Daniel Gokey on Past Trauma & His Battle with Scrupulous OCD (EXCLUSIVE)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Change Your Brain Every Day Episode: "Danny Gokey on Past Trauma & His Battle with Scrupulous OCD (EXCLUSIVE)" Release Date: March 31, 2025

In this deeply personal and enlightening episode of "Change Your Brain Every Day," hosted by Dr. Daniel Amen and Tana Amen, musician Danny Gokey opens up about his lifelong struggle with scrupulous OCD—a subtype of obsessive-compulsive disorder characterized by religious or moral obsessions. This conversation delves into Danny's painful experiences, his journey toward healing, and the innovative approaches to mental health that Dr. Amen advocates.

Introduction to Danny Gokey's Struggles (00:00 - 06:00)

The episode begins with Danny Gokey recounting his childhood experiences, marked by intense fear and obsessive thoughts about sinning against God. At the age of six, Danny would avoid using the bathroom without his father's permission, fearing eternal damnation. This fear manifested physically, causing him to develop scabs from excessive hand-washing and back pain from sitting upright too rigidly.

Danny Gokey:
"I remember them making fun because I'm eating a bowl of cereal and I'm crying because I don't want to use the bathroom because I've somehow contrived in my mind I'm sinning against God if I go to the bathroom without my dad's permission." ([00:00])

Understanding Scrupulous OCD (06:00 - 16:00)

Dr. Amen introduces the concept of scrupulous OCD, explaining how it intertwines religious beliefs with obsessive thoughts. Danny shares how these intrusive thoughts led him to severe anxiety, depression, and other compulsive behaviors throughout his life. Despite seeking help multiple times, Danny felt that no one truly understood or addressed the root of his condition.

Dr. Daniel Amen:
"Every day you are making your brain better or you are making it worse. Stay with us to learn how you can change your brain for the better every day." ([00:29])

Impact on Personal Relationships and Family (16:00 - 27:00)

Danny discusses the profound impact his OCD had on his relationships, particularly with his wife and children. He reveals how his obsessive fears resurfaced following traumatic events, such as the loss of his wife, leading to deep depressive episodes. This not only strained his marriage but also affected his ability to parent, as he became hyper-aware of signs of OCD in his children.

Danny Gokey:
"So now it's to get me to a healthier place, of course, but also to recognize it in my children, because this is something that wasn't talked about at all." ([04:24])

Dr. Amen’s Brain-Based Approach (27:00 - 40:00)

Dr. Amen explains his brain-based approach to mental health, emphasizing the importance of understanding brain activity through SPECT imaging. He reveals that Danny's brain scans show a highly active anterior cingulate gyrus—a region associated with the brain's suffering circuit. Dr. Amen suggests that balancing Danny's brain activity can significantly alleviate his symptoms.

Dr. Daniel Amen:
"We have some of the best published outcomes anywhere. Go to amenclinics.com to learn more." ([01:19])

Highlight Quote:
"It's the hardware that pushed you to suffer. And if we calm the hardware, balance the hardware, you are going to feel so much better." ([40:02])

Therapeutic Strategies and Supplements (40:00 - 50:00)

The discussion shifts to practical strategies for managing OCD and mental health challenges. Dr. Amen recommends natural supplements like Saffron, zinc, and curcumin as alternatives to traditional SSRIs like Lexapro. He also introduces supplements tailored for Danny’s children to prevent potential OCD symptoms, emphasizing a comprehensive, personalized approach to brain health.

Dr. Daniel Amen:
"We're going to calm it down... We'll work on this. This is really important." ([42:09])

Danny Gokey:
"I love that. I think that's a great way to put it." ([44:10])

Hope and Moving Forward (50:00 - End)

Despite the long and arduous journey, Danny expresses hope and determination to overcome his struggles. He acknowledges the residue of past traumas but remains committed to healing and helping others facing similar challenges. Dr. Amen provides actionable steps, including taking specific supplements and considering EMDR therapy, to support Danny’s path to recovery.

Danny Gokey:
"I love that. I think that's a great way to put it." ([44:10])

Dr. Daniel Amen:
"We're going to target that specific thought... And our job is to balance it." ([24:16])

Key Takeaways:

• Understanding Scrupulous OCD: A subtype of OCD involving religious or moral obsessions that can severely impact daily functioning and relationships.
• Brain-Based Approach: Utilizing SPECT imaging to understand and balance brain activity, particularly in regions associated with suffering and compulsive behaviors.
• Holistic Treatment: Combining natural supplements, personalized therapy, and innovative treatments like EMDR to address the multifaceted nature of OCD and past trauma.
• Hope and Resilience: Despite enduring significant personal trauma and mental health challenges, Danny Gokey remains hopeful and committed to healing, highlighting the importance of perseverance and comprehensive care.

Notable Quotes:

• Danny Gokey:
  "I did not want to go to hell. Maybe that's the underlying fear." ([00:00])

• Dr. Daniel Amen:
  "With a better brain, everything in your life is better." ([02:26])

• Danny Gokey:
  "I've gone through so much hurt, because I've gone through so much pain, so much anxiety." ([19:41])

• Dr. Daniel Amen:
  "We have to balance your brain's activity to help you feel better." ([40:02])

Conclusion:

This episode offers a profound look into the complexities of scrupulous OCD and the transformative power of a brain-focused approach to mental health. Danny Gokey's candid sharing serves as both a personal catharsis and a beacon of hope for listeners grappling with similar struggles. Dr. Daniel Amen and Tana Amen provide not only understanding but also actionable solutions, reinforcing the podcast's mission to empower individuals to take control of their brain and overall well-being.

