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Author George Saunders joins Sam to talk about his new book Vigil and why people are so obsessed with turning him into a secular saint (and his childhood role of church guitarist). George explains that even though he’s not on social media he still finds ways to doom scroll, how the current government could have learned empathy if they bothered to read a few books, and how he found inspiration for Vigil without sounding too preachy. They talk about the importance of “vomit drafts” and the process of revisions, how his writing approach is about minimizing his anxiety, the choice to turn on or off some of the voices in your head, early rejection from The New Yorker, and choosing not to get killed just to be a great writer. They explain how they both put their choices up against the deathbed test, and how being compassionate doesn’t always mean being nice.

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