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- [00:01]
Sleep Number Ad
There's a reason the Sleep Number Smart bed is the number one best bed for couples. It's because you can each choose what's right for you whenever you like. Firmer or softer on either side. Sleep number does that. One side cooler and the other side warmer. Sleep number does that too. You have to feel it to believe it. Sleep better together. And now save 50% on the new Sleep number limited edition smart bed, limited time, exclusively at a Sleep number store near you. See storerorsleepnumber.com for details.
- [00:31]
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
Welcome to chasing life. You know we're finally settling into the new year, but I have to tell you, as winter drags on, I've been feeling a little stuck lately. It's hard to describe, but just harder and harder for me to find the motivation. I'm increasingly content to just sort of lie around the house as opposed to getting up and doing things. And I got to tell you, in times like these, a little boost, just a little boost of something I find can go a long way. And that's what I wanted to talk about today on the podcast, something known as a dopa menu.
- [01:06]
Eric Tivers
It's kind of a creative project meets sort of list of strategies to use. You know, it's, it's, in some ways it's like a portion of a self care plan.
- [01:15]
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
That's Eric Tivers, ADHD coach, host of the podcast ADHD Rewired and yes, creator of something known as the dopa menu. Now it's exactly what it sounds like. It is a menu of stimulating or healthy activities that are designed to boost your dopamine. That's the brain chemical that drives motivation and reward.
- [01:36]
Eric Tivers
So we have everything from like our, our appetizers, which is like the little things, you know, the going for a quick walk or having a snack or putting some music on or lighting the candle. Just little things like that that are pretty low effort.
- [01:55]
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
The idea is pretty simple, that it can help brains like Tivers stay engaged. Now, he was diagnosed with adhd at age 19, right as he was on the brink of flunking out of college. But with that diagnosis came a major shift in his life and a new understanding of how his brain works.
- [02:12]
Eric Tivers
A neurotypical brain is kind of like a soundboard or a mixer, right? You can adjust the different channels up and down to get more volume on what you want, less on what you don't. Neurotypical brains do this automatically. An ADHD brain. Everything's just turned up.
- [02:28]
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
So nowadays he's dedicated to helping others find ways to work with their brains Instead of working against it, people with.
- [02:36]
Eric Tivers
ADHD have an interest based nervous system where most people have an importance based nervous system. You know, the thing is important, so you prioritize that and get that thing done. For people with ADHD and other neurodivergent people, because we have this intraspace nervous system, it is super hard to actually do the boring thing.
- [03:04]
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
Now I want to tell you right off the bat, this is not just for people with adhd.
- [03:10]
Eric Tivers
It's like the people with adhd. We need to use these strategies, but these are often really great strategies for everybody.
- [03:16]
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
We're going to help you create your own dopa menu today and we're going to break down how it works, why it matters, and how very simple shifts can boost your motivation and also bring more joy to your day. I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN's chief medical correspondent, and this is Chasing Life.
- [03:36]
Eric Tivers
I was always kind of a very eh student. Like, not great, not awful, but not great. And when I started getting really good grades, it kind of was like a drug, right? I was like, ooh, I got like, oh, A is going to be this. I need this again. Like in grad school, I finished with the 4.0. And at the time that was like, I look at that as huge accomplishment. In retrospect, when I think about, well, what did it actually take me to be able to do that? I was sleeping two hours a night maybe. It was so unhealthy. And I realized that I had kind of done that in my adult life as well. And I just got to this point where the work that I do to me is so important. I do ADHD coaching and I do a lot of group stuff. My primary way of marketing is through my podcast, ADHD rewired. And during COVID like, everyone and their mother started an ADHD podcast. So suddenly the stuff that, like, I had built and scaled and was going wonderfully, now all of a sudden there was like, the marketplace for ADHD coaching got very crowded and the ADHD podcast landscape got very crowded. And so I was having to put in all this extra work and I wasn't getting the same results from was a very inconvenient time to be burnt out. And you ignore that long enough and it's like life's going to kind of tell you to stop. And so I went through that and was burning out really, really bad. And I know if I were to try to continue this way, even for another year, that'll be it, I'll be done. And now I'm like, how about let's focus on the excitement of energy sustainability, which doesn't sound as sexy, but like the go, go, go, the hustle culture, it's so toxic.