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For more insights and resources on brain and mental health, visit amenclinics.com and explore Amen University at amenuniversity.com with the special offer code provided during the episode.

Transcript

[Danny Gokey]

I remember them making fun because I'm eating a bowl of cereal and I'm crying because I don't want to use the bathroom because I've somehow contrived in my mind I'm sinning against God if I go to the bathroom without my dad's permission. So got a full bladder, tears in my eyes, family making fun of me, a frustrated dad. Just go to the bathroom. Just go to the bathroom. You don't have to ask, but you don't understand. The way my mind works is that I did not want to go to hell. Maybe that's the underlying fear.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Every day you are making your brain better or you are making it worse. Stay with us to learn how you.

[Tana Amen]

Can change your brain for the better every day.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

In this week's episode of the Change youe Brain Everyday podcast, I am joined by musician Danny Goke. Daniel was the third place finalist on the eighth season of American Idol. Daniel and I discuss his battle with with scrupulosity. Scrupulosity is a subtype of obsessive compulsive disorder involving religious or moral obsessions. This part of Daniel's life has never been shared before. Publicly. I hope you enjoy this conversation.

[Tana Amen]

Are you struggling with anxiety, depression, obsessive thinking, past emotional trauma, ADHD, or brain fog and don't know where to turn? Are your relationships a mess and you don't know why? Have you had a brain injury, concussion, or just don't feel the same after Covid? Is your memory worse than it was 10 years ago? Or do you have a parent or grandparent with dementia and want to work on prevention? Yes, prevention is possible, but the sooner you start, the better. For 35 years, we've been changing people's brains and their lives using brain SPECT imaging and a personalized natural approach to brain and mental health care. And we have some of the best published outcomes anywhere. Go to amenclinics.com to learn more. And when you call us, mention podcast 10 for a 10% discount.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

The big idea is with a better brain, everything in your life is better.

[Danny Gokey]

Okay.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

And you have tried to get help.

[Danny Gokey]

Yeah.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

But no one's looked at your brain.

[Danny Gokey]

Nobody.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

And if you don't look at the brain, you're flying blind.

[Danny Gokey]

Yeah.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

And I'm sort of not okay with that. And as much as you suffered, you've actually not gotten great help.

[Danny Gokey]

No.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

So I read your history. Thank you for doing that. I looked at your checklist. Thank you for doing that. I looked at your testing. I've looked at your scans. I Have a good idea what's going on, do you?

[Danny Gokey]

Because I got confused through all of.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

It, and we've actually never done a show on scrupulous ocd.

[Danny Gokey]

Yep.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

And.

[Danny Gokey]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

But yours fits that. Yeah. But it's like, well, why do you have this? And I want to hear from you your goals. That's always.

[Danny Gokey]

Okay.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

The first thing I'm really interested in.

[Danny Gokey]

Okay. So my goals are to just have a healthier. Me personally, I don't think I realized till I was in my 40s that a lot of this is unhealthy because my coping mechanisms went so far deep that I didn't realize they were coping mechanisms. I just. These things I went to to get out of my, you know, my falls when I felt like I was falling and I couldn't get out of the darkness. But so now it's to get me to a healthier place, of course, but also to recognize it in my children, because this is something that wasn't talked about at all. And this could have. I think it could have been talked about my family, because I think there's other people suffering with it and kind of made their way through it. I just suffered with it for a very long time.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Okay. So hope healing.

[Danny Gokey]

Yeah.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

And then helping your family.

[Danny Gokey]

Yeah, my kids, especially, because I feel like I've noticed some of the things already in them that I went through as a kid that I didn't tell anybody.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Like what?

[Danny Gokey]

So scrupulosity is a religious type of ocd. I had. So being raised in a really fundamental, like, very. My grandfather got saved at 40, became a Christian at 40. I mean, you know, he started a church. We started going to the church, but it was a very strict church. And maybe if I. If I were to say this probably to my family. I think I've talked to my dad about this, and my dad's like, no, we weren't. We weren't that way. So there's one way that I've walked away from that. Maybe it was just how I receive things. Right. I think I've come to learn in my 40s that maybe they weren't strict. Maybe just my receptors and my perspective of what they were teaching just hit me in a certain way where I was like, oh, my God, I'm gonna go to hell if I sin. I better get this act together. Right. So part of the OCD that started is I couldn't control my thoughts, so I'd have very horrible, terrible thoughts against God, against Jesus. And that freaked me out. Because instead of just letting a thought pass through me, all of a sudden, the thought was there and something's wrong with me, even though I didn't want this thought. And so that's where the downward spiral started in my life. But I wouldn't tell a single soul. I remember having a dream as a kid where I. I remember in the dream, I told my dad, like, dad, these thoughts are in my brain. I don't want them. Like, thoughts were like, f God, F Jesus. I mean, as gets. I don't even like saying that, you know, because this has affected me so much. But. And I remember my dream, my dad was like, you cannot think that way that you're going to hell. And of course, that wasn't. Wouldn't have been my dad's response had I told him. But anyways, so.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

But it was your brain's response.

