← Cheeky Pint
Cheeky Pint
Ambrook CEO Mackenzie Burnett on American agriculture, rural resilience, and carrying 50lbs of fresh pork on Amtrak
00:54:53
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- [00:00]
Mackenzie Burnett
We decided actually early on not to give away free money. So that was a controversial in startup land and I think it actually was controversial at the time. And we grew slower in the beginning because of it. We ended up butchering the pig at the end and we took home that meat. It was like £50 that we carried on the Amtrak.
- [00:18]
Patrick Collison
You're the person that people love to have sitting next to them on Amtrak.
- [00:22]
Mackenzie Burnett
90% of payments in US agriculture still go through paper check. And it's not because they're behind the times, is because digital payments can be expensive for a lot of these producers.
- [00:31]
Patrick Collison
What are things that people should buy directly from farmers as opposed to in the supermarket?
- [00:36]
Mackenzie Burnett
You can just call up a local farmer and most likely they'll figure out a way to sell you half a cow. How long did it take you to pour a perfect pint of Guinness?
- [00:47]
Patrick Collison
I'm not sure how can. These are particularly perfect, but better than.
- [00:51]
Mackenzie Burnett
The first couple episodes?
- [00:52]
Patrick Collison
Yeah, for sure. Not that I want to blame the keg, but it was all the keg. Mackenzie Burnett is the CE and co founder of Ambrook. Ambrook provides financial tools for farms to help them stay independent and build better businesses. Cheers.
- [01:07]
Mackenzie Burnett
Cheers.
- [01:09]
Patrick Collison
I just want to start with Ambrook. Many people who are not in farming will not know what Ambrook is. Tell us the Ambrook product story and how you got here.
- [01:21]
Mackenzie Burnett
Yeah, so Ambrook, we build financial management software for farms, ranches and increasingly other, I would say industrial mom and pop shops. So these are more complex businesses, typically family run in the US what financial management software means is it's accounting software, payments and banking. A lot of that is built on Stripe's infrastructure and is, I think made a lot more possible to be able to bundle a lot of that. I think you had sort of the, the bundling, the great unbundling and now you have the great rebundling that has been enabled by a lot of embedded infrast tools. But that is what we build. The broad mission is how do you help American family businesses become more profitable and more resilient? And resiliency is both economically and environmentally resilient. And we had started by trying to help a lot of farms access working capital during the pandemic. And then we pretty quickly realized that while we could help them with these one off pandemic relief programs which are actually designed to be extremely simple to apply for and simple to get the money, even then a lot of businesses were struggling to get that those checks. We found that trying to help them with the more routine working capital Whether through public or private lenders and grant givers, it was just basically people didn't have a lot of these businesses didn't actually have the financial record keeping that you needed to. And it wasn't because they were behind on technology necessarily. It's because their businesses have a level of complexity that you would see if it was a startup, it would have a cfo.
- [03:01]
Patrick Collison
Yes.
- [03:02]
Mackenzie Burnett
That was a big unlock in realizing that a lot of, you know, when we were asking, oh, you actually do have all these tools that are built for a lot of these S and P sort of accounting software. And they still weren't able to put together their balance. They couldn't produce a balance sheet, what you need for a loan.
- [03:19]
Patrick Collison
Okay. So farms are very complex businesses. You started off helping them with COVID stimulus essentially. And then as part of that you realize that just it's very hard to understand the farm's finances. Which got you into financial tooling.
- [03:32]
Mackenzie Burnett
Yeah, exactly. And we spent the first year and a half just trying to access the problem. I think that's what I talked to the team about is like your first job as a founder is to get access to the problem. And sometimes people get it right pretty quickly and sometimes it takes a little bit to get access to the right problem. So the first thing was just get access to the problem talking to hundreds of farmers and the whole ecosystem around them. So we would talk to a bunch of ag lenders and we're like, well, how do you do it? And they're like, we drive to the farm and we like what?
- [04:01]
Patrick Collison
They're like, yep, yeah, A lot of.
- [04:03]
Mackenzie Burnett
Fences, they actually drive. So they drive to the farm and they sit down in the kitchen table and they actually put together their balance sheet with the producer.
- [04:11]
Patrick Collison
I see. So as an ag lender, you have to actually get in there and help them understand the finances.
- [04:16]
Mackenzie Burnett
Yeah, exactly. So I think that. And that's, I would say that's more typical than not. There's actually a level of complexity here for farms and a lot of these types of like I would say resource intensive businesses where you're dealing with locations, inventory, loans. So you're dealing with a balance sheet, heavy ness of it. And it's what we call multi P and L. So you have multiple business lines, multiple PNL payment methods. Even like the rise of the pandemic, for example, I think increased, kind of accelerated the complexity of a lot of these businesses because suddenly you could actually have an online shop.
- [04:51]
Patrick Collison
Totally. Yeah, yeah. We bought a lot of Snake River Farms steak during the pandemic it was really good.
- [04:58]
Mackenzie Burnett
Exactly. Yeah. No, exact. And I think. And that is a nightmare to bookkeep for.
- [05:02]
Patrick Collison
Yes, yes. Because individual transactions, it's not just like one supplier.
- [05:06]
Mackenzie Burnett
Reconcile it against like what actually hits your bank account. And so yes, it's great. All these tools have accelerated businesses ability to do business, but it's also increased the complexity of business. And a lot of these businesses, because they're so low margin and have tons of pressures on both sides in both input suppliers and the marketing side of things that are squeezing margins for a lot of these small businesses, they have to diversify.
- [05:31]
Patrick Collison
Right.
- [05:31]
Mackenzie Burnett
In order to be able to. It's smart business to diversify, but it also makes it a much more complicated business to actually figure out where are you making and losing money?
- [05:38]
Patrick Collison
Okay, so I have so many questions. I want to ask questions about your business and want to ask questions about the general direction of agriculture in the U.S. but maybe let's start with what segment of the market are you addressing?
- [05:49]
Mackenzie Burnett
Can you guess how many farms in the U.S. make more than 5 million a year in annual sales? There's 2 million farms in the U.S. so it's a 1.8 million.
- [05:59]
Patrick Collison
How many make more than five million a year in annual sales? 10,000.
- [06:04]
Mackenzie Burnett
Yeah, so it's about 10,000.
- [06:06]
Patrick Collison
Oh, okay.
- [06:06]
Mackenzie Burnett
Yeah. Which is an extreme power law.
