Loading summary
Transcript54 lines
- [00:05]
Jana Peel
Welcome to Chanel Connects, the Venice Biennale edition. It's important to be free.
- [00:13]
Michael Rock
So who was the fool who didn't recognize it all that time ago?
- [00:16]
Irma Boom
I think it is seduction. Oh, absolutely. Just another woman trying to survive.
- [00:21]
Jana Peel
So who of them is lying?
- [00:24]
Irma Boom
I wish that were the case. Well, let's face the terror of the new work then. And this is what art is so good at. I don't. Do you prepare?
- [00:31]
Michael Rock
No, no, no.
- [00:33]
Jana Peel
In this season of Chanel Connects, we've taken up residence in Italy to go to the center of the art world. Listen in to the artists, curators, thinkers and makers behind the Venice Biennale, the world's most important exhibition of contemporary art, now in its 60th edition. Each of our guests is focused on what matters most and what happens next. I'm Jana Peel, global head of arts and culture at Chanel. Thank you for connecting with us.
- [01:02]
Michael Rock
Could you tell where my head was at when you found me? Me you went to. Hello.
- [01:11]
Jana Peel
Colleagues and friends. For over 30 years, Michael Rock and Irma Boo meet today in the Palazzo Persico in the City of Books to discuss the art of bookmaking and what it means to be a designer. Irma Boom is widely considered the premier book designer of this generation. Leading the conversation is Michael Rock, the celebrated graphic designer and co founder of 2x4. To begin, Michael tells us about the rich history and craftsmanship of bookmaking.
- [01:47]
Michael Rock
The shift from the handwritten manuscript that had been around for thousands of years to mass produce books famously originated in Germany in the mid 15th century. But within 50 years of Gutenberg creating his Bible, really the center of book production moved here to Venice. And the first shops opened around 1469. But within three years, there were 230 printers in this tiny island. And of course, the most important is Aldous Minutius in the Alden Press. And he was the humanist scholar who really found these classical texts and brought them to the public. And he also known for inventing italic text and even universalizing the use of the comma. So a really important person in writing in general. And then over that next century, there was explosion of books across Europe, where by 1600 there's already 200 million copies of books in Europe. And it was really one of the first capitalist driven mass production businesses, really where you had an entrepreneur printer, an assembly line of workers, and then this product that could be tailored for different audiences, different languages. And so it was really this kind of beginning of not only a new industry, but a new kind of economy. And in the 500 years since then the book has proved to be remarkably durable, resilient medium that we're still, 500 years later, reading them, talking about them, collecting them, and for some of us, making them. So making is the case with Irma and me and Erma Boom and I, Michael Rock, have been friends for colleagues for over 30 years, and Irma's perhaps the premier book designer of our generation. And my practice is maybe more ranging, but books have always been a really central concern as well. So it's a pleasure to meet here in this city of books, the city that practically invented the modern book, and to talk about books and typography, but also about the future of designing them. Irma, welcome to the Palazzo Prestigo. And so happy to see you.
- [03:50]
Irma Boom
Yeah, I'm happy to be here, indeed. And for me, of course, doing also a study at the Vatican Library already for five years, all books lead back to Venice, and for me, doing this study. So what happened to the book is interesting because things change in bookmaking, in typography, because of events of certain circumstances. And that's what I think is also interesting. It's not just that the book is inventing itself now. It is because of certain, sometimes political events or crisis or whatever. And I think that's interesting. And the pocketbook, which was invented in 1501 by Aldous Manucius, is interesting because he was complaining that people were not reading enough. Now we're still complaining that people don't read enough, but already in the 15th century they did. So he thought, let's a cheap book which is very efficient on a sheet of paper in octavo, and then we can mass produce. Mass produce was in that time, instead of 300 copies, you would print 3,000 copies. I'm not sure if it helped, but it was an attempt. And you also said italic. The italic is used already in printed matter, I think, very early on. But he used italic typeface because it's also a very efficient typeface. And italic is Italian, so it's based on the country's name is. How do you say that? You could produce a lot of words on a page. And so the book was also not too thick.
