A (4:30)

I'm curious to what extent you think this is like only made possible by short form content. I mean it is remarkable that for all of you know, for all of like the moment that China is having, I don't think anyone besides me in America has seen nud or like any really long like long form Chinese content, be that music, movies, television. Is there something that is like more transmutable? Even if you have a kind of Chinese domestic content ecosystem that is more than happy to just play in its domestic market and isn't like a Japanese or a Korean or even a Taiwanese one that like has this more outward orientation understanding that like in order to make real money you need to be able to sell to Americans and Europeans.

C (5:26)

I would say it's asymmetrically more lean towards the lowbrow content even it's not a short form video. It could be like web novel. It's like addictive web novel about this like perpetual love triangle stories. It could be, it could be a Netflix show, but a Dynasty show, but, but in a sense it's like 40 episodes where like you, you really like dedicate your time to watch it. So like for example, like sound dance. Yeah, of course there are Chinese directors are going to sound dance. But like, do they actually enter the, like the, the elite consciousness? I don't think so. So they're like what I see is disproportionately like, like the, the brain roti and the, the low brow sort of content. I don't know if you have the same impression with me.

B (6:14)

I, I was sort of thinking of it in two separate ways. And one is like the sort of democratization that short form content and that ecosystem lends itself in order to take things to market. And so like, for example, like a, like a movie that goes a Sundance, you can like obviously this, this sounds like silly to say out loud, but there are like so many steps from like conception to execution to even, like even having connections to programmers and festivals to kind of get those things out there. Right. And so the amount of steps it takes in order to take something to market, almost like delays. Delays the effect that you possibly have because you know, I remember back in the day when I worked in indie film, the, the cycle I was taught is that movies have a two year cycle from, from conception to release. And so because everything moves so fast these days, like do the ideas that were conceived of two years ago, do they still, do they still hold today? And like, you know, I think maybe on some kind of broader level they might. But like, it's hard to respond to trends in that kind of two year cycle. So whereas like, you know, you can, you know, you can film, you can film a video and drop it in the span of like 30 minutes.

D (7:22)

I'm, I'm really fascinated by this China maxing moment. As someone who was going to Chongqing in 2017 and being a Sino futurist before it was cool. I would just like to put that on the record. It's a, it's fascinating that it's finally broken through. I. And it actually is kind of nice because for a long time I felt very lonely in that. Like people didn't realize why I was so obsessed with China. They thought it was something weird and kind of obscure. And now everyone is. So the tension between the, the gratification that other people understand now and then, the gatekeeping is real. But it makes me think, remember Hubei Panzai, the stunt drinker? I Interviewed him for Deadspin back in 2019. I feel like he was the. The harbinger or something.

C (8:11)

The OG China influencer. Yes.

B (8:14)

See the guy that would, like, swirl.

A (8:15)

Those big bottles, I think that's the exception almost. That proves the rule. I mean, you are not getting influencers. They are not characters or individuals. It's just like an aesthetic and some videos, like, there's no one. There's no one who seems to be, like, being made a star because of this.

D (8:39)

You don't think he's a star?

C (8:40)

I think there is a case where it's almost like the Western spectacles, like the Western viewers of the. Of his action almost be like, oh, a Chinese normal person could be interesting and as cool as us. It could be also like, they're normal. They're just living their life. They're just living their best lives. Like, I think there is this sentiment that make me feel like Hubei Banzai could be like, the OG China, like, moment influence.

D (9:08)

I totally agree.

C (9:09)

Yeah.

D (9:09)

Yeah.

A (9:10)

But why in this moment are there not others? I mean, can you guys name. There's like the. The Donald Trump guy, but that's sort of.

B (9:18)

Yeah, there's a Trump guy. There's like the. I mean, just. I'm just thinking of, like, the recurring ones. I've seen it. Aren't there those ads for, like, it's like a light. Like a wire light factory or something. And like, the guy.

C (9:30)

Tony.

B (9:31)

Tony, yeah.

D (9:33)

Auto parts Tina.

C (9:34)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

B (9:36)

She's awesome.

C (9:38)

Lady.

D (9:39)

Yeah, there's plenty of influencers. Okay.

A (9:41)

All right, I'll take it back.

B (9:43)

Yeah, yeah, but. But I guess maybe to your guys's point, I guess, like, when I think of, like, influencers in the U. In. In the US and like, the. I guess the things that they're kind of hawking. I guess there is maybe like, this level of desire in the sense, like, I want to be like this person. If you're like, you know, 15 or 16, like, a couple years ago, it's like, I want to be like. Or I'm sorry, like five or six years ago. It's like, I want to be like Addison Rae. Or like, I want to be like, you know, it's like maybe. Maybe there is this level of, like, wanting to mimic a certain kind of lifestyle. Right. I guess. Whereas, I guess, like, you know, I'm not sure if how many people want to genuinely mimic, like, who they just, like, you know, I'm sure there are some people who just, like, love. Who would just love to, like, you know, swirl a bottle and like, you know, have that be their life.

D (10:28)

But it's a skill. Not everyone can do that.

