Episode 2: Sin City

Summary

Summary of "Charlie’s Place: Episode 2 – Sin City"

Introduction and Content Warning

The episode begins with Reem Gise issuing a content warning: “Some of the language and imagery used to describe this period of time may be upsetting. Please take care while listening” ([00:00]).

Setting the Scene: Myrtle Beach in the Jim Crow Era

Reem Gise delves into the turbulent era of the 1940s in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, a time marked by racial segregation under Jim Crow laws. Amidst this backdrop, Charlie Fitzgerald, a Black businessman, opened Charlie’s Place on Carver Street—a nightclub that defied the segregated norms of the South by fostering integration through music and dance.

Dino Thompson: A Young Witness to Integration

Central to this narrative is Dino Thompson, a Greek-American youth known for his propensity to fight, earning him the nickname “Boulevard fighter.” Dino recounts his early interactions with Charlie Fitzgerald and his experiences at Charlie’s Place:

Dino Thompson ([03:05]): “I was a product in Boulevard. You know, we grew up on the Boulevard. We learned to dance at a very young age because that was how you met girls. That was very important.”

Early Memories of Charlie Fitzgerald

Dino shares vivid childhood memories of Charlie at the Cozy Corner, his father's restaurant—a place that served as a de facto safe zone for Black patrons amidst the pervasive segregation:

Dino Thompson ([06:28]): “And my first memories of Charlie Fitzgerald were him sitting in the cozy corner at what we call the family table. ... He was quiet. He was a more serious man.”

Dino describes Charlie’s daily routine, highlighting his mysterious aura:

Dino Thompson ([07:55]): “Charlie is joining in. He was quiet. He was a more serious man. ... And he was the only one I knew back then carrying a shoulder pistol tucked neatly under his jacket.”

Cozy Corner: A Breach in Segregation Norms

Reem Gise explains that while the Cozy Corner was less overtly racist, segregation laws still strictly governed interactions. An exception occurred when Charlie visibly dined with Dino’s father, challenging the segregationist norms:

Reem Gise ([08:19]): “...But even at the Cozy Corner, segregation was still the law, and black patrons still could only order food to go through a side window. But there was one exception. Charlie defied the segregation norms in broad daylight in front of a window for everyone on Main Street to see.”

The Role of Music and Dance in Integration

Music and dance were pivotal in breaking racial barriers at Charlie’s Place. Dino’s fascination with R&B music, which was banned from local white radio stations, drew him to the club. His clandestine attendance, despite club rules against minors, underscores the magnetic pull of Black music:

Dino Thompson ([12:54]): “I'm walking through a throng of people. Charlie sees me and he says, what are you doing? I said, I'm here to see Little Richard... I went to see Little Richard, he's a singer. It didn't register with dad.”

These experiences introduced Dino to legendary musicians like Little Richard, whose performances left a lasting impression:

Dino Thompson ([13:30]): “He plays piano with his head, his elbows and his feet. And my dad says, what's wrong with the man? He's got no hands.”

The Emergence of the Shag Dance

A significant cultural development at Charlie’s Place was the evolution of new dance styles, most notably the Shag—a dance that would become South Carolina’s official state dance. Dino and his peers were at the forefront of creating and popularizing these dances:

Reem Gise ([25:37]): “The innovation came with the little moves and embellishments or a new step someone might add into the mix.”

The Shag was characterized by its smooth, gliding movements, distinguishing it from the more exuberant jitterbug:

Reem Gise ([26:50]): “At its best, it looks like the couples are gliding, creating an optical illusion of being on skates.”

Integration and Its Complex Impact

While Charlie’s Place symbolized a beacon of integration, Reem Gise and dance scholar Thomas de France reflect on the nuanced implications of such mixing in a racially oppressive society:

Thomas de France ([32:10]): “African Americans, we change our dancing. Our dancing might get stronger, it might get showier... we might hold things back... dancing together means we understand each other.”

This perspective underscores the delicate balance and underlying tensions present in the integrated environment of Charlie’s Place.

Challenges and Tensions: Maintaining Peace

Dino’s commitment to preventing violence within the club highlighted the fragile nature of integration. When conflicts arose, enforced by bouncers like Robert Gore, the club’s leadership, particularly Ms. Sarah Fitzgerald, took decisive actions to maintain order:

Dino Thompson ([34:18]): “I just couldn't stand being told I was chicken. So she told me... we went out back, and I popped him twice, and he went down.”

