Curators and the Zeitgeist: Simon Castets and Courtney J. Martin

Summary

CHANEL Connects: Curators and the Zeitgeist with Simon Castets and Courtney J. Martin

Episode Release Date: August 6, 2024

In this compelling episode of CHANEL Connects, host Yana Peel delves into the intricate world of art curation with two esteemed guests: Simone Castei, co-founder of the 89 Project, and Courtney Martin, Executive Director of the Robert Rauschenberg Foundation. Set against the backdrop of the Venice Biennale’s 60th edition, the conversation explores the essence of curatorial practice, personal journeys within the art world, and the evolving landscape of contemporary art.

---

First Encounters with the Venice Biennale

The discussion begins with Simone and Courtney sharing their inaugural experiences at the Venice Biennale, highlighting the profound impact these events had on their careers and perspectives.

Courtney Martin reflects on her first Biennale:
"This is my first Biennale as well... [02:53]"

Simone Castei recounts her first visit at 17:
"I came in 2001 for the first time when I was 17, and it really knocked my socks off... [02:16]"

These early encounters ignited their passion for contemporary art, shaping their paths and deepening their commitment to the field.

---

Defining the Role of a Curator

A significant portion of the conversation centers on the multifaceted role of curators. Simone and Courtney emphasize the delicate balance between organizational prowess and creative vision required in curatorial work.

Courtney Martin elaborates:
"You have a sense of deep organizational skills, but you are also wildly creative at exactly the same time... [05:03]"

Simone Castei adds:
"The role is to accompany the artist and to be in the background and make sure that things are at the best of their possibility... [05:38]"

Their insights highlight curators as facilitators who bridge the gap between artists, artworks, and audiences, ensuring that artistic expressions are showcased effectively.

---

Collaborative Practices and Relationships

The synergy between Simone and Courtney is a testament to the collaborative nature of curatorial work. Their long-standing relationship, rooted in mutual respect and shared experiences, underscores the importance of teamwork in creating impactful exhibitions.

Courtney Martin shares the story of their partnership:
"And so when I met Simone, I could see it immediately... [07:23]"

They discuss how their collective efforts enhance their ability to curate, emphasizing that curatorial success is rarely a solo endeavor.

---

Approaching the Venice Biennale Theme

The duo discusses the ambitious theme for the current Biennale, "Foreigners Everywhere," and its implications for the art world.

Courtney Martin comments on the scope:
"The largest number of artists that have ever been included, and that's a big feat... [14:18]"

Simone Castei believes the theme offers a dynamic platform:
"It's going to be the most exciting... [15:15]"

They contemplate the challenges and opportunities presented by such an expansive and diverse exhibition, recognizing its potential to redefine artistic narratives.

---

Preparation and Anticipation

When asked about their preparation for the Biennale, both curators surprisingly reveal a minimalist approach, opting to engage with the event organically rather than through extensive prior reading.

Simone Castei states:
"No, you just want to be ready to absorb somehow, as a blank slate... [17:09]"

Courtney Martin concurs:
"Absolutely... [17:26]"

This approach allows them to experience the Biennale with fresh eyes, fostering genuine interactions and spontaneous insights.

---

The Significance of Awards

The conversation touches upon the role of prestigious awards like the Lions in the art community. While acknowledging their honor, Simone and Courtney view them more as retrospective markers rather than immediate indicators of artistic merit.

Simone Castei remarks:
"I think they're more important in retrospect... [17:28]"

Courtney Martin adds historical context:
"After 1968, the year that Bridget Reilly wins... [18:04]"

They discuss how awards can influence perceptions and highlight shifts within the art world.

---

Advice for Aspiring Curators

Offering guidance to the next generation, Simone and Courtney emphasize the importance of exploration and active engagement with artists.

Simone Castei advises:
"Go everywhere, see everything, and listen to what the artists have to say... [18:38]"

Courtney Martin humorously echoes this sentiment:
"No, don't listen to anything... [18:47]"

Their advice underscores the value of immersive learning and personal connections in building a successful curatorial career.

---

Venice Highlights: Art and Cuisine

Balancing professional insights with personal favorites, the curators share their must-visit spots in Venice, blending art appreciation with culinary delights.

