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Change Your Brain Every Day
Trapped to Triumphant: Justin McMillen on Breaking Addiction & Finding Purpose in Recovery
00:55:23
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- [00:00]
Justin McMillan
Addiction, in many ways, is a poor relationship with pain. If a person's mind is constantly evading the problem instead of facing it as a challenge. Psychological resilience is really maybe the aim for people of this particular type. But how do we get people to be psychologically resilient where they're actually pushing forward and into the trouble to conquer it, rather than hiding or evading or avoiding it altogether? Justin McMillan is the founder and CEO of Treehouse Recovery, a drug and alcohol addiction treatment center. Dr. Amen Tana and Justin discuss how Treehouse Recovery started and the real issue behind addiction. We're not supposed to be living the way we live. There's a mismatch going on between how we're built and how we currently live.
- [00:39]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Addiction is clearly not one thing. Giving them the same treatment is just irrational because it's like giving everybody with chest pain or fever the same treatment. You're not finding out why. Hi, this is Dr. Daniel Amen. I am so thrilled to to talk about our brand new course, Brain Thrive for preschoolers through grade one. In this course, we're going to teach kids to love their brain, to know that it's amazing, to know that it controls everything they do and everything they are. Because if they learn to love and care for their brains, everything in their life will be better. Welcome. Change your brain every day. We have a very special guest with us today, Justin McMillan. I met Justin in Washington, D.C. when I spoke at an event with Patrick Kennedy. We should have met long ago.
- [01:53]
Justin McMillan
Yeah.
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Dr. Daniel Amen
Our friend Earl Henslin introduced us. And Justin is the founder and CEO of Treehouse Academy and Research Institute and the co founder of Treehouse Recovery Organizations. He built with his brother Clayton to advance a new way of understanding and treating addiction. For Justin, the work is deeply personal and spiritual. Justin is relentlessly driven to advance the mission of Treehouse to save as many lives as possible by transforming how addiction is thought about, talked about, understood and treated around the world. And let's just start with your story. And why do you care about this? Why do you do this? Oh, and I just want to say Treehouse, you actually have five treatment centers. Southern California.
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Justin McMillan
We're in Nashville. We're in.
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Tana Amen
Interesting.
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Justin McMillan
Yeah, we're in Nashville. We're in North Carolina, in Wilmington. We're in Denver, Colorado, and we're in Portland, Oregon. And then we're here in. In Southern California.
- [03:10]
Tana Amen
Well, we're so excited to have you here.
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Justin McMillan
Yeah, I'm very excited to be here. I'm very grateful for this opportunity. I'm a huge fan of everything you do.
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Dr. Daniel Amen
Thank you.
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Justin McMillan
And so being able to sit across from you is a big deal for me. So thank you. Yeah. Very much. So tell us the story, the story of Treehouse's origins or why you do
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Dr. Daniel Amen
this, why you're so passionate. What's your passion? I think both Tana and I think we could do such a better job with addiction.
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Justin McMillan
Yes.
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Dr. Daniel Amen
And that you're actually doing it. And what's different about Justin's program is they go for six months. See, that is because 30 days really doesn't change anybody.
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Justin McMillan
No.
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Dr. Daniel Amen
And.
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Tana Amen
And I think that's why you get so many frequent flyers and repeat.
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Justin McMillan
Yes.
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Tana Amen
And then people giving up.
- [03:56]
Justin McMillan
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot to what we do and how we do it. I think the why it's personal. For me, it's. From the time I was very young, I've always gravitated towards people who are in pain. And that led me to some problems, I think, personally, because I tended to surround myself with people who were going through hard times and found myself going through hard times with them. But over time, I learned that that's part of what I'm built for, meaning that I'm absolutely here to end as much unnecessary suffering as I possibly can before I die. So that's crystal clear to me at this point. I don't think I could verbalize that until maybe a few years ago. But between that and raising my children and having my family, those are the two things that wake me up every day. And my family is so. Treehouse is a family business, and it's more than just me. It's my brother as well. My parents are involved. My brother and I are co owners, but our other brother works for us. Everybody sort of gave up their careers and all came together to do this, and. And we're all kind of built that way. My mother was a special ed teacher. She's got a heart of gold. Like, that's just how she is. And we were raised in a house where you just do everything you possibly can to help people who are struggling, and that's just what you do. And, you know, it's interesting, years later, when my brother went to Scotland, he came home and he brought our family crest. And I'm going to screw up the Latin on it, but it's something to the effect of I. I learned to take care of the distress because I, too, have been under stress or something like that. Yeah. So it goes deep. Yeah. That's our McMillan. That's my last name, but it's it seems to be hardwired into us. So. So like I said, I was always, you know, I was the kid that was, you know, I was always high performing, but maybe at risk because I was around people who were struggling and I always found myself in those positions. And then I guess in some ways I resigned myself to thinking maybe I was one of them.
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Tana Amen
Right.
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Justin McMillan
Well, then there's. Then you realize there's no such thing as an other, that humans are humans and that we're all in pain in different ways. And me having to come to an understanding of my own struggle allowed me to see and be clear about the struggle of others. So that was the beginning. As far as I'll go with that, I'm gonna keep it simple. But. But that was the beginning. And then of course, that creates a fuel or a fire in a person. Right. You want to. I feel, I feel compelled constantly. In fact, it's a visceral thing for me. When I see people hurting themselves, I get a. It's a very deep seated feeling in my stomach. I can't stand watching it. And I think to myself, you, you there, you have to stop. There's gotta, you know, you have to understand there's another way. And so that propels me forward, that wakes me up every day. So then how that leads to treatment.
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Dr. Daniel Amen
Well, there's another part of your story. He invested in property, if I understand this right, and started putting homeless people.
