Living with Incurable Cancer

Summary

Podcast Summary – Chasing Life (CNN Podcasts)

Episode: “Living with Incurable Cancer”

Host: Dr. Sanjay Gupta
Guest: Jonathan Gluck, author of An Exercise in Uncertainty
Release Date: October 31, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this deeply personal and profound conversation, Dr. Sanjay Gupta sits down with Jonathan Gluck—a writer and long-term survivor of incurable cancer—to explore what it’s like to live in the ambiguous “in-between” of illness and health. Jonathan introduces the term “cancer zombies” for people living with chronic cancer that is not curable but treatable—an existence defined by perpetual uncertainty. Through discussing his 20+ year journey with multiple myeloma, Gluck sheds light on the psychological, emotional, and social challenges of “living with, not dying from” incurable cancer, illustrating lessons on empathy, risk, the unpredictability of life, and the power of simply being present.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Living in the Liminal Space: “Cancer Zombies”

• Introduction of the “cancer zombie” concept:
  • Gluck coins “cancer zombies” to describe those who aren't fully sick or completely well; they are in a permanent state of “half-sick, half-well.”
    • “Zombies are half dead and half alive. Cancer zombies are half sick and half well, and doomed to be that way forever, the same way zombies are doomed to be half alive forever.” (Jonathan Gluck, 01:06)
  • Dr. Gupta expresses some discomfort with the term, but acknowledges its resonance in describing this “in-between” state many patients now occupy thanks to medical advances.
    • “Candidly, I don’t know how I feel about this term cancer zombie…but his journey has a lot to teach us.” (Dr. Gupta, 01:17)

Diagnosis Story: The Power and Pain of Uncertainty

• Initial symptoms and journey to diagnosis:
  • Started as hip pain after a slip in 2002—diagnosed as orthopedic at first; ignored until pain persisted for a year.
  • The diagnosis process was long, complicated, and shocking, with denial as the initial emotional response.
    • “It was just inconceivable to me at the time…The idea that it was something more serious than a minor orthopedic problem literally never crossed my mind.” (Gluck, 05:29)
    • “No, no, no, no, no. I think I said it five times, maybe six. This can't be happening. I'm 38 years old. I have a baby girl, just moved into a new apartment. I don't feel sick. Otherwise, it's impossible. And unfortunately, it was possible.” (Gluck, 08:06)
• Delays and complexity:
  • Took over a year and several doctors to diagnose multiple myeloma, highlighting complexity and rarity.
  • Prognosis at diagnosis: “A year and a half…maybe three to five years. But there are a ton of new drugs coming.” (Gluck, 10:07)

Hope, Honesty & Communication in Medicine

• What matters in breaking bad news:
  • Both the orthopedist and oncologist displayed compassion and warmth, which made a huge positive difference.
    • “To me that’s one of the magic words—compassion. The first doctor, he delivered the news with a sort of human compassion…he cared and that he was hurt and honestly probably a little scared himself.” (Gluck, 12:15)
    • “You just want to feel that people care and are sympathetic and are sorry. I’ve said the wrong thing to people…but I think just a basic compassion goes a long way.” (Gluck, 13:51)
• Advice for friends and loved ones:
  • Don’t jump to solutions or comparisons; instead, express simple sympathy.
    • “My colleague said, ‘I’m really sorry, that sucks.’ And I thought that’s just about perfect.” (Gluck, 13:51)

Life on the Frontier of Treatment

• Long-term management and medical advances:
  • Through ongoing cycles of remission and relapse, Gluck has benefited nearly every time from a new treatment arriving “just in time.”
  • Describes most recent, cutting-edge therapy: CAR-T therapy, which placed him in remission.
    • “Some of these new treatments came along within months or maybe a year, a year and a half of when I needed them...” (Gluck, 15:37)
    • “Just two weeks ago now…I had my most recent set of scans and blood tests…it was by far the best checkup I’ve had in many, many years…we were almost dumbfounded with how good my numbers are.” (Gluck, 16:35)

Redefining the “Cancer Story”

• Beyond the binary:
  • Most cancer stories, Gluck notes, have two endings: survival or death after a fight. He proposes a third story: living long-term in uncertainty with a chronic, incurable illness.
    • “There’s a whole category of people now…who are in this in-between world…neither sick or well, but they’re living with a permanent condition for longer than any of us ever did before when we received this kind of diagnosis. And I came up with this term that I call us cancer zombies.” (Gluck, 18:46)