Simone Castei recommends:
"I always try to go to Musee aux Corre for the unbelievable collection... [19:03]"

Courtney Martin complements:
"I went immediately to the academia to see Bellini and Titian and Tiepolo... [19:42]"

They also mention savoring local cuisine, with Courtney highlighting her affection for Cicchetti:
"I make time for sepi compliment... [19:54]"

These anecdotes provide listeners with a glimpse into the cultural tapestry of Venice beyond the Biennale.

---

Looking Ahead: The Future of Art

In their closing thoughts, Simone and Courtney express optimism about the evolving role of art and artists in shaping societal narratives.

Simone Castei envisions:
"The ability to reclaim a space against the world... [20:22]"

Courtney Martin reflects on the transformative power of artists:
"Artists are states, people. And so, you know, even my own ability to move throughout the world has largely been enabled by art... [20:26]"

Their forward-looking perspectives highlight art's enduring capacity to innovate and influence.

---

Conclusion

As the conversation wraps up, Yana Peel ties together the profound reflections shared by Simone and Courtney, emphasizing the lasting impact of their first Biennale experiences and their continuous contributions to the art world. The episode not only sheds light on the nuanced responsibilities of curators but also celebrates the vibrant, ever-evolving landscape of contemporary art.

Listeners are encouraged to stay connected with CHANEL Connects for future episodes exploring diverse intersections of art and culture.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• "The role is to accompany the artist and to be in the background and make sure that things are at the best of their possibility." – Simone Castei [05:38]

• "You are in this constant conversation with all of those people to make this singular thing happen." – Courtney Martin [10:03]

• "Artists give us a lot of innovation in ways that many other fields just don't have the ability to do that." – Courtney Martin [20:26]

---

This episode of CHANEL Connects offers a rich exploration of curatorial excellence and the vibrant dynamism of the Venice Biennale, making it a must-listen for art enthusiasts and aspiring curators alike.

Transcript

[Yana Peel]

Welcome to Chanel Connects, the Venice Biennale edition. It's important to be free.

[Courtney Martin]

So who was the fool who didn't recognize it all that time ago?

[Simone Castei]

It is seduction.

[Courtney Martin]

Oh, absolutely.

[Penny Martin]

Just another woman trying to survive. So who of them is lying?

[Courtney Martin]

I wish that were the case.

[Penny Martin]

Well, let's face the terror of the new work, then.

[Simone Castei]

And this is what art is so good at.

[Courtney Martin]

I don't. Do you prepare? No, no, no.

[Yana Peel]

In this season of Chanel Connects, we've taken up residence in Italy to go to the center of the art world. Listen in to the artists, curators, thinkers and makers behind the Venice Biennale, the world's most important exhibition of contemporary art. Now in its 60th edition. Each of our guests is focused on what matters most and what happens next. I'm Yana Peel, global head of Arts and Culture at Chanel. Thank you for connecting with us.

[Courtney Martin]

Could you tell where my head was at when you found me?

[Simone Castei]

Me?

[Courtney Martin]

You went to. Hello.

[Yana Peel]

Prominent curator and art historian Hanselrich Obrist has told me that curating is about creating junctions and connections. It's about making the invisible visible and facilitating encounters between artworks, artists and audiences. What does it mean to curate? In this episode, we are joined by Simone Castei, co founder of the 89 Project, and Courtney Martin, executive director of the Robert Rauschenberg Foundation. Our moderator, Penny Martin, spoke to Courtney and Simone in Venice's Conservatorio de Musica. You might well hear some opera in the background. Enj.

[Penny Martin]

What is it that brings you to the biennale here in 2024?

[Courtney Martin]

A sense of curiosity about what will happen this year. I never missed a year since I started coming, and so this year, I think I am curious about what will happen. This is the first time that a curator has been drawn from Latin America.

[Simone Castei]

I would say, like Courtney, I've never missed the Biennale since I've started coming. I came in 2001 for the first time when I was 17, and it really knocked my socks off, I would say. I had no idea that contemporary art was even a thing. Mind you, it was before Google was something that people would use on a regular basis. So I had no idea it even existed. I just saw billboards around Venice that said it was the Venice Biennale. And I thought, what is that? And I remember going with my younger sister, and we're, you know, completely ecstatic about what we're saying. So I guess, in a way, I'm chasing that feeling of first discovery.