- [06:09]
Patrick Collison
Yeah.
- [06:09]
Mackenzie Burnett
Right. So 10,000 out of like 1.8 million means that the majority of commercial farmers. Right. Are doing somewhere south of that. And so they have a level of complexity that might be sort of like the $15 million business, but they are at 500k. You know what else?
- [06:27]
Patrick Collison
You're mostly targeting farms that do up to 5 million in.
- [06:31]
Mackenzie Burnett
So, so we started there and now we're starting to work with farms that are larger. Right. But like the, you know, if you just go out and market a product to farms, you are going to get like the majority of. Of producers that are in that range between like the, you know, 250k a year to about 5 million.
- [06:45]
Patrick Collison
And does the product work for everyone? You know, almond farms in California and you know, dairy farmers and you know, the huge crop farms in the Midwest. Is there any kind?
- [06:57]
Mackenzie Burnett
No. Yeah, totally. We, we actually deliberately started pretty broad. It's unusual if you think of us as ag tech software. It's not unusual if you think of us as just financial, like management Software.
- [07:06]
Patrick Collison
Yeah, yeah. QuickBooks is not specific to anyone in the industry.
- [07:08]
Mackenzie Burnett
Exactly. And we were pretty deliberate in the beginning to make sure that we were working with some ranchers, some row croppers, Some, some more diversified like veggie producers to make sure that we weren't accidentally building something for just one sort of one vertical of that. And actually I think the thing that was a really happy accident that was an example of the customers pulling us into a much broader TAM or part of the market was our second customer was a cattle feeder operation in Arizona. And we drove. This is when our first 10 customers we drove, we onboarded by hand. So it was a big deal when we moved to video onboarding. But no, it was. They're about two hours outside of a regional airport. So we drove there and we kind of got them onboarded and they were like great. Really happy to be onboarded. Now can you help us with our other four entities? And by the way, none of them are farms. And so you had a trucking entity, you had like a custom service entity which actually just looks like sort of consulting or invoice heavy business. And so we immediately realized that in order to well serve agriculture, we actually had to serve and think about a lot of these other industries which now. Right. Is enabling us to expand to a lot of these adjacent or other. Just other types of industries. But in the beginning we kind of realized that we had built something that could help a husband and wife couple be able to handle a five entity business. That's as you know, pretty complicated.
- [08:33]
Patrick Collison
Yeah. Like for an ERP system, multi subsidiary support is like a pretty advanced feature for something like a netsuite. And what you're saying is you need that even for quite small.
- [08:41]
Mackenzie Burnett
Exactly. Right now we're going. I would say the main competitive software that folks are switching from us is Intuit software. Eventually that will be something more like a netsuite. Right. But I think the thing that we actually realized was that there wasn't something in between. We are building for those businesses that have effectively Acro and quickbooks but don't have the teams or resources to onboard to like a sage or a NetSuite.
- [09:06]
Patrick Collison
Yeah. Are there farms that use NetSuite?
- [09:09]
Mackenzie Burnett
There are farms that use NetSuite. Yeah, they're in the north of the 5 million.
- [09:14]
Patrick Collison
That's a big farm.
- [09:14]
Mackenzie Burnett
Yeah. Range. It's a big farm. It's when you have teams of people who can afford to implement and then maintain that type of stuff.
- [09:21]
Patrick Collison
Getting into kind of agribusiness type.
- [09:23]
Mackenzie Burnett
Yeah, exactly. And so they tend to be much more vertically integrated. Right. They'll have a processor component or something like that. You know, you kind of realize that. Actually I think to go against something like an ERP because you can't go, you know, it's a huge feature floor. You have to, if you talk to most of those businesses, even the really complex ones that are using something like an ERP are only using 10% of the features.
- [09:43]
Patrick Collison
Sure.
- [09:43]
Mackenzie Burnett
And so the game becomes like, what is the 10%? And like what can you pull down for a different audience type? Right. Like, I think one of the key differentiators we decided to build toward, I think correctly, just by in the beginning was instead of building for the financial professional, we built for the business owner.
- [10:01]
Patrick Collison
Yes. When you think about it, it's kind of funny that erps became so horizontal because for context, for people, ERP is enterprise resource planning software, which doesn't really tell you anything. But my understanding, tell me if you think this characterization is correct, is it is a combination of financial software where it's the three financial statements and a huge amount of automation around the stuff needed to produce those financial statements. And so if you think about it, if you run a factory, to be able to produce the balance sheet, you have a bunch of inventory, but to be able to know what should be in that inventory line in the balance sheet, you actually have to know how many widgets you have sitting in bins in the facility in Cleveland. And so it becomes this like all singing, all dancing, multi tentacled system with very complex implementations and everything like that. And I'd say really grew up in a manufacturing paradigm and yet Stripe has an ERP system and lots of regular companies have ERP systems. And so it feels like it'd be much better suited for them to be vertically specific where there should be farming ERP and there should be manufacturing erp, which is once more the traditional design sector.
- [11:07]
Mackenzie Burnett
I think the modularity is what hasn't actually been brought to the S and B level. It does exist at this much larger enterprise level.
- [11:15]
Patrick Collison
Yes.
- [11:16]
Mackenzie Burnett
And I think, you know, I do think that as software becomes easier to build, and that's not just from AI, but it's also from a lot of the embedded infrastructure. There's tons of reasons why it is much easier to build the version of what we're building today than it would have been 20 years ago, even cross platform. Like a choice that we made really early on was to build on React native, which immediately just gives you. It means that we don't, like we have not had actually a full time mobile engineer on the team because everyone has just learned React native and you immediately get across platforms.
- [11:48]
Patrick Collison
I presume you have a huge amount of mobile usage because people are Talking about all day.
- [11:52]
Mackenzie Burnett
So about a third of our customers use exclusively mobile to do all of their bookkeeping and accounting, which is insane for the level of complexity that they're dealing with.
- [12:04]
Patrick Collison
Totally. Yeah.
- [12:04]
Mackenzie Burnett
Yeah.
- [12:05]
Patrick Collison
For doing accounting, it's like, that's a laptop kind of activity.