- [05:20]
Interviewee
I feel like I'm getting a chance to just sort of sit inside your mind a little bit here and hear how you sort of, you know, reckoned with many of these things that have go. Give me an idea of like where, where did this, this idea of a dopamine menu come from?
- [05:34]
Eric Tivers
So it kind of came out organically. I was having a conversation with Jessica McCabe from how to ADHD and we were talking about like ways that we combat boredom. Right. And I've always been kind of into wordplay and really bad dad jokes and it kind of just came out like it was basically I was doing some wordplay and she's like, oh, that's really good. And she really liked it. And so that's kind of was the origin of the idea of the dopa menu. Because this idea of, you know, it's like we don't want to go to the grocery store hungry. Right. So it's sort of this idea of. Yeah, like when we're bored, like that's not the time to think about what we want to do. Like, because otherwise we're just going to grab our phones and scroll for way longer than we meant to.
- [06:23]
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
So what, what is it?
- [06:25]
Interviewee
Is it an actual menu?
- [06:26]
Eric Tivers
Yeah, yeah. So it's kind of like a creative project meets sort of list of strategies to, to use. You know, it's, it's in some ways it's like a portion of a self care plan. So we have everything from like our, our appetizers, which is like the little things, you know, the going for a quick walk or I'm having a snack or you know, putting some music on or lighting the candle, like just little things like that that are pretty low effort but still can be helpful or adding things. So. All right, so you're doing the dishes, you're cooking, but on a podcast, right. Or you know, things like that that just add a little bit more stimulation.
- [07:07]
Interviewee
For the brain and how, how different is this person to person? Is it everyone come up with their own dopa menu?
- [07:15]
Eric Tivers
Absolutely, Absolutely. It's actually cool. I was doing some searches online and I just put in a dopa menu and then an image search and I actually came up. There's a lot of people who have posted their own dopam menus and I've seen some really, really cool versions of this. And then one of the things that I've done on my own dope menu is I'll also put in like seasonality. I'll put in like how much sort of dopamine that particular activity tends to deliver for me. Right. So I, I typically will rate it between 1 to 5. Interesting. So it's like you'll see it like an alcohol menu, right? It's like it's priced by how much you think I even have on their desserts which are kind of like the anti dopamine. It's like grabbing your phone to just scroll on social media, you know, drinking, drugging, those kinds of things. The things that are not healthy, right. Like watching another episode of whatever show you have on Netflix. Right. Like we're trying to stimulate our brain but like there's a net loss, you know, I think that's also an important thing to, to consider when we're taking like a break from, from work. Right. So we're, we're stressed, whatever. We've been at it for a while. So we, let's say we hop on to whatever our social media, you know, channel of choice is. And sure, maybe that gives us a sort of a plus one on our dopamine. Except transitioning and stopping, which are executive functions, costs you two.
- [08:40]
Interviewee
That's interesting, right?
- [08:41]
Eric Tivers
It's kind of thinking about like oh wait, yeah, that is actually not worth it.
- [08:45]
Interviewee
That's really interesting because when I first read about this I thought to myself, look, we have a pretty good idea of what makes us feel good. Comfort foods, desserts, doom scrolling. Maybe that doesn't make us feel good. But cluster watching television or binge watching television, whatever. But at the same time you take it the extra step to say okay, we realize that may give you a plus one, but what is the cost of that as well? That has to fit into the menu.