B (10:30)

Exactly. Yeah, they just, they can't. They, they're just not on that level yet. Yeah, but I guess, yeah, like maybe for some of these more specific cases, maybe there isn't that same type of desire. But I know that there is like a, there is like a maybe like desire for something based on like, you know, based on the way this stuff is trending. And so that's kind of the stuff that I've been trying to think about. It's like, like what do, what does the west want when they consume this kind of stuff? If, if anything.

A (11:01)

Yeah, that's a really good question. I, I don't know. I mean, afraid you think?

C (11:07)

Yeah, I think what does Western west wants is a really broad question. Like maybe we can break down what is west. Right. I, I do think demographic wise the people who are obsessing over this, we're living in a very Chinese moment. And the China maxi content are predominantly younger people who don't go to movie theaters. Like, like, you know, a record 2025 is the probably like one of the years that the, the movie ticket office box office doing the worst. Like it's, it's like people are showing less to the movie theaters but getting more addicted to short form videos. Predominantly younger people. And I think the people who are consuming this content are, are younger people. And I think on the other level like you know, China is a cool manufacturer. China can build stuff. China can build high speed railway, China can build cities like Chongqing. China can do drone shows. I think those like visceral city infrastructure wise impact are also hitting the US intellectuals and then this intellectual group are in 2025 doing this collective reckoning, I would say. So I basically say two dominant groups, the basically younger people and the, the, the intellectuals.

B (12:22)

Yeah. I mean that is interesting. And thinking specifically about America in this case, I mean especially thinking about like young people, you know, it's like the ideas that they're being, that they're like living with like, you know, it's. Young people are never going to afford a home. Right. Like that's sort of the narrative that they're, you know, that they're constantly being told. It's like life is a lot harder than it once was. Like, you know, a lot of people probably feel as though the rug has been pulled from underneath them by the generation prior. And so how do you, I guess the story of, you know, I sort of think about how the story of America for younger people is like, it's not necessarily a hopeful one, it's not necessarily an aspirational one. It's like maybe like a couple people might break through the mold, but for the most part, you know, you're, you're like constant. You're almost constantly being told that life is not as good as it once was.

C (13:12)

Yeah.

B (13:12)

And so perhaps that's, that serves as inspiration to look elsewhere. Right. And so, you know, when people, when people see like these like crazy, you know, 20 story cities in Chongqing or like, you know, they see that, you know, they see all this, all these videos about like affordable housing in China and like, you know, the, like they see, you know, I've sort of wondered whether they see this like vision of functionality and stability. And so like that sort of plays as a direct contrast to the life in which they're. They're like living through now, right? Where it's like, you know, even if they may not be promised that like, huge kind of aspirational social mobility that the American dream is kind of espoused over all this time, at least they will kind of, you know, at least, at least they'll like have a place to like hang out and at least they'll get to like, have some fun and like, at least they'll get to, you know, I think a lot about those. I don't know if you guys have seen these videos of like, they're kind of like POV or first person. And it's like a guy like, you know, order like you like order cigarettes from like a delivery service and then he's like pulling the bills out of the, out of the drawer and giving to them. Or like he like, he like goes out to like a, like a one man hot pot and it's like cigarettes, like big beer and like big hop, you know, and it's like.

A (14:26)

Fun.

B (14:27)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It just, it sounds, it sounds like a blast. And like, you know, when I think about what that would cost in America, one, it's like, where can I smoke inside and eat hot pot? Like, how much would that cost?

A (14:38)

Like, it costs enough for you to set up your own restaurant.

B (14:41)

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

A (14:43)

I do think that this kind of like this, this you know, sort of consumer pleasure, abundance vision of China is one which is very much shaped by the great firewall. For all that Aphra is going to sort of see its cracks and holes as well as sh. Politics. So let's do politics. First narrative for China 2020-2022 was this is the country that Brought us Covid. This is the country that has crazy sort of authoritarian lockdowns. Like the last thing, like the last place you wanted to be on the planet in the second half of 2022 was, was in the PRC. And no, no amount of sort of shiny videos could distract from that fact. I think over the course of the past year in particular, it's a bit of a, maybe like a Trump driven thing in that sort of reconciliation with China has entered the Overton window. You've seen really interesting polling where like the like is China America's greatest threat has gone from or like, is China an enemy has gone from like 65% down to like 50, 55% in American and sort of domestic American public opinion and sort of. That layered on the fact that you do not have videos of China walking through slums or like showing poverty in not a sort of like poverty glamorizing way, but in a, you know, the equivalent of like walking through the streets of Philadelphia and seeing lots of people like overdosing on fentanyl. Like, that is not content that gets created or distributed or promoted on these platforms. And if you make it and it goes viral in the, in the west, then like, you will go to jail for having made that. So we are in a bit of a sort of like a rut here. I think another thing we should sort of layer on two more men. The idea that people are sick of Japan, everyone's been there and over it, I think is great. As well as China changing its visa policy, see more folks going over them, doing a really good job of handling some of these big streamers over the course of 2025. And then I think just like the way Chinese cities and traveling is oriented such that, you know, if you are a foreigner who doesn't speak Chinese, like seeing poverty is actually a not straightforward thing. Whereas if you're in the US and kind of just wandering around a city, it is far more likely for you to kind of run into, you know, unfortunate corners of, of American society. So are there other macro trends enabling this sort of like glittering vision of China I've missed? Curious what you guys think of that.