- [12:07]
Mackenzie Burnett
Totally, totally. And so I think very early on, we built for the type of person who is. Who was not necessarily financially, didn't have a lot of financial professional training, who was spending more time in the field than in the office. Right. He was dealing with a level of complexity that typically these ERPs were better suited for. And we kind of brought all that into a package that was affordable and accessible. And we also do a ton of financial literacy training and education, and we wrap a lot of what would otherwise be like a custom journal entry in these types of workflows. Right. It's sort of. Exactly. It's like you can really think of like an ERP where sort of this system is like, get the data in, do something with the data, get the data out, and then get the data in.
- [12:52]
Patrick Collison
It's kind of a thank you.
- [12:53]
Mackenzie Burnett
Exactly. Those are all the workflows. Yeah.
- [12:56]
Patrick Collison
And so you rock up to a farm, you know, you're off in Visalia or somewhere, and you are visiting a farm, and they're on QuickBooks or they're on Sage or maybe not Sage something. And you say you shouldn't be using your existing system. You should instead switch to Ambrook. What is the wow feature? What gets people to switch? What's the point in the demo where they're like, okay, I'm in.
- [13:23]
Mackenzie Burnett
Yeah, totally. So there's a couple of things. There are like, what's in the software? And then there's the advantages we have of just being a startup that can care harder. In the beginning, you can just care hard about everything. But a couple of the core things that we have built differently. The first is that when you look at the software, it just looks cleaner. It doesn't sound like that's a 10x feature, but we solved a thousand tiny paper cuts so that when someone looks and interacts with Amber for the first time, it's a little bit of a breath of relief. The second thing is that we enable a type of multidimensionality in the software. So QuickBooks has a concept called classes. We enable essentially a type of multiple tagging system and splitting of every transactions in a way that you can slice and dice your data without having to kick that out to a spreadsheet. And you can do it in your own language. And so we kind of help folks kind of set up, okay, like this is my cattle enterprises, my HAY enterprises in their own language. And it's very clean in the interface of how to do that. So again, it's the. Get the data in. We made a lot simpler and cleaner, but they're actually doing quite complex analysis actually when they're, when they're doing that type of work. And the last thing is actually mobile. It's like the number of conversations that we had with producers who would describe an actual shoebox receipts that they would take at the end of the year to their accountant. And that was their financial management system. We built a lot cleaner workflows around receipts, around paper basically. Receipts, checks, those types of things so that you can take photos of things, categorize them immediately. We use that. That is actually one, one place that we're using that folks are really using a lot of like AI features to do a lot of that type of. And categorization of those things. But those are sort of like the breath of fresh air when you first see the software. And then it's these. What it enables you to do. It's like the simple, you know, the simple but powerful workflows.
- [15:12]
Patrick Collison
What's an example of a kind of analysis that someone might not do on their farm but for this software, Understanding.
- [15:18]
Mackenzie Burnett
Your cost per acre is extremely challenging to get to in something like a QuickBooks. And so like there's a reason why there's a whole category of startups that are funded to do FP and A on top of QuickBooks. Like you don't have to do that with Ambrook. It's built in and it's because. And the reason why those startups exist is because QuickBooks did not actually have the underlying data architecture in a specific way that we chose to do native in the beginning. And so we can do way more complex unit economic analysis and those types of things in Amber. And I think essentially without requiring someone to have financial professional training.
- [15:51]
Patrick Collison
Okay, so I'm running a farm and there's 100 acres for sale across the road. The decision as to whether I should buy that 100 acres really depends on what is my cost per acre right now. So I know what is the outlay until that becomes productive.
- [16:04]
Mackenzie Burnett
Yeah, totally.
- [16:04]
Patrick Collison
But I can't work that out unless I know my existing cost per acre totally, which I probably don't know.
- [16:08]
Mackenzie Burnett
Yeah, yeah. So I think, I think, yeah, that's exactly right. And it's. Can you put together your balance sheet and stuff in time in A professional way, such as you can convince your lender, your banker to be able to give you the loan to buy the, you know, sort of to buy the 100 acres across the road.
- [16:22]
Patrick Collison
Got it. Okay. So this better accounting is a significant reason people are coming to the product today. Plus, what are the other reasons that people come for the product or maybe will come to the product in the future?
- [16:35]
Mackenzie Burnett
I kind of think about startups as you have pre distribution opportunities and post distribution opportunities. And the pre distribution opportunities are what can you do to convince enough nodes to join your network? And the post distribution opportunities are what you can do when you have enough nodes. Amric is just now crossing over in some regions because we have enough regional density with some of these nodes to get into a post distribution world for some of our customers. But I think in that world of you have enough nodes in the network, it should be instant and free to transact within the Ambrook ecosystem. And I think a lot of what we are doing or the vision is to be able to keep more capital in local communities. And I think that has been something that I've become increasingly passionate about, which is, for example, 90% of payments in US agriculture still go through paper check. And it's not because they're behind the times, it's because digital payments can be expensive for a lot of these producers. I think actually something that we're building with because of the Stripe treasury network is the ability to do these instant free payments within the deposit ecosystem. And ideally, and those are when they're within the ERP system, they have the context in both sides of the erp. So you don't. My invoice is your bill. You don't have to actually do the ARAP shuffle. Everything is reconciled on both sides. In the future we could say, okay, this category in your system actually maps to this sort of chart of accounts category in this system. You can imagine a lot. What could you do when you actually have really rich metadata that's going through the network?
- [18:13]
Patrick Collison
We think about this distinction a lot. I think it's very good for startups of pre distribution versus post distribution. How do you get people using the product and then how do you make it better when they're using the product? And when we started Stripe, we were very much building Stripe in a single player mode where you have your Stripe account. And the fact that other people use Stripe is, well, they didn't at the time.
- [18:31]
Mackenzie Burnett
They were as small.
- [18:32]
Patrick Collison
Whereas now a big part of how we can make the products better is the fact that there is so much Internet commerce running on Stripe, I mean a very simple one, but it's really started working is Stripe Radar, where it is now the case that most credit cards on the Internet we've seen before. And so we kind of know it's suspicious if a credit card comes to us from a totally new device and totally new IP address and things like that. But that's the kind of post distribution thing where you can't build that product initially, but when you have enough scale it becomes very significant.
- [19:01]
Mackenzie Burnett
I think one of the most rewarding things about building for small businesses is that you are able to build these real relationships with people who are entrusting you with their numbers and their future. And what can we do when we are translating just not just in the individual context of the single player world, but the multiplayer world is communities? And I just been thinking a lot about that, which is what does rural resilience mean? What does economic resilience mean for a lot of people?