- [09:13]
Eric Tivers
Absolutely, absolutely. I'm actually pulling mine up. So for my appetizers I have eat lunch away from the desk. I have play a fish jam. I'm a big fan of the band Fish. I've seen them like that sometimes. Listen to a podcast, listen to a Ted Talk, go outside, watch YouTube videos on motorcycles. And I put a time limit on there as well for 10 to 15 minutes guided meditation. Then I have for my entrees which, and then I have underneath that says bigger and more satisfying pickleball. Go for a bike ride, go for a walk on a nice day, playing piano and guitar, listening to great music, play ping pong motorcycle ride, listen to an audiobook, engage in a new hobby, journaling, drawing, doing something fun with my Son Gibson getting a massage. And on that I have to have a little calendar icon and a dollar icon because you know, some things cost money. Tidying up, which fluctuates for me. Sometimes that is an aversive task, sometimes it feels good. So it just kind of depends. Searching for concerts to go see, playing with my cats, learning any song on piano, reviewing my bucket list, reviewing long term goals, reviewing my current mission. Because I think it's important to, to remind yourself of the why often when you have adhd, otherwise you're just like doing a task list and if you don't feeling connected to it, like it's super hard to get really engaged in that. And then I have my desserts, as I mentioned, I have scrolling video games, sugary treats, staying up late. So those are the things that like aren't great yet. I tend to, you know, those are things that I will go to and then I have my specials. Concerts, vacations, buying something new, going to a movie, date night, going to a good restaurant, going dancing. And so those are kind of the core parts of my dopam menu, you know.
- [10:55]
Interviewee
And even when it comes to the desserts, the idea again that there are things that you, you enjoy in the moment even though you know you may pay a price later on. Too much sugar, whatever it might be. Same sort of thing with dopamine, right.
- [11:06]
Eric Tivers
And I always say, you know, this idea of like everything in moderation, including moderation, right. It's like, yeah, know the cost, you know, if I'm going to be up all night or up really late and know I'm going to impact my sleep, which is going to probably affect me for a day or two afterwards, right. I better be doing something that was worth it and not something that I'm just mindlessly on online. I want to be going to a concert or something where it's like, oh, I'm going to be feeling that and riding that wave for quite some time, otherwise it's not worth it.
- [11:35]
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
I just want to make sure I.
- [11:36]
Interviewee
Understand that people often associate dopamine with a feeling of happiness, of joy even. Was that lacking in someone with ADHD that you needed more dopamine?
- [11:48]
Eric Tivers
Our brains are under aroused in its natural state.
- [11:53]
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
That's what I'm getting.
- [11:54]
Interviewee
So that's a new term. It's more challenging to arouse your brain if you have adhd.
- [12:01]
Eric Tivers
Yes.
- [12:03]
Interviewee
I hadn't heard it put like that before.
- [12:05]
Eric Tivers
It's interesting. There's a, I think in 2012 there was this really cool study that looked at. It was A group composite image of. There were hundreds of adults with ADHD that they put under FMRI scans and had them do kind of basic, you know, cognitive boring types of tasks. And they, in the control group with people without adhd and often people with ADHD have been called lazy. And when we think about lazy is effort. So this image, compare the ADHD brain to the non ADHD brain and the rewarded ADHD brain to the non rewarded ADHD brain. And what it showed is that the ADHD brain is working profoundly finally harder, putting in more effort to do basic cognitive tasks that are boring and sort of the one, two punch, we need more sort of like that, that reward. And we're also less responsive to it. Like it doesn't, it doesn't stick as well. Right. There's this idea I've heard before about, like, you know, if you're talking with kids, if a kid's struggling in school, say, hey, if you can get your grades up to this, well, but buy you the new, you know, whatever gaming system or if you get your homework in this week, you can choose where we go for dinner. They're all going to choose a gaming system and like none of them are going to get it because that's way too long of a period of time to do it. And our brain needs frequency of reinforcement to learn.
- [13:29]
Interviewee
Was dopamenu sort of initially a strategy for your adhd? I mean, or is this something that could be, could be more widely used?
- [13:38]
Eric Tivers
Oh, it could absolutely be widely. You know, the concept of universal design.
- [13:43]
Interviewee
Not sure, tell me.
- [13:44]
Eric Tivers
So I think it can probably best explain with this. This is kind of this little short parable. It's snowing really hard and there's kids who are trying to get into the school and the maintenance crew, they're busy trying to clear off the steps so the kids can get into school. And then there's a kid in a wheelchair and he says to the maintenance guy, can you please do the ramp? And the maintenance guy says to the kid, we have all these other kids, like, you just have to wait. And then the kid says back to the maintenance guy, well, if you do the ramp, everyone can get into school, including you. Right? That's the universal design. Right. And I think that when we look at the strategies for managing adhd, it's kind of like universal design for life. It's like the people with adhd, we need to use these strategies. But these are often really great strategies for everybody.
