Lily Odinger (4:15)

So I guess my question for you is what is the key to consistently doing great work? I will say in 2025, legacy media companies continue to flounder, and at this point it seems like starting a podcast is the best way to influence the media environment. So what is the key to doing great work in this space and what lessons do you think news media organizations can learn from ChinaTalk's model?

Jordan Schneider (4:34)

I don't know about lessons for news media organizations, but I can just kind of say what we've done, which works is like really just follow our passion and do it with enthusiasm. And it is much easier to do the thing with enthusiasm and life when it is the thing that you are most excited to do at any given, you know, day, week or month. And so that is, you know, there are downsides to that. Like, I do see projects that would take me six months or a year that I'm just not doing because it's our cadence that I do think would be kind of additive to the national conversation. But in terms of sort of putting out content that is interesting and relevant, I think with this sort of like more creator led media stuff, you can tell if the, if the writers or the podcast hosts are into the thing or not. And if they're not, you know, why? Listen, I think like everyone when they come work here is sort of surprised at how much latitude I give them when it terms when it comes to sort of coverage areas. Because I really think that this is, this is the key is like as long as you're sort of sharp and knowledgeable, you get the best work out of folks that they're most passionate about. So I think it shows on the show in the newsletter.

Lily Odinger (6:02)

Okay, in this vein, we have a couple of questions from substack. Ted Foley asks what traits differentiate the Chinatalk team, the people themselves, not the publication, from other substackers writing in a similar policy space.

Jordan Schneider (6:15)

So we do have this like, as Lilly alluded to earlier, like in between existence between the reporter and like think tank policy analyst. And you know, so what that leads us from a sort of staffing from a hiring perspective are like the most policy focused journalist types and the most, you know, interested in like writing and interviewing and being out in the world. Think tank analysts folks. So that is a very tight Venn diagram. There's you know, we, we are layering other sort of selection effects on that of like Mandarin speaking English writing. And that doesn't leave you with a ton of, a ton of options like when you layer on sort of like just like a bar for quality and like enthusiasm and openness to like things adjacent to the Chinatalk worldview. I guess so, yeah. I mean I do think that going forward we could grow this. We're fundraising, we take tax deductible donations. Getting to sort of seven analysts I think would be really exciting. Every day I see stories that we just let pass us by because there isn't, there aren't enough folks here who can sort of take and run at every sort of China AI, China Robotics, China biotech, US China relations story. And the amount of time I need to do my like Ezra Klein cosplay of my own writing and podcasting is limits the sort of management bandwidth that I have. But we can definitely do more, especially given how kind of self directed a lot of the work is in Chinatalk. So if you like what you hear and read on the substack and want more, please, you know, reach out, say hi, I think we got a really special thing going here.

Lily Odinger (8:23)

Let's talk a little bit about China talks, relationships with sponsors. How do you think about that relationship and what kind of sponsorships do you accept and which ones do you reject?

Jordan Schneider (8:34)

Good question. So we've done some corporate sponsorships. I would say three quarters of our funding is kind of nonprofit donate, like more like from foundations. The corporate sponsors I'll do, they're very transparent. So I say it up front like this is brought to you by X. We've done a handful of startups, we've done a little bit of sort of industry organizations who want to have like a particular topic explored. The sort of parameters for that is they tell me the expert and I'm able to ask whatever I want and I get, you know, I Sort of. I don't treat those guests any easily or more or differently than I would otherwise. Those, those are the two general ones which have worked in the past is like sort of spotlight a company or spotlight an issue. I think that type of content probably comprises like less than 5% of what we've put out over the course of the year. It helps pay the bills. And aside from that, we've had a number of philanthropic donors who basically say, like, we like what you're doing. You know, send us four paragraphs at the end of the year. But otherwise there's no kind of like creative control or even back and forth beyond me saying, hey, we're going to cover more about us, China and AI. And they say, okay, great, go have fun.

Lily Odinger (10:06)

Jordan mentioned earlier we now have 65,000 subscribers on Substack, but he didn't mention that we started 2025 with about 40,000 subscribers. So that's, you know, a year of incredible growth. And that growth, in addition to expanding our team, allowed us to expand the, the topics we put content out about, including some niche areas like industrial diamonds, China's influence in Central Asia, Taiwanese World War II veterans, and Chinese tourism in Taiwan's outlying islands. So those are all linked in the show notes, if you missed them. I think they were some of the most fun stories we did all year. Jordan, what kind of new topics do you dream of covering in 2026?