- [19:25]
Patrick Collison
What does rural resilience mean where I think there's a general view that the economics of US agriculture are really hard and it's challenged from a labor point of view. There's all these different challenges. And so maybe you can talk about the landscape and that rural resilience, I.
- [19:43]
Mackenzie Burnett
Think rural flight, you know, which is I think the opposite of rural resilience, which is what you're seeing in a lot of places. So you're just seeing a brain drain from a lot of rural communities around the world does impact local communities. But I think the thing that is usually under, under discussed is how it impacts national or like global communities as well. But when it comes to rural resilience, what I mean is when you have, when you have like nodes of family businesses that, that can sustain multiple generations of passing down the business, for example, or people want to stay in local communities basically. And I think that is something that we're really interested in and we have seen worked well for some of our customers. They're actually able to make the succession planning work. They're able to build a business that can be passed down through multiple generations.
- [20:34]
Patrick Collison
As in, you think we need to be more serious about preserving farming as working as an important part of the US Economy?
- [20:43]
Mackenzie Burnett
Yeah, absolutely. I think sometimes the free market optimizes for too small of a unit. And if we instead optimized for a community unit, for example, how would that change the way that we made decisions? And that community unit I think actually is what sustains local economies through time. If you are just optimizing for the very short term turnaround, which makes total sense actually for an individual to say, okay, that this is my only sort of retirement is to sell to this developer. And I think that's a world that I would love to be able to build more business resilience so that they don't have to feel like that's their only option.
- [21:24]
Patrick Collison
You're saying farming produces positive externalities. Like if the cartoon villain private equity, you know, slash and burn costs and you know, make the products worse and raise prices. If that's at the, you know, full negative externalities end of the spectrum. Farming is much more the positive externalities.
- [21:39]
Mackenzie Burnett
Yeah, I think there's a lot of positive externalities for it that are like under accounted for.
- [21:42]
Patrick Collison
How do you make a medium sized farm work in the United States? Pick your favorite example, whether it be crops or dairy or beef or what have you. What is required to make. Because again, it's a hard business what's required to make it work.
- [21:55]
Mackenzie Burnett
So I'll take a cattle ranch for example. For a cattle ranch, I think to work in in the US you have to a couple of things. One, it's a lot of farming are these like boom bust cycles. Right. So they are subject to commodity markets. They're also subject to like input prices, inflation, those types of things. And so you do see this like boom bust cycle throughout the economy. So one, there has to be a resilience and ability to like to weather that. That's one piece. I think the second piece is to get access to the inputs perspective. So you can think of inputs as like access to grazing land, access to feed. Right. Access to a lot of these other things.
- [22:32]
Patrick Collison
A lot of rancher is a ranch on BLM land. Right. A lot of government leases which helps get access to the amount of land you need.
- [22:38]
Mackenzie Burnett
Exactly. For context, like ranching require sort of cattle ranch requires quite a lot of land. And there's a way to do it in a way that is actually better for grasslands management.
- [22:48]
Patrick Collison
Why is it better for grasslands? Oh, it's fire management.
- [22:51]
Mackenzie Burnett
Yeah. So it can be. There is such a thing as like overgrazing. Right. Like that is a. But I think a lot of what people talk about with rotational grades called rotational grazing. Just a lot of lab to move the cattle every day to be able to do that. But it actually does build back up the soil in a way where the cattle graze and then they poop and then the poop becomes better soil and you sort of can move throughout. And there's a lot of interesting virtual fencing to be able to make that easier. But there is a way in which healthy livestock management also creates healthier soils. And it is possible. It just is. Technically you have to be trained and understand how to do it. And there is some capital barriers or labor bearers to be able to do that. So there is access to the type that would incentivize, sort of like create the incentives to be able to make that possible. And then you have like on the other side access to markets. Historically, if you're just sort of doing wholesale, right, you're going to get wholesale prices. This is where you see the rise of D2C really help. And when you're able to have access to higher margin markets. So a lot of online payments actually has helped that a ton. It just is. Also you need to be able to manage your books in a way that can actually make that easier to manage. Again, what I'm talking about is diversification. Right. And whenever you introduce diversification, you also introduce complexity or in risk.
- [24:05]
Patrick Collison
Can any farm do D2C? I would have thought maybe it requires some minimum scale to make sense or you know, it's just reasonably labor intensive. You know, the packing and shipping of individual shipments, individual customers.
- [24:20]
Mackenzie Burnett
There's actually a whole spectrum of different ways in which you can make it work. You can do it all yourself. But there's also a lot of like co ops basically in which you can kind of share infrastructure. It just requires a shift in incentive structures, infrastructure, those types of things. And so it requires. And that sometimes can require a lot of public investment.
- [24:37]
Patrick Collison
Yeah, yeah. What are things that people should buy directly from farmers as opposed to in the supermarket? Like there's some things that travel pretty well. Beer travels pretty well actually. And so you don't need to brew your own beer for quality purposes. You may want to just cause fun. I was surprised. I thought the steak in the supermarket, I assumed it was pretty good.
- [24:53]
Mackenzie Burnett
I would say meat.
- [24:54]
Patrick Collison
We have local supermarkets, but yeah, the direct to consumer meat was really good. Veggies as well. I think the local stuff will be better than the long supply chain stuff.
- [25:01]
Mackenzie Burnett
I think it'd be surpr. Call up a local farmer and most likely they'll figure out a way to sell you half a cow.
- [25:08]
Patrick Collison
Well, to find an easy online payment solution.
- [25:11]
Mackenzie Burnett
Yeah, exactly. No, I think actually the biggest thing people don't really think about is like freezer storage or something.
- [25:16]
Patrick Collison
Yeah, half cow is quite bigger than people expect.
- [25:17]
Mackenzie Burnett
Yeah. And it's like that feeds like a full family for a while. Actually. There's a lot of things you can.
- [25:24]
Patrick Collison
Buy direct, but what should you buy direct?
- [25:26]
Mackenzie Burnett
I think meat is a big one. That makes way more economic sense to buy direct if you just are willing.
- [25:31]
Patrick Collison
To like, not just economic sense, gastronomic sense. That's what I'm talking about.
- [25:34]
Mackenzie Burnett
Much better, too. Something I did with my team that one of my teammates found and suggested, which was really awesome, was have you ever been to a traditional pig harvest?
- [25:44]
Patrick Collison
I have helped butcher a pig and that was quite an experience. But yeah, I think we didn't see all the steps, but yeah, so, yeah.
