Houdini's Detective and her 1500 Dead Husbands (Part 2)

Summary

Cautionary Tales with Tim Harford
Episode: Houdini's Detective and her 1500 Dead Husbands (Part 2)
Release Date: March 21, 2025

In this riveting second installment of a three-part series, Tim Harford delves deep into the intriguing world of Harry Houdini and his relentless pursuit to expose fraudulent mediums. Through meticulous storytelling, Harford unfolds the dramatic interplay between skepticism, deception, and the quest for truth in the early 20th century.

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1. The Unveiling of Deception

The episode opens with the story of Rose Mackenberg, a young widow who encounters Herman Parker, a prominent spiritualist medium in Chicago. Desperate to communicate with her deceased husband, Rose pays Parker for his services. However, Parker’s guidance leads Rose to a dubious investment in the Wilcox Transportation Company, revealing the medium's ulterior motives.

[01:28] Rose Mackenberg: "He thinks he is leaving us now."

Through Rose’s investigation, it becomes evident that Parker's investment advice is a facade for financial exploitation, prompting Rose to seek assistance from none other than the legendary Harry Houdini.

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2. Enter Harry Houdini: The Skeptic and Entertainer

Harry Houdini, renowned for his escape acts and magic performances, also harbored a passionate skepticism towards spiritualism. Rose approaches Houdini not just for personal advice but to become his chief investigator against fraudulent mediums.

[07:19] Harry Houdini: "There are only two kinds of mediums, those who are mental degenerates and those who are deliberate cheats and frauds. I have never seen one genuine medium."

Houdini’s disdain for spiritualists stems from his personal experiences, including a strained friendship with Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, an ardent believer in spiritualism. Their fallout highlights the tension between belief and skepticism that drives Houdini’s crusade.

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3. The Copeland Bloom Bill: Legislative Battle Against Fraudulent Mediums

Houdini and Rose take their mission to Washington, D.C., aiming to pass the Copeland Bloom Bill—a legislative effort to ban fraudulent medium practices. The hearings are a battleground where Houdini showcases the deceit behind spiritualist claims.

[09:25] Harry Houdini: "No, it is not."
[09:27] Harry Houdini: "How can you tell anything from the lines of the hand?"

Houdini challenges the credibility of mediums, arguing that their supposed abilities are mere tricks. His confrontational approach resonates with some congressmen while alienating others more credulous of spiritualism.

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4. Rose Mackenberg: The Determined Investigator

Rose’s role is pivotal as she employs disguises and undercover tactics to gather evidence against fraudulent mediums. Her meticulous methods include adopting various personas to infiltrate spiritualist gatherings.

[19:21] Rose Mackenberg: "I said, I'd remove the powder from my face, plaster my hair down in the most unbecoming fashion, probably put on glasses and sally forth."

In one notable instance, Rose exposes a trumpet medium by applying lampblack to the instrument, revealing the trickery behind the medium’s supposed supernatural performances.

[12:50] Harry Houdini: "It takes a flimflammer to catch a flimflammer."

Her dedication not only aids Houdini’s cause but also underscores the broader implications of fraud and deception in the realm of spiritualism.

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5. Congressional Hearings: Chaos and Revelation

The congressional hearings are depicted as a dramatic clash between skeptics and believers. Houdini employs live demonstrations to debunk mediumistic claims, resulting in a tumultuous environment.

[31:35] Harry Houdini: "Ladies and gentlemen, this is a trick. It is performed by mediums as a proof that they consult with the dead. It is the easiest thing in the world to make someone believe whose heart is yearning to believe."

The session descends into chaos as mediums like Madame Marcia and Mrs. Coates attempt to defend their practices, leading to physical altercations and uproarious scenes. Houdini’s theatrical exposure of their frauds garners significant media attention, amplifying his message to the public.

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6. The Aftermath and Legislative Shortcomings

Despite Houdini’s efforts and the sensational hearings, the Copeland Bloom Bill fails to pass. The episode critiques the limitations of legislative measures in effectively curbing fraudulent practices.

[35:07] Narrator: "The wording of the bill was hard to parse. You could read it as criminalizing a doctor giving a prognosis, or the United States Weather Bureau providing a weather forecast."

Harford highlights the inherent challenges in legislating against deceptive practices, especially when definitions are vague and enforcement becomes problematic. The discussion extends to a 2012 analysis, reinforcing the notion that legal frameworks often fall short in addressing the nuanced nature of fraud and belief.