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Justin McMillan
At one point in time, I designed a building, and this was 2008, and I thought that my future was supposed to be architecture. And I designed a 7, 7 unit common interest development, which is just a fancy way to say a big condo loft complex with rooftop gardens. And it was written up in some magazines. It never got built because the economy crashed in 2008 and I was there as the sweat equity contributor. So there was investors and a lot of people lost money. And after they lost money, I went into a pretty dark place. Personally, I felt deeply responsible for all of that happening. Even though, I mean, at the time, in hindsight, obviously I wasn't responsible for 2008. But the project got approved and all the tentative track map, everything was done. And I pulled off a really difficult feat, which was to design something without having a degree or an education in architecture at all. But once the economy fell apart, the properties were going to be taken by the bank and. And so the people that had invested stopped paying the mortgage. I was living on the properties and that led to a whole bunch of homeless people living on the properties as well. And Through a series of events, I ended up with all the houses filled with homeless people. The bank's going to take them, and not the people, but the houses. And I ended up pulling a lot of people off the street. And then some miracles happened, and some people came along and helped me to buy the houses. And that led me to. There was no sober living idea. It was just pulling people off the street. But of course, most people on the street are on drugs. And so over time, there were more houses added to the equation. And going back to 2009, late 2009, I think we've pulled more homeless people off the street and helped them get work than anyone else in the Southern California. Well, Orange county area. But that wasn't where it stopped. So me being around all these people that were struggling, my brother saw me and he was like, you are happier than I've ever seen you. And a lot of it was because of the miracle about the houses being able to be bought out of foreclosure and all this stuff happening. It was just unbelievable. And so when good things happen, I think you kind of double down, like, okay, do whatever you got to do to make sure that you do right by this opportunity. Right. I mean, I was kind of raised. You get an opportunity, and it's what you do with it that makes you who you are. And so it's just head down and go forward. So my brother says, I want to come work with you. And he's an engineer, and he's working for one of the largest construction companies in the U.S. cue it. And he's building, you know, expanding, you know, freeways and doing all this stuff. I said, you don't want to work with me? I'm. I'm. This is not the kind of work you would like to do. And he was like, what if we do treatment? And I remember very clearly, I said, well, treatment doesn't work. It's all B.S. like, you can't. There's no such thing as effective substance use disorder treatment. That's not. You know, I said. In fact, I said, the treatment centers end up kicking people out, and they end up on my doorstep. And, you know, we have to house them for free and help them get jobs. Like treatment doesn't work. And he said, well, if you could do it your way, what would you do? And saying that to a guy like me is like, that's like the. I don't know. That's just. You're opening a can of worms. That's just the way I'm built. And so I obsessively started diving into what I would do and through that because I didn't understand what was happening inside treatment centers. What started as ignorance became my greatest competitive. Our greatest competitive advantage because I didn't understand what was normal. I just knew it didn't work. And so I started with a simple biopsych social assessment. It makes sense, right? You look at biology's role in addiction and psychology's role and the social dimension of addiction. But then. So all that made sense. But then I thought, well, okay, how do you treat these things? Well, so you look at how do you treat biology's role in addiction? And the whole field is just you give drug addicts more drugs. And I was like, this is, this is. Yeah. What's Suboxone? And I'm not, I'm not anti psychiatry or anti. Especially I would never.
- [11:36]
Dr. Daniel Amen
It's okay, I am.
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Justin McMillan
Well, you're changing the game. Let's see.
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Dr. Daniel Amen
The only medical specialty that never looks at the organ it treats, give you medication based on symptom clusters with no biological. No, I'm not a fan.
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Justin McMillan
Yeah, well, I think.
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Dr. Daniel Amen
Love being a psychiatrist, but clearly not a fan.
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Justin McMillan
Well, I think, I think it could be better. I think the idea is that psychiatry changing brain chemistry is vital. But do you need to use drugs to do it? That's the big question, right?
- [12:07]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Head to head against antidepressants.
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Justin McMillan
Yeah.
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Dr. Daniel Amen
Walking like you're late for 45 minutes four times a week is equally effective.
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Tana Amen
Well, and saffron. Things like saffron.
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Dr. Daniel Amen
Yeah.
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Justin McMillan
Yeah.
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Dr. Daniel Amen
So I'm so glad I asked you about the homeless thing because that's the origins.
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Tana Amen
That's sort of how you got started.
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Justin McMillan
And then your brother is like, chose me. This isn't what I wanted. I mean, I love it, but this
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Dr. Daniel Amen
is definitely when you design it. Then you're like, well, let's think about it. Biopsychosocial. But being serious about biopsychosocial, social and
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Tana Amen
not doing it the traditional way.
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Dr. Daniel Amen
That wasn't what we would just add. Spiritual. Spiritual, as you would. Meaning and purpose and why the heck do you care? Right. And the reason why, deeply personal for you.
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Justin McMillan
Yes.
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Dr. Daniel Amen
Okay, keep going.
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Justin McMillan
Okay. So.
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Dr. Daniel Amen
So, yeah.
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Justin McMillan
So biology, you know, you're like, if you have a, if a, A drug addict showed up at our doorstep because they were putting stuff in their body to change the way they think and feel. And so if you, if you give an addict or an alcoholic an option to take more drugs to change the way they think and feel, they're going to say yes. 100% of the time. So this is a problem. There's a paradox here. And at first I was pretty dogmatic about it. I was like, we can't, you know, we should not be using drugs to treat drug addicts. Like, that was, of course that changed, but that was the first thing. It's like, okay, so this is how we treat biology's role in addiction, is we give drug addicts more drugs, you know, psychiatry, psychotropics and other medications. And this is kind of before Suboxone really came online. Hard methadone was around for sure. And then psychology, well, there's plenty of psychological interventions. There's clinical interventions all day long. So that was. That made sense. I get that. And then the social side, how do you treat the social issues? There's nothing. And this is a huge problem because humans were built for bonding. Like we're supposed to bond. I mean, we bond with our children. In fact, our, the way that we form bonds was how, how we got here as a species. If we didn't have tight bonds with other people, we died. Right? And so this, this idea needing to form attachments is so essential. And you can look at any person who struggles with addiction and you can. And I'm not a one size fits all. It's all attachment. But that's a huge piece of it. Because if we don't have people to attach with or attach to, or we're maladaptive, we don't know how to, and we ingest a mind altering substance that produces the same neurochemical response, then we find ourselves deeply attached to a bottle, right? This is why you see a man in a gutter holding a bottle like it's a baby, because you have a deep and personal relationship with this drug that's fulfilling that need. And so I'm like, well, what are the social ways that we treat addiction? There's none. Group therapy is not social. That's not teaching someone to be social. So all of that sort of happened. Then I was like, okay, well what are you aiming for? And all these things were big lessons around medical, everything, right? Because I've learned so much in the last 13, 14 years. You have to be aiming for something you cannot in life. You cannot get to any place unless you're aiming for it. You won't hit a target you're not aiming for. And what I learned was that there was no clear aims for anything. Like, what do you mean? So treat biology. What are we trying to get to? What's the idea? You don't just Treat biology. You have to be aiming for something, and sobriety is not enough because.