Jordan Schneider (10:40)

Oh, man, look, AI is a big deal and it's just getting started, which I think is it's just getting started and there's somehow still not enough writing about it. Like America plus AI I think, has a surfeit of journalists. We've had lots of books come out. There's lots of substacks covering this thing. China plus AI, it's China Talk. There's like one or two others on Substack. But for the English language world, it is shocking still in 2020, in December 2025, a year after Deep Seek apparently woke up the world that this is like a, a dramatically undercovered story. So, you know, China, there's like a number of different, like China plus AI Buck, right? We've got China plus like government and provincial policy, we've got China plus AI labs, we got China plus chips and like hyperscalers, and we got China plus applications. So, like, how it's going to be used in all different corners of the, of the economy. And in each one of those, like, I could, I could put two people on that full time and, and I mean, I could probably put like five or you probably put like five or six people on it full time and still not kind of reach the.

Lily Odinger (12:02)

Reach.

Jordan Schneider (12:02)

The bottom and, and hit diminishing marginal returns on those topics. So that I think on the China side, from an America perspective, industrial policy, I think we're going to spend more time on. It was a bit of a, A bit of a surprise, I think, just how excited Trump was about all of this, from like the 10% intel deal to all of this critical mineral stuff. I mean, rare earth, like the US China rare earth drama pres. Probably like, made them wake up a little bit. But we are, we are entering a brave new world of, you know, I think the sort of, the brave new world of trade policy is something that the world really clicked themselves into with Liberation Day and all the drama. But just how far and how sort of like effective or ineffective US Industrial policy to sort of combat China as much as it is to do anything else seems to be. Is something that I think we're going to spend more time and resources on. You know, CCP politics is something we've covered like 20, 20% of our energy throughout all of this. I guess we're going to have a new, you know, well, maybe, like, who knows, maybe we'll get a successor announced this year. Like, I'm, I'm, I'm betting against it. But he's getting older and at some point that will be a big story. And I've got a dark horse for you. The dalai Lama is 90 and is he's going to have to reincarnate one day or maybe not. I think he's, like, still on the fence of whether or not he wants to reincarnate. I'm going to do a little Tibetan Buddhism coverage. I think that's been some fun reading for myself, just on the kind of like, religious history side of things over the past few weeks. And, um, with that as a perhaps underappreciated powder keg, something that is worth, is worth an episode or two.

Lily Odinger (14:08)

Okay, let's do some statistics. In 2024, we published 59 podcasts. How many podcasts do you think we published in 2025?

Jordan Schneider (14:16)

I would say like 75. Maybe even 100. I don't know.

Lily Odinger (14:21)

Okay, final answer.

Jordan Schneider (14:23)

87.

Lily Odinger (14:25)

Okay. It is 101 up until and including Joe Wiesenthal. So it'll be 102 by the time this comes out. So. Congratulations. That's incredible.

Jordan Schneider (14:36)

Sorry. Yeah, I mean, I think what we've. Well, first, last year I was on paternity leave for half of It. So we slowed down a bit, but, like, actually I think still published weekly this year, you know, I started two or two and a half new series. So we have Second Breakfast, which is a weekly kind of defense chat I've been really enjoying as I've been spending more time learning about that side of the universe. Overfit, hanging out with Jasmine's son and Nathan Lambert, as well as the, like, very occasional, it seems, transistor radio with the Semianalysis crew and John from Asianometry. So I don't know, I'd be curious, like, taking those out, how many just, like, straight China talk shows I've done. But it's felt manageable. Maybe I'll dial it back more to like 75, 80 just to try to do a little more independent reading and writing on my own. But, I mean, I had a lot of fun.

Lily Odinger (15:46)

Hope you guys, that's the most important thing. Yeah. Okay. What do you think?

Jordan Schneider (15:51)

I think War and Peace is like. Is like 75 hours on audible, and we probably did like 120 hours. So you're moved, Tolstoy. I don't know.

