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- [00:03]
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
You know, I was having dinner with my family the other night, telling a story, and right in the middle of it, my wife said, wait, that's not what happened. And I thought to myself, okay, this.
- [00:15]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Is kind of classic during the holidays, right?
- [00:18]
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
You're around the table swapping stories, and suddenly it feels like everyone lived a slightly different version of the exact same moment. That was wild. And it got me wondering, how could that be? How can two people, same place, same event, same time, and yet remember it completely differently?
- [00:39]
Dr. Signe Sheldon
Why do I remember something and my brother doesn't? Why do me and my sister have very different recounts of the same exact experience?
- [00:47]
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
We have My guest today is Dr. Signe Sheldon. She's an associate professor of psychology at McGill University who researches how our brains store memories and why some of us lock onto these sights and sounds while others remember the feeling of the story, the meaning, the takeaway. And, you know, with the holidays coming up, we're probably going to be sitting around sharing a lot of stories. So I decided it'd be a good time to dig a little deeper into this topic. How do we tell stories with the people we love in a way that helps us connect and instead of giving us a reason to disagree? I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, and this is Chasing Life.
- [01:35]
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- [02:06]
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- [02:38]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
So I just wanted to tell you that just the whole idea behind the work that you do, I think is endlessly fascinating and so intimate to how people, I think, recount stories. And how did you originally get interested in this area?
- [02:50]
Dr. Signe Sheldon
Well, how I got interested in memory comes from the fact that I do have a large family and we have a lot of shared experiences. So I have six siblings and there was a lot of experiences that we would have and Then we come back and we would all recount that event quite differently. So there was this one memory I have of my brother and I were biking and I fell off my bike. And then this person swooped out of a limo, came in and helped me off my bike. And I remember talking to my brother about this, and I say, oh, remember this happens? And he goes, I have no idea. I don't remember that this happened at all. And just seeing the differences in how memory operates in my family, and I mean, I wasn't thinking that at the time. I'm just like, what's going on? I feel a little crazy. Why do I remember something and my brother doesn't? Why did me and my sister have very different recounts of the same exact experience we have? And I think those questions are something that's just always stuck with me and just something that I always kept coming back to.
- [03:53]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
An experience like that you falling off your bike, or as you say, maybe somebody had a negative experience, but somebody else remembers it differently.
- [04:01]
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
How much does that have to do.
- [04:02]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
With what you're bringing to the equation? In the first place?
- [04:06]
Dr. Signe Sheldon
Our memories are not stored as files in our brain or these static images that you just kind of grab out every time you recount them. In fact, memories are these flexible, dynamic recreations. So every time that you recount an experience, you actually have to rebuild that memory at that very moment. And the hippocampus is the epicenter for memory formation and retrieval. When you are going to retrieve an experience, your hippocampus is going to search for certain types of details of that event that are stored in a distributed network across your brain. And what's really amazing is that your hippocampus can do this flexibly, so it can build different versions of whatever experience that you're bringing to mind.
- [04:56]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Do these different types of ways of remembering things serve different purposes?
- [05:00]
Dr. Signe Sheldon
Absolutely. So you can think of three main functions. One, we have memories to serve directive functions. And this is so we can use whatever we learned from the past to. To help survive and solve problems and plan for the future. So if I ran into a bear in the forest, I am going to want to remember those specific details in such a way that next time I'm in a similar forest, I know not to turn left and see that bear. And we're going to have to remember in a very detailed manner in order for us to have this directive problem solving function. But there's two other very important functions of memory. One is to help us form a sense of self. And this sort of continuity of self throughout a lifetime. So for me to know who I am, I actually rely on my memory system to validate and help me establish characteristics of my identity. So this brings me to the third really important function of memory, and that's to form social connections and bonds with people around us. We reminisce about the past, we imagine scenarios with other people in, in a way to connect and create community. And when we do that, we don't want to focus on these very precise details of exactly where I was in that particular moment in time. We actually want to focus on the core meaning, maybe the feelings and interpretations to connect with other people. So why we have this sort of flexibility in memory is exactly to serve these different functions.
- [06:40]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Are there so called memory personality traits?