Ms. Sarah’s formidable presence and readiness to defend the club’s integrative ethos left a profound impact on Dino:

Dino Thompson ([35:40]): “She stepped up, and she pulled her skirt up to her upper thigh... from that day on, I looked at her just a bit different.”

Conclusion: The Legacy of Charlie’s Place

“Sin City” encapsulates the transformative power of Charlie’s Place as a melting pot where Black and white individuals could come together through music and dance, challenging entrenched racial barriers. The episode highlights personal stories like Dino Thompson’s, illustrating both the joys and perils of fostering integration in a deeply segregated society. Through these narratives, Reem Gise paints a vivid picture of how Charlie’s Place not only provided a space for cultural exchange but also ignited tensions that would ultimately shape the community’s social fabric.

Notable Quotes

• Reem Gise ([17:28]): “Dance at Charlie's place was a living, breathing thing. Never static, never stale.”
• Thomas de France ([32:10]): “We might all be a bit suspicious of thinking that dancing together means we understand each other.”
• Dino Thompson ([35:12]): “...what hides under my skirt. And she had a little pistol taped to her thigh.”

Final Thoughts

Episode 2 of "Charlie’s Place" masterfully intertwines personal anecdotes with historical context, offering listeners an immersive exploration of a pivotal era in Myrtle Beach’s history. By focusing on the intersection of race, music, and dance, the episode underscores the complex dynamics of integration and the enduring legacy of establishments like Charlie’s Place in shaping cultural and social landscapes.

Transcript

[Amazon Healthcare Representative]

Have you ever gotten sick on a very expensive, very non refundable family trip? AmazonOne Medical has 247 virtual care so you can get help no matter where you are. And with Amazon Pharmacy your meds can get delivered right to your hotel fast. It's kind of like the room service of medical care. Thanks to Amazon Healthcare just got less painful.

[Apple Card Representative]

This message is brought to you by Apple Card I was just at a theme park in Florida with my almost 4 year old. Between enjoying the sunshine and the rides, the last thing I wanted to worry about was my wallet. That's why Apple Card with Apple Pay saved my vacation. One tap at check in and I was off to see the attractions. Every purchase from hot dogs and oh we had hot dogs to T shirts earned me daily cash. Unlike waiting in line for a ride, there's no waiting until the end of the month for rewards and my daily cash is automatically deposited into the savings account I open through Apple Card where it earns interest. With Apple Pay's secure technology built right into my iPhone and Apple Watch, I pay to shops, restaurants and attractions without ever digging from my wallet. The best part? No fees, no hassles. I spent less time managing my money and more time doing nothing short of epic. Apply for Apple Card in the Wallet.

[Amazon Healthcare Representative]

App on your iPhone subject to credit approval. Savings is available to Apple Card owners subject to eligibility variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.24% to 28.49% based on credit worthiness rates as of January 1, 2025. Savings in Apple Card by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch Member FDIC terms and [e-mail].

[Reem Gise]

Pushkin A quick warning Some of the language and imagery used to describe this period of time may be upsetting. Please take care while listening. Dino Thompson has had a gun pointed at him six times, and he's been in love 20 times. From these stats, he might seem like more of a lover than a fighter. But at Charlie's Place, the club on Carver street, the owner, Sarah Fitzgerald, only cared about Dino's capacity to find trouble. She'd heard about his reputation on the Boulevard. That's how people refer to Ocean Boulevard, which was a street closest to the water, running parallel to the beach. Back then, Ocean Boulevard was strictly a white part of town. Black people were literally only allowed on the boulevard if they worked there. They had to carry cards to prove it or they could get arrested. Ms. Sarah knew that if Dino fought at Charlie's Place, it would have different consequences than on the Boulevard. And that's what she told Dino when she saw him in her club.

[Dino Thompson]

She told me on several occasions. She said, I know you're feisty. I heard you. You're a Boulevard fighter. I said, well, ma', am, I don't start fights. We just. It happens. But she left and she said, but you can never have a problem in here. Do you understand? She didn't want a white boy getting his butt kicked in a black nightclub. You know, in the 50s.

[Reem Gise]

Massera knew that a white boy getting beat up in a black nightclub wouldn't just affect Dino. It would be dangerous for every person in there. It could be deadly. Before Dino stepped foot into Charlie's Place, he was just a Greek kid from the Boulevard. The Boulevard was his stomping ground. And when he wasn't getting into fights, he was dancing.

[Dino Thompson]

I was a product in Boulevard. You know, we grew up on the Boulevard. We learned to dance at a very young age because that was how you met girls. That was very important. And if you could dance, you could always meet the cutest girl.