The Role of Uncertainty – and Acceptance

• Uncertainty as a universal experience:
  • While living with an incurable illness magnifies it, uncertainty is the backdrop of everyone’s life.
    • “That’s the connective tissue to the title of the book: you’re living in a state of permanent uncertainty, you know, with a sword hanging over your head…” (Gluck, 21:18)
  • Tools to cope with uncertainty:
    • Distraction; getting into a flow state (fly fishing, yoga, etc.) are practical strategies; most importantly, realizing that struggling with uncertainty is human and normal.
    • “We’re all terrible at dealing with uncertainty as humans…knowing how hard it is is the most important thing. Then you don’t feel so alone.” (Gluck, 24:06)

How Illness Changes Attitude Toward Risk and Life

• Becoming less risk-averse:
  • “If I’ve survived what I’ve now survived, I can probably handle more than I thought I could.” (Gluck, 23:38)
  • Puts urgency on life, and makes “carpe diem” more than a cliché.
• Advice for his younger self:
  • Go after what you want—life is short; control what you can, accept what you can’t; realize you can handle more than you think; cultivate optimism for day-to-day quality of life, rather than as magical thinking about outcomes.
    • “Don’t be afraid to do whatever you want to do. Do it now. Life is short. Take advantage of your opportunities when you have them.” (Gluck, 27:35)
    • “I think I’d tell myself…you can handle more than you think you can. When I was first diagnosed that day…I thought to myself, there’s no way I’m going to be able to do this. And here I am.” (Gluck, 29:20)
    • “Whether it has an impact on my outcome…I don’t know the answer to that. But I do know that if I try and have a positive attitude, my day-to-day existence is that much better.” (Gluck, 30:40)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the “third” cancer story:
  • “There is a third story to tell…a whole category of people now who are in this in-between world where they’re neither sick or well, but they’re living with a permanent condition for longer than any of us ever did before.” (Gluck, 18:46)
• On compassion:
  • “Just a basic compassion goes a long way.” (Gluck, 13:51)
• On uncertainty as universal:
  • “Life is uncertain. What do they say the only certain things are? Death and taxes. Everything else has some degree of uncertainty to it.” (Gupta, 21:03)
• On advice to his younger self:
  • “Control the things you can control and try and accept the things you can’t…I’m not sure if that’s the secret to life, but in my experience, it’s maybe as close as I’ve come to discovering it.” (Gluck, 28:25)
• On acceptance and optimism:
  • “Really bad things happen and that sucks…But really good things can happen too.” (Gluck, 30:55)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:32 – 01:17: Jonathan Gluck introduces the “cancer zombies” concept
• 03:23 – 06:44: Jonathan’s initial hip pain, denial, and the journey to diagnosis
• 10:07: Prognosis and hope from his oncologist
• 12:15 – 14:12: The role of compassion in breaking bad news
• 16:35 – 18:21: Experience with new treatments and a positive remission update
• 18:46: The ‘third story’ for cancer patients and “cancer zombies”
• 21:18 – 24:06: Coping with permanent uncertainty
• 27:35 – 30:55: Advice for his younger self, lessons learned from living with chronic disease

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Tone & Takeaways

The episode’s tone is candid, reflective, and deeply empathetic. Both Gupta and Gluck model vulnerability—sharing fears, doubts, and emotional truths, but also hope and humor. Their discussion provides meaningful lessons for anyone living with uncertainty—medical or otherwise—and offers guidance for both those who are facing illness and the loved ones who want to support them. The “cancer zombie” notion is reframed as neither melodramatic nor grim, but as a way to feel seen in a life that is neither all sickness nor all health.

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For Further Reflection

• Gluck’s An Exercise in Uncertainty is recommended for those living with chronic illness, their families, and anyone grappling with the unpredictable turns of life.
• Dr. Gupta’s interview style, blending medical expertise with personal empathy, models how clinicians can walk the line between hope and honesty.

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For those who haven’t listened, this episode provides an honest, insightful look at the real-life complexities—emotional, practical, and existential—of living with incurable cancer, in a world where hope endures but certainty is never guaranteed.

Transcript

[Dr. Sanjay Gupta]

Welcome to chasing life. You know, this is my favorite time of year. I just celebrated a birthday. It is fall. And of course, it is time for Halloween. A time for trick or treating and haunted houses and all sorts of ghouls and witches and of course, zombies. In today's episode, however, I'm going to be talking about a different kind of zombie. We're not talking about the brain eating variety, but maybe something just as haunting. Cancer zombies.

[Jonathan Gluck]

There's a whole category of people now who are in this in between world where they're neither sick or well, but they're living with a permanent condition for longer than any of us ever did before. And I came up with this term that I call us cancer zombies.

[Dr. Sanjay Gupta]

That is Jonathan Gluck. He's a writer and the author of a new book called An Exercise in Uncertainty, A Memoir of Illness and Hope. It's about his odyssey with incurable cancer that has been going on for more than 20 years.