- [05:31]
Michael Rock
There was a political end to that too, because at the time, the government in Venice saw a value in an educated population. And so to get books out to people and to get information out to people was a really critical aspect of it. And we look at these books now for their beauty and for the carefulness of his typography. But there was really a mass communication form and a mass education form. And I think that for hundreds of years, the book was the primary form of educating people, of creating a central reference that people could go back to. And the great theorist Benedict Anderson would say that the book created nationality even because you had a standardized German, you had a standardized French, and you could decide, am I this or am I that? You know, and so typography itself had this way of kind of creating nations out of. Out of the population. And so I think that why it's a really interesting period now to talk about the book is that the job of educating the masses or of getting information out obviously has become.
- [06:24]
Irma Boom
It's now Internet.
- [06:25]
Michael Rock
It's the Internet. And it's become a much broader way. It's a very efficient, fast way to do it. And so that's forced the book into being something else.
- [06:32]
Irma Boom
Yeah, what I really think is the advantage of the book that it's unchangeable. Basically. It was in the 90s of the last century, it was a disadvantage because you couldn't change anything, because then everybody was thinking of Internet. Everything is flux and changes. But I think one of the great qualities of books is the static or the frozen information. Because that's why if you make a book and it's printed basically black and white, you can always revert to that. What people have said in the 15th century. And I think that is an enormous important asset of bookmaking, that some thoughts, you can find them in their original form. And if you compare it to Internet, where we have the flux and the change, you can never reverse to an Internet page because it changes all the time. So it's not a big huge reference. And to make books still now, it remains the same quality, because as basically a bookmaker, the books I'm making now, hopefully they will have good quality and remain for another 100 or 500 or 1000 years. You can always go back to that certain moment it captures. It's a capture of time. And I think that that's an interesting asset.
- [07:51]
Michael Rock
I think one of the points that you're making with the permanence of the book and also that central form of knowledge that can be reverted to is under a real pressure right now. And I think that not only has the Internet obviously made everything faster and broader, but now with this idea of content that can be produced mechanically, but books can be produced one off. Now, one of the great values of the book was it was a mass publication, you had 1,000 of them, that they were all exactly the same. But now we're Entering a period where a book can be made. One book for one person. You mean printing on demand, but also content on demand. So you have basically a large language model which can produce a text, it can go to a printer that can produce a single book and that can be delivered to a single person. So it's almost like a medieval way of thinking about the book, where the breakdown of the central aspect of the book, which was multiplication, the multiplication of ideas.
- [08:46]
Irma Boom
And I think what. For me, a book is the representation and the multiplication. And I think what is a bitter problem now that the book also becomes a status symbol. Of course, it was also in those days, but now it gives status to their being, to their aura. Yeah, exactly. And I think if I feel that, then I'm not doing it. I think making a book costs a lot of energy and time and paper and time of many people. So it's always a collaborative process also as a printer and a binder and a writer's authors.
- [09:22]
Michael Rock
But I think that's a really important transition that's happening because you're getting those kind of requests. And I think that comes from the fact that the book, as a form of just like basic communication and learning, is under pressure from all these other sources. And McLuhan's famous idea that things don't become obsolete, they move toward obsolescence in the sense that they become something different. It's not like books go away, but they become different because you have this new media. And oftentimes his point is that they come back as luxury or they come back as art.
- [09:50]
Irma Boom
Yeah. When it's this luxury thing, I really don't think it works.
- [09:55]
Michael Rock
But that's what so many books are now. Right. Which is that they're. They're luxurious objects that cost $100 or $200 or $500. And they're not really about communicating information or about information.