C (17:47)

Yeah, I think there is like almost, Almost you grew out of the innocence of. You can contain China. I think there's definitely some intellectual momentum that China is always the otherness. China is always in a sense like a developing exploitative country. China is in a sense doing good things, but, you know, it's really, really bad. We, we, we definitely don't want to be, be like China or or go to China like, you know, during. During the three years of. Of a horrible Covid. Is. Is the. The basically the mental model about China is. And then there's still this like innocence of America centrality, I guess. But I think 2025, this. This innocence start to. To break. And especially younger Americans don't think China is a rival to be contained. So like the old. The. The old good, like the containment theory doesn't work anymore. I think a lot of young people just simply see China as part of the global landscape. It is a cool country, a part of the world where, you know, the people are working really hard to build the future. I think this kind of acceptance of China almost come effortlessly to the younger generation of Americans especially. I also wrote a piece about this is especially the generation who sort of come to the age after 2008, the financial crash, after Iraq, after January 6, after like or like living through the era where you just simply see US infrastructure can't even build a functional train or build meaningful stuff. If you see your city landscape sort of stays the same 20 years ago, why do you like, why on earth you would feel inspirational about this place, right? So like, in a sense you naturally accept that China is the place seems to be. Be like. Seems to be inspiring. China is the place building the future and, and then, and then like US is in stagnation speaking again to the.

B (19:51)

US and going off of afraid point. I mean, especially I think, you know, in. In Trump too, there is like so much like, volatility and like, instability, you know, just like all around, right? Like, you know, I think about even from. Even from like, just like a manufacturing perspective, right? Like, if I'm like, I don't know if I want to like, build a factory in the US and like, maybe I'm from Asia and I want to send my workers over there. It's like, what are like, is it like a risk to think about that? Like, they might just get randomly detained and deported by ice, like, even if they're like, legally, you know, even if they're allowed to be there, like, just because of the way in which, you know, immigrant like ICE has been moving. Maybe that kind of unpredictability doesn't make America at least like, sort of an appealing place to kind of build stuff if you're like. If you're, you know, coming from the outside. So I wonder if that sort of aids in contributing to this, like, sort of desire for at least like some kind of power that at least, like, is, you know, that at least like, seems Reliable and that like seems like they have at least like the, the contours of a functioning, you know, a functioning society, you know.

A (21:04)

So Lauren, do you think discontent with democracy is part of what's driving Chinese maxing?

D (21:12)

I will say that China is definitely a country where the objective function has always been to bao chi wending to maintain stability. And so if you're feeling that this is an unstable era, then China is definitely the country for you. Because even if there is instability, it'll be suppressed post haste and it won't, you know, make it out, the music won't make it out. And obviously there's trade offs to maximizing stability such as, you know, lack of civil society, et cetera, to say the least. But it's. Yeah, no, I think that's a compelling. I buy that argument. I mean I certainly am more sympathetic to it than I used to be. You know, for example, like the 2000s, the early 2000s saw a lot of urban disorder. San Francisco is just covered in, you know, limping fentanyl addicts. And I'm not crazy about it. And yeah, it does make me a little more sympathetic to not authoritarian governance, but certainly like the just single minded emphasis on preserving order. Although I do wonder, at least when we were in China in the 2010 stored and you would still see beggars, you know, legless beggars, people with horrible skin diseases, people with no legs, et cetera. And I wonder if they're still there or they got removed somehow. Since when we were not really in Beijing.

A (22:36)

I don't, I think that was. Yeah, that was, that was a provincial issue, Lauren.

D (22:40)

Really.

A (22:40)

We dealt with that in the.

D (22:42)

I would see it in Nanjing, Chengdu. I saw it in Beijing, maybe Beijing, they would definitely work the hardest to make sure those people are not around. The indoor smoking thing is also something I'm suspicious of because even when we were there, I feel like it wasn't that cool to smoke indoors, at least in first tier cities. Maybe in the third tier you can still do it. But I. Even in the 2010s, I mean, I.

A (23:06)

Guess just like the sort of like the, like the wild third tier fun.

C (23:12)

That I think that's the whole.

D (23:14)

Yeah, yeah.

A (23:15)

You know, of like the, of like the, like the basketball, like the village basketball games.

B (23:20)

Yeah.

A (23:21)

Soccer games. Like it is. When you're consuming that in a short verm format as opposed to like a documentary, you don't clock the fact that everyone's making fifteen hundred dollars a year. And then. And like that is. And like There are consequences to that in terms of like plumbing and healthcare and like, yes, maybe everyone has a phone, but like there are lots of parts of that life that you wouldn't necessarily aspire to.

D (23:50)

So people's toilets are still a hole in the ground.

A (23:53)

Yeah, so. So the who. Yeah. I just do think there's something unique to the medium that sort of allows what is a, what is a sort of filtered version of Chinese society to be the one that makes it through. And I do, I agree with you, Min. I do think there's kind of some, some wish casting going on which is enabled by both the medium as well as like the fact that there are not like contrarian Chinese voices who are, who are going Viral on, on TikTok or YouTube shorts.