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7. Legacy of Houdini and Rose Mackenberg

The narrative concludes by reflecting on the enduring impact of Houdini and Rose’s endeavors. While the bill didn’t pass, their relentless pursuit fostered greater public skepticism toward spiritualism and fraudulent mediums.

[41:25] Harry Houdini: "You'll be dead."
[41:30] Narrator: "Houdini would indeed be dead by November at the age of just 52."

Rose Mackenberg continued her investigative work for decades, humorously noting her encounters with 1,500 deceased husbands—all claiming happiness in the afterlife, subtly mocking the lack of genuine supernatural communication.

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Conclusion: A Cautionary Tale of Skepticism and Deception

Tim Harford masterfully intertwines historical anecdotes with critical analysis, presenting a compelling cautionary tale about the intersection of belief, deception, and the pursuit of truth. Through Houdini and Rose’s stories, listeners are reminded of the importance of skepticism and the enduring challenge of safeguarding the vulnerable from exploitation.

For those intrigued by these historical insights and the intricate dance between magic and reality, "Houdini's Detective and her 1500 Dead Husbands (Part 2)" offers a captivating exploration of human folly and the relentless quest for truth.

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Notable Quotes:

• Harry Houdini [07:19]: "There are only two kinds of mediums, those who are mental degenerates and those who are deliberate cheats and frauds. I have never seen one genuine medium."

• Rose Mackenberg [19:21]: "I said, I'd remove the powder from my face, plaster my hair down in the most unbecoming fashion, probably put on glasses and sally forth."

• Harry Houdini [31:35]: "Ladies and gentlemen, this is a trick. It is performed by mediums as a proof that they consult with the dead. It is the easiest thing in the world to make someone believe whose heart is yearning to believe."

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Credits:

Cautionary Tales is written by Tim Harford with Andrew Wright, Alice Fiennes, and Ryan Dilley. Produced by Georgia Mills and Marilyn Rust, with sound design by Pascal Wise and Carlos San Juan. Recorded at Wardour Studios in London by Tom Berry. The show features voice talents Melanie Guttridge, Stella Harford, Oliver Hembrough, Sarah Jupp, Masaya Munro, Jamal Westman, and Rufus Wright. Produced by Pushkin Industries.

Transcript

[Narrator]

Foreign.

[Ben Walter]

The Unshakables Podcast is kicking off season two with an episode you won't want to miss. Join host Ben Walter, CEO of Chase for Business, as he welcomes a very special guest, Chairman and CEO of JP Morgan Chase, Jamie Dimon. Hear about the challenges facing small businesses and some of the oh moments Jamie has overcome. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Chase Mobile App is available for select mobile devices. Message and data rates may apply. J.P. morgan Chase Bank NA Member FDIC Copyright 2025 J.P. morgan Chase & Co.

[Narrator]

This is the second episode of a three part series. You can enjoy it on a standalone basis, but if you've not heard episode one, you might prefer to listen to it first. The tearful young widow in a cheap looking dress was desperate to get in touch with her recently deceased husband. She explained to Mr. Herman Parker, one of the leading spiritualist mediums in Chicago. Mr. Parker could help with that. For a fee of course. He settled down, closed his eyes and went into a trance.

[Herman Parker]

I am in touch with a man. Yes, it's your husband. He says he is happy but misses you. I think he is leaving us now.

[Narrator]

Parker opened his eyes.

[Rose Mackenberg]

He's gone. Oh, but I did so want to ask him what to do with the money.

[Narrator]

The money? Yes, the widow explained. The settlement for his death. $3,000. Perhaps I can get your husband back, said Mr. Parker. He closed his eyes again.

[Herman Parker]

I have your husband again. His spirit is standing by your side. He says to invest the money. He is trying to give me the name of the company he wants you to invest in.

[Narrator]

Parker screwed up his face in concentration, then reached for a pen and scribbled a name.

[Herman Parker]

The Wilcox Transportation Company. Your husband says it is a very sound company.

[Rose Mackenberg]

I don't know how to thank you.

