The Gallerists: Sadie Coles OBE and Angelina Volk

Summary

CHANEL Connects: The Gallerists – Sadie Coles OBE and Angelina Volk

Season 5, Episode: "The Gallerists: Sadie Coles OBE and Angelina Volk"
Release Date: July 16, 2024
Host: Yana Peel, President of Arts, Culture & Heritage, CHANEL

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Introduction

In the premiere episode of Season 5 of CHANEL Connects, titled "The Gallerists: Sadie Coles OBE and Angelina Volk," host Yana Peel delves into the dynamic world of contemporary art through the lens of two esteemed gallerists. Set against the evocative backdrop of La Pausa, Gabrielle Chanel’s meticulously designed Mediterranean villa on the French Riviera, the conversation explores the evolving landscape of art galleries, the significance of the Venice Biennale, and the intricate relationships between gallerists and artists.

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Meet the Guests: Sadie Coles and Angelina Volk

Sadie Coles OBE is the driving force behind Sadie Coles HQ, a renowned gallery showcasing prominent artists such as Sarah Lucas, Matthew Barney, and Urs Fischer. Angelina Volk, co-founder of Emmeline in London’s Shoreditch, has been instrumental in pushing the boundaries of art presentation since 2017. Emmeline represents artists like Nikita Gale, Carol Palchak, and Alvaro Barrington—who is also represented by Sadie Coles HQ, illustrating a unique camaraderie between the two galleries.

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Defining Roles: Gallerist vs. Art Dealer

Penny Martin initiates the discussion by probing the distinct roles within the art world:

Penny Martin [02:19]:
"Gallery, Gallerist, dealer, curator. They seem interchangeable sometimes. What is the difference? And which one are you?"

Angelina Volk [02:28]:
"I would say gallerist for myself. I'm sure Sadie would say the same."

Sadie Coles [02:32]:
"I wouldn't actually. Would you not? My mother said that gallerist is not a proper word. So I think I would probably just say art dealer."

This exchange highlights the fluidity and overlapping responsibilities in their professions, with both terms—gallerist and art dealer—reflecting their multifaceted roles in promoting and managing contemporary art.

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The Venice Biennale: A Pulse on the Art World

Sadie Coles provides an insightful analysis of the Venice Biennale's evolution:

Sadie Coles [02:48]:
"Biennials have had a changing role. The first one I came to was in 1993 and in that long, long period their function has changed, the size of them has changed, but they still remain large international events where you can take the pulse of what's happening. Sort of Zeitgeist Monitor, really, to a certain extent."

She emphasizes the Biennale as a "Zeitgeist Monitor," capturing the prevailing trends and shifts in the global art scene. Despite the rise of art fairs, the Biennale maintains its unique position through its expansive and diverse offerings, encompassing curated shows, national pavilions, and peripheral events across Venice's iconic locations.

Angelina Volk adds to this by reflecting on the Biennale's shift from a Western-centric focus:

Angelina Volk [04:03]:
"It definitely reinforced a kind of Western centric narrative, which was, I think, up until really 2015, was a very fixed narrative and one that has been opened up since."

This broadened narrative has allowed for greater diversity and inclusion, showcasing a wider array of voices and perspectives in contemporary art.

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Current Year’s Biennale: Discoveries and Highlights

The conversation turns to the 60th edition of the Venice Biennale, where both gallerists share their experiences and standout moments.

Sadie Coles [05:03]:
"Each curator brings a very different perspective. And Adriana Pederosa has... very much about global south and about foreigners, and foreigners as defined as people who are not necessarily or haven't traditionally necessarily been at a central platform. So there was always going to be this sense of discovery."

Angelina Volk [05:40]:
"An expression of that work of Miguel Michael Rojas, who's a Colombian artist... these photographs taken throughout the 70s... blurry and delicate and tender and voyeuristic and kind of open up the politics of looking. But those were incredible. I love those."

These examples illustrate the Biennale’s role in highlighting underrepresented narratives and innovative artistic expressions, reinforcing its status as a pivotal event for contemporary art discourse.

Sadie Coles [06:12]:
"There was a fantastic, enormous Biro drawing by a woman, Madge Gill, from 1936, which was quite the surprise."

Such discoveries underscore the Biennale’s capacity to unearth hidden gems and historical artworks, bridging past and present artistic movements.

