Podcast Summary
Podcast: Choiceology with Katy Milkman
Episode: Bonus: A Sit Down With Katy Milkman & Angela Duckworth
Date: October 20, 2025
Host: Katy Milkman
Guest: Angela Duckworth
Episode Overview
In a special bonus episode of Choiceology, Katy Milkman welcomes Angela Duckworth—psychologist, bestselling author of "Grit," and co-director of the Behavior Change for Good Initiative—for a wide-ranging conversation on the science of self control. They explore why self control matters, how it’s measured, the myth of its immutability, strategies to improve it, variability across life domains, the distinction between self control and grit, and actionable advice listeners can apply to foster lasting personal change.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Defining Self Control
[01:36 – 03:29]
- Self control is the “successful resolution of a conflict, an internal conflict where one choice is clearly better and the other nevertheless more attractive.”
- Long-term benefit vs. immediate temptation (e.g., kale salad vs. potato chips, getting out of bed when it’s warm and cozy).
- Not always about long-term consequences; can be seconds or minutes of delayed gratification.
Quote:
“The crux of self control … it’s not always, oh, this will be better for me in 15 years. Sometimes it can be five or 15 seconds. And even then, the delay of gratification … that’s the dilemma of the human condition.”
—Angela Duckworth [02:49]
2. Measuring Self Control
[03:35 – 07:57]
- The marshmallow test (Walter Mischel): kids’ ability to delay gratification predicts academic and social outcomes years later.
- Self control can also be measured via questionnaires, which aggregate self-assessment and observer ratings (e.g., friends, partners).
Quote:
“Questionnaires … are a great way of getting at self control if you ask me.”
—Angela Duckworth [05:22]
- Landmark studies (e.g., Moffitt et al.) show self control predicts life outcomes as strongly as IQ or socioeconomic status.
3. Improving Self Control – It’s Not Fixed
[08:36 – 14:30]
- The popular “fixed trait” myth is countered by research showing self control can be learned.
- Situation modification is a powerful strategy: make the good choices easier and temptations less tempting (out of sight, out of mind).
- Example: In the marshmallow test, kids who can’t see the treat wait twice as long.
Quote:
“The most important discovery about self control is that it can be taught.”
—Angela Duckworth [11:38]
- Strategy applies at any age—physical or cognitive tweaks to your environment can help.
Phone Example:
- Teens who put their phones in another room during big tests have higher GPAs (national Gallup study).
- Creating friction to access temptations boosts self control in daily life (food, tech, even social interactions).
Quote:
“The farther your phone, the higher the GPA.”
—Angela Duckworth [13:04]
4. Self Control Varies by Domain
[14:30 – 20:09]
- Self control isn’t an all-or-nothing trait. People may excel in one domain, struggle in another (e.g., strong at work, weak with food or temper).
- Duckworth’s research found more variability within people across domains than between people overall.
Quote:
“There was so much more variability within a given person across the different domains of their life than there was between people.”
—Angela Duckworth [18:41]
- What matters isn’t stronger self control per se, but where impulses are weaker or stronger.
- Avoiding temptation-laden domains (e.g., alcoholics avoiding bars) is a pragmatic, research-backed strategy.
5. The Origin of Duckworth’s Interest
[20:09 – 22:42]
- Duckworth was drawn to self control while teaching, observing capable students struggle not due to intellect but an inability to delay pleasure for study.
- Her earliest research focused on self control (before grit), confirming its strong influence on student success.
6. Distinguishing Grit from Self Control
[22:42 – 26:47]
- Self control: Winning the moment-to-moment “war” between immediate temptation and wise action.
- Grit: Passion and perseverance for very long-term goals—“an abiding devotion … working at it every day for a very, very long time.”
- Top performers often differ in self control but share an “obsessive devotion” (e.g., Kobe Bryant’s “love letter to basketball”).
Quote:
“Self control is where you have a little war inside yourself … With grit, it’s really about having an abiding devotion to something that is intrinsically motivating and working at it … for a very, very long time.”
—Angela Duckworth [25:46]
7. Changing Your Situation for Grit, Too
[26:47 – 29:20]
- Grit can also be cultivated by changing your situation—specifically, through mentorship and social connection.
- Nearly every gritty individual had a mentor or supportive coach/teacher who inspired and nurtured their passion and perseverance.
- Duckworth credits her high school English teacher for turning her onto writing.
Quote:
“I don’t think I would be a writer if I didn’t have Mr. Carr.”
—Angela Duckworth [28:48]
8. Personal Strategies and Final Advice
[29:20 – 33:10]
- Duckworth programs Alexa to remind her of bedtime for better sleep self control.
- “That situational little hack … is helping me.” [30:53]
- She also applies temptation bundling (Milkman’s research): Pairing fun rewards with harder tasks.
- Big takeaway: Use situation as your ally; don’t rely only on willpower.
Final Takeaway:
- Stop blaming poor outcomes on character flaws; instead, diagnose your situation and adjust it to make self control easier.
Memorable Closing Quote:
“What’s wrong with my situation? Is the task undefined? Do I need more advice? Am I not sleeping enough? … It is a much more productive question because it leads you to solutions.”
—Angela Duckworth [32:13]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- “We are more unlike ourselves than we are unlike other people.”
—Angela Duckworth, paraphrasing Michel de Montaigne [18:46] - “Very wise people … don’t try to use willpower because they know that willpower is fallible.”
—Angela Duckworth [13:37] - “Put yourself in the situations that bring out your best.”
—Angela Duckworth [19:54]
Key Timestamps (MM:SS)
- 01:48 — Definition of self control
- 03:40 — How self control is measured; marshmallow test
- 05:11 — Questionnaires and measuring self control
- 08:54 — Self control as learnable, not fixed
- 13:04 — Relationship between phone distance and GPA
- 15:04 — Variability across life domains
- 18:23 — More variability within people than between
- 22:42 — Distinguishing grit and self control
- 29:43 — Personal hacks: Alexa bedtime cue
- 32:00 — Final advice: Diagnose your situation, not yourself
Takeaways for Listeners
- Self control is a key predictor of life success, as important as IQ or socioeconomic status—but it is not fixed.
- The most effective and overlooked strategy: Change your environment to reduce temptation; don’t just try to “willpower” your way through.
- Individual variability is huge: Know your own “Achilles’ heel” domains and arrange your life accordingly.
- Grit and self control are related but not the same; both can be developed with the right situational supports.
- If you repeatedly fail, stop asking “What’s wrong with me?” and ask, “What’s wrong with my situation?”
Host sign-off:
“There’s no one I enjoy talking with about science more … Let’s do it again.”
—Katy Milkman [33:10]
This episode offers science-backed, actionable insights to help anyone foster smarter choices—by making self control easier, not harder.