[Narrator]

Said the young woman, wiping a tear from her eye. She paid Mr. Parker the fee for his consultation, went back to her hotel and placed a long distance telephone call to her boss, Harry Houdini. For this young woman was no naive Chicago widow with a chunky death settlement to invest. She was New York bachelor girl Rose Mackenberg, Houdini's chief investigator of dodgy mediums. Harry Houdini's sellout shows now consisted of three acts, some magic, some of the escapes that made his name, and a new final section called do the Dead Come Back? Where Harry would name and shame Fraudulent local mediums on the stage of the Princess Theater in Chicago, Harry invited Rose to continue the story of Herman Parker. She looked into the Wilcox Transportation Company. It was of course both worthless and run by an associate of Mr. Parker. But it couldn't just be Rose's word against Herman Parker's. They needed to gather hard evidence. Rose told the theatre, I took out.

[Rose Mackenberg]

My checkbook and I said, I'm afraid I can't write very well. Mr. Parker, could you help me fill out the check?

[Narrator]

The audience loved it. Billboard called this section of Houdini's show as laughter provoking as it was educational. Chicago's police also enjoyed this particular story. They took Mr. Parker and Mr. Wilcox to court and got them both convicted. But did the laws in America do enough to protect the vulnerable, bereaved clients of cynical mediums? Harry Houdini was not convinced that they did. And so, in early 1926, Harry and Rose went to Washington. I'm Tim Harford and you're listening to Cautionary Tales. The committee room in Washington, D.C. was packed. Three hundred people crammed the seats, the isles and anywhere else they could find. Some were simply there to enjoy what promised to be an entertaining spectacle. The great showman Houdini was going to give evidence in support of the Copeland Bloom bill. Others there were spiritualists and mediums whose livelihood and liberty were under threat if the bill made it onto the statute books. The Congressman called the session to order. What is your full name? He asked.

[Harry Houdini]

My name is Harry Houdini.

[Narrator]

And what is your business?

[Harry Houdini]

I am an author. I am a psychic investigator for the scientific magazines of the world. And then I am a mysterious entertainer.

[Narrator]

It's a revealing answer about how Harry Houdini saw himself in his 52nd year. The famous escape artist put mysterious entertainer only third on his list of occupations. Top of that list was author. Houdini was proud of his book A Magician among the Spirits, partly a history of the spiritualist movement and partly an account of his own dealings with spiritualists, such as the seance at which Lady Doyle, wife of the author Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, had written a lengthy letter that purported to come from Harry's mother. Nearly four years had passed since that seance, and Houdini had become more and more strident in his attacks on those who claimed to be able to communicate with the dead. In his experience, he told the assembled.

[Harry Houdini]

Congressman, there are only two kinds of mediums, those who are mental degenerates and those who are deliberate cheats and frauds. I have never seen one genuine medium.

[Narrator]

But Houdini didn't just want to warn people off spending their hard earned money on messages purportedly from the spirit world. No, he thought it should be illegal to sell those messages at all. That's what the Copeland Bloom Bill set out to do. Cities around America had different laws on mediumship. The laws in Washington, D.C. were among the most permissive. They said that mediums, clairvoyants, soothsayers, fortune tellers, or palmists conducting business for profit shall pay a license tax of $25 per annum. And to get a licence they simply had to apply to the Superintendent of licenses with letters from 10 credible residents that he or she is of good character. Not exactly difficult, as Houdini pointed out. The problem was that having a license seemed to imply that the government was vouching for your skills. Fortune tellers could proudly display their official certificate in much the same way as properly qualified lawyers or doctors. The Copeland Bloom Bill would go to the other extreme. It would ban altogether pretending to tell fortunes or unite the separated, among other things. Some of the congressional representatives at the hearing shared Houdini's skepticism about clairvoyance, soothsayers and so on. Others were more credulous. But palmistry is a science, said one representative. Isn't it?

[Harry Houdini]

No, it is not.

[Narrator]

Houdini was appalled.

[Harry Houdini]

How can you tell anything from the lines of the hand? You can tell whether a man is a bricklayer or a bank clerk, the congressman continued.

[Narrator]

I understand astrology can bring out facts that have been proven to be true. Houdini tried to explain to him why. You should never be too impressed at discovering that an astrologist has predicted something accurately.

[Harry Houdini]

Where they make so many guesses, sometimes they make a good guess. If you guess often enough, you're bound to guess something, right?

[Narrator]

The congressman moved on to spiritualism. If it really is such an outrageous fake and fraud, why would that not have been discovered by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, who, after all, is an outstanding authority?