- [06:43]
Dr. Signe Sheldon
Absolutely. So up until, you'd say a few years ago, we really didn't know anything about how people tend to engage in real world remembering. And this is because the study of memory was really focused on how people would learn lists in labs, or they give people images and say study this and then remember this later on. But that's really not how we use memory when we're in our day to day life. So what we did is we gave participants questionnaire that asked them how they used memories and how they preferred to remember in the real world. And we focused on two dimensions. This one dimension of people who tended to prefer to remember events with a lot of perceptual detail, Focusing on exactly what they experienced when that event occurred and telling it like it is. And then these other individuals who I'm gonna call conceptual remembers, who tend to focus on the meaning and interpreting a memory when they recount it. So these are people who are gonna tell you the importance of an event that they had. So let's say they went to a wedding, they're gonna focus on the feelings that they had and the joy of the people around them. And then we scan their brains and what we found is that those people who have this conceptual memory personality trait, their hippocampus was connected to regions of the brain that are really important in processing meaning, in interpreting information, and also emotion. The other individuals who preferred to recall their past by focusing on sensory and perceptual details, Lo and behold, we see the hippocampus was just intrinsically connected to regions of the brain that are involved in creating images, so visual and auditory images. So what we can see is that these two forms of remembering, this just preference for engaging in conceptual and perceptual remembering, really has some ground truth in how the Brain is just naturally wired in individuals.
- [09:00]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Let's try a little experiment here to try and put a fine point on all this. We're going to tell each other the same short holiday memory in two ways, okay? Perceptual versus conceptual, and see if you at home can hear the difference. I will start with a holiday story, and I'm not even going to say if this is conceptual or perceptual. Here we go. A little later, the smoke alarm went off and we all just started laughing. Dinner was basically a mess, but nobody cared. We ate what we could, shared stories, and joked through it all. I remember thinking that the holidays aren't about the food. They're about enjoying the chaos, the laughter, and having everyone together. So that is one version of the story. Now, if you don't mind, Doctor, you read the second version.
- [09:44]
Dr. Signe Sheldon
Okay, well, this is how I would recount that story. A little later, the smoke alarm started blaring. Mom was frantically waving a red towel under it. The oven was wide open and smoke was pouring out everywhere. The dog was barking. Someone dropped a plate and it smashed, and the kitchen smelt like burnt stuffing. We opened the windows and then freezing cold air rushed in and everyone started laughing.
- [10:14]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Okay, so now the audience has heard both versions of the story. They may have their own ideas on which is which, which is more conceptual, which is more percept, but can you talk us through it?
- [10:25]
Dr. Signe Sheldon
Dr. Well, if you can see in that first version of the story, what you're focusing on, Sanjay, when you're telling that story is the experience that people were having. So the emotions and you're interpreting what was happening when you're telling it. Okay, so a lot of those details that you gave us when you're telling that story didn't actually happen in that moment. So you didn't know that dinner was a mess or that nobody cared. That's something that you're inferring. And to do that, you have to use your own knowledge and integrate it with the actual experience. Now, when I'm telling that story, I'm focusing on just recounting it exactly as it occurred. So I'm not trying to interpret anything. I'm essentially describing what I see as if it's a video that I'm watching.
- [11:11]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
That is so fascinating. And I guess one would ask why, right? Why don't humans sort of all just remember the same way? And again, you alluded to this. It serves different functions, but is one better than the other?
- [11:25]
Dr. Signe Sheldon
So I don't think that one is better than the other. In fact, Being flexible between these forms of remembering is actually the best. So, for example, let's say I have a memory of the first day I adopted my dog. If I'm going to tell that memory to someone who wants to know, like, how did I go through the process of adopting a dog? Right. I'm gonna recount that differently than if somebody says, tell me about a very happy moment from your life. So I need to shift from perhaps a more perceptual form of remembering for someone who needs the details of how to get something done, to a more conceptual, more emotional form of remembering when I wanna share an important story. So, again, it's the flexibility between these memory systems that is what's gonna lead to a really healthy and functional use of our memory. But we do see that there are certain people that tend to be more conceptual or perceptual remembers. And this can be driven by a whole host of things. So your occupation, if you tend to be someone who's really focused on details, then you're likely going to just create more pathways in your brain that are aligned with this perceptual form of remembering. If you're, let's say, a storyteller or in theater, then this conceptual form of remembering might be your preference because this is something that you're training your daily life and that can affect how your brain is just functionally wired together.