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Tana Amen
Right. So 28 days of not consuming something isn't.
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Justin McMillan
It's not the target. Yeah. So. So what is biological? So, so instead of saying treating biology, it's. What are we trying to do with biology? Well, let's optimize biology. Okay. That's a weird way to say it. So what does optimal biology look like? Well, then you could say, well, maybe there's a way in which a human being can move and eat and be and physiologically interact with the world that is optimal. And then where would you find that? Well, maybe if you look through an evolutionary lens, you just say, how have we lived for most of human history? And how much movement should we have? What should we be eating? And so I think a lot of the answers as far as what to aim for in biology came from looking at humans through an evolutionary lens. And I'm not saying I'm this evolutionary guy, but it's how have we lived for most of human history? And we can assume that what didn't work died off and what worked didn't. So you can look at that. And so we started saying, okay, let's aim for something biological. Let's look for a basic level of fitness that's similar to our ancestors, for circadian rhythms that are similar to our ancestors. Let's get people back to their basic. Whole food. Yeah, whole food.
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Dr. Daniel Amen
Right.
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Justin McMillan
That it's not that complicated, that it's bringing people back to. It's sort of rehumanizing people. Right. Because we were built for a different environment than we live in today. We're not supposed to be living the way we live. We are because we're here. But the reality is, the environment that we live in today is not best suited for our genetics. There's a mismatch going on between how we're built and how we currently live. So biology, it's like, let's aim for something. Let's declare what we're aiming for and let's shoot for that so we actually have something to aim for in treatment and then psychology. Okay, what do you aim for psychologically? This is interesting. What is psychologically healthy? That's a big one.
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Tana Amen
There's no normal.
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Justin McMillan
No, there is no normal. And this is where. But there could be an optimal way for people that struggle with addiction to think, because addiction, in many ways, is a poor relationship with pain and resilience. Right. And so if a person's mind is constantly evading, you know, the problem, instead of Facing it as a challenge, that's an issue. And you see this, this is constant in people, in addiction, in the psychology of addiction. Right. Is I don't want to have to face this, and so I'm going to hide from it. And so psychological resilience is really maybe the aim for people of this particular type. Right. So how do we get people to be more psychologically resilient, where they're actually pushing forward and into the trouble to conquer it, rather than hiding or evading or avoiding it altogether? So psychological health, strength based psychology, psychological resilience, that's the main focus socially. So what's the best way to be socially? What's social health look like? Well, we establish deep social bonds. That's what we're looking for. So what does that mean? That means that you and I. So I grew up, you know, I'm from a farm, North Dakota. Right. Grew up on a farm till I was, you know, eight, I mean, before we moved. But my family's all farmers. And if, you know farmers, the whole world is independence, right? You got to know how to fix your own stuff. You don't depend on anyone. That's how I was raised. You know, you got your family, but you, you don't want to depend on the world. Well, the great American dream of independence, which is beautiful, but it also has put us in a position where we feel like we don't, we shouldn't have to depend on each other.
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Dr. Daniel Amen
We are so grateful you are listening to this podcast. You know, virtually everything I've learned. I've learned from our patients. I've learned from the brain imaging work we do at Amen Clinics. We now have 11 clinics and have over 10,000 patient visits a month. We want to serve you if you're struggling with anxiety, depression, concussion, add, temper, relationship issues. It could be your brain. And I always say, how do you know unless you look? That's what we do. But we do way more than brain scans. We look at your brain and then we give you a plan to make your brain, your mind, your relationships, even your deepest sense of meaning and purpose. Better go to amenclinics.com or call us.
- [19:48]
Justin McMillan
This is a problem because we're hardwired to depend on each other. For example, you bring something to the table. If we're in a tribe together, us three, we each have our thing, right? You bring something to the table, I bring my thing, you bring your thing. We put them together and we share these things. And then our relationship is based on it's community.
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Tana Amen
Yeah.
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Justin McMillan
And this is where purpose comes from too. Like, purpose is really, at the end of the day, it all comes back to serving something right. And it's hardwired into our survival. I have to have my thing, you have to have your thing. We all have to share. Right. This idea. And it could be our personality types, it could be lots of things. It doesn't just have to be that you weave baskets and I kill antelope. It can be that we each bring something to the table that's important. So in order to bond with somebody and establish a deep social bond, a person has to understand what they bring to the table and what they need from others. They have to be able to clearly communicate that. And they have to learn how to attach and communicate and interact with other people in a way that's healthy. And when you do that, and you get psychology. Right. And you get the biological side. Right, targeting brain health, which I hope we talk about a lot here today, you get those three things right in concert, and then the system of a human becomes healthier and then the symptom of addiction disappears.
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Tana Amen
Yeah.
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Dr. Daniel Amen
So how does that translate into the program at Treehouse? I mean, one of the things I like, for what seems like the same cost as a 30 day program, it's six months.
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Justin McMillan
Yeah.
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Dr. Daniel Amen
And how do you put each of these in action?
