CHANEL Connects: The Sparring Partners – William Kentridge and Carolyn Christov-Bakargiev

Release Date: July 30, 2024

In the vibrant ambiance of La Pausa, CHANEL’s flagship arts and culture podcast, "CHANEL Connects," Season 5 delves deep into the dynamic relationship between South African artist William Kentridge and esteemed curator Carolyn Christov-Bakargiev. Hosted by Jana Peel and featuring insightful moderation by Penny Martin, the episode titled "The Sparring Partners" offers a rich exploration of their collaborative journey, creative philosophies, and visions for the future of art.

1. Introduction to the Venice Biennale Edition

Timestamp: [00:04] – [01:01]

Jana Peel sets the stage for this special Venice Biennale edition of CHANEL Connects, highlighting the podcast's new residence in Italy to immerse listeners in the heart of the art world. The 60th edition of the Venice Biennale serves as the perfect backdrop for conversations with leading visionaries shaping contemporary art.

2. The Genesis of a Creative Partnership

Timestamp: [02:05] – [03:36]

Carolyn Christov-Bakargiev recalls meeting William Kentridge in Umbria during a residency at a castle, where their paths crossed unexpectedly with Carolyn balancing a young child. This serendipitous encounter blossomed into a long-term collaboration marked by mutual respect and creative synergy.

Carolyn Christov-Bakargiev:
"I visited your studio and was blown over. And we've been doing things ever since." ([02:05])

William reflects on their early projects, emphasizing Carolyn's innate ability to provoke and reinterpret his work, fostering an environment where both artist and curator challenge each other to explore deeper creative territories.

William Kentridge:
"A great curator is also a provoker of the artist, not simply a receiver of finished work." ([03:36])

3. The Essence of Their Collaborative Dynamic

Timestamp: [03:43] – [09:35]

The conversation delves into the unique "sparring" dynamic between William and Carolyn, likening their interactions to a disciplined yet creative fencing match. This interplay allows them to anticipate each other's moves, fostering a harmonious yet intellectually stimulating partnership.

Penny Martin:
"Do you ever have a disagreement in this overall harmonious relationship?" ([05:49])

William candidly shares instances of resistance to Carolyn's ideas, highlighting the tension that ultimately leads to more refined and impactful artistic outcomes.

William Kentridge:
"It's almost always, God, how stupid I am. And of course, she's right." ([06:48])

Carolyn elaborates on how their disagreements stem from a shared understanding of the evolving nature of art, especially in the digital age, and how this mutual drive pushes their creative boundaries.

4. Exploring "Self Portrait as a Coffee Pot"

Timestamp: [13:20] – [16:31]

William introduces his latest installation, "Self Portrait as a Coffee Pot," curated by Carolyn. This multifaceted project comprises nine half-hour films that reflect on the artist's studio as both a physical and metaphoric space of creation. Filmed during the COVID lockdown, the works embody a conversation with oneself, blending past and present dialogues.

William Kentridge:
"It's about the studio as a place of making... and a metaphoric space of making meaning." ([13:34])

Carolyn discusses the immersive experience for viewers, who find themselves both inside and outside the creative process, enhancing their understanding of the intertwined nature of art and the artist's psyche.

Carolyn Christov-Bakargiev:
"The experience of the viewer is of being both inside the screen and outside the screen." ([15:53])

5. Bridging Analog and Digital in Contemporary Art

Timestamp: [17:19] – [25:28]

The discussion shifts to the intersection of traditional and digital mediums in art. William emphasizes his commitment to analog techniques, even as he incorporates digital tools for editing, maintaining a tactile connection to his work.

William Kentridge:
"There's a kind of an encouragement towards agency to people saying, yes, you can do it." ([24:23])

Carolyn observes how younger artists perceive their generation as analog pioneers, inspiring them to explore beyond digital confines. She highlights the importance of integrating art history with contemporary practices to foster a richer, more inclusive future for art.

Carolyn Christov-Bakargiev:
"The question is, what is the material of the digital age. That's the question that people are not thinking about." ([29:09])

6. Visions for the Future of Art

Timestamp: [25:28] – [29:21]

When asked about their excitement for the future of art, William speaks passionately about upcoming projects that blend theater, music, and historical narratives, such as his chamber opera exploring a ship's journey from Marseille to Martinique in 1941.

William Kentridge:
"The next project is... a theatrical project, kind of chamber opera, about a ship's journey from Marseille to Martinique in 1941." ([26:06])

Carolyn anticipates significant shifts driven by the digital revolution, urging the art world to embrace new forms and technologies while integrating them with traditional practices to create a more dynamic and diverse artistic landscape.

Carolyn Christov-Bakargiev:
"There's a tremendous presumption in the art world when they say, oh, the NFTs are over. We have not come to terms with that yet." ([29:09])

7. Reflections on the Venice Biennale Experience

Timestamp: [19:29] – [24:17]

William reminisces about his participation in the Biennale, expressing admiration for Venice’s historical and artistic legacy, particularly the Tiepolo ceiling in the Church of the Rosary. He shares how such timeless art continues to inspire his contemporary creations.

William Kentridge:
"It's a kind of a metaphor of the cloud and the Internet, where everybody has their own little device, but it's connected to some bigger imagined image of it." ([20:23])

Carolyn reflects on the interplay between past and present, emphasizing the importance of understanding art as an evolving conversation that bridges generations.

8. Light-Hearted Farewell: What to Take Home from Venice

Timestamp: [29:35] – [31:22]

Wrapping up the episode, guests engage in a playful segment imagining what iconic Venetian elements they'd take home. From Jana’s appreciation for Venice’s architectural details to William’s humorous take on minimalism, the exchange underscores their deep connection to Venice’s artistic heritage.

William Kentridge:
"I feel like with the kind of current debates that are going on, I feel like we should leave things where they are." ([30:58])

Carolyn Christov-Bakargiev:
"I wanted to check. When you've done Documenta, you can kind of speak with anybody." ([29:21])

Conclusion

"The Sparring Partners" episode of CHANEL Connects offers a profound glimpse into the collaborative spirit and intellectual camaraderie between William Kentridge and Carolyn Christov-Bakargiev. Their dialogue not only highlights their individual and joint contributions to contemporary art but also provides thoughtful reflections on the evolving landscape of the art world. Through their shared experiences and visionary outlooks, listeners are inspired to contemplate the future intersections of tradition and innovation in art.

For more engaging conversations and in-depth explorations of art and culture, listen to other episodes of CHANEL Connects available on chanel.com.