- [10:05]
Irma Boom
No. It's showcasing something. And it's only just to put on the table. That's why I really hate the word coffee table book. Because it's not a book to use. It's just a book to show off. And I think that's not why we. At least why I'm making books. It's something else. It's sharing information. I think that is a sort of essential and crucial thing. What remains also for the future. Book is the most stable medium ever, I think, because we can still look at even the manuscripts. And so to make books which has a certain sequence, it's all about the sequence and telling a story and content, image, and text. So the moment you have the book in your hand, and I think that's, for me, the trigger, the paper, the materialization. You want to keep it, you want to have it, and you want to see the work.
- [10:56]
Michael Rock
So in a way, you're describing designer as a seducer. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [11:01]
Irma Boom
I think it is seduction.
- [11:02]
Michael Rock
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And I think that maybe it's an interesting thing to talk about, which is like, what is a designer? You know, what is our role in this thing? You know? And I think seduction isn't. We can't discount seduction as being one of those things. And I think that the seduction sounds.
- [11:15]
Irma Boom
Very negative, but it's from the heart. It's not from any commercial thing.
- [11:20]
Michael Rock
But I think that there is, as a designer, you know, a way that you want to communicate an idea which is on top of the thing, the information itself, you know? And I think that it's not an egotistical thing, but it's, in a way, what our authorship is, is the way that we shape content, you know? And the last book I did with Germano, the book for the New York 1963-64 show, we started it when Germano was still alive. He died right in the beginning of it. And I really felt like carrying that book forward for an idea that we had together. And. But it was really also about doing an art catalog that was almost all text and photographs, not of the art, you know, so. Because we were really building the story around a historical moment. 62 to 64 in New York was this amazing moment, and it was the way that all of different historical events were happening, things were happening in the art world, and that there was a complete relationship between them. And so the book could do that in a way the show couldn't. And so in a way, the exhibition of the art was an important thing, but the book almost carried the idea further to a way, I must say.
- [12:19]
Irma Boom
Many times I think a book is better than the exhibition because it's more comprehensive. And basically, a book is space, a book is an exhibition. It was said Siegelaup, who said, catalog as exhibition, exhibition. I think that's what he exactly said. And that's true, because a book is a space, only, of course, it's more linear. It's turning the pages, which I think is a fantastic thing of a book, that you have to do something. You have to take action actually to get hold of the content. Yeah. So I think even if I see the shows here in Venice, then I think, well, maybe if they make a good book, it's more comprehensive to see what the artist means, because you can read the text in a more quiet way. And the book is also more slow, and you can sit at home or you can sit wherever you are. So I think the book has all these assets. But, Michael, how would you describe the role of a designer?
- [13:16]
Michael Rock
Well, I think for me, the designer's always a kind of mediator, that you're negotiating between all these different forces, and you're trying to take your knowledge of the world, your knowledge of economics, your knowledge of people, your knowledge of technology, and bring them together to make something. And so you have lots of pieces and you have lots of flows, and somehow the designer is the person who puts them all in some direction and to some end. And when it works, it's amazing. When it doesn't, it's just chaos. Erma, I think we met 32 years ago now, and we were both teaching at the Yale School of Art at the time. And the world has obviously changed really radically, and design has changed really radically. And I've been thinking a lot about how different the world that we work in is than when we started, you know, both in the technologies we use in the politics of the work that we do and knowing that the world will transform even more radically in the next 30 years. And you're still teaching and talking to students, and so am I. And I'm really thinking about, like, what is it that's important as a designer to know for the next 30 years? Like, what should they carry with them into the future? Because I think a lot about the fact that my students are going to end their career in, like, 2080 or something like that, you know, and in some ways, my theory is that because we don't have any idea how to predict technology or what it's going to do, all we can do is revert to things that we think are more solid, you know, to go back to things that we think are unchangeable, you know? And what are those things? Because I think that if we tried to say, oh, what you should know about is this kind of technology, we know that it's gonna be completely obsolete in five years or something.