[Harry Houdini]

Houdini snapped back, Conan Doyle is not an outstanding authority.

[Narrator]

He is accepted as one of the best. The committee member said.

[Harry Houdini]

No, he is not accepted as one of the best. He is one of the greatest dupes.

[Narrator]

The years long friendship between Houdini and Conan Doyle had become increasingly strained since that seance with Doyle's wife. For a while, Houdini still optimistically addressed his letters. My dear Sir Arthur Conan Doyle became more stiff. Our relations are suddenly curious, he wrote to Houdini.

[Herman Parker]

For so long as you attack what I know from experience to be true, I have no alternative but to attack you in return. How long a private friendship can survive such an ordeal, I do not know.

[Narrator]

You can see the problem. Doyle's wife is a medium, and there's Houdini Breezily telling a congressional committee that every medium he's encountered is either a deliberate fraud or a mental degenerate. But there's another reason why Sir Arthur and Houdini had fallen out, and it's to do with the second occupation Houdini listed, psychic investigator, for the scientific magazines of the world. The Scientific American magazine put up a cash prize for anyone who could conclusively demonstrate psychic phenomena to their panel of eminent academic investigators. The panel was on the cusp of awarding the prize to a friend of Conan Doyle, a medium called Marjorie, the wife of a Boston surgeon at whose seances the spirits rang bells and shook tambourines. The academics were stumped. If this was all a trick, they couldn't figure out how Marjorie was doing it. So it must be spirits. But when the magazine sent Houdini, he watched closely and understood it was sleight of hand. Highly accomplished and hard to detect, but sleight of hand nonetheless. Academics aren't smart enough for this kind of investigation, Houdini explained.

[Harry Houdini]

It takes a flim flammer to catch a flim flammer.

[Narrator]

Because of Houdini, Marjorie did not get the cash prize. But for Sir Arthur, it wasn't about the money. The approval of Scientific American would have been a major boost for the spiritualist religion. Sir Arthur was furious with Houdini. He was certain that Marjorie had genuine supernatural powers, and Houdini's expose was unfair. For that matter, he was sure Houdini had supernatural powers and was only pretending that he didn't. When journalists asked Houdini about Conan Doyle, he didn't hold back. Conan Doyle is getting a bit senile. He's 15 years Houdini's senior. The old man is easily bamboozled. It's such a pity.

[Harry Houdini]

Houdini says Doyle thinks he is a messiah who has come to save mankind. Instead of that, he is misleading the public and his teachings are a menace to sanity and health.

[Narrator]

Houdini was on a mission. He now saw exposing frauds like Marjorie as his sacred duty. And he couldn't do it alone. Cautionary Tales will be back after the break.

[Ben Walter]

The Unshakables podcast is back for season two, and it's kicking off with an episode you absolutely won't want to miss. Host of the show and CEO of Chase for Business, Ben Walter welcomes a very special guest, chairman and CEO of JP Morgan Chase, Jamie Dimon. One of the world's most respected financial thought leaders, Jamie will connect the dots between the current challenges and opportunities facing small business owners and the broader financial landscape. And of course, it wouldn't be an episode of the Unshakables if Jamie didn't share some of the, oh, moments that he overcame to forge ahead in his own career. You can find this must hear episode and the rest of the upcoming season of the Unshakables wherever you get your podcasts. Learn [e-mail] podcast chase mobile app is available for select mobile devices. Message and data rates may apply JP Morgan Chase Bank NA Member FDIC Copyright 2025 JP Morgan Chase & Co.

[Narrator]