[Danny Gokey]

It was my brain response. And so now you. The question was, how am I recognizing my kids? A couple years ago, I noticed my son, my oldest son, he must have been around 7 years old. I heard him say, shut up. Something. I just heard him say, shut up. And he was sharing a room with his brother Gabriel at the time, and his brother Gabriel would have been about three years old. I go, danny, what'd you say? And he got real timid. Danny, what'd you say? I walked back to his room while he's in bed. He said. I said, shut up, devil. I go, oh, what I recognize right away, he goes, daddy. I get these thoughts in my head. Stupid God, stupid God, stupid God. It won't stop. And immediately, at like, he was six or seven, I was able to tell him, danny, those are not your thoughts. Number one, there's nothing wrong with you. I used to struggle with that when I was. But I didn't get too much into my story. I was like, you need to know that there's nothing wrong with you. And when those thoughts come, you don't have to fight them, just let them pass right through. But for me as a kid, it meant so much because something was wrong with me. I needed to fix that. And that's where the OCD and the coping and the ritual started, with, like, over washing my hands, sitting up straight. I remember if a teacher. Like, I would follow Law City. If a teacher said, you got to shut up straight because your back, you know, it's good for your back. That was a law. And if I didn't do that, that was a sin against God. And so I had back pain as a kid. Scabs all over My hands. I couldn't even use the bathroom. I remember my dad got frustrated with me. I'm laughing now, but, you know, it wasn't funny at the time because I couldn't even use the bathroom without my dad's permission. I remember my dad said, wash your hands before you eat. If I touch my lip while putting the chip in my mouth, that means my lip wasn't washed. I need to go back, wash my hands. And that's how I got scabs. There's. There is a thought process that go. I'm spitballing right here. But there's a thought process that goes along with why this could be a sin and how I better avoid it. I remember my father, my sisters, and my. I have four sisters and a brother. I remember them making fun of me because I'm eating a bowl of cere and I'm crying because I don't want to use the bathroom because I've somehow contrived in my mind I'm sinning against God if I go to the bathroom without my dad's permission. So got a full bladder, tears in my eyes, family making fun of me, a frustrated dad. Just go to the bathroom. Just go to the bathroom. You don't have to ask, but you don't understand. The way my mind worked is that I did not want to go to hell. Maybe that's the underlying fear. I don't know.

[Tana Amen]

So when did that start?

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Do you remember?

[Danny Gokey]

I think as low as 6 years old. I think I remember as a young kid. This is so weird.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

I would.

[Danny Gokey]

I don't know why this was a thing, but maybe five or four years old, I would start betting God on things. I bet God that I can kick that soccer ball to that. I don't know that. As weird as it sounds, there's a connection right there. And then I remember playing soccer around 7 or 8 years old and starting to think like, lord, if you don't hold the universe together, if you mess up. And I remember thinking. I remember having this conversation with God playing soccer. If you sin, we're all. We're all screwed. We're all screwed. Don't sin. Don't mess this world up. As I process talking with you, it was just fear after fear after fear after fear.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

And you're saying, if you sin.

[Danny Gokey]

Yeah, because we're all going to hell already, but if you sin, you can't even save us. Oh, God, if you got. Yeah, God, if you said so.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Interesting. My brain went to just thinking about that. It's such a young Age.

[Danny Gokey]

I don't know why in my head.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

I'm going, I wonder what his temporal lobes look like. Because that's where a lot of religiosity comes from.

[Danny Gokey]

I don't even know what that is.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

So the temporal lobes are underneath your temples, behind your eyes. They're on each side. And there's a researcher in Canada, Michael Persinger, and when he stimulates the outside of your right temporal lobe, people have a sensed presence. They feel the presence of God in the room. So if God's gonna communicate with us, there's gonna be a neuroscience pathway for that to happen. But sometimes if that's busy that. I've seen this a lot in little kids. It's like you're six and you're worried about going to hell. Now if you had my mother, she told me, I think I told a lie or not. Anyways, when I was six, she started crying and said, I never thought I was going to have a son who was going to hell. So your mind said that if I.

[Tana Amen]

Had your brain, that would, oh, could.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

You mess me up? Probably already messed me up. So this started early.

[Danny Gokey]

Start early. I stayed home from school sick about a week. I must have been maybe 10 or 11 years old because I was so scared I was going to hell. I got physically sick. I didn't tell anyone. I just buried myself in my sheets and I would. This is like a pervading thought. Throughout my whole life was that fear. And I thought I overcame it, but it would trickle up in other different areas. And so for most scrupulosity and OCD years, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the fear. And that was the fear when I was a kid. I've committed the unpardonable sin, I can't go. Which was blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Just don't have an understanding of it.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

But because you had those blasphemous thoughts, almost like Tourette thoughts.

[Danny Gokey]

Yeah, definitely like Tourette thoughts on a wheel. When my six year old son said, stupid guy was on a wheel, well, I could relate to that. It just won't stop. Won't stop, won't stop. Just f God.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

So it's like a little mouse on an exercise wheel. Yeah. It can't get off.

[Danny Gokey]

Yeah. And so I think it might.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

And nobody noticed this or it sounds like they did.

[Danny Gokey]

Like I think people noticed, but with this, I don't think they did. I mean, I'm sitting up straight to the point of back pain. I can't go use the bathroom now. Remember These are seasons in my life. I hyperventilated. I remember one time my mom, I would have anxiety attacks and the doctor said, breathe into a paper bag. I don't know what that does, but I remember being pulled out of classroom if I'd have an anxiety attack in class and breathing into a bag. It's really hard to explain. I just, maybe I didn't tell anyone. You just kind of seal it up, shut it away because you're ashamed, you're full of shame and you're embarrassed. That's a huge thing. I don't want people seeing my flaws because will they accept me?

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Okay, so intrusive thoughts.

[Danny Gokey]

Oh, yeah.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

What kind of compulsive behaviors did you have? Well, you talked about washing your hands to the point where you had scabs.