[Reem Gise]

All the white kids in Myrtle beach got together at the Pavilion on the Boulevard to dance. They called themselves Beach Cats. They danced the Jitterbug, a jittery version of swing. One might call it the white man's Lindy Hop. If you know, you know, those who could dance the best were kings out there on the Boulevard. But Dino realized they had nothing on what was happening at Charlie's Place. If Dino really wanted to learn how to dance, he had to leave the Boulevard. He had to enter that other world of Myrtle beach, the Hill, and go to the club on Carver street, to Charlie's Place. Once inside, though, Dino would learn that dance was just part of his lesson at Charlie's Place. Because dance wasn't just dance. And Charlie's Place wasn't just a club. It was where all the passions of life, the tensions, the fears, the anger, the love, the delight, the joy would come out, would unfurl and would change the fabric of Myrtle Beach. I'm Reem Gise. This is Charlie's Place. Episode 2 Sin City as I continued on my journey to understand Charlie, I realized I had to understand what he built. I needed to get inside Charlie's Place the best I could, given that the building the nightclub was in no longer exists. More than who performed there, who danced there. Why were music and dance so important to all the people? I talked to Dino, the Greek kid known for fighting on the Boulevard and had a unique perspective on it all. His dad owned a restaurant in town called the Cozy Corner. And that's where Dino first encountered Charlie Fitzgerald, when Dino was just a little kid.

[Dino Thompson]

And my first memories of Charlie Fitzgerald were him sitting in the cozy corner at what we call the family table. It's right by the cash register. And there were always a group of kibitzers there. A couple Jews, a couple Lebanese, a Greek, a Baptist. And Charlie is joining in. He was quiet. He was a more serious man. But for lunch, he'd always eat a club sandwich. Before long, he was just one of the guys sitting around the family table with five ashtrays for cigarettes and six cups of coffee. And one of my jobs was keep emptying those ashtrays back and forth. One day, I had my cowboy outfit on. I was about seven. I had two guns on, a little silk cowboy shirt, my boots. And I noticed when he turned, he had. I had two plastic pistols like pearl handles. And I said, well, you've got a pistol like mine. And I said, can I see it? Charlie takes the bullets out, I take it. I leave mine there, and I put it in my holster, and I go down the street and I shoot 10, 15 people with Charlie's pistol, you know, with no bullets. And I come back 15, 20 minutes later. I get back to him, put some bullets back, put some backs. It was just something he had. But he was the only one I knew back then carrying a shoulder pistol tucked neatly under his jacket. So that was an air of mystery to me as a child.

[Reem Gise]

People I spoke to talked about the restaurant Dino's dad owned as a safe zone, a place outside the hill where black people would be served without hassle. What I took this to mean was Cozy Corner was less racist than the other places in the area. But even at the Cozy Corner, segregation was still the law, and black patrons still could only order food to go through a side window. But there was one exception. Charlie and Charlie defied the segregation norms in broad daylight in front of a window for everyone on Main street to see.

[Leroy Brunson]

No one told him what to do, what he wanted to do. That's what he did.

[Reem Gise]

Leroy Brunson was close in age to Dino, and they became friends. Leroy's dad was a cook at Cozy Corner. But Leroy could never visit his dad there on the inside because we thought.

[Leroy Brunson]

It was natural, normal. As a kid, you know, you. You know, there are places that they didn't want you. We didn't go. You'd walk the street. They'd ride by so many cars, and they would throw things at you sometime walking the street.

[Reem Gise]

But for a moment in time, Leroy Thought the rules had changed because one day he saw Charlie sitting inside the Cozy Corner eating lunch with Dino's dad in a booth together.

[Leroy Brunson]

And the first time that I saw Charlie sit down in Dino's father's place, he was having lunch. And that's what I wanted to do. But my brother, you know, he's a little older than me, said, no, you can't. No, no, no, no, no. So we stayed outside.

[Dino Thompson]

There's nothing I could remember that would affect me, like Leroy telling me that story. It stuck with me. I just stared at Leroy a minute, trying to imagine what he was feeling. Of course, I. I couldn't go there. I couldn't get there.

[Reem Gise]

It would be years before the Civil Rights act of 1964 would make segregation illegal in public places. The regulars at Cozy Corner were men who smoked and drank and played cards. These were immigrants from European countries finding community in a foreign land. And somehow Charlie fit in.

[Dino Thompson]

Sitting with a black man was no big deal to them. They'd seen the horrors of war, so there were bigger things in their life they had dealt with. And this segregation thing that was going on in America. So maybe it was naive to think that things weren't happening in other places. But in my world, things were okay.

