What happens when our modern visual culture, which demands we constantly observe global atrocities on our phones, actually leads to apathy instead of a meaningful moral response?

The University of Chicago's Associate Professor of English Language and Literature, Dr. Ben Saltzman, joins host PJ Wehry to discuss the overlooked significance of a common, deeply human reaction.

Dr. Saltzman explores the history and meaning of this physical act in his book, Turning Away, The Poetics of an Ancient Gesture. They examine how looking away is frequently not a sign of disengagement, but rather an indication of deep emotional involvement, and how understanding this can help us navigate the horrors of the contemporary world.

In this conversation they explore:

How the book traces archaic scenes—like the ancient painting of Agamemnon's sacrifice of Iphigenia—by treating them as rocks tossed into a pool, following their cultural and artistic ripples across time.
The surprising realization that turning away from a distressing event often signifies a deep engagement with the pain of the world, rather than simple indifference.
Why our contemporary habit of scrolling through images of suffering on our phones can create a false sense of moral duty while actually fostering an empty act of looking.
The concept of the divided soul, exemplified by Plato's tale of Leontius, which demonstrates how humans experience an inner conflict and oscillation between looking and turning away.
How ancient rhetoric and art utilized the covered face to convey states of emotional extremity that existed entirely at the limits of representation.
The relationship between covering one's eyes and the acquisition of painful knowledge, illustrated by figures ranging from a newly fallen Adam and Eve to a young girl watching a cruel scientific experiment on a bird.

This is a conversation for anyone interested in literary studies, art history, and the humanities who wants to understand the historical weight behind our everyday instincts and how we process the painful realities of our modern age.

Make sure to check out Dr. Saltzman's book: Turning Away: The Poetics of an Ancient Gesture 👉 https://www.amazon.com/dp/0226847225

Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud.

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop.

Timestamps
0:00 Introducing Ben Saltzman

1:09 Adam, Eve, and Turning Away

4:38 Noticing The Gesture of Turning Away in Life and Art

5:54 What Poetics Means For This Ancient Gesture

9:19 Greek Chorus Structure and The Rock and Ripples Metaphor

10:38 Agamemnon, Grief, and The Limits of Representation

16:27 The Moral Center of Turning Away Versus Indifference

23:21 Plato’s Leontius and The Ambivalence of Looking And Not Looking

32:43 Adam And Eve, Knowledge, and Death Across Art History

38:22 Science, Suffering, and The Cost Of Knowledge

44:22 Turning Away in the Digital Age and Our Inherited Iconography

46:57 Closing Thoughts