[Courtney Martin]

That's my first Biennale as well.

[Simone Castei]

Oh, my God.

[Courtney Martin]

It was. Yeah.

[Simone Castei]

And that's when we met.

[Courtney Martin]

I wish that were the case.

[Penny Martin]

So at 17, what effect did that have on you? Was that when you knew this was what you wanted to do?

[Simone Castei]

I think it helped precipitate the movement.

[Penny Martin]

Give us a standout memory from that one year, then, if that's what you share.

[Courtney Martin]

This is the thing. This is not a memory of the Biennale. It's the memory of what happens after the Biennale that are, in fact, unrelated. But it helped later in that year because I'd come in the spring for the opening, and later in that year, of course, is the tragedy of 9 11. And I remember going back in my mind to all of the pictures and posters and all of the. All the happiness and excitement that I had felt that spring after things were a bit chall. And so I always think of that Biennale as being, you know, something that provided just this great sense of respite for me in a challenging time.

[Penny Martin]

For our listeners who may not know we're interested to reach a definition, could you decide together what it is that you think a curator is?

[Courtney Martin]

There's the practical piece. You work for an institution or you don't work for an institution, and you are on your own. You manage a collect, or you are perfectly free of that as a responsibility. You have a sense of deep organizational skills, but you are also wildly creative at exactly the same time. And those two things, I think, are actually quite hard to find in a person, to feel as if you understand how to pull together a big freeform idea that you're having by yourself, perhaps so that other people can see it. There are curators who never work with living artists. There are curators who only work with living artists. So there's a way in which there's a binary of experience between being sort of wholly staid and wildly free. But you have to do both of those things simultaneously in order, I think, to be a curator.

[Simone Castei]

I fully agree with what Courtney said and about this duality. And I think both of us are very lucky that we have this experience of shared vulnerability in a way that you can have with an artist, a living artist, whose work you're trying to present in the best possible way at that stage of their career in a certain context. And I would say there's even as many ways to curate as there are artists who work. But most importantly, I would say maybe the definition, I think the role is to accompany the artist and to be in the background and make sure that things are at the best of their possibility.

[Courtney Martin]

That is absolutely true.

[Penny Martin]

I believe you've known each other for more than a decade. Can you tell us the story of how that came about?

[Courtney Martin]

You have to tell it.

[Simone Castei]

Wait, I'm blanking. Oh, yes, that's true. Okay, now it's True. Back in 2013, I co founded a project with Hans Eric Obrist that was called 89, that was somehow charting the new world of possibilities and that artists born in 89 and after, globally, were creating. Long story short, by doing this work, we came across hundreds, if not thousands of practitioners around the world. And Courtney at the time was teaching, and all of her students loved her. And especially because she gave her students the opportunity to invite people to talk at Brown. And somehow a group of students asked to invite me to talk.

[Courtney Martin]

I would add to Simon's story. I asked my students because I felt that I was teaching from my own space of experience, and I was supposed to be teaching contemporary art, but I am trained as a modernist. And so I taught them modern art and modernist principles so that we could get to the contemporary. And so then I felt that their job was, was to bring the contemporary and that we then would all talk about it. And so they, you know, they brought forth Simone as someone that they felt was doing incredible work, and they were so persuasive about why the work was important to them. And so when I met Simone, I could see it immediately.

[Penny Martin]

You mentioned there are as many curators or genres of curator as there are artists, practically. But can we ask you to at least paint us a picture of a day in the life of your curatorial practice?

[Courtney Martin]

It depends on where I am, and the day is rarely ever about the individual show. So there are exhibitions that I've curated that I continue to think about and to think about how they developed. So this morning I spent a lot of time while seeing the de Kooning show thinking about what I should have done differently in my Robert Ryman show. And that show was almost a decade ago.

[Penny Martin]

What was the answer?

[Courtney Martin]

I might have been more interested in three dimensionality at that moment than I recognized. It was a painting show, but there were some three dimensional objects, but I might have enhanced them more, I might have brought them out more because I think that was crucial to his practice.