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Navigating the Biennale: Strategies and Experiences

Penny Martin inquires about the gallerists' strategies for navigating the sprawling and complex ecosystem of the Venice Biennale.

Sadie Coles [06:59]:
"I find I do tick off all the big national pavilions, but it's very word of mouthy, especially now, it's got so enormous... I think the main thing is to keep your ears open."

Angelina Volk [07:28]:
"I usually have a strategy. I usually commit the first to the International Exhibition because that requires like a couple of days to sink in."

Their approaches blend structured planning with flexibility, emphasizing the importance of staying informed and receptive to new developments amidst the Biennale’s extensive offerings.

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The Art of Escaping: Personal Rituals Amidst the Chaos

Balancing the intensity of the Biennale, both gallerists share their personal retreats:

Sadie Coles [07:53]:
"All of mine are food... I always have lunch at d' Evo on the first day... Go to Arturos... People watching is really fun here."

Angelina Volk [07:57]:
"Mine is Tremottini all the way... there's a great vintage fashion store called La Mario di Coco Vintage."

These moments of respite not only provide relaxation but also opportunities for informal networking and inspiration through the vibrant surroundings of Venice.

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A Day in the Life: The Multifaceted Role of a Gallerist

Penny Martin seeks to unravel the daily dynamics of a gallerist’s life.

Sadie Coles [09:13]:
"There's a lot of problem solving, but there's enormous pleasure in all the conversations one is having all day... It's a pretty magical job... It's an exchange of ideas, really."

Angelina Volk [09:59]:
"Selling art is part of our job, and I think it is something really comprehensive that involves, of course, exhibition making... being deeply ingrained in the artistic process with your artist."

Their roles extend beyond sales to continuous engagement with artistic creation, exhibition planning, and fostering meaningful relationships with artists and collectors.

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Curating Artistic Excellence: Beyond Transactions

The discussion shifts to the ethical and strategic considerations in representing artists:

Sadie Coles [10:24]:
"You have to make sure that it has a chance to be in museum collections and will be protected and all those things too."

Angelina Volk [10:40]:
"It's a cultural good... exhibition making... deeply ingrained in the artistic process."

Both emphasize the importance of prioritizing the artists' long-term legacy and the cultural significance of their works, rather than mere transactional gains.

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Shared Representation: A Unique Collaboration

The conversation explores the rare scenario where both galleries represent the same artist:

Angelina Volk [11:36]:
"Alvaro Barrington has multiple galleries, even within the same city and many more galleries... treating the site specifically."

Sadie Coles [12:30]:
"Alvaro is very interested in the idea of community... very interested in challenging the conventions within the art world."

This shared representation underscores a collegial and supportive environment within the London art scene, where collaboration supersedes competition.

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A Collegial London Art Scene: Collaboration Over Competition

Sadie Coles [14:15]:
"Galerries are reaching out to each other to share resources, share information."

Angelina Volk [14:25]:
"In London, it's very collegial and very collaborative... We all help each other, we all introduce clients to each other."

The gallerists highlight the supportive network among London’s galleries, fostering a culture of mutual assistance and collective growth rather than isolation.

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The Role of Institutions in Art Collection

For those aspiring to start an art collection, Sadie advises engaging with institutions:

Sadie Coles [18:25]:
"Get involved with an institution... join a group of like-minded people who will also be learning or will pass on the knowledge."

This approach provides entry-level opportunities to connect with knowledgeable curators and build a foundational understanding of art collecting within a community framework.

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Looking Ahead: The Future of Art

In concluding remarks, both gallerists share their optimism for the future:

Angelina Volk [19:54]:
"I'm excited about my generation of artists and curators who are just at the very beginning of a lifelong journey of engaging with the world through their work."

Sadie Coles [20:19]:
"It's the fluidity of things. Everything changes all the time... it's very important to stay open to change."

Their enthusiasm reflects a belief in the continual evolution and resilience of the art world, driven by innovative minds and adaptable perspectives.

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Reflections on Past Biennales

Towards the end, the conversation nostalgically touches upon favorite past Venice Biennales:

Sadie Coles [22:03]:
"I would go back to the first one."

Angelina Volk [22:16]:
"I'm Ghana Hin."

