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The Conversion of St. Paul
00:20:33
Dr. Ben Akers sits down with Dr. James Prothro, Assistant Professor of Sacred Scripture at the Augustine Institute Graduate School, to discuss the conversation of one of the largest figures in Christianity, Saint Paul.
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- [00:03]
A
Hello and welcome to Form. Now, my name is Ben Akers and I'm the executive director of Formed. And joining me today is Dr. Jim Prothero, who is a professor at the Augustine Institute Graduate School of Theology. And today we're going to be talking about The Conversion of St. Paul, this feast day that we celebrate on January 25th in the liturgical calendar. And we celebrate this feast day of a persecutor of the Church who moves to an apostle of the church. And we're going to be talking about this is the only conversion that's actually celebrated on the calendar. We're here at the Augustine Institute. And St. Augustine is a great hero of ours and he has a big conversion in his own life when he hears this voice, take and read, take and read, and the word of God reaches out in a sense and grabs him and converts him to the faith where he knows that he should become a baptized Christian. But we don't celebrate his feast day on the liturgical calendar, but we do celebrate the conversion of. So today we're going to be talking about St. Paul and his conversion. Jim, what do we know about. Sometimes I hear Paul, sometimes I hear Saul. What do we know about Saul, Paul in the New Testament?
- [01:05]
B
Oh, sure. So as you said, he's sort of a man with two names, right. As we encounter him in Scripture, is.
- [01:15]
A
That like a first and last name, like Jim Prothero?
- [01:17]
B
No, not quite. So it's. It would be common for especially people who wanted their children, who were Jews and were faithful and gave their children Hebrew names, but also wanted them to be able to sort of like live in Greek society without a lot of weird stuff. His name Saul, as we say it, would have been Shaul, which is not really a set of sounds that you have in Greek or in Latin.
- [01:48]
A
So it said the Hebrew name.
- [01:49]
B
Yeah. So Shaul Saul would be his Hebrew name. Right. Named after the first king of Israel and also from Paul's same tribe, tribe of Benjamin. He would be named after him, but he would also have another name that sounds like it in this case, Paul, Paulus Saul, that he would sort of go by in Roman and Greek society. And from what we can tell of Paul, he's not raised in Jerusalem. He's raised in. Or he's not born in Jerusalem, he's from Tarsus, which is in Asia Minor, where they spoke Greek as a first language.
- [02:30]
A
Is that modern day Turkey?
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B
Modern day Turkey, that's right, yeah. And he seems to have been from a family that was able to educate him well, to send him off for study in Jerusalem, probably to study the writings of God's word, to study the scriptures. But also he seems to have gotten a good education otherwise than being able to write and speak in Greek very well. He says that his parents were citizens of the Roman Empire, which is today. You know, you just get citizenship when you're born, if you're in a country. And it's not a sort of weird circumstance, but it was a great privilege to have citizenship in the Roman Empire. And to have this sort of gave you certain political privileges, certain abilities to appeal your case to the highest authority, even to the emperor, which is something that Paul does late in the Book of Acts. He's been in prison for years, moving from one prison to another. And finally he says, take me to Rome, I'm a citizen. Just get me out of here.
- [03:33]
A
It's kind of a prize too, right?
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B
Yeah. Everybody goes, what? You're a what? Right? Because it's not common. One person says, you're a citizen. I bought my citizenship, and I had to buy it for a very large sum. I had to pay this giant fee to become a citizen. And Paul says, I was born with mine. I got mine from my parents. So he's intellectual. He's also heavily formed in the scriptures of Israel, and he's able to communicate and live in the world of Roman politics and Greek culture. And with all of that, he's a very, very strongly committed Pharisee.
- [04:14]
A
So what does that mean, to be a strongly committed Pharisee? Because I see the Pharisees in the New Testament and Jesus seems to be pretty down on them pretty often.