- [25:52]
Mackenzie Burnett
We saw all the steps and so that was a really interesting experience of participating in that. Then we ended up butchering the pig at the end and we took home that meat. It was like £50 that we carried, like on the Amtrak.
- [26:07]
Patrick Collison
You're the person that people love to have sitting next to them on Amtrak.
- [26:11]
Mackenzie Burnett
That was awesome. It was by far the best pork I've ever had.
- [26:14]
Patrick Collison
Annoyance level one is people playing music without headphones on their phone. Annoyance Level 8, carry half a cow, carrying half a pig.
- [26:22]
Mackenzie Burnett
Yeah, yeah. No, that farmer went to as a customer now. So it was. Yeah, it worked. It worked.
- [26:27]
Patrick Collison
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So direct to consumer is a big thing. But sorry, I'm trying to rewind to where we were. We were talking about, oh yeah, the economics of farming in this drainage. Labor seems really hard.
- [26:37]
Mackenzie Burnett
Yes. Labor is especially hard right now. But it's hard for a couple of reasons. I think there's a lot of immigration related issues that a lot of folks are kind of facing right now. But the second action, and that is.
- [26:49]
Patrick Collison
Tightening of immigration, meaning less labor.
- [26:51]
Mackenzie Burnett
Yeah. So tightening of immigration means that you have less labor because a lot of farms rely on seasonal labor farms and processing facilities actually, which people don't think about, which is if you can't sell your product, then, you know, for a lot of livestock, for example, then, you know. And that was the issue in pandemic too, with a lot of processing facilities shut down. Right. But the other side is actually skilled labor. It's not just seasonal labor, but it's particularly skilled labor has been harder and harder to get even before the pandemic.
- [27:23]
Patrick Collison
What's an example of some of these kind of specialists?
- [27:25]
Mackenzie Burnett
I think it's just there's actually quite a lot of skill in knowing how to like pick a crop without bruising it, for example, at the speeds that you need. Or for example, like animal husbandry or a lot of these other types of skills that again, this goes back to like, how do we make it so that there isn't so much like rural brain drain and rural flight, like a lot of the labor. You know, the people who might otherwise be doing that might not actually want to live or work in those areas, even if they're not sort of seasonal immigrants.
- [27:56]
Patrick Collison
From a policy perspective, if you were in charge, if you were running, I don't know, usda, both your parents worked for usda. What would you be waving your magic wand to do?
- [28:06]
Mackenzie Burnett
Oh, interesting. I think there's actually two. One of them's outside the usda, one of them's within the usda. I'm really interested in a lot of the stuff that's happening with open banking regulations, because I think actually the cost to a lot of what we're seeing or doing is the lack of accounting software is just an attempt. Like, all we are doing is trying to get external data sources in and make them all make sense, you know, and kind of what we were talking about with the metadata and all that before, like, there's so much information that could actually be really helpful for our customers that is not being shared or is really expensive and difficult to get. And so that is something that I am super interested in, how things are developing there.
- [28:46]
Patrick Collison
So you're saying concretely there, like, in many countries, it is mandated that banks provide structured access to financial data for their customers, because they say, you know, it's the customer's own data. Banks have to give it on request and, you know, in API formats and things like this. It's actually a very live topic in the US Right now, and there's lots of debates over this Rule 1033 and things like this. But you're saying it'd be very useful for Ambrook to have some open banking mandates where you guys can reliably get data in a sensible format.
- [29:15]
Mackenzie Burnett
Yeah, it is not just useful for Ambrook, it's used for. I mean, for our customers. Like, that is ultimately who we're trying to serve.
- [29:22]
Patrick Collison
Yeah, it's their data.
- [29:22]
Mackenzie Burnett
It's their data. And so. And all we're trying to do is get the data from the summer someone else and give it back to them, actually. Which is kind of a crazy thing that we have to fight for that. But, yeah, no, I think that would be. That is something that. If I could wave a magic wand, honestly, I think that would actually help more than people think. And I know that you asked the question about the usda, but I actually think that that would be.
- [29:43]
Patrick Collison
That's your top.
- [29:44]
Mackenzie Burnett
That would be my top. But I think on the USDA side, there's a lot of hoops that people have to go through in order to be able to get access to like funding or programs that might be useful for the type of incentive structure alignment that I was talking through. And I think a simplification of a lot of that, which I think a lot of people want.
- [30:02]
Patrick Collison
But we have our thumb in the scale, but we could at least do it in a more efficient way with a scoreboard. Totally. Would you tweak farm subsidies up or down?
- [30:11]
Mackenzie Burnett
To be honest, I think farm subsidies are so sticky that what I would do instead of tweaking up and down is I would just be extremely deliberate about when we choose to introduce a farm subsidy. What are we? And if this was still around 100 years from now, would we be okay with it? When you are designing these incentive structures, there's whole livelihoods and politics that are built around them and they last.
- [30:36]
Patrick Collison
And they're going to be sticky and.
- [30:37]
Mackenzie Burnett
They'Re going to be extremely sticky. So it's more like be careful what you wish for is I think actually the response I have to that. Yeah.
- [30:48]
Patrick Collison
I'm Brook is a window into one of the most underappreciated stories in the Internet. Vertical SaaS as Max is explaining the finance of a modern farm. They're complex and generic accounting software just doesn't work. So ambrook is building SaaS from the ground up to solve deep industry specific problems that generic tools can solve like crop specific profitability or specialized agricultural lending. And Stripe then is the platform for these platforms. Stripe powers tens of thousands of these from Ambrook for farming to Mindbody for gyms. And collectively those platforms power millions of small businesses. The best vertical SaaS platforms become an all round system of record for their customers. They offer payments and loans and spend management and subscriptions and invoicing and tax automation reporting, all of which you can get from stripe. There's now 95 platforms on Stripe with more than a billion dollars in gmv. So if you're building that indispensable system of record for your industry, come talk to us at Stripe. Are carbon credits a big revenue line for a lot of your customers?
- [31:49]
Mackenzie Burnett
They're not the biggest revenue line for.
- [31:52]
Patrick Collison
No, but it's a relevant revenue line for a lot of your customers because you get into forestry stuff for a.