Rose Mackenberg was born in Brooklyn to Russian immigrant parents. She started out as a stenographer at a law firm, then became a private detective. She'd just turned 30 when she took on a new client who wanted her to investigate a medium. The medium had given him bad investment advice. Rose didn't know much about mediums, but but she did know someone who knew Harry Houdini. She asked the mutual friend to set up a meeting so she could ask for Houdini's advice on how to proceed. Coincidentally, Rose had just spent an evening at a seance herself, invited by a friend who said it would be good, clean fun. It was certainly fun. Rose told Houdini the story. The medium, an attractive young woman, was tied to a chair. Her assistant switched out the lights and in the darkness she called on the spirits to play various musical instruments, culminating with a big bass drum in the middle of the room. Her assistant turned on the light to reveal that the medium was still tied to the chair and the big bass drum was beating all on its own. Rose was curious about how it was done. She told Houdini, so she went back a few nights later in disguise. When the lights were turned out, she quietly left her seat and crawled towards the drum, stretching out her fingers in the darkness until they encountered a child. Whoever it was froze, so Rose felt them out further. No, not a child. A dwarf. A very small dwarf. Rose crawled back to her seat, her curiosity satisfied when the lights came on and the drum was sounding. This time she knew what it was the dwarf beating the drum from inside. Houdini listened to the story, gave Rose the advice she wanted, then offered her a job. Rose was tough, smart, and, crucially for Houdini, open minded. She had no particular views either way on whether it might be possible to make contact with the dead. If she did happen to find a medium who was genuine, she'd let Houdini know. As Rose later wrote, Harry Houdini, from.

[Rose Mackenberg]

The bottom of his fine soul, wanted passionately to believe in spiritualism. He would have sacrificed A fortune. If he had ever been able to convince himself that there was actually such a thing as communication with the dead, his relentless attempts to unmask fraudulent mediums were devoid of malice. He sought but one thing. Truth.

[Narrator]

Houdini sent Rose around the country trying to find that elusive genuine medium while gathering material for his shows. When she got to a new city, she'd first hang out in department stores to observe the local fashions. She'd decide on a Persona, the rustic schoolteacher, perhaps the credulous servant girl or the small town matron. She'd purchase an appropriate outfit. Back at her hotel, she wrote, I'd.

[Rose Mackenberg]

Remove the powder from my face, plaster my hair down in the most unbecoming fashion, probably put on glasses and sally forth.

[Narrator]

Sometimes Houdini himself would turn up for the fun of unmasking the fraud. In Cleveland, Ohio, Houdini went to a seance at a famous trumpet medium's house in a blonde wig and thick glasses, having given his name as Mr. F. Rord. He had with him a. A photographer, a prosecutor, a flashlight and lamp black, a pigment used in boot polish. Trumpet mediums claimed that the spirits move the trumpet around in the darkness and whisper their messages through it. When the lights went out, Houdini surreptitiously smeared lampblack on the trumpet. Then, mid seance turned on his flashlight. The photographer caught the medium black handed. The prosecutor told him, you're obtaining money under false pretenses. The medium was outraged. In 40 years, he protested, I have never been exposed. Well, said Houdini, whipping off his blonde wig, you are now. More often, Rose would gather evidence herself, sometimes at grave personal risk. She consulted a man about 60 years old who ran his own spiritualist church. She casually mentioned that she was interested in establishing a church herself. Her husband had left her plenty of money. It was a way to prove how easy it could be to set yourself up as an authority in the spiritualist religion. The man leaned back in his chair, closed his eyes and began to breathe heavily.

[Herman Parker]

Your husband is right near you. He loves you so. Your husband tells me to tell you to go into this work. You'll be quite successful.

[Rose Mackenberg]

Can you ask my husband where I would find someone to assist me?

[Narrator]

The man began to speak in a changed voice.

[Herman Parker]

Ask the medium. The medium is very good. He can give you a charter for your church. He can cure you of physically. You have to be purified before you can do this work.

[Narrator]

The man stopped speaking, breathed heavily for a while longer, then rubbed his eyes and spoke in his normal voice again.

[Herman Parker]

What Did I say?

[Narrator]

Rose repeated the man's words back to him. Yes, he agreed thoughtfully. He could do that. He went into another room and returned with a framed charter for a branch of his church, the First Church of the Divine Light. It would cost Rose $5 to be ordained, but as the spirits rightly said, she would first need to be purified. And yes, he could purify her now.

[Herman Parker]

Have you any corsets on the steel will interfere in the purification process.

[Narrator]

Rose did not have any corsets on. She confirmed.

[Herman Parker]

I must get close to the body.

[Narrator]

He knelt in front of Rose's chair, made the sign of the cross over her face, then began to rub her ankles and her thighs.

[Herman Parker]

Lord, please help me to show this new worker the light.

[Narrator]

He put his hand on her breast.

[Herman Parker]

Dear God, bring this worker closer to me.

[Narrator]

Rose stood up, the man still on his knees.

[Rose Mackenberg]

I feel purified already. Thank you. $5. Did you say?