B (24:28)

Well, something, I mean that kind of brings up something I saw the other day where like, if you like sit with these kind of contradictions or even a second, like you would kind of ask the same questions that you guys are asking. Like, I, I saw this kind of montage of like these Chinese circuit court judges just like, you know, like on horses and they have these like crests and it's like, you know, and like, you know, they go around all these villages and like on first, upon first glance, you know, at least my impulse was like, oh, this stuff is sick. It's like 1850, right?

D (24:59)

Yeah, yeah.

A (24:59)

But then like, it's like Lincoln in the 1850s.

B (25:02)

Exactly, right? It's like, why does this guy have to go on a horse? Like, like, what happened to the kind of why is there no like civil infrastructure for these guys to like have like a courthouse or like, you know, so it's like you think about it for like two seconds and you're like, oh, wait a minute, this is not like, this is like, this is a little ridiculous, but like, you know, upon first glance you're like, oh, this guy's on horseback. It's sick. So I feel like that just speaks to the contradictions that you guys are kind of alluding to when you just, when you like think about it for more than a few seconds. But I guess the thing is like people aren't, because that is the nature of short form content, right? You just, you see it, you know, you get your, your visceral reaction and then you, and then you move on.

D (25:42)

So these are both, these videos we see are coming from the tales of experience in China. You know, the extremely to like extremely backwards countryside and then those super shiny first year cities. But there's maybe not as much of a market for Content about being say a civil servant living in a second tier city suburb, satellite city of Shanghai and going out to dinner once a week. So you know, there's probably some selection bias.

C (26:09)

Yeah, yeah. I mean it's just it almost like we're all seeing characters from each other. Like just as the people inside of the Great Firewall, the Chinese short form video consumers, the Chinese Internet users, they predominantly think the US is a place where, you know, you can instantly die just by walking on the street. And it's homeless everywhere. Right. It's like I think each, each side is consuming a very character imagery of, of the other. And then also like I think US China, like just Internet wise people are mutually obsessed with each other, which is interesting. I have been telling people that I think there are roughly two categories of the China content. One is called cool China, one is called real China and the cool China is, if I borrow Kevin Kelly's definition, is this future version of the Chinese nation that produces cool products and have creativity and have this charm and people want to imitate and even want to live in. And I also would argue there is real China which, which, which people in the US don't necessarily genuinely interested in because the, the real China having really ugly economic structures. It's, it's, it's about the young people who are, you know, suffering unemployment just as their US counterparts. There are you know, a lot of like this like ugliness and bitterness like within people's lives. You know, you can say there's feminist backlash against the state, there is a slow dying real estate collapse. There is, you know, a lot of peasants living in countrysides, rural countrysides and older people because they don't have, necessarily have, have care for them, they collectively commit suicides. Like those stories are real. Those stories have been circulating on the Chinese Internet. Even it's a heavily censored one. So I think the real China is a depressing one and it's the one that people, when they are lying on the bed and doom scrolling they would much less want to want to see.

A (28:33)

I think 2015 to 2020, the majority of content that was consumed in America about China was by white people living there. And that has gone away for the most part. I think a lot of those influencers left or just like didn't make it, grew out of it. And there kind of hasn't really been a second generation partially because there are just far fewer foreigners than there were pre Covid. But also I just think like it's been, it's a more uncomfortable space to be in than it was before and sort of having the content now be created by Chinese nationals as opposed to sort of foreigners giving their window into it is an interesting and kind of cool trend to watch interestingly, like revert in the inverse. There are still a ton of Chinese in America making the content that is like the vision to the U.S. i think that's almost like the dominant medium through which, you know, on RedNote or whatnot is like there's a whole influencer class of Chinese making America content for.

C (29:47)

That's true. I think both, like both are true. And then I also think there is a big like consciousness sort of people start to realize it that like there's something called content going overseas. It's just like you can be the content creator like Shein or Temu or you know. Li Ziqi's success during COVID was a big motivation for a lot of video makers in China. Just because Li Ziqi earned so much money just from the YouTube royalty or YouTube revenue share. And people like a lot of people start to realize that if I make really sick content, if I really make really cool content, I can just upload it overseas and make money. And then I think money is a big factor as well. Right. The past year we see a lot of tech bloggers have been uploading their high quality content to YouTube such as He Tongshu HTX Studio. Right. He like now not only just basically moving his content to YouTube but also making original English language content. And I think it is such a big discovery of opportunity. Almost like, you know, like Pop Mart used to see China as its primary market. And then Palmar realized, oh my God, I can sell my stuff to Southeast Asia. Oh my God, my stuff is really popular in the US and Europe. Oh my God, now I'm a global company now. I think it's almost like Pop Mart's life cycle. Like a lot of Chinese content makers are going through this life cycle right now. They're like some content can be so universal, some interesting stuff can just hit people's dopamine just as easy as you're writing Xiaohongshu's algorithm. Like they can just write on X or YouTube or TikTok's algorithm. Yeah. So there's definitely a more trickle down awareness that they can gain a lot of viewers and make money just on overseas content platforms.