[Jonathan Gluck]

So, you know, zombie. Zombies are half dead and half alive. Cancer zombies are half sick and half well, and doomed to be that way forever. The same way zombies are doomed to be half alive forever.

[Dr. Sanjay Gupta]

Full disclosure. Jonathan's nephew Ben is my executive producer. But I'm not doing this interview today because of a personal connection, but rather because I read the book and I think his journey has a lot to teach us. And candidly, I don't know how I feel about this term cancer zombie. It's his description of a growing group of patients, himself included, who are living with chronic cancer for years, even decades. Oftentimes, these are patients who are told they have no other options and they don't have that long to live. But here they are. And today we're going to hear his story about living in a liminal space defined by uncertainty. I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, and this is Chasing Life.

[Jonathan Gluck]

Hey, Sanjay. How are you?

[Dr. Sanjay Gupta]

I'm doing well.

[Interviewer (possibly Dr. Sanjay Gupta or a co-host)]

How you doing?

[Jonathan Gluck]

I'm well, thanks. It's nice to meet you finally. I've heard so many wonderful things about you over the years from Ben and also just wanted to say thank you again for providing the blurb for the book.

[Interviewer (possibly Dr. Sanjay Gupta or a co-host)]

Oh, it's my pleasure. It's a great book. Congratulations. And I have to tell you, I feel a bit like a member of the Gluck family.

[Jonathan Gluck]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly Dr. Sanjay Gupta or a co-host)]

Your nephew is my executive producer.

[Jonathan Gluck]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly Dr. Sanjay Gupta or a co-host)]

And obviously your sister. I know. Well, I've met her many times, so I'm like a member of the family. By the way, I have the book right here. I obviously read it. I wrote a blurb for it. I loved it. Congratulations.

[Jonathan Gluck]

Thank you so much.

[Interviewer (possibly Dr. Sanjay Gupta or a co-host)]

I mean, you're a writer, so, you know, it's not that surprising that you decided to write a book about this. And yet I imagine at the same time, I mean, this is such a personal book. It's so candid, obviously, about your life and your health and, and your view of the world, frankly, and how you look at things. What did you want to convey to readers with this book?

[Jonathan Gluck]

Yeah, I mean, you know, I was diagnosed some 21 plus years ago now and I had read my share of other cancer memoirs, some of which are fantastic and others of which maybe weren't what I was hoping to do someday. So I had kind of a sense of the landscape and one of the things I felt I hadn't seen a lot of was somebody talking about the non medical aspects. The way that cancer affects really every part of your life. Not just your physical health, but your mental health, your relationships, your marriage, your career, your finances, your kids. And I really wanted to share that perspective with others because over the years, when I talked about those aspects of my experience, as opposed to just the tips TikTok of my medical journey, those were the things that people were more interested in. So I always had it in mind that if I wrote a book about it someday, I'd really want to focus on those factors so that other people can see that they're not alone in going through this kind of thing and that it's harder than people think in those respects. Not just the medical.

[Interviewer (possibly Dr. Sanjay Gupta or a co-host)]

Yeah, you know, it's interesting because I think it is fair to say that people think it's hard. Right? I mean, if they hear your story and they think 38 years old, just started a new family, you have this hip pain, you know, like most people, you think, hey, look, it's hip pain. I slipped, you know, I probably injured my hip. And then it turns into this whole other thing. And I think for a lot of people there is a shock to that. And yet at the same time, I have found, just as a physician, talk to my patients, we often go into sort of procedural mode, like, what am I going to do now? Okay. Now that the shock part of it's worn off. But I do want to just sit on this time period for a second when you, even before you get the diagnosis, you have hip pain, that doesn't go away. And just given that the book is all about uncertainty, like, I just want to capture your thinking at these various times. So before you get a diagnosis, when you have hip pain, how certain or Uncertain, are you, that this is something more? What are you thinking?

[Jonathan Gluck]

Yeah. So the story is I walked out of my office one night in November of 2002, and I slipped on the ice, and I didn't even fall. Wasn't a big slip. I just sort of twisted my hip a bit. And I woke up the next morning, and it hurt quite a lot. And I thought to myself, you know, at that time, I was 37, and I thought, oh, maybe I'm just getting older. You know, it's that, you know, when these things start to happen, you pull a muscle more easily or you tweak a ligament or something, and I just figured it would go away. And a few weeks went by, and it didn't go away. And so I saw my orthopedist, and he took an X ray, didn't see anything, gave me a physical therapy prescription, and sent me on my way. My wife and I bought our first apartment. I got a new job, a very demanding job. We had our daughter that following spring in April, our first child, my daughter, A.J. and so, you know, my hips still hurt, but I was not really taking it seriously. I had too many other things to do, too many other things on my mind. And as I say, I had no history of cancer. I had no risk factors particularly. And frankly, one of the interesting things about this is the idea that it was something more serious than a minor orthopedic problem literally never crossed my mind. It was just inconceivable to me at the time, even though it was a.