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Justin McMillan
Sure. So we run. We think of the treatment environment as an ecosystem rather than, you know, because we work in different states. Every state has kind of their own formula for what they do. So you think residential treatment in California is, you know, you have, you live in a house with a bunch of people. If you do this, you say the same thing. And it's inpatient in North Carolina, and that's a commercial building where you're locked up for 30 days. We think ecosystems. So an ecosystem includes all places that a person would go during the day, including where they sleep and eat, how they interact with other people. Even in Orange county or California, it's the beach, it's the whole ecosystem. So we want to manage the entire ecosystem of that ecosystem 11 hours a day. So we'll talk about California 11 hours a day. The people are spent in our campus. They live away from the campus, but we also have a relationship with where they live. They live in what we call team houses. And they live in groups of 12. And the 12 people come together and they all come to the campus for 11 hours a day. And the 11 hours a day mirrors a work day. So it starts, they're there before 6am the first part of the day. And you'll love this with being a brain doctor. First part of the day, actually they come over on their bicycles typically. And this is funny because we'll have like former DOJ attorneys and stuff riding a bike. Right. But it's important that morning they ride with their team and they come to the campus. So they're getting sunlight in their eyes, the sun's coming up and they're experiencing something. Just a nice brisk movement in the morning. They show up, they prepare in the morning, and then the first four hours of the day in the morning is all spent doing physical things. So physical things, it's either going to be teamwork based exercises and I can go into that in a second. That come from Naval Special Warfare, do a bunch of work with Department of Defense. Yeah. So or, and then, and then every day they're doing a 90 minute functional fitness training. And when I say this stuff, people think, oh, this is for, you know, athletes only. Or, you know, that's not the case. We've had, we've treated amputees, we've treated people in wheelchairs, we've treated people that
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Dr. Daniel Amen
are £350 functional for wherever they're at.
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Justin McMillan
Exactly. We meet them where they're at. But the idea is you need to have a relationship with movement. And we do it in the morning on purpose and by design because we're setting up the brain, we want to get all the chemistry in the brain ready to be able to learn. So the idea is we're elevating BDNF, we're bringing IGF1 up and we're preparing the sort of chemistry set in the brain to be more capable of learning everything afterwards. So the first thing that they do that's not physical in the morning. And by the way, all the physical sessions are either teamwork based stuff that's run by clinicians. So this isn't like go to the gym membership kind of a thing. This is like sessions that are intended to be coordinated movements that target brain health, trying to get people healthy and strong.
- [24:15]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Or he invited me to go to the beach to like go on a boat or something.
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Justin McMillan
I would love, and I would love so much to get you on the boat.
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Dr. Daniel Amen
Love this.
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Justin McMillan
Both of you would be great. We could film it, we could make a whole thing of it. It would be amazing.
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Tana Amen
That would be so fun.
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Justin McMillan
It'd be amazing. And the guys would take amazing care of you. Like there's so much love in the environment that we're in and you can feel it when you show up. But the boats. The boats is incredible. So one of the things where this came from is kind of a cool story. So in early 2000, through Just Mutual connections, I started hanging out with some guys from the SEAL teams and from down south. And one of them I became really close with. His name's Neil. And so as I was developing the program, I was thinking, all right, how do I establish targets? I thought, who's the most deeply socially connected person I've ever met? I was like, the seals that I've met, they're like. They don't even know each other, and they act like they've known each other forever when they get together, they're brothers, right? The military guys. So I reached out to Neil. I think he was bodyguarding for Paul Allen or something at the time. We met in the orange circle at Felix's. That place. I don't think it's still there, but it was so good. And we sat down, and I was like, I have this program, and I want to create it. And I wanted to want everyone to be as close as the SEAL teams. And he started laughing at me. He's like, that's never going to happen. And I was like, well, what would you do if you could do it? How would you do it? And he goes, well, you've got to have guys living together. They've got to be so close that they're attached to the hip. They've got to be competing against each other, but also wanting each other to
- [25:50]
Tana Amen
win a little struggle.
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Justin McMillan
Yeah, it's got to be struggle. And they've got to be focused on. They're constantly obsessing over improvement, and through that, they're developing connections. I was like, this sounds like a sports team, which I'm not. I swam, but I never did, like team sports and stuff like that. And then he pulls out his phone, and he shows me an exercise called Surf Portage Rock Portage, which is taking inflatable rubber boats and paddling them through the surf. And these guys are all wearing these red life vests, and they do this down south. And he's like, this is how we establish whether somebody is a good team player or not. And I was like, my brain just started going crazy because I thought, this is amazing. I imagine as a clinician, like, if you. After you scan someone's brain, if you could take them out and watch them behave socially, put them under mild stress, nothing dangerous, but just enough stress to see how they responded, you would get so much information as a clinician to be able to build their Treatment plan to understand their maladaptive behaviors where they're going right or left. And so I was like, this is not only an amazing assessment tool, but an amazing tool to provide real time changes on the spot to be able to say, hey, this is how you're communicating, or this is what you do when you're under stress. Or this is how you push people away from you. Yeah. So we developed action based induction therapy, which is basically like an experiential therapy run by clinicians. And it's crazy. We get people from Iowa who've never seen the ocean and they come out and do this and it's mind blowing to watch what happens. So I just went off on a tangent.
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Dr. Daniel Amen
Action based induction therapy.
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Justin McMillan
We're inducing the first part of the day is Monday, Wednesday, Friday. Yeah, yeah.
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Dr. Daniel Amen
And then what?
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Justin McMillan
Tuesday and Thursday is yoga. But we're targeting autonomic nervous system function, which I could go on and on.
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Tana Amen
Parasympathetic.
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Justin McMillan
Yeah. Which is a huge thing. This is the bridge between the way we experience the world in our body and then how we think. Right. And our feelings. And so that's gotta be any treatment
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Dr. Daniel Amen
teaching them to regulate themselves rather than need a substance to regulate them, which
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Justin McMillan
is so dysregulated when they come in. I mean, there's not a single person that comes in that's autonomic nervous system isn't just totally haywire. They're going from crazy, you know, arousal to stress or staying stuck at arousal. Yeah. So we do that through yoga, breath work, meditation. We also have thermal therapy. So we use sauna and ice baths.
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Tana Amen
Love it.