- [31:58]
Mackenzie Burnett
Lot of land management. So for many of our customers, they do participate in carbon credit programs, but it's not as many as you might think. It still is a relatively small part of US agriculture, despite I think them being kind of really big in the Public sort of consciousness. Carbon pavements are on very long time frames and they require you to maintain the same behavior behavior over about a 10 year period. Otherwise you get clawback provisions. And so actually I think it locks.
- [32:26]
Patrick Collison
You into a plan.
- [32:27]
Mackenzie Burnett
It kind of locks you into a plan when you, when you might actually want to be kind of adaptive or versatile in that. And I think actually went to a sustainability and ag conference last year and something that one of the producers there said really struck me, which was, you know, it's not enough to have a 1x payback. You have to prove that these programs can have a 3-4x payback. Otherwise why would they do it? They should just do something else that is going to be able to better improve their bottom line. And I think that that just goes back to a lot of our thesis, which is this idea of pragmatic environmentalism. You just cannot, you are not going to see the level of change that you might want to see or need unless it makes sense for the bottom line.
- [33:13]
Patrick Collison
Climate is a very politically charged topic in the US you studied climate security at Stanford. Most of your customers are in red states or the red part of blue states, such as in California. But I also think that people's views on these topics tend to be pretty nuanced. Like I think I bet San Franciscans couldn't effectively steel man the views of your customers on such climate topics. So what do your customers think on climate topics?
- [33:41]
Mackenzie Burnett
It's a great question. Our customers think a bunch of different things. So I wouldn't be able to summarize with just just one statement though I will say that one of my favorite articles that off range, which is our editorial independent media publication published, was an article titled Where Soil is Holy. But Climate is seldom Mentioned. And I think that it's kind of like talking about climate sometimes feels like talking about politics or money. And yet these producers that this article talks about and a lot of the producers that we work with or just around the US are actually doing the type of things that you would put under like a climate umbrella.
- [34:24]
Patrick Collison
Yeah, just not branding it as such.
- [34:26]
Mackenzie Burnett
It's just not branding it as such. And I think a lot of actually what I've learned from our customers is that a lot of people want the same things. They just aren't talking about it in a way that might feel familiar to someone who grew up in, you know, around, like San Francisco, for example.
- [34:43]
Patrick Collison
We're talking a lot here about the insights into the business that Ambrook allows. One of my favorite books about accounting is the end of accounting, which talks about how GAAP is basically poorly suited to this day and age. One of the things it points out is that accounting is trying to do many jobs, right? Like if you're an equity holder, it's trying to help you figure out what the future returns on your equity might be. If you're a debt holder, it's helping you figure out will you lose all your money or will you get paid back. If you're the irs, it's helping you figure out how much taxes this business owes. And then there's kind of management accounting, which is helping you understand, like you were saying, the kind of P and L view of hay or you know, the dairy side of the operation or something like that. And so it's kind of helping management make better decisions. But in particular, people tend to have a view that there is this God given truth of just what the business is. Whereas in fact accounting is a tool for a job. And the job you might want to do with accounting actually really varies. And so I'm curious how you think about that. Where, which are the jobs that you want to help farmers do? Like, are you helping them pay their taxes? Is it all about making different decisions? And yeah, just that idea that accounting is a bit overloaded these days.
- [36:05]
Mackenzie Burnett
Yeah, totally. Actually, I think the way that we talk about it internally is there's four types of accounts. The first layer is just cash. It's sort of like if you did a snapshot what's happening and actually most many businesses in the US file cash basis. The second layer, which I think which a lot of startups are kind of subjected to because they meet the threshold requirement for this is filing accrual, which is we suddenly introduce the idea of time into accounting. So the idea of accounts receivable, accounts payable, ar, ip, et cetera, etc. The next layer is enterprise accounting, which is, you know, that idea of like your entire business line basically. So hay, cattle, you know, et cetera. And then the final layer is managerial accounting, which is truly like unit economics. It's like, what is my cost per acre? Like how much should it cost me for a dairy to produce a pound of milk? Like that type of accounting. And the way that we think about it is we have customers who come in at every layer. And I think actually the beauty of building accounting software is that it can scale. Like, yes, GAAP might be like, you know, sort of overloaded, but at least it is standardized and it scales. And so we have folks who come in who are coming off of actual pen and paper and a shoebox of receipts who are interested in adopting software for the first time to do their accounting to just get from the, you know, to get tax prep to be done easier or maybe go from cash to accrual. And then we have folks who are at sort of the, they're at the, you know, the cruel Oregon enterprise layer who are interested in actually getting to the unit economic analysis. I mean I've seen. So dairies are extremely complicated businesses. They're like a. They're like a cow calf operation which is your typical cattle ranch and then some. They're like a very complex cow calf. And I've seen dairies hire ex bankers to get to that level of the managerial analysis.
- [38:01]
Patrick Collison
Yes, yes.
- [38:02]
Mackenzie Burnett
And I think that that is what we are building for Ambra is we have customers who are able to get to all four layers of accounting because of the way that we just like architected the data structure in the beginning and the way that we are trying to wrap and de jargon a lot of the complexities of doing your books correctly.
- [38:23]
Patrick Collison
So you want to walk people up the inside curve and take wherever they're currently operating and just make it easy for them to reach the next step.
- [38:30]
Mackenzie Burnett
And it's okay. We consider customers to be successful in Ambrook if they just hop one level up.
- [38:35]
Patrick Collison
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. People might think you of as a software business but I got a sense that you identify in a significant way as a fintech business. Is that a fair characterization and maybe you can expand on that?
- [38:47]
Mackenzie Burnett
Yeah, for sure. I typically think of fintech businesses in two different ways. The first way is just are you sort of facilitating payments? And so there's a sense of like are you in the payments flow? The second way that folks typically talk about fintech businesses is like do you hold deposits? Do you lend? You know, do you lend basically deposits and lending maybe also. So cards I think would be part of that. And so for us we actually from the very beginning saw them as inseparable. Like we were just interested in solving our customers problems and in order to be able to get more accurate data into the erp. Being in the payments flow was just made it a lot easier to be able to do that. And I think building with a lot of the fintech optionality enables us to, to have a lot more of the options to solve more of the problems with capital that we were kind of talking about earlier. So yeah, I think about that as inseparable. I think that the choice that we didn't make though is and we are just now getting into credit. We decided actually early on not to give away free money. So that was a controversial in startup landing and I think actually was controversial at the time. And we grew slower in the beginning because of it. And I think that the thought that I had was that and we had raised in the very beginning. It started during zirp. And so the thought that I had was basically what I did was I did all these financial models and I was like, I just don't see how this makes sense actually if I'm trying to get to a healthy margin business, I don't see how the free money.