[Interviewer (possibly Dr. Sanjay Gupta or a co-host)]

Year or so of persistent pain.

[Jonathan Gluck]

So then you put your finger on the magic word. The year anniversary came up, so to speak. And I noticed, gosh, this was last November. Now It's November of 2003, and my hip still hurts. And that's when a little bit of an alarm went off of like, okay, that's not right. Something's wrong here. It's not going to resolve itself. I've got to go back to the doctor. That's when I went back to my orthopedist. This time, he took an MRI, and his office contacted me, and they said, Dr. Weno would like you to come in to talk about your test results. And I thought to myself, how amazing, you know, in this day and age, a doctor, no offense, you know, was kind enough to call me in to talk face to face about my results instead of sending me something through an app or. Well, there weren't apps at that time, but through email or phone call. And so I went in sort of happily thinking, like, okay, Worst case here, we're going to need some surgery or something. He's going to get me back on track. When I got to the office, that's when I knew immediately something was wrong. The receptionist had a very grave air about her when she heard me say who I was to check in. And she turned over her shoulder and looked at the physician's assistant to immediately took me into the examination room. No, waiting room. And I thought, something's up here. And then my doctor came in moments later and sat down and said, I need to tell you there's a lesion on your hip. And again, I was so not expecting this. I literally said, a lesion? Is that a tumor? I didn't know the difference. And he said, essentially, yes. And I said, does that mean I have cancer? And he said, yes. And my first reaction, and you're absolutely right about this sort of procedural mode, but my first reaction, before I even got there, was just pure denial. I mean, the first words were literally, no, no, no, no, no. I think I said it five times, maybe six. This can't be happening. I'm 38 years old. I have a baby girl, just moved into a new apartment. I don't feel sick. Otherwise, it's impossible. And unfortunately, it was possible.

[Interviewer (possibly Dr. Sanjay Gupta or a co-host)]

I'm sorry you went through that. You know, I just. Human to human, you know, I think we go through our lives hoping for the best, preparing for the worst. I think we're around the same age, and I sort of try and transport myself back to that time in my life right when I had my kids. And it's tough. It's tough. And I think for anybody listening out here, you know, part of the reason I wanted to have people listen to you is because a lot of people go through this, if not themselves, then with their loved ones. And I think it's so instructive the way that you sort of approach things, not just in terms of the medical care, but in terms of your. How you psychologically thought about things. Ultimately, you get a diagnosis, and the diagnosis is multiple myeloma. What do they tell you about the prognosis with that?

[Jonathan Gluck]

One of the interesting things I learned and had no idea about, you know, why would I have prior to this diagnosis was it took a long time to get a diagnosis. You know, many cancers are extremely complex. There are some subtypes and subtypes of the subtypes. As, you know, many symptoms and even lab results overlap. So it took them several months. It's a very complicated array of tests to reach a definitive diagnosis. That's when they decided I had multiple myeloma. And only then was I directed to the appropriate specialist. A hematologic oncologist.

[Interviewer (possibly Dr. Sanjay Gupta or a co-host)]

Right.

[Jonathan Gluck]

To answer your question more directly, when I saw him, he's a wonderful guy, became one of my physicians for many years, and he was frank. And when we got around to me asking him directly about a prognosis, he said, you know, you might have as little as a year and a half to live, but I would expect in your case, because you're young and otherwise healthy, you do better than that. So maybe we're looking at three to five years, which was, you know, not a very happy thing to hear. At the same time, he said, but I really want you to know that there are a ton of new drugs in the pipeline for what you have for multiple myeloma. And even though I know you're probably feeling unlucky to have this at all, I'm telling you, you're actually coming into this at a time when, luckily, there are a lot of new treatments on the horizon. And frankly, between you and me, I just thought he was sort of blowing smoke to make me feel a little better, give me a little hope. But that's exactly what turned out to be the case, is there have been an astonishing number of developments, not just in the treatment of many different cancers, but in particular for multiple myeloma, that have very literally kept me alive.

[Interviewer (possibly Dr. Sanjay Gupta or a co-host)]

You're a writer. You're a wordsmith. I am curious in some ways, just as a doctor, to get your thoughts and maybe even your advice on this, because I think, you know, how you deliver news is one of those things in medicine that we're never really taught. The way that we learn is by watching our professors do it and sort of emulating people that we think do it well, I think it's reflective of our personalities. Like I wrote in the COVID of your book, after thinking about this for a long time, I said, this is an exercise in compassion. There is an inflection point between hope and honesty. Sounds like your doctor, this doctor you're talking about, the hematological oncologist, wanted to be hopeful and wanted to be honest as well. But finding that point, Jonathan, is hard. How did he do? And I don't know. I'm not asking you to malign him, but how do you think people should find that point of inflection?