D (31:51)

Maybe in the 2010s and earlier it wasn't self evident to the media in American why they should care about China. And so you need someone to kind of mediate for you and introduce it and prime you kind of like, I don't know, like, remember Masterpiece Theater on pbs? You would always have, to this day, I think they have an American actor introducing whatever the British show is because it was just like understood that you need someone to like crime the American for it. Yeah. To hold your hand through it. But I think, you know, toward the end of the 2010s and the 2020s, something broke through and it became evident to the average American that this is something I should care about. And it kind of speaks for itself. The images are so compelling.

A (32:35)

So if we're going to encourage the ChinaTalk listenership to perhaps go beyond their Instagram reels feeds and into the lovely universe of long form Chinese content, what recommendations would you have for them.

B (32:55)

In.

D (32:55)

Terms of long form content? I did see the new Jiajiangka film which in Min, you shouted him out in your great piece. It's called Caught by the Tides. And I went to see it by myself on like a Monday night and I just, I didn't outright weep, but I, I definitely was. Was deeply, deeply moved by it. And that goes for all Jajang films. They're really, they will really get you and so good.

C (33:23)

I'm from.

D (33:25)

So like, are you really?

C (33:27)

Yeah, yeah. So like, like all of a sudden like speaking like Taiyuan dialect becomes cool, right? In the Bay Area because at the end of 2025, my friends and I, we were watching Jia Zhangku's Shanhou Gu Ren, I don't remember the English name, is about this three pieces story from 1999 and 2014 and then the last story is 2025. So at the end of the week. Yeah, yes. Montmaid depart. Yeah. So at the end of 2025, we rewatched the movie because we're technically living in the future.

D (34:00)

This movie. Oh my God.

C (34:03)

Oh my God. People be like, oh my God, you speak Taiwan dialect. That's so cool. And I just like teaching them Tyrian dialects and. And then like, it just feel like I have like possessed a secret skill or something which I'm. I used to think it's. It's like just part of my like unnecessary mental cognitive load.

D (34:26)

Oh my God. He's really done a lot for Shanxi Province. Zhajiangke.

C (34:30)

Yeah, he's a type. He's like a Shanxi boy. Shanxi people have a reputation of doesn't like to leave the province. That's why I feel like Jia Zhangku's gaze to China is like almost like a European director going to places In China be like, oh my God, like you can do this. Oh my God. Like Sichuan people are like that. Like I think has the same like thrill because like Shanxi people never left the province. And when they left the province, almost like an alien touring around China.

B (34:57)

Well, speaking of that movie, I also saw it alone on like a random day and it really, it really stuck with me. But I don't know if I'm allowed to spoil a brief scene from the movie. But like there's this one like it's like towards, it's like towards the end I think they're just like it, they sort of show like one of the guys like making a short form video. Do you like, do you guys remember that? It's like the old guy walking through and like, I don't know, I, it really like stuck with me just in the way in which maybe it like sort of sheds light and perhaps like the artifice of it all that you know, maybe you're not sort of thinking about when you just kind of see, see like a, see a video on your feed or whatever. And I, I thought that that was so like, for some reason that image like stuck with me like, like, you know, it sucked with me, you know, so intensely. And it sort of reminds me of like some of these other videos I see where like there's one video, there's one video in particular where like there was this guy like he's, I think he's got like a selfie stick and he's like skipping around like crowds really kind of deftly and like it looks insane when you see the guy do it and then you like, you, you see another video of someone filming him do it and he's like skipping around on a selfie stick, weaving through these crowds. And like, I don't know, I'm always struck by like when people again like shed light on maybe the context of all or the fact that like, you know, these videos are produced and made and like they are made in a way to capture your attention but like it is almost just a way to make money. Just like any, you know, so many other things are. And so yeah, I was really kind of, I was really kind of struck by that really funny kind of scene in the movie. But yeah, if I, if, if I can give a pretty silly recommendation. I mean, I think I, I mentioned it my piece but last year and like you know, top half of last year, end of 2024, first half of 2025, I was listening to a lot of Jack Zebra. He's a He's a rapper based out of Chengdu. And yeah, he. I think he's like. He's like 21 or, like, younger than 21. But, like, his music is very kind of. It's, for lack of a better term, it's like, pretty cracked out. It's like really, you know, tons. Yeah, it's like, it. It mimics a lot of. I don't know how familiar you guys are with like, maybe like some of like the, like, Drain Gang stuff that comes out of Sweden and like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's like, you know, very, very much kind of influenced by that, but also kind of doing his own. His own separate thing. And he did a tape, I think, with like. He's done some stuff with like, surf gang in New York. But I remember seeing him in December of 2024 in like, a tiny room above a bar in. In Bushwick. And like, it was his first show ever in the US and it was. It was sold. It was like, completely sold out. And like, I was, you know, I was there with a friend of mine. Like, I'm pretty sure we were the oldest people there. And he came on at like 2am in the. He came on at like 2am in the morning. And like, everyone there just kind of knew every word. And like, you know, half of them were people who would wrap all the. Wrap all the words and in their, you know, in their sort of Chinese lyrics. But like, some of them were just like, you know, like non Chinese people who just were like, really into the music. And I sort of. I sort. I felt like I was like witnessing something, you know.