[Reem Gise]

From what I heard, it sounds like Dino's dad and Charlie had a true friendship. Maybe they recognized something in each other, had similar dreams of finding home in Myrtle beach, even if they were sometimes seen as outsiders. At the end of the night, Dino's dad would give his staff who lived on the hill a ride home, and Dino would tag along. Remember, the hill was where black people in Myrtle beach lived and could move freely. After his dad had dropped everyone off, he'd often stop at Charlie's place.

[Dino Thompson]

I'd wander around and play a pinball machine, and sometime I'd punch up a record on the jukebox. Charlie would actually give me a quarter. And I remember some of the songs I'd punch up were Dirty Blues. And he would look at me and say, you played that? I'd say, yes, sir, please warm your wiener. Or some of that back then, Dirty Blues. There were no dirty words. It was all innuendo. But it was dirty music back then. So I thought it was cool to be able to punch in songs like that. So I got introduced to black music at a very young age.

[Reem Gise]

Charlie's Place was all about black music in lots of forms. There was the music on the jukeboxes, the songs Dino sought out for a quarter. But really, what people of this time mean when they say black music is R and B. This music specifically was banned on the outside. Local radio stations called it race music or jungle music and vowed to never play it. When the biggest R and B artists of the time came to play at Charlie's place, Dino made sure not to miss it. The problem was Dino was a kid. And Charlie had that rule, no kids after 9:30. So Dino snuck in.

[Dino Thompson]

I'm walking through a throng of people. Charlie sees me and he says, what are you doing? I said, I'm here to see Little Richard. And he laughed and he said, where's your daddy? I said, he's still working. And he puts me on the end of the stage and he said, don't move from here. I want you not to move. And I'm sitting on the end of the stage. And of course Little Richard plays the piano. But, you know, he's acrobatic. He's everywhere. And I got the best seat in the house. He's dancing all over me, all around me. I remember he had a pair of blue suede shoes. They had metal fronts and a metal back. I'd never seen a pair of shoes like that. So made an impression. When I got home, my dad said, I thought you were spending the night with Little Richard. And I tried to explain to him. I went to see Little Richard, he's a singer. It didn't register with dad. And I said, he plays piano with his head, his elbows and his feet. And my dad says, what's wrong with the man? He's got no hands. And I said, good night, dad.

[Reem Gise]

Dino loved the music you could find at Charlie's place. And as he learned how to dance, he couldn't stay away.

[Dino Thompson]

All the dancers wanted that black music. Why? Because it had a danceable, backbeat music.

[Reem Gise]

And Dance on the Hill was one and the same. And no one could deny the influence they were beginning to have. On the outside of the nightclubs in Myrtle beach and even far beyond. There was something big happening in Myrtle beach and its neighboring towns. Along the Carolina coast. White kids were falling in love with black music. The author Frank Beauchamp wrote an oral history of dance and music in Myrtle beach during the 1940s and 50s. He attributes the spread of R and B in white clubs along the Carolina coast to a white dancer who went by the name Big George. Big George collected the most popular records from the jukeboxes in black clubs and loaded them in the jukeboxes of of white clubs on the boulevard. These R and B records were known as beach music, what many in Myrtle beach still consider the sound of home. Back then, if you wanted to buy black music, there were two options. You could order it from this one record shop in Tennessee called Randy's Record Shop, or you could order directly from the label. Most of the great R and B artists of the time were represented by Atlantic Records. And the president of Atlantic Records began.

[Dino Thompson]

To notice white teenagers from this little area from Carolina beach to Pawley's island, were ordering black music by mail. And he was wondering, why are so many white teenagers? Because we had it on our jukeboxes, and when you heard it, you wanted it. You wanted it for your little record player. He wanted that little raspberry 45. Back then, race music was. Was red. So he sent Jesse Stone down, a black songwriter who wrote Shake, Rattle and Roll for Big Joe Turner. He sent him down here to see what the heck's happening, what's going on down here? Why are so many white teenagers ordering this black music? This forbidden black music wasn't allowed to be played on the radio. So Jesse comes down here, he goes to some of the juke joints, the clubs, he goes to church, Charlie's place. And he says, anything that's got that danceable backbeat, these white kids dance and they want it, they crave it, they love it. And he said, they're actually dancing with each other, blacks and whites. It was kind of an unusual moment in history.

[Leroy Brunson]

The only white music we had on our jukebox was Elvis Presley and the fourth Season.