[Jonathan Gluck]

Yeah, it's interesting because when I told you my story of how I was diagnosed, when you said, you know, you were sorry about the whole thing that right there, and the fact that you did blurb the book, you know, an exercising compassion. To me that's one of the magic words is compassion. And the first doctor I saw, the orthopedist, he delivered the news with a sort of human compassion and an element of I could feel his compassion, I could feel that he cared and that he was hurt and honestly probably a little scared himself. And even though I've been told by other physicians that you're sort of sometimes depending trained to not display that upset or that concern or that human side of fear or compassion, I'm going to say I disagree. I think that that's exactly what makes the difference. And the same with my oncologist, the first oncologist I just spoke about, he is a very warm and friendly guy and I could feel his caring. And the same is true of non physicians. I get asked a lot if I know somebody who has a diagnosis like yours, what should I say, what should I do? And I can tell you what you shouldn't do is offer solutions. Especially if you're not a particularly well informed and you're not a physician or otherwise well informed, that doesn't tend to be helpful and telling a story about somebody you know or yourself who's gone through something similar in that moment. You know, I understand people mean well and I get there's some value in that, but that to me isn't the most helpful. And what I always think about is one of my colleagues a week or two after my diagnosis and I went back to work and people knew what was going on. He said to me, I'm really sorry, that sucks. And I thought that's just about perfect. It's just that simple. You just want to feel that people care and are sympathetic and are sorry. I've said the wrong thing to people. Even after my diagnosis, I've said the wrong thing. But I think just a basic compassion goes a long way.

[Dr. Sanjay Gupta]

We'll have much more after a short break.

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[Podcast Host Michael Ian Black]

It's Halloween night. The costumes are cute, the candy haul alarming And I'm listening to chasing life. Dr. Sanjay Gupta's tips on health and longevity. Just what I need to feel less like a walking Twizzler.

[Interviewer (possibly Dr. Sanjay Gupta or a co-host)]

Now, as you hear this, you may be surprised to learn that I indulge in a little candy on Halloween.

[Podcast Host Michael Ian Black]

Want something more fun sized? Get quick headlines from cnn. Five good things. It's nice to have something sweet that isn't coated in chocolate.

[Jonathan Gluck]

Hey there. How we doing?

[Podcast Host Michael Ian Black]

It's a good day to look at.

[Jonathan Gluck]

The bright side, if you ask me.

[Podcast Host Michael Ian Black]

This Halloween. Have a little brain candy. Follow CNN wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dr. Sanjay Gupta]

Welcome back to Chasing Life and my interview with author Jonathan Gluck and his journey with incurable cancer.

[Interviewer (possibly Dr. Sanjay Gupta or a co-host)]

Before we continue, I think the audience is going to want to know, how are you now? How are you doing?

[Jonathan Gluck]

Thanks for asking. Yeah, I'm well at the moment. The basic story of my 20 plus year experience here has been that multiple myeloma is not curable, but it has proven, in my case anyway, to be treatable. Not curable, but treatable. And that, as I mentioned earlier, many new treatments have come along since I got sick. In fact, it's been uncanny. I didn't even realize this myself until I had to put the timeline together in a precise way for the book. But some of these new treatments came along within months or maybe a year, a year and a half of when I needed them. So basically my pattern has been I go in and out of remission, I get sick, they treat me with one thing, I go into remission, sometimes for a very long time, sometimes for a short time, sometimes a full remission, sometimes a partial remission, I get sick again, they treat me with something else and so on. And that's happened. I've lost count, you know, more than 10 or 12 times those cycles.

[Interviewer (possibly Dr. Sanjay Gupta or a co-host)]

And are you quite sick at these times before you get a new treatment?

[Jonathan Gluck]

It's varied all across the board. One of the reasons I'm here is because I'm monitored so closely. I'm scanned and go through a battery blood test every three to six months, depending on how actively sick I am. And there have been times where they've caught something so early that I'm not terribly sick. And there are other times where things have advanced to a point where I've been quite sick. So that pattern has gone on and went on until the summer of 2023 when, to your point, I came out of remission, I was quite sick again and in need of, by far the biggest treatment I've had to date, which is this mind blowingly futuristic treatment called CAR T therapy. And we can talk about that more if you'd like. But I had that treatment two summers ago, which was very arduous, very risky, but I came through it successfully and have been knock wood on a full. In a full remission ever since. In fact, just two weeks ago now, I had my most recent set of scans and blood tests. And honestly, you know, you talk about getting emotional about this. Now I'm going to get emotional a good way because my wife and I were at my current oncologist's office and it was by far the best checkup I've had in many, many years. And we were astonished. Like, we didn't go expecting to know that we didn't know what was going to happen at that appointment. Exactly. But it's not a stretch to say it was sort of miraculous. You know, we were almost dumbfounded with how good my numbers are and how good my scans look and the chances are I will come back. So I'm not getting out ahead of myself. But one of the things you learn and you talk about this being a book about more than just cancer, there are definitely life lessons you learn from this kind of experience. And one of them is just take everything one day at a time, as they say, you know, and that was a really good day. And who knows what tomorrow will bring. But, you know, right now we're feeling pretty good.