Lily Odinger (16:05)

Awesome. What do you think was our top performing podcast of the year?

Jordan Schneider (16:09)

Oh, I think the top few is the Ezra Klein, Dan Wong, Derek Thompson show. We had a CCP Purges show with John Zinn that seemed to really get some traction. Those are the two that stick out to me as blockbusters. Oh, and I guess, like, Deep Seek was this year, so probably one of the Deep Seek shows.

Lily Odinger (16:31)

Yeah. So Ezra Durick and Dan Wong was number two. The CCP purges show was number 11. Number one was the emergency Pod on Deep Seek with Miles Brundage.

Jordan Schneider (16:44)

Yeah, congrats, Miles.

Lily Odinger (16:46)

Congrats, Miles.

Jordan Schneider (16:47)

What else? Let's round out the top five, Lily, who else do we got?

Lily Odinger (16:49)

All right, number three is Daria Moday about export controls. And number four is another Deep Seek show, the one with Kevin Hsu. And number five is America's R and D Reckoning with Divyan Shkashik and Alex Rubin.

Jordan Schneider (17:04)

Wow. People really care about those poor universities. Good for you guys. That was an important topic. I'm glad that one did well.

Lily Odinger (17:16)

Yeah. Other greatest hits include House of Huawei, a show with Nathan Lambert about sycophancy, and Rush Sochi. Those are all in the top 10.

Jordan Schneider (17:25)

Great.

Lily Odinger (17:26)

Yeah. Who was your favorite podcast guest of 2025?

Jordan Schneider (17:29)

You know, the two that are coming to mind right now were both, like, I think, like, either like, two or three parters. So Joseph Turigian and I guess both co Hosted with John Sein. So Joseph Turigian, who wrote the sejongshun biography. We did like two hours, I guess, two shows. Two shows, maybe like three and a half hours on. We only got to, like, 1988 and then just decided to call it quits. And then Sergey Radchenko, John Sein and I, I think we did two or three shows exploring US, China, Soviet Union, Cold War history from his fantastic behemoth of a book. So those two were fun because they weren't news pegged. I have, like, a conflicted relationship to our emergency pod shows. We did 10 this year, double five. So Trump, I guess, is like, exactly twice as more chaotic as, like, the last year of the Biden administration. And that on the one hand, it's like, oh, wow, like, people need us to explain the news. On the other hand, like, it blows up my day. Like, I'm planning to, like, read about Tibetan Buddhism or, you know, military history or something. And all of a sudden I got to, you know, find a babysitter, cancel my plans, and talk about some export control or trade policy thing. But those, I think, are memorable, too, in that it is fun to sort of process real time, the first and second order implications of news. When you really feel like, I think on the Chinatalk shows, like, we're doing it with the world's top experts, like, at and at the frontier. I remember in the show with Joe Eisenthal, he was like, yeah, like, we record shows and I'm always worried because they come out two days after we record them if they're still going to be relevant. Well, like, I'm editing them real time out as soon as we finish. So, like, you get to hear it 45 minutes after we finish recording. So the kind of contrast between the, like, super fresh, new, like, newsy hot take stuff, as well as these deep dives on, you know, Soviet or Chinese history is the balance that keeps me most excited to. To end up recording 100 shows a day when no, no, no Funder of China talks. I think would, like, necessarily advise that as something like, you know, emotionally or physically sustainable. But anyways, here we are December 26th.

Lily Odinger (20:20)

And who is your dream podcast guest for 2026?

Jordan Schneider (20:25)

Ooh.

Lily Odinger (20:27)

Last year you said it was Jake Sullivan. So we had.

Jordan Schneider (20:31)

Yeah, we had Jake. That was exactly.

Lily Odinger (20:33)

So be careful because they're definitely coming on now.

Jordan Schneider (20:37)

I guess. So this is like my Santa wish or something. We'll start getting presidential candidates. I guess we already had Rom. Those will be interesting in a new challenge for me. I don't I mean, we'll. We'll see. I like, I have a sort of mixed relationship to doing shows with politicians. I think there are aspects of them that can be fun. There are aspects of them that are sort of annoying. And like, prepping for Joseph Turigian by reading his book is way more intellectually stimulating than like prepping by reading, you know, ex Governors book. And like, try to find the four paragraphs about China or technology. So, you know, that'll be a fun arc to follow over the next few years. I'm excited to have some pretty senior military officials on second breakfast. That'll be a kind of different thing. Did we have a Trump administration official on this year? We didn't, but we will this coming year. They were a little busy. They were kind of running around, just getting settled in.