[Reem Gise]

Back then, Dino was kind of like Leroy's shadow. If Leroy and his friends went to the movies, they had to sit in the balcony upstairs because they were black. Whites sat downstairs. But Leroy remembers, Dino snuck up there and sat with his friends.

[Leroy Brunson]

And the ushers would come down and they would run him downstairs. And when they run him down, he.

[Reem Gise]

Would sneak back at least once. Leroy says he. He got Dino out of some trouble for dancing with a girl who had a boyfriend. He also says Dino used to carry a small gun on him, which feels like an emulation of Charlie. Wherever Leroy went, Dino went. And because of that friendship, Leroy says no one bothered Dino, you know, because.

[Leroy Brunson]

He was friends of the boys. I would say, you understand?

[Reem Gise]

And on Saturday nights, the boys went to Charlie's place dressed up in their suits and ties.

[Dino Thompson]

I remember I was 14, and the place was packed, and I was sitting with Leroy Brunson and Seth King and some of their friends. Leroy said, would you like to dance with my girlfriend, who later became his wife, Costella. Very, very pretty lady. Young lady. Back then, she was probably 17. I'm 14. I said, yes. And so I asked across Della, would she like to dance? And we stepped about four feet away from the dance floor, and she stopped me. I had her hand, and she stopped me, and she said, you better know how to dance. I'll leave your ass right here on the dance floor. And I said, I can dance a bit. And I could dance.

[Reem Gise]

Dance at Charlie's place was a living, breathing thing. Never static, never stale. Dances were born and shifted into something else so fast, it was like trying to capture the outline of a cloud. By the time you decided what it was, it's already something new.

[Dino Thompson]

Every time I went to Charlie's place, every time they showed me a new dance every time. And so I'd go home and I'd work on a little bit, and the next time I'd go, Leroy would do this to me. He did this to me 50 times. I had the wobble down, so I went out there and I did the wobble. He said, we don't do that anymore. We now do the slop. And he'd show me the slop. But they were so creative. And I'm wondering who thinks of these dances? I always want to know somebody. Somebody thought this dance up, and it just spread like wildfire through the black community. And then it would infect us. We'd soon be doing the same dances. They stayed lower, and the whites seemed to stand up straighter. And then when they did the belly roll and the pivot, they did it lower. And so we used to love watching their style. They kind of dug watching what we did.

[Reem Gise]

Sometimes Dina would come ready to impress with a new dance step.

[Dino Thompson]

Because we go home and make up a step, and, you know, we always wanted to show it off. And if we went to Charlie's, we'd definitely show our new step off, and somebody would come up, go, show me that, you know, and they'd have it in 10 seconds.

[Reem Gise]

The dancers in Charlie's club say that they could see something magical was happening there at night. Segregation by day, integration by night. Through music and dance and just love for the movement. Black and white friends could dance together, partner together, teach each other, value each other's art, break through all the cruel, oppressive restraints of the walled world they lived in. No one thought about things like whether a black girl dipping her toe in the ocean would dirty the white children there. No one made threats over white KKK robes lying on a bed, because art was letting them move past all that art was showing the truth, showing how ridiculous and evil those barriers were.

[Dino Thompson]

And the music, dance lyrics, the creation of it more than any judges Gavel brought the races together from the 20s, 30s, 40s and 50s and all through Jim Crow.

[Apple Card Representative]

This message is brought to you by Apple Card I was just at a theme park in Florida with my almost 4 year old. Between enjoying the sunshine and the rides, the last thing I wanted to worry about was my wallet. That's why Apple Card with Apple Pay saved my vacation. One tap at check in and I was off to see the attractions. Every purchase from hot dogs and oh, we had hot dogs to T shirts earned me daily cash. Unlike waiting in line for a ride, there's no waiting until the end of the month for rewards, and my daily cash is automatically deposited into the savings account I open through Apple Card, where it earns interest. With Apple Pay's secure technology built right into my iPhone and Apple Watch, I paid at shops, restaurants and attractions without ever digging from my wallet. The best part? No fees, no hassles. I spent less time managing my money and more time doing nothing short of epic. Apply for Apple Card in the Wallet.

[Amazon Healthcare Representative]

App on your iPhone, subject to credit approval. Savings is available to Apple Card owners subject to eligibility. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.24% to 28.49% based on creditworthiness rates as of January 1, 2025. Savings in Apple Card by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch Member FDIC terms and [e-mail] you know what's not very fun? Having a million things to do. Work, kids, errands. And then someone gets sick. Suddenly you're juggling phone calls, appointments, driving across town, picking up meds. It's like, wait, did I just become a personal assistant? I remember the last time I caught the flu. I was right in the middle of not one, but two graduation ceremonies.