- [14:27]
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
I love that.
- [14:28]
Interviewee
Eric, thank you for sharing that. That's really the idea that Again, in this case, everyone can walk up the ramp. The dopa menu could, could have benefits for everybody, not just those with adhd. The idea of writing it down as you did, you have your starters, your appetizers, your entrees, your desserts. How important is it to do that?
- [14:49]
Eric Tivers
I think it's real important. Otherwise, it is just kind of good intentions and anything that we're planning that has any sort of depth to it, it's sort of like if you look at a map through a straw, that's how much you can have access to if you don't write it down. Right? Write it down. You could see the whole map and be what you want to when you want to. Right. Spend that time coming up with the ideas because you don't want to figure out where you want to go eat when you're already hungry or going to the grocery store and you're already hungry. Right. It's like you want to have a plan of what you're going to be doing and when that sort of that need, you have something you can just refer to, oh, this is what I said I was going to do.
- [15:32]
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
All right, after the break, we're going to tell you how to create your very own dopa menu. We're going to do it together.
- [15:42]
Sleep Number Ad
This podcast is supported by Sleep Number There's a reason the Sleep Number Smart Bed is the number one bed for couples. It's because you can each choose what's right for you whenever you like. Firmer or softer on either side. Sleep Number does that. One side cooler and the other side warmer. Sleep Number does that too. You have to feel it to believe it. Only Sleep Number Smart Beds let you choose your ideal comfort and support your Sleep Number setting. Sleep Number Smart Beds learn how you sleep and provide personalized insights to help you sleep better. The new Sleep Number ClimateCool smart bed lets you adjust up to 15 degrees cooler on either side. It's perfect for couples who struggle with sleeping too hot, Sleep better together and now save 50% on the new Sleep Number Limited Edition Smart Bed Limited Time, exclusively at a Sleep Number store near you. See storerorsleepnumber.com for details.
- [16:37]
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- [17:13]
Interviewee
How long did it take you to put together? I mean, if someone is hearing this and they're saying, I want to make my own dopamine menu, my dopa menu.
- [17:21]
Eric Tivers
I've done it with one of my online coaching communities. We did it together about an hour.
- [17:26]
Interviewee
So it involves, I imagine, you really taking stock of your life and being really sort of diligent about figuring out what did give you that blast of dopamine. How would you quantify it in some way? How long did it last? What price did you pay to get that sort of blast of dopamine? Am I on the right track?
- [17:45]
Eric Tivers
Yeah, and it's also, it's a. It's not just like the big things that give you the blast of dopamine. It's kind of like what are the things that give you that regular sort of dopamine drip, right. The slow release, but regular release of dopamine to kind of just increase that just a little bit, you know, to help with the activation, to help with motivation, to help with learning even. I mean, that's, that's really what dopamine does.
- [18:11]
Interviewee
Do you find that your menu changes?
- [18:13]
Eric Tivers
Oh, yeah.
- [18:14]
Interviewee
What may be more beneficial may become less or even more later on in life.
- [18:20]
Eric Tivers
Yeah, I mean, it's. And it's funny too, because when I was reviewing mine the other day and I see talking to see and seeing friends, I was like, well, I'm a big introvert and I love my, like, my alone time. Like this past summer, I did two, three night runs at Fish. One was in Wisconsin, the other one was in Indiana. And when I did in Indiana, I rode my motorcycle up by myself and it was like, I loved it. Like, just having that, like, I don't have to respond to anyone. Like, I can just do what I want to do, what I want to do to me. Like, I love that. And that energizes me. Right? So it's sort of like understanding. Oh, like I really need a lot of that alone time to recharge.
- [18:57]
Interviewee
Right.
- [18:57]
Eric Tivers
Myself. So when I saw that on my menu, I was like, sometimes I like that. Not so much.