- [12:59]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Is there something you could do right now, even with me, with regard to trying to probe out if someone is more of a conceptual rememberer or not? How would you sort of parse that out with somebody?
- [13:09]
Dr. Signe Sheldon
Okay. So do you have a dog?
- [13:12]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
I do. I have two dogs.
- [13:13]
Dr. Signe Sheldon
You have two dogs. Okay. Did you take your dogs for a walk yesterday or the day before?
- [13:18]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
I did, and I took them this morning.
- [13:20]
Dr. Signe Sheldon
I want you to tell me exactly what happened. So start at the beginning and tell me everything that you saw, heard, smelled, touched and so forth.
- [13:31]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
One dog we let off leash, and the other dog we keep on leash because he's a little bit more likely to wander off and never come back. The dog that's off leash, Bruno, he runs up and down these paths, you know, into the leaves and back and forth and gets super excited. And if he sees squirrels, he chases them. He did that a few times. There was one time when he got a little too far away and we called him and he didn't come back right away. I remember that. We put him back on leash if there's other dogs we see walking in the neighborhood just so he doesn't hassle them. And and it's about a, you know, three mile walk, and it was a really beautiful morning. Just the air was really crisp and it felt really good.
- [14:10]
Dr. Signe Sheldon
Okay, so what I notice is that you're giving us a lot of explanation. So you're saying we put him back on leash because we don't want Bruno to attack other dogs. So that didn't actually happen in that moment. That wasn't something you perceived. You're interpreting. You're providing that interpretation or that conceptual information. Somebody who's more of a perceptual rememberer might say, we put the brown leash on Bruno's harness and we clip it on the back. And then we kept walking past a coffee shop with a blue awning and four people sitting outside. So you can see that there's different ways that people can recount the same event.
- [14:52]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
I would feel like if I were the listener of that story, it's too much detail, because what difference does it make to me that the leash was brown?
- [15:00]
Dr. Signe Sheldon
Yeah. Well, think about it like, if you're on an eyewitness stand and somebody says, tell me exactly what happened, then you're going to have to recount that with those perceptual details. It doesn't matter that Bruno might attack some other neighborhood dogs if they're off leash. What matters is when you clipped that leash onto the harness and where exactly you were. But you're right. Like, if you're in a social situation and you start talking about the brown leash, who cares? It doesn't matter. So what makes a really good story and what's gonna connect with somebody else is sharing this story at a more implicational and meaning level and, like, really focusing on the emotion and what was felt. And when you do that, when you describe these memories more conceptually what happened, how you felt, it's more likely that you're gonna capture shared information of your audience. Not everybody you're talking to has a brown leash. Not everybody has a dog named Bruno. But people do know that feeling of like, well, I don't want my dog to be attacked by another dog, or, I don't want my dog attacking another dog. They can connect that to something that they know. When we have these overlapping memories, that is where those memories become collective and they help to really form a community and a connection.
- [16:19]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
By the way, just in case sweet Bruno is listening to this podcast, I never suggested that you would attack another dog. Just to be clear, I'm in my mid-50s now. Do you think that my memory, personality traits are different now than when I was in my mid-30s or mid-20s, maybe perhaps becoming more conceptual in terms of my memory.
- [16:39]
Dr. Signe Sheldon
Absolutely. When you're younger, there's a lot of new things that you encounter. You're often moving to new places, you're starting new jobs, you're walking down these new streets. You might be trying Thai food for the first time. And those novel situations don't have a lot of meaning to them when you first experience them. So these experiences are things that you're going to really try to focus on all the detail because you don't know what's important yet to pay attention to and to hold in your memory when you're in these new situations. As we get older, two things happen. One, we are often in more familiar environments, so we're often around our family on a more regular basis. We. We tend to work and live in places that we've been in for a long time. And this sense of familiarity is something that will activate a more conceptual form of remembering. And it's a good thing because this means that we can use all this knowledge that we have accrued over the lifetime to help us with memory. And it also helps us focus on the meaning, which often is what's really, really important from our experiences.