[Dino Thompson]

Think.

[Amazon Healthcare Representative]

No time to get tested or head somewhere to get the meds I needed. That's why Amazon One Medical is kind of genius. They've made it so much easier to see your provider often way faster. And you can do it virtually 24 7, literally from your phone, sitting in your car, at the office, even during your kid's practice. It makes everything so much simpler. No more calling the doctor, waiting on hold forever with the operator, only to learn there are no appointments for weeks. And when it comes to your meds, Amazon Pharmacy delivers right to your door. I feel like I always remember that my prescription is about to run out when it's like 4:48pm and the pharmacy is just about to close. With Amazon Pharmacy I can just place an order as soon as I realize look, healthcare is never really fun but with AmazonOne Medical and Amazon Pharmacy healthcare just got less painful.

[WashablesOfAs.com Representative]

Tired of spills and stains on your sofa? WashablesOfAs.com has your back featuring the Annabe collection, the only designer sofa that's machine washable inside and out where designer quality meets budget friendly prices. That's right, sofas start at just $699. Enjoy a no risk experience with pet friendly stain resistant and changeable slipcovers made with performance fabrics. Experience cloud like comfort with high resilience foam that's hypoallergenic and never needs fluffing. The sturdy steel frame ensures longevity and the modular pieces can be rearranged anytime. Check out washablesofas.com and get up to 60% off your Anna Bay sofa backed by a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not absolutely in love, send it back for a full refund. No return shipping or restocking fees. Every penny back. Upgrade [e-mail] Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Odoo Representative]

Business software is expensive, and when you buy software from lots of different companies, it's not only expensive, it gets confusing. Slow to use, hard to integrate. Odoo solves that because all Odoo software is connected on a single affordable platform. Save money without missing out on the features you need. Odoo has no hidden costs and no limit on features or data. Odoo has over 60 apps available for any needs your business might have, all at no additional charge. Everything from websites to sales to inventory to accounting. All linked and talking to each other. Check out Odoo at o d o o.com that's o d o o.com.

[Reem Gise]

A lot of the dancing was a variation of swing, but easily dozens of dances emerged during this time at Charlie's Place. The innovation came with the little moves and embellishments or a new step someone might add into the mix.

[Dino Thompson]

The frog, the wobble, the Watusi, the James Brown, the slop.

[Leroy Brunson]

And then there was the bump, the Hurly gully, the boogie woogie.

[Dino Thompson]

I saw the twist three years before the world was doing it at Charlie's Place.

[Reem Gise]

And then there was the shag.

[Dino Thompson]

Yeah, I did the shag.

[Leroy Brunson]

That was the main thing.

[Reem Gise]

This is the dance I heard mentioned the most. I mean, spend five minutes in Myrtle beach and you'll probably hear about it. Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, Home of the Shag South Carolina's official state dance, the shag. The shag started right here in Myrtle Beach. I heard about it everywhere and I wanted to know what all the hype was about. So I looked up some videos and here's how the ladies start again on the right foot. One and two, three and four, rock step. We are walking, we are not shuffling. We are actually picking our feet up, but so minimally that it looks like almost like a glide. I saw a lot of white people over the age of 60. From what I can tell, the shag is kind of like a moonwalk version of swing dance. Like it's smoother.

[Leroy Brunson]

Jojo and Joanne.

[Reem Gise]

At its best, it looks like the couples are gliding, creating an optical illusion of being on skates. The most skilled shaggers add their own flair. Single foot spins, swung out knees, legs that look like rubber as they swivel and twist.

[Leroy Brunson]

Shag dancing takes up a lot of space. Yeah, it takes up a lot.

[Dino Thompson]

So we tried to tailor our music to hugging and belly rubbing. Dance.

[Reem Gise]

I love it. Leroy and Dino and the others who danced at Charlie's Place remember the shag emerging. The fast athletic movements of the jitterbug or the lindy hop started to be replaced by a slower halftime speed.

[Dino Thompson]

We wanted to be cooler, smoother. That became a thing. And Billy Jeffers said, one of the great all time dancers, he said, well, he said we just started dancing like we talk kind of slow. And the girls liked it.

[Reem Gise]

And a lot of people told me the shag, South Carolina's pride and joy, was actually invented at Charlie's Place. I read an interview with the first black police officer in Myrtle Beach, a guy named Porkchop Hemingway. He was asked about the shag before he died and said, the shag of today is very different from the version at Charlie's Place. At Charlie's Place, it was called the Dirty Shag. And it was a bump and grind kind of thing where today's shag is a smooth dance. But he said the first person he ever saw do the shag anywhere was a girl from Ellery, South Carolina. That girl was Cynthia Harrell and her nickname was Shag.