[Penny Martin]

So is that one of the elements of coming to the Biennale, that you're always in conversation with your own practice, as per what your peers have?

[Courtney Martin]

Oh, absolutely. And you're also in. You're in conversation with. You're in conversation with every other show that you've ever seen here. And with all of the sort of excitement around it, I think, including Performances that you know rarely ever happen again.

[Penny Martin]

And for you, Simone, I would say.

[Simone Castei]

You know, from the perspective of working within an institution, one of the most exciting things I would say from the work we do is that you have such a wide array of people with whom you correspond on a daily basis. So you're going to have six meetings with people who are. Either it's a conservator or it's an artist who you're going to go see in their studio, or you're going to have a zoom meeting with another curator in another institution on the other side of the planet. So you are constantly exposed to a vast array of perspectives that is incredibly enriching. And back in 2001, you necessarily are going to have a much more Eurocentric perspective. The Biennial we are going to go and see this year is widely different. And part of this is due to the fact that information travels much faster and there are no geographical bounds to knowledge anymore. To some extent, that's true.

[Penny Martin]

I'm very struck that this conversation isn't about authorship, then it's not about you in a silo and your own kind of auteurship. Then it seems as if it's very collegial and you're very aware of your peers.

[Courtney Martin]

Oh, completely. And I think we get the title of curator. But in reality, I have never worked on a show by myself before, ever. There is, you know, there's the conservator, there is the head of installation, there is the registrar, you know, the person that you is your lifeline to get the object to you. And you are in this constant conversation with all of those people to make this singular thing happen. If one of you emerges as a sole voice, it is only for the moment that your expertise is needed and then immediately dissolves into the next moment when somebody else, you know, we need this question answered. You step forward and you answer the question, and then you go back to the collective. You're never alone in that space.

[Penny Martin]

What's very striking about what you're saying is how profound and how long standing your relationship with an artist can be. I mean, it can sometimes occupy your whole life. So you have to be quite careful. What do you think it is that draws you to an artist? It's a big commitment, isn't it?

[Simone Castei]

Potentially, it's a huge commitment. And I think when you are the way I think Courtney and I are, we're very loyal people when it comes to friendships. And so you will go to the end of the earth to go to your friends opening. And as Your career evolves, then you have more and more and more and more of those. So it becomes overwhelming, but it's worth every. Every bit of it, I would say. There are artists I've known now for 20 years because they're people I've been lucky enough to grow up with. And seeing them succeed today is incredibly rewarding in that when you've been able to play even a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny role in their success, could you.

[Penny Martin]

Each give an example of somebody that you've worked for a long time with to stage an exhibit and how that kind of feeds into your life?

[Courtney Martin]

I first saw Rashid Irene's work, who is a Pakistani British artist, and I saw him on the first Friday of my first year at university. And I have been thinking about that work all the way through. And I will hopefully realize a major project that he developed in the 1960s for the Yale center for British Art this fall, which is a project to both have public and private interact with each other over food by way of something called the Shamayana, which is an Islamic wedding tradition where you invite community in to celebrate the marriage. Not in this sort of sense of, you know, these are the relatives, these are the family. But in fact, everybody gets to come and benefit from the joy that's happening. And I would say that I've known about that project as a drawing, as his idea, and the idea that I would get to be a part of its activation all these years later is astounding to me. And that I've talked to him along the way has just been, you know, frankly, a benefit to me.

[Penny Martin]

Simone.

[Simone Castei]

The example that comes to mind is based on friendship. In fact, I think that's, you know, as I was mentioning that before growing up with people, an artist whom I've been very happy to be able to work is Jeremy Shaw, who's an artist based in Berlin. We met probably 15 years ago by chance, and it's just a friend of mine. And maybe five years ago, when I was running Swiss Institute, we partnered with the Cent Pompidou in Paris to do his first major monograph in France and the US Turns out because of COVID we were not able to make it happen at Swiss Institute. So the catalog that we jointly published is only for the popular show. But that was still a wonderful opportunity to be able to accompany people at different stages of their life with the intimate knowledge of what their personality is and knowing how this could translate in the best possible way in an exhibition format, even if that exhibition never ends up happening.