- [04:21]
B
Yeah, yeah. As you read the Gospels, when Jesus interacts with the Pharisees, usually they're having an argument. And that's what gets mentioned for us in the Bible. And we learn from the argument that Jesus has with them and the teaching that he presents. But to be a Pharisee among the other different groups of Jews at the time of the New Testament meant to be strongly committed to obeying God and God's laws and strongly committed to God's word. So the Pharisees is largely a lay movement of people who want to be faithful to God, not to be wishy washy or compromise. And yet they're also kind of not as extreme as the people who ran off to the desert. So they still would go to the temple, they still would do all of the things and participate in all of the things that the people of God were doing. But their main thing is we want to follow God's word. We Want to believe it all. So the Pharisees different from, say, the Sadducees, The Pharisees believe very much that God will raise all the dead for judgment. The Pharisees are looking for a messiah. Sadducees and other groups, some of them are looking for these things. Some of them expect them, Some of them go, eh, I don't know. Pharisees believe in angels. They believe in spirits and souls. They believe in doing good, following all the laws, and they're looking forward to God raising the dead. Right. And beginning the new creation. And so, on the one hand, this sets Paul up really well and other Pharisees to be able to hear the message about Jesus. On the other hand, as a Pharisee, the way that Jesus comes, the way that the Messiah came, that he died and then rose, that he died a humiliating death on a cross for the sins of the world, isn't the way that they expected the prophecies to be fulfilled. Right?
- [06:19]
A
Because the word of God says, cursed is he who hangs upon a tree.
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B
Right?
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A
So it seems like it's a direct contradiction to God's word.
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B
That's right, yeah. Deuteronomy says, cursed is anyone who hangs on a tree. And so if you're really serious about the word of God, you look at Jesus and you go, he's cursed. He can't be the Messiah, the vindicated, risen, exalted Messiah who died and rose. He can't be that he's been cursed. And Paul actually, later on in his life as an apostle, he writes the letter to the Galatians, and he mentions this verse and he says it's not a contradiction. He says it's because Jesus took on the curse of sin for us, and that's why he was hung on a tree. But he couldn't see these things at the beginning. And so this is why, on the.
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A
One hand, he's blind, in a sense.
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B
Yeah, exactly. So this is why, on the one hand, him being a Pharisee sets him up well, to believe that Jesus rose from the dead, because he already is. Looking for God to do that sets him up well to believe that the Messiah will come and deliver them. On the other hand, this is why we celebrate his conversion, because his conversion is a really big deal. He mentions it, the story is told three different times in Acts where it happens, and then two other times when Paul retells the story of his conversion and he mentions it also in his letters to say the fact that I, as somebody who completely hated this message, and when I heard it I thought it was impious. I thought they were saying a cursed guy is the Son of God and that Paul was brought by God through the Holy Spirit's work, not to oppose this message, but then to preach it. Right? Not to be a persecutor, but a proclaimer of the gospel and the church. That's hugely significant. And Paul even says that his example serves to show people how much God loves sinners, that God actually died for his own enemies. Because Paul's like, I was one, and.
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A
He says, I'm the foremost of all sinners.
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B
Yeah, yeah.
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A
This is beautiful. And if you'd like to look this up as you go through the scriptures, Acts chapter 9 is where the scene actually happens to St. Paul in Acts 22 and 26, where Paul retells the story of his conversion within the. With the book of Acts, along with what Dr. Prothero mentioned of the different bits and pieces that come out of his own self reflection on his conversion through his letters. I want to go back to Acts of the Apostles and where we first meet Paul. So you've gathered us. You gathered some details for us that we get from bits and pieces from Acts and some of his letters. His name, Saul, is of the tribe of Benjamin. He's a Pharisee. He's the. You know, receives the best education you could. Gamaliel was kind of a famous teacher, rabbi at the time, and he sat at his feet as a student. And he disagrees with his master on at least this point where Gamaliel said, when asked, what do we do about these Christians? They're rising and they're growing. What should we do with it? And he says, this great principle of if it's of the Holy Spirit, it will grow and thrive. If it's not of the Holy Spirit, it's going to die. And Saul doesn't seem to agree with that in the principle. He's saying, no, we should make this thing die. Where do we first meet Saul in Acts?
