Choiceology with Katy Milkman

Episode Title: A Hero’s Journey: With Guests Ethan Gilsdorf, David Fajgenbaum & Kurt Gray
Release Date: October 21, 2024
Host: Dr. Katy Milkman

Episode Overview

This episode of Choiceology explores the power of storytelling—specifically, how framing our lives as a “hero’s journey” can provide meaning, resilience, and even tools for smarter decision-making. Dr. Katy Milkman shares real-life heroic journeys, including the imagination-powered childhood of Ethan Gilsdorf and the life-or-death odyssey of Dr. David Fajgenbaum. The episode concludes with psychologist Dr. Kurt Gray, whose research demonstrates that viewing one’s life as a hero’s journey can measurably increase one’s sense of purpose and reduce depression, even for ordinary people. Together, these stories and insights illuminate how narrative framing can be a tool for both survival and flourishing.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Storytelling as Empowerment (Ethan Gilsdorf)

[00:10–03:27]

• Dungeons & Dragons as Practice for Life:
  • Ethan relates his childhood habit of playing Dungeons & Dragons (D&D) and how it functioned as a mode of storytelling and self-exploration.
  • Quote: “Telling your own story can be very empowering. It allows you to interpret what happens. Just to center yourself in your own narrative is a very, I think, powerful and important experience to have.” — Ethan Gilsdorf [01:34]
• Coping with Trauma Using Fantasy:
  • As a child coping with his mother’s brain aneurysm and the profound changes it caused, Ethan found solace and psychological tools within D&D.
  • Quote: “I was trying out characters, different versions of myself, even in these fantasy settings.” — Ethan Gilsdorf [02:01]
• Growing Through Adversity:
  • D&D offered a template for Ethan to understand and endure real-world hardships, framing his struggles as adventures and himself as an empowered protagonist.

2. Surviving—And Then Saving Others (David Fajgenbaum)

[04:28–22:12]

• Medical Crisis & Near-Death Experiences:
  • David, a former college football player and med student, suffered a mysterious, life-threatening illness (idiopathic multicentric Castleman disease).
  • His experience included multiple near-death episodes, last rites, and extended hospitalization.
  • Quote: “There’s a point where you just slow your breathing down and you pass away. But I remember hearing [my family] and being like, no, I can. I can do one more breath. ... And all of a sudden, you've now put these breaths together long enough to where maybe you can keep this going.” — David Fajgenbaum [06:49]
• Transforming Suffering into Purpose:
  • With no effective treatments available, David devoted himself to finding a cure—conducting research on his own disease, repurposing existing drugs, and persevering despite repeated failures and relapses.
  • Quote: “I knew that if I didn’t try that there was a zero percent chance, and maybe if I got involved, it was like a one in a million chance...” — David Fajgenbaum [12:51]
• Discovery & Legacy-Building:
  • Ultimately, David’s relentless search identified Sirolimus as a treatment, leading to his remission and survival. He’s now been in remission for 14 years.
  • He founded the Castleman Disease Collaborative Network and EveryCure, channeling his experience toward helping others with rare diseases.
  • Quote: “What I've realized is actually we're all in overtime. ... But living in overtime has helped me to do things that I never thought were possible. And it’s helped me to make so much of this time that I never thought I'd have.” — David Fajgenbaum [20:05]
• Heroic Narrative as Meaning-Making:
  • David’s process of writing his story, reflecting on its chapters, and sharing it with others—through books and talks—helped him extract meaning and encourage resiliency in others.
  • Quote: “You can make a mistake in the first quarter of a game and you can make up for it. But in overtime, the importance of every moment is just so clear, and there’s just such clarity of purpose.” — David Fajgenbaum [20:05]

3. The Science of the “Hero’s Journey” (Dr. Kurt Gray)

[24:21–34:49]