[Interviewer (possibly Dr. Sanjay Gupta or a co-host)]

Hooray.

[Jonathan Gluck]

Thank you.

[Interviewer (possibly Dr. Sanjay Gupta or a co-host)]

You write in the book, I think that's very interesting, that most cancer stories sort of take on two forms. And the form is he or she fought valiantly and they lived, or he or she fought valiantly and they died. But there is a third story to tell. And I'm curious, first of all, just that line, if you can reflect on that. But also the third story, what is it? How do you define it?

[Jonathan Gluck]

Yeah. And this is one of the things, when you asked early on, you know, why I wanted to write this book, this is another reason I wanted to write the book, is that my experience is different in some ways, not from everybody's, but it's relatively unusual. And. And most people have one of two outcomes. They're either unfortunately not able to beat this disease and it takes their life, or they're cured. And that's how most of us think is in that kind of black and white, either or way. Again, that's sort of just how humans are wired, and that's how we think about cancer typically, I think, because of all these breakthroughs in cancer treatment. And the same with some other chronic illness, serious chronic illnesses. There's a whole category of people now who are in this in between world where they're neither sick or well, but they're living with a permanent condition for longer than any of us ever did before when we received this kind of diagnosis. And I came up with this term that I call us cancer zombies. So zombie zombies are half dead and half alive. We know from many movies and television shows cancer zombies are half sick and half well and doomed to be that way forever. The same way zombies are doomed to be half alive forever. So there's this new category of people that honestly is unique in human history. And that's another reason I wanted to write this book, is to help people who aren't in this category understand who we are and what life is like for us. And those people who are in this category, to sort of recognize them and say, you know, hey, we're this strange group of people and this is what our lives are. This is what my experience of this is like. And, you know, I've been lucky enough to hear from quite a few people that, you know, they. They appreciate that and relate to the fact that I'm speaking up about or speaking out for this group of people in a way that makes them feel seen and heard, as the expression goes, and that they can relate to.

[Interviewer (possibly Dr. Sanjay Gupta or a co-host)]

You sort of keep with that theme. And you alluded to this in your own book, which, by the way, everyone should read this book. I really, I love the book. It's about your journey. But I think it's actually about a lot more than that, about how we just think about uncertainty in our lives overall. And as I think you wrote, at some point there was a lot of uncertainty for you around this cancer diagnosis, but life is uncertain. What do they say the only certain things are? Death and taxes. Right. Everything else has some degree of uncertainty to it. Is that the connective tissue then, that this particular point you're making? Is that. Is that the connective tissue to the title of the book?

[Jonathan Gluck]

It is, yeah. That you're living in a state of permanent uncertainty, you know, with a sword hanging over your head is another of the analogies I use, is that there's this uneasy sense, even at good times, even at times like now when I'm in a full remission and just got a good checkup, I know this disease is coming back. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. And that is a very strange and difficult thing to live with. As you said earlier, we all Face uncertainty. And this is where, again, I think the book is applicable to everybody. It doesn't matter if it's medical uncertainty or economic uncertainty or your job or, you know, whatever it may be. And living with that uncertainty is something, whether we're conscious of it or not, we're all doing all the time. When you have a diagnosis like this and that uncertainty is put very directly right in front of you all the time, sometimes with the gravest of, you know, in the gravest of ways, you're constantly conscious of how uncertain life can be and you need to learn how to cope with it. Maybe in a way even more so than most people do.

[Interviewer (possibly Dr. Sanjay Gupta or a co-host)]

There were so many fascinating things about the book, but this point that you're making, I think was one of the. One of the most fascinating because look, I drove to work today. I could have been in a wreck. I could have been killed. And that is something that happens. My middle daughter's on a plane right now. She's flying to see me. My point being, Jonathan, is that there is a lot of uncertainty. And yet for most of us, as we live our lives, we may not even think about it, let alone be paralyzed by it. And then you have a diagnosis like this and all of a sudden it becomes sort of the predominant force, as you're saying in your book, it brings it to the forefront. And I got to think about this cancer zombie term, by the way, I read that. I like it and I really appreciate the fact that other people take something away from it. I still process that term a little bit because it is such a novel sort of term for me. But just to keep with that theme, though, now that you sort of consider yourself a cancer zombie, do you evaluate risk in other parts of your life differently as well? Are you more careful?