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B
We first meet him at the end of Acts chapter seven. So Acts chapter seven records the first martyrdom of a Christian, a believer. Stephen is stoned to death. He's been preaching the name of Jesus, and people are starting to confront him about this. People who reject Jesus. Right? And Stephen, finally, after giving a big speech to the people who are coming after him, looks up and he says, I can see the Son of man, Jesus, seated at the right hand of the Father. And then at that point, they say, no, you just said that he's like God, that he's Exalted, right next to God. And this is the guy that we all said was cursed, so you have to die. And so they stone him to death. And it says. I'm looking at Acts, chapter seven right now. It says. So they rushed together, cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses, right? So the people who are there laid down their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul. And as they were all stoning Stephen, he called out, lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And falling on his knees, he cried out in a loud voice, lord, do not hold this sin against them. And when he said this, he fell asleep. And Saul approved of his execution. So Saul doesn't stone Stephen, but he's there smiling and holding people's coats while they do it.
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A
Is there some significance to that, the holding the coats?
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B
Not particularly that I know of at the moment.
- [11:03]
A
Sure, sure. No, I didn't know, because as you're reading it, it struck me. And what came to mind was maybe the Saul, when he's elected king in the Old Testament, he's among the baggage, kind of holding the cloaks of people. I didn't know if there was some echo there or. So he's not actually picking up the rocks, but he's there saying, I'm okay with this.
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B
Yeah, he's there. He's enabling it and approving it. And it's quite significant that you see that Saul is right there. And yet Stephen is praying for the ones who are persecuting him and killing him. This is why, if you go to Rome, The Cathedral of St Paul, outside the walls, there's a little chapel to St Stephen there.
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A
There is, yes.
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B
And we always need to remember the power of intercession. When we think about the amazing conversion of St. Paul is also remember St. Stephen, that Stephen was praying, right, that God would have mercy on all the people who killed him.
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A
So we have a conversion of St. Paul because of the prayers of St. Stephen.
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B
That's right.
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A
And I love that it's brought out liturgically in The Basilica of St. Paul where St. Paul is buried, that there is that statue in the Little Chapel of St. Stephen. You know, as we're talking, too, what strikes me is we're celebrating this feast day on January 25, liturgically in the calendar. And we began the liturgical year with the first Sunday of Advent. So the beginning of December, and December 26th is the feast day of St. Stephen. So it's the very first feast day that we celebrate after the birth of Christ. So a month ago, we were celebrating St Stephen and his birth into eternal life. And then now, a month later, we're celebrating the conversion of St. Paul. Then you made that connection of December 26th being St. Stephen, January 25th being the conversion of St. Paul. The church puts those two together for us.
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B
Yeah, that's right. That's beautiful. I hadn't thought about the timing.
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A
Yeah. You know, just as we're talking, this is. This is striking me. Yeah. So we've thought these things out as a church.
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B
That's right.
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A
A great tradition.
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B
Yeah. And all of the church's teachers and professors really spend their lives catching up.
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A
Right, right.
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B
We only spend so much of our time finding out new things. We're mostly going like, oh, yeah, this is wild. This is amazing.
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A
The church is wonderful.
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B
We've had 2,000 years of this. It's beautiful. So Saul is there approving of his execution. And then Luke says that Saul is ravaging the church, that Saul is going from house to house to try to arrest believers in Jesus. And people who are preaching that Jesus is the one in whom God's resurrection has come and the new life has come, that Jesus is the Messiah. He wants this impiety stopped. Right. Thinks that this is all an affront to God and blasphemy. And then one day, he's on the road to Damascus.
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A
What happens? Well, he's piecing together, like Acts 9, 22, 26.
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B
So he has a vision. So Acts 9, we'll tell you about it. And as Ben said, Acts 22 and 26 have sort of moments where Paul retells it himself, but he's going with some other people toward Damascus to persecute the church there. And then suddenly he sees a blinding light. He falls down. It says he fell to the ground. So that might mean a lot of art sort of depicts him on a horse, like he falls off a horse. But it might also just mean that he is walking and falls down to his knees. But he sees a vision of the Lord Jesus. He fills this out in some of his other descriptions of it. In Acts 22 and 26, where he says, I saw the Lord. He sees a vision of the Lord Jesus. And where is he seated? At the right hand of the Father on the clouds of heaven. That's exactly what Stephen said.
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A
That's where Stephen said he was.
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B
Yeah.
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A
That's where Jesus said he would be at his trial.