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Justin McMillan
Yeah. So that's how we address autonomic nervous system. So whether it's Monday, Wednesday, Monday through Friday, it's one of those things. In the morning, it's either the boats or this yoga type practice and breath work and meditation. After that there's a break. And then they do 90 minutes of functional fitness where it's in a gym and we have more targeting. So it's physical stuff and then more physical stuff. But the beginning physical stuff is much more teamwork based or autonomic nervous system focused. They never break, they eat. And then they go into addiction education, which is like a college level type class from 12 to 1. And they're learning everything that they. I mean we could learn more and hopefully we can. You and I can talk because there's
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Dr. Daniel Amen
a whole core program.
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Justin McMillan
Yes.
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Dr. Daniel Amen
Just perfect.
- [28:59]
Justin McMillan
We could for this.
- [29:00]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Yes. You will love it. Yeah.
- [29:02]
Justin McMillan
There's so much we're nerding out. They Will love it. When we got together, it was like two hours. We were just this close, just non stop talking. So there's so much we could do. So 12 to 1 is that. And then they break off. And this is the first time they're not with their team. Now they're going to one on ones and they do four one on ones a week. Two of them are narrative therapy. It's a writing program that was developed for Treehouse by a mentor of mine. And the other one is just traditional psychotherapy. Two sessions a week. And then they do process group from 4 to 5. And then at 5, that's the end of the 11 hour day and they go home and eat. And then at 90 days, they do a leadership training class or course, which is a month. I teach it. Most of the time I still teach even though my whole staff's like, you gotta stop. Because I'm so busy. I'm always in D.C. going back and forth. It's like it recharges. I love it so much. Yeah.
- [29:54]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Like, I still see patients.
- [29:55]
Justin McMillan
Yeah, you have to.
- [29:56]
Dr. Daniel Amen
I don't see 40 patients a week anymore.
- [29:59]
Tana Amen
You know, I. I love this story and it's. It's amazing to me. I love your passion for this, your heart for this. As someone who has actually a lot of addiction. It's his brain anyway.
- [30:09]
Justin McMillan
It's not his heart.
- [30:12]
Tana Amen
As someone who has a lot of addiction in my family, the world needs people. Like, I mean, it's. You know, I think when you've grown up with a lot of addiction in your family, you go one of two ways. You either. Well, one of three ways, you get very involved in the addiction and you go that direction. You have a heart for it or you completely withdraw from it. I mean, I completely withdrew from it and it was my survival, of course. So to hear you and I'm just like, wow. I mean, this is amazing.
- [30:38]
Justin McMillan
Well, thank you.
- [30:39]
Tana Amen
What you have done and what you
- [30:40]
Justin McMillan
have created, what's so cool is we're just getting started. There's so much.
- [30:44]
Dr. Daniel Amen
The most important thing. It's effective.
- [30:48]
Justin McMillan
Yeah. Yeah.
- [30:49]
Dr. Daniel Amen
So just talk about some of the outcomes that you have seen.
- [30:54]
Justin McMillan
So going back 13 years. So we started doing. We started gathering data in 2016 and 17, the end of 2016. And all this is practitioner research. So it's internal. We're gathering it ourselves. There's tons of challenges with gathering data, but I won't talk about all that because that's just gonna. I'll keep it simple. When it comes to program completion for six months, conservatively 85% of the people make it through six months. That's conservative. I would say the number varies center to center and it varies over time. But if you go 13 years, it's probably 85%. I think if you went the last two years, it's probably 90%. That means nobody's leaving early against medical advice. They're finishing it out. Relapse is almost zero. That's like really? Yeah. Not, not well. No. In treatment. Okay, well, I'll go and I'm going to, I'm going to break all the, stratify all this out post treatment. We, we so post treatment. Now we only have 13 years to go back, but we think about approximately 65%. And it gets hard because you're dealing with self reporting. But 65% are never touching or using another drug again.
- [32:07]
Tana Amen
That's huge.
- [32:08]
Justin McMillan
Yes. It's massive. I mean, the numbers most people talk about is, yeah, 10%. Yeah. 10% to three years. That's like the most commonly quoted statistic. And then we see about 10% is relapsing, but they're not, they wouldn't qualify to go back to treatment. So this is somebody who's like, I'm gonna go try to see if I can do this. And then with their tail between their legs, they're like, I'm not built for this anymore. I've just, I'm not meant for it. They don't go off the rails. They don't lose their job. They don't. But there's, there's that moment, then there's another 20% which is like. Or 10 to 15% who needs treatment again. And then there's a 10% mark that we, we don't know why, but we haven't. That's the, that's the part that we can't.
- [32:53]
Tana Amen
I have a question about that.
- [32:53]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Those are the ones for sure. We should.
- [32:55]
Tana Amen
And I have a question about that too. It seems to me those are the
- [32:58]
Justin McMillan
ones that haunt me.
- [32:58]
Tana Amen
Yeah. You know, but it seems to me like a big part of what you're doing, as I'm listening, is changing their identity from an addict to someone who's kind of a badass, who's like very different in their phys, their physiology and in their psychology and. Because if you don't change your identity, nothing's going to change. Right. I know in my own family with lots of addicts. Lots. I don't change the word. Lots of addiction.
- [33:24]
Justin McMillan
Thank you.
- [33:25]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Right.
- [33:26]
Tana Amen
So like I said, I, I turned hard the other way. I think a Lot of exposure therapy kept me away from it. But one thing that always frustrated me was the language they use. And I'm like, why can't you hear it? I didn't understand. Like, there's a lot of victim language. There's a lot of inability to take responsibility.
- [33:47]
Justin McMillan
Oh, man.
- [33:48]
Tana Amen
And so when I'm listening to you, I'm like, wow. I mean, it's not just about the exercise. What I'm hearing is identity change.
- [33:56]
Justin McMillan
Yes. You're so on top.
- [33:58]
Tana Amen
You cannot change.
- [33:58]
Justin McMillan
If you don't change right now, you can't. And you cannot. You cannot ever stay. Well, if you believe that the world is happening to you.
- [34:06]
Tana Amen
Yes.
- [34:06]
Justin McMillan
We teach extreme ownership. Yes. And we call it living at cause and extreme ownership. And the idea is, how can you make as many things in your life your fault as possible? Then you have control. Right. So it's like, you know, I got. I. Someone stole my backpack out of my car. You could find a lot of people who would feel really bad at you for that, you know, for that happening. Or you could say, what did I do wrong here? Well, I left my backpack in my car. I parked under a broken street light, and my window was partly down. Now I control the situation. Yes. We pound this. We literally teach this concept.