[Danny Gokey]

Yeah, this is going to get. See, there's probably a whole plethora of people that listen to this podcast, so some are going to understand this, some won't. In, in the faith, I, I, I always had this fear for years of God leaving me. So some of the coping mechanisms were like, open up the Bible to a verse and just God speak to me in this moment. You know what I'm saying? If that didn't happen, oh, he's left me. It's always a fear of God leave me. I need a prophetic word. I need a visitation from God. I need, you know, it's some hyper spiritual thing to happen to bring assurance. So people who struggle with OCD and religious OCDs, they need assurance. Non stop. God, are you with me? God, are you here? I feel like I'm abandoned by you. And if I felt like I was abandoned by God. You want to talk about a spiral? Spiral and, and go into a deep place of depression. I mean, it's happened more times than I can count, you know, because you just don't have a grasp on a, you don't have a solid foundation to stand on. So therefore you're doing some really weird things to get that assurance.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

So as I looked at your history, these seem to be the important things to me. The first time you tried to get help, you were in your 30s.

[Danny Gokey]

I didn't tell, I told someone, a youth pastor at 20 years old, what I was going through, because it got me to a point at 20, at 20 years old. So I was able to conquer it by the grace of God. Like something happened in my life, this thing that happened with God that just really kind of cleared it all up. And I got into a really good place. And then around 20 years old. It kind of. The door opened back up through, I think, some painful, traumatic events that happened. It opened back up and then there. So I, like, I left my hometown at 8, at 20 years old. Milwaukee, Wisconsin. And I went to Minneapolis to live with a youth pastor and his wife. That were really influential on me. And I remember telling him, finally just letting it out. Like, this is what I've gone through my whole life. I've never told a soul. At 20 years old, I told him, you know, he didn't know what to do about it. He had never heard of it. You know, at that point, I made it. I'm not telling a single person after this. I just literally laid out the depths of who I was to who you are. You didn't have an answer. I thought maybe if I got this out that I'd get an answer and I'd feel better. Didn't get better. So I sealed up like a vault again. And I remember I got married at 24. I moved back to Wisconsin, got married at 24. And I remember on my wedding day, one of the thoughts that sticks out is I remember just sitting at the wedding table and just telling myself, my wife has no idea who I am. I'm a horrible person. I'm a blasphemer. I'm a. I'm a. I've committed the unpardonable sin. She doesn't know this now, mind you. Everything else was, I love the Lord. I was at church. I was a worship leader. I was serving. I had no. No desire to want to blaspheme God. But you had these thoughts, right? And so just. You hide these thoughts that are on these cycles at times. Thoughts that would make me go. And I drop her off at home and I go vomit in a parking lot because I'm so stressed out. I'm so stressed out. Like, I'm. These thoughts are on wheels again. You know what I'm saying? Anyways, then she passes away. That's another traumatic event that happens in my life.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

So, like, I want to. I want to hear about that. You know, I call these thoughts ants. Automatic negative thoughts. The thoughts that come into your mind automatically and ruin your day and it becomes an infestation. And so you need an anteater in your head to just, like, hunt them down and move them out or turn them into protein. And there's nowhere in school that teaches you to manage the nonsense in your head?

[Danny Gokey]

No.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Isn't that crazy?

[Danny Gokey]

It is. And I even think, in my case, I don't know if. Because I made agreements with it every time I. The thoughts would happen, and I would try to fight back, that they just got, like, more. They got stronger.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Yeah. But no, that's an undisciplined, fearful mind. If you write them down and then correct them, I'll show you how.

[Danny Gokey]

Okay.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Over time, they go away. Or if they become like the weather and there's a storm, but you let it pass. They have developed grooves in your brain or ruts in your brain, and the more you're afraid of them, the more stronger they become.

[Danny Gokey]

That now that makes sense.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

And to me, we'll work on. We'll work on this. This is really important. And a good OCD therapist should have helped you become masterful at killing the ants.

[Danny Gokey]

It's interesting, though. Like, these things aren't much of a thing anymore. I feel like it's shifted. Now that I'm 44 years old, it shifted over to, like, It's a. I don't even know how to explain it. There's just maybe other obsessions now. You know what I'm saying? It's turned into. Because I was able to, like, make some really big strides in my 20s and 30s and getting them out. At 33, I finally told my. So my wife passes away. That's a whole story in itself. But I get remarried, and finally, at 33, I share with my wife and my manager what was going on. They just, like. I told him I had this deep, dark secret that I've never really told anybody. And when I told them, I think they just thought it was. I was like, out. Say this. I don't say this flippantly, but they literally thought I was, like, maybe being a child molester. And I told them, I have these. And I was like, no, I have these thoughts. So they kind of laughed it off. Like. Like, oh, my gosh, you're okay. But in my head, I'm like, I'm not okay. It's interesting, the dichotomy when I. When I went and shared that with them, like, they were really. They thought it was something else, but they don't understand. My whole life, this was so important to me, how I thought about God, how I view God, am I accepted by God, you know? So telling people has not been the strongest answer. I did go see some therapies and some therapists. I feel like nobody ever had an answer, and I don't want to blame them. Could it have been me? Like a. Like I said before in the beginning.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Of this podcast, did anybody look at your brain?

[Danny Gokey]

No. And that's the difference. That's. But maybe it was my.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

So we have part of the answer. We have part of the answer. And you did some intense therapy and you said that was helpful.

[Danny Gokey]

Yeah, I've done some. I did intensive not too long ago. Just because I noticed that. I think all through the years of all that emotion is caught up with me and it's in my, you know what, that book, the Body Keeps a Score. I think now I am reaping what has been sowed all those years right now. I think one of my most difficult dispositions is my emotions because I've gone through so much hurt, because I've gone through so much pain, so much anxiety. I mean, Ty said live in anxiety, unhealthy anxiety. And on top of that, I'm a Christian singer. So you're supposed to be this, this hopeful person giving message of hope and a message of Christ, but then on the inside you're falling apart, you know? And that's almost like, what do they call it? A dissonance. That's not. That's not good.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Yeah. Except everybody suffers.