Lily Odinger (21:40)

But we had some from Trump 1 but none from Trump 2 yet.

Jordan Schneider (21:43)

Yeah. So yeah, J.D. anytime, man. Jameson, you're welcome. We made a song for you.

Lily Odinger (21:52)

Okay, let's talk about the substack. So in 2024 we posted 140 articles on substack. This year we posted 176. So some improvement there too. Jordan, do you want to tell the people what our most viewed substack article is?

Jordan Schneider (22:12)

By a wide margin? It was the AI girlfriend's comparison between how they manifest in China and the US So shout out to Zilan Chen for a fantastic piece kind of exploring. I think the headline was why China Makes AI Boyfriend and Boyfriends in America Makes AI Girlfriends Again. Would Brookings or CSIS have written this? I don't think so. Is our AI companions going to be like, an increasingly important part of the, you know, geopolitics and like, relations between states and national power? I could not agree more strongly. So, you know, these, these are the sorts of weird bets that you can take with money and time when you have unrestricted funding and they pay off. I mean, that got like 500,000 views. Grimes talked about it on some podcast. And sort of understanding where your AI girlfriends and boyfriends are made I think is going to be just as important as understanding where your social media networks are made. And, you know, TikTok saga is something we've been following since like, oh my God, 2020. So yeah, I'm really proud of that one and how it came out.

Lily Odinger (23:33)

Do you want to take a guess at what the second most viewed article was this year?

Jordan Schneider (23:37)

I don't know. You tell me.

Lily Odinger (23:39)

Okay. It's not Deep Seek. It is Rickover's Lessons from Charles Yang. Oh, wow, I know one thing that I noticed while doing the data analytics for this end of your podcast is that the best podcasts at converting views into new subscribers are the wonky ones. And that's true across topics. So you know Rickover's lessons, cuda, hbm, PLA Purges, and Rare Earths, all of them. It doesn't matter what we're being wonky about. The people love it. So that's something I really have come to appreciate about our audience. And that Rickover piece is really a great one. If you somehow missed it, shout out to Charles.

Jordan Schneider (24:18)

Yeah, it's funny. I can just imagine people, like big Navy people or Navy adjacent folks being like, oh my God, an incredible piece about Admiral Rickover and industrial policy. Like, how could I miss the subs? How could I not subscribe to the substack that. That. That's putting this sort of thing out? So it kind of makes sense. And I think that's illustrative of the type of work that we do. Both of the articles are the illustrative that the type of work that we do with outside contributors who, you know, we spend a lot of time with to help get their articles in the shape that they need to be in to. To really resonate with our audience.

Lily Odinger (25:00)

I will say the top performing podcast on Substack was the PLA Purges show.

Jordan Schneider (25:08)

Okay.

Lily Odinger (25:08)

So even though I knew that one.

Jordan Schneider (25:10)

I knew that one. People. People. People were into. It was. Yeah, it was like there was.

Lily Odinger (25:15)

People preferred to read rather than listen to.

Jordan Schneider (25:17)

Yeah, it was just. It was bubbling for long enough that, you know, we had to. We had to have a gander at it. And I'm glad John was. Was game.

Lily Odinger (25:27)

Yeah. See, Rumors was also in the top 10 as far as views are concerned, as well as why Chinese elite run to Japan. That one was kind of a dark horse. That's number eight on our view count. Cool. All right. I don't know. Anyway, that just made me appreciate the community and what we're really building here. Do you have any reflections on why certain pieces go viral?

Jordan Schneider (25:54)

I don't know. I mean, I think we're a special outlet to publish in, in that like, we accept all forms and lengths and tones in a way that other policy oriented outlets don't. So that flexibility, I think, allows the writers to sort of do their topics the like, optimal amount of justice in the way that they sort of feel is most right.

Lily Odinger (26:28)

What do you envision Chinatalk will be in five years?