- [17:58]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Is it robbing Peter to pay Paul to have one versus the other? Like, can you be really good at both? Or are you naturally going to be robbing some of the skills of one to enhance the other?
- [18:09]
Dr. Signe Sheldon
I think that you can have a preference for one versus the other, and that's something that we see shift with age. But again, it's the ability to then say, okay, here's my preference. You know, I really like this form of remembering, but I know it's not gonna serve me well in this certain situation. That's the key to a good memory.
- [18:31]
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
Now coming up, Dr. Sheldon explains how our memories evolve each time we tell them. Okay, so each time you tell a story, it may shift a little bit. Why? She's also gonna share a few tips as you head home for the holidays and offers a fun activity to try with your family this season. That's after the break.
- [18:52]
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- [19:30]
Dr. Signe Sheldon
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- [19:55]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
In one of those versions Is the story being rewritten? In some ways, if you're not remembering all the details, does the story evolve? Does the memory evolve over time?
- [20:07]
Dr. Signe Sheldon
You know, every time that you actually recount a memory, that's a chance for that memory to evolve and change. So what we know is that our memories aren't stored statically, they're actually stored in a very flexible manner. So if I'm recalling something with more perceptual details, that memory might become more detailed in a future retelling of it. If I'm recalling that memory with more conceptual details, well, guess what, those conceptual details, that interpretation is going to be baked into that memory. So in that respect, both of them are shifting how you store your memories and the way that you can recall it later on. But with the conceptual memory, what you're doing is you're tethering it to other knowledge that we have and you're giving it a sort of deeper meaning. And those memories, those details, those conceptual forms of recounting, those are the ones that we actually know, are less prone to forgetting than the more perceptual details. So if you want to tell somebody a story that matters, then you better do it at a conceptual level.
- [21:16]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Are the memories inaccurate or are they all accurate memories just sort of perceived and then represented differently?
- [21:24]
Dr. Signe Sheldon
I think this comes down to the fact that memories don't necessarily have to be the truth. So I think trying to figure out what is the truth of a memory is doing a disservice to the functions of the memory system. The function of the memory system really is not to recount exactly what happened in the past. Every single time you think about it, the function of our memory system is actually to be flexible so we can build hypothetical futures so we can adapt and shift and know how to survive and thrive in our present moment.
- [22:02]
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
It's so interesting.
- [22:03]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
And there is a ground truth though still, right? I Mean, even though how the stories are subsequently recalled and recounted, there's still.
- [22:13]
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
A truth to it.
- [22:15]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
There was a smoke alarm that still went off. Dinner was, if not a mess, at least it wasn't what it was supposed to be. You know, there was chaos. Like, there's truths no matter the type of memory.
- [22:28]
Dr. Signe Sheldon
Right. So in that respect, the perceptual form of remembering is going to be a more accurate depiction of the external world. But in terms of a ground truth, we can also say that there's a truth about what somebody's experiencing in their internal world during this messy burnt dinner, that someone's having it at a holiday. So one way to think about it is that it's just the focus of attention when you're either forming a memory or recounting it, you're either focusing outwards on exactly what happened, which is what we think of as a more truth like recount of the past, or you're going to focus inwards when you're recalling that memory and think about the interpretations and emotions and whether that is reflecting the ground truth of how somebody felt at that moment. That's really hard for us to tell. But I. I'm hesitant to say one is more reflective of the truth than the other. They're just reflecting different focuses of our attention.
- [23:27]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
One of the reasons we wanted to talk about this now is people are listening to this podcast. They may be embarking on a time when they're getting together with family, sitting around, creating stories, and probably sharing a lot of stories as well. It's an emotional time during the holidays. You know, family getting together, emotional good, hopefully. Does that change how we remember things when we experience stories over the holidays?
- [23:51]
Dr. Signe Sheldon
Absolutely. I think there's a couple of things that happen around the holidays. One is that we're often reminded of holidays from the past. And we might bring up that holiday dinner that we had in 2024, in 2004, in 1986, let's say. If we can go that far back, and then we might start to compare our current holiday meal to the ones from our past. So we have sort of a schema or a general understanding of how holidays will work. And when those match, that's great. But when they mismatch, that's when something becomes very noticed. And those kinds of memories, that mismatch between our expectations of holidays and our current experience, that can let us focus on more of the precise details. Cause we're trying to figure out what happened.