- [34:39]
Tana Amen
So my favorite word in the world is responsibility.
- [34:42]
Justin McMillan
I love it.
- [34:42]
Tana Amen
And I learned it. And it's not only for when things are your fault. Sometimes things aren't your fault. But it doesn't have to be about blame.
- [34:49]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Right.
- [34:49]
Tana Amen
It can be about your ability to respond.
- [34:51]
Justin McMillan
Yes.
- [34:51]
Tana Amen
And so when I learned that, because I was Felt very sorry for myself, I had cancer. And when I learned this, that it doesn't have to be my fault, but I can still take responsibility, it changed my life.
- [35:02]
Justin McMillan
And you will find that this characteristic in so many people who are successful in the world. And to take it, this identity thing is so interesting. So originally, there was a hunch that I had. We had. And then it became supported by science, and now we're really running with it, which is that addiction, in many ways, is caused by a genetic predisposition, but not how we're taught to believe. There are certainly ways that the liver metabolizes opiates in one way or another, or alcohol. That's true. And the research around that's good. However, there's also ways that our genes code for how our dopaminergic system works and how our brain works. And we're not all built the same. Okay, so what does that mean? Well, if you consider that these genes, these Traits didn't get bred out of the gene pool for a reason. So why do they exist? Why is it that 20 to 30% of the population has less density of dopamine neurons? How would that have been an advantage through human history? Well, those people are never satisfied. They're constantly looking for more. Now, this can be one of two ways. You can either turn in somebody into somebody like Dr. Amen with the warrior gene, perhaps, or I do have the warrior gene. There you go. Or you can end up being somebody who's novelty seeking, never satisfied, and with the wrong environmental conditions, become addicted. Now, why this matters is because there are genes that drive this forward, but they're not addict genesis. They're genes that either make you into the highest performer or the worst self destructor. The same coin with two sides. And so.
- [36:35]
Tana Amen
Yeah, because you have people in the same family.
- [36:36]
Justin McMillan
Yes.
- [36:37]
Tana Amen
That's the thing is like, you look at families and you'll always find the ones who. Who become addicted. And then you'll find the ones who are like, what the hell is the matter with you?
- [36:46]
Justin McMillan
Right. And they have the same similar traits. It's just expressing itself in two different ways.
- [36:51]
Dr. Daniel Amen
So thinking about this is like the
- [36:52]
Justin McMillan
most exciting thing about all of this.
- [36:54]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Do you put 12 steps in the program or not?
- [36:59]
Justin McMillan
Yes. Well, okay. I come from a 12 step background, and it's pretty clearly stated that we shouldn't be charging money for 12 step. So there's a lot of treatment centers that do. I'm not gonna say whether it's good or bad. People can make their own decisions about that. But billing insurance and treating somebody and using a big book and then billing insurance for it seems to me to be maybe not the best move.
- [37:22]
Dr. Daniel Amen
But it starts with I'm an alcoholic. It starts with identity.
- [37:28]
Justin McMillan
Yeah.
- [37:28]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Which I worked with Rick Warren for a long time, and he has celebrate recovery. And he's like, no, we're not starting with an identity of illness. We're starting with I am a child of God and with infinite value. I have some patients who 12 steps saved their life. But when you look at the research, it's not good.
- [37:55]
Justin McMillan
Yeah, it's.
- [37:57]
Dr. Daniel Amen
It's not good. And I wrote a book, your brain is always listening. And I just decided to rewrite the 12 steps from a neuroscientist perspective. And step one isn't, I'm in trouble. That's the step one. And the 12 steps is my life's out of control. Step one for me is, what do you want? What are your goals? And step two Is your behavior getting you what you want?
- [38:25]
Justin McMillan
So you're sort of like creating an opportunity for somebody to analyze what's going on around them versus identity. Right?
- [38:31]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Yeah.
- [38:32]
Tana Amen
And I love the idea of an alter ego or what you're doing with, like, just really, like, ingraining in them that there's someone different about.
- [38:39]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Starting with disease.
- [38:41]
Justin McMillan
This is a hard one because I have seen. I've seen people that we tried to treat, the 10% that were really struggling, or what appeared to be the 10% end up finding what they needed. With AA. I've seen it's hard. AA is so accessible to so many people that it's hard for me to say so. I used to have a lot of opinions and people knew them around a. I struggled with the idea of saying that I was powerless.
- [39:09]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Right.
- [39:09]
Tana Amen
Yeah.
- [39:10]
Justin McMillan
It felt like, okay, all right, doctor, Amen. I'm going to prepare you to go to war. You're going to fight the hardest war of your life. But before we start, I want you to say that the enemy is something that you're powerless over. Right. Like, that's. There was a lot of problems with that in my head. I become a little bit more open about it. And it's not political. It's not. I mean, political. It's not because I don't. I'm afraid of pissing people off. I don't. I'm not afraid of pissing people off. It's really just that it's not. I'm focused on trying to treat the whole person as. At a system level, AA is really the best that it can be outside of that available for the public broadly. And until something better comes along, it's so essential because so many people don't have options to go to places like.
- [40:00]
Tana Amen
Yeah, I think that's a great way to say it.
- [40:02]
Justin McMillan
I don't know. I don't know.
- [40:03]
Tana Amen
It's better than the alternative.
- [40:04]
Justin McMillan
We could dig into each piece of it if you want to. I mean, I certainly.
- [40:09]
Tana Amen
Yeah, maybe another one.
- [40:11]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Well, I love your model. It fits so well with our brand
- [40:19]
Tana Amen
health model in so many ways.
- [40:21]
Justin McMillan
I do want to say one thing about a. I think one of the metrics I've seen for people staying well, that struggle with substances, and you see it every time, is when people start to get enough peace with their past that they start looking at the world around them and they notice things and they're like, everything's happening exactly as it should. And this is.
- [40:43]
Dr. Daniel Amen
This.