[Dino Thompson]

A later dance with Cynthia Harrell, who they called Shaggy. And she was a heck of a good dancer because she had the old style swing and lindy style that she could do, which was fascinating to me. She could shake it down.

[Reem Gise]

Everyone at Charlie's Place wanted to dance with Cynthia. She worked there as a hostess and even lived with Charlie and Sarah for a time. She made frequent trips to New York and would bring back new moves she'd pick up at the dance hall in Harlem. Many people believe Cynthia, or Shag, was the inventor of the shag. And after hearing this a lot, I wanted to see if I could find out whether that was true. What I ultimately found is that it's pretty impossible to actually say who invented a social dance. And Thomas defrance, a dance scholar at Northwestern University, says that's because that question actually misses the point. He says naming a dance after someone is a way to honor them. It's not about ownership or invention at all, which he says are more capitalist ideas.

[Thomas de France]

We want to lift people up, and if we know their names, we say their names. It's very important to us as black Americans. It doesn't mean that they necessarily invented a dance. Like, that's kind of silly. Dance is invented in the relationship among people and music and the moment and the place.

[Reem Gise]

In other words, art is collective. In black American social dance, a dance is not invented by one person. It's something that happens on a dance floor among people.

[Thomas de France]

We create these things together. Art is not real estate, and we're not trying to sell a building. So we're not putting someone's name on a building and selling it to someone else. We're a collective kind of culture, and we think of the group as being essentially more important than the individual.

[Reem Gise]

When I started asking about Charlie's Place, the people on the Hill made sure I knew about Cynthia Harrell and the Shag, especially Roddy Brown. He remembers when white people came to the Hill. He says they came to watch them dance.

[Leroy Brunson]

Can we come and watch?

[Dino Thompson]

I said, yeah, you can come and watch. They want to see what the black people were doing.

[Reem Gise]

So I guess the black community here wasn't bothered by the fact that white people were coming into town, well into Charlie's, and mixing.

[Dino Thompson]

No, in fact, you're welcome. That's money, right?

[Reem Gise]

Roddy's dad owned Club Bamboo next door to Charlie's place. I talked with Roddy and a few of his friends in the old club. They sat around me in a circle. And for all the beautiful talk about white and black people coming together through dance at Charlie's Place, they also shared frustration about how the history was lost, papered over, and how over the decades, white people seem to have claimed the dance, forgetting its roots.

[Dino Thompson]

We started the Shag now.

[Leroy Brunson]

Stole that, stole that, took it out of North Myrtle.

[Reem Gise]

We used to do the Shag. This was dance was the Shag.

[Leroy Brunson]

They took that away. They stole that.

[Dino Thompson]

They stole it and Lied about it.

[Reem Gise]

I thought a lot about what integration at Charlie's Place meant. Maybe the people who actually benefited from the integration were the white people, not the black artists and patrons. Dance scholar Thomas de France helped me think about this. He pointed out, you have to recognize the effect of these two groups coming together when one group is actively and violently oppressing the other. What he said is something I'll always remember.

[Thomas de France]

There's not really a world, especially at the middle of the last century, where whites could generously or innocently watch African Americans in dance practice and think that their presence had no effect on the dancing. When we gather in our difference, but with a power relation that places whites in this supremacist sort of role, African Americans, we change our dancing. Our dancing might get stronger, it might get showier. We might be more femme and more aggressive. We might show off things we didn't know we could do, and we might dance less. We hide things, we hold things back. We don't show our best steps. We kind of remove some of the things that we know the dance is for, because in that dynamic, things are different. So while the connection of people through dancing is really important, we might all be a bit suspicious of thinking that dancing together means we understand each other. I just hope that the people who remember with great fondness how they were able to dance together can hold on to the fondness of the memory and also consider that that encounter was not the same for everyone who was in the encounter.

[Reem Gise]

The Greek kid, Dino practically lived on Carver Street. He'd go over there to dance, of course, but also to gamble, play cards and shoot pool. When he went by Charlie's place, he promised Ms. Sarah he wouldn't create a problem. Promised no white boy would get beat up inside Charlie's place.

[Leroy Brunson]

Place.

[Reem Gise]

But like Dino said, with him, fights just sort of happened. And as Roddy Brown said, things could get rowdy at Charlie's Place.

[Dino Thompson]

Totally carnal. I would Sin City.

[Reem Gise]

Dino had to learn his place.