- [14:47]
Irma Boom
Yeah. But I think what I would tell students also is to create space, and I think you have to create space for yourself to create, and then freedom, and it gives you also responsibility. I think you should also be responsible for what you're doing, and especially when you are making a book, because it will last for a long time. Because what is interesting, if you make a book or if you make a. Or if you have to make fashion, it's all about the idea. You have to create an idea, a certain way of thinking.
- [15:20]
Michael Rock
But this is, I think, what I'm getting at, which is like, can you get at that way of thinking is the thing that you have to carry with you into the future. Like sequence, narrative space. Those are things that are unchanging in a way, regardless of the technology.
- [15:33]
Irma Boom
Exactly. But the concept of thinking, I think that is interesting. And create space within limits because bookmaking is very limited. And I think if. If you create limits, you can accelerate or. How do you say that in good English? You can be far more creative than when anything is possible. Anything is possible is the most non creative asset. I think maybe I can mention the book I did for Chanel. For me, the ultimate book. Because there is no ink in the book. It's totally embossed. The whole story about how Chanel 5 came to a being is told via text and image, but embossed. So that book doesn't exist as a PDF, which for me, of course is extremely interesting. The PDF is a white, so it doesn't show anything. It only exists in the physical form. There is no digital form of that book. And I think that's so interesting.
- [16:32]
Michael Rock
But I think if you look at that book in. Because of course, both of us now, having worked long enough, have a big enough body to work where you start to see certain kinds of ideas that flow through it. Right. And I think that one thing, that if you're not a designer, you don't always understand that we're often not at all in control of the subjects of our work. It comes from all different sources. Someone asks us to do about a car engine and then this and then that. And so what makes your work, your work is something which is perceptible after you do a lot of it, because you start to see these. These clues of yourself in it somehow. And so you know, the idea of the book that exists purely as an embossing, or the book that exists because of the roughness of it, or something like that. Those are ideas that have origins in early pieces and you see them come back again. And in that way, a designer's work really exists in its treatment because we're.
- [17:22]
Irma Boom
Not creating the timing, time and technique. It's all crucial.
- [17:25]
Michael Rock
Yeah. And I think that that's what's really interesting. When you see a body of somebody's work over a longer time, it's not that it all looks the same, but somehow there's some spirit in it that you can really tell. And I think that's what's the real sign of a body of real design work, that you can feel this kind of consistency or coherence of the work. Even though it's about radically different subjects, it's about radically different things. It takes radically different forms.
- [17:47]
Irma Boom
I think it's an attitude, because if people revert to my work, they say, oh, you have made this and this. It doesn't look the same. No. So it's true, because the subjects are different. It's different time. And it's basically an attitude. I think I have a certain attitude towards a project, and I think that's what you see. And it doesn't mean that there is a style or something. It's really. Yeah, an attitude.
- [18:12]
Michael Rock
That's why I refer to it as a kind of spirit, which is like, you know, it's something that is really not about style so much. It's not really about material or content. It really is something that is almost intangible. And I think that that's really magical about design, which is that you feel something in it. You feel, and you can immediately recognize it. That if you're attuned to that, you can immediately recognize it. And you see sort of like. You kind of see the brain at work. Right. Like how it plays out against this content.
- [18:38]
Irma Boom
But for me, also, artists who work like that, who do silkscreen or photography, somebody like Ellsworth Kelly or in the Netherlands, Dan Van Gogh, who I admire a lot, they use also different techniques, but you can always see it's that artist because of the eye of the artist. And I think, for me, that's super interesting. It's not about the style, because some people or designers, they always do the same. But for me, not so interesting, because everything always changes. You have to change with time, with the subject, and with who you are in 2024, I think that really makes a difference.
- [19:21]
Michael Rock
And I think that goes back to that idea of to create that space for yourself, to find that in yourself, to find it. What is your take on this? What is your perspective? And that can be applied regardless of technology, regardless of material, that it'll. Because that's the human quality to the work, and somehow it's exuded through the work itself. And I think that that's the thing. We have to hold onto this thing, which is, like, really essentially human at the heart of designing something, which is that you bring it to being by going and shepherding all these things together and make something out of that.