[Danny Gokey]

Yeah.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Right. I tried to do a study on normal people. Was so hard to find. Was so hard. We screened 3,000 people to find 128 normal people and this was our definition of normal. You never had a psychiatric illness? Not a substance abuser, didn't have a head injury. You're not in any medicine. You don't have a first degree relative mother, father, sibling or child with a psychiatric illness. Wow. Normal is the city in Illinois or the setting on a dryer. You're normal. Right. More than 50% of the population will have a psychiatric illness at some point in their life. So welcome to normal. Now, it's not helpful or optimal for you because it's created a lot of suffering. But I used to get this thought in my head when I was a young psychiatrist that if I like, I think you're really awesome and you're normal and I want to get to know you. If I had that thought, within three weeks, they would be in my office telling me about their disastrous marriage, telling me about the nightmares, telling me about their molestation. I'm like, just the human condition. It's part of why Jesus died.

[Danny Gokey]

Yeah.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

For us. Because we have all fallen short of the glory of God.

[Danny Gokey]

Yeah.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

So, all right. Sometimes you take Lorazepam if you're really feeling anxious. How often does that happen?

[Danny Gokey]

I mean, it's like the last ditch effort, I think. Have a bottle from a year and a half ago with only 30 pills in it. That still has probably about 15 in it.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Okay, so not off.

[Danny Gokey]

But. But let me tell you, I probably should have. Here's the thing. I'm a doer. Religious. Got to fix myself. White knuckle my way through.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Well, why don't we fix you without that?

[Danny Gokey]

Yeah, sounds good.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

That's addictive and can mess with your memory.

[Danny Gokey]

I like that.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Yeah. Would not be on top of my list. I mean, maybe 12, but not in the top 10.

[Danny Gokey]

Okay.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Melatonin. Magnesium. Help you sleep.

[Danny Gokey]

Yep.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

DHT blocker. Why?

[Danny Gokey]

Try not to lose my hair.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Okay. That's what we thought. Multiple vitamin. Fish oil. Turmeric.

[Danny Gokey]

Yes.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Theonine. Does theonine help?

[Danny Gokey]

I don't know. I got desperate. When I'm in a painful situation, if I'm. If things are hurting inside, I'll just go like to a Whole Foods or something like that and just what's good for the brain. That's exactly what I go to for the aisle. What's good for the brain because it's just little.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Be a little more targeted for you. Whole Foods.

[Danny Gokey]

Okay.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

You filled out the checklist. Thank you. These are the ones I sort of look at and think are important. Some depression. Sleep's not awesome. Feeling worthless, helpless, hopeless, guilty, easily distracted. Panic attacks. Get stuck. Worry. Some compulsive behaviors. Experiencing recurring and upsetting thoughts about a past traumatic event. What would that be?

[Danny Gokey]

I think going back to this. And people might not understand this, when you think that you've committed the unpardonable sin, it will. There are people who are in mental hospitals because of that, because they feel like that God is executing.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

We're going to work. We're going to target that specific thought.

[Danny Gokey]

But that's the. That's the. That was. The thought has driven me through many depressions, many sleepless nights, many worrisome days, many. I mean, as much as I can tell you is, am I okay with God now on this side, I will tell you I am. I believe I am because of what Jesus did on the cross. But all those years of that has left a residue, a residue of. I mean, I thought there's times I just wasn't going to make it. I mean, I went through something a year and a half ago that. That made once again triggered something on the inside of me that made me feel like maybe God's not with me. And it set me down a rabbit hole so deep. This is 2023. We're 2025 now, but 2023, this happened. And I thought I was good. I Thought I was out. I thought I was clean. I'd making some good strides and to the point where I mean it was like I was having breakdowns I could barely make I'm on tour and I could barely make it sometimes anyways.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Yeah you have episodes of depression with that are really clear but I feel.

[Danny Gokey]

Like it's deep in my.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

But you've never taken an antidepressant which I find frustrating.

[Danny Gokey]

Well because I actually did go see a psychologist and I cried the whole time this 2018 I cried my wife usually you need to do this like kind of made me like making a deal with me like I can't. You need to be here for the kids. We need you. Like I can't carry all this weight. But I just in that situation I'm broken and unfixable. That's the only thing I could think about in that. In that psychologist and then the psychologist. I'm just gonna say this. It was just I felt like a number did and could be my perspective don't want to cast. I'm just learning my perspective at time might be skewed which is why I'm in the emotional state that I've been in an a.m. i can't sit there just point the finger at people because maybe people were well intended maybe that she was. I didn't do a little care at that time and I didn't get the care that I wanted from her. But I totally and maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong on this. I totally believe a lot of my issues have been self inflicted have been self caused not this is not me shaming myself has been just didn't know how to deal with things and so I went to a very fear mode instead of just a love mode being I'm accepted, I'm okay. You know what I mean?

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Well there's another choice in there which is your brain was over firing.

[Danny Gokey]

Yeah.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

And that wasn't a choice. It's like you have a heart arrhythmia and you're like stop it. It's like you can't.

[Danny Gokey]

Yeah. And then my wife passing away. That also wasn't what happened with that. Tell me so got married. You know met her at church. 17 years old. She was 16 and she had a heart condition. Born with it. We prayed and believed that God was going to heal her. She had a surgery at when she was born. It's called tricuspid atresia surgery when she was born when I met her.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

So for people who don't know that that means one of her heart valves.

[Danny Gokey]

Yeah.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Didn't develop.