[Dino Thompson]

I remember this one occasion, a fellow was real drunk and he was leaning over. He was kind of spitting on me. When he was talking, he was just drunk. And I shoved him back. And when I did, he kind of took a swing right over the top of my head. And I ducked and I got up, it was kind of ready for him to swing again. And all of a sudden, Robert Gore had him by two arms.

[Reem Gise]

Robert was a bouncer there.

[Dino Thompson]

Robert was 6 foot 4, 270 pounds. He could pick anybody off the ground. He had him off ground and he was hollering. As he was being pulled away. He said, you're chicken shit. You're hiding behind Ms. Sarah's skirt.

[Reem Gise]

Dino says he turned to Ms. Sarah and told her what the guy had said. He explained that they'd take it out back. No one would know about it.

[Dino Thompson]

I just couldn't stand being told I was chicken. So she told me. Robert, he searched him, and he had a pretty big knife, which would have spoiled my day, and he took it from me. We went out back, and he was drinking pretty good. He took a couple swings, and I stepped inside, and I popped him twice, and he went down. The fight was over. She said, that's it. It's over. And Robert told him, get the hell off the property.

[Reem Gise]

Then Ms. Sarah stepped in.

[Dino Thompson]

She stepped up, and she pulled her skirt up to her upper thigh. And she said, next time, you'll deal with me. This is what hides under my skirt. And she had a little pistol taped to her thigh. From that day on, I looked at her just a bit different than I did from that time on.

[Reem Gise]

Ms. Sarah wasn't just protecting Dino. She was protecting everyone in that club. At a time when any black person could be lynched. Dino was learning from Miss Sarah how careful you had to be in this racist time. But he also learned from Charlie that you don't take things lying down. It was during one of the card games in the back room of the club that Dino says he saw that side of Charlie.

[Dino Thompson]

My dad and I would go sit back there and watch the game, and Charlie would wander by. And you could see from his facial expressions he was telling somebody to shut up without saying anything. I never forgot that he would just say Glenn. And Glenn would turn around and he would just look at him. And that meant you running your mouth too much or whatever it was. And I could. Even then, I could tell the vibe was saying and that they respected him and also feared him. He was not a big man, you know, he was slender built, but there was something about him that made people think, do not f. With Charlie.

[Reem Gise]

In Charlie's place, Dino wasn't just learning how to dance. He was learning how to be in the world, how and when to not be chicken shit. Because Charlie was not never chicken. Two opposite lessons from this couple. There's a time you fight, and there's a time you don't. And you have to think hard about which one it's going to be and when. Coming up on Charlie's place.

[Leroy Brunson]

McLan has been over here, and they.

[Dino Thompson]

Say they're coming back, and the people are not going to sit back and be slaughtered like dogs.

[Reem Gise]

They will fight as they come back.

[Leroy Brunson]

And there'll be some bloodshed.

[Reem Gise]

Charlie's Place is a production of Atlas Obscura and Rococo Punch, in partnership with Pushkin Industries and presented by Visit Myrtle Beach. It's written and produced by Emily Forman. Our story editor is Erica Lance. Our team at Atlas Obscura is Doug Baldinger, Chris Naka, Johanna Mayer, Linda Lobel and Emily Yates. You can follow us on Instagram. Atlas Obscura Please head to charliesplacesshow.com for more information about the locations mentioned in the series and how you can visit yourself. I'm Reem Gise. Thanks for listening. Binge the entire season of Charlie's Place ad free by subscribing to Pushkin. Sign up on the show page on Apple Podcasts or Pushkin FM plus Pushkin subscribers can access ad free episodes, full audiobooks and exclusive binges of other true crime podcasts throughout the year.

[Odoo Representative]

When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out odoo@o d o o.com that's o d o o dot com.

[LifeLock Representative]

You're great at protecting your own personal information. You probably even use things like two factor authentication, strong passwords and a vpn. But as much as you try to be in control of how your information is protected, there are lots of places that also have it and they might not be as careful as you are. That's why LifeLock monitors millions of data points every second for identity threats. If your identity is stolen, a LifeLock US based restoration specialist will help solve identity theft issues on your behalf, guaranteed or your money back. Plus, all LifeLock plans are backed by the million dollar protection package, meaning LifeLock will reimburse you up to the limits of your plan. If you lose money due to identity theft. You might not be able to control how others handle your personal information, but you can help protect it with LifeLock. Save up to 40% your first year. Call 1-800-LIFELOCK and use promo code IHEART or go to lifelock.com iheart for 40% off terms apply.