• What is a Hero’s Journey?
  • Adapted from Joseph Campbell’s myth theory, Dr. Gray outlines a structure with seven core elements: protagonist, shift, quest, allies, challenge, transformation, and legacy.
  • Quote: “So your character, you shift your surroundings...you go on a quest, have a goal with allies, and you face a challenge, you transform yourself, and then after you transform yourself, you have a legacy to the world.” — Kurt Gray [24:38]
  • Kurt illustrates using popular stories (e.g., Star Wars, The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe).
• Research: Mapping the Hero’s Journey Increases Meaning
  • Dr. Gray’s studies show that when people view their own lives through the lens of a hero’s journey, they experience greater meaning and purpose—and less depression—regardless of whether their lives contain “epic” events.
  • Quote: “Once you do that and you cohere them together, then you begin to see yourself as a hero. And that makes your life more meaningful and makes it seem more like a kind of epic tale of excitement and meaning, rather than just a series of events that happen to anyone.” — Kurt Gray [27:20]
  • The intervention is called “restorying”: encouraging people to reframe their experiences with the seven elements of the journey.
• Cultural Resonance:
  • The hero’s journey is so powerful because it aligns our stories with cultural ideals of what makes a meaningful life, making our experiences “shine” in a narrative that fits societal expectations.
  • Quote: “Making your life a hero’s journey makes it seem like it resonates with our cultural ideals of what a good life is...” — Kurt Gray [31:41]
• Practical Advice:
  • Simply adopting a “hero on a quest” mindset can bring greater significance to daily life. This doesn’t require dramatic quests—helping others, volunteering, or facing small personal challenges counts.
  • Quote: “It doesn't have to be physically heroic...it could be I'm volunteering, I'm helping out people, I'm building a legacy... Just something where there’s some kind of legacy and allies and challenges.” — Kurt Gray [33:47]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Telling your own story can be very empowering. ... We get to take charge of the story we want to tell.” — Ethan Gilsdorf [01:34]
• “I can do one more breath. ... All of a sudden, you've now put these breaths together long enough to where maybe you can keep this going.” — David Fajgenbaum [06:49]
• “You never want a disease with the term idiopathic in it because idiopathic means we don't know the cause of it.” — David Fajgenbaum [11:06]
• “Making your life a hero’s journey makes it seem like it resonates with our cultural ideals of what a good life is.” — Kurt Gray [31:41]
• “If you are just thinking of yourself more as a hero and a journey, that alone can give you more meaning.” — Kurt Gray [33:47]

Key Timestamps

• [00:10] — Ethan sets the scene: storytelling in Dungeons & Dragons
• [02:12] — Ethan shares trauma and how storytelling aided his coping
• [04:28] — David Fajgenbaum introduces his background and crisis
• [06:49] — David fights for his life, one breath at a time
• [09:49] — David's approach: visualization, support, and perseverance
• [14:23] — Describing the challenge of researching rare disease
• [17:31] — The “sword of Damocles” metaphor and celebrating remission
• [20:05] — “Living in overtime” provides a new perspective
• [24:38] — Kurt Gray explains the seven elements of the Hero’s Journey
• [27:20] — Why seeing yourself as a hero changes how you feel
• [31:41] — The cultural resonance of the hero’s journey
• [33:47] — Practical applications: how to apply a hero’s journey framework to everyday choices

Actionable Takeaways

• Reframe Challenges: Consider interpreting difficulties as opportunities within your personal hero’s journey.
• Deliberate Narrative Construction: Identify pivotal moments, shifts, and allies in your own story, and reflect on legacy.
• Use in Small Ways: You don’t need to have extraordinary challenges—any positive quest can fit this narrative model.
• Resilience Tool: In hard times, perceiving yourself as a protagonist on a quest can increase resilience and sense of meaning.

Final Reflections

The episode demonstrates that understanding and re-authoring the stories of our lives—devoting attention to the roles we play, the quests we pursue, and the meaning we derive—can be a practical and science-backed strategy for not only interpreting our past but for shaping our future decisions and well-being. Whether confronting personal hardship or striving for small, everyday goals, viewing life as a hero’s journey can unlock new reservoirs of strength and satisfaction.

For further reading/listening:

• Chasing My Cure by David Fajgenbaum
• Research and upcoming book by Dr. Kurt Gray: Why We Fight About Morality and Politics
• More from Ethan Gilsdorf and his writing on storytelling and games

(See show notes for links and references.)