- [40:27]
Patrick Collison
Part makes it challenging.
- [40:30]
Mackenzie Burnett
I don't see how this works if interest rates change even a little bit. A piece of advice that I got that I thought was really helpful and kind of helped me shape this, which is I wanted to actually get the hard parts right first, which I think is the SaaS side of the fintech side. And I wanted people to be adopting us because they liked the software and we got the workflows right, not because we were giving away free money, because we can always give away free money. We can turn that on when we want and when we have enough of the partners to be able to do that. And I think because we actually did the slog of like build accounting software that has a high nps, like you know, that people actually like using like we now have way more optionality to be able to leverage the fintech side of the business.
- [41:12]
Patrick Collison
And when you say free money, do you mean below market loans? Do you mean free payments? Do you have a specific free money? You mean?
- [41:19]
Mackenzie Burnett
Oh yeah, I mean, I mean below market anything. So below market anything. Right. I think that you know, you can give away free payments that actually cost you, you know, cost you money. So it's anything that that like to have kind of negative unit.
- [41:34]
Patrick Collison
This is how a lot of founders fool themselves that they have product market fit. When they don't, are users coming for the product or are they coming from the subsidy? And you can build movie pass and you know, movie aficionados love unlimited free movies, but the economics make it challenging.
- [41:46]
Mackenzie Burnett
Yeah. And I think maybe it would have all worked out if I was willing to do that. I just, I just.
- [41:52]
Patrick Collison
You're old fashioned in that way.
- [41:53]
Mackenzie Burnett
Just old fashioned. I was like, I thought we were supposed to be building for like 70% gross margins and so that's sort of like what I was doing. That was what we ended up building the business around.
- [42:03]
Patrick Collison
You seem unusually passionate about instant money movement compared to most people I know.
- [42:11]
Mackenzie Burnett
90Th percentile in instant money movement.
- [42:14]
Patrick Collison
Is it a reflection of what you're hearing from your customers or.
- [42:17]
Mackenzie Burnett
Yeah, I think it's also a first principle. I kind of the idea of, if I'm actually thinking about solving the problem for what we're trying to solve, it seems like actually a lot of the issue is that money movement is slow and expensive and context less. I think that. So it's instant money movement and high context money movement. And I think there's just a lot of dead money sitting in the economy that's just for some reason in transit.
- [42:43]
Patrick Collison
Between middlemen or too accepting of that.
- [42:46]
Mackenzie Burnett
Yeah. And I think it's something that people are used to. Right. But I think if you think of a check sitting in the mail for like 10, 14 days, I guess maybe it's like it's kind of floating someone's sort of ability to get that. So it's cash flow management. I think that's a legit thing that I think you have to solve for if you're. If you're saying, you know, not everyone actually wants. Not every business wants instant money movement. But I think. But I do think that there's also a sense of, like, having to go through any set of ach. Hops. Doesn't make sense.
- [43:15]
Patrick Collison
Yeah.
- [43:16]
Mackenzie Burnett
I was joking. I was joking with Jackson on our podcast that I. That the takeaway I had from stripe sessions was like instant money moon. I was like, all right, that's going to be a solved problem. What's the next problem we can. We can solve? And I was talking to some stripes afterwards, and they're like, no, it's actually. Actually still really hard. Like, I'm thinking five years in the future, you guys have got this.
- [43:37]
Patrick Collison
Yeah, yeah, no, I think we will make a lot of progress there. It feels like many things are coming together. I'm curious. Well, maybe you can explain briefly how you guys use stripe to set up. My actual question, which is, if you were running stripe, what would you do differently?
- [43:51]
Mackenzie Burnett
I think you guys are doing a great job running stripe. No, no, no. But actually, I wrote a whole document.
- [43:56]
Patrick Collison
I know, I read it.
- [43:59]
Mackenzie Burnett
My sense is that stripe strategy in the long run is to figure out how to transcend the constraints of traditional money movement. Like, how much do you participate in the traditional financial institutions that have been set up, and how much do you transcend that and build something novel? I think a lot of what actually stripe is doing with building its own payments network, somehow building its own deposits network, which I think you'd still need to partner with with banking institutions on do that. So you still are kind of anchored with that. But I think that's actually where stablecoins becomes quite interesting because it's permissionless. And so it's like, who does Stripe need to. I think the way that I would kind of think about it is who does Stripe need to get permission from today in order to exist in the way that Stripe wants to exist? Yeah.
- [44:47]
Patrick Collison
I think the thing that we think is interesting about financial infrastructure is it's by its nature multiplayer. You know, you look at old e commerce systems and you know, ones that even might have been on prem or just the software is very outdated and Shopify came along and built an amazing product and said here's a much better way to manage your e commerce store and manage your inventory and build a nice storefront and everything. And they were able to really, you know, clean up a significant part of that market because you could replace your old e commerce system with Shopify. What's interesting about what we're doing is payments and to a large degree financial services are by their nature multiplayer where every payment is with some counterparty. Right. And even if it's not, even if it's something like where do you store your money or how do you do AP or something like that, there are lots of banks out there that people have their deposits with or people, people wave their hands and say, oh, crypto will obviate this. But when people have money in crypto, they will store it in Coinbase or in Binance or what have you. And so our view is that for whatever job is being done, there will be a whole bunch of other counterparties that we are going to integrate with and work with. And so an interesting part of running a business like Stripe is the you're working with all these partners and you can actually pull things along and make them way more modern. We've done that in a bunch of areas, but it's much more of you're the captain of a sports team as opposed to your Alex Honnold doing solo rock climbing. It's a different kind of sport totally.
- [46:36]
Mackenzie Burnett
But there are players that Stripe is just deeply. Will just be deeply competitive with who will not want to play on your sports team. I think there's a difference between who do you partner with and who do you generally have to run through in order to be able to build a better version of financial infrastructure that is open does actually move on. Modern Rails is actually ultimately net better for everyone is not incentivized by value capture. But I think there's a lot of sense of how can you get more of the ecosystem cheering you on, sort of. It's the transcendence from Stripe as the upstart startup to Stripe as the champion that's pulling everyone into the future.