- [40:43]
Justin McMillan
This is sort of like aa, the acknowledgment of a Higher power in a person's life, I think is probably the most powerful part of it. Because this idea that I'm not completely at the wheel, that there's something greater than me that I can rely on
- [40:58]
Tana Amen
so that I think is okay. Like, I'm not. I am powerless, but something else greater than me has. That's okay. But to say that I have no control over anything is that, to me, feels.
- [41:10]
Justin McMillan
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree. But I think that piece is incredible. And I think the community, where it's challenging is. If you go to an AA meeting and you hear people say, this happens all the time, they'll speak about it. When I drink, I end up in a hotel with prostitutes, and I.
- [41:31]
Tana Amen
So they're saying the present tense.
- [41:33]
Justin McMillan
They do, yeah. And it's crazy to hear it. It's like, I notice that stuff. In fact, I noticed.
- [41:38]
Tana Amen
No, I do, too.
- [41:39]
Justin McMillan
It's like, language matters when I used to or. Exactly. If somebody's talking that way and you'll hear this repeat narrative, and you're like, this is like something that's just sitting right at the edge, about ready to fall at any moment, which is taught. Which is like one moment from relapse. You know, it's just one. One drink away, and you're gone. But I also know people like our secretary, who's an amazing guy who's relied on a. For, you know, 40 years, and he's done really well with it. Or Russell Brand, also. He's got a relationship, so.
- [42:12]
Dr. Daniel Amen
But I don't want to diminish it. If it works for someone.
- [42:15]
Justin McMillan
Yeah.
- [42:16]
Dr. Daniel Amen
But AA is a psychosocial spiritual program. There's no biology in it. Which is why I felt the need to rewrite the 12 steps. Step three is get your brain healthy.
- [42:28]
Justin McMillan
Yeah.
- [42:28]
Dr. Daniel Amen
And the question always, is this good for my brain or bad for. Right. We're building a national brain health revolution around that. One question.
- [42:38]
Justin McMillan
I love it.
- [42:39]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Is what I'm doing now good for my brain or bad for it? And does it make the world better? So in that is biopsychosocial spiritual? Because does it make the world better? Which means it's not just about me. It's about generations of me. And why would I ever do anything that damages my brain unless I was just not that smart? Because clearly, alcohol, marijuana, cocaine, methamphetamines, they are bad for your brain. Right? I mean, that's what I do. I look at people's brains, and I have so many great stories. Like Jonathan Cain, the band member of Journey, who wrote Most of their iconic songs. Drinking two bottles of wine a day for decades. Saw a scan and stopped because I could show him he was headed for Alzheimer's disease. Here's your brain. Here's a healthy brain. Here's yours. Here's yours if you do what I say. And here's yours if I don't. If you don't, which one do you want? And then made a poster and he put it on his tour bus. So that, I mean, it's just so powerful. But if you add that to the bonding, to the exercise, to the education, it just. They reinforce each other.
- [44:09]
Tana Amen
Hardware, software.
- [44:09]
Justin McMillan
Well, you, You. You bring up such an important point, doctor, because, like I said, aiming for something. If you tell someone, oh, you just need a healthier brain, but you don't, if you show them, look what you've done, look what you're doing, and then you have something to aim for, right? Like, I want this to be that. People need that. You have to have a target. If you're not aiming for something, you'll never hit it. You're helping people establish targets. It's what you're doing for the innovators like you are what inspire guys like me to keep pushing forward despite all the slings and arrows and craziness of putting yourself out there. I know that it's not about. I know it's a sacrifice to put yourself out in front. They say. What do they say? Pioneers get the arrows and settlers get the lights.
- [44:54]
Tana Amen
One of my favorite speeches is the men in the arena.
- [44:57]
Justin McMillan
Yes.
- [44:57]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Yeah.
- [44:57]
Justin McMillan
I mean, but that. Oh, my goodness. Sorry.
- [44:59]
Tana Amen
You're fine.
- [45:00]
Justin McMillan
But that's. That's. Yeah, I think it's incredible. I think it's so incredible that people who want the status quo continue to complain about people that are putting themselves out there and pushing for change. It's insane. And it's happening all over the place. It's happening right now with our current political system. It's like, specifically hhs. I don't know about the other side of things, but it's like people are trying and that matters, right?
- [45:28]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Well, there's a new program from CMS center for Medicare and Medicaid Services called MAHA Elevate, where they're actually looking for innovative programs to deal with chronic disease. I love that.
- [45:43]
Tana Amen
At least they're kind.
- [45:44]
Justin McMillan
Yeah. Yeah.
- [45:45]
Dr. Daniel Amen
So much. I'm so hopeful. And, you know, if you disrupt an industry, people hate you. Machiavelli, 15th century, said, There is nothing more dangerous than trying to upset a system that's in place. That's Making a lot of money.
- [46:06]
Justin McMillan
Yeah.
- [46:07]
Dr. Daniel Amen
And. But yet, if you know you have something that works, there's no choice, right? There's just no choice.
- [46:16]
Justin McMillan
You can't look yourself in the mirror if you don't.
- [46:17]
Dr. Daniel Amen
I mean, if the goal is money, then you conform. If the goal is making a difference, you don't conform. You do what you know works. What I'm excited about for Treehouse Recovery is the data you have. You are smart enough. Most treatment centers don't do outcome studies. We've done an outcome study on every one of our patients since 2011. So we have the best published outcomes of anyone in psychiatry that we know about. And we sort of get to cheat. We look at your brain before we go about trying to change it.
- [46:55]
Tana Amen
But is it cheating, or is it just smarter?
- [46:59]
Justin McMillan
It's so obvious, too. I don't know why anyone even would debate that. That's crazy.
- [47:03]
Dr. Daniel Amen
But, you know, and the people who call me bad names, it's like, you know, I'm one of seven, and I have five sisters. So I got called lots of bad,
- [47:11]
Tana Amen
became well trained and fully housebroken.
- [47:13]
Justin McMillan
Yeah, No, I get it.
- [47:15]
Dr. Daniel Amen
How can people learn more about your work? And if they have somebody they care about who needs help, or if you're listening and you need help, how can they get connected more with Treehouse Recovery?