D (38:11)

Yeah.

B (38:12)

And so.

D (38:13)

And that is fascinating.

B (38:14)

Yeah. And then I was, you know, I was. When I would read about his lyrics and stuff, I feel like they talk about a lot of the stuff that Afra, you were mentioning earlier about again, like, you know, disillusionment and just, you know, with the way things are in China, the sort of, like, you know, intense social pressures, you know, placed on young people, like, not a lot of economic opportunity. So in. In some sense, you know, the music's very like, jumpy and kind of kind of insane. But again, like, once. Once you dig into it for a little while, you're like, oh, like, this is actually coming from, you know, a place of, I don't know, like, anxiety about the future. Right. And like, you know, that sort of anxiety as a young person is. You start to realize it is a universal thing. It is not something that is limited to the. To the American imaginations.

D (38:57)

Yeah, that is really Interesting. Especially that. I'm really fascinated to hear about that because I wrote the. I did some of the original coverage about Chengdu hip hop back in the late 2010s, and I published a long profile for. For Vice about the Higher Brothers who were like, all right, yeah, Chengdu rappers. And I remember, you know, something that struck me at the time is, like, they were kind of cool. And I was like, maybe this will be, like, a win for American soft power. Like, people will see that China's cool, but I don't think they ever really took off or, like, in a very organic way in the U.S. yeah, well, because 88 rising.

B (39:34)

Yes. That's. That's. I think that's why I was, like, maybe perhaps a little suspicious, right? Because, like, 88 rising, because they're like basin. They're based in the U.S. right?

D (39:43)

And so, yeah, I was basically for Asian American. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

B (39:47)

So, yeah, yeah. I think I was, like, skeptical.

C (39:51)

Yeah. I mean, like, I'm a big sucker for, like, a lot of the Ada Rising artists, but I think, like, they took a big hit during COVID Right. I just really remember I. I was about to buy a ticket and then Covid hit. Like, I was about to go to both Coachella and Ada Rising concert in Southern California. And that, like, not. Not bad happened because of COVID and then, like, 88 rising. Since then, I never heard anything from them, like, including financial issues.

B (40:19)

I think they do, like. Yeah. Hey, I don't know if they still do that, like, Head in the Clouds thing, but I guess speaking to your. Speaking to your point, I think it's interesting how back then, you know, like, the 88 rising moment in, like, 2017, 2018, it was like Higher Brothers. And I think, like, Rich Brian was also kind of in that. In that mix. And like, the fact that it was like, almost specifically. It felt like it was almost specifically catering to Asian Americans or at least with the way that guy was absolutely something. Yeah. It was like when he was, like, kind of structuring that. That image of that company. Whereas, like, so much of the music now, or at least when I listen to someone like Jack Zebra, it's like, not really tailored towards that audience at all, right? And, like, because maybe, like, you know, it's like, like, he's like. He's not like, you know, when you watch these music videos, it's just like, him and like, a T shirt on, like, a rooftop or something, right? He's not, like, wearing any chains. These aren't. These aren't these sort of like high production value music videos that are aping off of American culture. Right. Like, it almost has more in conversation with, like I said before, like, you know, the kind of, the kind of drain gang stuff than it does with things that I'm seeing in popular American culture, at least. So it's, it's almost interesting how like maybe, maybe the gaze isn't as focused and so at least maybe it's because I'm, you know, a hair wiser now, but maybe like, I'm like, you know, I can approach it with a little more openness and perhaps less skepticism because, you know, those, those like, external kind of factors and sort of perspectives aren't there.

C (41:48)

I have some doubts about like this rapper entering like this like mainstream like music sphere moment. Is, is this another Shang Chi moment? Right? Like, I remember when Shang Chi came out, I was like, oh my God, Marvel is a Chinese superhero. Like, like Liang Cha Wei, Tony Leung is in, in the movie. And then like, is this another like crazy rich Asia moment? Right. I just feel like these moments are like, meaningful. They're like, makes us, makes us happy. But like, is the intention of making such movie actually been realized, you know, or like such, such music just enhanced a certain, certain like, cultural.

B (42:33)

Yeah, well. And I think in this specific case, like, I don't think it'll ever kind of, you know, this is music. It's never going to get radio play. I think it might maybe gain some cachet and maybe like more niche kind of subcultures that I think are sort of very concentrated in New York and like downtown New York. Like, you know, you're not going to see like Jack Zebra and like Gunnar Little Baby on a track together. So. Yeah, but yeah, they don't dream. True dream. Yeah.

A (43:01)

I mean, I do think there is like, when talking about the, you know, is this like a Shangchi moment or whatever? Like the, the. There is a demographic fact that like ethnic Chinese are 1.5% of the US and like, if you want to lump all East Asians together, then we're up to like, I don't know, three, three and a half percent.

C (43:22)

Yeah.