- [24:46]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Is this mismatch between expectations and experience, is that a bad thing? Is that how you're presenting it.
- [24:52]
Dr. Signe Sheldon
So a mismatch between our expectations and our experience will trigger something in the brain called a prediction error signal. What your brain is saying is, hey, what we expected happened in the past. So all these beautiful holiday dinners we have is not happening right now. So what am I going to do? Am I either going to say, well, this experience I'm having, that's the error, or is my expectations the error? So it's not a bad thing, but it depends how your brain and you treat it. Are you going to say this experience is just a one off, or are you going to say, hey, I'm having a negative holiday event? Actually, my understanding that the holidays are a special time, I gotta change that. They're not so great. So my suggestion is that if you start to find yourself feeling a bit negative or you're feeling a little crusty, what you want to do is just say, this is an exception, it's not the expectation.
- [25:54]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
I think this is probably really good advice because I think that mismatch that you're talking about I think happens a lot. Sometimes I feel like no matter what, the current experience cannot live up to previous expectations. So the idea then that you don't say, well, this is terrible, but you acknowledge the fact that the current experience can't possibly live up to previous expectations.
- [26:20]
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
Or that this is just as good.
- [26:22]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
You just haven't recognized it yet.
- [26:23]
Dr. Signe Sheldon
Yeah, exactly. And it will in your memory later on when you start to recount it and add in those interpretations and feelings and emotions. You haven't done that yet when you're experiencing something. So the emotions and the importance of an event only come out later on when we form a memory and we reshape that memory with retellings of it. So if you're currently having this holiday dinner, you're like, this isn't as fun as it should be. Just wait till you think about it next year and it's probably gonna be recounted with a lot of joy and happiness.
- [26:58]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Do you have any advice on how people should tell stories with the family this holiday season?
- [27:04]
Dr. Signe Sheldon
My advice, sharing stories, is that what you want to do is you want to rely on the meaning of an event, because these are the ones that really do help us tell a good story. But an interesting activity for a family to do over the holidays is think of an experience you all share together. So think about, you know, that trip that you all took together and have everybody recount it and see how those memories are similar, but also how they're different. And don't be upset at the difference. Just notice them. When you're focusing on the conceptual aspects of a memory, people are bringing their knowledge to the table. So that knowledge is going to be different. We're all shaped differently from our past, and therefore we're going to have different interpretations of an event. And I think just noticing that and, you know, not assigning value, whether it's good or bad to it, but just say, hey, this is how memory works. And isn't this interesting? That might be a little bit more fun than a game of risk with the family.
- [28:12]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
It's just wild how memory works.
- [28:14]
Dr. Signe Sheldon
Yeah.
- [28:14]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
And a really good thing to be mindful of, I think, this holiday season. Thank you.
- [28:19]
Dr. Signe Sheldon
Thanks so much. It was such a pleasure.
- [28:22]
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
That was Dr. Signe Sheldon, associate professor of psychology at McGill University. Happy holidays, everyone. Hope you get plenty of time to share stories with your family. And hopefully this podcast gave you a little something to bring to the table. Thanks so much for listening. Hey there. It's Sanjay. And I wanted to take a moment.
- [28:52]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
To simply say thank you. Thank you for being here.
- [28:56]
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
You know, I've been thinking about this.
- [28:57]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Past year a lot on chasing life.
- [28:59]
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
Over 83 episodes, more than 32 hours.
- [29:03]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Of science and storytelling.
- [29:05]
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
But I gotta tell you, what really.
- [29:06]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Stuck with me was you, the listener and the questions. During paging Dr. Gupta, for example, you.
- [29:13]
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
Asked so many questions, you left so many comments.
- [29:16]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
You gave us your thoughts. And health is intimate, so there's many, many things that you're sharing that are deeply personal. Sometimes the questions didn't always have easy answers. So we dug and dug and those questions pushed us to keep learning and growing ourselves so we can understand ourselves.
- [29:34]
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
All humans, more deeply.
- [29:35]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
So I just want to say thank you. You've helped make this show what it is. Stay curious.
- [29:40]
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
And here's to another year of chasing life.
- [29:45]
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- [29:59]
Dr. Signe Sheldon
Com.