Sadie Coles [22:58]:
"The 1974 Biennale dedicated to Chile... a very kind of fascinating addition."

These reflections highlight the historical significance and transformative moments within the Biennale, underscoring its enduring impact on the art world.

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Conclusion

The episode encapsulates the essence of contemporary art's vibrant and ever-changing landscape through the experiences and insights of Sadie Coles OBE and Angelina Volk. Their passionate discussion underscores the importance of collaboration, adaptability, and a deep commitment to fostering artistic innovation. As Season 5 of CHANEL Connects unfolds, listeners are promised an enriching exploration of art, culture, and the creative minds that shape our world.

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Notable Quotes:

• Sadie Coles [02:48]:
  "Sort of Zeitgeist Monitor, really, to a certain extent."

• Angelina Volk [04:05]:
  "The first Biennale I went to was in 2015, and that was Okwi en Bezzer, the late Nigerian curator."

• Sadie Coles [09:13]:
  "It's a pretty magical job... It's an exchange of ideas, really."

• Sadie Coles [19:54]:
  "It's the fluidity of things. Everything changes all the time."

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For more insights and engaging conversations, follow CHANEL Connects and explore its rich archive of episodes featuring influential voices in arts and culture.

Transcript

[Jana Peel]

Welcome to Chanel Connects, the Venice Biennale edition. It's important to be free.

[Sadie Coles]

So who was the fool who didn't.

[Angelina Vogt]

Recognize it all that time ago?

[Penny Martin]

I think it is seduction. Oh, absolutely.

[Sadie Coles]

Just another woman trying to survive.

[Jana Peel]

So who of them is lying?

[Penny Martin]

I wish that were the case. Well, let's face the terror of the new work then.

[Sadie Coles]

And this is what art is so good at.

[Penny Martin]

I don't. Do you prepare? No, no, no.

[Jana Peel]

In this season of Chanel Connects, we've taken up residence in Italy to go to the center of the art world. Listen in to the artists, curators, thinkers and makers behind the Venice Biennale, the world's most important exhibition of contemporary art. Now in its 60th edition. Each of our guests is focused on what matters most and what happens next. And now we get to listen in. I'm Jana Peel, Global Head of Arts and Culture at Chanel. Thank you for connecting with us. Could you tell where my head was.

[Sadie Coles]

At when you found me? Me and you went to hell and back just to find peace.

[Jana Peel]

In this episode, we connect with Sadie Cull's Obe and Angelina Vogt, both esteemed gallerists and virtuosos of contemporary art. Sadie Coles HQ is a world renowned gallery that hosts prestigious exhibitions from artists like Sarah Lucas, Matthew Barney and Urs Fisher. Emmeline was co founded by Angelina in 2017 in London's Shoreditch, just around the corner from where we are today. And it's been pushing the boundaries of how art is presented and perceived ever since. Angelina represents artists like Nikita Gale, Carol Palchak and Alvaro Barrington. Alvaro's also represented by Sadie Cole's hq, but more on that later. Sadie and Angelina share their love of Venice and the Biennale, reveal the unusually collegiate nature of London gallerists and discuss the challenges of representing artists today. To kick things off, our moderator Penny Martin starts by asking them what their job title.

[Penny Martin]

Gallery, Gallerist, dealer, curator. They seem interchangeable sometimes. What is the difference? And which one are you? Angelina?

[Angelina Vogt]

I would say gallerist for myself. I'm sure Sadie would say the same.

[Sadie Coles]

I wouldn't actually. Would you not? My mother said that gallerist is not a proper word. So I think I would probably just say art dealer.

[Penny Martin]

Then as an art dealer, why is it important for you to attend the Viennes Biennale?

[Sadie Coles]

Biennials have a changing have had a changing role. The first one I came to was in 1993 and in that long, long period their function has changed, the size of them has changed, but they still remain large international events where you can take the pulse of what's happening. Sort of Zeitgeist Monitor, really, to a certain extent, Art fairs have taken some of that away, because in 1993 the landscape was very different and the art fairs stole a bit of the thunder of biennials, because they also became places where you could sample the zeitgeist of what was going on internationally, what's being looked at, what's being talked about. But in a way, the unique thing about Venice is that within the Giardini, you have the Biennial show, which is a curated show, but then you have the pavilions, which are curated by other national curators and organizations, and then you have all these peripheral events in major museums and palazzos. So it's just a very, very, very large, increasingly large and rich platter from which you can look at things. And every year it feels bigger. And I was just thinking about 1993, for instance.