- [19:04]
Interviewee
So you're. So you got to create the menu. You've got to allow the menu to be in a little bit of a state of flux. It's got to be able to Change.
- [19:10]
Eric Tivers
I think that it's a tool just like our calendar and our to do list. It's like, just because we captured it and put it in the calendar of the to do list doesn't mean we have to do it to change our minds.
- [19:20]
Interviewee
Yeah, no, I just. I think it's interesting because I think anyone listening, myself included, listening to you, reflects on what are those things that would fall into their own starter appetizer, their own entree, their own dessert, the big things that would be on their dopa menu. And it's a really interesting exercise because it makes you sort of put a name and write down things that have actually given you that value in your life you kind of maybe instinctively know. But to actually put it down and to be able to read it and then go get it from time to time, order off the menu, I think is a really interesting exercise.
- [19:57]
Eric Tivers
And I think especially when, sometimes when we feel things in the extreme, it's almost easy, easier to develop strategies around it. It's like, because we need it, right? It's like, you know, life's hitting us over the head saying, hey, pay attention to this because something's not working for you. But when it's a little bit, like just below the threshold, it's almost easy to miss what's happening and then wonder why we feel just in this state of like, just not feeling well. Right. And, you know, whether it's feeling bored or unsatisfied or low grade depression, that's almost harder in some ways than actually proactively address because it's not hitting you over the face with it. And I think if you know your tendencies and the patterns around that, you can then say, okay, during this time of year, if you know you have a history of seasonal affective disorder, you can then kind of sprinkle little things throughout your day and your week that just add little bits of dopamine, even just like adding some spice to your food. Give me a nice dopamine hit, right? Because spicy food can actually increase dopamine.
- [21:03]
Interviewee
Yeah, I love that. I think just being intentional about this, I almost describe it as a little bit of a state of fog, but I imagine people have their own adjectives for it. But these last couple of weeks in particular, I think it's been just kids have not gone to school for a couple of days because of snow days. And it's just. Which I love having my kids around, don't get me wrong. But I'm just saying everything feels. Feels a little unsettled. It's just a Little foggy. And the idea that you could add a little spice to your food, that I could do what I did before doing this interview with you, go outside and just stick my face in the sun for a bit and breathe in nature for a while. I wouldn't have been as intentional about that in the past. I know that it feels good, but you know, you have to eat, so you order up the menu. That's the thing you have to do. You can't not eat. The idea that you need dopamine and that you should be able to order your dopamine off a menu in the way that you've sort of laid it out. I think it's a really interesting exercise, something that I'm going to do because.
- [22:04]
Eric Tivers
I think, especially when as someone with adhd, there's definitely this tendency to overvalue our now self and discount our future self. What neuropsychologists will call temporal discounting. And so so many of the strategies that I put into place are really designed to be considerate of my future self.
- [22:28]
Interviewee
And that's what the dopamine menu does for you?
- [22:30]
Eric Tivers
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
- [22:32]
Interviewee
Can you just spend a couple minutes talking us through it? Like, how would I start?
- [22:35]
Eric Tivers
Sure. So I use Canva, which is a pretty user friendly graphic design thing, but you can use paper and pens and pencils, whatever kind of speaks to you from a creation standpoint. And so I have, you know, break it up like a regular menu. Appetizers, entrees, desserts, specials. So you wanted to sort of decide like the format that you want to actually use. So I would say put as much on the menu as you, as you want to. And as you can also recognize that, you know, not all items are going to be available. You want to have it highly flexible, you want it to be easy to engage with. One of the things too, I think is really important is to have it easily accessible. Whether it's like post it on your fridge or you have it like you laminate it and put it on your desk or even like save it as the lock screen or the, your wallpaper on your computer. So you're regularly seeing this, but make it your own. Like, I've seen so many different sort of variations of this. I've seen where people added like spice levels. As you know, you see that on many times as you know, and that could mean whatever you want it to mean. That could mean like how easy or challenging it might be, it could be how rewarding it is, so writing it.
- [23:47]
Interviewee
Down, but then also what the objective value is or how rewarding it might be.