Jordan Schneider (26:31)

Let's say three years, because five seems far. I think over the next three years, this could grow into an organization with one to two dozen folks and maybe some more senior China slash technology analysts who would benefit from the freedom that the ChinaTalk model provides. On the podcast side, I'm just having fun talking about all this stuff and the, the content really follows my interests. So do I expect this to be a 75% Tibetan Buddhism focused show in the next three years? Probably not, but the mix has shifted pretty dramatically since I started this eight years ago and I expect it to kind of shift again. I mean it was initially called China Econ Talk. When I started I was covering debt and the Chinese central bank and FX policy and here I am talking about chips and semiconductors and carriers and frigates. So I expect that mix to continue to evolve as like the world, the world slash. My interests change, but I do feel really thankful and very professionally self actualized and fortunate that I don't. It's not just me anymore, but I am able to help give a team the sort of intellectual freedom to cover the issues that I think are some of the most important in the world in the way that is able to be, in my opinion, the most impactful. So that insofar as in three years from now we can do that to more people on a larger scale with more rigor and maybe do take some of those sort of like bigger multi month swings because we have more resources to devote to stuff. I think that could be really cool.

Lily Odinger (28:40)

Very cool. What are your goals for ChinaTalk in 2026? Maybe you could say your New Year's resolution for the organization.

Jordan Schneider (28:47)

Yeah, let's get to eight. Let's get to a million dollar budget. I think we can do it and I think we can double the team and still not just retain the quality, but improve the quality of our output. So yeah, reach out if you're, if you're 30, if you're 30 minutes into our new year review show and have money to spend on the corporate sponsorship or philanthropic donation side. Yeah, you should reach out. Jordanatalk Media.

Lily Odinger (29:17)

All right, Jordan, what was the best book you read this year?

Jordan Schneider (29:20)

So I'll just do a one I haven't talked about yet on the podcast. Over the past few weeks I've been going through Donald Lopez his Buddhist Scriptures compilation. This is an American scholar who I think decade or so kind of like did his best to pick through what's representative and interesting and publish it in translation about Buddhist holy writing or holy adjacent writing that has been really fun. Like I've read a lot of Christian stuff and Jewish stuff and I kind of like get the like rhythm of it and the worldview of it and there's not. I don't read something and I'm just like, what is this? This is the craziest thing in the world. Like these ideas make no sense to me. Like I have no conception of this anymore. When I do most of my kind of like religious reading, that has not been the case when it comes to diving into these Buddhist scriptures. And um. And so just from a like, like mind expansion perspective of like what human, what humans as a, as a species have like come up with in terms of religion. I mean I love how baroque it is with like the 18 levels of hell and you've got cold hell and warm hell and it's just like different types of it. Reincarnation. Pretty crazy. And just like how, how, how the religion has metastasized in so into so many different directions. So we have like this like Sri Lankan Buddhism, we have the Thai Buddhism and then we have like Chinese Buddhism and Japanese Buddhism and Korean Buddhism and like within all of those countries you have like all these different sects and they all fight and they all have different ideas about like how to be a good Buddhist. So I think, and I think that's been the most unique reading experience for me. Like how does it speak to us China relations? I don't know but it's. I have like done my homework when it comes to Confucianism and Daoism. Back when I was in China, I liked courses on that stuff and read, read the classics there but kind of never like took the Buddhism arc and I guess I'm on that now. So. Um. Yeah, I don't know if I like. It's like a, it's a weird book to recommend but I've been enjoying it and I'd like for. I'd like, I'd like one or two people to talk to with it. So yeah, if you are out there and know who I should interview about Buddhism for trying to talk, reach out.

Lily Odinger (32:03)

Very cool. Who is your top artist and what was your top song from your Spotify wrapped?