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B
Exactly. That's when the high priest decides that Jesus needs to die, is when Jesus says, you'll see the Son of Man on the clouds of heaven, sitting at the right hand of the father. Stephen saw the same thing, and Paul said, yeah, kill him. And now Paul sees the same thing. And Jesus speaks and calls him by his name, Saul. Saul, why do you persecute me? And he says, who are you, Lord? And he says, I am Jesus, whom you're persecuting. And this moment is huge for Paul. He finds out a couple of things. Number one, he finds out about Jesus. That Jesus is the exalted Lord. Jesus is exactly what the Christians have been saying that he is Jesus is the fulfillment of what Paul was expecting. The resurrection of the dead being brought to the world, the Messiah coming. Jesus is that. And so now all of a sudden, he's going to have to change how he acts. Right?
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A
Right.
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B
But he also, remember, he's not just been saying that Jesus as an idea is a bad idea. He's also been persecuting believers. Jesus says, why do you persecute me?
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A
Right. But he never met the historical Jesus while he was living, so it must mean something more.
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B
Yeah, but Paul knows Jesus in his church, and he's been persecuting him in the persons of his body on earth. And so Paul suddenly has an understanding not just of who Jesus is, but then also that Jesus and the church are one. And that what you do to Jesus, what you do to the least of these my brothers, as Jesus says, you've done to me. And so. So then Paul sort of is struck with blindness and he is told to go to a particular person and to go be baptized. And Jesus comes to talk to this person and the guy says, you want me to go baptize?
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A
Are you sure this guy?
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B
Yeah, you want to go baptize? You want to go meet him? He's trying to throw us all in jail.
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A
I love. He's like, do you know who this is? Like, as if God did not know who it was.
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B
Yeah, exactly.
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A
I just called him.
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B
Yes, this man in Damascus named Ananias. And he says, jesus, are you sure about this? Do you know who this guy is? Jesus says, yes. And this is really key because this sets off the whole rest of Paul's life. Jesus says, yes, baptize him, for he is. This is Acts, chapter 9, verses 15 and 16. Go baptize him. He's a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles, the non Jews and Kings and the sons of Israel. For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name. And if you follow all the rest of the letters of Paul and the rest of the ministry of Paul, as is recorded in Acts, you'll see all of this happen. Paul talks to kings, he appeals to Caesar. He's going to go talk to that big dog in Rome and make a defense of his gospel. He's going to suffer repeatedly because Roman leaders won't like him and will be confused and they'll beat him. Some in the synagogues who don't believe in Jesus will treat him the same way he used to treat Christians and will beat him, strike him with rods, whip him with a lash. He's going to be shipwrecked while he's being a missionary. He's going to end up in jail. He's going to get stoned and left for dead. And yet all throughout it, right, he is going to be preaching and proclaiming Jesus in his body, with his words, with everything that he does, and always being united to the church. So he's always going to be moving on with the same message that he received there at that moment of conversion, that Jesus is Lord, that in him we have life and resurrection and forgiveness of sins, and that the Church, all of his body, all of the people who believe and are baptized are his body. He's always going to be suffering for them, suffering for the Lord completely. And so this is why we celebrate his conversion, because this is the moment we celebrate his martyrdom as well. But this is a moment that the church learns from both in how much God loves even his persecutors and wants them to be saved. We learned about the power of intercession, about St. Stephen. And we get to see the beginnings of the ministry of somebody who wrote like a large part of the New Testament.
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A
So many letters, right?
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B
All kicked off from this one moment, right, where he turns to the Lord in the complete way and perfect way by following Jesus.
- [19:26]
A
Well, thank you, Jim, for teaching us about the significance of this great feast day that we celebrate the conversion of St. Paul. And our conversion may not look the same. We might have blinding lights, voices from heavens, but the key to St. Paul's conversion, as Dr. Prothero told us, is his encounter with the risen Lord. And we encounter the risen Lord through His word, through his sacraments, through the liturgy of the church. And I want to encourage you. There's a resource that's on Formed. It's Pope Benedict XVI has some several Wednesday audiences for the year of St. Paul that he declared and they're being put together in a book and it's an audiobook that's on formed. Just St. Paul search St. Paul informed and it's an audiobook of the Wednesday audiences reflecting on these different aspects that we were able to hint at. But there's so much more to this great saint. So thank you for joining us. Thank you for your support through the Mission Circle. Your monthly donations help us do shows like this and have conversations about great saints and great feast days of the church. May the good Lord bless and keep.