretty good.

B (16:37)

So the irony is that God is only simple. There's no complexity to God. Yes, but this is one of the great insights I wanted to ask.

A (16:44)

I wish I would have asked this earlier. So one question is, there has been around St. Thomas some controversy in the past in the history of the Church. His teaching was suppressed at certain moments in respect to Aristotle, his philosophy, which today we don't take nearly as contentious, obviously. But can you talk a little bit about that? Because, In a sense, St. Thomas was doing something that was not totally settled upon or even fair game, and now it is. But it benefited the Church. So could you talk a little bit about that?

B (17:15)

Yeah, absolutely. When he taught in Paris near the end of his life, the works of Aristotle, the ancient Greek philosopher, were really controversial, and in part because of certain ways that people construed Aristotle. So shortly after his death, the Bishop of Paris did condemn certain propositions that were in Aquinas. I wouldn't take this as meaning that the Church had ever, as a whole, condemned anything by St. Thomas. But the thing is, he often uses this term, simply the philosopher, to refer to Aristotle. And it's this title of respect. And the reason is because, to go back to that quotation I mentioned from John Paul II earlier, that no one has ever obtained a greater synthesis of faith and reason. It's because he thought there really is only one truth, and truth cannot contradict truth, which means something true in Aristotle cannot, if it's genuinely true, can't be contradictory to something true in revelation. And something true in revelation cannot Be contradictory, something genuinely true in, you know, the best insights. And then we would think of philosophy, maybe today we might think of the sciences. All of these go together because you see something, I think St. Thomas had such a capacious approach to the truth. He wanted to know wherever the truth would come from in order to present this kind of holistic synthesis, as I was mentioning. And in that way, he's not afraid of learning from others. You know, I think maybe that's one of the things. Things that stands out about him relative to his contemporaries, that he's not afraid of engaging with people. He's not afraid of saying that Aristotle's wrong in certain places. You should read some of the times that he goes after Aristotle. But he wants to find the highest integration he can. And if there are insights in Aristotle or if there are insights in other Greek thinkers, he wants to draw it all together. And I think that that kind of generosity, we might call it even a kind of charity, a love for the truth, wherever it is, you know, that's so needed today.

A (19:23)

Agreed.

B (19:24)

Because people often are very dismissive of something that doesn't sound right to them. Dismissive of arguments. And. No, Aquinas always patiently thinks teachers, you

A (19:33)

don't hear him out.

B (19:34)

And this is so essential to being a teacher. So that's again, why he's a great patron for teachers.

A (19:39)

Yeah. And I agree that today that is so necessary because, you know, if you were to paint in extremes of two different groups, the more conservative or the more progressive, you know, the character of the progressive is all that is old is bad, and the best is yet to come. And then the opposite is the conservative, which is said, everything that's new is bad and we must retain. And he walked a very nice fine line where he was willing to be open to all, take in and synthesize, and then come out with something that was truly faithful to Christ and to the truth generally. And he was fair to the sciences. Because we shouldn't, as Catholics be afraid of new scientific developments. We must, like, look at them with a prudential judgment, you know, not taking as truth that which is presented for sure, but. But willing to understand that, as you said, nothing that is found in the sciences, the material world in which God that God created can contradict our faith. And. And there is like that, that hidden seed of doubt in us that can. Can. Sometimes we're like, whoa, I want to. Let's keep that at arm's length. I'm doing good over here. And as you said, St. Thomas was. Would be firmly against that camp. Yeah, no, let's listen. Let's truly listen and integrate these things and we don't have to be afraid as Christians.

B (20:54)

Yeah, absolutely.

A (20:55)

It is beautiful. Okay, so we are closing up here. So would you say what are some primary things that how can we take what we just talked about from St. Thomas and maybe integrate in little bits into our life today?

B (21:10)

Yeah, great question. So maybe one way that we can do this actually would go back to what you the story you told earlier about Thomas resting his head on the tabernacle. You know, and we've seen lots of things that he had charity towards people he disagree with. He loved the truth. He wanted to integrate faith and reason, but he did this all through prayer and through a love of Christ. One of the best stories that anyone who wants to know anything about St. Thomas as a saint should know is that when St. Thomas wrote his section on the Eucharist in his Summa, which is beautiful because one of the things he says is that, you know, what God truly wants, scandalously, is to be friends with us. And that's remarkable. This isn't just some metaphor. He really genuinely wants to be friends with us. And that's why Jesus says, I have called you friends. But friends can't be absent from one another, which is why Christ makes himself present in the Eucharist for us. And so Aquinas writes this incredible treatise on the Eucharist. And the story is that afterwards, when he was in prayer, the Lord himself appeared to him and said, you have written well of me, Thomas. What would you like as a reward? And he said, nothing but you, Lord. And so this is what he received and this is what makes him a saint. So to take all of these different parts, you know, whether we're teachers or talking about the faith or just looking for someone to help teach us, to bring them together around a love of the Lord and prayer. I think that's. That's a great lesson.

A (22:37)

That is a great lesson. Well, Dr. Mooney, thank you so much for joining us on Catholic Saints. Thank you viewers out there. We hope that you liked this episode. We will see you next time. God bless.

B (22:50)

You can watch these interviews in video

A (22:52)

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