Podcast Summary – Chasing Life (CNN Podcasts)

Episode: “Living with Incurable Cancer”

Host: Dr. Sanjay Gupta
Guest: Jonathan Gluck, author of An Exercise in Uncertainty
Release Date: October 31, 2025

Episode Overview

In this deeply personal and profound conversation, Dr. Sanjay Gupta sits down with Jonathan Gluck—a writer and long-term survivor of incurable cancer—to explore what it’s like to live in the ambiguous “in-between” of illness and health. Jonathan introduces the term “cancer zombies” for people living with chronic cancer that is not curable but treatable—an existence defined by perpetual uncertainty. Through discussing his 20+ year journey with multiple myeloma, Gluck sheds light on the psychological, emotional, and social challenges of “living with, not dying from” incurable cancer, illustrating lessons on empathy, risk, the unpredictability of life, and the power of simply being present.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Living in the Liminal Space: “Cancer Zombies”

• Introduction of the “cancer zombie” concept:
  • Gluck coins “cancer zombies” to describe those who aren't fully sick or completely well; they are in a permanent state of “half-sick, half-well.”
    • “Zombies are half dead and half alive. Cancer zombies are half sick and half well, and doomed to be that way forever, the same way zombies are doomed to be half alive forever.” (Jonathan Gluck, 01:06)
  • Dr. Gupta expresses some discomfort with the term, but acknowledges its resonance in describing this “in-between” state many patients now occupy thanks to medical advances.
    • “Candidly, I don’t know how I feel about this term cancer zombie…but his journey has a lot to teach us.” (Dr. Gupta, 01:17)

Diagnosis Story: The Power and Pain of Uncertainty

• Initial symptoms and journey to diagnosis:
  • Started as hip pain after a slip in 2002—diagnosed as orthopedic at first; ignored until pain persisted for a year.
  • The diagnosis process was long, complicated, and shocking, with denial as the initial emotional response.
    • “It was just inconceivable to me at the time…The idea that it was something more serious than a minor orthopedic problem literally never crossed my mind.” (Gluck, 05:29)
    • “No, no, no, no, no. I think I said it five times, maybe six. This can't be happening. I'm 38 years old. I have a baby girl, just moved into a new apartment. I don't feel sick. Otherwise, it's impossible. And unfortunately, it was possible.” (Gluck, 08:06)
• Delays and complexity:
  • Took over a year and several doctors to diagnose multiple myeloma, highlighting complexity and rarity.
  • Prognosis at diagnosis: “A year and a half…maybe three to five years. But there are a ton of new drugs coming.” (Gluck, 10:07)

Hope, Honesty & Communication in Medicine

• What matters in breaking bad news:
  • Both the orthopedist and oncologist displayed compassion and warmth, which made a huge positive difference.
    • “To me that’s one of the magic words—compassion. The first doctor, he delivered the news with a sort of human compassion…he cared and that he was hurt and honestly probably a little scared himself.” (Gluck, 12:15)
    • “You just want to feel that people care and are sympathetic and are sorry. I’ve said the wrong thing to people…but I think just a basic compassion goes a long way.” (Gluck, 13:51)
• Advice for friends and loved ones:
  • Don’t jump to solutions or comparisons; instead, express simple sympathy.
    • “My colleague said, ‘I’m really sorry, that sucks.’ And I thought that’s just about perfect.” (Gluck, 13:51)

Life on the Frontier of Treatment

• Long-term management and medical advances:
  • Through ongoing cycles of remission and relapse, Gluck has benefited nearly every time from a new treatment arriving “just in time.”
  • Describes most recent, cutting-edge therapy: CAR-T therapy, which placed him in remission.
    • “Some of these new treatments came along within months or maybe a year, a year and a half of when I needed them...” (Gluck, 15:37)
    • “Just two weeks ago now…I had my most recent set of scans and blood tests…it was by far the best checkup I’ve had in many, many years…we were almost dumbfounded with how good my numbers are.” (Gluck, 16:35)

Redefining the “Cancer Story”

• Beyond the binary:
  • Most cancer stories, Gluck notes, have two endings: survival or death after a fight. He proposes a third story: living long-term in uncertainty with a chronic, incurable illness.
    • “There’s a whole category of people now…who are in this in-between world…neither sick or well, but they’re living with a permanent condition for longer than any of us ever did before when we received this kind of diagnosis. And I came up with this term that I call us cancer zombies.” (Gluck, 18:46)