[Danny Gokey]

Didn't develop.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Right.

[Danny Gokey]

So they had a surgery right away to make sure they can get oxygen to her heart. And so when I met her, she, they have that little zipper scar they call a zipper. I don't forget what the technical term, but it's known as zipper. I met her at church. You know, you see a scar, oh, the doctor's fixed you, you're okay. Well, first year of marriage, we dated for six years. I was 24. Yeah, I was 24. No, 25 at the time. And she's 24, her heart's beating out of her chest. Just walking upstairs and we take her to hospital. We have to have another surgery. Very long story short, we're believing God, that you're going to heal, you're going to do a miracle. God, we need you. She ends up, the first surgery goes wrong, has to get on an artificial heart, on a transplant list in two week period. We're praying, believing God, she passes away. And once again, it triggered me into a place God has abandoned.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

That's so traumatic.

[Danny Gokey]

God didn't hear my prayer. Yeah, I, I appreciate it. I mean, I mean, thank you.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

I should say, because you see God heal some people and not others. And that's confusing.

[Danny Gokey]

At that time it was, I mean, it was, it was.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

I went to Oral Roberts University.

[Danny Gokey]

Oh, no way.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

So. Or was faith healer.

[Danny Gokey]

He was the faith healer. I mean, I've got. These are, these are people of the faith who went on and did great.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

But not everybody was healed. And God uses doctors to heal people and still people go to the next place. Yeah, right. So and if you have faith, you believe this isn't it. Right. We're sort of all condemned to die. There's a great piece. You're filming this during the LA fires and there's a great piece CS Lewis wrote in 1948 about the atomic bomb. And he's like, why are you so upset that the scientists have found yet another way to kill you when you're all condemned to death? And if you're in the 16th century, the plague visited London almost every year. And the Scandinavian, the Vikings could come at any moment and slit your throat.

[Danny Gokey]

Right.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Like, he's like, still, we're in the age of cancer, heart disease, car accidents. It's like, you know, if the bomb comes or the fire comes, let it find us doing thoughtful things like talking to our kids.

[Danny Gokey]

Or did he have. I kind of heard that he might have had some depression issues.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

He had depression. He lost his wife, Y. In fact, he wrote one of my favorite books of his called A Severe Mercy, which is the grief he went through and losing his wife. It's a beautiful, sad look.

[Danny Gokey]

Wow.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Yeah. So I think you'll like it. Anyways, back to you. Do you ever think you had add?

[Danny Gokey]

Oh, yeah. Tell me I'm even in this conversation. I've noticed how. How calm and still. And I could probably run circles around you. Just all my things I gotta say. And I'm observing that. I'm like, hey, Danny, follow the lead right here. But in my mind, that's add. Yeah, right. Attention Deficit Disorder. Because, I mean, my brain is like, I'm all these places, and I want to get all this information out to you, but I'm noticing the calmness. I'm like, well, he doesn't have add. I think I have add.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Well, I just noticed some. So in the checklist. Trouble sustaining attention. Easily distracted. Problems completing projects. I gave you a whole bunch to do ahead of time, and you did it at the last minute. And I'm like, oh. Because I was, like, so prepared. And I'm like, where are my checklists?

[Danny Gokey]

And that's me. And they're like, the last minute drives my team crazy. Who work. People who work for me.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Better brain, Better life. Better brain. Less stress on our loved ones.

[Danny Gokey]

Yes.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Okay. I always see people in four big circles. So it's not. You have scrupulous ocd. Take Lexapro. Although I might. We might talk about that. I always see people in four big circles. It's like, what's going on in your brain? And most psychiatrists never look. So last year, there were 340 million prescriptions written for antidepressants, and nobody looked at their brain. And that's insane.

[Danny Gokey]

Yeah. That was the one thing that I thought was unique about your approach, is that I've told a few people what I'm doing, and they go, wow, that makes a lot of sense. Like, it's eye opening, but yet it's not, like, standard for.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Right. And people call me crazy, and I'm not crazy. So the first big circle. And the first week of medical school at oru, the dean came in our classroom and drew these four big circles on that.

[Danny Gokey]

Right.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Never think of your patient as their diagnosis. Think of them in these four circles. So the first one is biology. What's going on in your brain and your body? The psychology. How are your thoughts? What's your development? Like, the social circle. It's like, what's going on in your life now? It Would not surprise anybody. Well trained that things got worse when your wife died because clearly traumatic. And it's the brain you bring into the trauma that often determines how you handle the trauma. And so you know, as we think about the LA fires who's going to develop ptsd? A lot of people, but often people who brought trauma into that traumatic. Yeah, that's.

[Danny Gokey]

That's a whole bar you just dropped right there. Because I've noticed my ability to cope with since it's been like one trauma after another. I love how you put that because he put the words exactly what I. I would feel at times like I can't handle anything else. Like that's that anything else going to break me in this moment because I'm so. Yes, I digress. But that. That's a great way to put it. Bringing a traumatic brain to a traumatic situation. That's not a good. Which is why people go. Which is why when I take lorazepam is because dude, I was like it's time to check out, pop a pill and just fall asleep.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

And then there's a spiritual circle which is ultimately why you care. And for whatever reason that dominated you. So it was probably a combination of all these things that you had a vulnerable biology as we'll see. Because I think you wrote your grandfather had ocd.

[Danny Gokey]

My dad. Your dad, possibly grandfather. Don't know because I didn't ever get to ask.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

So somebody in your family and a child might have tendencies. So there's some genetic vulnerability. And then if. If you were not raised in a religious family might have come out in other ways. It just came out in that way because God became really important.