Jordan Schneider (32:09)

Oh my God. I mean it's probably like Rafi Baby Beluga but Spotify very generously like didn't put that on there. So I have a Beatles for Sleep playlist that I play and that was the one that made it to the top. I will say another thing. So as you guys know, I used to put all these nice songs at the end of the episode and two months ago Spotify started copyright striking any Episode that had sort of copyright music, which on the one hand I understand on the other hand is kind of annoying. We're not monetizing those songs. But what that has led me to do over the past few months is start to use Suno to generate songs like the models are good enough, where the songs are fun now. And it's a sort of different creative process where before I was just like, okay, we're doing a Japan show. Let me listen through the Japan top 50 and find my favorite song. Now I'm at actually writing lyrics or like writing lyrics with like a Claude prompt or a Kimmy prompt and kind of going back and forth with like the music app to try to make a song that I think is cool. So that's been fun and I think I'll keep doing it because we've had some really remarkable songs come out of it. I remember I did a show, I think it was the end of 2022 with Doug and Dylan at Semianalysis where like we read out some rap that ChatGPT had written about semiconductors. This was like, you know, the OG chat GPT. And to go from. And it was like fine, not great. And to go from that to being able to like AI generate a song that like really sounds like replacement level music is just a remarkable thing of how far we've gotten over the past few years.

Lily Odinger (34:10)

Awesome. Okay, what was the best publication you started reading this year?

Jordan Schneider (34:14)

London Review of Books. Shout out to Dan Wong for pushing me to get a subscription. And I'm into physical stuff. I don't know, I don't think Chinatalk should really have a magazine or anything. But after like childcare commences with my baby having 20 minutes to read a review about some new pinot shaped book, it's just a nice way to start your day.

Lily Odinger (34:45)

What's your New Year's resolution for yourself? We already did for China Talk. But your New Year's resolution for yourself?

Jordan Schneider (34:53)

Write more.

Lily Odinger (34:54)

Write more. Love it.

Jordan Schneider (34:55)

Yeah, we're gonna write more, podcast less, write more. I think that's say no to shows that I don't think we'll be better than a B and write more.

Lily Odinger (35:05)

Awesome.

Jordan Schneider (35:06)

Hold me to that, Lily.

Lily Odinger (35:08)

I will do my best. Before we sign off, this is a reminder to fill out the Chinatalk audience survey. We are here to give the people what they want and what they need. So your feedback is super valuable. The link is in the show notes. Finally, thank you to all the sponsors who supported us in 2025. Shout out to CAPE, the US Japan foundation, the Innovation Alliance Eliat 80,000 Hours, the Hudson Institute center for Defense Concep Technology, 11 Labs and the Tarbell center for AI Journalism for supporting ChinaTalk's mission. And a huge thanks to all of our audience members who listened to sponsored shows or bought tea or transcription services or what have you that is hugely important for funding our research and we appreciate you all so very much.

Jordan Schneider (35:46)

And I'll just close with yeah thanks for listening and engaging. Like the email responses we get back from the articles, the like little comments on Spotify and YouTube they mean a lot of we have a running slack channel of things people say to us. So yeah, we wouldn't be able to do this without an audience. So thank you so much for listening and engaging and here's to a wonderful and content filled 2026.

Jameson Greer (36:25)

My name is Jameson Greer sir I'm your man on trade I've read every tariff schedule that this government has made I've sat across from Brussels, I've stared down Tokyo but I never been more certain about a word I have to say no. I know you love a deal sir and I respect you for it too but there's some things we just can't sell no more no matter what they offer you those H2 hundreds ain't tractors they ain't soybeans they ain't coal they're the keys to every kingdom and the engine of control don't let the chips fall to face ain't tonight we build them in America we gotta hold em tight see Jimin's on the phone says he'll pay us double time but some things ain't for sale sir that's the bottom line Jensen who keeps call his shareholders are blue but I'd rather disappoint Nvidia than lose this race til you know who they'll train up models faster than a coyote runs from rain then turn around and use them building drones and wartime gangs don't let the chips fall to Beijing tonight we build them in America we gotta hold em tight they'll say it's just for data centers mining bitcoin too but we both know that's a lie sir and so do.

Jordan Schneider (38:04)

You.

Jameson Greer (38:06)

Remember when we had the latest Stealing cars and coal we let it slip through diplomats who couldn't save their soul they told us trade was changing said the market sets them free now they're building carriers sir and they're sailing past Taipei and don't let let the chips fall to Beijing tonight Tell them Jameson said no we'll sell them pork and timber we'll sell them planes that fly. But the silicone stays home Sir Till the day I die. Don't let the chips fall to Beijing tonight. We build them in America. We gotta hold them tight. 100 billion parameters ain't worth a single dime when the flag that flies above Sir. Amen.