- [23:54]
Eric Tivers
Yeah, yeah. So let's say I'm sure there's lots of people listening who. They have that guitar at home that's just collecting dust, and they regularly think about, I wish I was playing more guitar. Okay, well, what if you put the guitar right next to the couch where you normally just turn the TV on? Right. What if you actually put the remotes of the TV where the guitar usually is? So you actually put an effort to go turn the TV on, and it's actually just easier to play the guitar, things like that. So set up your space if you want to do more journaling, because that's good. You find dopamine in that. Make sure your journal is easily accessible. You have pens that you like to use. Right. Make it visually appealing, you know, and even putting in reminders in your calendar, say, hey, have you looked at your dopamine in a while? It's a very common thing with ADHD is like, we have these tools or strategies, and then we forget to use the tools or strategies. Right? So I was. I'll put in questions in my calendar all the time and says, hey, are you still doing this?
- [24:51]
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
Right, right, right.
- [24:52]
Eric Tivers
Because it's. I've learned that, oh, I'll discover this strategy. It's working great. And then I'm like, I have no idea when I stopped doing that. Right. So it's like, I have these sort of safety nets that I create for my future self.
- [25:04]
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
On the podcast, you share a lot.
- [25:06]
Interviewee
Of stories of people who overcome challenges. Are there particular ones that really jump out at you and that may offer some insights for people? Especially right now during a cold, dark season.
- [25:22]
Eric Tivers
It's like, I have 500 and I think 40 some episodes. I was like, I saw that you've.
- [25:27]
Interviewee
Been doing this for a while.
- [25:29]
Eric Tivers
You know, it's funny. When I first started the podcast, it was like, I didn't have a grand master plan for this podcast. I didn't think that I was going to actually start a whole side business, which became my coaching business because of it. And so when I started my podcast, it was just. It was a solo show. I was just sharing sort of tips and strategies. And then I got an email from a listener who sent this really, really long email saying that they were basically, like, homeless in their car, struggling with alcoholism, and they stumbled upon my podcast somehow and forgot that they were diagnosed with ADHD when they were younger. And as a result of, like, re remembering that they had adhd, they chucked themselves into rehab and, like, basically changed their life as a result. So I got this email and it was just like, oh, this is, this is, this is why I'm doing what I'm doing. And I'm like, oh, it would be really good to have like a check in with this person. And so I email him like, hey, can we get a check in just to like put this on the tail end of the episode. This turned that into an hour long conversation which turned into my first interview. And after that I was like, oh, interviews are absolutely the way to go. Like, I just realized I was struggling with every week to plan an outline of what I was going to talk about. And I'm like, oh, I'm way better at being responsive versus, like planning. And I think I'm a good interviewer and I'm a curious person. So that was one that was really impactful for me, I gotta say.
- [27:00]
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
That was super interesting. And I've already created my own dopamine menu, my dopa menu. I hope you'll do the same. That was, of course, Eric Tivers. He's host of ADHD Rewired and creator of the Dopa menu. Chasing Life is a production of CNN Audio. Our podcast is produced by Aaron Mathewson, Jennifer Lai, Grace Walker, Lori Gallaretta, Jesse Remedios, Sofia Sanchez and Kara Daring. Andrea Cain is our medical writer. Our senior producer is Dan Bloom. Amanda Seeley is our showrunner, Dan Dezulla is our technical director. And the executive producer of CNN Audio is Steve Lichti with support from Jamis.
- [27:44]
Interviewee
Andrest, John Dionora, Hailey Thomas, Alex Manasseri.
- [27:49]
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
Robert Mathers, Lainey Steinhardt, Nicole Pesaru and Lisa Namorow. Special thanks to Ben Tinker and Nadia Kanang of CNN Health and Katie Hinman.
- [28:04]
Sleep Number Ad
There's a reason the Sleep number Smart Bed is the number one best bed for couples. It's because you can each choose what's right for you whenever you like. Firmer or softer on either side. Sleep number does that. One side cooler and the other side warmer. Sleep number does that too. You have to feel it to believe it. Sleep better together. And now save 50% on the new Sleep Number Limited edition Smart bed limited time. Exclusively at a Sleep Number store near you. See store or sleepnumber.com for details.