[Danny Gokey]

Yes. And just to clarify, my dad had the same thing scrupulosity but they even more so had no words for it.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Right.

[Danny Gokey]

He just had these thoughts, these blasphemies that go through his mind. Freaked him out. He'd have to leave. My mom had six kids and they had my dad and mom had six kids. Have to go to my grandparents house. My grandfather pastor. And they'd have to just try to work through it because it would just take everything away. But I didn't get to find this out for years later. Which is interesting. Poses a question. And I love my dad and hope maybe hope he doesn't hear this because you know it's. But I think about like I wonder why, why. How did you not not recognize that in me as a kid. Maybe he did and he just did his best he could, you know.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

And maybe it triggered him that he felt Shame about it or was anxious.

[Danny Gokey]

Because as a kid, when I would have those thoughts, I'd go to my parents room, I'd wake up my dad and I would never. I tell dad, wake up. So he'd come to my room, wake him out of a dead sleep. And I'm like, dad, I have these really bad thoughts I don't want to think about why are they. No, I don't want to tell you. So I would never tell him. And so what he would do is just give me like Philippians 4, 8. These are the things to think on. So I think he tried. But I was a vault. So I found out. We've now had discussions in my 30s and 40s about how he had the same thing and how he worked through it.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

And you know, well, and maybe the reason you had it is you would share the pain and help thousands of people.

[Danny Gokey]

That's the hope.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

All things work together for good.

[Danny Gokey]

That's a life verse too.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

I'm sorry.

[Danny Gokey]

Yeah, that's a life verse. But all things work together for the good and for those who love the Lord.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Yeah. So not for everybody, but was talking to somebody recently. It's like I would have changed this and I would have changed that and I would have changed this decision and then I wouldn't be me. And I'm sort of okay with me.

[Danny Gokey]

Okay. Maybe I need to get a little better. I. I probably. Here's my truth. The truth about how I feel about myself is that I would probably change some things because part of my what.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

I think might not be you.

[Danny Gokey]

Maybe that's a good thing. No, Edit, I'm just joking. Sorry. I do like myself. If anyone thinks I don't like myself, I do. I just would have made some better decisions. So. Ever heard of the book Feelings? Buried Alive Never Die? Basically, I read part of this book because I did a lot of reading.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Buried Alive Never Die. I like that.

[Danny Gokey]

And she talks about in this book how you're basically born with two set people. Everyone's born with either like a fear kind of disposition or love disposition. And basically there's only two really ways of how basically, you know, how like you talk about, you know, the. They talk about generational curses. Right. How you're more predisposed in your bloodline. If there's fear, you're more. Or alcoholism or whatever. I think fear has been an hour. So even as a young kid, whether you really or not, you're making choices, even if you don't know you're making choices. So when you're Making choices towards fear, it just kind of builds that fear thing. I'm not saying she said that, but that's kind of what I pulled away from that book. Does that make sense? I think my disposition, instead of just being like, oh, I'm loved and okay.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

It was sort of what Einstein said. You have to decide, you know, is the world for you or against you? Let's look at your brain. Okay, so we do a study called Brain SPECT Imaging. SPECT is a nuclear medicine study that looks at blood flow and activity, looks at how your brain works. And it basically shows us three things. Good activity, too little or too much. And then our job is to balance it. If it works too hard, we want to calm it down. If it doesn't work hard enough, we want to stimulate it. This is what a healthy brain looks like. The images on the left, we're looking at the outside surface. The top left, we're looking underneath the brain. The top is the front, the bottom is the back, which is just before even. And symmetrical temporal lobes that I want to look at. They're right here. When you think of religiosity, I think of that. Here we're looking from one side down from the top. All even symmetrical. Color doesn't matter. It's just a shape side. Now here, the color does matter. Blue is average activity, red is the top 15%, white is the top 8%. So white's like the super active, which should be here in the cerebellum. We're going to see for you. That's not the case. You have a beautiful brain.

[Danny Gokey]

Okay.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Yeah, it's a little bumpy.

[Danny Gokey]

Sound like my wife, but everybody's got.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

It's sort of like you're 40 and you have some wrinkles. When I see your brain compared to so many other brains we've seen, basically I think your brain's really healthy. You might have had a concussion or so in the past. You can see your temporal lobe here. It's a little smaller than this side. But I'd take that brain. I'm like, not worried at all about. Okay, busy here, calm here.

[Danny Gokey]

And the calm. That part. You said the calm. What part of that brain?

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

So this is a part of your brain called your anterior or the front cingulate gyrus, part of the suffering circuit in the brain. And it's sort of the brain's gear shifter. Lets you go from thought to thought, move from idea to be flexible, go with the flow. It's like you have a little mouse in your head that's on an exercise wheel, and I can't get off. And many people get it stoned to just shut it up or drink or use lorazepam to calm that thing down. And then here, area called basal ganglia, insular cortex. These are all part of the suffering circuit in the brain. And yours is just too busy. So we want to calm it down. And told you about the temporal lobe, especially the right temporal lobe, which is right here.

[Danny Gokey]

It's busy.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

So the fact that you're deeply spiritual, that's a good thing. But you've been obsessed with it for way too long, and the hardware has pushed you to suffer. And if we calm the hardware, balance the hardware, you are going to feel so much better. And if I teach you how to kill the ants, how to direct your mind to help rather than hurt you, you have to have the hardware that will learn that. Does that make sense?

[Danny Gokey]

Oh, yeah.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

So think of it hardware, like software. My hardware is too busy. It doesn't let me shift properly balance that. You're going to be so much happier. And when you get in a state, this is probably worse.