[Penny Martin]

Can you describe what it was like then?

[Sadie Coles]

There were definitely a lot less periphery events in palazzo's and sponsored events. So it was much more focused on the giardini, on things that were going on in the giardini. But there were, of course, things that have changed enormously. Like I would say that it was very much more about men, male curators, male artists, and it was very much more focused on art from the West.

[Angelina Vogt]

It definitely reinforced a kind of Western centric narrative, which was, I think, up until really 2015, was a very fixed narrative and one that has been opened up since. And I mean, I don't have this many, many years of Biennial going experience to reflect on. But the first Biennial I went to was in 2015, and that was Okwi en Bezzer, the late Nigerian curator. And I think we see the way that that's opened up the Biennial. Now.

[Penny Martin]

What are you hoping to experience at this year's Biennale?

[Sadie Coles]

Each curator brings a very different perspective. And Adriana Pederosa has. We all knew on the boat here literally that we were going to be finding discoveries, because his whole proposal is very much about global south and about foreigners, and foreigners as defined as people who are not necessarily or haven't traditionally necessarily been at a central platform. So there was always going to be this sense of discovery. And I think that's really happened in a very big way this year.

[Penny Martin]

Can you give us some examples of what you've seen so far that are.

[Angelina Vogt]

An expression of that work of Miguel Michael Rojas, who's a Colombian artist, which were these photographs taken throughout the 70s through a kind of peephole in a bathroom? Stall of various moments of intimacy across cinemas in Bogota, where at the time illegal sexual encounters between men. But they're blurry and delicate and tender and voyeuristic and kind of open up the politics of looking. But those were incredible. I love those.

[Penny Martin]

What about you, Sadie?

[Sadie Coles]

There was a fantastic, enormous Biro drawing by a woman, Madge Gill, from 1936, who is in the collection of Walthamstow Public Library, which is somewhat remarkable. But that was amazing and that was quite the surprise.

[Penny Martin]

For my part, I've been coming 10 years, so I suppose I've seen five or so biennales and I'll be truly honest, I never really knew where I was, where I was meant to go. But I didn't really understand the three pillars and what the Arsenale was to the Giardini, et cetera. It took a long time for me to find my way around the geography of it. I wonder, as old hands, what's your strategy? Do you go around it in a set sequence, like a pit pony down the mine, or do you freestyle?

[Sadie Coles]

I find I do tick off all the big national pavilions, but it's very word of mouthy, especially now, it's got so enormous. So there are certain things I would really seek out and then project like Nebula, which is the foundation for between art and film. And that's very exceptional new commissions of contemporary artists. So, yeah, I think there are no hard and fast rules, but the main thing is to keep your ears open.

[Penny Martin]

How about you, Angelina? Do you do a lot of prep or do you?

[Angelina Vogt]

I usually have a strategy. I usually commit the first to the International Exhibition because that requires like a couple of days to sink in. And you then have the week to kind of discuss that with everyone. And it's, in a way, the thing that requires the most digestion.

[Penny Martin]

Do you make any room for escape? People seem to have amazing recommendations. Everybody you speak to has one thing that they go to sort of recalibrate and then come back in. What's yours?

[Sadie Coles]

All of mine are food.

[Angelina Vogt]

Yeah, I was just gonna say trametini is mine.

[Sadie Coles]

Like I always like to go to Da. I always have lunch at d' Evo on the first day because it's so delic. And then I usually go to Arturos. I mean, it's all food based because it's so fun. People watching is really fun here. A power breakfast at one of the big hotels is always super fun because you can see who's seeing who and what's going on. I had breakfast at the Gritty this morning and it was super fascinating. What else?

[Angelina Vogt]

Yeah, mine is Tremottini all the way. I have my spot. I go there every day.

[Sadie Coles]

Vintage fashion store.

[Angelina Vogt]

There's a great vintage fashion store.

[Sadie Coles]

There's one right near the gritty path. Has incredible old Burberry Macs and Hermes shoes.