A (43:23)

And so this sort of, in order to have like mass cultural impact, it cannot be content that is catered for that, you know, for a demographic.

C (43:35)

But like. Right, so more like, more like K pop Demon Hunter is like extremely, unapologetically K pop and it's all about K pop, but somehow it's like in the mainstream consciousness. It's on Oscars and everything. I was like, when will be a K pop demon Hunter moment for like Chinese cultural products.

A (43:58)

Yeah. And, and I think that just comes back to like the, the domestic dynamics of the sort of like culture or the domestic Chinese dynamics of like cultural creation. Whereas like you can make an outrageous amount of like, you do not need the U.S. market. And, and so like spending your time like some of those 88 rising people in like traveling to the US or like collaborating with American artists or whatever, it's like probably a waste of time from your like, long term because, you know, maybe there's like a 1 in 100 chance that like you get a radio hit or something, but it's much more likely that sort of investing and like building your brand relationships with Chinese Chinese firms and doing collaborations with other popular Chinese artists is going to lead you to sort of more career longevity than like hoping that you're going to be the first one in decades to like, really, you know, like the idea that you're going to turn into the next Jackie Chan or something is just a, you know, it's a, it's a real long shot.

B (45:03)

Yeah, well, I guess like maybe that also speaks to like the shifting or maybe the, yeah, the changing kind of soft power dynamic, right. Where like, maybe like 30 years ago there was a time when like, you know, if you were like a, if you were a director making action movies in Hong Kong, like John Wu was, it was like it was a big deal for you to come to the US and like make your first kind of, your first kind of move action movie with a, with an American action star. Right. Whereas like, you know, you almost had to rely on, on the kind of like cultural production machine of America in order to like stamp yourself in a certain way. Whereas I guess to your point, maybe that doesn't necessarily hold true anymore and like, because like other places and maybe, and maybe you guys can speak to this maybe like China itself has just developed that kind of production infrastructure where like, you don't, you actually don't. Perhaps you don't need the US to legitimize yourself anymore. Whereas I think 30 years ago in terms of, in terms of at least like cultural production like that, that felt like that was the, that felt like it was the case at least with the way in which those stars over there were coming over to America.

C (46:07)

So not sure. I think people, like general people still have very critical idea about what they call domestic entertainment industry is because Chinese entertainment market used to deeply, deeply tie to Hong Kong, Taiwan, these entertainment industry, but like later it become increasingly more like insular and isolated. So a term Right. Inner entertainment industry or like domestic entertainment industry almost became a bad word. It's like when it comes to like.

B (46:37)

People know the bad word. Oh man.

C (46:39)

Exactly. It's like, it's like, it's like almost like it's like ill. It's like this kind of feeling is because like N Yu has so many, like, unwritten rules about how a star should behave. It should talk about, you know, how much of the patriotic messages you should somehow exert on your social media. Like you are absolutely not free, but. But like you have to like sort of submit, submit yourself to the Ne Yu logic. And yeah, Nei Yu is not a. Is not an interesting place to be. Like, if I were someone like Jackson Wang or I have a little bit of like language ability and a little bit international ambition, I do not want to be in like, there' no good things produced in Ney. Like, yeah, of course Ne Zha is the top grossing film in the movie history. But yeah, as Jordan said, how many people in the west have sung no Dia before? And at the same time, Chloe Zhao's success on Hamnet, he's. I mean, sorry, her. Her appearance on Golden Globe stage, her basically her entire story arc to be this first generation immigrant. And now like acing the. The.

B (47:42)

The.

C (47:42)

The Western like means mainstream entertainment industry has been such an inspiring story. And then people say this is the art. This is like a Chinese director should look like. And then people are reminiscent about the time where An Li is something people want to see as a beacon. Like instead of today. Like Ne Yu is basically the same thing as this basically get trashy, algorithmistic, memetic like and high pressure entertainment industry where a lot of rumors like throwing around like Navy is like not a place for artistic expression.

A (48:23)

It's an interesting question, like, could A24 exist in China? Or like, when will an A24 exist in China? You think it's impossible?

D (48:34)

Oh, no, I think. I think Aphra. I completely agree with Aphra. Domestic media is so tightly controlled and just so kind of turgid and censored. Like there was a time in the 2000 and tens where there were some kind of good dramas coming out because I would watch them. There was a really.

A (48:51)

The thing is there's like one or.

D (48:53)

Two and they got closed in on no, but I think I've heard they've gotten a lot worse. Like there's none that even have any edge now.

A (49:00)

This year there was one. It was, you know, there's like, you can do like police dramas as long as you like Hit the right notes and stuff. I mean, it's not impossible, but I think the sort of the amount of swings that are even being taken is literally like three a year, and then maybe one or one and a half of them will actually work as opposed to the U.S. you know, you have entire film studios and production companies that are, like, making, quote, unquote, interesting things. I would like to close with, like, my hater recommendation or Unrecommendation Be Gone's Resurrection. It was over my head. There were, like, pieces of it that made sense, but I was watching this just. It's like 2 hours and 45 minutes just being like, all right, this director's 36. Like, let me come back when he's 50 and has, like, calmed down a little bit.