The Role of Uncertainty – and Acceptance

• Uncertainty as a universal experience:
  • While living with an incurable illness magnifies it, uncertainty is the backdrop of everyone’s life.
    • “That’s the connective tissue to the title of the book: you’re living in a state of permanent uncertainty, you know, with a sword hanging over your head…” (Gluck, 21:18)
  • Tools to cope with uncertainty:
    • Distraction; getting into a flow state (fly fishing, yoga, etc.) are practical strategies; most importantly, realizing that struggling with uncertainty is human and normal.
    • “We’re all terrible at dealing with uncertainty as humans…knowing how hard it is is the most important thing. Then you don’t feel so alone.” (Gluck, 24:06)

How Illness Changes Attitude Toward Risk and Life

• Becoming less risk-averse:
  • “If I’ve survived what I’ve now survived, I can probably handle more than I thought I could.” (Gluck, 23:38)
  • Puts urgency on life, and makes “carpe diem” more than a cliché.
• Advice for his younger self:
  • Go after what you want—life is short; control what you can, accept what you can’t; realize you can handle more than you think; cultivate optimism for day-to-day quality of life, rather than as magical thinking about outcomes.
    • “Don’t be afraid to do whatever you want to do. Do it now. Life is short. Take advantage of your opportunities when you have them.” (Gluck, 27:35)
    • “I think I’d tell myself…you can handle more than you think you can. When I was first diagnosed that day…I thought to myself, there’s no way I’m going to be able to do this. And here I am.” (Gluck, 29:20)
    • “Whether it has an impact on my outcome…I don’t know the answer to that. But I do know that if I try and have a positive attitude, my day-to-day existence is that much better.” (Gluck, 30:40)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the “third” cancer story:
  • “There is a third story to tell…a whole category of people now who are in this in-between world where they’re neither sick or well, but they’re living with a permanent condition for longer than any of us ever did before.” (Gluck, 18:46)
• On compassion:
  • “Just a basic compassion goes a long way.” (Gluck, 13:51)
• On uncertainty as universal:
  • “Life is uncertain. What do they say the only certain things are? Death and taxes. Everything else has some degree of uncertainty to it.” (Gupta, 21:03)
• On advice to his younger self:
  • “Control the things you can control and try and accept the things you can’t…I’m not sure if that’s the secret to life, but in my experience, it’s maybe as close as I’ve come to discovering it.” (Gluck, 28:25)
• On acceptance and optimism:
  • “Really bad things happen and that sucks…But really good things can happen too.” (Gluck, 30:55)

Important Timestamps

• 00:32 – 01:17: Jonathan Gluck introduces the “cancer zombies” concept
• 03:23 – 06:44: Jonathan’s initial hip pain, denial, and the journey to diagnosis
• 10:07: Prognosis and hope from his oncologist
• 12:15 – 14:12: The role of compassion in breaking bad news
• 16:35 – 18:21: Experience with new treatments and a positive remission update
• 18:46: The ‘third story’ for cancer patients and “cancer zombies”
• 21:18 – 24:06: Coping with permanent uncertainty
• 27:35 – 30:55: Advice for his younger self, lessons learned from living with chronic disease

Tone & Takeaways

The episode’s tone is candid, reflective, and deeply empathetic. Both Gupta and Gluck model vulnerability—sharing fears, doubts, and emotional truths, but also hope and humor. Their discussion provides meaningful lessons for anyone living with uncertainty—medical or otherwise—and offers guidance for both those who are facing illness and the loved ones who want to support them. The “cancer zombie” notion is reframed as neither melodramatic nor grim, but as a way to feel seen in a life that is neither all sickness nor all health.

For Further Reflection

• Gluck’s An Exercise in Uncertainty is recommended for those living with chronic illness, their families, and anyone grappling with the unpredictable turns of life.
• Dr. Gupta’s interview style, blending medical expertise with personal empathy, models how clinicians can walk the line between hope and honesty.

For those who haven’t listened, this episode provides an honest, insightful look at the real-life complexities—emotional, practical, and existential—of living with incurable cancer, in a world where hope endures but certainty is never guaranteed.