[Jonathan Gluck]

I think I. I think if anything, it's made me less risk averse because of a couple of things. One, the very common experience that people who have life and death experience, brush with death have, whether that is a car wreck or an illness or anything else, I have a much greater appreciation for how short life is. And so if I want to do something, whether that's something small, like call a friend or text a friend or something big like go on a trip to Alaska or something, I think to myself a, I've got to do this right away because life is short and balanced. If I've survived what I've now survived, I can probably handle more than I thought I could prior to this. You know, I'm not as afraid of something going wrong in my life as I used to be, because I've already stared down some pretty ugly stuff and managed to still be here. So I'm probably less risk averse. I'd say the thing that's maybe more interesting isn't necessarily how I evaluate risk, but how I cope with uncertainty. And I did a lot of research about this for the book, spoke to a woman who's a sociologist at the University of California, Riverside, and she has made it her life's work to study this very subject of how people cope with uncertainty. And I learned a lot from her, just quickly, a couple things. One, we're all terrible at dealing with uncertainty as humans. It's just not something we're wired for very successfully. And so I asked her naturally, like, well, what should people do? And she'd studied that also. And she said, you know, simply distracting yourself can be good. We all know that. She said the best thing is sort of do something that gets you into a flow state or the zone, as we say. For me, that's fly fishing. For other people it could be yoga, baking, knitting, doesn't matter. Something that's deeply absorbing and sort of pushes all the other thoughts out of your mind because it's so engrossing your brain doesn't even have the space to process your fears and your worries and your anxieties. And then I said to her, well, what do you do? You're the expert. And she said, to tell you the truth, I'm terrible at it. I said, well, that's not very encouraging. And she said, well, what I like to say to people is knowing how hard it is is the most important thing. Because again, then you don't feel so alone. You don't feel like I'm doing something wrong because I'm so scared or I'm so anxious. And that thought has helped me a ton over the years. When I'm feeling very anxious or very afraid or very uncertain about anything, I remind myself that everybody feels this and it's natural to be anxious or afraid or uncertain as human, and that it'll pass. And yes, I use some of the other tricks and they help. But the best thing I've learned is that advice that it's okay, it's okay to feel this way. It's going to pass this term.

[Interviewer (possibly Dr. Sanjay Gupta or a co-host)]

Again, Cancer, zombie, which I'm still. I've thought about this a lot since I read your book. I'm curious, how big a population do you think this is now? Because there's all these new cutting edge treatments we've made all these strides in oncological care. It's a growing population, I would imagine. But how big do you think it is?

[Jonathan Gluck]

Yeah, I think you're talking about easily hundreds of thousands of people, maybe millions worldwide, because you're talking about any number of different cancers that are becoming more and more treatable. You're talking about other chronic illnesses that are becoming more treatable. And so there aren't statistics on the matter. You know, I'm not sure anyone besides me has even really thought of it exactly this way to count, but I think just, you know, extrapolating from the number of people who have these illnesses and adding in the number of people who are and these new treatments that are keeping people alive longer and longer, it's certainly a growing number. And I think, as I say, my best guess would be somewhere in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions.

[Interviewer (possibly Dr. Sanjay Gupta or a co-host)]

If you had a chance now, some roughly 24 years later in your state of life now, to give your younger self some advice based on everything you've learned and obviously the deep dive you did in writing the book, which causes you to be self reflective in a way that maybe you had been, but not to this degree. What kind of advice would you give your younger self?

[Jonathan Gluck]