- [47:16]
Patrick Collison
So maybe what you're saying is Stripe previously provided easy access to the existing financial system and now we've gotten to a point where Stripe can actually have some voice in shaping the and has kind of the scale where we can have some voice in shaping the future financial system. And you're saying that we have to take that seriously, that that is now where we are as opposed to being a passive participant in, I guess this industry exists.
- [47:42]
Mackenzie Burnett
Totally. Yeah. And I think this is the thing that like, I mean, we're at a very different scale of Stripe, but. Than Stripe. But the thing that I have been talking about lately with my team is like the company changes under our feet. It's like, when do you wake up and like, oh, it's like the rules are different actually. Like people are caring about different things than they did before and the voice that we have in the ecosystem is different in these types of things. And I think, I do actually think that Stripe is pretty clearly a leader on a lot of these axes. But I haven't heard as much of the voice in terms of like, what is the vision in which we want to build. I see a future in which there is a vision of the world that I want to exist. And Stripe is uniquely in a position to be able to make that vision true. And I want to sign up for that vision.
- [48:32]
Patrick Collison
Yeah, I think maybe also you've probably picked up on this. Dispositionally, we're just not naturally drawn to pre announcing products before they're anywhere close to. We like to do a thing and hopefully we get it right.
- [48:48]
Mackenzie Burnett
Totally.
- [48:48]
Patrick Collison
And our view is you can't meme your way to a product being good. You put out a version of it that's imperfect and then you gradually iterate on it over time. And so maybe also we've just been a bit too leery of what we think are grandiose statements as a product development methodology.
- [49:04]
Mackenzie Burnett
Yeah, I think that's the piece of what feels missing is a sense of the painting the picture of what the world could look like if Stripe wins.
- [49:14]
Patrick Collison
What is your answer to this question?
- [49:16]
Mackenzie Burnett
What does it look like if we win? I want more people to believe in the American dream. My grandfather believed in it when he immigrated from India to the US and he built up his own he was an entrepreneur, built his own engineering practice, and that was sort of what. What put his five kids through school. My mom believed a version of it when she immigrated when she was 8, here with her family and with my grandfather, and went into public service because she wanted to. She told me a couple years ago it was because she wanted to give back to a country that had served her, had given so much to her. And I'm doing a version of it that. Because I think I went to a school that got me involved in tech. And then I moved to San Francisco and I became familiar with capital markets and I have access now to a version of that. But I see so many of our customers that are trying to live a version of that and are struggling. And I want that to be. I want there to be many different types of American dreams that are possible.
- [50:21]
Patrick Collison
When you say making the American dream accessible, you're in particular talking about where Amber can help is making entrepreneurship and wealth building broadly accessible.
- [50:34]
Mackenzie Burnett
Yeah, broadly accessible. Not just to folks who know how to raise venture capital.
- [50:37]
Patrick Collison
Right. For tech businesses.
- [50:39]
Mackenzie Burnett
Yeah.
- [50:39]
Patrick Collison
Who have you learned from as you've built this business?
- [50:42]
Mackenzie Burnett
I think two of the people who come to mind are. One of them is Josh. Yeah, Josh Kushner at Thrive, who took a really early big bet on me and the vision that we were building for the team. And I think the thing that I really have always really admired about Josh is he's so precise. If you ever talk to Josh, he's so thoughtful in all of his words, but he's enormously ambitious. There's a level of quiet ambition in what he does. And he has, like, he has over the course of even the past couple of years, become much more widely recognized in terms of his ability to put his finger on the macro, I think.
- [51:25]
Patrick Collison
Yeah, I mean, he came from, you know, Thriveless, founded Halango, and now they're one of the leading multi stage firms.
- [51:33]
Mackenzie Burnett
Multi stage firms. Yeah, exactly. So I think the thing that I've learned from him is the sense of, like, you can be quietly ambitious. And that fits my style much better, I think. I think the second person actually that I've learned a lot from is Dylan Field, who just led a big investment in Ambrook. And Dylan is so. He's so able to, like, if you ever, you know, having conversation with Dylan, you know, is one where he can connect the strategic, the tactical and background back up in the same throw. He can go from 40,000ft to 5ft and back up to 40,000 in the same sentence in a way that doesn't create any whiplash and that I think I've actually found that to be extremely rare in both investors and operators to be able to do that.
- [52:16]
Patrick Collison
People are either in the weeds or.
- [52:18]
Mackenzie Burnett
They'Re either weeds are so at the 50,000 view that it's not very helpful. And Dylan is able to go back and forth between the two in a way that I've learned a lot from and I think I've gotten a lot better.
- [52:28]
Patrick Collison
Are at is that dispositional by him or because he's running a public SaaS scaled company?
- [52:35]
Mackenzie Burnett
It's a good question. I've met a lot of founders and operators who can't do it. So I think that probably his ability to build Figma has probably taught him a lot in that. But I also think that there must be something more dispositional about it.
- [52:50]
Patrick Collison
Last question. Why are you building off range?
- [52:54]
Mackenzie Burnett
Your media property offering started out as an experiment called Ambrik Research. It was before we had built anything that we could really show people. And so I wanted a way for two reasons. One, I wanted a way to kind of talk about our brand and put something valuable out there that would be useful. And so we started out by just doing some. We actually published a couple of like very in the early days research articles with academics using some of our early like anonymized data from a lot of the work we were doing. And then it turned into actually this editorial independent media publication that has become wildly popular in its own right. I've always wanted to build some sort of my own version of a research or academic journal. A lot of the research I did when I was in grad school on climate security actually in particular was looking at the co production it was called the co production of actionable science. And it's how do you build how do you create knowledge in a way that involves all the stakeholders and gets them all on board and sort of the knowledge that is created. And so it's not just creating these ivory towers. And I always thought that if I could I wanted to build something that would evoke that type of ethos and off range was my attempt at doing that. And it now is sort of stewarded by a really wonderful editor Jesse and has its sort of own life in that. But in the early days it was really this idea of like I wanted to create actionable science that would be useful for people to be able to make better decisions. Yeah.
- [54:27]
Patrick Collison
What piece you're most proud of? If people want to check it out, why should they go Google?
- [54:31]
Mackenzie Burnett
Well I already said I really love the piece that we wrote. Eve Andrews is the author. Where soil is holy, but climate is seldom mentioned. I love that piece. Yeah. That is like. That's an old book one. It's one of my favorites.
- [54:47]
Patrick Collison
Well, Mackenzie, thank you.
- [54:49]
Mackenzie Burnett
Yes, thank you.