- [47:32]
Justin McMillan
You could google us@treehouserecovery.com that's the easiest way. We have a YouTube channel with hundreds of videos that have tons around addiction education. People use them for resources. They're used in VAs to teach classes and all kinds of things. So there's a good educational library every one of the states. So there's triage recovery TN that's in Tennessee. There's triage recovery, NC in North Carolina. Treehouse Recovery is the one here in Southern California, and Treehouse Recovery PDX in Portland, and then co. Colorado, Treehouse Recovery, Colorado. But you just Google us. We're visible, and then call. And we've got amazing people that even if a person. Every person that answers the phone at Treehouse is trained, that even if a person doesn't end up at Treehouse, we guide them to wherever they need to go, and we don't stop until they find a place. We know everybody. We connect people to care all the time. So we'll help. Yeah. And we got. Yeah, we're here completely. One of the things I want to mention about data is we recently partnered with DNA Hive, and the hive is was built for the fda, and it was built by a dear friend of mine, Dr. Vaughan Simonian. And what it does is it's. It's one of the largest databases of genetic information in the world. All of the pharmaceutical companies have to use the HIVE to run through and do analysis. So we're now plugged into the hive, so we can do multifactorial analysis in ways that nobody else can do. And it can port data from everything from imaging to blood to clinical notes. And it can find correlations using AI in ways that have never been possible four years ago, at least in the open market. So we partnered with hive, and then now, which I'm hoping we get to work on in the future, is the Comprehensive Addiction Research Network, which is bringing personalized medicine to the substance use disorder treatment space. And so what that looks like is Dr. Simonyan, who I'm working with at the Hive. We're going to be co PIs on this study. It'll be three years long. He worked heavily on bringing personalized medicine to cancer treatment. And through that, reduce cancer death rates by 30%. He's not the only guy. There were several people, but he was one of the key players in it. And so the idea is to bring that to substance use disorder treatment. But in order to do it, we have to bring in as much data as possible and analyze it and look at what are the strongest signals about what's effective. And then the goal in the future, after three years study and then five years out, would be when someone comes in to go to treatment, you do extensive data collection on them. Genetics, blood, even gut, biome, everything. You put all that into this backbone of the hive, and it spits out the ultimate treatment plan based on all of what's been gathered over time across all the other research, all the other treatment centers that are part of the Comprehensive Addiction Research Network. So the more information it gets, the better it gets. And it's constantly improving. So we get away from this one size fits all treatment approach to personalized medicine for substance use disorder treatment.
- [50:50]
Dr. Daniel Amen
I love that.
- [50:51]
Justin McMillan
Yeah.
- [50:51]
Dr. Daniel Amen
I wrote a book. Goodness. I think it's 15 years ago with David Smith, who founded the Haight Ashbury Free Clinic. He's considered the father of addiction medicine in the US and it's called Unchain youn Brain Breaking the addictions that steal your life. And based on our imaging work, what we discovered was ADD is not one thing. It's seven different things. That being overweight is not one thing, it's five different thing. Stop putting everybody in the same program. And that addiction is clearly not one thing. They're impulsive addicts, they're compulsive addicts, they're sad addicts, they're anxious addicts, they're head traumative addicts. And giving them the same treatment is just irrational because it's like giving everybody with chest pain or fever the same treatment. You're not finding out why.
- [51:50]
Tana Amen
Right. And I love that you. We've been doing that. You've been doing that with the brain. But I also loved that I heard you say that you assess them as well and you're, you know, for your program to figure out like, what is this person's communication style? What is this person's style for interacting how. Because you can't treat them the same if they're. They're not the same.
- [52:10]
Justin McMillan
Exactly. Yeah. There's so many cool things that are happening that, that, I mean, the wearable side of things too. And this is the last thing I'll say. So I'm really into OURA rings and wearables. We're gonna include aura. So we just did a nih. We got, we made the pay line and all that for nih. We're just waiting for the mess to get untangled at NIH right now. But what we're doing is we're using OURA rings and we're putting them in all of our patients. And we're looking at the phase one is gonna be just during treatment and we're looking at anybody who starts to. So I said, people don't leave early, but people definitely want to leave and then stay. So we're looking for that period of time before someone's contemplating leaving. And we're teasing out the data and the goal is to find, to develop an algorithm that can predict relapse before it happens.
- [52:58]
Tana Amen
That's so interesting.
- [52:59]
Justin McMillan
So, so now the future is. Yeah. You're wearing a ring if you're in recovery. And it through your phone, it'll say, hey, you're moving towards.
- [53:07]
Tana Amen
Yeah.
- [53:08]
Justin McMillan
Relapse based on data. The more data you put into it, the more we're likely to know whether people are more or less likely.
- [53:14]
Dr. Daniel Amen
So likely heart rate variability will be a predictor of relapse. Low frontal lobe activity will be a predictor. There's already published studies on that. But yeah, the future is interesting and where. And exciting.
- [53:30]
Justin McMillan
Yeah.
- [53:30]
Dr. Daniel Amen
All right, well, we have to ride. We're going to have you back. Hi, I'm Dr. Daniel. Amen. I've experienced firsthand the powerful impact that proper supplementation can have on your brain, your body and your mind. That's why I founded Brain md. Our formulas are scientifically created from decades of clinical research designed to help you think clearer, feel better and improve every aspect of your health whether it's brain and body power Max, the same formula I used in the world's largest study of NFL players to optimize brain performance to Happy Saffron to boost mood and memory and Pro Brain Biotics Max to improve the gut brain connection. Brain MD delivers the highest quality science backed solutions to help you think and feel better. Tana and I take many of our products every day and as a special offer just for our listeners. You can save 20% on your next order. Visit brainmd.com and use the code PODCAST20 with a better brain always comes a better life. TreeHouse Recovery Justin McMillan. You can go to treehouserecovery.com to learn more and I'm excited about the research we're talking about doing together.
- [55:05]
Justin McMillan
I am too. Thank you so much.
- [55:07]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Leave Us A Comment Question Review subscribe Change your brain every day in a good way.
- [55:16]
Justin McMillan
Sam.