C (49:50)

I totally agree with Jordan. I totally agree with Jordan. I feel like a lot of my Western advanced literati friends are like, oh, my God, Efra. Like, I just watched Resurrection. So good. It's like bigan. So poetic. This is like, you know, this Guizhou dialect. Oh, my God. It's like, authentic. But predominantly my, like, Chinese language literati, like, culture elites are like, like, like, please speak and do not dream. Like, yes, you're 36. Like, don't drag us into your, like, immature. Like, like, like wetty dreamy stuff. Like, well, it was very.

A (50:22)

It very much felt like he was making it for a western audience, too. Like, with all of that sort of, like, Western, like, cinema history stuff. And I think the Jackson Yee terrible acting doesn't quite resonate as much if you're not understanding the words and the delivery that's coming out of his mouth. Like, maybe you can get over him sucking more if you don't actually speak Chinese.

C (50:45)

Okay. For a fact. So my podcast was basically applied to be in Cannes, the film festival, last year in May, and unfortunately, my visa got denied. So I didn't go, but all my co hosts went. And Resurrection was basically Cons Film festival set a special award to give to Bi Gan and be like, okay, this is your little award. Please be happy and take it to home. Like, you know, like, cons kind of need China. China kind of need Cons was like. I think cons is, like, basically, like, in a sense, compromising began for. For. For this thing. And then. And at the scene where I think they premiered this movie during Cons at midnight, and all the Chinese film critics, like, hated it, and they'd be like, I, I, I. This movie kept me up till, like, 2:00am for this. Like, there's no way, like, Be gone. Like, you know, just retire like, please. And then like people were angry.

D (51:38)

It's like Chinese ponderous and pretentious too.

C (51:43)

Yeah. So it's really funny by overly excited western friends like telling me how much they like B gun and at the same time, you know, Yi Chen Xi is also like a representative of the patriotic like state approved new face for you know, like Yang Chenxi himself. He has four letter, four characters.

D (52:07)

Pop idol guy.

C (52:09)

Yeah, yeah, he's, he's the big like the main actor in Resurrection but also like he himself as an actor. He would go on like the spring festival gala. Like he, him, his presence basically carries a lot of political messages. He would be like the baby doll for the nei for the domestic baby.

D (52:28)

Doll for the Nayu.

C (52:29)

Yeah, I mean I like him. I really like his sense a bit. I think he's like artistically sensitive. I really like him. But I see him becoming like almost like a artist. Ver of John Emo. Right? John Emo, like in the 90s. Oh my God. Really charmed the, the cons people like really charmed everyone with John Emo's like really original authentic art pieces. But like now like Johnny Mo is this like 70 year old old like state like propagandist but also like trying to express certain artistic pursuit but failed. You know, Like I see Yang Qianxi's like going towards this track inevitably.

B (53:10)

Should I watch Long Day's Journey into Night before. Before getting into. I don't. Okay. I've never seen any begin.

A (53:17)

Just skip Resurrection. I think Long Day's Journey tonight was. It was also kind of pretentious but like there was. It was a better. Yeah, it was a better. There's a lot of Chinese movies again. Give him, give him. I don't know if he'll get there. He might get there, but he needs five, seven more years of like getting the fucking like art school out of him and just like living life.

B (53:46)

Get the art school. I'll just make a banger. Like.

C (53:48)

Yeah, I met him in San Francisco in an event. Like he's very smart and savvy. Like he definitely knows how to sort of like present himself as the, as the artistic.

A (54:02)

Yeah, dude's getting New Yorker profiles.

C (54:04)

Yeah, yeah. I mean like, like B Gun knows his game. Like Bigan knows like what kind of mask he, he, he, he need to wear in what occasion.

D (54:12)

Yeah.

A (54:12)

All right, let's call it here. Oh, we're gonna do 60 seconds on the Knicks because I owe that to myself. Min, how are you feeling?

B (54:22)

You know it was. I, I was feeling really bad maybe a week ago. You know, I'm hoping they turn things around, but, but I feel like especially around late January, mid February, there's always a bit of anxiety in the air before the trade deadline, right. And so you never know who's going to go. And I feel like there's been a lot of different talks, you know, that, you know, Kat's name, Carl Anthony Towns, his name has been floated up. I'm trying to be optimistic and I feel like, honestly, after the All Star break is when, you know, we'll really start to see if they've got what it takes. But, you know, my main worry is that this might be their only year because, you know, it's like the, the east is wide open and they still can't compete. Like, what's going to happen when Tatum comes back? What's going to happen when Halliburton comes back from his, his Achilles injury? Like, so I don't know. What are, what are your thoughts?

A (55:13)

30 second take is, I think coach could have been a lot worse. Right? That was a big risk. They, they took kind of the same thing my Buffalo Bills are doing, firing like a coach that was very good. Um, and so to not have the downside outcome of that has been encouraging. And then, yeah, the NBA is fucking stupid. It's just going to be like injuries that's going to decide playoffs to a not insignificant extent. So there's a weird, like, roulette aspect to all of this, which makes the, like, random games in January and February not resonate all that much more. But we're going to stop this here. Thank you all so much for being a part of trying to talk.