- [19:53]
Irma Boom
Yeah. People say the book is dead or something. I think the book is more alive than ever. And the future for the book is. Yeah. Because it's such a stable medium. And also think that you don't make books for the past or present, but books are really made for the future.
- [20:09]
Michael Rock
Well, I think that's a great quality. That's a great segue into the kind of last question that we're asking in this series in general, which is like, what's exciting you about the future of design? And how do we think about that? You know, because by thinking forward, thinking about a book, design for the future. But what do you think about the future of design?
- [20:26]
Irma Boom
Yeah. So I don't. I have this terrible thing that I don't see myself as a designer. I really as a bookmaker, I make books.
- [20:36]
Michael Rock
Okay. Essentially about the future of the bookmaker.
- [20:39]
Irma Boom
No, no. But I think it's crucial because I see a book designer is more a job, is more something you do from nine to five. But making a book so recently, since the last maybe 10 years, I'm also more writing and materialization can be very important. And because the book proved itself as such a stable medium. And I hope it will develop even more. And maybe techniques like heat or cold can also influence what you in the book. I don't know. But I think there's a lot to discover. What we don't know yet. But I see and I hope I become a little bit older, maybe 90 or something. So that means a lot of 30 years that I can make a different kind of book that I'm doing now. I don't know what it is because I cannot look in the future, but I guess there will be. Because also the structure of the book changed over time because of the paragraph. So I can imagine that we have find new structures of making books.
- [21:48]
Michael Rock
So that'll keep you busy for the next 30 years.
- [21:49]
Irma Boom
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
- [21:51]
Michael Rock
Well, thanks, Irma. It's so great to see you and talk to you as always. And so I'm glad to be here.
- [21:56]
Irma Boom
With you and thank you for inviting me. It was very nice. Thank you.
- [21:59]
Michael Rock
Thanks.
- [22:03]
Jana Peel
Thank you. To Michael Rock and Irma Boom. Now we asked this year's Biennale guests wears their face favorite spot to watch the sunset in Venice. I personally have seen many a sunrise from the rooftop of the Danieli Hotel sipping my first espresso of the day.
- [22:21]
Michael Rock
San Giorgio Maggiore, I think would be a beautiful place to watch the sun rise because you have such a beautiful view on the whole islands like this standpoint that you can't get anywhere else because it gives you kind of overall view on the city, you know, from Giudecca to Soduro to the Punta della Dogana to the San Marco and the Giardini and everything. So I think it's one of the most beautiful views of the city.
- [22:47]
Jana Peel
The rooftop of the Danieli never gets better. The way the sun falls over San Maggiore can't be beat.
- [22:56]
Irma Boom
I like to watch the sunset when I'm near the Ciardini, because usually I'm still filled with the art and, you know, all the good things that I saw. So then, yeah, looking out for the.
- [23:05]
Jana Peel
Sun, for something bigger than art. I really like any sort of incredible balcony overlooking the canal with an incredible drink in your hand, watching the boats, feeling like you're definitely only in Venice. Thank you so much to all of our contributors who joined us in Venice for the 60th edition of the Biennale. Thank you for listening to Chanel Connects the Venice Biennale edition. Now, the number five is very important in the house of Chanel, so please consider giving us five stars on whatever platform. You're listening to us. Please follow the show so you don't miss an episode. Next time, I get to sit down with Adriano Pedrosa, curator of the 60th Art Exhibition of the Venice Biennale and artistic director of the Sao Paulo Museum of Art. We discuss his theme, Foreigners Everywhere, Tranieri, Avunque, what it takes to pull such a monumental exhibition together, and, of course, what matters most and what's coming next. Thank you for listening. Looking forward to seeing you next week.
- [24:25]
Michael Rock
Sam.