[Angelina Vogt]

There's one that I love, which is tiny. It's basically one little table and a set of closets around it called La Mario di Coco Vintage, which is right across from the Tiesa di Santa Maria d', Itlio, which is great.

[Penny Martin]

You heard it here first. Fashion fanatics. For the benefit of somebody that can't quite picture what makes up your work, can you give us a. There are, of course, no typical days, but can you give us a sort of day in the life and what might you be doing?

[Sadie Coles]

So there's a lot of problem solving, but there's enormous pleasure in all the conversations one is having all day. Talking to artists is amazing because they just see the world in a different way and they can open your eyes and take you off on a journey that is like the best, biggest adventure you've ever been on. Sometimes terrifying, sometimes financially reckless. You know, all of that, it's really. It's. It's pretty magical. It's a pretty magical job. It's not luxury goods either. That's the other thing. Of course, we both have shops. Let's face it, they're shops, we're shopkeepers, that's fine. But it's. It's not luxury goods. Not. So it's a completely different kind of exchange that is going on. It's often an exchange of ideas, really.

[Angelina Vogt]

Yeah. It's a cultural good. Of course, selling art is part of our job, and I think it is something really comprehensive that involves, of course, exhibition making, which for me is a huge part of what we do. I love doing that. But there's so much. Yeah, as Sadie said, that's beyond that, from producing catalogs to really being deeply, deeply ingrained in the artistic process with your artist.

[Sadie Coles]

Well, that's it.

[Penny Martin]

It's one thing to be responsible and to fight for your artists, but. But then you've also got to decide what would be best for the artwork, where it should go. Which isn't just a case of just selling to anyone, is it? You have to make sure that it has a chance to be in museum collections and will be protected and all those things too.

[Sadie Coles]

Yeah. You have to do your very best in that regard. And of course, the ultimate goal would be a museum collection. But the definition of museum these days has broadened and there are many private institutions of very, very high quality that rival the seriousness of a national collection and certainly have more buying power. So that definition has really changed. I would say, though, that I kind of. I wish that in the media that the discussion around art and the art market was less about the transactional side, because as Angelina just said, you know, this is ideas and it's culture. It's so much more than just the price that something reached at auction or the record that a young painter just made. You know, it's so much, much more than that.

[Penny Martin]

There's something that unites you quite literally that you share an artist. How does that work?

[Angelina Vogt]

Actually, quite wonderfully.

[Sadie Coles]

Yeah. It's really fun.

[Angelina Vogt]

Yeah. It's a bit of an. What people always consider a bit unconventional because said artist, Alvaro Barrington, has multiple galleries, even within the same city and many more galleries, and is perhaps the norm for an artist at that stage in his career. I think while there's much that unites us in spirit, it's two Sadie's in Soho, in St James and in Mayfair. We're in Shoreditch in East London. So it's a very different set of conditions and a very different way of exhibition making. And to treat that site specifically, what Alvar always says is the 10 minutes before you enter an exhibition are as important for conditioning you to experience that art as the space itself. So, yeah, walking through Shoreditch on Shoreditch High street is a very different kind of mental space than walking down Davies Street.

[Sadie Coles]

Mm. I mean, I think Alvaro is very interested in the idea of community. And of course, by showing with lots of different galleries, he's plugging into lots of different communities. You know, of course we share some collectors and some colleagues, but we also have different contexts and colleagues and connections. So he is taking advantage of all of those things. And he's also very interested in challenging the conventions perhaps within the art world. And I'm very interested in that.

[Penny Martin]

You painted as a picture of the art world when you joined it as being quite exclusive, but not literally just in commercial or maybe class terms or whatever, but also just there weren't that many women. Is there more of an informal mentoring atmosphere, do you think?

[Sadie Coles]

Now I think perhaps the homogenization of the art market has really meant that younger galleries or galleries in mid tier galleries have kind of reached out to each other, especially over the pandemic, to kind of try and figure out how to best solve the depressing day to day problems that we all have. And I also think that's true in regard to the auction houses, because the auction houses traditionally weren't interested in new art. They were. They would generally have not put things into auction that were less than five years old. But now their practice is completely. They'll just take anything they want. So that has changed a lot. And I think that basically that means that those galleries who are neither the top, top tier or are operating as sort of sole traders, so to speak, are reaching out to each other to try and share resources, share information. Don't you think?