[Penny Martin]

It's true, I'M interested to know what you felt when you first heard Pedrosa's theme for this year at the Biennale of Foreigners Everywhere.

[Courtney Martin]

Camus, you know, that sense of the idea. Because as soon as I heard Foreigner, I think maybe just from my own national context, it became stranger. And, you know, I thought, this is interesting because this is the largest number of artists that have ever been included, and that's a big feat because so there are 331 in this presentation. Cecilia Al Mani's presentation had 213, and Zeman's 2001 had, I believe, almost 200. And so to look at that, and I have to say, I thought that was overwhelming at the time, but I had nothing to gauge it by. And so I wonder, you know, what will this mean to actually to cast such a big population, you know, will we look at these people going forward as a class at some point? Will they come together as a group.

[Penny Martin]

For us and for you, Simone?

[Simone Castei]

When I heard about it, I thought, great, because I think for us curators, going to Biennial is the most exciting, when the less, you know people on the list, the more interesting it's going to be for you as a curator. And I think for an audience, a general audience, it can be true as well, because you're going to have positions that are forgotten or less easy to absorb, and that will provide food for thought for probably longer than a smaller list with much better known names.

[Courtney Martin]

That's true.

[Penny Martin]

It's a huge responsibility, that job. How alluring is that top position of Biennale curator for you?

[Courtney Martin]

We could do it together. Together, we would do it. I would do it stronger together. Yes, I would. Absolutely. You know what? I'm not even being funny about this. I would absolutely curate anything with you.

[Penny Martin]

You should shake on that.

[Courtney Martin]

Shall we?

[Simone Castei]

Let's.

[Penny Martin]

A deal was done here.

[Simone Castei]

No, it's hard to answer. I would. I think it must be a daunting experience for whoever is bestowed the honor of curating the International exhibition of the Venice Biennale, because you're going to be the subject of so much scrutiny, and there is no way to win. Every person who curate a Venice Biennale is sort of vilified for about two weeks, it's true, and glorified for the years, for the years after, because everybody will inevitably say, it was much better two years ago.

[Penny Martin]

So once you've heard that theme, what do you do then? How much preparation do you both do before you arrive? What do you read? Which critics are you interested in?

[Courtney Martin]

I don't. Do you prepare?

[Simone Castei]

No.

[Courtney Martin]

No, no. None. Not at all. And in fact, I wouldn't read. I wouldn't. Yeah, no, God, no.

[Simone Castei]

No, no. You just. You want to be ready to absorb somehow, as a blank slate, even if you knew all of the artists participating, you want to have this surprise.

[Courtney Martin]

Absolutely.

[Penny Martin]

Of course there are awards. The lions. How important are they to you?

[Simone Castei]

I think they're more important in retrospect, in a way, not to take away from the artists who receive them. It's obviously a great honor, but it's interesting to see the shifts that happen based on how those are awarded. And they always signal something very strong. And then you have. I was reading that you had a short period of time during which it was considered utterly bourgeois to have prizes for the Venezuelan alley. So they were suspended for a period.

[Courtney Martin]

Of time after 1968, the year that Bridget Reilly wins.

[Simone Castei]

Was it the year she won?

[Courtney Martin]

She won in 68. And so that's. And you're right. And there is this kind of sense of. I think the counterculture had, you know, moved into art in that sense, and, you know, people weren't interested. And what did the prize mean?

[Penny Martin]

There's going to be so many people listening to this, being excited by what you do and interested in the possibilities. What would you say is the best advice you can give to a budding curator?

[Simone Castei]

Go everywhere, see everything, and listen to what the artists have to say. Yes, it's the most important thing. Don't listen too much to what the others.

[Courtney Martin]

No, don't listen to anything.

[Penny Martin]

Presumably, you have no time for escape, but in the city of Venice, what are the food destinations and the locations and the shops that you can only see here that you wouldn't miss?