[Narrator]

Rose paid her money and made her escape from the medium's house, clutching her framed charter. She was now the Reverend Florence B. Rush of the First Church of the Divine Light. When Houdini went to Washington to give evidence for the Copeland Bloom bill, he sent Rose ahead as always. Suitably disguised, she went to visit two of Washington's most prominent mediums. Houdini called Rose Mackenberg to testify in front of the Congressional committee. What is your full name?

[Rose Mackenberg]

Reverend Rose mackinburgh.

[Narrator]

Rose explained that she's not just any old reverend. No. She's been ordained six times as a spiritualist minister under various silly names. She has full rights to baptise, to marry and to bury. She explained, too, that the previous day she had made appointments to see two of the best known Washington mediums, Madame Marcia and Mrs. Coates.

[Harry Houdini]

Why are you dressed differently from what you are today?

[Narrator]

Houdini asked.

[Rose Mackenberg]

Entirely different.

[Narrator]

Madame Marcia and Mrs. Coates were both in the committee room. They got up and started to shout.

[Rose Mackenberg]

I demand the right to defend myself.

[Narrator]

Rose related the typically vague readings she received. Mrs. Coates, she says, told her, the.

[Rose Mackenberg]

Spirits tell me that you are going to take a trip very shortly and going to meet some person and be placed to in a different environment.

[Narrator]

Could she be more specific? No. As for Madame Marcia, she said a spirit was trying to communicate with her by the name of Juf. Or maybe. Anyway, said Rose, I then engaged them in conversation about these hearings and this bill. The two mediums, both heavily built women, edged menacingly closer to Rose.

[Harry Houdini]

I insist that Mrs. Coates keep away from the witness.

[Narrator]

Houdini yelled. He turned back to Rose, what did she tell you?

[Rose Mackenberg]

I object.

[Narrator]

Shouted Mrs. Coates. The medium said, rose told me she thinks the bill because most senators visit mediums, she named four senators who visit her.

[Rose Mackenberg]

That's a lie. She named Senator Capper, Senator Watson, Senator Dill, and Senator Fletcher. Then she said, I know for a fact there have been spiritual seances held at the White House with President Coolidge and his family.

[Narrator]

The chairman vainly tried to restore order. A man barged through the crowd to lunge at Houdini, shouting, I'll break your nose. A congressman threw himself in the way the police were called. The newspapers loved it. Today's session said the New York Times came near, winding up in a free for all fist fight. The Chicago Daily Tribune reported that if looks could kill, Mrs. Coates and Madame Marcia would have destroyed the existence of Ms. Rose Mackenberg.

[Rose Mackenberg]

Rose herself later recalled, ordinarily, I dislike scenes. But this pandemonium of unleashed hysteria was not only volcanically dramatic, but extremely funny.

[Narrator]

Mrs. Coates finally got her turn on the witness stand. She claimed that Rose's account of their meeting was all wrong, that actually she hadn't been fooled by Rose's disguise, and that the message she'd passed on from the spirits was this.

[Rose Mackenberg]

You were doing work that is killing you. If you don't stop it, you will not live 18 months.

[Narrator]

Cautionary tales will be back after the break.

[Ben Walter]

The Unshakeables podcast is back for season two, and it's kicking off with an episode you absolutely won't want to miss. Host of the show and CEO of Chase for Business, Ben Walter welcomes a very special Guest, chairman and CEO of JPMorgan Chase, Jamie Dimon. One of the world's most respected financial thought leaders, Jamie will connect the dots between the current challenges and opportunities facing small small business owners and the broader financial landscape. And of course, it wouldn't be an episode of the Unshakables if Jamie didn't share some of the, oh, moments that he overcame to forge ahead in his own career. You can find this must hear episode and the rest of the upcoming season of the Unshakables wherever you get your podcasts. Learn [e-mail] podcast chase mobile app is available for select mobile devices. Message and data rate may apply. J.P. morgan Chase Bank NA Member FDIC Copyright 2025 J.P. morgan Chase & Co.

[Narrator]

The congressional hearings on the Copeland Bloom Bill were a total waste of time if you were hoping they might shed some light on the wisest way to legislate about mediums and fortune tellers. But if all you wanted was circus entertainment. They were great. Houdini theatrically brandished $10,000 in cash. Hundreds of thousands in today's money. I'll give that to any medium, he says, who can prove they get knowledge by supernatural means. Tell me what nickname my father called me when I was a boy or here. He reaches in his pocket and brings out a crumpled telegram. Tell me what this telegram, says the medium. Madame Marcia, yells from the audience.