[Angelina Vogt]

Yeah, I think so, Absolutely. I don't know if it's unique to London. I always feel like in London, it's very. It feels very collegial and very collaborative. I also feel like there's so many of my colleagues, both who run galleries themselves, but also who work at more established galleries who provide an amazing support network. We all help each other, we all introduce clients to each other, we all love each other's artists, sometimes collect each other's artists. It's really also an acknowledgement that we're not operating in a vacuum, as is the case with culture, as is the case with how artists make work. No one is this kind of myth of an artist genius locked away in their studio making work that just comes to them from the ether is just not really how it works.

[Penny Martin]

Zaidie, you've had artists representing their respective nations in the Biennale before. Does that make for a different week for you?

[Sadie Coles]

Yes, it's enormous. I mean, because it's usually the culmination of a strong number of years of somebody growing their practice and that being recognised by international collectors, curators, museum people, critics. And it feels like a massive kind of platform. Venice, because it really is a big platform. It feels like the whole world is going to be here or watch. And the responsibility of assisting the official body to help them produce the show is quite onerous on the galleries. And then there's a massive amount of, kind of social support that you need to give to the artist. And parties, all of it. It's a very, very big celebration.

[Penny Martin]

Can you say who you've brought?

[Sadie Coles]

Well, the big one for me was Sarah Lucas. Cause that was, you know, 30 years of working together, and it was very. That was very, very emotional. She represented Britain and that was a very emotional moment for all of us because we couldn't believe we'd got there. So that really felt like something. Yeah.

[Penny Martin]

You mentioned the slow burn of a Biennale and the fact that it doesn't necessarily realize all of its ideas immediately. And I know that you, the 2022 Milk of Dreams Biennale, Cecilia Alemanni's show, which of course incorporated so many women artists into its program. Can you say something about what the effect of that was?

[Sadie Coles]

I think that these major shows that are so carefully curated by such important curators inevitably shift the conversation one way or another. So you will see exhibitions popping up in other museums in the next two years from Adriano Pederosa's wonderful, deeply researched project, as you did from Illimani's incredible Milk of Dreams. But pretty much every single one I've been to since 1993, that has happened. And I think that is a wonderful thing. You know, the sense of refocusing on women artists from Cecilia's exhibition, you know, bore incredible fruit. And you only have to look at like a list of all of the exhibitions in New York today to see that.

[Angelina Vogt]

Yeah, I mean, I think it takes for those discourses to really materialize. That can take decades and those conversations go on for decades. I think that's why it's categorically so different from an art fair. I mean, the number of times actually this week that I've heard people sort of stumble over their words and say, oh, have you been to the fair? It's just something completely different because it is about creating a conversation. And that metabolizes over many years to come, because it's an exhibition history in that it just builds on itself. And the same goes for the curatorial premises and provocations of the International Exhibition.

[Penny Martin]

And if there was somebody listening that didn't realise that they could be part of this and they could support somebody and start building a collection, who might you advise them this year to take a look at if they wanted to start their collection here?

[Angelina Vogt]

Well, that's an almost impossible question because it completely depends on the individual what speaks to them, what resonates to them.

[Sadie Coles]

I think if you're interested in getting involved, one of the very best ways is to get involved with an institution, because most institutions have patrons, organizations, and they can be very entry level. Not asking people for hundreds of thousands, but entry level kind of schemes where you join a group of like minded people who will also be learning or will pass on the knowledge that they have to you. And often that group of people is led by the curator, curatorial team of the institution. So they can advise in terms of what you might want to look at or what exhibitions are interesting or what artists are interesting, not just within their own institution. And that's a very, very nice way of accessing a community and accessing knowledge and Having some guidance. Most people, once they've done that for a while, they're off on their own because they develop their own taste, they make a connection. They go to Angelina's gallery, they meet her, and then they realise that. That the person that they would like to have guide them further and show them other artists or, you know, help build their collection. But I would suggest getting involved with an institution is a very good way.

[Penny Martin]

We're going to end with our last question, which we're asking all our guests on Chanel Connects, and it is. What are you excited about in the future of art?

[Angelina Vogt]

I'm excited about my generation of artists and curators who are just at the very beginning of a lifelong journey of engaging with the world through their work. And also, of course, at the center of that is the artists that I work with. And, I mean, it's an amazing, exciting thing to have no idea. It'd be completely unpredictable what they're gonna do next. And it's just endlessly exciting.