[Danny Gokey]

So that's already not good. But it probably gets.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Oh, no, this is great news because it helps us explain why you suffer so we can balance this.

[Danny Gokey]

Right? Because you're saying there's too much activity, right?

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

I'm saying yeah. So we're going to calm it down.

[Danny Gokey]

So if you would have saw me last year, it would probably lit up even more. Right? Wow.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

And the team knows. I always talk about the diamond pattern. Connect these dots, it looks like a diamond. And that's past trauma and thinking you're going to hell. That's traumatic. If you care, right? If you believe and you care, you start to hate yourself. Yeah, that's traumatic. Especially if it happens year after year after year after year. And then you believe God's going to heal your wife and she dies, you then attack yourself. Like, if I didn't do that, maybe this wouldn't have happened.

[Danny Gokey]

Yeah, absolutely. That is a correct reading. I think the. The years of me trying to balance this in a hidden place, and then. I don't know, I. I could tell you this. The strength I had in my teens and in my 20s, I started losing in my late 30s and 40s to balance all this. You know what I mean? You just. You kind of lose the fight a little bit, which is why I feel like in that year and a half ago, I would start waking up and just like. And this is shameful to say because I just would wait for a lot of mornings. Last year in 2024, I woke up with such a heaviness and didn't know how to approach the day. And I loved when that all stopped. And I was like, I'm waking up hopeful again. But it's really difficult to manage that part. When you wake up, you want to be well. You don't know how to get well. You want to live happily, but you don't know how to be happy again. It's almost like. Like you said, the mind had programmed the physical brain, or whatever it is.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Or your physical brain was busy. It manifested with the ocd. And then you're attacking yourself because you can't fix it. But it's like attacking yourself because you couldn't fix type 1 diabetes. Right?

[Danny Gokey]

Right.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

It's ridiculous. Right. From a rational standpoint, you can't control.

[Danny Gokey]

It, but you're just so mad at yourself because you want to be better. You know, it's a vicious.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

There was a missing piece. Your brain balance. Your brain, balance your life.

[Danny Gokey]

Amazing. I love that.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

I think from a diagnostic standpoint, I agree. From a brain perspective, your brain works too hard. And so our job, my job is to calm it down. So I want to get some labs on you. And especially looking at the panda thing, I have a supplement I love called Happy Saffron. It's our number one. So I did a post recently on Saffron versus Lexa Pro. So Lex Pro is an ssri, Right. And I think most psychiatrists, after they talk to you for an hour or two, they put you on Lex Pro.

[Danny Gokey]

Right, Right.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

And it's not a bad idea. It's not the first thing I think of.

[Danny Gokey]

Sure.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

I think. Let's see if we can do it naturally with Saffron. It's got saffron, zinc, and curcumin. So you're already taking turmeric? You don't need to do that anymore. It's in it. 400 milligrams, highly potent. Take three of them a day. I also, I want to give you our multiple vitamin fish oil and a brain boost to help your memory be even better. And then add neuralink, because it'll help calm your brain even more.

[Danny Gokey]

What is that?

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

It's. It's great. And it could be great for your son. I have thousands of children who take it because it just helps balance.

[Danny Gokey]

It's a vitamin.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

It's a supplement. 5 HTP, which is the serotonin precursor. GABA, calms down the noise and tyrosine to help you focus.

[Danny Gokey]

Okay.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

And your son, who you're concerned about.

[Danny Gokey]

Is how old he's 7. And I'm also concerned about the 5 year old, my, my 11 year old who has noticed him first. I feel like he's way better. I'll do checkups on him. How's your thoughts? Any reoccurring thoughts? Any? But it's my, I'm noticing my, my two sons, my seven and my five year old that I'm like, all right.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Yeah. So for you, I'd actually take four twice a day. For them I do two twice a day. But I also. You can go online and I have a brain health assessment. Brain health assessment.com. take it and then just send me their results and let's be friends, right? You did this for us. I think of me as somebody on your team. I appreciate that. And you might even do emdr. EMDR is a specific psychological treatment for trauma.

[Danny Gokey]

I'm interested in that one. I was, I was closed off to that one years ago, but I'm like really interested in that one.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

It's so interesting. I did it with Paula and I have Paula's before and after brain. It's like calmed everything down. It was really cool.

[Danny Gokey]

So yeah, I would like to do some EMDR for sure.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

Questions?

[Danny Gokey]

No, I think this is great.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

So we will actually give you the supplements for like six months. That's awesome. And so when you need more, just email Kim.

[Danny Gokey]

Okay.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

You met Kim, right? My assistant. Yeah, yeah. And. And me. I want to hear from you like every couple of weeks.

[Danny Gokey]

Okay.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

And you know, we'll check in as we need to do.

[Danny Gokey]

I love that. Thank you so much.

[Tana Amen]

Are you excited to optimize your brain and help the brains of those you love? Do you want to prevent or treat memory problems, anxiety or depression? Do you want to be happier? That's why I created Amen University to take what I've learned over the last 40 years years and help you have a better brain, a better mind and a better body. You can take courses like our 30 day happiness challenge which was shown in research to increase happiness by 32% in just 30 days or memory Rescue or Overcoming Anxiety, Depression, Trauma and grief or healing add at home in 30 days and much more. We also have professional courses and courses for kids including brain thrive by 25, which was found in independent research to decrease depression and improve self esteem. And as a special offer just for our listeners, you can send save 20% on your next course, visit amenuniversity.com and use the code podcast20 if you like.

[Dr. Daniel Amen]

This week's episode Please make sure to leave us a review on itunes or Spotify and follow me on Instagram or.

[Tana Amen]

TikTok at Doc Ammon and Tana Atana.