[Rose Mackenberg]

That money belongs to me. I predicted the election of president Harding.

[Narrator]

Wait a minute, says a congressman. I predicted that, too. I see the matter is in dispute, adds another. Why don't I hold the 10,000 until it's settled? Houdini performed tricks to show how easily he could replicate the ways mediums claimed to be getting messages from the spirits. Speaking through a trumpet, for example.

[Harry Houdini]

Now put it to your ear, and you have got to have faith.

[Narrator]

A congressman puts the trumpet to his ear.

[Harry Houdini]

If you hear a voice, you speak to it. You say, thank you, kind spirit. That's the rigmarole they go through.

[Narrator]

After making the congressman hear a voice, Houdini shows them a trick with writing on slates. He gets the congressman to examine two blank slates, then ties them together with a handkerchief. He gives another congressman a card and tells him to drop it in a dictionary. As Houdini rifles through the pages, There.

[Harry Houdini]

Is no human being living who can tell me the number of the page in which that card has been dropped. Spirits, I want you to please give me the number of the page. Spirits, are you present? If you are here, pull my right ear.

[Narrator]

Houdini unwraps the handkerchief from around the slates on which are written two words. Are those the first and last words on the dictionary page where the card was dropped? They are.

[Harry Houdini]

Ladies and gentlemen, this is a trick. It is performed by mediums as a proof that they consult with the dead. It is the easiest thing in the world to make someone believe whose heart is yearning to believe.

[Narrator]

It's the 1920s, the aftermath of the first world war, and the terrible flu of 1918. The world had no shortage of bereaved relatives whose hearts were yearning to believe. Houdini tells the congressman the story of how he once performed a slate writing trick for president Roosevelt. And Roosevelt had later asked whether it was genuinely a message from the spirits.

[Harry Houdini]

When a great mind like Roosevelt asks that there must be protection for those who cannot protect themselves.

[Narrator]

But was the Copeland Bloom bill the right way to provide that protection? When the opponents of the bill gave their evidence, there were moments of levity. Mrs. Coates dramatically explained that through the power of his own negative thoughts, Houdini is destroying himself. Then snapped at a journalist who burst out laughing. Madame Marcia engaged a congressman in earnest discussion about what it means to have Saturn in Scorpio in the ascendancy. But there were more serious points, too.

[Rose Mackenberg]

Prophecy, spiritual guidance and advice are the very foundation of our religion. And to deny a spiritual minister the right to advise their followers is to curtail their privileges as ministers of their religion. It is a very delicate question, gentlemen.

[Narrator]

That hit home, as one congressman mused. It is mighty difficult to legislate about religion. Then how exactly do you define fortune telling? The wording of the bill was hard to parse. You could read it as criminalising a doctor giving a prognosis, or the United States Weather Bureau providing a weather forecast. And what about uniting the separated? What does that mean? If a divorce lawyer persuades her clients to give their marriage another chance, would she be guilty of uniting the separated by a strict construction of this law? Perhaps she would. After all the fun with trumpets and slates and Saturn in Scorpio, eventually an actual lawyer took to the stand to give evidence, although one suspicious congressman wanted to be sure he knew who they were speaking to. Are you a spiritualist? I am not, said the lawyer. Are you a palmist? I am not. You're just a lawyer. A mere lawyer. The mere lawyer explained that some clauses of the bill are hard to understand. Others might criminalise things nobody wants to criminalise. And others still were already covered by existing legislation on crimes such as fraud or obtaining money under false pretences. The Copeland Bloom Bill doesn't actually accomplish what it wants to accomplish, she said. But perhaps Senator Copeland and Congressman Bloom shouldn't feel too bad about that. In the century that's followed, plenty more legislators have found psychic phenomena a slippery thing to regulate. In 2012, the International Journal of Law in Context published a paper by scholars from the University of Westminster exploring why the uk, for example, had tried the Vagrancy act, the Fraud act, the Theft act, the Fraudulent Mediums act, the Trade Descriptions act and the Unfair Commercial Practice Regulations, all of them manifestly ineffective. Is paying to consult a medium a consumer transaction? An entertainment service? A religious experience? If a medium can't prove they're in touch with the dead, should the law care if they genuinely believe it? The article's authors reach a conclusion much like that of the mere lawyer. It seems unlikely that adequate legislation can be framed to deal with what is unknown or unprovable. But there's a bigger issue at play. Even when things are knowable or provable, there's only so much the law can do to shield people from their own gullibility. It's not illegal, for example, to sell useless alternative health products, although it might be illegal to market them with claims you can't back up. Many countries make banks refund customers who fall for some kinds of scam, but not all scams. The impulse behind the Copeland Bloom Bill, using the law to protect vulnerable people, is a noble one. But there comes a point when laws have to let the public make their own mistakes. Or, as one congressman summed it up to Houdini with an air of resignation, I completely agree with you about all this. But what's the use in us legislating? A fool and his money are soon parted and always will be. The Showman Houdini takes the stand in the committee room one last time to choreograph what Rose Mackenberg later describes as one of the most touching little domestic interludes I have ever seen.