[Simone Castei]

I always try to go to Musee aux Corre for the unbelievable collection. And sometimes, you know, because we work in the contemporary art world, history hasn't done its brutal edit. When you look at contemporary art, there's a lot that's going to be interesting in the moment, maybe not forever. And in any case, it is hugely overwhelming. Going back to the roots of what you love, going back to seeing art from five centuries ago is a way to reconnect very much to why you do what you do.

[Courtney Martin]

I completely agree. I got off the train yesterday and I dropped off my bags and I went immediately to the academia to see Bellini and Titian and Tiepolo. And then I felt that I could move forward.

[Penny Martin]

But I heard that you also make time for sepi compliment. Is that not true?

[Courtney Martin]

I do. And I am at a. A deficit right now because usually I eat it as the first meal that I arrive and continue doing so until the end, the very end, the bitter end.

[Penny Martin]

There is one question that we are asking. Every participant in Chanel connects, and it is what excites you most about the future of art?

[Simone Castei]

The ability to reclaim a space against the world.

[Courtney Martin]

Yeah, I think I grew up with an idea that artists were magicians, and I think that comes out of a very specific time. But I think I've come into an idea that artists are states, people. And so, you know, even my own ability to move throughout the world has largely been enabled by art. And so I hope that. That. I hope that people can embrace a sense of that, because artists give us a lot of innovation in ways that many other fields just don't have the ability to do that.

[Penny Martin]

Well, let's look forward to that. Thank you very much, Simone and Courtney.

[Simone Castei]

Thank you.

[Courtney Martin]

Thank you.

[Yana Peel]

Thank you to Simone and Courtney. As Simone and Courtney shared their first time visiting, the Venice Biennale has very much stayed with them in profound ways. We wanted to know from our Venice Biennale attendees this year about the first time they came to Venice. I believe mine was 1999, when Harold Zieman was the curator.

[Penny Martin]

My first ever time in Venice was maybe 20 years ago.

[Simone Castei]

I came in November, and it was a very great day, and there was.

[Penny Martin]

Like, mist everywhere, and I was very happy to finally see the city.

[Courtney Martin]

I went to Venice for the first time with my dear friend who is an exceptional curator, and it was an amazing opportunity to realize that everybody is a different type of art viewer. And I went in with an agenda to see every single thing. But my first time I went, I went as if it was the only time I would ever get to go. And I ran. I ran around like a headless chicken.

[Yana Peel]

I was alone and afraid and much younger than I am now. I might have had three ice cream cones worth of chocolate gelato and no other food and may have not found my way back, and may have crawled to the steps of the Danielle and asked for my mentor's room key to go up and sleep in her room, because I literally couldn't find my way back home because I didn't have a cell phone, because it was before the Internet.

[Hans Ulrich Obrist]

So I came here for the first time when I was a teenager, when I was trying to kind of figure out what I was going to do at university and therefore with my life. And I kind of didn't have a clear sense. And then one night, I went to the Accademia Gallery, which used to be open late on a Wednesday, and I happened to be there in almost the final gallery, which is that amazing narrative cycle around the life of Saint Ursula by Carpaccio. And I was sat there by myself with my rough guide and entranced by these paintings and reading about how Ruskin, John Ruskin, the 19th century critic, had felt the same. And I had this kind of epiphany, which is, I want to do art history. So I owe Venice a huge amount.

[Yana Peel]

Thank you so much to all of our contributors who joined us in Venice for the 60th edition of the Biennale. Thank you for listening to Chanel Connects, the Venice Biennale edition. Now, the number five is very important in the house of Chanel, so please consider giving us five stars on whatever platform you're listening to us. Please follow the show so you don't miss an episode. Listen to more from the Chanel Connects archives. One of my favorites is the episode with Frida Escobedo and Jose Esparza Chongkuy on the connection between architecture and art. You can find them and all previous [e-mail] Next time on Chanel Connects, Icelandic artist Hildegunner Birgisdottir and Hong Kong's Trevor Young explore the relationship between humankind and the natural world and how they make sense of the unknown.

[Courtney Martin]

I don't even know the things the future will provide, but oh my God.

[Simone Castei]

When I see something that I don't have no understanding of, it's like, yes, thank you. And this is what art is so good at. Yeah, I cannot agree more.

[Yana Peel]

It's not to be missed. See you next week.