[Sadie Coles]

I think what excites me at the moment is the same thing that excited me right from the beginning. It's the fluidity of thing. Everything changes all the time. And in the world that I'm in, you know, what is being talked about, one Biennial changes the next Biennial. So you're constantly looking at a new flow of ideas, a new flow of kind of mapped points, completely changing shape of things that are at that moment important socially, politically, culturally, gender wise. You know, I mean, it's really. I think it's very, very important to stay open to change. And that's actually one of the most fantastic things about being in the world that we're in.

[Penny Martin]

Perfect place to stop. Thank you so much, Sadie and Angelina.

[Jana Peel]

Thank you to Sadie Coles and Angelina Vogt. The Venice Biennale has a rich history dating back to 1895. So we asked attendees from this Biennale if they could travel back in time. Which Biennale from the past would they attend and why? I think one Biennale I would have loved seeing is the one in 1985 with Aldo Rossi and his structure Teatro del Monte, which was simple theater built on a raft that cruised around Venice in the Piazza San Marco and then left the city to sail along the Adriatic Sea. I would choose the first one because I want to see, you know, the.

[Sadie Coles]

Difference between then and now and how.

[Jana Peel]

Contemporary maybe it was at the time.

[Sadie Coles]

Yeah, the first one, I would go.

[Jana Peel]

Back to the 2019 Biennale because it was the first time Ghana had a pavilion.

[Angelina Vogt]

I'm Ghana Hin.

[Jana Peel]

So that was pretty big deal. One that springs to mind as particularly important would be the Biennale of 1948, which was the first Biennale after the Second World War. And that was just such an important Biennale, not just for the fact that it was about Venice becoming international again after the Second World War and fascism, but just for some of the things that happened. The fact that Peggy Guggenheim showed her collection here before she had a museum and, you know, was able to show Jackson Pollock in. In post war Europe. And of course we know that that went on to trigger her basing herself here and then eventually her collection staying here.

[Sadie Coles]

I do have a Biennale that I.

[Jana Peel]

Wish I had seen, and that was because when I was researching the kind.

[Sadie Coles]

Of like for the international, the solidarity movements, and it was a 1974 that I think the whole Biennale was dedicated to Chile. And I kind of like romanticized that as a very kind of fascinating addition.

[Jana Peel]

There were three I really liked. One was Cecilia's two years ago. And Massimiliano, I thought he did a really good architecture. And I did also like Okui.

[Penny Martin]

I'm not sure I could pick out one.

[Angelina Vogt]

Maybe it was Leonor Carrington, the surrealism.

[Sadie Coles]

I mean, it just opened up to.

[Jana Peel]

Like, the feminine sensibility. The ladies had it in 2022.

[Sadie Coles]

I think the magic is seeing your first biennale when you don't really understand the way the national pavilions work. The International exhibition works with the group show, the fact that you get to be part of this moment that defines the zeitgeist. But today is pretty good.

[Jana Peel]

Thank you so much to all of our contributors who joined us in Venice for the 60th edition of the Biennale. Thank you for listening to Chanel Connects, the Venice Biennale edition. Now, the number five is very important in the house of Chanel, so please consider giving us five stars on whatever platform you're listening to us. Please follow the show so you don't miss an episode. Other episodes you might enjoy in the Chanel Connects archive are Saltburn director Emerald Fennell and Gillian Flynn, two women at the heart of filmmaking today. Or Eliza Hittman, Garrett Bradley and chief curator of Film at MoMA, Rajendra Roy, who discuss how everyday women navigate systems that are often stacked against them. You can find them and all previous episodes on chanel.com next time on chanel Connects, we meet Julien Crouzet, the first French Caribbean artist to represent France at the Biennale. Julien talks about his immersive exhibition fusing sculpture, film, music and more. His roots in Martinique and how hip hop inspired his love for poetry. Here, Tate International Curator of Art, Alvin Lee sits down with Julien and sets the scene. I'm curious about the setup of your studio. Can you describe your studio settings for us? My studio looks like a secret kitchen. Thank you for listening. Looking forward to seeing you back next week.

[Sadie Coles]

Sam.