[Harry Houdini]

My character has been assailed, says Houdini.

[Narrator]

It's true. One witness compared him to Judas. Someone else shouted anti Semitic slurs while trying to punch him in the nose. He's been called brutal, vile and crazy. He wants to defend himself.

[Harry Houdini]

There are no medals and ribbons on me. But when a girl will stick to a man for 32 years, it is a pretty good recommendation I would like to have as a witness here Mrs. Houdini.

[Narrator]

Houdini turns to his wife Bess.

[Harry Houdini]

Have I shown traces of being crazy? Unless it was about you?

[Narrator]

No.

[Harry Houdini]

Am I brutal to you or vile?

[Rose Mackenberg]

No.

[Harry Houdini]

Am I a good boy?

[Rose Mackenberg]

Yes.

[Harry Houdini]

Thank you, Mrs. Houdini.

[Narrator]

The Copeland Bloom Bill didn't make it into law. Perhaps that didn't matter. Houdini had got a blizzard of newspaper coverage out of the hearings. The people who read those articles, like the people who came to his shows, might thereby be made less foolish, less liable to be parted from their money by claims of supernatural abilities. As the hearings came to a close and Houdini prepared to leave, Madame Marcia came up to him.

[Rose Mackenberg]

You're a smart man, Mr. Houdini. But perhaps I can tell you something you don't know.

[Harry Houdini]

What's that, Madame Marcia?

[Rose Mackenberg]

When November comes around, you won't be here.

[Harry Houdini]

How's that?

[Rose Mackenberg]

You'll be dead.

[Narrator]

Now. Both Houdini and Rose Mackenberg had had their imminent demise foretold. Rose's work did not kill her. She went on to spend three more decades as an investigator of fraudulent mediums. Rose never married, but by the time she retired, she reckoned she'd been confidently put in touch with about 1500 dead husbands, all of whom assured her that they were blissfully happy on the other side. 15 dead husbands. Not a single one of them said he was lost without her. As Rose liked to joke, that's not entirely flattering. But Houdini? What was it that Houdini had told the committee? If an astrologer makes enough guesses, sometimes they'll guess something, right? Houdini would indeed be dead by November at the age of just 52. As we'll hear about next time in the third and final episode of our three part series. Newspaper articles written by Rose Mackenberg are collated in a book by Tony Wolf called Houdini's Girl Detective. For a full list of our sources, see the show [e-mail] Cautionary Tales is written by me, Tim Harford with Andrew Wright, Alice Fiennes and Ryan Dilley. It's produced by Georgia Mills and Marilyn Rust. The sound design and original music are the work of Pascal Wise. Additional sound design is by Carlos San Juan at Brain Audio. Ben Nadaff Haffrey edited the scripts. The show features the voice talents of Melanie Guttridge, Stella Harford, Oliver Hembrough, Sarah Jupp, Masaya Munro, Jamal Westman and Rufus Wright. The show also wouldn't have been possible without the work of Jacob Weisberg, Greta Cohn, Sarah Nix, Eric Sandler, Carrie Brodie, Christina Sullivan, Kira Posey and Owen Miller. Cautionary Tales is a production of Pushkin Industries. It's recorded at Wardour Studios in London by Tom Berry. If you like the show, please remember to share, rate and review. It really makes a difference to us. And if you want to hear the show ad free, sign up to Pushkin plus on the show page on Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin FM plus.