Yeah, I'd say the first couple of things that come to mind touch on things we've talked about a little bit. One is don't be afraid to do whatever you want to do. Do it now. Life is short. Take advantage of your opportunities when you have them. There's the serenity prayer people talk about when they're in recovery from drug or alcohol addiction. Control the things you can, can control and try and accept the things you can't. I'd say, you know, I think I wrote in the book words to the effect of, you know, I'm not sure if that's the secret to life, but in my experience, it's maybe as close as I've come to discovering it. And in my case, what that means is, you know, I have worked very hard and done everything in my, to my, the best of my ability to stay well, you know, and follow my doctor's advice and go to my checkups. And I also try and have tried anyway to get better at accepting the things I can't control that when I do get bad news or, you know, something else goes wrong in my life, for that matter, not trying to grab every problem by the throat and shake it to death, you know, that, you know, sometimes it's better just to accept that this is happening to me and, you know, hopefully the best will happen. And if it doesn't, you know, there's only so much I can do. And then maybe last but not least, you know, I think I'd tell myself, I guess you can handle more than you think you can. When I was first diagnosed that day I described to you there was no way I thought I could handle this. Your mind starts to race, of course, to all the pain and suffering you might experience going through a serious illness like this, the side effects of chemotherapy, the images that pop into your head that we've seen in movies and television shows and read about in books about how difficult this can be. You know, I thought to myself, there's no way I'm going to be able to do this. And here I am and I've managed to do it. And then I guess I said last but not least, but one more thing comes to mind, which is I want to be careful here because a lot of people say, well, it's so important to have a positive attitude when you are facing something like this. I agree it's important to have a positive attitude, but maybe not for the reasons people say all the time. Sometimes there's an implication of it's on you to, you know, that, that if you're negative, you're going to have a bad, that's going to have a bad effect on your own outcome. I think that's an unfair burden to place on people who are sick. On the other hand, I do think I try and be optimistic and positive in my life because it just makes my day to day life better. You know, whether it has an impact on my outcome or not is a different subject. I don't know the answer to that. But I do know that if I try and have a positive attitude, my day to day existence is that much better to the extent that I can, you know. So I guess what I would tell my younger self is, you know, yeah, really bad things happen and that sucks, you know, but really good things can happen too. And as much as I've had to face all of the difficulties I've had to face with my illness, and they've been considerable and reached across many aspects of my life, here I am, I've got two great kids, I'm still married to my wife, I've got a good job, I live in New York City, which is a place I love and find exciting and wonderful and it's got a nice family and I still fish and these other things. A lot of good things can happen to you too. So I don't think you can either look at life as strictly half empty glass half empty, or strictly half full. But I don't think you want to look at it necessarily as half empty all the time either.

[Interviewer (possibly Dr. Sanjay Gupta or a co-host)]

Well, Jonathan, I'm just delighted to be able to speak to you like this. And, you know, I really did enjoy the book. I read it almost entirely in one sitting and, you know, just this idea again, of uncertainty. There's this quote, and it basically is somebody who's saying that there is this false confidence spread from the ignorance that we live in an uncertain world and that people want to see black and white where they should rightly see gray. And we humans just aren't always comfortable with that. But I think your book, I think, reminded me that instead of trying to find certainty, trying to establish certainty in the world, sometimes we need to get more comfortable living in the gray. We need to get more comfortable living in the world of uncertainty as opposed to constantly trying to modify an inherently uncertain world. And it's tough. I mean, I'm not saying it's easy, and I'm not saying like that one doctor said to you that your therapist, that they're necessarily good at it, but I think it's important to be comfortable with uncertainty. And your book was a great reminder of that. So thank you again for writing it. I really, really enjoyed it.

[Jonathan Gluck]

Thank you for having me. It's all very kind of you to say, and it's been a pleasure speaking with you. I've really enjoyed it and appreciate it.

[Interviewer (possibly Dr. Sanjay Gupta or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Dr. Sanjay Gupta]

And like I said, I'm a member.

[Interviewer (possibly Dr. Sanjay Gupta or a co-host)]

Of the family, so maybe we can see each other in person sometime soon. Maybe go fly fishing or something.

[Jonathan Gluck]

That would be fantastic. You have a standing invitation anytime. Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly Dr. Sanjay Gupta or a co-host)]

All right.

[Dr. Sanjay Gupta]

All right.

[Interviewer (possibly Dr. Sanjay Gupta or a co-host)]

Thank you, sir. Appreciate it.

[Jonathan Gluck]

Thank you, sir.

[Dr. Sanjay Gupta]

That was Jonathan Gluck talking to me about his new memoir called An Exercise in Uncertainty. I think I can speak for all.

[Interviewer (possibly Dr. Sanjay Gupta or a co-host)]

Of us here at Chasing Life in.

[Dr. Sanjay Gupta]

Wishing him continued good health. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you on Tuesday for a new episode of Paging Dr. Gupta. In the meantime, enjoy my favorite holiday, Halloween.

[Jonathan Gluck]

Tav. I've got news for your ears. The podcast. I am your host, Michael Ian Black. Our country is doing so well economically.

[Interviewer (possibly Dr. Sanjay Gupta or a co-host)]

It's doing so incredibly well.

[Jonathan Gluck]

Question, trivia question. Is the country doing economically so well? Jill, you want to handle this?

[Podcast Host Michael Ian Black]

Yeah, I think I would ask the.

[Jonathan Gluck]

People who just got their food stamps cut off. So, yes, I think it's doing great. They no longer need assistance, food assistance. That's why they're getting cut off, right?

[Interviewer (possibly Dr. Sanjay Gupta or a co-host)]

Because people aren't hungry anymore.

[Jonathan Gluck]

Have I got news for your ears. Releases new episodes every Wednesday. Don't miss an episode. Follow us wherever you get your podcasts.